MUScoop

Apparently she was on the Today show yesterday ....

She had a GPA of 4.5, SAT 2120 and worked last summer as a Senate page.

She was accepted and is going to Michigan.  She was rejected by Princeton, Yale, Vanderbilt and Penn.

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The Wall Street Journal
March 30, 2013

To (All) the Colleges That Rejected Me
If only I had a tiger mom or started a fake charity.

By Suzy Lee Weiss

Ms. Weiss is a senior at Taylor Allderdice High School in Pittsburgh.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324000704578390340064578654.html?mod=WSJ_article_comments#articleTabs%3Darticle

Like me, millions of high-school seniors with sour grapes are asking themselves this week how they failed to get into the colleges of their dreams. It's simple: For years, they—we—were lied to.

Colleges tell you, "Just be yourself." That is great advice, as long as yourself has nine extracurriculars, six leadership positions, three varsity sports, killer SAT scores and two moms. Then by all means, be yourself! If you work at a local pizza shop and are the slowest person on the cross-country team, consider taking your business elsewhere.

What could I have done differently over the past years?

For starters, had I known two years ago what I know now, I would have gladly worn a headdress to school. Show me to any closet, and I would've happily come out of it. "Diversity!" I offer about as much diversity as a saltine cracker. If it were up to me, I would've been any of the diversities: Navajo, Pacific Islander, anything. Sen. Elizabeth Warren, I salute you and your 1/32 Cherokee heritage.

I also probably should have started a fake charity. Providing veterinary services for homeless people's pets. Collecting donations for the underprivileged chimpanzees of the Congo. Raising awareness for Chapped-Lips-in-the-Winter Syndrome. Fun-runs, dance-a-thons, bake sales—as long as you're using someone else's misfortunes to try to propel yourself into the Ivy League, you're golden.

Having a tiger mom helps, too. As the youngest of four daughters, I noticed long ago that my parents gave up on parenting me. It has been great in certain ways: Instead of "Be home by 11," it's "Don't wake us up when you come through the door, we're trying to sleep." But my parents also left me with a dearth of hobbies that make admissions committees salivate. I've never sat down at a piano, never plucked a violin. Karate lasted about a week and the swim team didn't last past the first lap. Why couldn't Amy Chua have adopted me as one of her cubs?

Then there was summer camp. I should've done what I knew was best—go to Africa, scoop up some suffering child, take a few pictures, and write my essays about how spending that afternoon with Kinto changed my life. Because everyone knows that if you don't have anything difficult going on in your own life, you should just hop on a plane so you're able to talk about what other people have to deal with.

Or at least hop to an internship. Get a precocious-sounding title to put on your resume. "Assistant Director of Mail Services." "Chairwoman of Coffee Logistics." I could have been a gopher in the office of someone I was related to. Work experience!

To those kids who by age 14 got their doctorate, cured a disease, or discovered a guilt-free brownie recipe: My parents make me watch your "60 Minutes" segments, and they've clipped your newspaper articles for me to read before bed. You make us mere mortals look bad. (Also, I am desperately jealous and willing to pay a lot to learn your secrets.)

To those claiming that I am bitter—you bet I am! An underachieving selfish teenager making excuses for her own failures? That too! To those of you disgusted by this, shocked that I take for granted the wonderful gifts I have been afforded, I say shhhh—"The Real Housewives" is on.

Suzy Lee Weiss and the Age of Entitlement

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dinagachman/2013/04/03/suzy-lee-weiss-and-the-age-of-entitlement/

By now you've probably read the Wall Street Journal op-ed by Pittsburgh high school senior Suzy Lee Weiss called "To (All) the Colleges That Rejected Me." The post has some supporters, who are calling Weiss a hero and telling her she's "right on," and an equal amount of detractors calling her a whiny, spoiled brat. I let the story sink in for a few days to make sure I wasn't having a knee-jerk reaction, and nope – I'm 100% sure this girl is not a hero.

First, I know that getting into college is incredibly difficult and frustrating (and at times rigged), never mind all of the debt that piles up once you do get in, or the lack of dream jobs waiting for you once you graduate. That said, Weiss rants about the fact that she didn't get into any good schools because she's not a minority and she and her entire generation were "lied to" because they were always told to "just be yourself" and you'll get into school. I'm not sure what the adults in Pittsburgh are smoking, but I've never heard of teachers or parents telling kids to "just be yourself" to get into school.

That's the most horrible advice I've ever heard and I don't believe that's the refrain Weiss heard all throughout her life. I also didn't believe that her real name was "Suzy Lee Weiss" since that sounds about as real as "Billy Jo Witherspoon," but it turns out Weiss is real and that's her name. In any case, did she truly never hear that it's important to do things like, oh, I don't know: Study, join clubs, learn instruments and volunteer and do whatever you can to give yourself an edge over the hundreds of thousands of other applicants you're competing against? In the article, Weiss basically says that she didn't join anything and didn't do that well on her SATs but she still expected to get a flurry of acceptances? How is this girl a hero?

She says that if she knew then what she knows now, she "probably should have started a fake charity." How about starting a real charity? Something small but meaningful, like donating food to your local women's shelter? Weiss is also cynical about not getting an internship, since internships are all lame anyways. Well, yeah. No one adores fetching coffee for the CEO but you know what – it's a step, and it'll look a lot better on your resume than "2011-2012: I whined and watched Honey Boo Boo." Weiss and her entitled peers probably have the entire World War II generation turning in their graves.

I probably sound like one of those "I walked 40 miles in the snow to work..." people, but I don't care.

Maybe Weiss was writing a satire and I don't get the joke. Oddly enough, I sent the article to my mom, who is in her sixties, and she thought it was "funny." Am I missing something? She also said, "Well this generation is different," as if that's an excuse. I know that for every Suzy Lee Weiss there are hundreds of high school students who are working hard and starting real charities and they're too busy to complain. But the scary thing is, there are also a lot of Suzy Lee Weisses – just look at the comments on her post. That makes me sad, because I think hard work is admirable and not something that should slip away just because some people think they can skip the internships and assistant jobs and jump right into the CFO chair.

I've had interns say to me, "It's not my job to make copies," and "I don't want to be anyone's assistant" as they eyeball the CEO's chair in the conference room. Ambition can be good, and having big goals is fantastic, but they don't just magically happen and 80% of the "overnight success" stories we hear actually took years of hard work, struggle, rejection, and perseverance.

Maybe the joke's on me though, and Suzy Lee Weiss will announce her late acceptance to Yale soon (because of her article). I think what's more upsetting than a teenager complaining (that's kind of a teenager's MO, right?) is all of the people calling her a hero. The heroes are the highs school seniors who worked hard, pushed themselves, joined the band even though they'd rather be watching Real Housewives, and got into the school of their dreams against all odds. Suzy Lee Weiss isn't a hero. At least she admits that she's an "underachieving selfish teenager making excuses for her own failures."

That might make her wily, but it doesn't make her admirable.

I weep for Suzy Lee's future husband....she sounds like a very bitter person.

Suzy Lee Weiss...

But I thought she was half-Chinese!

(http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Video/130404/tdy_suzy_weiss_130404.video-260x195.jpg)

Was she a legacy?
Did she apply for a major without sufficient (competitive) credentials?
Is she driven? Like "low-income, overcoming odds" driven?

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 04, 2013, 01:26:16 PM
I weep for Suzy Lee's future husband....she sounds like a very bitter person.

She sounds like the ideal spokesperson for today's youth.


Bitter and entitled.

You get from life what you put into it.  If she is only willing to put in average work (at my school, there was no such thing as a GPA greater than a 4.0) then why should she get to attend the best of the best Ivy League schools?  How naive.  The competition at the top schools is beyond numbers.  Her measurable stats were great.  But if that is all she had to stand on, then it is no surprise that she got left out.

Wait, she is going to Michigan?  A top flight B1G school, and she is complaining?

GET BENT.

She didn't get her way so it's obviously someone else's fault. I don't see the problem with what she wrote.

Try to view the situation from her perspective. Stellar grades and test scores should be enough if the system works, right? Yet, there are hundreds of students , not nearly as qualified as she, who will be attending Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. merely because they "played the game."
Aside from out of state tuition at Michigan being nearly as much as a select university, there's nothing wrong with bein' a Wolverine.

I'm sure Michigan is pumped to have such a thoughtful, humble and modest student enrolling in their class this fall.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 04, 2013, 01:43:52 PM
Try to view the situation from her perspective. Stellar grades and test scores should be enough if the system works, right? Yet, there are hundreds of students , not nearly as qualified as she, who will be attending Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. merely because they "played the game."
Aside from out of state tuition at Michigan being nearly as much as a select university, there's nothing wrong with bein' a Wolverine.

Who are these hundreds of students that are not nearly as qualified as she, who will be attending Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. merely because they "played the game."

What "game" are you referring to?

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 04, 2013, 01:47:17 PM
Who are these hundreds of students that are not nearly as qualified as she, who will be attending Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. merely because they "played the game."

What "game" are you referring to?

There's definitely a "game" involved and she clearly knows what it  is, she apparently didn't feel the need to participate in it.  I get that it's annoying, but that's life and unfortunately it doesn't get any better.

Ok, I guess I'm thick ... again what is the "game" that you must play to get into an elite school like Harvard?

Quote from: MU B2002 on April 04, 2013, 01:34:51 PM

She sounds like the ideal spokesperson for today's youth.

Bitter and entitled.

As someone who deals with "today's youth" on an everyday basis, I see some of that.  But honestly I think most of today's youth are more with it than I was at that age.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 04, 2013, 02:03:06 PM
Ok, I guess I'm thick ... again what is the "game" that you must play to get into an elite school like Harvard?

What I mean by that is all of the extra curriculars, charities, clubs etc and all the extras to polish your application.  I personally remember throwing a bunch of garbage on my application that I spent minimal hours participating in.  I'm not saying every application is BS, but I'd imagine there is quite a bit a fluff on most applications.

Having said that, she knew exactly what these schools were looking for and didn't do anything about it so she has no one to blame but herself.  If she didn't know this at the time, she should be blaming her counselors intead.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 04, 2013, 01:43:52 PM
Try to view the situation from her perspective. Stellar grades and test scores should be enough if the system works, right? Yet, there are hundreds of students , not nearly as qualified as she, who will be attending Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. merely because they "played the game."
Aside from out of state tuition at Michigan being nearly as much as a select university, there's nothing wrong with bein' a Wolverine.

That's where my head is.  And if she did the same work she currently did but was able to check a box or two, I'm willing to bet she would have been admitted at some of those other schools.  BOX CHECK....what BOXES can I check to get in.   Reverse discrimination is awesome, and it exists...so says the SCOTUS.  

My viewpoints are shaped by a good friend at UCLA in their admissions department.  I'll leave it at that.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 04, 2013, 02:03:06 PM
Ok, I guess I'm thick ... again what is the "game" that you must play to get into an elite school like Harvard?

You need to "play the game" of going above and beyond to make yourself stand out. That means giving up leisure time and participating in the extracurriculars, running for student council, doing charity work, having a low-level internship, etc. Everyone who applies to Ivy League schools (and has a realistic chance of getting in) has the same grades and test scores. They can't accept everyone.

It's no different in the business/working world. All of your peers are basically the same. If you don't "play the game" and figure out a way to standout, you're going to get overlooked.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2013, 02:21:41 PM
You need to "play the game" of going above and beyond to make yourself stand out. That means giving up leisure time and participating in the extracurriculars, running for student council, doing charity work, having a low-level internship, etc. Everyone who applies to Ivy League schools (and has a realistic chance of getting in) has the same grades and test scores. They can't accept everyone.

It's no different in the business/working world. All of your peers are basically the same. If you don't "play the game" and figure out a way to standout, you're going to get overlooked.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2013, 02:18:38 PM

That's where my head is.  And if she did the same work she currently did but was able to check a box or two, I'm willing to bet she would have been admitted at some of those other schools.  BOX CHECK....what BOXES can I check to get in.   Reverse discrimination is awesome, and it exists...so says the SCOTUS. 

My viewpoints are shaped by a good friend at UCLA in their admissions department.  I'll leave it at that.

So these admission people are boobs that cannot tell the different between a "box checker" and a truly talented kid?

I feel so bad for her......  ::)


She clearly does know how to play the game. She's doing it right now for media attention. Part of me thinks this is working out exactly how she planned it all along...

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 04, 2013, 02:29:37 PM
So these admission people are boobs that cannot tell the different between a "box checker" and a truly talented kid?

When I was a HS school, I met with an admissions employee at Northwestern. She told me that after they receive their thousands of applications, they accept the best of the best, reject those who are underqualified and everyone else is basically the same. The school meets their quotas, accept legacies and it's more or less a crapshoot for everyone else.

In theory, if my application had 6 boxes checked and someone else's had 7, they'd rank ahead of me. Does it mean I'm not as qualified as that other applicant? Not necessarily. It just means he/she did a little bit more. Like I said, schools can't accept everyone.

Michigan is a great, nay, superb school.  I'd even argue that it's better than Vandy by almost every measure.  

In any case, my advice to this girl is to stop comparing yourself to others; use your own past achievements as a measuring stick.  I find that going through life is much easier that way.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 04, 2013, 01:43:52 PM
Try to view the situation from her perspective. Stellar grades and test scores should be enough if the system works, right? Yet, there are hundreds of students , not nearly as qualified as she, who will be attending Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. merely because they "played the game."
Aside from out of state tuition at Michigan being nearly as much as a select university, there's nothing wrong with bein' a Wolverine.

I understand what you are saying, but there are still limited spots at any school.  There is not a minimum criteria that guarantees you a spot at Harvard or Yale.  In my opinion, the system did work...she got into Michigan.  I also have zero problem with what she wrote.  Lot of truth there.

Harvard received 35,023 applications.  They accepted 2,029 for a 5.44% acceptance rate.  If you back out their early admits last fall, the regular decision, acceptance rate was 3%.  Princeton and Yale are essentially the same.  All the ivies sent their regular decisions last Thursday (March 28) at 5PM ET.

Does she honestly think she is fits the profile of these 2,029 kids?

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College admits 2,029
Record financial aid helps cast Class of '17 as 'one of the best'

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/03/college-admits-2029-5-8-percent-of-applicants/

Letters and email notifications of admission were sent today to 2,029 students, 5.8 percent of the applicant pool of 35,023.  Admitted students have until May 1 to accept their offers.

"Unprecedented levels of financial aid played a major role in producing a record applicant pool and an admitted group that promises to be one of the best in Harvard's history," said William R. Fitzsimmons, dean of admissions and financial aid. "The leadership of President Drew Faust, Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences Michael Smith, and Dean of the College Evelynn Hammonds in providing a record $182 million in need-based financial aid affirms Harvard's longstanding commitment to enroll the nation's and the world's best students regardless of economic background."

"We expect that nearly 60 percent of the students admitted to the Class of 2017 will need financial assistance in order to attend," said Sarah C. Donahue, director of financial aid.  "Their families will pay an average of only $12,000 per year. About 20 percent of Harvard families, those with normal assets making $65,000 or less annually, will pay nothing at all."  As always, students contribute to the cost of their education through term-time and summer work.

"Beyond statistical measures, the Class of 2017 embodies all the intangibles, attributes of strong character and personal qualities that foster unusual academic and extracurricular excellence," said Fitzsimmons. "Their remarkable creativity, intellectual curiosity, and love of learning will add immeasurably to the education of their fellow classmates and to the entire Harvard community."

More than 27 percent intend to concentrate in the social sciences, 23 percent in the biological sciences, nearly 18 percent in the humanities, 15 percent in engineering and computer science, 9 percent in the physical sciences, 7 percent in mathematics, and the rest are undecided.

Extracurricular interests cited by students include music and other expressive and performing arts (42 percent); debate and political activities, including student government (35 percent); social service (17 percent); and writing and journalism (18 percent). In addition, 54 percent of the class expects to participate in recreational, intramural, or intercollegiate athletics.

More than 14,400 in the applicant pool scored 700 or above on the SAT critical reading test; 17,400 scored 700 or above on the SAT math test; 14,900 scored 700 or higher on the SAT writing test; and 3,400 were ranked first in their high school classes.

Slightly more than half (53.4 percent) of those admitted are men, reflecting the fact that more men than women applied.  Minority representation remained strong. The admitted class is 19.9 percent Asian-American, 11.5 percent African-American, 11.5 percent Latino, 2.2 percent Native American, and .5 percent Native Hawaiian.

Geographic representation remained similar to last year.  About 23 percent of the admitted students reside in the mid-Atlantic states, 21 percent in the Western and Mountain states, 17 percent in the South, 17 percent in New England, 9 percent in the Midwest, and 11 percent in the U.S. territories and abroad.

Foreign citizens make up 10.3 percent of the admitted students.  In addition, a significant number of entering students will bring international perspectives, including 147 U.S. dual citizens, 61 U.S. permanent residents, and many Americans who have lived abroad.  Together, foreign citizens, U.S. duals, and U.S. permanent residents make up more than 20 percent of the class, representing 81 countries.  "Harvard is greatly enriched by the presence of outstanding international students," said Robin M. Worth, director of international admissions. "They add a unique dimension to the College, both in and out of the classroom."

"Much of our success is due to our loyal 15,000 alumni volunteers," said Marlyn E. McGrath, director of admissions. "Their interviews remain important as we make our admissions decisions.  They are also essential to our recruiting, as they visit schools, call newly admitted students, and host gatherings for them in April." Added Elizabeth Adams, liaison to the alumni/ae Schools and Scholarship Committees, "Their willingness to take time out of already busy lives to help assemble our class each year is vital to our efforts."

Recruitment begins each year with direct outreach to promising juniors. More than 64 percent of all admitted students and 81 percent of admitted minority students appeared on the original College Board and ACT search lists that helped launch Harvard's outreach program for the Class of 2017.

Staff members will visit 125 cities this spring and fall in tandem with Duke University, Georgetown University, the University of Pennsylvania, and Stanford University, targeting high school juniors who may eventually join the Class of 2018.  "Harvard will join Princeton and the University of Virginia to visit 20 more cities in the fall, targeting students from modest economic backgrounds," said Tim Smith, assistant director of joint travel.  Added Jennifer Gandy, director of joint travel, "Last year, Harvard admissions officers visited all 50 states, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, and Mexico, where we saw nearly 50,000 high school students and parents and met with more than 3,000 high school guidance counselors."

"Recruitment has provided the foundation for Harvard's pursuit of academic and extracurricular excellence for many decades," said Roger Banks, director of recruitment.  "Members of the Undergraduate Minority Recruitment Program (UMRP) and the Harvard Financial Aid Initiative (HFAI) played a key role in attracting this year's record pool of students." Members of both organizations telephoned and sent email messages and letters to prospective applicants. They also conducted recruitment trips around the country and met with middle school and high school student groups who visited Harvard.

"We are gratified by the enthusiasm of our UMRP coordinators and the positive results they achieved this year," said Lucerito Ortiz, co-director of UMRP. Added Tia Ray, assistant director, "Our program continues to develop close relationships with schools and communities that will help us with future recruiting as well."

"HFAI remains one of Harvard's highest priorities, and once again we were able to attract outstanding students from families with annual incomes under $80,000," said Monica Del Toro-Brown, director of HFAI. Pharen Bowman, HFAI assistant director, noted, "Our student recruiters worked tirelessly to reach out to talented students from modest economic backgrounds who never dreamed Harvard was possible." Added Charlene Kim, HFAI assistant director, "As a person who would have benefited from the HFAI program, I am inspired by students who have come to Harvard as a result of HFAI."  Kaitlin Howrigan, assistant director of HFAI, observed, "As a Vermonter from a multi-generational farming family, I am particularly pleased to see the number of students from rural areas who benefit from HFAI."

The Undergraduate Admissions Council (UAC) and the undergraduate tour guides and greeters work year-round with campus visitors to Cambridge, leading tours and hosting prospective applicants overnight. David Evans, co-director of the UAC, noted, "Current undergraduates have enormous credibility with prospective students who want to learn firsthand about the Harvard experience." Added Mike Esposito, UAC co-director, "The UAC provides a human face to the Harvard community, and applicants often stay in touch with UAC members throughout the year." Jake Foley, UAC co-director, concurred, saying, "We hear from students and families that UAC members help separate fact from fiction about what Harvard is really like on a day-to-day basis."

Banks, director of visitor services and co-director of the student tour guide program, said, "Our tour guides and greeters welcome over 40,000 visitors each year to Cambridge. Their anecdotes about life in the College both inside and outside the classroom help lend a personal dimension to Harvard."  Added Ortiz, "We get many compliments from the public about our tour guides and their ability to relate to a wide range of people with their grace and humor."  Bryce Gilfillian, assistant director, said, "Prospective students and their families from around the world see Harvard for the first time with our tour guides and often make their decision about whether to apply based on this experience."

McGrath emphasized the important role of the teaching faculty in the admissions process.  Faculty members speak with many prospective students in person or on the phone and answer their letters and email inquiries. "Their accessibility is a clear demonstration of Harvard's commitment to undergraduate education. In reading hundreds of applications, evaluating academic research of all kinds, and assessing portfolios across a range of academic and creative disciplines, faculty members identify the next generation of scholars for Harvard."

Members of the teaching faculty serving on the Admissions Committee are Ann Blair, Peter Burgard, Diana Eck, Edward Glaeser, Benedict Gross, Guido Guidotti, Evelynn M. Hammonds, Joseph Harris, Thomas Jehn, Harry Lewis, James McCarthy, Louis Menand, Michael Mitzenmacher, Cherry Murray, Alison Simmons, Frans Spaepen, Christopher Stubbs, Richard Thomas, James Waldo, Robert Woollacott, and Amir Yacoby.

Personal contact with admitted students will be important over the next few weeks.  Members of the UAC, UMRP, HFAI, the admissions and financial aid staff, and teaching faculty will write, email, telephone, and meet with admitted students.

"Our careful admissions process allows us to get to know our admitted students well," said Niki Applebaum, yield activity coordinator.  "We write personalized notes to congratulate them and help them consider how Harvard might provide the right match for their interests."

Harvard reaches out to students through a comprehensive digital communications program directed by Amy Lavoie.  Working with assistant directors, Applebaum, Jake Foley and Amelia Muller, Lavoie said that, "Students today rely increasingly on the Internet for information about higher education.  Through our website and student blogs, students from all over the world can get a wealth of information about the College."

To give admitted students the opportunity to experience Harvard life and meet future professors and classmates, a visiting program for admitted students is scheduled for April 20 to 22.  The program, known as Visitas, enables guests to sample classes, attend faculty panel discussions, concerts, receptions, department open houses, symposia, and hundreds of events organized by extracurricular groups.  More than 1,400 admitted students are expected to visit during April, and 1,200 of them will do so during Visitas.  "Students admitted to Harvard have many attractive options, and meetings with faculty and future classmates are critically important to them," said Visitas co-director Esposito.  Co-director Muller added that "many students decide to attend Harvard based on their Visitas experience."

Donahue and her financial aid colleagues will be available to speak with admitted students and their families on weekdays during April from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. EDT and on April 21 from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. during Visitas.  "We welcome students and parents who have concerns or questions about how to finance a Harvard education, including families who may not have applied for financial aid but who are interested in the wide range of available payment options," she said.  "Our program offers assistance to all students and families, ranging from full financial aid to a number of financing alternatives: a monthly payment plan, the opportunity to prepay tuition at current rates, and a variety of parent loan programs that extend payments up to 15 years."

"Students and their families are anxious to learn more about other forms of financial assistance, such as the Faculty Aide Program, the Harvard College Research Program, and the Dean's Summer Research Program, all of which enable students to create paid partnerships with faculty members on academic projects of mutual interest," said Meg Brooks Swift, director of student employment and the Harvard College Research Program.  "We stand ready to help them in any way we can."

In 2006 my son graduated from a very well respected academically catholic high school.  He had a 4.0 GPA, took AP courses, scored 2,200 out of 2,400 on the brand new SAT test and was involved in sports and extra-curricular activities.

He applied to the engineering schools of Penn St., Maryland, Virginia Tech, Purdue and George Washington.  On a whim, he said he wanted to apply to Harvard, Yale and Princeton to see what would happen.  All three declined and he was accepted to all the others, which had the more acclaimed engineering programs.  He went on to get a full scholarship at Maryland after first year, all the way through his post graduate work, where he received his Masters in the unique field of Fire Protection Engineering.

All three Ivy schools had alumni conducting personal interviews and they report the results back to the admissions department.  

Alot of these applications have to do with what "school" you are applying for within the university.  As 84 stated, the amount of applications and actual acceptance is insane, just because the students want to attend the Ivies and gain the "prestige" gathered with the degree.

I for one am glad he went to Maryland, which has an outstanding Engineering school and the cost benefit.  Maryland, Penn St., Purdue and Virginia Tech also have much better engineering schools than the Ivies he applied to.

Maybe this girl applied to the wrong "school" within a school, just bombed her interviews or was just a numbers game.  She should be more than pleased to get accepted to Michigan, one if not the best public colleges.

On last note, I saw a TV segment on admissions last week and they interviewed someone from an Ivy school (can't recall which) and she said they accepted one applicant because of his ingenuity with his application.  Seems he sent his application in a shoebox and wrote something like "I like to think out of the box" as his opening statement. Just goes to show........

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2013, 02:18:38 PM

That's where my head is.  And if she did the same work she currently did but was able to check a box or two, I'm willing to bet she would have been admitted at some of those other schools.  BOX CHECK....what BOXES can I check to get in.   Reverse discrimination is awesome, and it exists...so says the SCOTUS. 

My viewpoints are shaped by a good friend at UCLA in their admissions department.  I'll leave it at that.

Harvard and other Ivies have made it very clear that they don't simply accept those with the highest GPAs, standardized test scores, etc. or those who check the most boxes.  They are going to have a diverse class...and by diverse I mean not just racial diversity...but different backgrounds of all types.  Geographic...income...etc. 

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 04, 2013, 02:29:37 PM
So these admission people are boobs that cannot tell the different between a "box checker" and a truly talented kid?

I'm saying certain boxes mean things to admissions boards, whether they care to admit it or not....whether, in some cases, they are legally allowed to consider them or not.

this whole thread makes me thing of the guy from the movie 21 where the guy needed needed "life experience" to get into Harvard med school even though he had perfect grades at MIT.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 04, 2013, 03:40:49 PM

Harvard and other Ivies have made it very clear that they don't simply accept those with the highest GPAs, standardized test scores, etc. or those who check the most boxes.  They are going to have a diverse class...and by diverse I mean not just racial diversity...but different backgrounds of all types.  Geographic...income...etc. 

Oh yes, quite aware.  My son is going into the international baccalaureate program next year and we've heard all the pitches from the various schools.  I will simply say that if you are able to check some boxes off, they can help overcome grades, test scores, playing sports, etc.  Since that is so arbitrary and non-objective, the frustration comes in for kids and parents to try and understand how come student A (great grades, great scores, 4 years sports, community service, etc) is passed by for student B (good grades, good scores, joined certain PC clubs, etc).   In their goal to reach diversity, there is no hard and fast criteria, thus it becomes the whims of some folks who aren't willing to state in concrete terms what that criteria is (of course not, that would defeat their ability to shape things).

Such is life where there are limited spots, not everyone can get admitted and certain influencers are going to make sure many other factors are involved. 

No one claims that it's a perfect process.  Life's a journey and if your son is rejected by his first choice, it won't be the last time.  That's what I disliked about the original article - instead of bitching and moaning about the rejection, use it as a time to reflect and see where life takes you.  Yeah that's painful.  But frankly no one wants to hear her complain.

Maybe the author should have disclosed that her sister used to be an editorial features editor at the WSJ, thus giving her preferential treatment in getting this published.

As a father of four, I will say this:  her comment "It has been great in certain ways: Instead of "Be home by 11," it's "Don't wake us up when you come through the door, we're trying to sleep." rings true.  You tend to wear down as the miles pile on. 

Legs jr. has just gone through the process.  And he knew exactly what to expect.  Had the grades, test scores and the meaningful extracurriculars to have a reasonable chance to be accepted anywhere, but no special something (like being a D-1 athlete or amazing dancer (somehow that wasn't passed on; sigh.)) to assure him of acceptance anywhere.

He applied to a bunch of the schools mentioned by others (UVA, Vandy, ND, Michigan, BC, Duke, MU [double legacy!]) and also to one of the top Ivy's.  And they tell you: 30,000 apps, admit 2,900 to get a class of 1,900.  And after legacies, athletes and arts programs are filled, there are even fewer spots, and out of he 30,000 who apply, they tell you that 20,000 are qualified to get in.  And those 20,000 against whom a non athlete non legacy is competing all are as qualified or more qualified than you.

So, you play the numbers game, and you get into some, but not all.  You hope that your kid has the sense to make a decision like nyg's.  And then you hope that he makes the most out of whichever wonderful opportunity he has.

Kids like ours and the young lady who wrote the article have fantastic opportunities, and shame on them and their parents if they don't see it that way.

I'd tell you where Legs Jr. decided to go, but Chili would do a face plant in his Marquette Special. 

I didn't notice that this student did any extracurricular activities or sports?  The Ivies as do most schools look at that besides a grade point & SAT scores.  I know Yale has been making a point to accept more local kids for whatever reason.  I know of one local student that will be attending there next year.  She was tops academic-wise in her class although not #1 or #2, but she's an all-state shot putter and plans to do so at Yale.  Sounds like that helped differentiate for other students.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2013, 03:44:14 PM
I'm saying certain boxes mean things to admissions boards, whether they care to admit it or not....whether, in some cases, they are legally allowed to consider them or not.

So what you're sayin is that she's too traditional, aina?

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on April 05, 2013, 07:28:18 AM
I didn't notice that this student did any extracurricular activities or sports?  The Ivies as do most schools look at that besides a grade point & SAT scores.  I know Yale has been making a point to accept more local kids for whatever reason.  I know of one local student that will be attending there next year.  She was tops academic-wise in her class although not #1 or #2, but she's an all-state shot putter and plans to do so at Yale.  Sounds like that helped differentiate for other students.

Nearly all Ivies accept more local kids when compared to the national average.  Here in Boston, evey year, the most # of entrants from one high school is always Boston Latin School.   These are schools that have billions in the bank, and don't pay taxes because of their non-profit tax status.  They view this as one of the ways to give back.  While doesn't make up for the hundreds of millions they save in taxes, it's at least something.

Quote from: nyg on April 04, 2013, 03:25:21 PM
In 2006 my son graduated from a very well respected academically catholic high school.  ... He applied to the engineering schools of Penn St., Maryland, Virginia Tech, Purdue and George Washington.  On a whim, he said he wanted to apply to Harvard, Yale and Princeton to see what would happen.  All three declined and he was accepted to all the others, which had the more acclaimed engineering programs.  

Quote from: LloydMooresLegs on April 04, 2013, 11:49:02 PM
Legs jr. has just gone through the process. ... I'd tell you where Legs Jr. decided to go, but Chili would do a face plant in his Marquette Special.  

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2013, 03:54:08 PM
Oh yes, quite aware.  My son is going into the international baccalaureate program next year and we've heard all the pitches from the various schools.  

To the above and anyone else that had a kid apply to schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton etc ...

How many kids from your school went, or are currently go to, these schools?  Did these schools send someone from the admission department to your college day?

I ask because school reputation matters.  If your school has several kids walking around around Harvard (to pick one), and if Harvard thinks enough of your school to send someone to college day, that helps a lot.

Quote from: reinko on April 05, 2013, 08:24:45 AM
Nearly all Ivies accept more local kids when compared to the national average.  Here in Boston, evey year, the # of entrants from one high school is always Boston Latin School.   These are schools have that have billions in the bank, and don't pay taxes because of their non-profit tax status.  They view this as one of the ways to give back.  While doesn't make up for the hundreds of millions they save in taxes, it's at least something.

My wife works with someone that went to Boston Latin (the oldest high school in America!) and then Harvard.  He graduated from Boston Latin in the early 1980s and said 30 (no typo!) went to Harvard.

Quote from: reinko on April 04, 2013, 04:26:00 PM
Maybe the author should have disclosed that her sister used to be an editorial features editor at the WSJ, thus giving her preferential treatment in getting this published.

+1.  I work with kids everyday.  I will tell you that this generation is awful, in there concept of entitlement and their ability to think. 

If I was in charge at Michigan, I'd pull her acceptance for this piece of drivel that she got published because of nepotism. 

She needs to learn fast that most things in life will not be based on whether you did a good job.  Everyone works hard, most are qualified, it is little things that make the difference.

I think she already knows this though and took one last stab at getting in, using family to get here a publication in the WSJ.  Shame on the today show for giving her more Facetime.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 05, 2013, 08:45:16 AM
To the above and anyone else that had a kid apply to schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton etc ...

How many kids from your school went, or are currently go to, these schools?  Did these schools send someone from the admission department to your college day?

A lot of high schools don't have a college day any longer.

I went to a very good public high school (at the time.)  Madison West is right by the University and I had a lot of classmates whose parents were professors.  I bet I had about a dozen classmates that went to Ivy League schools and about another dozen that could have but chose a place like Stanford instead.

My kids went to a run of the mill public school in Indiana, but my oldest son had a classmate that went to Dartmouth, no legacy whatsoever, and another classmate that was accepted to an Ivy but went to IU instead.  She was a first generation student and didn't want to be that far from home.

ok actually after reading all this I find it fascinating.
Trying to get over the initial knee jerk thinking this girl got screwed to her aura of entitlement...

I've found that the two times people are the most delusional is their senior year of high school and their senior year of college for the same reasons: the overblown expectation that they'll be accepted to their first choice top flight university when they hadn't "checked all the boxes"/they expect their perfect job and salary as soon as they graduate without having done the internships etc...

Probably can't fully understand this to the way some of you dads can.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 05, 2013, 08:45:16 AM
To the above and anyone else that had a kid apply to schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton etc ...

How many kids from your school went, or are currently go to, these schools?  Did these schools send someone from the admission department to your college day?

I ask because school reputation matters.  If your school has several kids walking around around Harvard (to pick one), and if Harvard thinks enough of your school to send someone to college day, that helps a lot.

My wife works with someone that went to Boston Latin (the oldest high school in America!) and then Harvard.  He graduated from Boston Latin in the early 1980s and said 30 (no typo!) went to Harvard.

My son's high school had a college day and it was actually pretty big and well attended.  There were Ivy school representatives and from what I recall were from Harvard, Princeton, Penn, Yale and Cornell.  Two of them were alumni of the high school and worked in the area.  They were also the ones who conducted the interview of my son subsequent to him applying.  They were not employees of the school's admission's office, but do it probably as a civic/service duty for the school on an alumni basis.  Can't imagine the schools sending out employees across the country to do that, so its nice to have them perform that function.

Checked with the son and he said two kids went to Ivy schools, one to Harvard and one to Cornell.  Another student, who was one of only 120 students nationally in 2005 to score a perfect score on the new SAT (was first year of new test) was accepted to a few, along with MIT, but went to Michigan on full ride for Engineering.

Quote from: forgetful on April 05, 2013, 09:07:26 AM
+1.  I work with kids everyday.  I will tell you that this generation is awful, in there concept of entitlement and their ability to think.  

As a member of 'this generation' (who recently graduated, has a job, is is prepping for grad school), I'd encourage all the 'these kids are awful' crowd to look in the mirror. You guys raised 'this generation.' If it's as bad as you say, maybe you should have done a better job.

Consider this a friendly reminder that your parents said the same thing about your generation.

(I don't actually think you old farts did a bad job, but I also think that the whole 'kids these days' schtick gets a little old).

I'll also assume that using the wrong form of 'their' when insulting a generation's critical thinking skills was really subtle satire.

Quote from: akmarq on April 05, 2013, 10:06:48 AM
I'll also assume that using the wrong form of 'their' when insulting a generation's critical thinking skills was really subtle satire.

Quote from: akmarq on April 05, 2013, 10:06:48 AM
As a member of 'this generation' (who recently graduated, has a job, is is prepping for grad school),

ha ha!

Quote from: Warrior's Path on April 05, 2013, 10:18:20 AM
ha ha!

I did say prepping right? Better bust out the GRE book one more more more time.

Quote from: forgetful on April 05, 2013, 09:07:26 AM
Everyone works hard

So not true. Almost everyone slacks. The average work ethic in corporate America is a joke.

Working 8-6 (or more) instead of 9-5 will get you ahead, noticed, etc. because most of the "competition" is weak as unnatural carnal knowledge.

Quote from: Marquette Gyros on April 05, 2013, 11:12:44 AM
So not true. Almost everyone slacks. The average work ethic in corporate America is a joke.

Working 8-6 (or more) instead of 9-5 will get you ahead, noticed, etc. because most of the "competition" is weak as unnatural carnal knowledge.

Working 10-12 hours a day doesn't necessarily get you ahead. More and more companies are realizing that efficient productivity is more important than actual hours in the office. A person who does 10 hours of work in 8 hours is more valuable than someone who does 10 hours of work in 10 hours.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 05, 2013, 11:35:51 AM
Working 10-12 hours a day doesn't necessarily get you ahead. More and more companies are realizing that efficient productivity is more important than actual hours in the office. A person who does 10 hours of work in 8 hours is more valuable than someone who does 10 hours of work in 10 hours.

When someone around here tells me they work regular 10-12 hour days, I generally think to myself "man...you aren't very efficient."

Quote from: Ari Gold on April 05, 2013, 09:45:06 AM
ok actually after reading all this I find it fascinating.
Trying to get over the initial knee jerk thinking this girl got screwed to her aura of entitlement...

I've found that the two times people are the most delusional is their senior year of high school and their senior year of college for the same reasons: the overblown expectation that they'll be accepted to their first choice top flight university when they hadn't "checked all the boxes"/they expect their perfect job and salary as soon as they graduate without having done the internships etc...

Probably can't fully understand this to the way some of you dads can.

I'm relatively young (graduated in 2007) and have issues with this. Yes, my generation is absolutely delusional about those times. We were delusional about a lot of things before reaching milestone times in our lives. But why were we so delusional? Because our parents, teachers, mentors, etc were all telling us we could do whatever we wanted and become whatever we wanted and we were all "special", "unique". Simple fact is we aren't special or unique. And most of us can't do whatever we want. All the encouraging, optimistic speeches and quotes left us very delusional. It isn't fair to rant about kids feeling entitled when we were taught/told from a very young age that we are entitled. As I've grown up, I've learned a lot about the real world and how things work (and i'm still learning!). It just strikes me as a bit ironic.

Also, hard work rarely seems to get you anywhere in life these days. It's more about who you know and where you happen to be at a certain time. Luck/timing plays a huge role in success.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 05, 2013, 11:41:03 AM

When someone around here tells me they work regular 10-12 hour days, I generally think to myself "man...you aren't very efficient."

Find me a manager that works a 40 hour week and I'll find you an underperforming team, a waste in salary somewhere on their team, or both.

Quote from: Marquette Gyros on April 05, 2013, 11:51:01 AM

Find me a manager that works a 40 hour week and I'll find you an underperforming team, a waste in salary somewhere on their team, or both.

Eh...

Impress with your accomplishments...not your hours.  I view my job as continuously working, just some times harder than other times.  I'm probably in the office about 40-45 hours a week, but that doesn't preclude me from working at home in the evenings or on the weekends.

I love that this conversation is happening in the middle of a work day

Quote from: Marquette Gyros on April 05, 2013, 11:51:01 AM

Find me a manager that works a 40 hour week and I'll find you an underperforming team, a waste in salary somewhere on their team, or both.

(http://blog.hyland.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/The-bobs.png)

Quote from: Victor McCormick on April 05, 2013, 12:02:25 PM
I love that this conversation is happening in the middle of a work day

Scoop helps my productivity....that's my story.

+1s all around

Hard work definitely isn't the answer nowadays when it comes to the office enviornment.  I'm not going to gloat, and say what an amazing worker i am, but it seems that if you agree to do something once in the office, you just surrendered to doing that task for the rest of your tenure.  Numbers don't mean everything where i work, i know darn well that means nothing.

Just be hot, give good ________  and you'll make it far.  (no teal)

Quote from: Victor McCormick on April 05, 2013, 12:02:25 PM
I love that this conversation is happening in the middle of a work day

This made me laugh.

You're going places in this world, Vic!

Quote from: jesmu84 on April 05, 2013, 11:49:31 AM
I'm relatively young (graduated in 2007) and have issues with this. Yes, my generation is absolutely delusional about those times. We were delusional about a lot of things before reaching milestone times in our lives. But why were we so delusional? Because our parents, teachers, mentors, etc were all telling us we could do whatever we wanted and become whatever we wanted and we were all "special", "unique". Simple fact is we aren't special or unique. And most of us can't do whatever we want. All the encouraging, optimistic speeches and quotes left us very delusional. It isn't fair to rant about kids feeling entitled when we were taught/told from a very young age that we are entitled. As I've grown up, I've learned a lot about the real world and how things work (and i'm still learning!). It just strikes me as a bit ironic.

Also, hard work rarely seems to get you anywhere in life these days. It's more about who you know and where you happen to be at a certain time. Luck/timing plays a huge role in success.

Which actually makes me younger than you... I dont think it has to do with parents and mentors and such as much as it has to do with the inexperience of never being in "the real world." The fact that nobody caries about you (until you miss a student loan payment) is a harsh wake up following 4 years of college. When your in college the "paying your dues" thing doesn't seem to sink in.

Quote from: Ari Gold on April 05, 2013, 12:49:15 PM
Which actually makes me younger than you... I dont think it has to do with parents and mentors and such as much as it has to do with the inexperience of never being in "the real world." The fact that nobody caries about you (until you miss a student loan payment) is a harsh wake up following 4 years of college. When your in college the "paying your dues" thing doesn't seem to sink in.

I agree with you on your statement about our inexperience in the real world. But then what separates us from the generations before? Why are we the "entitled" generation? What makes the older people call us that? Were they the same at one point in their lives and just don't realize it? Or do we actually have a different mentality and, if we do, how did that come to be?

Quote from: jesmu84 on April 05, 2013, 12:56:49 PM
Were they the same at one point in their lives and just don't realize it?

There's your answer.

Quote from: akmarq on April 05, 2013, 01:15:20 PM
There's your answer.

From my point of view, the competition these days, academically speaking, is much higher.  The population is much higher than it was even 20 years ago, and there aren't very many new Universities (I'm just going to go ahead and not count U of Phoenix, etc.) popping up.  Sure, enrollment has increased, but I doubt that it has kept up with population...

Or, who knows, I could be totally wrong.  Could the expert on this (Terror Skink, I think I speak for everyone when I say that I miss The Sultan) give some insight?

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 05, 2013, 01:19:33 PM
From my point of view, the competition these days, academically speaking, is much higher.  The population is much higher than it was even 20 years ago, and there aren't very many new Universities (I'm just going to go ahead and not count U of Phoenix, etc.) popping up.  Sure, enrollment has increased, but I doubt that it has kept up with population...

Or, who knows, I could be totally wrong.  Could the expert on this (Terror Skink, I think I speak for everyone when I say that I miss The Sultan) give some insight?

By and large you are correct.  The vast majority of the increase in college enrollment has been at the two-year college level.  And that is probably OK - that's what those schools were designed to do in the first place.

OTOH, access to a four-year college immediately out of high school can be a challenge for kids in certain states, and that has caused them to open some schools.  (Florida Gulf Coast is a perfect example of that....Cal State Channel Islands is another.)  But increasing enrollment at an existing campus is easier and usually cheaper.  Texas State in San Marcos has increased their enrollment by almost 50% over the past ten years - from about 23,000 in 2003 to over 34,000 this year.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 05, 2013, 01:19:33 PM
From my point of view, the competition these days, academically speaking, is much higher.  The population is much higher than it was even 20 years ago, and there aren't very many new Universities (I'm just going to go ahead and not count U of Phoenix, etc.) popping up.  Sure, enrollment has increased, but I doubt that it has kept up with population...

Or, who knows, I could be totally wrong.  Could the expert on this (Terror Skink, I think I speak for everyone when I say that I miss The Sultan) give some insight?

The difference today is the common application.

For you old farts without high school age kids, most colleges (including the ivies) now accept the common application online.  It is what the name implies.  Once done with the common application, you are essentially done with 80% of the typical university application.

Individual schools may require supplement information but common application is the bulk of the work.  So, applying to another school is just a few mouse clicks (and another application fee) and reworking some supplemental information from one school to the next.

This means their is an explosion of applications for all schools.  For instance my High School Senior daughter applied to 9 schools.  When I applied, putting the application in the typewriter and carefully filling it out, would be too much to apply to nine schools.

So, all colleges get more applications making all colleges harder to get into.

I graduated with a BS in Chemistry and Biology from MU in '69. Two of my High School buddies graduated from the Ivies Princeton and Harvard and both went on for their MBAs. They are still working, have debt, and paying off their mortgages. I am now retired and have no debt. Sometimes I believe it is what you do with your education, but more importantly one must learn to live not only within your means but well below you means.

Well this article does nothing but prove those schools were right in rejecting her...

Quote from: cbowe3 on April 04, 2013, 03:53:13 PM
this whole thread makes me thing of the guy from the movie 21 where the guy needed needed "life experience" to get into Harvard med school even though he had perfect grades at MIT.

Must be a movie. If you are a student at any Harvard college you can take any class at MIT (and vice versa.) I took classes at Sloan and there were Sloan students in classes at HBS. 

Quote from: ElDonBDon on April 04, 2013, 02:42:20 PM
Michigan is a great, nay, superb school.  I'd even argue that it's better than Vandy by almost every measure.  

In any case, my advice to this girl is to stop comparing yourself to others; use your own past achievements as a measuring stick.  I find that going through life is much easier that way.

Michigan is a great school. She will do just fine in life with that credential.

Quote from: Marquette Gyros on April 05, 2013, 11:12:44 AM
So not true. Almost everyone slacks. The average work ethic in corporate America is a joke.

Working 8-6 (or more) instead of 9-5 will get you ahead, noticed, etc. because most of the "competition" is weak as unnatural carnal knowledge.

I believe that varies by company and one's level.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 04, 2013, 03:40:49 PM

Harvard and other Ivies have made it very clear that they don't simply accept those with the highest GPAs, standardized test scores, etc. or those who check the most boxes.  They are going to have a diverse class...and by diverse I mean not just racial diversity...but different backgrounds of all types.  Geographic...income...etc. 

This isn't actually correct. My wife and I have done interviews for Harvard and Columbia respectively. The university and gaining college send out a cheat sheet on the candidate and these notes are specific to that person. The focus is not on any sort of diversity, I can assure you. And yes, alumni interviews are a crucial hurdle in the process. An alumnus can and should be a gate keeper as this might be the first and only personal interaction the school has with the applicant before rendering an acceptance decision. I will tell you that we evaluated many things including table manners and social grace.

The only express lane interviews were for legacy candidates and these were not a gimme by any stretch but certainly less rigorous. And funnily enough, both the Harvard and Columbia screening is incredibly similar. The evaluative criteria both schools ask us to address are essentially the same and have little to do with the empirically evident. An interviewer has the complete package and so you know the facts and figures but that only establishes a baseline from which to look deeper at a candidate. For instance, a young person might be his class val but I am more interested to hear about his summer in Peru or her thoughts on Kim Jong Il.

Our daughter is a legacy but her getting into Columbia undergrad was not a given. In her case, a life spent abroad in foreign cultures, educated in international schools, and being fluent in several languages were more compelling than her mother's diploma from Columbia. She has been accepted for graduate study beginning this fall at Harvard and her legacy status was less relevant than her work of the past few years at the Clinton Foundation.

I can't speak for all Ivies but we know about Harvard and Columbia and diversity is a factor but not in any way an imperative. The single most important reason driving diversity is compliance with Federal guidelines. Beyond that class composition is based on many other factors that are, quite frankly, far more important than any sort of diversity.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 04, 2013, 03:54:08 PM
My son is going into the international baccalaureate program next year

This is a very important credential. Our three went through IB programs in International Schools and this is huge. I can tell you, too, that Harvard and Columbia place a great deal of weight on an IB v a conventional diploma. Having said which, some schools call their curriculum IB but a true IB is accredited through the Foundation in Switzerland and that is the only IB cert recognized by the best schools in America. An important factor, too, is the number of IB accredited faculty. Ask questions because there is a lot of fraud out there surrounding "IB" diplomas.

Quote from: keefe on April 05, 2013, 07:41:51 PM
This is a very important credential. Our three went through IB programs in International Schools and this is huge. I can tell you, too, that Harvard and Columbia place a great deal of weight on an IB v a conventional diploma. Having said which, some schools call their curriculum IB but a true IB is accredited through the Foundation in Switzerland and that is the only IB cert recognized by the best schools in America. An important factor, too, is the number of IB accredited faculty. Ask questions because there is a lot of fraud out there surrounding "IB" diplomas.

Yeah, this is the one through Switzerland.  It just so happens the high school down the street from us is one of only three in Orange County (they also have AP as well).  The biggest concern I have is his athletics desire.  He's a terrific goalie and will make the team next year if he goes out...a pretty good football player and would also make the team.  Of the IB kids at the high school, only 2 are currently in athletics because of the rigors.  We are a minority in our city as it is heavily Asian, the competition academically is beyond fierce.  We'll see how it goes, he has some decisions to make.  We've interviewed a few kids that did the IB program and those that did the AP program and played sports.  All ended up attending very good schools for college.  We're surrounded by two of the top 5 high schools in the country (one rating service  http://www.university-list.net/us/rank/school-100001.html  ) , so the academic influence here is non-stop...too much in my opinion.  They don't get to be kids in my opinion.

Chico's

Hockey or soccer goalie?

Quote from: akmarq on April 05, 2013, 10:06:48 AM
As a member of 'this generation' (who recently graduated, has a job, is is prepping for grad school), I'd encourage all the 'these kids are awful' crowd to look in the mirror. You guys raised 'this generation.' If it's as bad as you say, maybe you should have done a better job.

Consider this a friendly reminder that your parents said the same thing about your generation.

(I don't actually think you old farts did a bad job, but I also think that the whole 'kids these days' schtick gets a little old).

I'll also assume that using the wrong form of 'their' when insulting a generation's critical thinking skills was really subtle satire.

Grammar has nothing to do with critical thinking skills.  Anyone that wants to say that I am loose with my grammar is 100% correct.  As for this generation, I am referring to changes even in the last 3-5 years.  There are obvious reasons for this change in opinions and thinking skills and I am fully aware of where the fault lies.  That doesn't change the fact that the current crop of students as a whole has poorer critical thinking skills and has a unique sense of entitlement.  Also this clearly does not apply to all people.

I also think that most of the complaints of the generation before before mine are well placed.  Fact of the matter is that we have progressively deteriorated in many capacities.

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 05, 2013, 11:41:03 AM

When someone around here tells me they work regular 10-12 hour days, I generally think to myself "man...you aren't very efficient."

I know lots of people, including myself who regularly work 10-12 or longer hour days a minimum of 6 days a week.  They are also the most efficient people I have ever seen.

If you are not working 10-12 hour days, I fear that either you are not dedicated to your job, or frankly that the job really isn't that important. 

Imagine if your doctors only worked an 8 hour day or if scientists said, you know what a cure for diabetes/cancer/tuberculosis isn't that important.  If the people of America's greatest generation decided that an 8 hour day was sufficient, where would this country be.

Try working at a consulting firm like Mckinsey and work an 8 hour day. 

Quote from: Goose on April 05, 2013, 08:08:44 PM
Chico's

Hockey or soccer goalie?

Soccer.  I wish it was hockey, so does he....he's a hockey fanatic but that wasn't in the cards.

You can't even really see his head in this shot because he is bending back so far, just the very top of his very blonde hair.

(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/665880_10200092070847818_787842339_o.jpg) 

He's always been a good athlete....Little League All-Stars, Soccer All-Stars, Football....but he's stuck with his dad's and mom's body which means he better continue to nail it in the classroom.   :D

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2013, 08:26:26 PM
Soccer.  I wish it was hockey, so does he....he's a hockey fanatic but that wasn't in the cards.

You can't even really see his head in this shot because he is bending back so far, just the very top of his very blonde hair.

(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/665880_10200092070847818_787842339_o.jpg) 

He's always been a good athlete....Little League All-Stars, Soccer All-Stars, Football....but he's stuck with his dad's and mom's body which means he better continue to nail it in the classroom.   :D

OMG what happened to his head.  He has no head.  Hell of a goalie for not having a head.

Chico's

My oldest son was a hockey goalie and my daughter was a soccer goalie. Hockey is a blast, but my daughter opened up a ton of doors for college next year. She goes to IB school and not sure if soccer or school opened the doors for her. Hope your son has great time in the net.

Forgetful

I am with you completely with you on work ethic. My Dad started with nothing and built a very successful business and worked long, long hours. I remember as a kid taking my Dad dinner with my Mom and watching eat while he worked. As a relatively small business owner, hoping to become  a little McKinsey I find myself working long, long hours like my Dad. I would not trade it for anything and still believe my company will become a little McKinsey.

Quote from: Goose on April 05, 2013, 08:56:51 PM
Forgetful

I am with you completely with you on work ethic. My Dad started with nothing and built a very successful business and worked long, long hours. I remember as a kid taking my Dad dinner with my Mom and watching eat while he worked. As a relatively small business owner, hoping to become  a little McKinsey I find myself working long, long hours like my Dad. I would not trade it for anything and still believe my company will become a little McKinsey.

I wish you well.  We deal with McKinsey as well as Bain all the time.  Sometimes I want to pull my hair out, and other times I realize just how smart those bastards are.  I don't know if the expense justifies the return, but they are a smart bunch and they will tell you that.   ;D

Quote from: Goose on April 05, 2013, 08:56:51 PM
Forgetful

I am with you completely with you on work ethic. My Dad started with nothing and built a very successful business and worked long, long hours. I remember as a kid taking my Dad dinner with my Mom and watching eat while he worked. As a relatively small business owner, hoping to become  a little McKinsey I find myself working long, long hours like my Dad. I would not trade it for anything and still believe my company will become a little McKinsey.

Goose, from what you post on here about your life, it sounds like you have the experience, knowledge and dedication to get it done.  I wish you luck. 

The one thing about Mckinsey is the treasure trove of internal documents that they can rely on when working with companies. 

Hard work and creative thinking though can provide a niche market that will allow one to succeed.

Chico's and forgetful

Thank you for your kind words.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2013, 07:56:47 PM
Yeah, this is the one through Switzerland.  It just so happens the high school down the street from us is one of only three in Orange County (they also have AP as well).  The biggest concern I have is his athletics desire.  He's a terrific goalie and will make the team next year if he goes out...a pretty good football player and would also make the team.  Of the IB kids at the high school, only 2 are currently in athletics because of the rigors.  We are a minority in our city as it is heavily Asian, the competition academically is beyond fierce.  We'll see how it goes, he has some decisions to make.  We've interviewed a few kids that did the IB program and those that did the AP program and played sports.  All ended up attending very good schools for college.  We're surrounded by two of the top 5 high schools in the country (one rating service  http://www.university-list.net/us/rank/school-100001.html  ) , so the academic influence here is non-stop...too much in my opinion.  They don't get to be kids in my opinion.

If IB is an option there is no question you pursue it. All of our kids did IB at English Schools Foundation in HK, Jakarta International School, St Mary's in Tokyo, and Tanglin Trust in Singapore. All three combined sports with IB and their classroom performance was fine. In fact, I believe that extracurriculars are mandatory in IB, including sports. If anything it really did hone their time management skills.

Son II ended up getting a football scholarship to Wazzou. He majored in Sports Med at WSU and parlayed that into Med School at Michigan so it's possible to play at a high level and still succeed in the classroom. If you were to ask him he will tell you he has had no life since arriving in the Palouse several years ago but I seem to recall he enjoyed himself quite a bit in Pullman. I think got a lot tougher once he arrived in Ann Arbor but that is med school anywhere.

Encourage your son to keep playing soccer while pursuing the IB. I know the Swiss Foundation makes sports participation mandatory so he might as well continue in a sport he excels at. If he has half the energy you seem to have he'll do just fine.

Quote from: LloydMooresLegs on April 04, 2013, 11:49:02 PM
And after legacies, athletes and arts programs are filled, there are even fewer spots

against whom a non athlete non legacy is competing  

None of this is correct.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 05, 2013, 09:08:13 PM
I wish you well.  We deal with McKinsey as well as Bain all the time.  Sometimes I want to pull my hair out, and other times I realize just how smart those bastards are.  I don't know if the expense justifies the return, but they are a smart bunch and they will tell you that.   ;D

My favorite McKinsey moment was when a snot nosed 25 year old MBA was lecturing the very well regarded Managing Director of GE Medical China on how to run his business. After about 10 minutes of incredibly condescending BS the 42 year old senior executive interrupted the Power Point Bataan Death March and asked the McKinsey kid in fluent Mandarin, "How many companies have you run?" The snot nosed MBA was perplexed and asked for a translation. The GE exec repeated the question in English and the McKinsey kid admitted he had never run a company. The GE exec kicked the snot nosed MBA out of his office, telling him to come back only when he spoke Mandarin and had actual success running a company in China.

 

Quote from: Terror Skink on April 05, 2013, 11:58:36 AM

Eh...

Impress with your accomplishments...not your hours.  I view my job as continuously working, just some times harder than other times.  I'm probably in the office about 40-45 hours a week, but that doesn't preclude me from working at home in the evenings or on the weekends.

45 hours wouldn't cut it in the best companies. And not because of lack of productivity.

Quote from: Goose on April 05, 2013, 08:56:51 PM
Forgetful

I am with you completely with you on work ethic. My Dad started with nothing and built a very successful business and worked long, long hours. I remember as a kid taking my Dad dinner with my Mom and watching eat while he worked. As a relatively small business owner, hoping to become  a little McKinsey I find myself working long, long hours like my Dad. I would not trade it for anything and still believe my company will become a little McKinsey.

Goose

I would love to hear more about what you are building. Sounds fun, actually. Hang tough my friend. Like a beautiful woman, China beguiles but the more frustrating and maddening she is the more you want her.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQOYGZny9HT2-OGNVT5WkOps9vE-S21honIJ0blH5LdhzLY4-1j) 

Sounds like a chick that knew what she wanted, was misinformed on how to obtain it, and is now pissed at the world. Reasonable, but that's life. Welcome to it! If she does what she needs to do at Michigan, there's a word called TRANSFER she might be interested in. Shhhh......Family Guy is on! Love that Stewie!

Quote from: keefe on April 06, 2013, 05:20:59 AM
My favorite McKinsey moment was when a snot nosed 25 year old MBA was lecturing the very well regarded Managing Director of GE Medical China on how to run his business. After about 10 minutes of incredibly condescending BS the 42 year old senior executive interrupted the Power Point Bataan Death March and asked the McKinsey kid in fluent Mandarin, "How many companies have you run?" The snot nosed MBA was perplexed and asked for a translation. The GE exec repeated the question in English and the McKinsey kid admitted he had never run a company. The GE exec kicked the snot nosed MBA out of his office, telling him to come back only when he spoke Mandarin and had actual success running a company in China.

 

Yup, that sounds about right.  Of course, they are not all like that, but I've had a few that spent months putting together something for us and I told them from day one the path they were going down we had tried numerous times, it doesn't work.  They decided against that advice, implemented it, and 4 months later yanked it out because...surprise...it didn't work.   

They do provide value, for us anyway, at the highest level in terms of strategy, looking out over the horizon 5, 10, 15 years.  Its when they get into some of the weeds that I get nervous because they aren't living, breathing this stuff 365 for 15 years like we have.

Quote from: keefe on April 05, 2013, 06:38:48 PM
This isn't actually correct. My wife and I have done interviews for Harvard and Columbia respectively. The university and gaining college send out a cheat sheet on the candidate and these notes are specific to that person. The focus is not on any sort of diversity, I can assure you. And yes, alumni interviews are a crucial hurdle in the process. An alumnus can and should be a gate keeper as this might be the first and only personal interaction the school has with the applicant before rendering an acceptance decision. I will tell you that we evaluated many things including table manners and social grace.

My High School senior daughter is gong to Harvard this fall.  And my understanding of the process is pretty much what keefe wrote.

Without laundry listing her accomplishments/resume I will summarize it by saying it is what you would expect of a kid going to Harvard.  But if their were two "x-factors" that helped here they were ...

* Harvard thinks highly of her school.  Throughout the year College representatives come to her High School to pitch kids on attending their school.  Harvard sent five people, including Bill Fitzsimmons, the head of admissions (he was quoted in the article on page 1).  The local chapter of the Harvard club invited all the applicants to a reception earlier this year (not just her school but other schools from the area).  Most of the other Ivies, Stanford, Wash U, most of the B1G, U of Chicago, etc made a similar kind of effort.  (She goes to a private independent school in Chicago).

Earlier I asked if the ivies send representatives to your school.  To the admission department some high schools mean more than others and they actively recruit kids from these high schools.  My impression is kids from those high schools "get the tie" as they have a proven track record of success at their college.  (Incidentally, 3 kids from her class are going to Harvard next fall and they will have a total of 8 from her school next year.  Her graduating class will be 106 next month.)

* The interview mattered.  For selective colleges these are not merely formalities or marketing/rah-rah sessions.  The interviewer is the "eyes and ears" of the admission department and both the interviewer and admission department take them seriously.  My daughter had contact with her interviewer several times after the first and formal interview was over.  Her interviewer was a well respected doctor in Chicago in her mid-40s who we did not know.  We thought her interviewer was feeling her out more and then decided to lobby for her admittance.  Again this is our impression so we believe, like keefe said, that these things matter.

Earlier it was noted that kids that go to selective colleges "check the boxes."  After going through this process the boxes are not the kid starting a charity or joining every club as the WSJ article says.  Instead those "boxes" are you school's reputation and your interview.

Finally, my daughter's high school had legacies of Harvard that did not get in.  My wife and I are MU grads.

Quote from: keefe on April 06, 2013, 04:49:27 AM
If IB is an option there is no question you pursue it. All of our kids did IB at English Schools Foundation in HK, Jakarta International School, St Mary's in Tokyo, and Tanglin Trust in Singapore. All three combined sports with IB and their classroom performance was fine. In fact, I believe that extracurriculars are mandatory in IB, including sports. If anything it really did hone their time management skills.

Son II ended up getting a football scholarship to Wazzou. He majored in Sports Med at WSU and parlayed that into Med School at Michigan so it's possible to play at a high level and still succeed in the classroom. If you were to ask him he will tell you he has had no life since arriving in the Palouse several years ago but I seem to recall he enjoyed himself quite a bit in Pullman. I think got a lot tougher once he arrived in Ann Arbor but that is med school anywhere.

Encourage your son to keep playing soccer while pursuing the IB. I know the Swiss Foundation makes sports participation mandatory so he might as well continue in a sport he excels at. If he has half the energy you seem to have he'll do just fine.

It's an interesting debate right now that several of the kids and the parents are all struggling with. I'd like him to do it.  My wife, smart gal and daughter of a MU grad (medical school) believes that we suffocating kids and taking away their childhood....other families are split as well.  He's going to start it freshman year and track through IB, but the program doesn't officially start until Sophomore through Senior years, so he can see how it's going.

I'll definitely encourage him on the soccer.  One of my great regrets in life is not walking on at MU for soccer.  There were a number of D3 schools I could have played at here that were very solid academically.  I opted for MU and heard so many horror stories about the coach back then that I didn't give it a whirl.  That sticks in my craw.

Quote from: jesmu84 on April 05, 2013, 12:56:49 PM
I agree with you on your statement about our inexperience in the real world. But then what separates us from the generations before? Why are we the "entitled" generation? What makes the older people call us that? Were they the same at one point in their lives and just don't realize it? Or do we actually have a different mentality and, if we do, how did that come to be?

I think they were at some point. I was delusional going into college and after graduating, I had that wake up call. I'm happy with where I am now. I'd have to lay blame on another cliche though: media and technology. Older generations didn't have online news, blogs, 24 news channels, FB, twitter and the YouTubes. The ease of sharing information and things that become popular quickly means stories are just easier to notice.

Basically, I'm sure many of us felt the way of the girl after getting rejected from a school. But even a college applicant in the mid-90s- even early 2000s that wrote this column for the WSJ would never have gotten the same level of attention

Just to clarify, not all legacies are created equal. Vast difference between a donor legacy and a legacy. In addition, the dude who throws a C note in the kitty the year Jr. applies, is not looked upon like the cat who has been writin' the check for the past 20 years.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2013, 09:59:33 AM
Yup, that sounds about right.  Of course, they are not all like that, but I've had a few that spent months putting together something for us and I told them from day one the path they were going down we had tried numerous times, it doesn't work.  They decided against that advice, implemented it, and 4 months later yanked it out because...surprise...it didn't work.   

They do provide value, for us anyway, at the highest level in terms of strategy, looking out over the horizon 5, 10, 15 years.  Its when they get into some of the weeds that I get nervous because they aren't living, breathing this stuff 365 for 15 years like we have.

At PepsiCo we used BCG more than McKinsey. Consultancies interfaced through Strat Planning so we spent hours together. I was generally more favorably impressed with BCG as they tried to know your business more than the McKinsey conceptual model approach. As such, BCG crafted more practical solutions that addressed real challenges. McKinsey is great at the high altitude stuff but in emerging markets prognostications are rubbish within 12-18 months.

Here is my bottom line: Big MNCs contract with consultancies for 3 basic reasons:

1. Every one knows the answer but it is so controversial that nobody wants their finger prints on it
2. There is a great internal divide on strategy or direction so consultants are brought in to cast the deciding vote
3. It enables painful decisions to be made, especially with regard to outsourcing, downsizing, or market/vertical exit

Getting insight because senior management is perplexed is the rarest of reasons to bring in consultants because of senior management ego. If this is genuinely the reason consultants are retained it is often couched in terms of being a periodic market health check. Corporate C-level execs rarely admit defeat or ignorance, from my experience. Jack Welch is a notable exception.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 06, 2013, 10:01:32 AM
My High School senior daughter is gong to Harvard this fall.  And my understanding of the process is pretty much what keefe wrote.

Without laundry listing her accomplishments/resume I will summarize it by saying it is what you would expect of a kid going to Harvard.  But if their were two "x-factors" that helped here they were ...

* Harvard thinks highly of her school.  Throughout the year College representatives come to her High School to pitch kids on attending their school.  Harvard sent five people, including Bill Fitzsimmons, the head of admissions (he was quoted in the article on page 1).  The local chapter of the Harvard club invited all the applicants to a reception earlier this year (not just her school but other schools from the area).  Most of the other Ivies, Stanford, Wash U, most of the B1G, U of Chicago, etc made a similar kind of effort.  (She goes to a private independent school in Chicago).

Earlier I asked if the ivies send representatives to your school.  To the admission department some high schools mean more than others and they actively recruit kids from these high schools.  My impression is kids from those high schools "get the tie" as they have a proven track record of success at their college.  (Incidentally, 3 kids from her class are going to Harvard next fall and they will have a total of 8 from her school next year.  Her graduating class will be 106 next month.)

* The interview mattered.  For selective colleges these are not merely formalities or marketing/rah-rah sessions.  The interviewer is the "eyes and ears" of the admission department and both the interviewer and admission department take them seriously.  My daughter had contact with her interviewer several times after the first and formal interview was over.  Her interviewer was a well respected doctor in Chicago in her mid-40s who we did not know.  We thought her interviewer was feeling her out more and then decided to lobby for her admittance.  Again this is our impression so we believe, like keefe said, that these things matter.

Earlier it was noted that kids that go to selective colleges "check the boxes."  After going through this process the boxes are not the kid starting a charity or joining every club as the WSJ article says.  Instead those "boxes" are you school's reputation and your interview.

Finally, my daughter's high school had legacies of Harvard that did not get in.  My wife and I are MU grads.

84

Congrats to your daughter on a wonderful milestone! She will have a tremendous experience. I was in no way ready for that challenge when I was 17. Marquette was perfect for me in many ways. I am certain your daughter is far smarter and much more mature than I was at her age!

I cannot stress how important is the alumnus interview for gaining acceptance into an Ivy. The interviewer can bring an app to a screeching halt. I have done this more than once. Most of my interviews were in Asia and many kids look great on paper but were too limited, shallow, or vertical in their thinking or experience to add something valuable to the university community. An important point is that the interviewer is not looking at how the school can help you. Quite the contrary. The Ivy looks at how the individual can benefit the college community while matriculating. Longer term we assess how this person will represent the university beyond the campus.

The Unabomber was graduated from both Michigan and Harvard. I believe both schools, in retrospect, looked at how limited and narrow he really was and reflected on the admission criteria that brought him into both communities. The man has a brilliant brain but is a fractured soul. The interview process as I know it would never consider such a one-dimensional person and would have weeded him out early on.

The interviewer considers many things including family. I know that both my wife and I received "gifts" from interviewee parents. In every case these were returned. This was a fine line for us because such customs are inherent in Asian culture but we were smart enough to discern between the gracious gesture and the blatant influence peddle. We felt comfortable returning gifts, which ranged from baskets to vouchers to cash, as we were judging entrance into a western institution. One applicant was superbly qualified and would have made a exceptional candidate but her father was shameless in his lobbying through money and gifts. Think of it as a shielding Harvard from Tim Maymon when I shut down her app. Ethics, integrity, and character most definitely factor in the decision.

An interviewer cannot always guarantee admission but can in every case deny it. This is a must-do hurdle for every applicant, except for a very few special legacies. Without betraying anything proprietary, an interviewer can ensure admission for a very select few candidates on the basis of certain stringent criteria. But that is the exception and not the rule. In most cases the interviewer does not recommend admission but when he does the name goes into a much smaller pool. The winnowing process does rely heavily on the strength of the interviewer's comments. Admissions staff can and do reach out for clarity and amplification. It is during this phase of dialogue when an interviewer can advocate aggressively to champion an applicant's cause.

Finally, there is exceptional integrity in the process. I was asked to interview the grandson of a government minister in Singapore. I recused myself as my employer was involved in a major enterprise with that Ministry. All of this was transparent to the applicant and his grandfather and the interview was handled by another alum who was involved in a completely different industry. This is much less an issue in Singapore where the rule of law is stringently observed but in other Asian jurisdictions it can be a problem.

84, best wishes to your daughter on her admission to Harvard college. I hope she finds the experience everything it can be!

Quote from: keefe on April 06, 2013, 02:33:13 PM
At PepsiCo we used BCG more than McKinsey. Consultancies interfaced through Strat Planning so we spent hours together. I was generally more favorably impressed with BCG as they tried to know your business more than the McKinsey conceptual model approach. As such, BCG crafted more practical solutions that addressed real challenges. McKinsey is great at the high altitude stuff but in emerging markets prognostications are rubbish within 12-18 months.

Here is my bottom line: Big MNCs contract with consultancies for 3 basic reasons:

1. Every one knows the answer but it is so controversial that nobody wants their finger prints on it
2. There is a great internal divide on strategy or direction so consultants are brought in to cast the deciding vote
3. It enables painful decisions to be made, especially with regard to outsourcing, downsizing, or market/vertical exit

Getting insight because senior management is perplexed is the rarest of reasons to bring in consultants because of senior management ego. If this is genuinely the reason consultants are retained it is often couched in terms of being a periodic market health check. Corporate C-level execs rarely admit defeat or ignorance, from my experience. Jack Welch is a notable exception.

Did you know Mike White at PepsiCo?

Pretty amazing the schools that MU offspring are going to.  Congratulations, all

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2013, 08:18:57 PM
Did you know Mike White at PepsiCo?

I did, actually. Mike was a Cola operator while I was a Food Strat Planner. I worked in Asia for PFI (PepsiCo Foods International) which went away in a reorg after I left. I had forgotten he left PepsiCo to take over DirecTV. Mike is very charismatic and has a memory like a steel trap. He would remember me from setting up a week in San Diego for Bob Hunter. Long story but Mike was part of the fun.

I am much more familiar with Steve Reinemund who was a Naval Aviator and UVA MBA. Reinemund always gave me sh1t about being an F 16 driver. Steve ran Pizza Hut out of Wichita and PHI - Asia/Pacific was part of my Strat Planning portfolio. He oversaw PH's aggressive international growth and marked ramp up in earnings which landed him the PepsiCo CEO job; his fastest and largest growth market was China so I had a lot of interaction with him.

I was a contemporary of Indra Nooyi. We were in Planning together at the same time though she was based out of Purchase. Indra is brilliant but she has struggled as PepsiCo's CEO. I have my thoughts on that but it's best I keep them off this board.

Is Mike still running you guys? I would like to think your clever ad copy has Mike's DNA in it. Certainly that Genie with spread legs holding your logo smacks of his brand of...wit.

Quote from: keefe on April 06, 2013, 08:42:59 PM
I did, actually. Mike was a Cola operator while I was a Food Strat Planner. I worked in Asia for PFI (PepsiCo Foods International) which went away in a reorg after I left. I had forgotten he left PepsiCo to take over DirecTV. Mike is very charismatic and has a memory like a steel trap. He would remember me from setting up a week in San Diego for Bob Hunter. Long story but Mike was part of the fun.

I am much more familiar with Steve Reinemund who was a Naval Aviator and UVA MBA. Reinemund always gave me sh1t about being an F 16 driver. Steve ran Pizza Hut out of Wichita and PHI - Asia/Pacific was part of my Strat Planning portfolio. He oversaw PH's aggressive international growth and marked ramp up in earnings which landed him the PepsiCo CEO job; his fastest and largest growth market was China so I had a lot of interaction with him.

I was a contemporary of Indra Nooyi. We were in Planning together at the same time though she was based out of Purchase. Indra is brilliant but she has struggled as PepsiCo's CEO. I have my thoughts on that but it's best I keep them off this board.

Is Mike still running you guys? I would like to think your clever ad copy has Mike's DNA in it. Certainly that Genie with spread legs holding your logo smacks of his brand of...wit.

Yes, Mike is still our CEO.  I had the honor of sitting with him at a table two months ago for our annual awards for marketing, sales, etc.  All of us that were up for the top award got to sit with the big man...a fun two hours. He does have a memory for a steel trap.  Smart as heck...anyone that self teaches himself Russian like he did is impressive.

He once came into my office with all my Marquette stuff and he said "Do you know Father Leahy?"  I had to tell him Father Leahy was one of my bosses at Marquette when I was there....it lead to a very long conversation about college athletics, Jesuit education (he's a BC grad), etc. 

He's done well for us.   

Actually, the ad stuff we do is straight out of our department...our CMO is brilliant (crazy, but brilliant  ;)) and Mike has consistent said our marketing is one of the best in the country, definitely the best in our industry.  I was rather surprised we brought in a CEO from outside the industry, but he has done a great job.  Stock is near $60 and it was in the high $20's when he took over if I recall....I'm not complaining.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2013, 08:18:57 PM
Did you know Mike White at PepsiCo?

Has it been five years yet?  Is he still weeping on national TV?

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on April 06, 2013, 09:00:32 PM
Has it been five years yet?  Is he still weeping on national TV?

Coaches...5 years.  Other jobs, not so much, but yes you still have to give it some time.  Simple reason, you are coaching other coaches players and you need to time to see how he will recruit, how other teams respond to his style, etc.

See Mike Deane.  See Bruiser Flint.  Etc.


Other jobs, no.  Not a good comparison at all.

Quote from: ElDonBDon on April 04, 2013, 02:42:20 PM
Michigan is a great, nay, superb school.  I'd even argue that it's better than Vandy by almost every measure.  

In any case, my advice to this girl is to stop comparing yourself to others; use your own past achievements as a measuring stick.  I find that going through life is much easier that way.

After one gets I to Michigan they have a separate school within Michigan called the honors program.  It has its own dorms and its own elective classes.  It's admittance rate is as low as an Ivy and these kids are considered the best Michigan has.

I wonder if Suzy Lee Weiss is in this program.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2013, 08:20:16 PM
Pretty amazing the schools that MU offspring are going to.  Congratulations, all

Thank you Keefe and CBB ... To be clear, I did not do anything, I just get the bill :)

AnotherMU84


My bet you were big part of her success. Plus, picking up the stiff is big responsibility. Congrats to your daughter!!

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 06, 2013, 09:25:18 PM
Thank you Keefe and CBB ... To be clear, I did not do anything, I just get the bill :)

Quit your day job and she'll go for boo.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 06, 2013, 09:25:18 PM
Thank you Keefe and CBB ... To be clear, I did not do anything, I just get the bill :)

Don't sell yourself short....you did plenty.

Hey CBB,
Tell your boss these new local sports fees suck.   ;D

Quote from: reinko on April 07, 2013, 10:11:33 AM
Hey CBB,
Tell your boss these new local sports fees suck.   ;D

You can tell me, I was part of implementing them.  Started a trend, FIOS, Uverse, Comcast, etc all doing it now.

Pretty simple, when teams like the Lakers, Yankees, Cavs, Astros, etc want more money per subscriber, we lose money there, so we're going to jack up the rates. in some markets where we are upside down.  Econ 101. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2013, 11:33:45 AM
You can tell me, I was part of implementing them.  Started a trend, FIOS, Uverse, Comcast, etc all doing it now.

Pretty simple, when teams like the Lakers, Yankees, Cavs, Astros, etc want more money per subscriber, we lose money there, so we're going to jack up the rates. in some markets where we are upside down.  Econ 101. 

Well this non Red Sox fan living in Boston is still unhappy, and while only a few sheckles a month, its fees like these that prevent me from getting things like the MLB package and HBO.

Quote from: reinko on April 07, 2013, 12:27:10 PM
Well this non Red Sox fan living in Boston is still unhappy, and while only a few sheckles a month, its fees like these that prevent me from getting things like the MLB package and HBO.

Come with me to Nepal. Help orphans, find yourself, experience enlightenment. Nirvana.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2775/4038578119_3551bdfd51_z.jpg?zz=1)

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.

Quote from: reinko on April 07, 2013, 12:27:10 PM
Well this non Red Sox fan living in Boston is still unhappy, and while only a few sheckles a month, its fees like these that prevent me from getting things like the MLB package and HBO.

I've yet to meet a person in the world that is happy when their costs go up.   ;)

Blame the Red Sox, they demand that they get carried in 82% of the market, which means that most base packages must have it.  They also demand they get paid $$$, so in order to make it work, we have to raise the rates.  Would love to be able to say only Red Sox fans in Boston have to pay for this, but the Red Sox don't want to do that because they'll lose their arse just like here in L.A. if only Lakers fans had to pay for that channel.

I totally get where you are coming from, but if the sports teams weren't demanding the rate and the penetration, it wouldn't be happening.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 07, 2013, 01:19:30 PM
I've yet to meet a person in the world that is happy when their costs go up.   ;)

Blame the Red Sox, they demand that they get carried in 82% of the market, which means that most base packages must have it.  They also demand they get paid $$$, so in order to make it work, we have to raise the rates.  Would love to be able to say only Red Sox fans in Boston have to pay for this, but the Red Sox don't want to do that because they'll lose their arse just like here in L.A. if only Lakers fans had to pay for that channel.

I totally get where you are coming from, but if the sports teams weren't demanding the rate and the penetration, it wouldn't be happening.

He who lives only for pleasures and possessions, and whose soul is not in harmony, who considers not the food he eats, is idle, and has not the power of virtue -- such a man is moved by possessions, is moved by selfish temptations, even as a weak tree is shaken by the wind.

The glorious chariots of kings wear out, and the body wears out and grows old; but the virtue of the good never grows old.

This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging.

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQX3UHpT7uYnH4kXNW-C7viSnJiGz_tp39tt3auX-JhMBqEzxXJBA)

Quote from: keefe on April 07, 2013, 03:18:53 PM
He who lives only for pleasures and possessions, and whose soul is not in harmony, who considers not the food he eats, is idle, and has not the power of virtue -- such a man is moved by possessions, is moved by selfish temptations, even as a weak tree is shaken by the wind.

The glorious chariots of kings wear out, and the body wears out and grows old; but the virtue of the good never grows old.

This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging.

(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQX3UHpT7uYnH4kXNW-C7viSnJiGz_tp39tt3auX-JhMBqEzxXJBA)

I concur.  Looking forward to retirement outside of this state, living a simple life.  Have a little patch of dirt in Idaho that I'm very much looking forward to escaping the stupidity of it all.

Quote from: keefe on April 07, 2013, 01:16:56 PM
Come with me to Nepal. Help orphans, find yourself, experience enlightenment. Nirvana.

(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2775/4038578119_3551bdfd51_z.jpg?zz=1)

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.

Beautiful picture.  I'm going to go there one of these days.  One of my employees is from there and has volunteered his families home if I ever want to go there.  I've been told to not go in winter as apparently they only have power at night to conserve energy.

A little late to the game here but after MU I went to grad school at ND. I had to do a TA orientation session that acclimated new grad students to ND. They told us that just over 50% of attending students (not sure of the % of admitted students) were 'special admits'. ie: legacy, athletes, family members of Holy Cross priests, family member of major donors, family member of faculty, etc. FIFTY PERCENT. I'm sure all schools are like this, but it's particularly true at ultra-elite schools.

So basically if you were a schmo off the street you had around half the chance of getting in as the numbers actually said. There's definitely a game to be played and a lot of it has to do simply with who you are.

Quote from: forgetful on April 07, 2013, 05:32:18 PM
Beautiful picture.  I'm going to go there one of these days.  One of my employees is from there and has volunteered his families home if I ever want to go there.  I've been told to not go in winter as apparently they only have power at night to conserve energy.

There is nothing more stunning than sunset in the Himalaya. But the real moment is seeing the canopy of stars framed by the world's tallest peaks. I have seen the night sky at sea and from a cockpit but neither compare to the starlit sky of the Mustang region.

I would guess your colleague is from Kathmandu. You need to pass through there and Durbar and Bhaktapur are definitely worth seeing. But the real gem of Nepal is in the Himalaya. I would recommend the Annapourna Circuit but I am sure your lad can steer you right. If you do come let me know as I can help with some arrangements, in the event. Our orphanages are up in the mountains but I fly a Dornier around and can actually give you a lift if you would like!

As for winter I would say that is the best time of year. Summer has the rains and the best visibility is in Nov-Mar. Trust me, electrical power is spotty at any time and up in the mountains it is generally non-existent. We run gen sets for our orphanages and many of my flights are to haul kerosene up into the hills.

You should know that up in the Himalaya there are roads but these are the footpaths that have facilitated commerce between China and India for millennia. The Silk Road is still there and everything still goes on pack animals. These animals vary by elevation. Loads are placed on horses. As you gain elevation they switch to mules, then yaks, then goats for the highest elevations. The passes are at 17K'. The airfield I fly supplies into is a two-day walk from where I am usually working.

(http://www.alltreknepal.com/images/stories/patan_durbar_square.jpg) 

Durbar Square, Patan

(http://gallery.photo.net/photo/15943574-md.jpg)

Dornier on Approach at Jomsom Airfield. The nose is canted like that for visibility in the mountains.

(http://www.grantdixonphotography.com.au/lib_images/NEP-2406.jpg)

Suspension bridges like this are the norm

(http://www.walkopedia.net/summer2012/online-magazine/pack-goat-jam.jpg)

Pack Goats will take cargo over the pass

This turned into a National Geographic thread now. 

Quote from: nyg on April 07, 2013, 06:54:04 PM
This turned into a National Geographic thread now. 

Hey, it's the off-season. We could speculate on where we think Buzz is headed because he hates the AD if you would like.

Quote from: amsteel on April 07, 2013, 06:10:47 PM
A little late to the game here but after MU I went to grad school at ND. I had to do a TA orientation session that acclimated new grad students to ND. They told us that just over 50% of attending students (not sure of the % of admitted students) were 'special admits'. ie: legacy, athletes, family members of Holy Cross priests, family member of major donors, family member of faculty, etc. FIFTY PERCENT. I'm sure all schools are like this, but it's particularly true at ultra-elite schools.

So basically if you were a schmo off the street you had around half the chance of getting in as the numbers actually said. There's definitely a game to be played and a lot of it has to do simply with who you are.

I am in no way disputing your figures but if that is true there is no way ND can maintain any standards. Helluva way to run a railroad that you want to run on time.

Quote from: nyg on April 07, 2013, 06:54:04 PM
This turned into a National Geographic thread now. 

where's the nekid natives?

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on April 07, 2013, 08:39:43 PM
where's the nekid natives?

I gotta have a beer with you someday.

Beer summit in F*ckin's backyard on the way to Noah's Ark.

Quote from: reinko on April 07, 2013, 12:27:10 PM
Well this non Red Sox fan living in Boston is still unhappy, and while only a few sheckles a month, its fees like these that prevent me from getting things like the MLB package and HBO.

Good article out today on this.


http://adage.com/article/media/sports-prices-soar-deliver-return-investment/240749/

An Open Letter to Suzy Lee Weiss
Posted: 04/11/2013 11:21 am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yingying-shang/an-open-letter-to-suzy-lee-weiss_b_3041458.html

Dear Suzy Lee Weiss,

My name is YingYing Shang, and I am also a current high school senior. To be specific, an Asian-American female from a relatively wealthy suburb of Philadelphia.

Going into the college admissions process, I was just as nervous as we all were. Just like you, I weighed my stats. I realized that if we were strictly talking profiles, I was perhaps even more disadvantaged than you were. Asian-Americans are an "overrepresented minority" at top colleges and need an SAT score of 140 points higher than average to be accepted to the same places. My parents are not "tiger parents," despite being immigrants, and like you, I've also never picked up a violin in my life. For three years, I was the slowest person on my school track team.

Coming from an Asian-American family that emphasizes education and a cultural context that placed far too much emphasis on Ivy names, I know the pressure that high school seniors can face. But I also know that none of us, no matter who we are or what we've done, is entitled to "the college of our dreams."

You say that, if you had known two years ago, you "would have gladly worn a headdress to school," come out of "any closet," and offered any "diversity -- Navajo, Pacific Islander, anything."

Here's a hint, Weiss: being a minority or LGBT is difficult for a reason. Minorities still earn less money, live more in poverty, and face pervasive discrimination. To all those accusing affirmative action of "stealing their place": your privilege and sense of entitlement is what causes you to call that place "yours" to begin with. As part of a majority culture, for the rest of your life, you will never face the overt and covert racism that a member of the minority faces. Your insensitive remark dismisses the very real lifelong struggles faced by minority and LGBT youth.

You go on to say that you would have gladly started a fake charity, gone to Africa, and pretended to save a starving child. I do go to a competitive high school and I do see students join community service for the sake of community service hours. However, many students also genuinely care about the world and the more than 1 billion people who struggle to survive on less than $1 per day. Global poverty is a real issue that many high school students care about and want to tackle. I do every day as part of the leadership team of the UN Foundation campaign Girl Up, raising money and funds for some of the world's most underprivileged girls. We have more than 300,000 girl supporters who are helping real girls in developing countries. Why can't you?

College admissions is a game of luck, that's true. Each Ivy League gets far more qualified applicants than it can possibly accept. But to everyone reading Suzy Lee Weiss's letter and feeling sympathy: it's not impossible. In the long run, colleges are looking for people who have real passion, real interests, and real humility. In other words, what we all look for in people.

I'm a little worried about you, Suzy. I'm a little worried about your lack of real passion or interest for any real problems in the world. I'm also worried about your sense of entitlement and lack of sympathy for those of different racial groups and in different circumstances. Lastly, I'm worried about all of the high school students who are reading your letter and throwing their hands up along with you, cursing the college admissions process instead of their own narrow-mindedness and apathy.

Luckily for you, college isn't the end of the world. You'll be fine. Maybe you'll even go on to be one of those world-changing kids whom you envy so much. And believe me, I want you to, because there is so much inequality, injustice, inefficiency in the world that needs fixing. But you can't possibly reach your full potential until you let go of the delusion that you deserve better and instead, see the larger evils that we all need to confront together.

By the way, future college applicants: don't give up hope. Despite my statistical disadvantages, failure at playing the piano, and less than perfect score on the SAT, I was accepted to Harvard, Yale and Princeton, and I'm still trying to find a way to say that without sounding pretentious. Find something you love and do well, and do it. Also: be yourself. Be the best version of yourself you can be. You can still watch Real Housewives besides.

Love,
YingYing Shang

I stumbled across this looking for something else ...

http://thejewishchronicle.net/view/full_story/22340640/article-Rejection-brings-fame-to-Pittsburgh-Allderdice-senior?instance=secondary_stories_left_column

Rejection brings fame to Pittsburgh Allderdice senior

April 25, 2013

When Pittsburgh Allderdice senior Suzy Lee Weiss received rejection letters from four Ivy League universities, she was devastated. On the advice of her sister, who works for The Wall Street Journal, she wrote her feelings down, culminating in an opinion piece she sent to the Journal entitled, "To All the Colleges That Rejected Me."

...

But traditional campus life will have to wait a bit for Suzy Weiss.

In a deal made with her parents in the event she did not get into an Ivy League school, Suzy has decided to take a gap year and enroll in Kivunim, a program that will be based in Israel but will allow her to travel to many countries while studying Hebrew and Arabic.  She'll apply the 30 college credits she'll earn to the University of Michigan in her sophomore year.  Because Ivy Leagues would not accept these credits, she said that it is "kind of a blessing in disguise because I think this next year is one I wouldn't have traded for an Ivy League degree." 

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 04, 2013, 02:03:06 PM
Ok, I guess I'm thick ... again what is the "game" that you must play to get into an elite school like Harvard?

Did you read the article, or just post it?  It breaks down - paragraph by paragraph - the game she is referring to.

Quote from: MarsupialMadness on May 14, 2013, 09:16:09 AM
Did you read the article, or just post it?  It breaks down - paragraph by paragraph - the game she is referring to.

Suzy Lee Weiss did not get into Harvard, or any other Ivy League school.  So whatever game she was playing was the wrong game.  This means her paragraph by paragraph breakdown is a road-map of how to get rejected.

Yet Lazar and others kept saying their was a "game" to getting into Harvard.

So, please explain what that game is and how those that get in play it and get accepted.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 04, 2013, 01:43:52 PM
there's nothing wrong with bein' a Wolverine.

Could not agree more, Doc! Hail yea!

Quote from: keefe on May 22, 2013, 12:29:15 AM
Could not agree more, Doc! Hail yea!

CHA-Ching!!!!   :o    ;)