MUScoop

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/04/23/larry-brown-smu-losing-three-freshman-to-transfer/

Would there be any interest in Dickerson or the other 2?

Blaise Mbargorba was mentioned with MU when he came out.  He missed his entire freshman year due to injury.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27534.0

Many people feel we need an big man for depth: http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=38414.0

I certainly wouldnt mind adding one of these guys.

They're being Browned out?

Quote from: Pakuni on April 23, 2013, 04:19:01 PM
They're being Browned out?

Yes.....we are reserving the term "Larried" for when Larry Williams runs Buzz out of town...so Browned Out is appropriate here.  Or, What Can Brown Do For You may also apply.

Brown flushed em out?

They can't all be Brown stars

They're leaving Brown town.

They're being Brownfielded.

They were shown the Brown Eye.

got brown-bagged

Quote from: MarquetteMAN on April 23, 2013, 04:06:16 PM
http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/04/23/larry-brown-smu-losing-three-freshman-to-transfer/

Would there be any interest in Dickerson or the other 2?

Please.  Just stop.

In one thread I find fans pining over players who can't crack the rotation at UNC.

Now we have fans inquiring over players who can't crack the rotation at SMU!!!  The 11th place team in C-USA! 

Just because a player is available doesn't mean we should take a look.

Here's an idea:  Ask yourself--can this player realistically compete for a starting spot at Duke or UNC or UL or Kentucky or Kansas?  If the answer is NO, then we don't need him either.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 24, 2013, 04:38:34 PM
Please.  Just stop.

In one thread I find fans pining over players who can't crack the rotation at UNC.

Now we have fans inquiring over players who can't crack the rotation at SMU!!!  The 11th place team in C-USA!  

Just because a player is available doesn't mean we should take a look.

Here's an idea:  Ask yourself--can this player realistically compete for a starting spot at Duke or UNC or UL or Kentucky or Kansas?  If the answer is NO, then we don't need him either.

Jamil Wilson was only an occasional starter for a bad Oregon team (8th place in the Pac-10!), and we know how badly his transfer turned out.
And I'm pretty sure Trent Lockett wouldn't have started at Duke or Kansas this past season.

Here's an idea: Ask yourself -- if a player can realistically compete for a starting spot at Duke or UNC or UL or Kentucky or Kansas, why is he transferring to Marquette?

The only one I would be interested in is the seven-footer and only because he was mentioned with MU before.  The others don't interest me in the least.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 25, 2013, 06:28:05 AM
The only one I would be interested in is the seven-footer and only because he was mentioned with MU before.  The others don't interest me in the least.

Agreed.  I think you would have to take a good look at Mbargorba.  Four years of eligibility and a great project big man.  Can't see the other two contributing much.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 25, 2013, 06:28:05 AMThe only one I would be interested in is the seven-footer and only because he was mentioned with MU before.  The others don't interest me in the least.

I'd third that. Mbargorba was a heck of a prospect and you can't really put SMU's misfortunes on a guy that never played for them. The injury worries me a bit, but if he's healthy, he'd be worth a look.

Quotegot brown-bagged

Ow now brown cow

Quote from: frozena pizza on April 25, 2013, 08:39:18 AM
Agreed.  I think you would have to take a good look at Mbargorba.  Four years of eligibility and a great project big man.  Can't see the other two contributing much.

I know that he was injured, but IIRC, Mbargorba would be limited to three years based on the fours years used in five years rule.  That's the rule that has to get waived when a Otule goes six years.  I think that it can be waived for injuries, but isn't usually when there is a transfer year involved.  Anyone know for sure?

Quote from: LittleMurs on April 25, 2013, 10:09:15 AM
I know that he was injured, but IIRC, Mbargorba would be limited to three years based on the fours years used in five years rule.  That's the rule that has to get waived when a Otule goes six years.  I think that it can be waived for injuries, but isn't usually when there is a transfer year involved.  Anyone know for sure?

That's generally true, though Scott Martin gat a 6th year at ND last year even though he had a transfer season.  All depends on how NCAA views a given situation.

Quote from: Pakuni on April 24, 2013, 04:47:38 PM
Jamil Wilson was only an occasional starter for a bad Oregon team (8th place in the Pac-10!), and we know how badly his transfer turned out.
And I'm pretty sure Trent Lockett wouldn't have started at Duke or Kansas this past season.

Here's an idea: Ask yourself -- if a player can realistically compete for a starting spot at Duke or UNC or UL or Kentucky or Kansas, why is he transferring to Marquette?

If you think that Jamil Wilson's/Trent Locket's pre-transfer performances are even remotely comparable to Jordan Dickerson's SMU performance you either failed Sesame Street's "One of these things is not like the other" or you're simply arguing for argument's sake.

In either case, Dickerson isn't going to keep us competitive with Duke or UNC or UK or Kansas--so why bother even considering him.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 25, 2013, 06:38:24 PM
If you think that Jamil Wilson's/Trent Locket's pre-transfer performances are even remotely comparable to Jordan Dickerson's SMU performance you either failed Sesame Street's "One of these things is not like the other" or you're simply arguing for argument's sake.

In either case, Dickerson isn't going to keep us competitive with Duke or UNC or UK or Kansas--so why bother even considering him.

My reply had nothing to do with Dickerson. I was just mocking your ridiculous criteria for who Marquette should deem worthy of a possible transfer.
Fact is, if Buzz Williams thought like you, Jamil Wilson and Trent Lockett would never have been at Marquette. And without those two, Marquette isn't Big East champs or making the Elite Eight.
So, I for one am glad Buzz Williams thinks nothing like you.

Quote from: LittleMurs on April 25, 2013, 10:09:15 AM
I know that he was injured, but IIRC, Mbargorba would be limited to three years based on the fours years used in five years rule.  That's the rule that has to get waived when a Otule goes six years.  I think that it can be waived for injuries, but isn't usually when there is a transfer year involved.  Anyone know for sure?

It's the NCAA so almost anything is possible, but you're correct. The Five Year Rule Waiver is for cases when a student-athlete misses two years due ("missing a year" generally includes a year in which a player is or would have been awarded a medical hardship waiver) to circumstances outside their control and that of their school.

In the case of Mbargorba he'd be missing 2013-14 due to his own decision to transfer and thus would not fit the criteria for a Five Year Rule Waiver. In other words, he'll effectively have 3 years to play 3 years beginning in 2014-15.

Quote from: Nukem2That's generally true, though Scott Martin gat a 6th year at ND last year even though he had a transfer season.  All depends on how NCAA views a given situation.

The NCAA doesn't explain their reasoning, but for Martin a reasonable explanation can be made. At face value his situation didn't appear to fit the Five Year Waiver Rule criteria, but here's why (I believe) it was granted: His transfer from Purdue to Notre Dame was, it was likely argued, for him to be closer to his sick father. The second year was missed due to injury... so it comes down to a question of whether his transfer was due to circumstances outside of the control of Martin or Notre Dame... and they (presumably) decided that, yes, his father's illness was such a circumstance and therefore they granted a waiver.

Quote from: Jay Bee on April 25, 2013, 11:57:42 PM
The NCAA doesn't explain their reasoning, but for Martin a reasonable explanation can be made. At face value his situation didn't appear to fit the Five Year Waiver Rule criteria, but here's why (I believe) it was granted: His transfer from Purdue to Notre Dame was, it was likely argued, for him to be closer to his sick father. The second year was missed due to injury... so it comes down to a question of whether his transfer was due to circumstances outside of the control of Martin or Notre Dame... and they (presumably) decided that, yes, his father's illness was such a circumstance and therefore they granted a waiver.

If that's the case, then that is really a stretch of the rules.  Martin is from Valparaiso.  He went to Purdue (about 80 miles away), and then transferred to South Bend (50 miles away).  I mean, it would be one thing if he transferred to Valpo...but granting a sixth year to be 30 miles closer to home?

Quote from: Pakuni on April 25, 2013, 11:39:16 PM
My reply had nothing to do with Dickerson. I was just mocking your ridiculous criteria for who Marquette should deem worthy of a possible transfer.
Fact is, if Buzz Williams thought like you, Jamil Wilson and Trent Lockett would never have been at Marquette. And without those two, Marquette isn't Big East champs or making the Elite Eight.
So, I for one am glad Buzz Williams thinks nothing like you.

Fact?  Based on what alternate universe are you posting from?

You're just flat out wrong on this.

Wilson was a top 30 HS player (#23 in Rivals) and started more than half his freshman-season games while playing in a BCS conference. MSU heavily recruited him--he would have a good chance to compete for a starting spot on any team in the country. 

Lockett was a top 100 HS player (#80 in rivals), had 3 years experience on a BCS team, was 2nd team all-Pac 10, a starter since his freshman year, shot over 40% on 3 point shots, averaged nearly 6 boards a game.   Don't know if he would have won the starting spot at any team in the country, but he certainly would have been a viable competitor.

You should be glad that Buzz thinks exactly like me--and not like you or the others who think we should consider Jordan Dickerson or JP Tokoto.

I know your MO is to stick to mocking what you don't understand--but in this case,  let's put you on the defensive:  Can you mount any reasonable or loigical argument whatsoever that Dickerson or Tokoto could compete for starting minutes at UNC or Duke or Kansas, and therefore should be considered as transfers to MU?   

Didn't think so.

Clearly under my supposedly "ridiculous" criteria, we would most certainly consider transfers like Lockett and Wilson--because they're not even remotely comparable to Jordan Dickerson; and they're clearly better than JP Tokoto, who couldn't crack the rotation on this year's middling 8 seed UNC team.

If we want to join the ranks of the elite, we have to recruit players like they do--not accept those not good enough to crack their rotation.

You can't just take statistics without looking at context.  Tokoto had other players ahead of him.  Wilson really didn't at Oregon.  Also, you are discounting the "improvement factor" that a player can go through. 

I mean, you wouldn't take JPT as a transfer?  He gets to redshirt for a year and then has three years remaining??

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 26, 2013, 09:37:13 AM
Clearly under my supposedly "ridiculous" criteria, we would most certainly consider transfers like Lockett and Wilson--because they're not even remotely comparable to Jordan Dickerson; and they're clearly better than JP Tokoto, who couldn't crack the rotation on this year's middling 8 seed UNC team.

If you think a middling 8 seed is low, what would you consider Wilson's Ducks? Did they even make the NIT that year?

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 26, 2013, 10:17:04 AM
You can't just take statistics without looking at context.  Tokoto had other players ahead of him.  Wilson really didn't at Oregon.  Also, you are discounting the "improvement factor" that a player can go through. 

I mean, you wouldn't take JPT as a transfer?  He gets to redshirt for a year and then has three years remaining??

First, I don't buy the "he had players in front of him".  Jimmy Butler had players in front of him his first year yet still cracked the rotation for 20 mpg and established himself as an outstanding player, as witnessed by his 131.5 offensive rating. (by comparision, Jamil Wilson was 101.5 as a frosh).

Tokoto's offensive rating was just 88.0.  He wasn't out of the rotation because there was too much congestion--he was out of the rotation because he just wasn't good enough to get in.  If his offensive rating was 100, he would have averaged more minutes.

Second, I don't put a lot of stock in the "improvement factor".  Players for high-major teams who don't contribute as frosh rarely become strong contributors later in their careers--at least not at the high-major level.  Its a nice, romantic notion that players go from not contributing at all to stardom over a 4-year progression.  The reality is that great players earn mintues from day one.

And keep in mind, Tokoto wasn't improving as the season went on--he was getting 10 to 15 mpg up to the end of January.   It dropped preciptitously as the season wore on, indicating that the improvment wasn't coming.  In UNC's final 12 games of the season, he scored 2 points.  Not 2 points per game.  2 total points.

Quote from: martyconlonontherun on April 26, 2013, 12:09:19 PM
If you think a middling 8 seed is low, what would you consider Wilson's Ducks? Did they even make the NIT that year?

The difference is Wilson made the starting lineup. If he sat on the bench for that team, I'd say no way to him as well.

I think you aren't making the effort to evaluating players separately from coaches/teams. For example, I would have gladly accepted Cleveland Melvin after his freshman season, even though DePaul wound up 7-24 that year.   

Quote from: damuts222 on April 25, 2013, 09:04:44 AM
Ow now brown cow

Or maybe they're victims of Brown-sizing.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 26, 2013, 03:32:40 PM
First, I don't buy the "he had players in front of him".  

Second, I don't put a lot of stock in the "improvement factor".  

Well...OK then.  If you want to ignore the fact that UNC had a bunch of wing players that were in front of him...and you discount that players improve (like Vander did), I'm not sure what to say.

I would take him in a second.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 26, 2013, 03:45:06 PM

Well...OK then.  If you want to ignore the fact that UNC had a bunch of wing players that were in front of him...and you discount that players improve (like Vander did), I'm not sure what to say.

I would take him in a second.

I'm not ignoring it at all.  In fact, I'd say you're the one ignoring it.

We aspire to be as good as (if not better) than UNC--yet "in a second" you would take the worst of their wings--the one player who wound up behind several other players on their depth chart.

What do you want to bet that UNC isn't at all interested In Juan Anderson or Jamal Ferguson?   And yet, you could make the exact same argument as you did wth Tokoto--bunch of players ahead of them, they're going to improve like Vander. 

Yet nobody on the UNC board is saying the'd take them"in a second".

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 26, 2013, 04:38:37 PM
I'm not ignoring it at all.  In fact, I'd say you're the one ignoring it.

We aspire to be as good as (if not better) than UNC--yet "in a second" you would take the worst of their wings--the one player who wound up behind several other players on their depth chart.

What do you want to bet that UNC isn't at all interested In Juan Anderson or Jamal Ferguson?   And yet, you could make the exact same argument as you did wth Tokoto--bunch of players ahead of them, they're going to improve like Vander. 

Yet nobody on the UNC board is saying the'd take them"in a second".

Because Tokoto has an extreme upside. 

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 26, 2013, 04:38:37 PM
I'm not ignoring it at all.  In fact, I'd say you're the one ignoring it.

We aspire to be as good as (if not better) than UNC--yet "in a second" you would take the worst of their wings--the one player who wound up behind several other players on their depth chart.

What do you want to bet that UNC isn't at all interested In Juan Anderson or Jamal Ferguson?   And yet, you could make the exact same argument as you did wth Tokoto--bunch of players ahead of them, they're going to improve like Vander.  

Yet nobody on the UNC board is saying the'd take them"in a second".

you're going in cirlces...first stating if the blue bloods don't want a transfer we shouldn't either (note they didn't want jamil w.)...then referencing high school rankings (JP's were pretty good)...then saying jamil's freshman year was better than JP's because he started half the games at Oregon...when it's obvious that anyone who struggles to start at Oregon would be riding the pine at UNC.  finally not realizing that if a kid has such a limited upside at a school like UNC he would be transferring because UNC would recruit right over his head and would likely suggest he find a school where he'll get some playing time.  you must know more than roy williams....about his own players.... ::)

Quote from: avid1010 on April 26, 2013, 05:40:04 PM
you're going in cirlces...first stating if the blue bloods don't want a transfer we shouldn't either (note they didn't want jamil w.)..

I recall nothing that says Wilson shopped himself to elite programs when he wanted to transfer and they all turned him down.  My recollection is that he wanted to be close to home, and MU was the only program in the mix. 

Would you please link to the article that states that no elite program wanted him when he was transferring.

Quote from: avid1010 on April 26, 2013, 05:40:04 PM
finally not realizing that if a kid has such a limited upside at a school like UNC he would be transferring because UNC would recruit right over his head and would likely suggest he find a school where he'll get some playing time. 

Answer this for me: 
If you want to build a team that is viewed as equal to UNC in stature and talent, would you choose to build your team with:

a) UNC's castoffs
b) Players equal to or better than those that UNC recruits to replace those castoffs

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 26, 2013, 04:49:25 PM

Because Tokoto has an extreme upside. 

Thats funny, becuase this whole thing started when I replied to some of our own fans who think that Tokoto will transfer a) becuase of lack of playing time and b) Roy has and will continue to recruit over him, making minutes even harder to come by in the future.

I think you can see how that argument flies in the face of your claim that he has "extreme upside?"

After all, if he has "extreme upside", then he won't have any trouble getting mintues, right?  Roy wouldn't be recuruting over him because its just a matter of time before Tokoto is demonstrating that extreme upside.

Let's face it--the comments I replied to basicallly come down to this: "He's not good enough for UNC, but we'll settle for him at MU."

I think that's a stupid reason to accept a transfer.  I don't want players not good enough to play for UNC (or Kansas or Kentucky).  I want players equal or better than what UNC has, because I want to compete with them. 

And with Buzz presumably on a recruiting upswing as he proves himself, performs in the tournament, etc., it's exaclty the wrong time to settle for such players.

If you have a problem with THAT argument, I don't think you want to argue with me--I think its with those who hope we can get a transfer from a player not good enough to play at UNC.

--

Meanwhile, your argument takes a different twist--I'm paraphrasing, but:  "Even though he wasn't very good at UNC this year. . . and even though Roy Wlliams appears to be recruiting over him  . . .if he transfers because he thinks he won't be able to compete with those new recruits at UNC, we should take a chance becuase he has 'extreme upside.'"

I would still disagree with taking him, because I just don't see that there's a strong track record of "extreme upside" actually realizing itself.

But I think you have to accept that my post wasn't because someone initialy thought Roy WIlliams was incorrectly evaluating Tokoto--so your argument really isn't against my position.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 26, 2013, 08:26:45 PM
Thats funny, becuase this whole thing started when I replied to some of our own fans who think that Tokoto will transfer a) becuase of lack of playing time and b) Roy has and will continue to recruit over him, making minutes even harder to come by in the future.

I think you can see how that argument flies in the face of your claim that he has "extreme upside?"

You'd have a point....if I were the one claiming a and b above....but I wasn't.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 26, 2013, 08:26:45 PM
Meanwhile, your argument takes a different twist--I'm paraphrasing, but:  "Even though he wasn't very good at UNC this year. . . and even though Roy Wlliams appears to be recruiting over him  . . .if he transfers because he thinks he won't be able to compete with those new recruits at UNC, we should take a chance becuase he has 'extreme upside.'"

I never said he wasn't very good this year, and never said he was getting recruited over.

You are really doing a sh*tty job summarizing what I have said so far.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 26, 2013, 07:37:05 PM
I recall nothing that says Wilson shopped himself to elite programs when he wanted to transfer and they all turned him down.  My recollection is that he wanted to be close to home, and MU was the only program in the mix. 

Would you please link to the article that states that no elite program wanted him when he was transferring.

Answer this for me: 
If you want to build a team that is viewed as equal to UNC in stature and talent, would you choose to build your team with:

a) UNC's castoffs
b) Players equal to or better than those that UNC recruits to replace those castoffs

1.  would you please provide a link to the article that states no blue blood programs wanted to recruit me...because if you can't it clearly means they wanted me.  if you think UNC and Duke were after Jamil W. you must be nuts...they didn't want him out of high school, and they didn't want him after one year of college.  your believing that they did shows we can end this discussion...

2.  i don't want to build a team equal to UNC in stature and talent (just one that makes as many final fours as them), and to BUILD a team that wins like that you have to be able to win with players that aren't UNC level recruits.  by your logic MU shouldn't be signing any recruits because everyone we sign is someone UNC doesn't want.

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 24, 2013, 03:09:54 PM
They were shown the Brown Eye.

Classic. The Brown Eyed Cyclops winked at that one

Equalizer, I don't even feel the need to comment on what you've said here because you've already dug yourself in so deep that you don't need any more help with people piling on. However I would advise you to take a sniff around at the hole you've dug yourself into, because that's not dirt.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 26, 2013, 08:32:15 PM
You'd have a point....if I were the one claiming a and b above....but I wasn't.

I never said those were your points.  I clearly said those were the comments I was orignally responding to.

If you bothered to read what I wrote, my initial post was directed at those who pine after Tokoto because they think he will transfer a) becuase of lack of playing time and b) Roy has and will continue to recruit over him, making minutes even harder to come by in the future.

I don't care if those were your points or not--they were the points I was resplying to.  You then replied to me, taking a contrary position. 

Forgive me for drawing the conclusion that since you disagreed with my post that you agreed with those I was responding to.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 26, 2013, 08:32:15 PM

You are really doing a sh*tty job summarizing what I have said so far.

As did you, my friend, as did you.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 28, 2013, 02:51:19 PM
I never said those were your points.  I clearly said those were the comments I was orignally responding to.

If you bothered to read what I wrote, my initial post was directed at those who pine after Tokoto because they think he will transfer a) becuase of lack of playing time and b) Roy has and will continue to recruit over him, making minutes even harder to come by in the future.

You quoted me.  Don't blame me for getting confused about your arguments.

BTW, if JPT wanted to transfer to Marquette, he would be here.  I can pretty much guaranty that to be the case.  It really is silly to suggest otherwise.

Quote from: avid1010 on April 26, 2013, 09:05:11 PM
1.  would you please provide a link to the article that states no blue blood programs wanted to recruit me...because if you can't it clearly means they wanted me.  if you think UNC and Duke were after Jamil W. you must be nuts...they didn't want him out of high school, and they didn't want him after one year of college.  your believing that they did shows we can end this discussion...

Out of HS his final 7 were Michigan State, Duke, Texas, Kentucky, Purdue, Marquette and Oregon.  

Meanwhile, when he transferred he never opened up recruitng. The annoucement he was leaving Oregon and coming to MU were the same day, so I think you're misinformed (or lying) when you say that other programs weren't interested.

Nobody else from his original top 7 even knew he was leaving--so how could they indicate they were't interested?

Quote from: avid1010 on April 26, 2013, 09:05:11 PM
2.  i don't want to build a team equal to UNC in stature and talent (just one that makes as many final fours as them), and to BUILD a team that wins like that you have to be able to win with players that aren't UNC level recruits. 

Well Butler has made more Final Fours than UNC over the last five years. Are you saying you'd be happy if we matched Butler's stature & talent?  

I have to say, you're one of the few here that don't want the recognition on par with UNC or Duke.  I can find dozens of threads where people complain that we're not getting our due recognizion as a team at the same level of stature as UNC.

Quote from: avid1010 on April 26, 2013, 09:05:11 PM
by your logic MU shouldn't be signing any recruits because everyone we sign is someone UNC doesn't want.

Wow--that's a stretch.

Why don't we leave it at this:  I don't want a transfer from UNC who would leave there because he's not going to get playing time.  

My opinion is that if he's not good enough to crack the rotation there (no less start), he's probably not going to be good enough to help us get to where we want to be.

I'd rather take a chance on two incoming HS or JUCO players like Burton or Johnson or McKay than invest two years of scholarships taking a chance on Tokoto.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 28, 2013, 03:25:09 PM

You quoted me.  Don't blame me for getting confused about your arguments.

And you quoted me. So don't blame me because your views weren't relevant to my post.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 28, 2013, 03:25:09 PM
BTW, if JPT wanted to transfer to Marquette, he would be here.  I can pretty much guaranty that to be the case.  It really is silly to suggest otherwise.

I sure as hell hope we wouldn't waste two years of scholarships on him, because his performance at UNC this year tells me he's nowhere close to the performance level of Blue, Wilson, Crowder, Butler, etc.

I'd much rather our recruiting improve where we can land Stone or Looney.  Alternatively, I'd much rather take a chance on two more HS or JUCO players ala Burton, Johnson, McKay.

If Tokoto wants to come as a walk on, fine.  

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 28, 2013, 03:33:49 PM
Out of HS his final 7 were Michigan State, Duke, Texas, Kentucky, Purdue, Marquette and Oregon.  

stop posting

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 28, 2013, 03:33:49 PM
Out of HS his final 7 were Michigan State, Duke, Texas, Kentucky, Purdue, Marquette and Oregon.

Duke sniffed around Jamil...but never made an offer.  Same with Kentucky.  His final three were Oregon, MSU and Texas.

And you are using this as evidence but you discount that Tokoto is playing for North Carolina???

Please....*TRY* to be consistent. 

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 28, 2013, 09:25:55 PM

Duke sniffed around Jamil...but never made an offer.  Same with Kentucky.  His final three were Oregon, MSU and Texas.

Fine. only MSU and Texas were interested at the end of his recruiting. We can even leave out Texas if you like. But MSU is certainly similar to UNC and Duke in terms of stature as an national elite program. 

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 28, 2013, 09:25:55 PM

And you are using this as evidence but you discount that Tokoto is playing for North Carolina???

Please....*TRY* to be consistent. 

No!

I'm discounting Tokoto because he was actually on UNC's roster and tried to play for them, but was unable to crack the regular rotation.   

Please....*TRY* to undersand THAT difference.

Look, you can disagree with me if you want--but can you at least accept my view without trying to twist it by suggesting I didn't consider that he might be like Wilson or Lockett.

I don't think he showed anything even close to Wilson or Lockett-like performance.  I thnk he showed Erik WIlliams or Jamail Jones-like performance. 

I reject the notion that he sat because he was behind other players.  Todd Mayo got 20 mpg his first year at MU despite being behind better players.  Jimmy Butler got 20 mpg his first year at MU despite being behind better players. 

As I keep saying, if he transfers out of fear that he'll be recruited over and not get minutes at UNC, I don't think he's worth the risk. 
 

Why don't you stop trying to attack me or single out argument and explain to me:
a) what you saw in Tokoto's perforance this year that I'm overlooking
b) why you think Tokoto's lack of action isn't the same as Jones or Anderson or Wlliams at MU.
c) why you think Tokoto is a better risk than 2 more Buzz-type HS or JUCO recruits.

A good way might be for you to list all UNC transfers that have gone on to have great careers at other elite-level teams.

Yes or no .... do you believe that after a disappointing freshman year in which he lost his starting position on a bad team and saw a reduction in playing time as the season wore on, Jamil Wilson was then and there in a position to start at Duke or Kentucky?

Yes or no .... do you believe that after leaving ASU last summer, Trent Lockett could have gone to Kansas or Louisville and started?

If you answer either with "yes," your basketball knowledge is somehow even lower than I imagine.
If you answer "no," then you're admitting that your criteria for whom MU should consider as a transfer is not the same as Buzz Williams' and, given what we saw this past season, really, really stupid.

QuoteI'm discounting Tokoto because he was actually on UNC's roster and tried to play for them, but was unable to crack the regular rotation.   

Tokoto played more minutes as a freshman at UNC than Tyler Zeller and Reyshawn Terry. Sure am glad those guys never transferred to Marquette.
(note: not projecting Tokoto here, just illustrating the inanity of the argument)

Quote from: Pakuni on April 29, 2013, 11:52:16 AM
Yes or no .... do you believe that after a disappointing freshman year in which he lost his starting position on a bad team and saw a reduction in playing time as the season wore on, Jamil Wilson was then and there in a position to start at Duke or Kentucky?

Yes.

I don't think Orgeon was a bad team--I think they had a lousy coach that lost control and knew he was on his way out the door. And he put Wilson in his doghouse for reasons other than on-court performance--your suggestion that there was merely a "reduction in playing time" belies the fact that he went from starting and 17 minutes one game to not playing at all the next. 

This wasn't a performance issue--it was a coach/player personality issue.

Quote from: Pakuni on April 29, 2013, 11:52:16 AM
Yes or no .... do you believe that after leaving ASU last summer, Trent Lockett could have gone to Kansas or Louisville and started?

Yes. 

And given that Lockett actually did start for an elite eight team this year, I think it validates his talent.

Quote from: Pakuni on April 29, 2013, 11:52:16 AM
If you answer "no," then you're admitting that your criteria for whom MU should consider as a transfer is not the same as Buzz Williams' and, given what we saw this past season, really, really stupid.

Oh, really?  What underperforming transfer from an elite team has Buzz taken? Which transfer has he accepted who was not already starting for another team?  Hell--lets not even make starting a condition--what transfer has he taken who was not part of the rotation at his previous team?   

Quote from: Pakuni on April 29, 2013, 11:52:16 AM
Tokoto played more minutes as a freshman at UNC than Tyler Zeller and Reyshawn Terry. Sure am glad those guys never transferred to Marquette.
(note: not projecting Tokoto here, just illustrating the inanity of the argument)

As if Zeller's broken arm in the 2nd game of the season--keeping him on the bench until mid-February--had nothing at all to do with his limited minutes.

Its pathetic for you to even try to pass this off as comparable to Tokoto's situation.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 29, 2013, 01:42:06 PM
This wasn't a performance issue--it was a coach/player personality issue. 

You have no idea what you're talking about.
What you're suggesting is that Ernie Kent, at a time when he was coaching for his livelihood, sat one of his better players - a guy who could be starting at Duke or Kentucky! - because of a "personality issue."
Sure. Makes complete sense.

Quote
And given that Lockett actually did start for an elite eight team this year, I think it validates his talent. 

OK, just so we're clear .... you believe Trent Lockett starts at Kansas over top-3 NBA pick Ben McLemore or Travis Relford.
Are we really having this discussion?

Quote
Oh, really?  What underperforming transfer from an elite team has Buzz taken? Which transfer has he accepted who was not already starting for another team? 

Ummm ... Jamil Wilson? Pay attention.
Oh, wait. He wasn't underperforming. His coach was just being mean.

QuoteAs if Zeller's broken arm in the 2nd game of the season--keeping him on the bench until mid-February--had nothing at all to do with his limited minutes.

No, Zeller's broken arm did not affect his minutes per game at all. He didn't play because there were better players in front of him. Imagine that: a program like UNC might just have better players ahead of its incoming freshman. Just like UNC has two projected first-round picks ahead of Tokoto.

The only thing that's pathetic here is me allowing myself to be drawn into this nonsense.

Quote from: Pakuni on April 29, 2013, 02:12:44 PM
No, Zeller's broken arm did not affect his minutes per game at all. He didn't play because there were better players in front of him.

Hmm . . .
Pre injury:  2 games, 2 starts, 22.5 mpg
Post injury: 13 games, 0 starts, 5.3 mpg

But, nah, the injury didn't affect his starts or minutes per game at all.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 29, 2013, 04:57:19 PM
Hmm . . .
Pre injury:  2 games, 2 starts, 22.5 mpg
Post injury: 13 games, 0 starts, 5.3 mpg

But, nah, the injury didn't affect his starts or minutes per game at all.

2 games.  I'd say that's a reasonable sample size!

And Zeller really only played those big minutes early because Hansbrough was injured to start the year.

See how that works?  You have all-Americans in front of you and you don't see the floor much.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 29, 2013, 07:14:30 PM
And Zeller really only played those big minutes early because Hansbrough was injured to start the year.

Sorry, but the notion that his injury had nothing to do with his playing time just doesn't pass the smell test.  We saw how much injuries impacted the development of our own players from Mbakwe to Cadougan to Otule. 

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 29, 2013, 04:57:19 PM
Hmm . . .
Pre injury:  2 games, 2 starts, 22.5 mpg
Post injury: 13 games, 0 starts, 5.3 mpg

But, nah, the injury didn't affect his starts or minutes per game at all.

He played so many minutes those first two games because Hansbrough was out.
Nice research, dude.

Edit: D'oh. Skink beat me to it.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 29, 2013, 08:24:47 PM
Sorry, but the notion that his injury had nothing to do with his playing time just doesn't pass the smell test.  We saw how much injuries impacted the development of our own players from Mbakwe to Cadougan to Otule. 

Sorry, but your argument gets lamer with every post.

Quote from: The Equalizer on April 29, 2013, 08:24:47 PM
Sorry, but the notion that his injury had nothing to do with his playing time just doesn't pass the smell test.  We saw how much injuries impacted the development of our own players from Mbakwe to Cadougan to Otule. 

So it was the injury - and not the fact the Wooden Award winner was ahead of him on the depth chart- that caused Zeller to play few minutes as a frosh?

Good grief, you really don't know when to quit.

Quote from: Pakuni on April 29, 2013, 08:27:01 PM
He played so many minutes those first two games because Hansbrough was out.
Nice research, dude.

Edit: D'oh. Skink beat me to it.

That's like saying Jae Crowder got more than 5 mpg at MU only because of injuries to Otule and Gardner.  

We all saw (well maybe not you) how injuries impacted the returns of James, Cadougan, Mbakwe, Christopherson, Otule, Matthews, etc. Hell, we have fans that argue that a 3-game suspension impacted the entire career of Juan Anderson.

Meanwhioe, the fact that you think a player can break his writst, get a plate and a dozen screws in his arm, miss 12 weeks in the middle of the season, then return to  100% of his pre-injury status is beyond nutty.

It's also beyond nutty that you think Roy Williams would start and give 22+ mpg to a player he wouldn't otherwise play simply because of an injury to another player. Did Buzz Williams give Gardner's 21 mpg to Jamail Jones or Juan Anderson?  Hardly. He did exactly what all good coaches do-shorten ths rotation and spread the minutes.

Maybe Zellar got a couple of extra minutes per game incrementally because Hansbrough was injured--just like Crowder got a few extra mintues/game when Gardner was injured.  

Quote from: Pakuni on April 29, 2013, 08:44:10 PM
So it was the injury - and not the fact the Wooden Award winner was ahead of him on the depth chart- that caused Zeller to play few minutes as a frosh?

Good grief, you really don't know when to quit.

I think a 25/15 split in minutes--maybe even 25/20 with them playing 5 mpg in a lineup together--would not have been out of the realm of possiblity had no injury to either player taken place.

If this concept confuses you, look at how Jimmy Butler got 20 mpg his first season despite playing behind not just one, but two players (Matthews and Hayward). 

I very highly doubt that Zellar would have been limited to just 5 mpg for the  season had he been healthy. 

Get a room , boys....l........

Going back and reading the articles when Zeller broke his arm, Roy Williams certainly paints it as a major hit to his program.  I would imagine that is because he thought Zeller was going to be a major player.  When he comes back in February (instead of missing the season as projected), equally intersting comments from Coach Williams and having Zeller back.

Quote from: Nukem2 on April 29, 2013, 09:54:44 PM
Get a room , boys....l........

It is the offseason and Scoop is again becoming "mean girls".  So let's get back on track on some pertinent updates:

Miss Florida, Scoop's very own, now has her 15 minutes of fame fansite:  http://lauramckeeman.com/

She also has a MLB boy toy:  http://m.thebiglead.com/bigleadsports/#!/entry/laura-mckeeman-miss-florida-2012-is-dating-josh-rutledge-of,511114ced7fc7b567018a24d (http://m.thebiglead.com/bigleadsports/#!/entry/laura-mckeeman-miss-florida-2012-is-dating-josh-rutledge-of,511114ced7fc7b567018a24d)

BluJay, we know you are still mourning "Horse Bit" Carrie's marriage, but how do you like the new rhinoplasty Laura?