I was struck in the other thread about Jesuits and Warriors. http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=38803.msg495588#msg495588 Hards had stated "To build on that, I think they would probably shy away from anything with the word "War" in it. Personally, I love the name Warriors, but I am surprised that a Jesuit University even considered "Warrior" as a nickname because all Jesus preached was peace."
I did this video back in 2005 during the debate, so it's old and cheesy 8 years later, but the point was that Jesuits and Warriors have a long history. The video went a bit viral back then, this was before YouTube and such but it was linked in a number of areas and the Journal Sentinel linked it on their site.
Saint Ignatius Loyola was actually labeled the Catholic Warrior and when he founded the Jesuits he called them the "warriors for Christ". The video shows the warrior references in the bible and to Jesuits in particular. Warriors have a strong association with not only Catholicism, but with Jesuits history in particular.
https://www.youtube.com/v/_4mkJJOEmBw&list=UUMjx6VCvI1pZ69C0yAQt_2g&index=1
Ok....
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2013, 01:23:11 PM
Hards had stated "To build on that, I think they would probably shy away from anything with the word "War" in it. Personally, I love the name Warriors, but I am surprised that a Jesuit University even considered "Warrior" as a nickname because all Jesus preached was peace."
"Hards" may have heard of Loyola, Augustine, and Aquinas but he clearly is not familiar with their works. I am astounded at the hubris of so many.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscular_Christianity
Yawn.
In before the lock. :o
Surreal.
First, why the hell do you keep dredging up this debate Chicos? This is the second thread you have started on the topic in a week...and the first one was locked.
Second, the problem with "Warriors" was always the native imagery that was historically used with it. Not the actually name itself. That is why your Rainbow Warriors thread was misguided and your video with a bunch of Old Testament quote was too.
Third, MU isn't going to change the name. Some say they can't change it back. They won't change it back.
That video went viral? Yeesh, glad cats have come to the rescue.
Nonetheless, excellent points on "Warriors". Maybe we should push for it again... as the last of the "true Warriors" are now nearing 40 years old, we may want to move on it now.
Also, Hards reminds me that some people are something that rhymes with fiberal facko.
Quote from: Jay Bee on May 18, 2013, 08:02:10 AM
That video went viral? Yeesh, glad cats have come to the rescue.
Nonetheless, excellent points on "Warriors". Maybe we should push for it again... as the last of the "true Warriors" are now nearing 40 years old, we may want to move on it now.
Also, Hards reminds me that some people are something that rhymes with fiberal facko.
I am?
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 18, 2013, 07:59:46 AM
Surreal.
First, why the hell do you keep dredging up this debate Chicos? This is the second thread you have started on the topic in a week...and the first one was locked.
Second, the problem with "Warriors" was always the native imagery that was historically used with it. Not the actually name itself. That is why your Rainbow Warriors thread was misguided and your video with a bunch of Old Testament quote was too.
Third, MU isn't going to change the name. Some say they can't change it back. They won't change it back.
I believe the first one was locked because it went into politics
Second, if we started to eliminate threads of things that will never change, then a lot of threads would never happen here.
Third, the problem with Warriors was that people are incapable of being creative
Quote from: Jay Bee on May 18, 2013, 08:02:10 AM
That video went viral? Yeesh, glad cats have come to the rescue.
Nonetheless, excellent points on "Warriors". Maybe we should push for it again... as the last of the "true Warriors" are now nearing 40 years old, we may want to move on it now.
Also, Hards reminds me that some people are something that rhymes with fiberal facko.
As much as videos could go viral back then....having it linked by the Journal Sentinel 8 years ago was kind of cool. I just thought the comment that the Jesuits and Warriors don't mix to be so completely wrong it needed to be addressed. When the founder of the Jesuits was a Warrior and started the Jesuits with the name "New Warriors for Christ", well a little history lesson was in order. Happy to help out a fellow MU alum....the Jesuits are all about education. ;)
Learned something today. Didn't know Jesuits used to be "manly men"
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 18, 2013, 09:20:33 AM
I believe the first one was locked because it went into politics
Second, if we started to eliminate threads of things that will never change, then a lot of threads would never happen here.
Third, the problem with Warriors was that people are incapable of being creative
No Chicos...it isn't a creativity problem. It's an issue that MU may very well have promised not to reinstate it...and even if they could they don't want to.
And I will also say this, when I see dumbass students on television dressed up in corny native american headresses that say "Warriors" on them, it simply sets everything back further.
Quote from: Jay Bee on May 18, 2013, 08:02:10 AM
That video went viral? Yeesh, glad cats have come to the rescue.
Nonetheless, excellent points on "Warriors". Maybe we should push for it again... as the last of the "true Warriors" are now nearing 40 years old, we may want to move on it now.
Also, Hards reminds me that some people are something that rhymes with fiberal facko.
Does closed minded, self-righteous lunatic fringe rhyme with fiberal facko?
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 18, 2013, 10:04:26 AM
And I will also say this, when I see dumbass students on television dressed up in corny native american headresses that say "Warriors" on them, it simply sets everything back further.
I'm picturing Sultan pissed off, writing a letter to television stations... "your damn broadcasters called Marquette the "Warriors" again! They should stop it at once! This sets the nation back several decades. You oughta be ashamed of yourselves!"
I could handle the "Jesuit Warriors" as a nickname. Jesuit Hilltop Warriors.
Quote from: Jay Bee on May 18, 2013, 11:17:41 AM
I'm picturing Sultan pissed off, writing a letter to television stations... "your damn broadcasters called Marquette the "Warriors" again! They should stop it at once! This sets the nation back several decades. You oughta be ashamed of yourselves!"
I could handle the "Jesuit Warriors" as a nickname. Jesuit Hilltop Warriors.
Heh...no I actually would love a return to the Warriors.
It's just that when the students use the native imagery, all it does is reinforce in many people's eyes why we had to drop the name. I meant that it sets the idea of bringing Warriors back further.
I really don't know what I said that leads you two to believe I'm a liberal wacko.
Keefe, the reason I don't bother arguing with you about your politics is because I prefer to follow the rules around here regarding those topics. On the other hand, you like to pontificate to an absent audience. I assure you, I've heard every argument from both sides and I am not going to change my mind because you think you've won an argument in which I wasn't even participating. So go ahead, call me names; pat yourself on the back. Its what you're best at, and you sure have earned it.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 18, 2013, 10:04:26 AM
No Chicos...it isn't a creativity problem. It's an issue that MU may very well have promised not to reinstate it...and even if they could they don't want to.
And I will also say this, when I see dumbass students on television dressed up in corny native american headresses that say "Warriors" on them, it simply sets everything back further.
Yes, it is and remains a creativity problem. Many images for Warriors that are not native American. Lack of creativity and incredible lack of spine. Not surprising based on recent studies, especially those that came out a few days ago from Aarhus.
Quote from: keefe on May 18, 2013, 10:32:40 AM
Does closed minded, self-righteous lunatic fringe rhyme with fiberal facko?
I believe you just described yourself
Many Jesuits in this crowd then..
(http://www.nba.com/dleague/santacruz/photos/050313_SC_460.jpg)
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 18, 2013, 01:18:34 PM
I really don't know what I said that leads you two to believe I'm a liberal wacko.
Keefe, the reason I don't bother arguing with you about your politics is because I prefer to follow the rules around here regarding those topics. On the other hand, you like to pontificate to an absent audience. I assure you, I've heard every argument from both sides and I am not going to change my mind because you think you've won an argument in which I wasn't even participating. So go ahead, call me names; pat yourself on the back. Its what you're best at, and you sure have earned it.
My politics are actually pretty neutral. I have voted for both sides of the aisle at all levels. In terms of winning arguments? Please. Much of what I say is tongue in cheek.
You are a liberal, though. Nothing wrong with that. Diversity is our greatest strength.
I think Marquette went from being the Hilltoppers to the Warriors in the early to mid 50s after the Braves moved from Boston to Milwaukee. It didn't have anything to do with Ignatius Loyola being the Catholic Warrior. It was all about the popularity of the Braves and capitalizing on the "Indian" thing.
The problem is that most people are bought and sold clones of political correctness.
Anybody upset about his group being displayed as a proud image of an institution needs to get a life.
Quote from: WarriorHal on May 18, 2013, 05:00:38 PM
I think Marquette went from being the Hilltoppers to the Warriors in the early to mid 50s after the Braves moved from Boston to Milwaukee. I didn't have anything to do with Ignatius Loyola being the Catholic Warrior. It was all about the popularity of the Braves and capitalizing on the "Indian" thing.
Bingo!
Quote from: keefe on May 18, 2013, 04:28:49 PM
My politics are actually pretty neutral. I have voted for both sides of the aisle at all levels. In terms of winning arguments? Please. Much of what I say is tongue in cheek.
You are a liberal, though. Nothing wrong with that. Diversity is our greatest strength.
I don't deny being a liberal, I'm just not sure that the wacko term applies. :) It also doesn't mean that every view I hold is liberal (though CBB seems to lump me with the typical liberal when it is convenient).
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 19, 2013, 07:13:46 AM
I don't deny being a liberal, I'm just not sure that the wacko term applies. :) It also doesn't mean that every view I hold is liberal (though CBB seems to lump me with the typical liberal when it is convenient).
As you and others do with the other side, I might add.
Quote from: WarriorHal on May 18, 2013, 05:00:38 PM
I think Marquette went from being the Hilltoppers to the Warriors in the early to mid 50s after the Braves moved from Boston to Milwaukee. I didn't have anything to do with Ignatius Loyola being the Catholic Warrior. It was all about the popularity of the Braves and capitalizing on the "Indian" thing.
Yup....but to suggest the Jesuits wouldn't want to have anything to do with Warriors is beyond silly considering their history and that of Catholicism in general.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 19, 2013, 07:13:46 AM
I don't deny being a liberal, I'm just not sure that the wacko term applies. :) It also doesn't mean that every view I hold is liberal (though CBB seems to lump me with the typical liberal when it is convenient).
I am actually rather ecumenical when it comes to both politics and religion. Diversity brings a richness of perspective and if people can be mature about the discourse then the insight can be particularly compelling. The best ecosystems have an abundance of flora and fauna that co-exist in mutual benefit.
America lost a great legislator when Sen. Olympia Snowe, a moderate Republican from Maine, retired from elected politics last year. Snowe cited the "hyper-partisanship" that has made Congress "dysfunctional" as the reason for her decision to not run for re-election. Snowe is the only woman to have served in both houses of Congress and she was an extremely effective facilitator in an increasingly intolerant Senate. And Snowe is equally critical of both major parties, citing the strident partisanship and accelerating radicalization of platform as debilitating to proper governance.
Extremism in pursuit of any objective is not necessarily the most effective course of action.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 19, 2013, 07:57:28 PM
Yup....but to suggest the Jesuits wouldn't want to have anything to do with Warriors is beyond silly considering their history and that of Catholicism in general.
In fact, Loyola created the Society of Jesus as a specific para-military response to the Protestant Reformation. And while the Society played key roles in such abominations as the Spanish Inquisition and the liquidation of the Moors it was a superlative missionary force that evangelized throughout the Catholic colonial world.
The rigor, discipline, and organizational excellence of the Society caused Heinrich Himmler to use it as the model for the SS. Hitler publicly referred to Himmler as his personal Ignatius Loyola.
The Society was always viewed as the most efficient, ruthless, and disciplined order within the Church and was often seen as a threat by both ecclesiastical and secular authorities. Jesuits have been repressed over the years precisely for the latent political power they held. To suggest that the Jesuits have ever been anything but warriors is naïve.
You guys are all missing the point. It has nothing to do with the word warrior itself. The fact is that the Old Testament verses Chicos referenced were written in Hebrew and Jesuit founding documents would have been written in Latin. Warrior is a translation. Of course there has been military imagery and language within Christianity, as there has been in almost every religion around the world.
The point is that "Warriors" in this specific circumstance has direct historic references to imagery that was offensive (I'm sorry but calling Willy Wampum offensive is not being PC, it's calling a spade a spade). It has nothing to do with a lack of creativity. Everyone is aware of the many non offensive uses of Warriors, including Golden State and perhaps even more realistic depictions of Native Americans that have been approved by tribes such as the Florida State Seminoles. The problem is that IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE Warriors is instrincally linked to something else. Keefe you of all people should know that history matters. Marquette cannot claim to have a blank slate and start all over and claim to use Warriors in a non offensive way that acts like the past never happened. People can see through that.
Chicos, I know you are proud of your little slide show, but, let it go.
Quote from: Victor McCormick on May 19, 2013, 09:06:00 PM
You guys are all missing the point. It has nothing to do with the word warrior itself. The fact is that the Old Testament verses Chicos referenced were written in Hebrew and Jesuit founding documents would have been written in Latin. Warrior is a translation. Of course there has been military imagery and language within Christianity, as there has been in almost every religion around the world.
The point is that "Warriors" in this specific circumstance has direct historic references to imagery that was offensive (I'm sorry but calling Willy Wampum offensive is not being PC, it's calling a spade a spade). It has nothing to do with a lack of creativity. Everyone is aware of the many non offensive uses of Warriors, including Golden State and perhaps even more realistic depictions of Native Americans that have been approved by tribes such as the Florida State Seminoles. The problem is that IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE Warriors is instrincally linked to something else. Keefe you of all people should know that history matters. Marquette cannot claim to have a blank slate and start all over and claim to use Warriors in a non offensive way that acts like the past never happened. People can see through that.
Chicos, I know you are proud of your little slide show, but, let it go.
Amen.
The irony here is that some are calling for the return of Warriors in the name of tradition, while ignoring that the
entire tradition is built around Native American imagery, most of it
insulting Native American imagery. That's a key point.
The solution, they say, is to do away with the imagery .... but doing so renders the whole tradition argument moot because the imagery
is the tradition.
There simply is no Warrior tradition at Marquette that is free of that imagery.
Anyhow, I'm fine if MU goes back to Warriors, and I'm fine if they don't. But I don't pretend that it can be done in some fashion that doesn't dredge up the nickname's negative past.
Quote from: Victor McCormick on May 19, 2013, 09:06:00 PM
You guys are all missing the point. It has nothing to do with the word warrior itself. The fact is that the Old Testament verses Chicos referenced were written in Hebrew and Jesuit founding documents would have been written in Latin. Warrior is a translation. Of course there has been military imagery and language within Christianity, as there has been in almost every religion around the world.
The point is that "Warriors" in this specific circumstance has direct historic references to imagery that was offensive (I'm sorry but calling Willy Wampum offensive is not being PC, it's calling a spade a spade). It has nothing to do with a lack of creativity. Everyone is aware of the many non offensive uses of Warriors, including Golden State and perhaps even more realistic depictions of Native Americans that have been approved by tribes such as the Florida State Seminoles. The problem is that IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE Warriors is instrincally linked to something else. Keefe you of all people should know that history matters. Marquette cannot claim to have a blank slate and start all over and claim to use Warriors in a non offensive way that acts like the past never happened. People can see through that.
Chicos, I know you are proud of your little slide show, but, let it go.
Vic,
I am with you on the sins of the past in this case. The Willie Wampum caricature is one of the worst in college sports history. It would be impossible to erase the stigma of such an offensive image.
A parallel case from business would be the demise of the Sambo's restaurant chain. Originally named for the two founders the public made an immediate association with the book, The Story of Little Black Sambo. Ownership embraced the connection and incorporated images from the story into the brand. The chain championed itself as a family destination and reinforced that concept with children's loyalty programs, themed menus, and décor packages that all celebrated Little Black Sambo imagery.
The chain was a runaway success and within 20 years it had 1,200 stores open in all lower 48 states. Beginning in the early 80's the corporation was targeted by the NAACP, SCLC, and numerous other organizations for boycott and legal action, deeming the Sambo images to be racially offensive. The chain renamed itself, sought Chapter 11 protection, etc... but nothing worked to erase the stain of the Sambo imagery. In a perverse irony the chain was a testament to the power of branding, in both a positive then negative way.
In this case, management did everything it could to rebrand itself. But the association with the restaurant and Little Black Sambo was too strong and the public avoided the renamed, redecorated stores with a vengeance. Within 5 years the chain went from 1,200 roof tops to less than 700. The remaining locations were sold to Denny's and a very successful enterprise was brought down within years because of its branding.
As much as we might wish to bring back a reconstituted Warrior, the crude, artless, and boorish Willie Wampum image is still too powerful an image to overcome. Having said which, that does not excuse the University from adopting Golden Eagles. There could hardly have been a more banal and mundane choice. It is not simply clichéd but there could hardly be a more disaffiliated image for the University, its mission, history, location, convictions, values, or associated constituencies. What is shocking is that the University is a community of exquisitely educated members who should have been more than able to rise to this occasion. There performance on this matter, going back to the 1950's is both embarrassing and shameful.
(http://topcollegesonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/e0b346620d7280e531c7967f0a978628.media_.610x455.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKdEicp5IREuZjfZQ2Lei40iIKY3kbsAG0kvB9CMiQz8nVxuyIdw)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQayS0Y-TaSV8dvQSSl9dxt-ykwugMyemTpQ41usrWVq2S19PBb)
(http://www.debito.org/cksmumbo.jpg)
(http://blacklegacyimages.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sambotraymilksyrupset.jpg)
AYDS "weight loss suppression" was not a great branding choice during the 80's either.
Quote from: keefe on May 19, 2013, 08:27:18 PM
America lost a great legislator when Sen. Olympia Snowe, a moderate Republican from Maine, retired from elected politics last year. Snowe cited the "hyper-partisanship" that has made Congress "dysfunctional" as the reason for her decision to not run for re-election. Snowe is the only woman to have served in both houses of Congress and she was an extremely effective facilitator in an increasingly intolerant Senate. And Snowe is equally critical of both major parties, citing the strident partisanship and accelerating radicalization of platform as debilitating to proper governance.
actually, Tommy Thompson's mail it in Senate campaign allowed Tammy Baldwin to become a US Senator after being a Representative from Mad-town for 10-12 years.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 20, 2013, 12:18:00 AM
actually, Tommy Thompson's mail it in Senate campaign allowed Tammy Baldwin to become a US Senator after being a Representative from Mad-town for 10-12 years.
Good catch, Ziggy. I should amend my narrative to say that Sen. Olympia Snowe was the
first woman to serve in both houses of Congress.
I am not familiar with Baldwin. But if she represents Madison she is likely a Wisconsin version of Rep. Jim McDermott. I assume she replaced Sen. Kohl? Kohl is an HBS grad who did well in the commercial world but he is far less accomplished as a politician.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 19, 2013, 07:56:36 PM
As you and others do with the other side, I might add.
example please.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 20, 2013, 12:17:30 AM
AYDS "weight loss suppression" was not a great branding choice during the 80's either.
I never heard of that. Funny, in a dark way. I presume the brand didn't outlast Jim Nabors?
Very timely article from Jim Goad today. The Progressive Glossary:
http://takimag.com/article/the_progressive_glossary_jim_goad/page_2#axzz2TqYKvLlV (http://takimag.com/article/the_progressive_glossary_jim_goad/page_2#axzz2TqYKvLlV)