Sources: Blue considering NBA draft
Written by: Mark Strotman
Junior shooting guard Vander Blue is contemplating forgoing his senior year to enter the 2013 NBA draft, multiple sources told PaintTouches.com. Blue has not made a definitive decision, but he could announce his choice later this week. Should he declare, ... Continue reading → (http://painttouches.com/2013/04/09/sources-blue-considering-nba-draft/)
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http://painttouches.com/2013/04/09/sources-blue-considering-nba-draft/
Here we go.
Another interesting week for Marquette basketball and another week of angst in Scoop City ...
If he gets word that he would be a first round pick, he should go. So risky though since the NCAA forces you to make a final decision by April 16, before any workouts with teams can be done. Let the hand-wringing begin.
Good for him, I hope he makes it!
I won't be angst ridden about this. If he goes, I wish him the best of luck.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on April 09, 2013, 10:07:50 AM
If he gets word that he would be a first round pick, he should go. So risky though since the NCAA forces you to make a final decision by April 16, before any workouts with teams can be done. Let the hand-wringing begin.
I agree there's a ton of risk for Blue here. He should come back, get his degree, win a NC and he'll still be a year younger than most of the guys in his draft class. I find it hard to believe that his stock will go down at all if he comes back next year.
I, for one, am very surprised Blue would be "Buzz-cut"
Honestly, his stock is at an all-time high after his NCAA performance. Even coming back next season only risks decreasing that stock value. If he's hearing he's a guaranteed pick, especially first round, go forth, young man.
Quote from: 4th and State on April 09, 2013, 10:14:26 AM
I agree there's a ton of risk for Blue here. He should come back, get his degree, win a NC and he'll still be a year younger than most of the guys in his draft class. I find it hard to believe that his stock will go down at all if he comes back next year.
If he struggles shooting or gets injured or MU has a down year or some part of his game gets "exposed," his stock could easily drop. He wasn't even on the draft boards a month ago and now he's viewed as a potential late 1st Rounder. With more and more scouts watching closely, there are more and more chances that teams pick apart his game.
I'd love to see him back at MU next season and I really do think he needs another year to continue to develop his game. That said, strike while the iron's hot. If he goes, I'd have no problem with that and I'd wish him the best.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 09, 2013, 10:23:29 AM
If he struggles shooting or gets injured or MU has a down year or some part of his game gets "exposed," his stock could easily drop. He wasn't even on the draft boards a month ago and now he's viewed as a potential late 1st Rounder. With more and more scouts watching closely, there are more and more chances that teams pick apart his game.
I'd love to see him back at MU next season and I really do think he needs another year to continue to develop his game. That said, strike while the iron's hot. If he goes, I'd have no problem with than and I'd wish him the best.
Exactly. We all saw what happened with Dom James.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 09, 2013, 10:20:42 AM
Honestly, his stock is at an all-time high after his NCAA performance. Even coming back next season only risks decreasing that stock value. If he's hearing he's a guaranteed pick, especially first round, go forth, young man.
While I would agree that his stock is currently at an all time high, that all time high status is currently fringe first rounder. He could certainly come back and hit a new all time high next year of guaranteed first rounder. I guess I just disagree that he could
only hurt his draft stock by coming back. I concur that if he's hearing definitively that he will be drafted, he should strongly consider declaring.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 09, 2013, 10:24:21 AM
Exactly. We all saw what happened with Dom James.
James would have gone undrafted had he gone out his sophomore or Junior year.
Does Blue still have the option of testing the waters and doing workouts like James did after his sophomore season and McNeal did after his Junior season?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 09, 2013, 10:23:29 AM
If...some part of his game gets "exposed," his stock could easily drop. He wasn't even on the draft boards a month ago and now he's viewed as a potential late 1st Rounder. With more and more scouts watching closely, there are more and more chances that teams pick apart his game.
I guess I don't agree with this sentiment. You don't think that these scouts are going to watch every piece of game tape from this past year if they are considering drafting him? Or attempt to "expose" him if they bring him in for a workout? Teams are not just going to blindly draft him based on one tournament run without doign their due diligence. If he's going to be exposed, he will be exposed through the draft evaluation process by good scouting. This is what happened to James when he declared without an agent after his sophomore year...he got exposed in workouts.
But if he leaves and is not drafted in the first round, he gets no guaranteed money and has no degree, will have to pay to finish school.
Yes, go if you are going to get drafted in then first round. Big downside if you go and are not drafted in the first round.
Tough decision.
Just hope he's getting good advice. And not from Uncle Tim...
As the PT article points out,
"Ford also bumped Blue from the 90s of his top-100 list to No. 75..."
Hopefully, Vander takes the next week to figure out that the draft has 60 selections.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on April 09, 2013, 10:07:50 AM
If he gets word that he would be a first round pick, he should go. So risky though since the NCAA forces you to make a final decision by April 16, before any workouts with teams can be done. Let the hand-wringing begin.
Yet another example of how college athletics screws over the "student-athletes". Coaches are free to shop themselves around to other schools to earn their highest dollar, but players have to wander out into the wilderness. This rule really can hurt players (see Jereme Richmond). The decision should be made between a coach and the player: if the coach is willing to keep a scholly open, the player should be able to go right up until the minute the draft begins.
Quote from: Rockmic87 on April 09, 2013, 10:29:05 AM
James would have gone undrafted had he gone out his sophomore or Junior year.
Does Blue still have the option of testing the waters and doing workouts like James did after his sophomore season and McNeal did after his Junior season?
Wasn't James a fringe first round pick after his freshman season?
I can live with this either way. He would most likely be the best player on MU's team next year, if he stayed. However, if he leaves that frees up 30 minutes a game for the newcomers, who I will be excited to see getting more playing time.
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on April 09, 2013, 10:34:45 AM
Wasn't James a fringe first round pick after his freshman season?
Not really. He was still a short PG that couldn't shoot, just like he was when he declared after his sophomore year.
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on April 09, 2013, 10:33:25 AM
Yet another example of how college athletics screws over the "student-athletes". Coaches are free to shop themselves around to other schools to earn their highest dollar, but players have to wander out into the wilderness. This rule really can hurt players (see Jereme Richmond). The decision should be made between a coach and the player: if the coach is willing to keep a scholly open, the player should be able to go right up until the minute the draft begins.
+1
He should be able to head back to school unless he signs a contract. So can get drafted (or not), workout with the team, get invited as a free-agent to camp, and still go back as long as you do not sign a pro-contract.
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on April 09, 2013, 10:33:25 AM
Yet another example of how college athletics screws over the "student-athletes". Coaches are free to shop themselves around to other schools to earn their highest dollar, but players have to wander out into the wilderness. This rule really can hurt players (see Jereme Richmond). The decision should be made between a coach and the player: if the coach is willing to keep a scholly open, the player should be able to go right up until the minute the draft begins.
Agree completely. I have no idea why the NCAA does this, but allows its athletes to be drafted mid-career in sports like hockey and basketball.
Wrk592 needs to get his camera ready
Quote from: Terror Skink on April 09, 2013, 10:38:54 AM
Agree completely. I have no idea why the NCAA does this, but allows its athletes to be drafted mid-career in sports like hockey and basketball.
Did you mean baseball?
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on April 09, 2013, 10:36:56 AM
Not really. He was still a short PG that couldn't shoot, just like he was when he declared after his sophomore year.
Totally wrong. He would have been a first rounder had he declared. Dom James is the perfect example of a kid who should have declared when his stock was high. He didn't and he paid for it.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 09, 2013, 10:43:14 AM
Totally wrong. He would have been a first rounder had he declared. Dom James is the perfect example of a kid who should have declared when his stock was high. He didn't and he paid for it.
IN what way am I totally wrong? It is of my opinion that had he actually declared, his stock would have dropped considerably once scouts had a chance to work him out and measure his actual height. Where's your proof that he would have absolutely, positively been a first rounder?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 09, 2013, 10:43:14 AM
Totally wrong. He would have been a first rounder had he declared. Dom James is the perfect example of a kid who should have declared when his stock was high. He didn't and he paid for it.
Actually your wrong. He was smart to listen to the scouts and return!
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2007/02/nbadraftnet-to-dominic-james-stay-in.html
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 09, 2013, 10:37:46 AM
+1
He should be able to head back to school unless he signs a contract. So can get drafted (or not), workout with the team, get invited as a free-agent to camp, and still go back as long as you do not sign a pro-contract.
I think the NBA/NCAA put a stop to this. Now players have to declare/sign an agent the day before the spring signing period begins (april 16?). They can't go through anything before giving up amateur status.
I expected this.
If he is projected in the first round, he should go.
Second round? He should stay.
I suspect he'll be at MU next year... but I'm not an NBA scout.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on April 09, 2013, 10:26:48 AM
While I would agree that his stock is currently at an all time high, that all time high status is currently fringe first rounder. He could certainly come back and hit a new all time high next year of guaranteed first rounder. I guess I just disagree that he could only hurt his draft stock by coming back. I concur that if he's hearing definitively that he will be drafted, he should strongly consider declaring.
I don't think he's close to being a fringe first rounder, I think he's much closer to a fringe second rounder. I think it's too big of a risk for him to go. If he continues to improve his shot, he can have a real nice shot at being a first round pick.
Quote from: Rockmic87 on April 09, 2013, 10:49:02 AM
Actually your wrong. He was smart to listen to the scouts and return!
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2007/02/nbadraftnet-to-dominic-james-stay-in.html
Please note, this crackedsidewalks article is based on James declaring after his sophomore year. I believe the poster was saying James would have been drafted after his freshman year. Which is also what I thought was true.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 09, 2013, 10:49:08 AM
I think the NBA/NCAA put a stop to this. Now players have to declare/sign an agent the day before the spring signing period begins (april 16?). They can't go through anything before giving up amateur status.
The comment you quoted was a normative one rather than a positive one.
As you'll see here, James was not projected to be drafted after his freshman year, otherwise he would have a 2006 draft mock history. He was, however, projected to go in the first round during and after his sophomore year. Until, of course, he declared, was exposed, and his stock dropped considerably, thus forcing him to withdraw from the draft.
If he was exposed after his sophomore year, he would have been exposed after his freshman year, too.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dominic-James-595/mock-draft-history/ (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dominic-James-595/mock-draft-history/)
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 09, 2013, 10:37:46 AM
+1
He should be able to head back to school unless he signs a contract. So can get drafted (or not), workout with the team, get invited as a free-agent to camp, and still go back as long as you do not sign a pro-contract.
Not sure how much influence the NBA owners have in determining the rules, but they would not go for this at all. It would make it very risky to draft anyone who still has eligibilty left. The high picks would use it as a bargaining chip ("You don't want to pay me what I want? Fine. I will just go back to school and get drafted by someone else next year"). And the further down in the draft your picks are, the less likely you are to get a non-senior to sign a contract for any amount.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on April 09, 2013, 10:47:25 AM
IN what way am I totally wrong? It is of my opinion that had he actually declared, his stock would have dropped considerably once scouts had a chance to work him out and measure his actual height. Where's your proof that he would have absolutely, positively been a first rounder?
i don't know that i disagree with you, but the reason for him to leave early would have been what he did in his freshman year AND the potential for him to get better. he played great as a freshman, and had great strength and athleticism. he essentially would have forced NBA teams to decide if they felt he could develop an outside shot and maximize his potential. in staying at MU for three more year, and really not improving on his outside shot, NBA teams felt that he had reached his peak.
in some ways Vander is in the same situation. if he can come back and hit the three next year, he's in great shape...if he can't, he's in a worse spot then he is in now.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on April 09, 2013, 10:54:49 AM
As you'll see here, James was not projected to be drafted after his freshman year, otherwise he would have a 2006 draft mock history. He was, however, projected to go in the first round during and after his sophomore year. Until, of course, he declared, was exposed, and his stock dropped considerably, thus forcing him to withdraw from the draft.
If he was exposed after his sophomore year, he would have been exposed after his freshman year, too.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dominic-James-595/mock-draft-history/ (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dominic-James-595/mock-draft-history/)
Oh yay. Another thread turned into a pissing match about something the thread wasn't about.
If he goes it solves our 1 over scholarship issue. Rather see this than some kid transfers and all the speculation he got "Buzzed". Seems like a win win, especially if he gets drafted by the 2nd round.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 09, 2013, 10:56:09 AM
i don't know that i disagree with you, but the reason for him to leave early would have been what he did in his freshman year AND the potential for him to get better. he played great as a freshman, and had great strength and athleticism. he essentially would have forced NBA teams to decide if they felt he could develop an outside shot and maximize his potential. in staying at MU for three more year, and really not improving on his outside shot, NBA teams felt that he had reached his peak.
in some ways Vander is in the same situation. if he can come back and hit the three next year, he's in great shape...if he can't, he's in a worse spot then he is in now.
I agree with the first part. But teams don't usually use first round picks on sub-6 foot PG's that can't shoot. If they drafted him on potential, it would have been as a 2nd round pick.
And yes, I agree that Vander and James' situation are similar, which is why it was brought up in the first place.
Quote from: warriorchick on April 09, 2013, 10:55:19 AM
Not sure how much influence the NBA owners have in determining the rules, but they would not go for this at all. It would make it very risky to draft anyone who still has eligibilty left. The high picks would use it as a bargaining chip ("You don't want to pay me what I want? Fine. I will just go back to school and get drafted by someone else next year"). And the further down in the draft your picks are, the less likely you are to get a non-senior to sign a contract for any amount.
I agree the owners would not want this as you explain. But the NCAA should do what's best for the kids, not the billionaire owners.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 09, 2013, 11:07:41 AM
I agree the owners would not want this as you explain. But the NCAA should do what's best for the kids, not the billionaire owners.
When was the last time the NCAA did what's best for the kids?
Quote from: warriorchick on April 09, 2013, 10:55:19 AM
Not sure how much influence the NBA owners have in determining the rules, but they would not go for this at all. It would make it very risky to draft anyone who still has eligibilty left. The high picks would use it as a bargaining chip ("You don't want to pay me what I want? Fine. I will just go back to school and get drafted by someone else next year"). And the further down in the draft your picks are, the less likely you are to get a non-senior to sign a contract for any amount.
The MLB Draft works somewhat similarly. Although, that draft has about 200 rounds.
Go if you're a lock in the first round. Come back, otherwise.
Blue is really REALLY close to being a shoe-in for the first round, imo. He's also really young for his class and his maturity relative to the game was showing more and more as the season progressed. I personally think he should come back because he still has the ability to show tremendous improvement.
But someone here said it right: one freak injury or a senior season that shows no improvement will cost his chances.
He gone
Blue can do what he wants, but he's fooling himself if he thinks he's a first round pick...even in a weak draft.
Quote from: MUCrew on April 09, 2013, 11:11:36 AM
Go if you're a lock in the first round. Come back, otherwise.
Blue is really REALLY close to being a shoe-in for the first round, imo. He's also really young for his class and his maturity relative to the game was showing more and more as the season progressed. I personally think he should come back because he still has the ability to show tremendous improvement.
But someone here said it right: one freak injury or a senior season that shows no improvement will cost his chances.
Yeah, NBA teams are dying for a 6'3" two-guard without a consistent jumper. ::)
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on April 09, 2013, 10:54:49 AM
As you'll see here, James was not projected to be drafted after his freshman year, otherwise he would have a 2006 draft mock history. He was, however, projected to go in the first round during and after his sophomore year. Until, of course, he declared, was exposed, and his stock dropped considerably, thus forcing him to withdraw from the draft.
If he was exposed after his sophomore year, he would have been exposed after his freshman year, too.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dominic-James-595/mock-draft-history/ (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dominic-James-595/mock-draft-history/)
He wasn't projected after his freshman year because he didn't
declare after his freshman year. His best year statistically at MU was his freshman year and he had the Big East newcomers of the year award. Maybe he wouldn't have been a first rounder, but it was they year in which
without a doubt he would have been drafted highest.
Quote from: MUCrew on April 09, 2013, 11:11:36 AM
Go if you're a lock in the first round. Come back, otherwise.
Blue is really REALLY close to being a shoe-in for the first round, imo. He's also really young for his class and his maturity relative to the game was showing more and more as the season progressed. I personally think he should come back because he still has the ability to show tremendous improvement.
Is the really that close to being a first rounder? Is really even that close to be being drafted? I don't think I've seen one mock draft anywhere that has Blue being drafted this year, let alone the first round.
He' staying. He may test the waters to get feedback. But he will be overseas if he declares. He would be smart to get his degree from MU before he left. I think Vander recognizes that going in the 2nd round does not guarantee a roster spot in the NBA, and that its likely he'd join DJO overseas.
There are 30 picks in the first round. Assuming all positions will be drafted in equal numbers (not likely, but close enough for discussion purposes) that leaves 6 draft slots for each guard position.
I love VB, but even in this draft class I don't believe he's in the top 6 at either guard position.
If you come out early and don't get the guaranteed contract, probably a bad decision.
Speculation is fun, and it's what these sites are for. However ...
Whether projecting Vander as a first-round shoo-in or a fringe second-rounder, nobody here has enough information to make such a call with any accuracy at all.
We don't know yet how many U.S. underclassmen will go pro. We have no clue about which international players will be available, what positions they play or how good they are. We have no idea whether NBA teams are looking more for backcourt or frontcourt help this season.
So while it's easy for us to put on our Marquette-vision goggles and say, "Hey, Vander is good," we have little sense of context. Right now, there are too many unknowns even for the experts.
Selfishly, I hope Vander stays. I think returning to MU and improving would benefit him most. But I certainly wouldn't blame him for leaving if he gets solid intel that he'll be a first-rounder.
And I agree with the many folks here: Obviously, neither the NCAA nor the NBA gives a rat's rump about the kids. They should be ashamed of themselves for the rule change that prevents athletes from getting a true read of what NBA teams think of them before they have to declare for the draft. But since when do NCAA and NBA honchos feel any shame?
Quote from: avid1010 on April 09, 2013, 10:56:09 AM
in some ways Vander is in the same situation. if he can come back and hit the three next year, he's in great shape...if he can't, he's in a worse spot then he is in now.
I don't think so.
I don't know if anybody is going to draft Vander based upon upside as much as they are drafting him to fill a role. He's not a 7' athletic freak who is still learning to play, and he's not a freaky athletic 18 yr old PG like James.
If he doesn't improve his shot, he'll be the same guy next year... decent athlete, little undersized, role player.
Vander, ignore everybody on this board. Find someone you trust. Listen to them.
Quote from: MU82 on April 09, 2013, 11:38:33 AM
And I agree with the many folks here: Obviously, neither the NCAA nor the NBA gives a rat's rump about the kids. They should be ashamed of themselves for the rule change that prevents athletes from getting a true read of what NBA teams think of them before they have to declare for the draft. But since when do NCAA and NBA honchos feel any shame?
Never. I don't understand why athletes (except hockey and baseball) are treated so differently than any other student. If I could leave school after my junior year and get a good paying job with guaranteed salary, no one is going to stop me. No one is even going to stop me from asking companies if they'd hire me. And if I found nothing, I could come back and resume my schooling. But athletes get screwed.
Quote from: LittleMurs on April 09, 2013, 11:23:03 AM
He wasn't projected after his freshman year because he didn't declare after his freshman year. His best year statistically at MU was his freshman year and he had the Big East newcomers of the year award. Maybe he wouldn't have been a first rounder, but it was they year in which without a doubt he would have been drafted highest.
That's incorrect. He was in mock drafts in February of 2007, before he declared after the sophomore season. If they thought he would be drafted after his freshman season, he would have been in mock drafts during that season. And my point was that James was not going to be a first round pick after his freshman season. His stock was highest after his freshman year, no doubt, but that does not mean he was guaranteed to be drafted.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 09, 2013, 11:45:07 AM
Never. I don't understand why athletes (except hockey and baseball) are treated so differently than any other student. If I could leave school after my junior year and get a good paying job with guaranteed salary, no one is going to stop me. No one is even going to stop me from asking companies if they'd hire me. And if I found nothing, I could come back and resume my schooling. But athletes get screwed.
No one is saying he can't test the waters. What many are saying (myself included) is that he's not a first round pick. He's a 6'3" shooting guard without a consistent shot. There aren't a lot of NBA teams dying for a player like that.
Quote from: Groin_pull on April 09, 2013, 11:53:05 AM
No one is saying he can't test the waters. What many are saying (myself included) is that he's not a first round pick. He's a 6'3" shooting guard without a consistent shot. There aren't a lot of NBA teams dying for a player like that.
But that's just it. He can't go to workouts, or tryout for a team without losing amateur status. At least, that's what I thought the new restrictions were.
Quote from: Groin_pull on April 09, 2013, 11:53:05 AM
No one is saying he can't test the waters. What many are saying (myself included) is that he's not a first round pick. He's a 6'3" shooting guard without a consistent shot. There aren't a lot of NBA teams dying for a player like that.
You're wrong. The NCAA and NBA are saying he can't test the waters.
By changing the rules a couple of years ago, they have made it almost impossible for a borderline player to accurately gauge whether or not he should go pro.
It's purely an anti-athlete rule, and it sucks for Vander and everybody else who is screwed by it.
Myself and others have thrown April 16th out there as the NCAA draft deadline, which it is. However, I've been reading up on it, and it appears that, in a way, that deadline is irrelevant. Vander can still declare for the draft up to the NBA deadline of April 28th. The NCAA deadline is just the date which a player can withdraw that has ALREADY declared. As long as a Vander does not hire an agent, and trusts Buzz to keep a roster spot open, he can test the waters all the way up until April 28th. The following article lays it out:
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/57740/mason-plumlee-going-to-take-his-time (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/57740/mason-plumlee-going-to-take-his-time)
Quote from: LittleMurs on April 09, 2013, 10:32:20 AM
As the PT article points out,
"Ford also bumped Blue from the 90s of his top-100 list to No. 75..."
Hopefully, Vander takes the next week to figure out that the draft has 60 selections.
Of which only 30 are first rounders. I wish him well, in whatever he decides.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on April 09, 2013, 12:04:29 PM
Myself and others have thrown April 16th out there as the NCAA draft deadline, which it is. However, I've been reading up on it, and it appears that, in a way, that deadline is irrelevant. Vander can still declare for the draft up to the NBA deadline of April 28th. The NCAA deadline is just the date which a player can withdraw that has ALREADY declared. As long as a Vander does not hire an agent, and trusts Buzz to keep a roster spot open, he can test the waters all the way up until April 28th. The following article lays it out:
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/57740/mason-plumlee-going-to-take-his-time (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/57740/mason-plumlee-going-to-take-his-time)
Thanks for the link. It provides good info.
An April 28 deadline still sucks and still screws potential pros who are weighing the biggest decision of their young lives.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 09, 2013, 10:32:02 AM
Just hope he's getting good advice. And not from Uncle Tim...
Vander to Tennessee
Quote from: MU82 on April 09, 2013, 12:09:49 PM
Thanks for the link. It provides good info.
An April 28 deadline still sucks and still screws potential pros who are weighing the biggest decision of their young lives.
Absolutely. And, as the article lays out, the player can't actually contact teams without declaring, ruling out workouts, interviews, etc. The coach has to act as the mediator. Still not all that great for the player.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 09, 2013, 11:10:17 AM
When was the last time the NCAA did what's best for the kids?
All the time....the organization oversees almost 500,000 athletes every year, most of them having nothing to do with football or basketball. People keep forgetting about soccer, volleyball, track, water polo, etc, etc, etc.
Quote from: tower912 on April 09, 2013, 11:44:17 AM
Vander, ignore everybody on this board. Find someone you trust. Listen to them.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, are you saying he shouldn't trust us?
Quote from: MU82 on April 09, 2013, 12:01:29 PM
It's purely an anti-athlete rule, and it sucks for Vander and everybody else who is screwed by it.
So are HS recruits not considered athletes? Think about this rule from the other perspective: the HS recruit whose offer(s) is contingent upon a player leaving school (i.e. staying in the draft). IMO, the downside of a recruit being left in limbo during the spring signing period far outweighs the downside of a player (with borderline NBA talent) being forced to make a decision in the month following the tournament.
EDIT: Other scenario -- the player who loses a month contemplating transfer options because he may or may not get his schollie renewed depending on his teammate's decision.
Here's the list of SGs from draftexpress.com
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2013/
1st Round
2. Ben McLemore, Kansas
5. Victor Oladipo, Indiana
16. CJ McCollum, Lehigh
18. Archie Goodwin, Kentucky
22. Jamaal Franklin, SDSU
29. BJ Young, Arkansas
30. Allen Crabbe, Cal
2nd Round
3. Erick Green, Va.Tech
12. Nemanja Nedovic, foreign
14. CJ Wilcox, Washington
18. Michael Snaer, FSU
21. Tim Hardaway Jr., Michigan
22. Brandon Paul, Illinois
28. Carrick Felix, ASU
So, is Vander better than these guys? Is he better than BJ Young or Crabbe to have a shot at the first round? Is he better than Snaer, Hardaway, or Paul in the 2nd round? I'd say he's comparable to those guys at best, but that's an awfully big risk to take.
From nbadraft.net
http://nbadraft.net/2013mock_draft
1st Round
1. Ben McLemore, Kansas
10. Victor Oladipo, Indiana
14. CJ McCollum, Lehigh
16. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia
25. Tim Hardaway, Jr., Michigan
28. Allen Crabbe, Cal
2nd Round
34. Archie Goodwin, Kentucky
37. Lorenzo Brown, NC State
38. Jamaal Franklin, SDSU
46. BJ Young, Arkansas
47. Brandon Paul, Illinois
50. Michael Snaer, FSU
52. Carrick Felix, ASU
55. Brandon Triche, Syracuse
59. Seth Curry, Duke
60. Jordan Aboudou, France
Quote from: Litehouse on April 09, 2013, 12:41:57 PMSo, is Vander better than these guys? Is he better than BJ Young or Crabbe to have a shot at the first round? Is he better than Snaer, Hardaway, or Paul in the 2nd round? I'd say he's comparable to those guys at best, but that's an awfully big risk to take.
If that's the list and they draft 6 SGs in the first round, Vander should absolutely go. The only 3 guys on that list I'd put clearly ahead of Vander are McLemore, Oladipo, and Goodwin. McCollum is a great shooter but probably shorter than Vander and didn't play against high-level competition. Vander is younger than all the first-round projected players except McLemore, Goodwin, and Young. And Young's career already looks to be trending down; he should have declared after last year.
What sets Vander aside is that his potential is proven. His game has been getting markedly better every year and he's still only 20 years old.
But as tower said, we won't really have any meaningful input. I want Vander back, but I wouldn't at all begrudge him leaving and think he might be able to capitalize as I definitely feel he's a top-5 SG of the guys that will be available (my opinion). Hopefully he and Buzz can get a good assessment between now and the end of the month and make the best basketball decision for Van.
Is this really news?
Expected this the moment he won the Davidson game. He has to consider it.
The awesome Paint Touches piece on Blue's midrange game might point to the differentiator between Vander and the other borderline 1st round SGs. I haven't seen a pull-up J like that in a while from a guy so young.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 09, 2013, 12:21:52 PM
All the time....the organization oversees almost 500,000 athletes every year, most of them having nothing to do with football or basketball. People keep forgetting about soccer, volleyball, track, water polo, etc, etc, etc.
And most of them will go pro is something other than sports.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 09, 2013, 01:09:08 PM
And most of them will go pro is something other than sports.
Mostly for Enterprise Rent a Car....well, we also have about 50 here at work, solid kids. On my team is a swimmer from Penn. I have a Yale fencer as well.
I have awesome numbchuck skills
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 09, 2013, 01:11:37 PM
Mostly for Enterprise Rent a Car....well, we also have about 50 here at work, solid kids. On my team is a swimmer from Penn. I have a Yale fencer as well.
Ask the kid from Yale if (s)he can build a fence around your swimming pool. They hate that.
Add Ricky Ledo to the list of kids going into the draft. Never played for Providence. He'll likely go ahead of Vander too.
I've long had the thought that if the guy is good enough to make the NBA, he'll eventually make it there, whether it's through the draft or not. If he's not good enough to play at the NBA level, then he won't, at least, not long anyways.
I remember Ray Jackson from Michigan saying that he regrets not coming out when Rose and Howard did. I always thought 'well if you were a true NBA talent, you would have been there [NBA] regardless of when you left Michigan'.
Jackson's comments always sounded to me as sort of implying that the NBA has some sort of inefficiency to it--the league never finds the diamonds in the rough, I need to come out of the draft NOW because it's NOW or NEVER. I find it really difficult to agree with those thoughts and similar comments.
Quote from: Terror Skink on April 09, 2013, 01:44:21 PM
Add Ricky Ledo to the list of kids going into the draft. Never played for Providence. He'll likely go ahead of Vander too.
Yeah. I just dont see it for vander this year. I think he has HUGE talent, I just don't see him getting drafted in front of guys like Curry or Oriahki, two guys I see as the last picks in the 2nd round in mock drafts. 2014 will be his year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 09, 2013, 12:57:07 PM
If that's the list and they draft 6 SGs in the first round, Vander should absolutely go. The only 3 guys on that list I'd put clearly ahead of Vander are McLemore, Oladipo, and Goodwin. McCollum is a great shooter but probably shorter than Vander and didn't play against high-level competition. Vander is younger than all the first-round projected players except McLemore, Goodwin, and Young. And Young's career already looks to be trending down; he should have declared after last year.
What sets Vander aside is that his potential is proven. His game has been getting markedly better every year and he's still only 20 years old.
But as tower said, we won't really have any meaningful input. I want Vander back, but I wouldn't at all begrudge him leaving and think he might be able to capitalize as I definitely feel he's a top-5 SG of the guys that will be available (my opinion). Hopefully he and Buzz can get a good assessment between now and the end of the month and make the best basketball decision for Van.
Wow. Can't agree at all. Vander is not one of the top 5 sgs available. Plus, Russ Smith is now coming out.
But he COULD be next year. I think he would be throwing away a chance at being a top 25 pick for being a middle-second at best (and remember, NBA teams love to just overdraft the intl players in the 2nd round). He made a huge jump in ability this past year and could be the star of a top 10 team all year - getting more attention, winning the new Big East and potentially having one of the best postseason resumes of any guard available in 2014.
Quote from: Aughnanure on April 09, 2013, 03:24:08 PM
Wow. Can't agree at all. Vander is not one of the top 5 sgs available. Plus, Russ Smith is now coming out.
But he COULD be next year. I think he would be throwing away a chance at being a top 25 pick for being a middle-second at best (and remember, NBA teams love to just overdraft the intl players in the 2nd round). He made a huge jump in ability this past year and could be the star of a top 10 team all year - getting more attention, winning the new Big East and potentially having one of the best postseason resumes of any guard available in 2014.
But isn't that what he/his family have to weigh? Right now he is middle-second at best. You're assuming he has another jump in ability to make. You're assuming he would be the star next year. What if he's maxed out and next year he plays worse? Wouldn't it be better to take what you can get now and hope NBA teams think you have that next step and draft on potential?
...just playing devil's advocate here. Selfishly, I want Blue back badly.
An undersized SG with a shaky jumper has low odds of being a first round pick. I wouldn't take Vander in the first round if i was an NBA GM unless he went back to Marquette and became a more consistent jump shooter.
Quote from: El Duderino on April 09, 2013, 03:32:12 PM
An undersized SG with a shaky jumper has low odds of being a first round pick. I wouldn't take Vander in the first round if i was an NBA GM unless he went back to Marquette and became a more consistent jump shooter.
Define jump shooter - he' one of the best midrange jump shooters in D1... is that not valued? Let's hope it's overlooked, as I think he'll extend that out to 3 point range next year and be an absolute beast for us if he stays.
Quote from: Aughnanure on April 09, 2013, 03:24:08 PMWow. Can't agree at all. Vander is not one of the top 5 sgs available. Plus, Russ Smith is now coming out.
Russ Smith probably isn't even 6-feet tall and he's definitely a shooting guard. I doubt he goes ahead of Vander. Ledo I can see ahead of Van. Caldwell-Pope too, if he declares.
A lot of my ranking of Vander has to do with proven potential. McCollum hasn't really improved in the past 3 years and is smaller than Blue. Young is going backward. Crabbe, Franklin, Snaer, I'd take Van ahead of all those guys too.
Personally, I think potential means more in a player that has shown improvement. All these guys are 19-22 years old, but which ones have already demonstrated they have the drive, willingness, and capacity to improve their game. Has anyone demonstrated that better than Vander during their college career? Oladipo has, KCP has, McLemore, Ledo, and Goodwin seem like huge upside players, but there's no one else who has done more to prove that their potential is real (and not just pie in the sky) than Blue.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 09, 2013, 03:37:29 PM
Russ Smith probably isn't even 6-feet tall and he's definitely a shooting guard. I doubt he goes ahead of Vander. Ledo I can see ahead of Van. Caldwell-Pope too, if he declares.
A lot of my ranking of Vander has to do with proven potential. McCollum hasn't really improved in the past 3 years and is smaller than Blue. Young is going backward. Crabbe, Franklin, Snaer, I'd take Van ahead of all those guys too.
Personally, I think potential means more in a player that has shown improvement. All these guys are 19-22 years old, but which ones have already demonstrated they have the drive, willingness, and capacity to improve their game. Has anyone demonstrated that better than Vander during their college career? Oladipo has, KCP has, McLemore, Ledo, and Goodwin seem like huge upside players, but there's no one else who has done more to prove that their potential is real (and not just pie in the sky) than Blue.
And Russ Smith declared today.
Quote from: nyg on April 09, 2013, 04:00:09 PM
And Russ Smith declared today.
Good for Russ Smith. Vander shouls stay one more year. Russ Smith leaving Loserville and Vander staying leaves Looeyville weaker and Mu stronger, even if they are not in same conference anymore. Doubt if Smith is a first round pick. He had a better year than Vander, is a better shooter and may even be a better defender.
Quote from: Jajuannaman on April 09, 2013, 03:35:29 PM
Define jump shooter - he' one of the best midrange jump shooters in D1... is that not valued?
Two thoughts
1. That's still a pretty small sample over this season for Vander on mid-range to long two's and he'll have a tougher time getting those shots off on longer defenders in the pros.
2. Three point shooting is generally valued higher than taking mid-range to long two's for good reason, points per possession. Unless a guy in the NBA is an elite jump shooter inside the three point line, long two's are statistically the worst shots to take and many NBA coaches try designing their defenses in an effort to bait the other team into taking as many long two's as possible.
Keep in mind that making just 33% of three pointers is like shooting 50% on two pointers.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 09, 2013, 03:28:36 PM
But isn't that what he/his family have to weigh? Right now he is middle-second at best. You're assuming he has another jump in ability to make. You're assuming he would be the star next year. What if he's maxed out and next year he plays worse? Wouldn't it be better to take what you can get now and hope NBA teams think you have that next step and draft on potential?
...just playing devil's advocate here. Selfishly, I want Blue back badly.
Then I don't think he thinks he is ready for the NBA then. Plays worse? Give the guy more credit than that. Also, 2nd round money is not guaranteed! So no you don't take no money when you can get no money next year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 09, 2013, 03:37:29 PM
Russ Smith probably isn't even 6-feet tall and he's definitely a shooting guard. I doubt he goes ahead of Vander. Ledo I can see ahead of Van. Caldwell-Pope too, if he declares.
A lot of my ranking of Vander has to do with proven potential. McCollum hasn't really improved in the past 3 years and is smaller than Blue. Young is going backward. Crabbe, Franklin, Snaer, I'd take Van ahead of all those guys too.
Personally, I think potential means more in a player that has shown improvement. All these guys are 19-22 years old, but which ones have already demonstrated they have the drive, willingness, and capacity to improve their game. Has anyone demonstrated that better than Vander during their college career? Oladipo has, KCP has, McLemore, Ledo, and Goodwin seem like huge upside players, but there's no one else who has done more to prove that their potential is real (and not just pie in the sky) than Blue.
Russ would get drafted ahead of him. He can shoot better, has a much better handle, and can penetrate better. I think you have some really blue and gold glasses on when evaluating Vander and puitting him ahead of Hardaway and others. He's so much closer to that potential than he was last year, but he still has plenty to go (can we remember how frustrating his growth was from freshman to sophomore?).
If he is "guaranteed" a 1st round pick? Sure, go. But there is no way he is getting that guarantee with the new way of evaluations and how quick he has to decide.
Kansas's McLemore just declared. Like a floodgate opening up today.
Could he really be a first round pick? I know the draft is weak, but he's just not ready. He doesn't shoot well enough to be an NBA 2. He doesn't pass well enough to be a 1 (where his size would probably put him). I'm not ripping him as an NBA prospect. He needs a year to work on those skills.
Then again, if he really is a first round lock because of a weaker draft, make hay while the sun shines.
Quote from: nyg on April 09, 2013, 04:38:13 PM
Kansas's McLemore just declared. Like a floodgate opening up today.
Not a surprise, guaranteed top 5 pick.
Quote from: MUFanatic4Life on April 09, 2013, 05:06:44 PM
Not a surprise, guaranteed top 5 pick.
I'll even say a guaranteed top 3 pick.
Russ Smith declared, guess its better for him to strike while the iron is hot, but he is NBA bad.
Vander could have a longer NBA paycheck that Russ Smith.
Quote from: PTM on April 09, 2013, 05:12:13 PM
Russ Smith declared, guess its better for him to strike while the iron is hot, but he is NBA bad.
Vander could have a longer NBA paycheck that Russ Smith.
Yea, Smith is a 6' 170 pound shooting guard.
That said, he might be able to carve out an NBA career off the bench, but being with the right team would help. He's a really good defender, but in the NBA would need to defend point guards, while not being a point guard himself offensively.
Quote from: PTM on April 09, 2013, 05:08:06 PM
I'll even say a guaranteed top 3 pick.
But were will McGary slot in then?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 09, 2013, 05:30:28 PM
But were will McGary slot in then?
I'm not sure, but I feel bad for those NBA teams in the lottery this year looking to not return.
Still think McGary could be a top 15 pick, but he should stay one more year to ensure lottery money.
Quote from: ElDonBDon on April 09, 2013, 02:10:38 PM
I've long had the thought that if the guy is good enough to make the NBA, he'll eventually make it there, whether it's through the draft or not. If he's not good enough to play at the NBA level, then he won't, at least, not long anyways.
I remember Ray Jackson from Michigan saying that he regrets not coming out when Rose and Howard did. I always thought 'well if you were a true NBA talent, you would have been there [NBA] regardless of when you left Michigan'.
Jackson's comments always sounded to me as sort of implying that the NBA has some sort of inefficiency to it--the league never finds the diamonds in the rough, I need to come out of the draft NOW because it's NOW or NEVER. I find it really difficult to agree with those thoughts and similar comments.
Politely disagree. Yes, it's about talent. But it's also about timing and fit and opportunity. Say Jackson - to use the same argument, a guy I loved - came out when Rose/Howard did. Was he more of a well-known entity at that time? You could make the argument yes. If that's the case, and if he would have worked out for the right team...the one who had a hole that fit his skill set, who's to say?
I think it's obvious that had there not been any injuries on Utah in Wes' rookie year, he would not be the semi-star he is today. He probably wouldn't have received that much of an opportunity to showcase his talents, and he therefore would never have received his guaranteed contract. So yes, it's about talent, but timingl/luck play just as important of a role.
Quote from: El Duderino on April 09, 2013, 05:27:44 PM
Yea, Smith is a 6' 170 pound shooting guard.
That said, he might be able to carve out an NBA career off the bench, but being with the right team would help. He's a really good defender, but in the NBA would need to defend point guards, while not being a point guard himself offensively.
Russ Smith has to be one of the dumbest players we faced all season, and the NBA knows that.
Great college player, not so much at the next level.
Quote from: PTM on April 09, 2013, 05:33:29 PM
I'm not sure, but I feel bad for those NBA teams in the lottery this year looking to not return.
Still think McGary could be a top 15 pick, but he should stay one more year to ensure lottery money.
Chad Ford has him at #12 in his first mock. Could still fall out, but right now he's considered in the lottery.
ESPN's Ford also has Michigan State freshman Gary Harris at #10 in his mock, possibly another SG to add to the list. Hasn't announced his intentions yet though and it's likely he returns..
Stumbled upon this old Gary Parrish article about Vander in high school with the UW message board fiasco that led to his decommitment.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/11776517
So I'm glad that no posters here are going off and writing BS about Vander on here with all the indecision this week. I'd say the majority agree that he has all the talent in the world to make it as a pro, but he'd be better served to stay one more year (improve his shooting, possibly run some point, etc.).
Selfishly, I hope like hell he stays, and think that he will. But if we can reign praise on him during his S16, S16, E8 runs, it's only right that guys show support if he declares. Here's hoping that the Otule return helps solidify Vander staying for one more.
Oladipo declared for the draft today.
Russ Smith declared today, yes, but that doesn't mean anything good for Russ Smith. Word is his father forced him to declare in hopes of getting rich. I would be very surprised if he ever plays for an NBA team. He'll be in Europe in six months.
Vander is 20,000 times the NBA prospect Russ Smith is. Better handle, bigger, better defender, Russ can shoot but it'll be a lot harder when every guy has 6 inches on him and is just as quick. If he stays in the draft he is making a colossal mistake. Peyton Siva is a better NBA prospect. At least he has a position.
Blue said on twitter less than a minute ago, "Sky is the limit."
Might mean something, might not.
Quote from: MUFanatic4Life on April 09, 2013, 09:23:13 PM
Blue said on twitter less than a minute ago, "Sky is the limit."
Might mean something, might not.
I just noticed that, too. Also, DJO tweeted "call me" to Vander about 8 hours ago. Hope he has wise advice.
Quote from: MUFanatic4Life on April 09, 2013, 09:23:13 PM
Blue said on twitter less than a minute ago, "Sky is the limit."
Might mean something, might not.
If only Al were still alive. He'd know how to interpret tweets better than anybody.
I don't really see any way Vander is a first round pick this year. He should come back, do some more damage in the tourney, get his degree, then come out. He still has a lot of room improvement in his game, especially his jump shot. If he can improve his shot and perhaps show some teams that he can play point guard, he will be a much better NBA prospect.
All this talk of how Vander compares to other shooting guards in the draft is meaningless.
It's not a shooting guard draft and, outside the lottery, teams don't draft for position because they don't count on non-lottery players to have an immediate impact. Russ Smith is no more/less of a concern for Blue than Kelly Olnyyk or Tony Mitchell or Doug McDermott.
This is silly. He's not a first rounder. I seriously doubt he's a second rounder.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 09, 2013, 05:59:05 PM
Russ Smith declared today, yes, but that doesn't mean anything good for Russ Smith. Word is his father forced him to declare in hopes of getting rich. I would be very surprised if he ever plays for an NBA team. He'll be in Europe in six months.
Vander is 20,000 times the NBA prospect Russ Smith is. Better handle, bigger, better defender, Russ can shoot but it'll be a lot harder when every guy has 6 inches on him and is just as quick. If he stays in the draft he is making a colossal mistake. Peyton Siva is a better NBA prospect. At least he has a position.
No he is not. That is a ridiculous statement.
Quote from: Groin_pull on April 09, 2013, 10:44:51 PM
This is silly. He's not a first rounder. I seriously doubt he's a second rounder.
I dunno. Marquette's built a rep these past 4-5 years and also teams are starting to pick some experience higher in the draft instead of raw foreign players. I think Vander could be drafted at highest early second round this year if he has good workouts. Selfishly I also would like to see him return but if he feels it's his time then no one can fault him for his own decision.
I don't see the point in worrying about it. I'm sure Buzz will make sure he makes the right decision one way or the other. Its an incredibly weak draft and his stock is higher than it has been in three years. He's only 20 years old and has a ton of talent.
That being said, one more year at Marquette refining his skills and I honestly believe he will be a lottery pick.
Vander is a second rounder.
And he'll be lucky to be selected because of weak draft years like this, NBA teams - that are already shedding contracts - like to "invest" in young Euros in the 2nd round and stash them away to avoid paying them (but hold their rights).
I wouldn't look too deep into Vander's tweets. He's tweeted stuff like that for as long as I've followed him.
Quote from: MUFanatic4Life on April 09, 2013, 09:23:13 PM
Blue said on twitter less than a minute ago, "Sky is the limit."
Might mean something, might not.
Superb analysis.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 09, 2013, 05:59:05 PM
Russ Smith declared today, yes, but that doesn't mean anything good for Russ Smith. Word is his father forced him to declare in hopes of getting rich. I would be very surprised if he ever plays for an NBA team. He'll be in Europe in six months.
Vander is 20,000 times the NBA prospect Russ Smith is. Better handle, bigger, better defender, Russ can shoot but it'll be a lot harder when every guy has 6 inches on him and is just as quick. If he stays in the draft he is making a colossal mistake. Peyton Siva is a better NBA prospect. At least he has a position.
what rubbish
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 09, 2013, 05:59:05 PM
Russ Smith declared today, yes, but that doesn't mean anything good for Russ Smith. Word is his father forced him to declare in hopes of getting rich. I would be very surprised if he ever plays for an NBA team. He'll be in Europe in six months.
Vander is 20,000 times the NBA prospect Russ Smith is. Better handle, bigger, better defender, Russ can shoot but it'll be a lot harder when every guy has 6 inches on him and is just as quick. If he stays in the draft he is making a colossal mistake. Peyton Siva is a better NBA prospect. At least he has a position.
brew, you know I agree with you often, but this is silly hyperbole. 20,000 times? So if Vander goes in the second round, Smith won't go until the 40,000th round?
Russ Smith averaged 25 points in Louisville's first five tournament games. He obviously can score.
He is too small to play 2 in the NBA and he would have been best served returning to Louisville and playing some point. But these guys often don't do what's best for them, and Vander might not, either. Smith is an intriguing prospect -- maybe an Iverson Ultra Lite or a Mo Williams type. Quick, great penetrator, good finisher.
Vander definitely has a better NBA body. I guess if Vander comes out, we'll see soon enough where NBA teams rank the two of them.
Russ Smith has a Kemba Walker type of body and Kemba is making his way just fine in the league right now.
Russ Smith reminds me of Nate Robinson.
I simply see Russ Smith as another Scottie Reynolds or Jordan Taylor. Great college player, but not a pro. If he proves me wrong, so be it, but let's not pretend he's the second coming of Allen Iverson.
Loks like Cody Zeller is leaving. Add another to first round.
Quote from: nyg on April 10, 2013, 10:01:05 AM
Loks like Cody Zeller is leaving. Add another to first round.
Good decision. Strike while the iron is, well, still warm enough that not all scouts have realized how soft you are.
Quote from: MU82 on April 10, 2013, 06:34:19 AM
brew, you know I agree with you often, but this is silly hyperbole. 20,000 times? So if Vander goes in the second round, Smith won't go until the 40,000th round?
Russ Smith averaged 25 points in Louisville's first five tournament games. He obviously can score.
He is too small to play 2 in the NBA and he would have been best served returning to Louisville and playing some point. But these guys often don't do what's best for them, and Vander might not, either. Smith is an intriguing prospect -- maybe an Iverson Ultra Lite or a Mo Williams type. Quick, great penetrator, good finisher.
Vander definitely has a better NBA body. I guess if Vander comes out, we'll see soon enough where NBA teams rank the two of them.
Yes, he meant he wouldn't go till the 40,000th round.
(http://i.imgur.com/71CKF2p.png)
Quote from: nyg on April 10, 2013, 10:01:05 AM
Loks like Cody Zeller is leaving. Add another to first round.
i guess I wasn't paying enough attention to Indiana this year... Boy did they underachieve.
Quote from: MU82 on April 10, 2013, 06:34:19 AM
brew, you know I agree with you often, but this is silly hyperbole. 20,000 times? So if Vander goes in the second round, Smith won't go until the 40,000th round?
20,000 times 0 is still 0. I think Vander may be more than 20,000 as good a prospect as Smith. Vander can improve his shot, but I'm not sure how much better Smith will get with his decision-making.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 10, 2013, 07:25:21 AM
Russ Smith reminds me of Nate Robinson.
+1
Russ Smith is the better NBA prospect than Vander. Russ will find a niche, like Robinson, because he can shoot. Blue's shot isn't that good and his defense is above average, but not the level of JFB or Wes. Wes and JFB developed their shot in the NBA because of their defense always kept them on a roster. I don't think that could happen with Blue...
I love watching Russ Smith play. Good talent but you never know what in God's name he's gonna do next. 1 on 5 "fastbreak" at any and all times. Contested 3-pointer when the shot clock just got reset and there's 1:30 left in the National Championship. Has Nate Robinson written all over him. Great call, Lenny.
Quote from: sixstrings03 on April 10, 2013, 10:33:34 AM
i guess I wasn't paying enough attention to Indiana this year... Boy did they underachieve.
Musta been coached by the same guy who could only get a Marquette team with two future pros to the NIT.
Quote from: oneposteagle on April 10, 2013, 02:39:14 PM
I love watching Russ Smith play. Good talent but you never know what in God's name he's gonna do next. 1 on 5 "fastbreak" at any and all times. Contested 3-pointer when the shot clock just got reset and there's 1:30 left in the National Championship. Has Nate Robinson written all over him. Great call, Lenny.
He was an absolute train wreck for almost the entire game the other night. The fact they won is a real testament to that team and Pitino.
Russ is fast and can shoot, but he's too small.
Occasionally, Michigan posted up someone on Russ and he got used.
Russ took ill-advised shots and made pressured (bad) passes.
Yes, he can get hot but he's too small, too short, and too tempermental to be drafted in the first round, much less second.
EDIT:
# of players chosen in the NBA draft 6'0" and under
2012 - 0
2011 - 1 (Isaiah Thomas)
2010 - 0
2009 - 3 (Jonny Flynn, Ty Lawson, Patty Mills)
2008 - 2 (DJ Augustin, Sean Singletary)
2007 - 2 (Aaron Brooks, Taurean Green)
2006 - 2 (Dee Brown (IL), Will Blalock)
2005 - 1 (Nate Robinson)
Quote from: Warriors10 on April 10, 2013, 11:45:58 AM
+1
Russ Smith is the better NBA prospect than Vander. Russ will find a niche, like Robinson, because he can shoot. Blue's shot isn't that good and his defense is above average, but not the level of JFB or Wes. Wes and JFB developed their shot in the NBA because of their defense always kept them on a roster. I don't think that could happen with Blue...
Okay...forget Russ and Vander. While they play the same position, they are completely different players. What about Russ and DJO? If DJO, who is bigger, stronger, a better shooter, and just as good a ball-handler (if not better) than Smith can't stick, why on God's green earth would ANYONE think Russ Smith is going to find some magical niche? There isn't a single thing Russ Smith does decidedly better than DJO. I don't think he's any better at penetrating the lane or defending. Maybe Russ is a better distributor, but it's not like anyone is going to confuse him with being a point guard any time in the next century.
If DJO isn't a NBA player, there is no way in hell Russ Smith is.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 11, 2013, 03:54:14 PM
Okay...forget Russ and Vander. While they play the same position, they are completely different players. What about Russ and DJO? If DJO, who is bigger, stronger, a better shooter, and just as good a ball-handler (if not better) than Smith can't stick, why on God's green earth would ANYONE think Russ Smith is going to find some magical niche? There isn't a single thing Russ Smith does decidedly better than DJO. I don't think he's any better at penetrating the lane or defending. Maybe Russ is a better distributor, but it's not like anyone is going to confuse him with being a point guard any time in the next century.
If DJO isn't a NBA player, there is no way in hell Russ Smith is.
+1
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 11, 2013, 03:54:14 PM
If DJO isn't a NBA player, there is no way in hell Russ Smith is.
I would agree....follow-up question, is DJO better than Vander? At this stage, DJO was better senior year than Vander is today end of junior year. Potential, might be a different story, but I think that's part of what Vander has to figure out and weigh. Does he come out now, maybe get drafted. Stay in next year, and likely get drafted. Some people keep saying his stock will never be higher, but if that is the case why are so many in the draft mocking business saying he's a 1st rounder next year and a nondraftee this year...sure seems to me that they think his stock will be higher next year.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2013, 04:08:06 PM
I would agree....follow-up question, is DJO better than Vander? At this stage, DJO was better senior year than Vander is today end of junior year. Potential, might be a different story, but I think that's part of what Vander has to figure out and weigh. Does he come out now, maybe get drafted. Stay in next year, and likely get drafted. Some people keep saying his stock will never be higher, but if that is the case why are so many in the draft mocking business saying he's a 1st rounder next year and a nondraftee this year...sure seems to me that they think his stock will be higher next year.
DJO was essentially the same player when he graduated than he was when he started here. You didn't see the leaps and bounds improvement we've seen out of Vander. DJO was also 2 years older than Vander when he entered the draft (if Van were to enter now). I'd say without a doubt Vander would be more attractive to a NBA GM than DJO was when he came out.
Vander is faster, taller and is a better defender than DJO. (Might have a better handle too.) Vander's ceiling is higher IMO.
Agree that Van has a higher ceiling. Part of the calculus has to be his year over year improvement. He had a huge jump between Sophomore and Junior years. The hard question is to determine how big his jump will be going forward and whether that's better developed at MU or as a pro (although maybe not in the NBA right away). Given Buzz' ability to maximize talent, I'd like to think one more year at MU enhances his chances of seeing his name called in Rd. 1 next year thereby eliminating the pressure associated with a 'cut' contract at best.
So do we have to wait until Monday to know what his decision is?
No he has until April 28th.
Quote from: Terror Skink on April 11, 2013, 04:52:46 PM
No he has until April 28th.
I found the following text in an article on ESPN about Russ Smith possibly declaring:
"The NBA's early-entry deadline for the draft is April 28. Per NCAA mandate, however, players with remaining eligibility must withdraw from the draft by Tuesday (April 16) to preserve it."
Really sucks for the college players that they made this rule change.
Right, but Vander can declare for the draft up to April 28. The NCAA deadline is only relevant for a player that has already declared and decides to withdraw.