MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: tower912 on April 29, 2013, 11:52:25 AM
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My hat is tipped to him having the courage to be the first. Best of luck, sir.
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Marginal player on his way out of the league trying to insulate himself from being cut. Now the Wizards are forced to keep him as they are homophobic if they release him.
To keep a job that will pay you hundred of thousands would you too proclaim you're gay to make it politically impossible to release (fire) you? I'll bet a lot of people would.
Wait until multiple (marginal) players in the NFL come out and they too cannot be cut and it affects a GM's ability to fields the team he wants and cost them games.
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Marginal player on his way out of the league trying to insulate himself from being cut. Now the Wizards are forced to keep him as they are homophobic if they release him.
To keep a job that will pay you hundred of thousands would you too proclaim you're gay to make it politically impossible to release (fire) you? I'll bet a lot of people would.
Wait until multiple (marginal) players in the NFL come out and they too cannot be cut and it affects a GM's ability to fields the team he wants and cost them games.
Ridiculous post.
Collins has a degree from Stanford and has made over $30 million in the NBA. You really think he wants to put up with all that will come his way for just a couple hundred thousand dollars on another contract?
Also, you think an NFL GM is going to keep a player that costs his team games (and in turn costs the GM his job!) in order to avoid a not-so-bad PR hit?
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Kudos to Jason for being first. Regardless of your beliefs on the issue, it's impossible not to commend him for his bravery.
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Marginal player on his way out of the league trying to insulate himself from being cut. Now the Wizards are forced to keep him as they are homophobic if they release him.
To keep a job that will pay you hundred of thousands would you too proclaim you're gay to make it politically impossible to release (fire) you? I'll bet a lot of people would.
Wait until multiple (marginal) players in the NFL come out and they too cannot be cut and it affects a GM's ability to fields the team he wants and cost them games.
Besides the reasons MerritsMustache gives, Collins is a free agent. The Wizards don't have to release/fire him.
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Besides the reasons MerritsMustache gives, Collins is a free agent. The Wizards don't have to release/fire him.
Even better ... so if no one signs him the entire league is homophobic. Now the Wizards will come under tremendous pressure to pay an unproductive player.
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Being the first in anything is difficult and requires courage. I don't think he did it for a paycheck - if anything, his decision was made easier because he's at or near the end and his money is already in the bank.
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Doesn't he have twin brother?
Edit: disregard, he does. ESPN just said brother had no clue.
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Marginal player on his way out of the league trying to insulate himself from being cut. Now the Wizards are forced to keep him as they are homophobic if they release him.
To keep a job that will pay you hundred of thousands would you too proclaim you're gay to make it politically impossible to release (fire) you? I'll bet a lot of people would.
Wait until multiple (marginal) players in the NFL come out and they too cannot be cut and it affects a GM's ability to fields the team he wants and cost them games.
I was raised in Jersey. I'm on top of the demographic food chain. I consider myself cynical at best. That said, this may be the C U N T-iest post I've read in some time.
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I think Another could have been more artful in how he wrote that. However, would it surprise anyone either if that card is played when a player is cut in the future? I've seen it played in my industry several times when someone has been terminated. It is what it is, people will play on to certain agendas. Read the latest article about the new cabinet position in the administration as a prime example.....identity politics is a reality and sometimes people will use it for advantage, both financial and political. That should surprise no one, been going on for decades. Unfortunate, but that is the deal.
I look forward to a day when we stop with classifying people in silos and protected classes....but politically people don't want that stuff to go away (too much for them to gain by it) so it will be around long after I am gone from this blue marble. Kudos to Mr. Collins. Sports is one of the last bastions for this....I cover both entertainment and sports industry which is why this is of interest to me. On the entertainment front, (HBO, Showtime, A&E, AMC, etc, etc) this is a big yawn as people have been out for a long time, very open about it. My dealings with the sports properties, obviously a different story because of the "locker room effect" and the stigma that is out there. I look forward to the day when it's all a collective yawn....judging people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin, sexual orientation, gender, etc....but as long as we keep identifying people in silos or protected classes, it will perpetuate itself, for both good and bad reasons.
Kudos MLK. Kudos Jackie Robinson. Etc
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I think Another could have been more artful in how he wrote that. However, would it surprise anyone either if that card is played when a player is cut in the future? I've seen it played in my industry several times when someone has been terminated. It is what it is, people will play on to certain agendas. Read the latest article about the new cabinet position in the administration as a prime example.....identity politics is a reality and sometimes people will use it for advantage, both financial and political. That should surprise no one, been going on for decades. Unfortunate, but that is the deal.
I look forward to a day when we stop with classifying people in silos and protected classes....but politically people don't want that stuff to go away (too much for them to gain by it) so it will be around long after I am gone from this blue marble. Kudos to Mr. Collins. Sports is one of the last bastions for this....I cover both entertainment and sports industry which is why this is of interest to me. On the entertainment front, (HBO, Showtime, A&E, AMC, etc, etc) this is a big yawn as people have been out for a long time, very open about it. My dealings with the sports properties, obviously a different story because of the "locker room effect" and the stigma that is out there. I look forward to the day when it's all a collective yawn....judging people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin, sexual orientation, gender, etc....but as long as we keep identifying people in silos or protected classes, it will perpetuate itself, for both good and bad reasons.
Kudos MLK. Kudos Jackie Robinson. Etc
+1
I've seen it all the time, marginal employees claim they are some protected class or minority and sue or imply discrimination. Certainly this idea has reached New Jersey Golden.
Let's not mistake Jason Collins with Jackie Robinson. Let's wait until a major superstar comes out of the closet. Not guys at the end of the their career or marginal players.
Frankly I could care less about this issue, they are paid to do a job so shut up and do it.
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Until we all look and behave like Waldo, there'll be bigotry and hate.
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I think Another could have been more artful in how he wrote that. However, would it surprise anyone either if that card is played when a player is cut in the future? I've seen it played in my industry several times when someone has been terminated. It is what it is, people will play on to certain agendas. Read the latest article about the new cabinet position in the administration as a prime example.....identity politics is a reality and sometimes people will use it for advantage, both financial and political. That should surprise no one, been going on for decades. Unfortunate, but that is the deal.
I look forward to a day when we stop with classifying people in silos and protected classes....but politically people don't want that stuff to go away (too much for them to gain by it) so it will be around long after I am gone from this blue marble. Kudos to Mr. Collins. Sports is one of the last bastions for this....I cover both entertainment and sports industry which is why this is of interest to me. On the entertainment front, (HBO, Showtime, A&E, AMC, etc, etc) this is a big yawn as people have been out for a long time, very open about it. My dealings with the sports properties, obviously a different story because of the "locker room effect" and the stigma that is out there. I look forward to the day when it's all a collective yawn....judging people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin, sexual orientation, gender, etc....but as long as we keep identifying people in silos or protected classes, it will perpetuate itself, for both good and bad reasons.
Kudos MLK. Kudos Jackie Robinson. Etc
The obvious difference between a pro athlete claiming to have been terminated unfairly and an everyday worker claiming to have been terminated unfairly is that the athlete's production/value is right out there for all the see. If a shortstop hitting .200 with 25 errors is released and claims it's because he's gay, people will mock his claim. If the equivalent of a .200-hitting infielder gets fired from his job as an accountant and claims it's because he's gay, people will fight for him.
Also, the so-called "locker room effect" is not as big of a deal as many people believe. For the most part, athletes don't care if a teammate is straight, gay, bi, whatever. As long as he shows up, works hard and does his job, his teammates could care less about his personal life.
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The obvious difference between a pro athlete claiming to have been terminated unfairly and an everyday worker claiming to have been terminated unfairly is that the athlete's production/value is right out there for all the see. If a shortstop hitting .200 with 25 errors is released and claims it's because he's gay, people will mock his claim. If the equivalent of a .200-hitting infielder gets fired from his job as an accountant and claims it's because he's gay, people will fight for him.
Also, the so-called "locker room effect" is not as big of a deal as many people believe. For the most part, athletes don't care if a teammate is straight, gay, bi, whatever. As long as he shows up, works hard and does his job, his teammates could care less about his personal life.
I think for some people, the locker room effect is pretty damn big. For others, not a big issue.
On the other aspect you mentioned, I think it really comes down to a comparison. Like anything, people will make comparisons...why is such and such .225 SS signed this year but this guy over here at .240 wasn't...oh and he happens to be gay. It will be interesting to watch those arguments, but it will creep into the conversation. It is unavoidable....unfortunately.
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To keep a job that will pay you hundred of thousands would you too proclaim you're gay to make it politically impossible to release (fire) you? I'll bet a lot of people would.
Would you personally proclaim you are gay to gain $500,000 if you already have made 30million?
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Would you personally proclaim you are gay to gain $500,000 if you already have made 30million?
My guess is Mr. Collins will financially benefit over this announcement as some companies will trip over themselves to show how inclusive and diverse they are. Just a hunch, but I say he comes out making a ton of money out of this. I'm sure that was not his intention, but will be a byproduct of it.
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He may end up making more money, but anyone who thinks he did this to make his life easier is nuts.
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He may end up making more money, but anyone who thinks he did this to make his life easier is nuts.
Don't think anyone is saying that
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He may end up making more money, but anyone who thinks he did this to make his life easier is nuts.
Not easier, but don't think there isn't a big list of 'PROs' to go along with the obvious 'CONs'.
When ZFB came out he just got a "we already knew, dude." Collins will be celebrated by many... for his sexual preference. Which is strange, but whatever...
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Would you personally proclaim you are gay to gain $500,000 if you already have made 30million?
Then Why is Jason Collins still playing? If he has enough money as you proclaim, why not retire and be a spokesperson for LBGT groups?
I'm guessing he still wants to play and a big reason is the paycheck. Besides see the 30 for 30 titled "broke." Yes Collins is a Stanford grad but if he is like most of the other players in the NBA, most of that $30 million is now gone.
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Not easier, but don't think there isn't a big list of 'PROs' to go along with the obvious 'CONs'.
When ZFB came out he just got a "we already knew, dude." Collins will be celebrated by many... for his sexual preference. Which is strange, but whatever...
The reason he will be celebrated is because people (probably many here and at our alma mater) are against anything involving his sexual preference and judge him for it. Just the way a big part of our society is today.
Also, to go along with some of the discussion already: http://deadspin.com/why-does-it-matter-if-jason-collins-is-a-bad-pro-bask-484587396 (http://deadspin.com/why-does-it-matter-if-jason-collins-is-a-bad-pro-bask-484587396)
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Then Why is Jason Collins still playing? If he has enough money as you proclaim, why not retire and be a spokesperson for LBGT groups?
I'm guessing he still wants to play and a big reason is the paycheck. Besides see the 30 for 30 titled "broke." Yes Collins is a Stanford grad but if he is like most of the other players in the NBA, most of that $30 million is now gone.
If the guy loves playing basketball, then he probably still wants to play professionally. Same as with Kobe, or KG, or Nash, etc, right?
The question still stands, would you, MU84, personally announce you're gay in Sport Illustrated so you could collect 1/60 of your career earnings for 1 additional year of work?
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Big yawn but I wonder what his twin brother thinks about his coming out
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If the guy loves playing basketball, then he probably still wants to play professionally. Same as with Kobe, or KG, or Nash, etc, right?
The question still stands, would you, MU84, personally announce you're gay in Sport Illustrated so you could collect 1/60 of your career earnings for 1 additional year of work?
The answer is, if the price is right anybody/everybody would do it. I would say the same applies for me. Pay me my price and I'm sure I will SAY I'm gay to collect some bucks.
The problem is their is no way to "prove" you're gay (I should say no way is going to "force" you to "show" that your gay). Just saying it is good enough.
This was a real debating point in the recent gay marriage debate. Can business partners "marry" as a tax dodge? Would they do it? Again, if the price is right sure. How do they prove they are gay?
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Then Why is Jason Collins still playing? If he has enough money as you proclaim, why not retire and be a spokesperson for LBGT groups?
I'm guessing he still wants to play and a big reason is the paycheck. Besides see the 30 for 30 titled "broke." Yes Collins is a Stanford grad but if he is like most of the other players in the NBA, most of that $30 million is now gone.
a) if he's like most NBA players, then he's...
b) if he's like most marginal professional professional athletes, the he's...
In truth, you don't know this person at all. Really, just listen to yourself.
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I gotta tell you, I really hate how cynical the world has become sometimes. It used to be that people who broke barriers had to face real hatred before finally being lauded as heroes. Now they face cynicism. Who cares what his motives were? Who cares if he is a marginal player? Being an openly gay player in professional sports is pretty damn close to groundbreaking considering the comments that were made by that 49ers player just last year. Collins should be celebrated.
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The answer is, if the price is right anybody/everybody would do it. I would say the same applies for me. Pay me my price and I'm sure I will SAY I'm gay to collect some bucks.
The problem is their is no way to "prove" you're gay (I should say no way is going to "force" you to "show" that your gay). Just saying it is good enough.
This was a real debating point in the recent gay marriage debate. Can business partners "marry" as a tax dodge? Would they do it? Again, if the price is right sure. How do they prove they are gay?
My 94 year old grandmother has a more modern view of sexuality than you seem to have.
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The answer is, if the price is right anybody/everybody would do it. I would say the same applies for me. Pay me my price and I'm sure I will SAY I'm gay to collect some bucks.
The problem is their is no way to "prove" you're gay (I should say no way is going to "force" you to "show" that your gay). Just saying it is good enough.
This was a real debating point in the recent gay marriage debate. Can business partners "marry" as a tax dodge? Would they do it? Again, if the price is right sure. How do they prove they are gay?
The price is 1/60 of your lifetime earnings (at 34 years old).
Would you do it?
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The answer is, if the price is right anybody/everybody would do it. I would say the same applies for me. Pay me my price and I'm sure I will SAY I'm gay to collect some bucks.
The problem is their is no way to "prove" you're gay (I should say no way is going to "force" you to "show" that your gay). Just saying it is good enough.
This was a real debating point in the recent gay marriage debate. Can business partners "marry" as a tax dodge? Would they do it? Again, if the price is right sure. How do they prove they are gay?
They can right now if they are a man and a woman. Or don't you think that a man and a woman can be business partners?
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Even better ... so if no one signs him the entire league is homophobic. Now the Wizards will come under tremendous pressure to pay an unproductive player.
There seems to be at least some doubt amongst GMs he'll play next year:
Said one veteran general manager: "I don't think he was going to be in the league next season no matter what. I don't think [sexual orientation] is the issue. I think 'Can he still play?' is the issue."
"The chances are slim," another team executive said. "Only because of skill."
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/57404/will-jason-collins-be-in-nba-next-season
(http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/57404/will-jason-collins-be-in-nba-next-season)
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One of my Chicago buddies thinks his number should be retired across the league in all sports like Jackie R.
To which I said. YOU. CRAZY.
I commend Mr. Collins, but this is not the same. It isn't even in the same time zone IMO.
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Good for him. Its not for a paycheck at all if you still believe that read the SI article that was written. I cant believe that thats even your first thought about this issue that hes only doing it for a paycheck. Thats sickening to me.
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a) if he's like most NBA players, then he's...
b) if he's like most marginal professional professional athletes, the he's...
In truth, you don't know this person at all. Really, just listen to yourself.
Neither do you. You just prefer your made facts about him over minr.
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No matter what one's views on homosexuality are, I think everyone can agree that Jason Collins is much manlier than Derrick Rose.
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Anyone who thinks Jason Collins' life just got easier is nuts. Will he make some money? Probably. Will he become a hero/role model to some? Undoubtedly. But on the other the side of the equation, millions will consider his sexual orientation a "choice" that's an abomination in the eyes of God. His life just got much more complicated and difficult but because of his courage it will get easier and easier for athletes going forward. Major kudos.
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I don't know why anyone cares. Can't say I ever really heard of the guy before today, and he doesnt really mean any more to me today than he did yesteday. I also think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that he did it much more for his post-basketball career than his basketball career. Safe to say that post-basketball career become a far more lucrative and high profile one than it was yesterday after a highly unspectacular NBA career.
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When I heard this news, I thought: "Wow, what a courageous thing to do. He finally got tired of having to live a secret life, and he is the first to have the courage to make a very difficult public statement."
Good thing I could come here to Scoop and read from a few open-minded folks that the only reason Collins did this was for the money and for future opportunities.
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When I heard this news, I thought: "Wow, what a courageous thing to do. He finally got tired of having to live a secret life, and he is the first to have the courage to make a very difficult public statement."
Good thing I could come here to Scoop and read from a few open-minded folks that the only reason Collins did this was for the money and for future opportunities.
I don't know what you are reading, but I don't think a few people said that. I think you might want to re-read.
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Anyone who thinks Jason Collins' life just got easier is nuts. Will he make some money? Probably. Will he become a hero/role model to some? Undoubtedly. But on the other the side of the equation, millions will consider his sexual orientation a "choice" that's an abomination in the eyes of God. His life just got much more complicated and difficult but because of his courage it will get easier and easier for athletes going forward. Major kudos.
For the record, I have several LGBT folks on my team. First thing that came up today in our staff meeting is what is all the fuss about. Maybe it's just because of the industry we are in, but being LGBT is absolutely no big deal. Part of the conversation today was if life will get easier, which is why I noticed your post. In their viewpoint, it will get easier. No longer living a lie, sense of relief, etc, etc. There were some very funny lines that I couldn't fully appreciate since I am not gay, but the improved sex life was mentioned over and over again. We were all having a good chuckle at it. It's funny, I think back and I've been working with open LGBT co-workers for at least 12 years if not longer. Its not even something we think about. It only comes up when we go out as a team and someone comments on the attractiveness of another person or if they bring their significant other to an event.
So I think it actually does matter based on your POV. This announcement in Los Angeles in our industry is a yawner. This same announcement in Tuscaloosa might be seen much differently. Geography, religious affiliations, political traditions of the area, etc, etc all factor into this. So, in fact, life actually can be "easier" or with broader opportunities in some places or industries. In other parts of this country, things could be much more inhospitable, or certain industries.
I think it really depends on a lot of circumstances and not necessarily fair to say anyone who thinks life will get easier is crazy. I literally heard those words from some of my LGBT co-workers the exact opposite based on their own experiences. To each their own, but I value my co-workers opinions very much on this based on what each of them went through over the years.
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+1
I've seen it all the time, marginal employees claim they are some protected class or minority and sue or imply discrimination. Certainly this idea has reached New Jersey Golden.
Let's not mistake Jason Collins with Jackie Robinson. Let's wait until a major superstar comes out of the closet. Not guys at the end of the their career or marginal players.
Frankly I could care less about this issue, they are paid to do a job so shut up and do it.
Many grammar and syntax errors so not totally sure of your ramblings and don't have time now to write much.
However, with regard to the bolded, what are your thoughts on Robbie Rogers?
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Anyone who thinks Jason Collins' life just got easier is nuts. Will he make some money? Probably. Will he become a hero/role model to some? Undoubtedly. But on the other the side of the equation, millions will consider his sexual orientation a "choice" that's an abomination in the eyes of God. His life just got much more complicated and difficult but because of his courage it will get easier and easier for athletes going forward. Major kudos.
+1000
If you read the article, you'll actually read about why he was compelled to come out.
I'll give you a hint: It's not for the money.
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I don't know what you are reading, but I don't think a few people said that. I think you might want to re-read.
Well, I was reading a string of ridiculous douchebaggery by AnotherMU84. To a much lesser extent, there was some wild conjecture about Collins' motives from NavinRJohnson.
I suggest you re-read those comments.
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Well, I was reading a string of ridiculous douchebaggery by AnotherMU84. To a much lesser extent, there was some wild conjecture about Collins' motives from NavinRJohnson.
I suggest you re-read those comments.
Few....three or more. Couple = 2. ;)
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+1000
If you read the article, you'll actually read about why he was compelled to come out.
I'll give you a hint: It's not for the money.
Which article....the Deadspin one was all opinion of the author some I'm not sure which one you mean.
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when I first heard about it I thought, "so what?" Now that it's being debated and second-guessed I think, "so what?".
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For the record, I have several LGBT folks on my team. First thing that came up today in our staff meeting is what is all the fuss about. Maybe it's just because of the industry we are in, but being LGBT is absolutely no big deal. Part of the conversation today was if life will get easier, which is why I noticed your post. In their viewpoint, it will get easier. No longer living a lie, sense of relief, etc, etc. There were some very funny lines that I couldn't fully appreciate since I am not gay, but the improved sex life was mentioned over and over again. We were all having a good chuckle at it. It's funny, I think back and I've been working with open LGBT co-workers for at least 12 years if not longer. Its not even something we think about. It only comes up when we go out as a team and someone comments on the attractiveness of another person or if they bring their significant other to an event.
So I think it actually does matter based on your POV. This announcement in Los Angeles in our industry is a yawner. This same announcement in Tuscaloosa might be seen much differently. Geography, religious affiliations, political traditions of the area, etc, etc all factor into this. So, in fact, life actually can be "easier" or with broader opportunities in some places or industries. In other parts of this country, things could be much more inhospitable, or certain industries.
I think it really depends on a lot of circumstances and not necessarily fair to say anyone who thinks life will get easier is crazy. I literally heard those words from some of my LGBT co-workers the exact opposite based on their own experiences. To each their own, but I value my co-workers opinions very much on this based on what each of them went through over the years.
If this was such a big "yawn" why hasn't it happened before? Your co-workers who think his life will get easier because he'll get more sex should grow up and realize LA and the television industry isn't a microcosm of life in the USA. I'm happy for them that bigotry and hatred no longer inhabit their very small world. The one that Jason Collins competes in is a little more complicated than theirs.
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I understand why this is news and all, but to go a little off topic, this is really blowing Collins' career rep out of proportion. I have seen him called an "NBA Star" in several headlines. Wow. In what world is a guy that averages 4 and 4 considered a star. Yikes.
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If this was such a big "yawn" why hasn't it happened before? Your co-workers who think his life will get easier because he'll get more sex should grow up and realize LA and the television industry isn't a microcosm of life in the USA. I'm happy for them that bigotry and hatred no longer inhabit their very small world. The one that Jason Collins competes in is a little more complicated than theirs.
That's why I said it depends on a lot of circumstances like geography, industry, etc, but to just blanketly say someone is crazy (like you did), is wrong.
It has happened before, it just hasn't happened in the US in the big 4 sports. But it has most certainly happened before. Martina is one example. That was more than 30 years ago for crying out loud....1981.
From some of the comments I heard today, the "yawn" factor seems to be based on the reality of the situation. As one young man said, this is everywhere in society and in sports, what's the big deal. As he also said, are we supposed to believe there aren't LGBT players on the LPGA tour? How about women's softball? Men's figure skating? Gymnastics? How about the NFL? MLB? NHL? Etc,etc. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Human beings like anyone else. That was his response on the yawn factor anyway.
Yes, the world can be a bigoted place, but let's also not make this out to be Jackie Robinson scenario either which some are wanting to do. That belittles what Jackie Robinson and people of color had to go through, which is not on the same planet in comparison. I applaud this young man for coming out. Brave..sure. With some people, he will be looked at poorly, which is unfortunate. There are people on this board that have made many disparaging remarks about gay people, so that shouldn't surprise anyone when it comes up.
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Which article....the Deadspin one was all opinion of the author some I'm not sure which one you mean.
The article itself contains and basically is an essay written by Collins.
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If this was such a big "yawn" why hasn't it happened before?
Maybe because we way overestimate the number of LBGT people in this country and in pro sports their are only a handful?
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The article itself contains and basically is an essay written by Collins.
I guess I don't see it. I'll need some help on this one.
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Kind of a racy article by Collins.
"The relief I felt was a sweet release."
"I still had the same mannerisms and my friends still had my back."
"by dinner that night, he was full of brotherly love."
"my wrists are taped."
"Believe me, I've taken plenty of showers in 12 seasons."
"What happens in the locker room stays in the locker room."
"I've never been an in-your-face kind of guy. All you need to know is that I'm single."
"I'll set a pretty hard pick on him."
PS - I see people using LBGTQ now - have asked what the Q means. It's "queer" but what it means? - have heard different answers from almost each person that's opined.
Collins says that being gay is not a choice. So 100% of gays didn't make the choice to be gay? "sigh"
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Anyone who thinks Jason Collins' life just got easier is nuts.
What backlash is he going to face? Are Wizards fans going to cancel their season tickets? Are TV ratings going to fall? Are his team-mates going to shun him? Is his landlord going to evict him?
The answer is no in all cases. He will not suffer any backlash and he will be praised across the land. Obama has already praised him.
Coming out is the easiest thing to do in America right now. Their is no punishment, just praise and reward. He will probably get a parade.
So, why don't more come out? See my post above, maybe because their are only a small handful more in the closet in pro team sports.
Which brings me to my post at the top. Why did he do it? What we have learned is he is at the end of his career and many NBA experts say he may not get resigned and his career might be over. Earlier I said I was a cynic, I'll let you decide.
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That's why I said it depends on a lot of circumstances like geography, industry, etc, but to just blanketly say someone is crazy (like you did), is wrong.
So the only consequences for your friends and co-workers who came out was more sex because they live and work in a small world that doesn't reflect the bigotry that still exists in this country. Jason Collins has to live in that other, bigger world. Your friends who assume nothing will change for Collins in that bigger world except an improving sex life are myopic, childish and, at least on this point, crazy.
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So the only consequences for your friends and co-workers who came out was more sex because they live and work in a small world that doesn't reflect the bigotry that still exists in this country. Jason Collins has to live in that other, bigger world. Your friends who assume nothing will change for Collins in that bigger world except an improving sex life are myopic, childish and, at least on this point, crazy.
Nope, nor did I say it was. In some cases they lost friends, tough conversations with their parents, etc. But to a person, they all said it made life "easier"...kind of like what Collins himself said today.
Sense of relief. Not living a lie anymore. Complete your own sentences, but you get the idea.
If I were to guess, to each of them it was about the bigger picture of being who they are and not having to play a game of who they are not...thus life became easier. I believe it was you who said that was crazy talk, but that's not necessarily the case. Maybe you meant something different.
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Shouldn't matter and the only reason it's a story is because he is an "active" player. Doubt he plays again, so I don't see why this is a story at all..
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What backlash is he going to face? Are Wizards fans going to cancel their season tickets? Are TV ratings going to fall? Are his team-mates going to shun him? Is his landlord going to evict him?
The answer is no in all cases. He will not suffer any backlash and he will be praised across the land. Obama has already praised him.
Coming out is the easiest thing to do in America right now. Their is no punishment, just praise and reward. He will probably get a parade.
So, why don't more come out? See my post above, maybe because their are only a small handful more in the closet in pro team sports.
Which brings me to my post at the top. Why did he do it? What we have learned is he is at the end of his career and many NBA experts say he may not get resigned and his career might be over. Earlier I said I was a cynic, I'll let you decide.
Again, this is a man who has earned over 30million dollars in his career.
Do you honestly think he is using his sexuality to manipulate the league into giving him another season?
From a logic standpoint, that doesn't make sense. He's going to make very little money (compared to his career earnings), so why come out for the money as you imply?
He does a nice job explaining it in his own words.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/magazine/news/20130429/jason-collins-gay-nba-player/#all
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Kind of a racy article by Collins.
"The relief I felt was a sweet release."
"I still had the same mannerisms and my friends still had my back."
"by dinner that night, he was full of brotherly love."
"my wrists are taped."
"Believe me, I've taken plenty of showers in 12 seasons."
"What happens in the locker room stays in the locker room."
"I've never been an in-your-face kind of guy. All you need to know is that I'm single."
"I'll set a pretty hard pick on him."
Very mature.
PS - I see people using LBGTQ now - have asked what the Q means. It's "queer" but what it means? - have heard different answers from almost each person that's opined.
The Q stands for "questioning".
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Here is a quote from Collin's agent reported by Darren Rovell:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Jason Collins' agent Arn Tellem doesn't think NBA will push Collins on teams, but thinks it will be in a team's best interest to sign him.</p>— darren rovell (@darrenrovell) [url=https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/329040390256730112]April 30, 2013 (http://<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Jason Collins' agent Arn Tellem doesn't think NBA will push Collins on teams, but thinks it will be in a team's best interest to sign him.</p>— darren rovell (@darrenrovell) <a href="https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/329040390256730112">April 30, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>)
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/url]
And if I didn't embed it correctly, the quote was "Jason Collins' agent Arn Tellem doesn't think NBA will push Collins on teams, but thinks it will be in a team's best interest to sign him." Tellem later goes on to say that wasn't the focus of Jason's announcement but it is the reality of the situation. It's entirely possible for him to do this for personal reasons but reaping a monetary benefit for it.
IMO, great for him to do this but the sooner this sort of thing is no longer a big deal the better. At some point we need to stop looking at pieces of groups and pieces of people and just look at people
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Well, I was reading a string of ridiculous douchebaggery by AnotherMU84. To a much lesser extent, there was some wild conjecture about Collins' motives from NavinRJohnson.
I suggest you re-read those comments.
I suggest you do the same. Has his post-basketball career become more high-profile and lucrative, or has it not? The reality is, he went from a guy nobody ever heard of, to someone some people have heard of literally over night, and that's only going to increase in the coming days. However, I suspect the majority of folks are like me, and don't care any more about him now than they did 24 hours ago.
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Maybe my cynicism is well placed ... it's always about money ....
--------------------
Collins Gay Sports Stand Seen Bringing Riches If Interested (1) 2013-04-30 12:54:04.630 GMT
(Updates with comment from Billie Jean King in 45th
paragraph.)
By Scott Soshnick and Mason Levinson
April 30 (Bloomberg) -- If anyone can relate to Jason Collins, it’s Golden State Warriors President Rick Welts, a former National Basketball Association chief marketing officer who says the first openly gay male athlete in a major U.S. team sport can cash in by coming out.
Provided Collins wants to.
“People are going to take a step back and take in what happens over the next few days,” said Welts, 60, who two years ago told the world he was gay in a front-page story in the New York Times. “They’re going to see an amazing rallying around Jason and what he chose to do. From that will flow opportunities. I’m not sure what Jason wants. It may or may not fit in with what he wants to accomplish.”
Collins, a 34-year-old veteran of 12 NBA seasons, made his announcement yesterday in a Sports Illustrated cover story.
“I didn’t set out to be the first openly gay athlete playing in a major American team sport,” Collins said in the story. “But since I am, I’m happy to start the conversation.”
While his name might not be familiar to casual sports fans, being the first openly homosexual player is enough to garner attention from progressive companies seeking to use an athlete endorser, says Bob Witeck, a gay-marketing strategist and corporate consultant whose clients include American Airlines Corp.
Gay Market
Witeck said Collins, a free agent who spent this season with the Boston Celtics and Washington Wizards, stands to reap millions of dollars from speaking engagements and endorsements from companies seeking to capture more of a U.S. lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender adult population whose annual buying power he pegs at almost $800 million.
“Every young, black male who has nothing but a street, hoop and ball wants to be a Jason Collins,” Witeck said in a telephone interview. “Some of those kids who are gay don’t have to deny themselves that chance.”
A product of Stanford University, Collins said he began thinking about coming out during the 2011 NBA lockout and was further motivated by the bombings at the Boston Marathon.
Collins already has a sponsorship contract with Nike Inc., the world’s largest sporting-goods company, whose founder, Phil Knight, said this month that he’d welcome a gay athlete endorser.
“We admire Jason’s courage and are proud that he is a Nike athlete,” Brian Strong, a spokesman for Beaverton, Oregon-based Nike, said in an e-mail. “Nike believes in a level playing field where an athlete’s sexual orientation is not a consideration.”
Unique Choices
When it comes to Nike and marketing, Welts said, the only predictable element is the company’s unpredictability. The Warriors’ president said he doesn’t know what the endorsement will be, but he can guess what it won’t.
“This is not just somebody holding up a product and saying, ‘Buy this,’” Welts said in a telephone interview. “The company will be making a statement about their brand and he will choose them because it’s a message he wants to deliver.”
Welts said his advice to Collins as a marketer is to be selective.
“Choose something that resonated with what I was trying to accomplish,” he said. “It definitely won’t be a ‘Your-name- here’ deal.”
Arn Tellem, Collins’s agent, didn’t immediately respond to a text or message left on his mobile phone seeking comment on the marketing opportunities available to his client.
Past Campaigns
American Airlines, Macy’s Inc., Ikea Group and Amazon.com Inc. are among the companies that have used gay-themed advertising. American created a gay-targeted sales group called the Rainbow Team in the mid-1990s.
The talk on Twitter backed Collins, who has averaged 3.6 points and 3.8 rebounds per game, twice playing in the NBA Finals with the New Jersey Nets.
Jason Kidd, one of his teammates in New Jersey and now a New York Knicks’ point guard; former NBA Most Valuable Players Steve Nash and Kobe Bryant; and the NBA players union executive committee voiced support for Collins via the social media site.
“Jason’s sexuality doesn’t change the fact that he is a great friend and was a great teammate,” Kidd wrote.
The announcement from Collins ends months of speculation over which major-league athlete would be the first to announce he’s gay. Former Baltimore Ravens player Brendon Ayanbadejo, a gay-rights advocate, said this month that he is in talks with football players who are contemplating coming out, and that a joint announcement had been discussed.
No. 98
Collins said his “one small gesture of solidarity” toward the gay community before coming out was to wear the jersey number 98 with the Celtics and Wizards, in memory of the 1998 death of University of Wyoming student Matthew Shepard, who was kidnapped and tortured for his sexual orientation.
Collins said he revealed his sexuality last summer to his twin brother, Jarron, who played in the NBA until 2011.
“He was downright astounded,” said Jason Collins. “He never suspected. So much for twin telepathy.”
Among other athletes who have said they are gay are U.S.
women’s national soccer team midfielder Megan Rapinoe and Brittney Griner, the first pick in the Women’s NBA draft this month.
Mark Elderkin, chief executive officer of the Fort Lauderdale, Florida-based Gay Ad Network, said that sponsors probably are already lined up for Collins.
“If there’s a cover of Sports Illustrated, it didn’t just happen by chance,” he said in a phone interview. “It’s a controlled event. I imagine the sponsors are in the wings being prepared and those deals are in the works.”
White House
Collins’s announcement drew praise from former U.S.
President Bill Clinton and White House press secretary Jay Carney.
“We view that as another example of the progress that has been made,” Carney said, adding that he hadn’t spoken to President Barack Obama about his reaction.
Chad Griffin, president of the Human Rights Campaign, the largest U.S. lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender political organization, said in an e-mailed statement that Collins had “forever changed the face of sports.”
“No longer will prejudice and fear force gay athletes to remain silent about a fundamental part of their lives,” Griffin said. “By coming out and living openly while still an active NBA player, Collins has courageously shown the world that one’s sexual orientation is no longer an impediment to achieving one’s goals, even at the highest levels of professional sports.”
Stern Praise
NBA Commissioner David Stern said in a statement that the Collins brothers have been “exemplary members of the NBA family.”
“Jason has been a widely respected player and teammate throughout his career and we are proud he has assumed the leadership mantle on this very important issue,” Stern said.
The National Hockey League joined with a gay-rights organization this month to fight homophobia in sports.
Collins was chosen by the Houston Rockets with the 18th pick of the 2001 NBA draft and traded that day to the Nets. He played into his seventh season with New Jersey before being traded to the Memphis Grizzlies. He’s also had stints with the Minnesota Timberwolves and Atlanta Hawks.
Wizards President Ernie Grunfeld said his team is proud of Collins.
“He has been a leader on and off the court,” Grunfeld said in a statement. “Those qualities will continue to serve him both as a player and as a positive role model for others of all sexual orientation.”
Playing Opportunity
Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban has said he’d be proud to have the first gay player on his team. The billionaire didn’t immediately respond to an e-mail seeking comment on whether he’s interested in adding Collins.
Welts said whether Collins plays in the NBA next season will be decided on his statistics, not his sexual preference.
“If there’s a GM and coach that think he can help their team, he’ll be on a roster,” Welts said.
Witeck said Collins’s disclosure would probably attract more contract offers from clubs.
“There are teams out there that may view him as a higher value property and desire that he bring the fan base and interest to their team,” Witeck said.
Navratilova Reaction
Today’s athletes have opportunities that weren’t available to openly gay tennis players Billie Jean King and Martina Navratilova, now a fitness ambassador for the American Association of Retired Persons who said coming out cost her at least $10 million in endorsements. Navratilova, winner of 18 Grand Slam tennis singles championships, revealed her sexual orientation at the height of her career.
“You are a brave man,” Navratilova said yesterday about Collins in a Twitter post. “1981 was the year for me-2013 is the year for you:).”
King, 69, said in an interview in Atlanta yesterday that Collins would pick up sponsorships from his announcement. She said her own endorsements “disappeared overnight” when she was identified as gay in a 1981 lawsuit filed by a former girlfriend.
“It was a cost I can’t equate in money,” said King, winner of 39 Grand Slam titles in singles, doubles and mixed doubles. “But the most important thing is to be free and live your truth.”
Witeck said a gay athlete makes most sense as an endorser for a company in the beverage, automotive, financial or technology fields. They might all be calling.
“He seems to be a very level-headed, smart, well-educated, full person,” Jim Andrews, senior vice president of content strategy at IEG, a Chicago-based sponsorship consultant, said in an interview. “I’m sure his representatives are fielding a lot of calls, and will be fielding a lot of calls and e-mails in the next few weeks.”
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For the record, I have several LGBT folks on my team. First thing that came up today in our staff meeting is what is all the fuss about. Maybe it's just because of the industry we are in, but being LGBT is absolutely no big deal. Part of the conversation today was if life will get easier, which is why I noticed your post. In their viewpoint, it will get easier. No longer living a lie, sense of relief, etc, etc. There were some very funny lines that I couldn't fully appreciate since I am not gay, but the improved sex life was mentioned over and over again. We were all having a good chuckle at it. It's funny, I think back and I've been working with open LGBT co-workers for at least 12 years if not longer. Its not even something we think about. It only comes up when we go out as a team and someone comments on the attractiveness of another person or if they bring their significant other to an event.
So I think it actually does matter based on your POV. This announcement in Los Angeles in our industry is a yawner. This same announcement in Tuscaloosa might be seen much differently. Geography, religious affiliations, political traditions of the area, etc, etc all factor into this. So, in fact, life actually can be "easier" or with broader opportunities in some places or industries. In other parts of this country, things could be much more inhospitable, or certain industries.
I think it really depends on a lot of circumstances and not necessarily fair to say anyone who thinks life will get easier is crazy. I literally heard those words from some of my LGBT co-workers the exact opposite based on their own experiences. To each their own, but I value my co-workers opinions very much on this based on what each of them went through over the years.
Chicos...I hear where you are coming from. I work on a college campus so you really can't swing a dead cat without hitting a LGBT member.
But this is why it is a big deal.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000133011/article/chris-culliver-wouldnt-accept-openly-gay-49ers-player
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2766213
I could find more too.
To me, this is groundbreaking because of the industry he works in. And frankly it is a sad reflection in society these days that it *is* groundbreaking...but that doesn't take away from some of the courageous aspects of it.
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Maybe my cynicism is well placed ... it's always about money ....
No. It isn't. Quotes from third parties selected to back your point don't prove anything.
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The answer is, if the price is right anybody/everybody would do it. I would say the same applies for me. Pay me my price and I'm sure I will SAY I'm gay to collect some bucks.
The problem is their is no way to "prove" you're gay (I should say no way is going to "force" you to "show" that your gay). Just saying it is good enough.
This was a real debating point in the recent gay marriage debate. Can business partners "marry" as a tax dodge? Would they do it? Again, if the price is right sure. How do they prove they are gay?
Do you want them to have anal sex in front of a judge or something?
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This story is everywhere. I had to turn off Mike and Mike this morning. Why can't people keep their personal lives to themselves? Respect for all is important, but the "movement" uses stories like this as a promotion tool. Watching my six kids go through school ... I'm now seeing some really confused kids walking the halls. It's getting to the point where if a kid goes a few months without a date he starts to wonder if he might be gay. And, other kids say they are gay because it's almost a fad now. There are some leaders who want to grow the movement, and stories like this help to do that among these confused adolescents, and the media is happy to oblige.
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Chicos...I hear where you are coming from. I work on a college campus so you really can't swing a dead cat without hitting a LGBT member.
But this is why it is a big deal.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000133011/article/chris-culliver-wouldnt-accept-openly-gay-49ers-player
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2766213
I could find more too.
To me, this is groundbreaking because of the industry he works in. And frankly it is a sad reflection in society these days that it *is* groundbreaking...but that doesn't take away from some of the courageous aspects of it.
Yeah, I get it and I certainly get why the media will make this close to the second coming of Christ, but I guess that's where it falls apart for me. The Jackie Robinson comparisons...yikes...they are doing a great disservice to Collins and a HUGE disservice to the African American community and Mr. Robinson in particular with these absurd comparisons.
For some, a very big deal. To me and others, especially out in my neck of the woods, this is a gigantic yawn. There are gay people in society, there will be gay people playing sports.
And yes, I do think he will be rewarded a LOT of money for this....I'm not a cynic on this to say that's why he did it, but he will do very well as a by product of his announcement.
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For some, a very big deal. To me and others, especially out in my neck of the woods, this is a gigantic yawn. There are gay people in society, there will be gay people playing sports.
You clearly are not aware of this, Chicos, but not everything is about you.
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Very mature.
Hypocrisy!
The Q stands for "questioning".
A few people have told me this, others (most) have said it's queer. Still others say it's BOTH. So strange.
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Collins will soon be at the White House being praised. He says he doesn't want to be labeled, but largely talks about the gay "community" and wanting to "support the cause"... it's difficult to guess what all his reasons and angles are and at the end of the day I suppose I don't care all that much.
Many pro's for him stamping himself with a label for the public.
Odd world we live in.
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This story is everywhere. I had to turn off Mike and Mike this morning. Why can't people keep their personal lives to themselves? Respect for all is important, but the "movement" uses stories like this as a promotion tool. Watching my six kids go through school ... I'm now seeing some really confused kids walking the halls. It's getting to the point where if a kid goes a few months without a date he starts to wonder if he might be gay. And, other kids say they are gay because it's almost a fad now. There are some leaders who want to grow the movement, and stories like this help to do that among these confused adolescents, and the media is happy to oblige.
Uhhh...what?
Are you saying that the "movement" is recruiting confused teenagers to become gay? Are you mixing up the gays with the Jehovah's Witnesses?
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For the record, I have several LGBT folks on my team. First thing that came up today in our staff meeting is what is all the fuss about. Maybe it's just because of the industry we are in, but being LGBT is absolutely no big deal. Part of the conversation today was if life will get easier, which is why I noticed your post. In their viewpoint, it will get easier. No longer living a lie, sense of relief, etc, etc. There were some very funny lines that I couldn't fully appreciate since I am not gay, but the improved sex life was mentioned over and over again. We were all having a good chuckle at it. It's funny, I think back and I've been working with open LGBT co-workers for at least 12 years if not longer. Its not even something we think about. It only comes up when we go out as a team and someone comments on the attractiveness of another person or if they bring their significant other to an event.
So I think it actually does matter based on your POV. This announcement in Los Angeles in our industry is a yawner. This same announcement in Tuscaloosa might be seen much differently. Geography, religious affiliations, political traditions of the area, etc, etc all factor into this. So, in fact, life actually can be "easier" or with broader opportunities in some places or industries. In other parts of this country, things could be much more inhospitable, or certain industries.
I think it really depends on a lot of circumstances and not necessarily fair to say anyone who thinks life will get easier is crazy. I literally heard those words from some of my LGBT co-workers the exact opposite based on their own experiences. To each their own, but I value my co-workers opinions very much on this based on what each of them went through over the years.
Right. I agree with you. But the whole country isn't like California. This is a big deal for a lot of people. Just because you live in a more open-minded area doesn't lessen its importance for everyone else.
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You clearly are not aware of this, Chicos, but not everything is about you.
+1
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Maybe my cynicism is well placed ... it's always about money ....
If this was Kim Kardashian coming out, then yes, I would agree with your cynicism. It seems like she and her family are willing to do anything for the all-mighty dollar.
But, by all accounts, Jason is a thoughtful man, and a well respected teammate. Therefore, I don't think it's fair to jump to the conclusion that he's doing it for the money.
I have had friends who have come out, and it's a tough process. Usually involves a lot of introspection, self examination, some guilt and some fear. It's not exactly pretty, and for some people, takes years.
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Uhhh...what?
Are you saying that the "movement" is recruiting confused teenagers to become gay? Are you mixing up the gays with the Jehovah's Witnesses?
Or Mormons?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWA_jr-AwyA
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Uhhh...what?
Are you saying that the "movement" is recruiting confused teenagers to become gay? Are you mixing up the gays with the Jehovah's Witnesses?
Do you believe 100% of gays didn't choose to be gay?
Collins says he didn't choose to be gay. But why do some find it hard to believe that there are a number of people that simply choose to be gay? Even if you think there are people that are 'born gay', why would you think there are not those who just decide to be gay?
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Do you believe 100% of gays didn't choose to be gay?
Collins says he didn't choose to be gay. But why do some find it hard to believe that there are a number of people that simply choose to be gay? Even if you think there are people that are 'born gay', why would you think there are not those who just decide to be gay?
Umm for the same reason black people don't choose to be black? Or tall people choose to be tall?
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This story is everywhere. I had to turn off Mike and Mike this morning. Why can't people keep their personal lives to themselves? Respect for all is important, but the "movement" uses stories like this as a promotion tool. Watching my six kids go through school ... I'm now seeing some really confused kids walking the halls. It's getting to the point where if a kid goes a few months without a date he starts to wonder if he might be gay. And, other kids say they are gay because it's almost a fad now. There are some leaders who want to grow the movement, and stories like this help to do that among these confused adolescents, and the media is happy to oblige.
Every time Mickleson wins, he has his kids run onto the green and greet him.
I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I don't like kids. I wish he would quit shoving his family in my face and keep his personal life to himself.
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Do you believe 100% of gays didn't choose to be gay?
Collins says he didn't choose to be gay. But why do some find it hard to believe that there are a number of people that simply choose to be gay? Even if you think there are people that are 'born gay', why would you think there are not those who just decide to be gay?
What's the motivation to decide to become gay? Not being ridiculed enough in HS? Strong desire to be mocked by bigots?
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This story is everywhere. I had to turn off Mike and Mike this morning. Why can't people keep their personal lives to themselves? Respect for all is important, but the "movement" uses stories like this as a promotion tool. Watching my six kids go through school ... I'm now seeing some really confused kids walking the halls. It's getting to the point where if a kid goes a few months without a date he starts to wonder if he might be gay. And, other kids say they are gay because it's almost a fad now. There are some leaders who want to grow the movement, and stories like this help to do that among these confused adolescents, and the media is happy to oblige.
Thanks bud, this was hilarious. What you don't know is that the kids don't think it is a big deal. And why should they? It isn't.
Kudos to Jason Collins. This wasn't a financial decision, this was a courageous thing to do. I'd be shocked if he played another minute in the NBA, not because of his sexual preference, but because of his age/ability. Might he make some money off of this? Probably. Was that the intent behind his announcement? Probably not.
What a lot of people don't understand is that a lot of homosexuals live their lives as a lie. Imagine not being able to tell your coworkers or friends or family something as simple as who your significant other is. Imagine the fear that goes through these people everyday. I have a very close friend who came out to everyone, but refuses to come out to her bible thumping born again parents because she knows what they would do. Homosexuals aren't afraid of the people who accept them (and obviously society has gotten a lot more tolerant over the last two decades), but of the people that they love, and who love them, who WON'T accept them. They're afraid of the people who will say terrible things, do terrible things and that teach their children that homosexuals are gross, sinners, etc.
I'm not going to place Jason Collins in the Jackie Robinson territory, because he isn't a transcendent player. He was simply a courageous man who decided that the time was right to be himself in front of the world. And for that he deserves some respect, because a lot of people (straight, gay, or whatever) are simply to afraid to be themselves because of the fear of what other people might think of them.
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Do you believe 100% of gays didn't choose to be gay?
Collins says he didn't choose to be gay. But why do some find it hard to believe that there are a number of people that simply choose to be gay? Even if you think there are people that are 'born gay', why would you think there are not those who just decide to be gay?
Well, what difference does it make? Let's assume for sake of argument that you're correct, and that some people choose to be gay. Now what? Should people who choose to be gay be treated differently than those who are born that way? Differently than those who choose to be straight (and should we assume that since some choose to be gay, some also choose to be straight)? Should we create some sort of test to determine the genetic homosexuals from the choice homosexuals?
I guess I'm missing the point. Even if you're correct - and I don't think you are - so what?
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Do you believe 100% of gays didn't choose to be gay?
Collins says he didn't choose to be gay. But why do some find it hard to believe that there are a number of people that simply choose to be gay? Even if you think there are people that are 'born gay', why would you think there are not those who just decide to be gay?
I believe the vast majority of gays do not choose to be gay.
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Right. I agree with you. But the whole country isn't like California. This is a big deal for a lot of people. Just because you live in a more open-minded area doesn't lessen its importance for everyone else.
Exactly. The (yawn) "not much of a problem where I live so it must not be much of a problem" is, at best, very lazy thinking - on all issues.
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Do you want them to have anal sex in front of a judge or something?
This is exactly the problem, and has been for years. When it is in your interest, just say you're gay and then you become a "protected class." And yes it happens (i.e., landlord goes to evict someone and then they announce their gay and accuse the landlord of discriminating).
So expanding the "rights" of LBGT is a slippery slope as those that believe it is in their interest will claim they are gay merely to take advantage of these rights.
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This is exactly the problem, and has been for years. When it is in your interest, just say you're gay and then you become a "protected class." And yes it happens (i.e., landlord goes to evict someone and then they announce their gay and accuse the landlord of discriminating).
So expanding the "rights" of LBGT is a slippery slope as those that believe it is in their interest will claim they are gay merely to take advantage of these rights.
That is extremely ignorant. Your example doesn't happen. And if it does, the landlord only has to show the reasons that the person is being evicted. Didn't they pay their rent? Were they destroying the rental unit? Were they doing illegal things inside? You are some sort of moron if you think that simply saying, "I'm gay!" is some sort of free pass to get out of a legal problem. Get real.
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This is exactly the problem, and has been for years. When it is in your interest, just say you're gay and then you become a "protected class." And yes it happens (i.e., landlord goes to evict someone and then they announce their gay and accuse the landlord of discriminating).
So expanding the "rights" of LBGT is a slippery slope as those that believe it is in their interest will claim they are gay merely to take advantage of these rights.
Hards pretty much hit it on the head. With every post, your POV get's more and more ignorant. Apparently no minorities can get evicted from an apartment.
It must be *great* to be a Hispanic lesbian....you can live anywhere you want for free!!!
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I believe the vast majority of gays do not choose to be gay.
Exactly, you believe. That is the problem, their is no proof, just conflicted research driven by agendas (similar to the Climate change debate). Being a minority, one's sex, a handicap are readily identifiable traits that you do not get to choose. Their is no evidence of a "gay gene" so the debate is whether being gay is purely voluntary.
If it is voluntary, then no special rights should be given.
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So expanding the "rights" of LBGT is a slippery slope as those that believe it is in their interest will claim they are gay merely to take advantage of these rights.
Adam Sandler movies are not documentaries.
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That is extremely ignorant. Your example doesn't happen. And if it does, the landlord only has to show the reasons that the person is being evicted. Didn't they pay their rent? Were they destroying the rental unit? Were they doing illegal things inside? You are some sort of moron if you think that simply saying, "I'm gay!" is some sort of free pass to get out of a legal problem. Get real.
Guess you have never been a landlord. And, I guess you did not listen to the debate about gay marriage because the definition and proof of gay was a big topic. If you're going to extend rights to a protected class, then you better be able to prove someone qualifies for that class. How does one do that?
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So expanding the "rights" of LBGT is a slippery slope as those that believe it is in their interest will claim they are gay merely to take advantage of these rights.
What percentage of people are pretending to be gay to obtain "additional rights"?
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Guess you have never been a landlord. And, I guess you did not listen to the debate about gay marriage because the definition and proof of gay was a big topic. If you're going to extend rights to a protected class, then you better be able to prove someone qualifies for that class. How does one do that?
I don't need to be a landlord to know how the legal system works. Your comment makes about as much sense as Ners saying that I don't know basketball because I never played high school basketball. Look dude, I know you're trying to have this argument, but being a minority doesn't entitle you to get around the legal system. Usually, it works the other way around.
You've made up some statement that is totally ignorant and you're going to stick to it. Its fine, but I really doubt anyone is going to side with you on this one.
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Jack Tripper. I am enjoying the microcosm that is this discussion. IMO, it has absolutely no impact on me. It may impact my children, future grandchildren, nieces and nephews, and their friends. Those who are gay may have an easier time than did previous generations. One can only hope.
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Exactly, you believe. That is the problem, their is no proof, just conflicted research driven by agendas (similar to the Climate change debate). Being a minority, one's sex, a handicap are readily identifiable traits that you do not get to choose. Their is no evidence of a "gay gene" so the debate is whether being gay is purely voluntary.
If it is voluntary, then no special rights should be given.
Correct, there is no "gay gene," but there is evidence that homosexuality is "epigenetic," i.e. the way in which our genes express themselves in a given environment. That is not something we can consciously choose.
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Exactly, you believe. That is the problem, their is no proof, just conflicted research driven by agendas (similar to the Climate change debate). Being a minority, one's sex, a handicap are readily identifiable traits that you do not get to choose. Their is no evidence of a "gay gene" so the debate is whether being gay is purely voluntary.
If it is voluntary, then no special rights should be given.
I used the word "I believe.." because that is the specific question I was asked. But if you honestly think that there is no proof of a hereditary connection, then you are a moron. (Just because something is hereditary, doesn't make it genetic.)
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/12/11/scientists-may-have-finally-unlocked-puzzle-of-why-people-are-gay
As the article states "The hereditary link of homosexuality has long been established." If you think that this is driven by some sort of "agenda" and doesn't have its roots in clear scientific method, then you should just turn in your Marquette degree because you apparently didn't learn much.
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What percentage of people are pretending to be gay to obtain "additional rights"?
What percentage of the population is actually Gay?
This say 4%, with half that group being bi-sexual (mainly women)
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/williams-institute-report-reveals-million-gay-bisexual-transgender/story?id=13320565#.UX_YQ0o3lvg
So that means less than 2% of the public is outright gay.
Thus story also says less than 2% of the population is gay but Most Americans think it is 10% to 25%.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/
Why does the average American think the gay population is 12 times higher than reality? Maybe because they believe lots of people that are gay are really not. Could it be some of them lead the public into thinking they are gay because it suits their purpose?
Back to the point of this thread ....
The NBA has 300 players, so national averages suggest their are 5 gay players right now. One came out. And if you believe the NBA would attract a lower number of gay players than the general population, their might only be 1 or 2 more gay players. This is why no one has come out before. We wildly overinflated the number of LBGT that actually exist.
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Exactly, you believe. That is the problem, their is no proof, just conflicted research driven by agendas (similar to the Climate change debate).
Yes, you're right. There is no scientific evidence supporting global warming or that homosexuality is not a choice. Just stop before you embarass yourself even more.
Also, I'm not usually one to correct people on grammar, but because every other post in this thread belongs to you and you keep doing it, it's THERE. Not their.
The most depressing part of this entire thread is that you hold a parchment from the same school that I do.
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The 10% number is from Kinsey's studies.
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The 10% number is from Kinsey's studies.
That study was from 1948
This says 3.4%, with a 1% margin for error and the majority say they are bi-sexual.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/gallup-poll-only-3-4-percent-of-us-adults-identify-as-lgbt-83545/
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Now waiting for the first NBA owner to come out... maybe when Kohl sells the Bucks?
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What percentage of the population is actually Gay?
This say 4%, with half that group being bi-sexual (mainly women)
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/williams-institute-report-reveals-million-gay-bisexual-transgender/story?id=13320565#.UX_YQ0o3lvg
So that means less than 2% of the public is outright gay.
Thus story also says less than 2% of the population is gay but Most Americans think it is 10% to 25%.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/
Why does the average American think the gay population is 12 times higher than reality? Maybe because they believe lots of people that are gay are really not. Could it be some of them lead the public into thinking they are gay because it suits their purpose?
Back to the point of this thread ....
The NBA has 300 players, so national averages suggest their are 5 gay players right now. One came out. And if you believe the NBA would attract a lower number of gay players than the general population, their might only be 1 or 2 more gay players. This is why no one has come out before. We wildly overinflated the number of LBGT that actually exist.
I'm not really following the logic here.
Americans over-estimate the number of gay people, so that means a lot of people are pretending to be gay?
Just from personal experience, I don't know anybody that has pretended to be gay, nor have I read about that being a problem. I guess it could be, but I really haven't seen/read much about it.
Are there studies or articles discussing how there are a lot of people pretending to be gay? Is it really a big problem?
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I'm not really following the logic here.
Americans over-estimate the number of gay people, so that means a lot of people are pretending to be gay?
Just from personal experience, I don't know anybody that has pretended to be gay, nor have I read about that being a problem. I guess it could be, but I really haven't seen/read much about it.
Are there studies or articles discussing how there are a lot of people pretending to be gay? Is it really a big problem?
A big problem? It's an epidemic!
But I do wonder, why would someone pretend to be gay to their friends, family, co-workers and - most importantly - landlords, but then fess up on a survey?
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I'm not really following the logic here.
Americans over-estimate the number of gay people, so that means a lot of people are pretending to be gay?
Just from personal experience, I don't know anybody that has pretended to be gay, nor have I read about that being a problem. I guess it could be, but I really haven't seen/read much about it.
Are there studies or articles discussing how there are a lot of people pretending to be gay? Is it really a big problem?
Yes, the problem with gay marriage is expanded rights of property and estate transfers with tax implications to same sex partners. So, as I noted before, businesspeople could "marry" to take advantage of the better tax treatment. Yes, male/female businesspeople can and do that now. But same sex will vastly expand this potential abuse.
This was part of the gay marriage debate at the Supreme court ... if they extend rights and privileges to gays, how does not prove they are gay?
For instance, it LBGT becomes true minority status (and don't fool yourself this is where we are going), then will universities have quotas for LBGT students? Will kids seeking to get into an elite university "just say" they are LBGT to increase their chances of acceptance? How does one prove they are LBGT?
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Now waiting for the first NBA owner to come out... maybe when Kohl sells the Bucks?
Fantastic.
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So a man and woman can't pretend to be in love to get married and get those benefits??? I'm pretty sure that was the entire premise of that terrible Ryan Reynolds-Sanda Bullock rom com that I don't know the name of. Do a man and woman have to prove they are "in it for the right reasons"?
What does it matter if someone identifies as gay or straight to determine their rights?
I do think that because so much attention gets paid to this sort of stuff there is a natural push back that occurs because the number of people impacted is smaller than the attention paid to it. I'm not saying that attention shouldn't be paid, but I think people need to divorce the topic from the medias' tendency to go all OMG on everything.
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Yes, the problem with gay marriage is expanded rights of property and estate transfers with tax implications to same sex partners. So, as I noted before, businesspeople could "marry" to take advantage of the better tax treatment. Yes, male/female businesspeople can and do that now. But same sex will vastly expand this potential abuse.
This was part of the gay marriage debate at the Supreme court ... if they extend rights and privileges to gays, how does not prove they are gay?
For instance, it LBGT becomes true minority status (and don't fool yourself this is where we are going), then will universities have quotas for LBGT students? Will kids seeking to get into an elite university "just say" they are LBGT to increase their chances of acceptance? How does one prove that are LBGT?
OOOooooo....
A strawman makes an appearance!!!!
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This is exactly the problem, and has been for years. When it is in your interest, just say you're gay and then you become a "protected class." And yes it happens (i.e., landlord goes to evict someone and then they announce their gay and accuse the landlord of discriminating).
So expanding the "rights" of LBGT is a slippery slope as those that believe it is in their interest will claim they are gay merely to take advantage of these rights.
Your confusing bitterness suggests a vendetta due to a slighting in your past.
More importantly, please answer my question on Robbie Rogers.
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What's the motivation to decide to become gay? Not being ridiculed enough in HS? Strong desire to be mocked by bigots?
What's the motivation to stretch an earlobe and put a big "plug" in it? What's the motivation to tattoo your face?
What's the motivation to commit stupid crimes? What's the motivation to do illicit drugs? Why wear weird make up and wear black clothing?
Some people do things because others are doing it. Some people want to be accepted. Why would you believe being gay would be any different? Is being gay such a horrible thing that you believe no one would choose to do it of their own volition?
I hear this line of thinking and it seems strange: "Being gay is great and wonderful. I'm so proud of the gay community! By the way, people are only gay because they were born that way. No one would actually just decide to be gay."
It's as if some people praise gays for their sexual preference, yet "forgive them" because it's not really their own choice. Strange.
PS - the gay marriage debate is silly. If you want true equality than why are you not telling the gov't to get out of the marriage business. Why should unmarried people be "disadvantaged" because of their personal (and often religion-based) decision to NOT marry? Gay marriage isn't about equality.
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Yes, the problem with gay marriage is expanded rights of property and estate transfers with tax implications to same sex partners. So, as I noted before, businesspeople could "marry" to take advantage of the better tax treatment. Yes, male/female businesspeople can and do that now. But same sex will vastly expand this potential abuse.
This was part of the gay marriage debate at the Supreme court ... if they extend rights and privileges to gays, how does not prove they are gay?
For instance, it LBGT becomes true minority status (and don't fool yourself this is where we are going), then will universities have quotas for LBGT students? Will kids seeking to get into an elite university "just say" they are LBGT to increase their chances of acceptance? How does one prove that are LBGT?
So the first 4% of people to claim they are gay get the rights, after that TS...problem solved. ;D
The great irony is we are getting to the point where identity is fractured so there is literally no majority. However extending marriage to a gay couple is completely different from a quota on LBGT students, there is no quota for married couples that I'm aware of.
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Yes, you're right. There is no scientific evidence supporting global warming or that homosexuality is not a choice. Just stop before you embarass yourself even more.
Also, I'm not usually one to correct people on grammar, but because every other post in this thread belongs to you and you keep doing it, it's THERE. Not their.
The most depressing part of this entire thread is that you hold a parchment from the same school that I do.
That is a pretty bigoted statement
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What's the motivation to stretch an earlobe and put a big "plug" in it? What's the motivation to tattoo your face?
What's the motivation to commit stupid crimes? What's the motivation to do illicit drugs? Why wear weird make up and wear black clothing?
Some people do things because others are doing it. Some people want to be accepted. Why would you believe being gay would be any different? Is being gay such a horrible thing that you believe no one would choose to do it of their own volition?
I hear this line of thinking and it seems strange: "Being gay is great and wonderful. I'm so proud of the gay community! By the way, people are only gay because they were born that way. No one would actually just decide to be gay."
It's as if some people praise gays for their sexual preference, yet "forgive them" because it's not really their own choice. Strange.
People aren't praising people for their sexual preference. They are praising people for having the courage to be honest and open about their sexual preference.
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That is a pretty bigoted statement
Yes. And it one I share with Victor.
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Yes, the problem with gay marriage is expanded rights of property and estate transfers with tax implications to same sex partners. So, as I noted before, businesspeople could "marry" to take advantage of the better tax treatment. Yes, male/female businesspeople can and do that now. But same sex will vastly expand this potential abuse.
This was part of the gay marriage debate at the Supreme court ... if they extend rights and privileges to gays, how does not prove they are gay?
For instance, it LBGT becomes true minority status (and don't fool yourself this is where we are going), then will universities have quotas for LBGT students? Will kids seeking to get into an elite university "just say" they are LBGT to increase their chances of acceptance? How does one prove that are LBGT?
Theoretically, it could all happen.
BUT, is it ACTUALLY happening?
Outside of Jack Tripper and/or Tim Whatley, I haven't heard someone becoming gay (or Jewish) for monetary or social gain.
EDIT: Forgot Chuck and Larry. That's actually a decent movie.
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People aren't praising people for their sexual preference. They are praising people for having the courage to be honest and open about their sexual preference.
ONLY because that preference is GAY.
Try having a parade praising those with a straight sexual preference and see what happens.
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ONLY because that preference is GAY.
Try having a parade praising those with a straight sexual preference and see what happens.
There's German fest, Irish fest, etc.
If you want to have "straight fest", nobody can stop you. Go for it.
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Try having a parade praising those with a straight sexual preference and see what happens.
Are you also upset that hip-hop artists get to say the 'N' word and you don't?
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ONLY because that preference is GAY.
Try having a parade praising those with a straight sexual preference and see what happens.
You should suggest that we have White History Month as your next point of argument.
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Just read through this whole thread. Can't believe it's still unlocked...
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Exactly, you believe. That is the problem, their is no proof, just conflicted research driven by agendas (similar to the Climate change debate). Being a minority, one's sex, a handicap are readily identifiable traits that you do not get to choose. Their is no evidence of a "gay gene" so the debate is whether being gay is purely voluntary.
If it is voluntary, then no special rights should be given.
MU84 your arguments are a f'ing joke.
1) Yes, I believe that somebody doesn't choose to be gay. Until they "scientifically prove" it for you I'll tell you why. Why would somebody choose to be gay when half of society is like you MU84 and would do anything in their power to ridicule them, question them, tell them how 'wrong' they are, and make their life a living hell. Why would somebody choose that poker hand? If you know anybody that is gay (and I doubt you do) they'll explain this in more detail for you.
2) That is what makes the Collins story a big deal; if schmucks like you don't want it to be a big deal then stop being a schmuck.
3) I don't understand your property argument and tax argument. I know a vast amount of man/woman couples that are not only married, but are business partners. You really think that the first reason they got married was for tax treatment? If you do than I feel really sorry for you. Your argument of not allowing gay marriage is based on a total hypothetical. I betcha people are marching on the streets so they can get a tax benefit.
4) I know I might not share the same views as majority of people on this board or at Marquette, but some of these posts are just damn-right embarrassing that you could have came from the same school as me.
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Yes. And it one I share with Victor.
Admitting your a bigot on a message board. You're a true goddamn american hero
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1) Yes, I believe that somebody doesn't choose to be gay. Until they "scientifically prove" it for you I'll tell you why. Why would somebody choose to be gay when half of society is like you MU84 and would do anything in their power to ridicule them, question them, tell them how 'wrong' they are, and make their life a living hell. Why would somebody choose that poker hand?
Lots of people choose to do things that make others ridicule them. Some want to be accepted. Not by everyone, but by a certain group. This type of human behavior is not surprising. Do people that simply chose to be gay to 'fit in' exist? No doubt.
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There's German fest, Irish fest, etc.
If you want to have "straight fest", nobody can stop you. Go for it.
Now *that* would be boring.
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ONLY because that preference is GAY.
False. I have never heard anyone praised simply for being gay.
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Before the lock...this is an unbelievably pathetic thread, even by MUScoop standards.
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4) I know I might not share the same views as majority of people on this board or at Marquette, but some of these posts are just damn-right embarrassing that you could have came from the same school as me.
Why don't you guys take up a collection and buy my degree back from me. How much is it worth to you?
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Good for Jason Collins. I'm happy that white American liberals have something to feel good about after the Boston bombers turned out to be Muslim terrorist welfare queens.
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What's the motivation to decide to become gay? Not being ridiculed enough in HS? Strong desire to be mocked by bigots?
+1000
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Do you believe 100% of gays didn't choose to be gay?
Collins says he didn't choose to be gay. But why do some find it hard to believe that there are a number of people that simply choose to be gay? Even if you think there are people that are 'born gay', why would you think there are not those who just decide to be gay?
Did you choose to be heterosexual? I'll bet not.
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Did you choose to be heterosexual? I'll bet not.
Like others my free will enables me to choose to do as I wish in life. Genetics, environment and other things may push me toward one choice over another, but ultimately it's my choosing.
Do you believe there are no gays that chose to be gay?
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Thank you, AnotherMU84, for presenting your opinion and vigorously defending it. It is important for those of us who are not upset about this to hear from those who are. The next time we hear a gay person talk about some of the criticism they had to endure throughout their life, we can think back to this thread and realize they aren't joking.
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Like others my free will enables me to choose to do as I wish in life. Genetics, environment and other things may push me toward one choice over another, but ultimately it's my choosing.
Do you believe there are no gays that chose to be gay?
What percentage of gay people are simply choosing to be gay? Is it a significant amount that it's even worth discussing? AND if somebody is choosing to be gay, so what? What's the difference? It's not like they get to automatically cut in line at the grocery store. They don't get preferential seating at the Bradley Center. Who cares?
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I feel horrible for all of those people out there pretending to be gay who live their lives in fear of being outed as straight. ::) Because that is happening all the time.
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I feel horrible for all of those people out there pretending to be gay who live their lives in fear of being outed as straight. ::) Because that is happening all the time.
No, no, no. You're missing the point.
They're doing it for the chance to march in those fabulous parades.
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Well, in all seriousness, somebody COULD pretend to be gay for some sort of gain.
But, I just have never heard of a significant amount of people actually doing that, so I don't know why it's even an issue or a topic for discussion.
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After reading this thread, I think I will come out of the closet.
Looking forward to my free rent, my entry into an Ivy league institution, tax breaks, endorsement deals, and meeting President Obama.
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Like others my free will enables me to choose to do as I wish in life. Genetics, environment and other things may push me toward one choice over another, but ultimately it's my choosing.
Do you believe there are no gays that chose to be gay?
You are mixing up sexual preference with sexual acts. There are probably many homosexuals who live a heterosexual lifestyle, and likely a few in reverse. But most people do not choose their preference.
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You clearly are not aware of this, Chicos, but not everything is about you.
I'm well aware of it, and that goes both ways....for those that don't think its a big deal they don't want it crammed down their throat 24/7 because others think it is a big deal. Again, goes both ways.
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Exactly. The (yawn) "not much of a problem where I live so it must not be much of a problem" is, at best, very lazy thinking - on all issues.
Not really, it means people here have already done the thinking and moved on from this years ago.....you guys are just way behind or didn't want to address it. As California goes, so goes the nation (eventually).
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That is a pretty bigoted statement
AMEN.
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Not really, it means people here have already done the thinking and moved on from this years ago.....you guys are just way behind or didn't want to address it. As California goes, so goes the nation (eventually).
And as Chicos goes, so goes California ;)
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I'm well aware of it, and that goes both ways....for those that don't think its a big deal they don't want it crammed down their throat 24/7 because others think it is a big deal. Again, goes both ways.
People don't want Tebow shoved down their throat either. Didn't stop ESPN. Still doesn't stop ESPN.
At the end of the day, I'm in charge of my own consumption, so if I don't like topic, I can always change the station.
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Collins girlfriend of 8 years interviewed today. He broke off the marriage ceremony a month before it was to happen. Had a friend go through this same situation, though he admitted he was gay for the reason to break it off and she was devastated. Tough situation, for both.
http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/9227052/collins-fiancee-reaction
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False. I have never heard anyone praised simply for being gay.
You need to move out west.
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People don't want Tebow shoved down their throat either. Didn't stop ESPN. Still doesn't stop ESPN.
At the end of the day, I'm in charge of my own consumption, so if I don't like topic, I can always change the station.
On some things, yes, but on something like this that the media makes 24/7 all the time, the escape is a bit different. Tebow was mostly an ESPN thing. This goes way beyond.
Again, fortunate that I live out here where we are all like, "really?"...welcome to the 21st century the rest of America. Of course, there is plenty of other things here in California and the "enlightened" class that have destroyed the state and it's also moving to the rest of the country, but this issue isn't one of them.
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On some things, yes, but on something like this that the media makes 24/7 all the time, the escape is a bit different. Tebow was mostly an ESPN thing. This goes way beyond.
Take some personal responsibility. YOU are in charge of your consumption.
This isn't the media's fault. You consume what you want. If you don't want to hear about it, don't listen or watch stories about it. If it shows up on your local news, turn it off. If it comes up on your favorite talk radio station, turn it off.
That's how the free market works, even in California.
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Again, fortunate that I live out here where we are all like, "really?"...welcome to the 21st century the rest of America.
You still don't really get it. Most of the "rest of America" is pretty much accepting of gay people. It is the fact that he is the first openly gay athlete in a professional team sport that is the issue here.
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When topics of social justice arise on this board I'm overwhelmed with feelings of embarrassment toward Marquette. Not all, or even most, Marquette graduates are hateful but the proportion that are is far too large for a Jesuit school that prides themselves on character, morality and justice. Still, some posters here restore my faith in Marquette.
As far as this topic specifically - there are no good arguments against homosexuals in any sense, only bigoted ones. A huge thank you goes out to Jason Collins.
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Like others my free will enables me to choose to do as I wish in life. Genetics, environment and other things may push me toward one choice over another, but ultimately it's my choosing.
Do you believe there are no gays that chose to be gay?
Why would they choose a lifestyle that only makes their life more difficult?
Yes, I believe that there are no gays who choose to be gay.
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Lots of people choose to do things that make others ridicule them. Some want to be accepted. Not by everyone, but by a certain group. This type of human behavior is not surprising. Do people that simply chose to be gay to 'fit in' exist? No doubt.
If it's so easy to just "be gay" then it shouldn't be that hard for you to prove it for 15 minutes to make your case that much stronger. Go ahead and have sex with the nearest man you can find. Remember, it's just a choice so it shouldn't be that difficult to convince yourself they are attractive. It's the same as putting on black makeup.
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Like others my free will enables me to choose to do as I wish in life. Genetics, environment and other things may push me toward one choice over another, but ultimately it's my choosing.
Do you believe there are no gays that chose to be gay?
Contrary to many, I chose the thug life
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/011/023/descarga.jpg)
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People don't want Tebow shoved down their throat either.
Umm, pretty sure Jason Collins does.
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I'm well aware of it, and that goes both ways....for those that don't think its a big deal they don't want it crammed down their throat 24/7 because others think it is a big deal. Again, goes both ways.
Nobody is having anything crammed down their throat. Don't want to hear about Jason Collins?
Turn off the TV when that segment comes on.
Don't buy the latest SI.
Don't read threads on Internet forums entitled "Jason Collins."
You're not a jellyfish floating helplessly with the ocean current. You have 100 percent control over the media you consume.