If this is rebuilding, I can hardly wait for the construction to end!
When the season started, I was hoping for an NCAA berth, a few nice victories and kinda figured, "one and done." I didn't give anywhere near enough credit to Buzz and the returning guys. They're the real deal.
If this is the condition of our program -- a long-term coach, a Top 10 recruiting class and an experienced, battle tested and Big East leader returning in 2013-2014, then we're well on our way to being where we were during the best of the Al days.
Also, with college basketball so weak and so diluted this year, anyone in the Top 25 probably has a chance to get hot and significantly exceed anyone's expectations. Especially us, as long as we can start winning away from Milwaukee. Take care of business against Notre Dame and then it's time to show what we really have!
I don't get this thought that early on people expected us to struggle.
Here's what I saw:
- We had 2 returning, established big men (albeit one with a health issue)
- We had a senior PG in his 3rd year as a starter
- We had a Top 40 junior bound to make the leap
- We had a 4th year junior with an NBA body bound to make the leap
- We had a enigmatic 22 year old sophomore oozing with talent who has a brother in the NBA
- We had a coach who is coming off back to back Sweet 16s
Personally I thought we'd end up 13-5 and content for an Elite 8. This is 2013, all those things add up to contention.
I saw a team that lost half of its offense and nearly all of of its leadership. To be 11-4 in this conference surprises the hell out of me. Buzz has gotten the absolute maximum out of this club.
Quote from: The Lens on February 26, 2013, 09:48:13 AM
I don't get this thought that early on people expected us to struggle.
Here's what I saw:
- We had 2 returning, established big men (albeit one with a health issue)
- We had a senior PG in his 3rd year as a starter
- We had a Top 40 junior bound to make the leap
- We had a 4th year junior with an NBA body bound to make the leap
- We had a enigmatic 22 year old sophomore oozing with talent who has a brother in the NBA
- We had a coach who is coming off back to back Sweet 16s
Personally I thought we'd end up 13-5 and content for an Elite 8. This is 2013, all those things add up to contention.
I'm not sure a lot of people expected vander or Jamil to make that huge of a leap this year...but they have. Jamil is becoming more consistent which helps.
I think the biggest reason a majority of the expectations were low this year was the fact that nearly 75% of our scoring graduated last year.
If we can limit our turnovers we are a pretty tough out.
I am already waiting for the "how will they ever replace Cadougan and Lockett" threads to start for next year.... the doom and gloom this team will not be good this year has been a 5 year running theme on all MU boards (how will they replace the triplets, how will they replace lazar, how will they replace Jimmy Butler, how will they replace DJO and Crowder). Maybe finally people realize Buzz recruits well, develops players and adapts to the talents the team has. Must keep Buzz or get extremely lucking to find somebody who has his amazing coaching talent.
Quote from: The Lens on February 26, 2013, 09:48:13 AM
I don't get this thought that early on people expected us to struggle.
Here's what I saw:
- We had 2 returning, established big men (albeit one with a health issue)
- We had a senior PG in his 3rd year as a starter
- We had a Top 40 junior bound to make the leap
- We had a 4th year junior with an NBA body bound to make the leap
- We had a enigmatic 22 year old sophomore oozing with talent who has a brother in the NBA
- We had a coach who is coming off back to back Sweet 16s
Personally I thought we'd end up 13-5 and content for an Elite 8. This is 2013, all those things add up to contention.
Quote from: The Lens on February 26, 2013, 09:48:13 AM
I don't get this thought that early on people expected us to struggle.
Here's what I saw:
- We had 2 returning, established big men (albeit one with a health issue)
- We had a senior PG in his 3rd year as a starter
- We had a Top 40 junior bound to make the leap
- We had a 4th year junior with an NBA body bound to make the leap
- We had a enigmatic 22 year old sophomore oozing with talent who has a brother in the NBA
- We had a coach who is coming off back to back Sweet 16s
Personally I thought we'd end up 13-5 and content for an Elite 8. This is 2013, all those things add up to contention.
Here is some of what people thought
- Not established big men. Otule had yet to see a full productive year. Davante was on the up, but still question marks on stamina and defense.
- Define "bound to make the leap".
- We "had" an enigmatic sophomore? So meaning his up and down play since getting over the suspension won't continue? Glad you can see into the future, but i really do hope this is the case.
- You also forgot that we lost a Big East Player of the year
- We lost two draft picks (both of whom averaged 30+ minutes a game)
- We lost almost 50% of our scoring production and 40% of our rebound production
Hindsight on how the year has gone so far is 20/20. Great win last night, but by no means does our win over Syracuse mean that we are guaranteed to continue our great play. Look at the second half of Seton Hall and how the game at nova turned out? There is still a lot of basketball left and we can't expect to play like that for 40 minutes every game the rest of the season.
Lens
Your post regarding what you saw coming into the season was right on. From my perspective I thought too many ifs going into season to be overly optimistic. Give you credit for being right on for the most part. Though I would be beyond shocked if we made it to second weekend in NCAA.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on February 26, 2013, 09:59:33 AM
I am already waiting for the "how will they ever replace Cadougan and Lockett" threads to start for next year.... the doom and gloom this team will not be good this year has been a 5 year running theme on all MU boards (how will they replace the triplets, how will they replace lazar, how will they replace Jimmy Butler, how will they replace DJO and Crowder). Maybe finally people realize Buzz recruits well, develops players and adapts to the talents the team has. Must keep Buzz or get extremely lucking to find somebody who has his amazing coaching talent.
Not bad for a consistent 5th through 9th place team? Or was it 4th through 10th?
I thought they would struggle early and play better as the season went on.
Lots of talent, but guys are stepping into new roles, which causes growing pains. You could see this in the close games. Sometimes they were able to close, sometimes not.
They are about where I thought they would be. They still don't have top notch player that can cover up mistakes (see: Nova). But when they are playing well, they are tough to beat because they are so deep and Buzz is getting better at using all of his pieces.
They could get hot in March if the match-ups go their way.
Next year's roster is loaded. Most/all of the key players are coming back, and they should be playing similar roles. Growing pains should be minimized.
And I foresaw a 74-71 win over Syracuse. Of course, it's easy to say I foresaw that after it happened.
As for madtown saying he's already waiting for the "how will they ever replace Cadougan and Lockett" threads, I'm hoping he meant to put that in teal. Unless he's serious because -- like Butler, Crowder, DJO, Hayward, the Amigos, Novak, Diener and Wade -- Cadougan and Lockett are future NBA players.
At some point you just need to put your faith in Buzz and get out of the way. The dude just keeps on trucking.
Screw this year. We will be so loaded next year! And so much better at PG. Sorry Cadougon supporters.
Quote from: The Lens on February 26, 2013, 10:15:11 AM
At some point you just need to put your faith in Buzz and get out of the way. The dude just keeps on trucking.
Amen brother.
Quote from: Dreadman24 on February 26, 2013, 10:21:42 AM
Screw this year. We will be so loaded next year! And so much better at PG. Sorry Cadougon supporters.
With a Sophomore and a Freshman as our PGs? I think a lot of people are seriously underestimating Cadougan's value on this team. He does make his fair share of mistakes, but I don't see how Duane Wilson (The great player he will be) is better than Cadougan day 1. Beyond that, D-Wil will be starting... and he has no offensive game.
Short of Wilson developing a strong offensive game this summer, I can't believe we will be better at PG next year.
Quote from: MU82 on February 26, 2013, 10:14:43 AM
And I foresaw a 74-71 win over Syracuse. Of course, it's easy to say I foresaw that after it happened.
As for madtown saying he's already waiting for the "how will they ever replace Cadougan and Lockett" threads, I'm hoping he meant to put that in teal. Unless he's serious because -- like Butler, Crowder, DJO, Hayward, the Amigos, Novak, Diener and Wade -- Cadougan and Lockett are future NBA players.
On the contrary, I think people will have unreasonably high expectations for next year due to the perception that we are not losing much and the strength of our recruiting class. I have high expectations too, but you don't need a crystal ball to anticipate people on this board next year after a tough loss saying, "We miss Cadougan more than we thought. Sure he turned it over a bit, but at least he didn't ..." (fill in with whatever D Wilsons' perceived weaknesses are next year).
Quote from: Dreadman24 on February 26, 2013, 10:21:42 AM
Screw this year. We will be so loaded next year! And so much better at PG. Sorry Cadougon supporters.
Yeah! Screw this year!
Good to know that Dreadman24 has watched his last game until next season's opener.
Quote from: MU82 on February 26, 2013, 10:14:43 AM
And I foresaw a 74-71 win over Syracuse. Of course, it's easy to say I foresaw that after it happened.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34105.msg416209#msg416209
I've been here since November.
Quote from: MU82 on February 26, 2013, 10:25:45 AM
Yeah! Screw this year!
Good to know that Dreadman24 has watched his last game until next season's opener.
Haha
Quote from: The Lens on February 26, 2013, 10:15:11 AM
At some point you just need to put your faith in Buzz and get out of the way. The dude just keeps on trucking.
We are fortunate to have him at the helm. Makes the most of what he has and doesn't whinge and whine. Refreshing.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 26, 2013, 10:24:58 AM
With a Sophomore and a Freshman as our PGs? I think a lot of people are seriously underestimating Cadougan's value on this team. He does make his fair share of mistakes, but I don't see how Duane Wilson (The great player he will be) is better than Cadougan day 1. Beyond that, D-Wil will be starting... and he has no offensive game.
Short of Wilson developing a strong offensive game this summer, I can't believe we will be better at PG next year.
For the record, I am personally excited for next year because there is a lot of experience returning, including a decent Jr. PG (De. Wilson).
The frosh. are certainly intriguing. I think that 1 of them will earn significant minutes make an impact. The others will have to earn spot minutes like Taylor has done this year.
Derrick Wilson is not a great player, but if you surround him with good offensive talent, he'll be solid. His assist/TO ratio is good, and he plays physical defense.
Solid but not spectacular is fine at the PG position with the rest of the guys they are returning. Blue, J. Wilson, Mayo, Gardner and even Taylor Jr. could all average 10+ PPG. Sprinkle in some good role players (like Derrick, Otule, Juan, and (insert player), and the roster rounds out very nicely.
Outside shooting could still be an issue, but hopefully each of the guys gets a little better again in the off season. Don't have to have a Novak type, but as a team, making outside shots will help them spread some teams out.
Plus, defensively, I love that team. If Chris returns, that makes a big difference defensively.
Quote from: The Lens on February 26, 2013, 09:48:13 AM
I don't get this thought that early on people expected us to struggle.
Here's what I saw:
- We had 2 returning, established big men (albeit one with a health issue) - I wouldn't call Otule established heading into this year, and Gardner was a nice offensive player with stamina and defensive issues
- We had a senior PG in his 3rd year as a starter - Agree, but a very uneven career and not a star
- We had a Top 40 junior bound to make the leap - This is the biggest difference. By no means based on his first two seasons was I convinced that Vander was "bound to make the leap". Didn't even think it was probable and never expected a year as good as this. I was wrong.
- We had a 4th year junior with an NBA body bound to make the leap - I thought this, too, and I was wrong. He's been coming on, but I thought JWil would be our star by now.
- We had a enigmatic 22 year old sophomore oozing with talent who has a brother in the NBA - We didn't even know if he was ever going to suit up when the season started.
- We had a coach who is coming off back to back Sweet 16s - Sure did.
Personally I thought we'd end up 13-5 and content for an Elite 8. This is 2013, all those things add up to contention. - I thought 10-8 bubble team. When you consider Blue is the only player really playing head and shoulders above how I thought he would, I guess I was overly pessimistic.
If Chris returns, are we one over?
we shall see - they have the opportunity to play themselves anywhere from the top 1 or 2 (by winning the next three) to a chance to finish 5th (by losing the next three).
I sure hope they step up and seize the opportunity facing them and get a great seed in the tourney. But of course 2 of the games are on the road and we all know how hard it is to win on the road (at least that what everybody says when they lose on the road to teams of lesser talent). And they play ND...
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on February 26, 2013, 10:03:41 AM
Not bad for a consistent 5th through 9th place team? Or was it 4th through 10th?
Quote from: The Lens on February 26, 2013, 10:27:01 AM
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34105.msg416209#msg416209
I've been here since November.
You said we'd beat Ohio State. You could not have been more wrong.
Quote from: Victor McCormick on February 26, 2013, 11:57:34 AM
You said we'd beat Ohio State. You could not have been more wrong.
Mother Nature is undefeated. I should have seen that one coming.
I thought this was going to be what the Red Sox call a "bridge year." This group has already exceeded my expectations. Indeed, if this was to be a rebuilding year, props to Buzz, and the guys.
The landscape of college basketball is changing. The blue bloods will get the one and doners and thats fine with me. Most of them are drafted into the NBA based on potential not production anyway.
I think Marquette will benefit from the current state of collegiate basketball. With JUCO's who are hungry to prove something with a chip on there shoulder and players that develop over time we have a TEAM.
There were a LOT of people who pre-season thought we'd be 13-5
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34105.0 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34105.0)
Sitting at 11-4 with three to go suggests we're pretty much matching the expectations of a lot of folks.
My predictions were in there for all to see as well
--I said we'd have 3 non-conferene losses--although the teams were different.
--I thought we'd stuggle in Buzz's suspension game against UConn. We won.
--I thought we'd lose at Pitt--we won in OT
--I thought we'd beat Villanova--we lost narrowly
So far, we're pretty much matching my expectations.
For the rest of the season:
--I thought we'd split the SU/ND pair, but wasn't commited as to which we'd win.
--I thought we'd split the SJU/Rutgers pair.
Obviously I hope I'm wrong about the last two predictions--but I'm not in the camp that we're doing anything unexpected.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 26, 2013, 01:53:32 PM
There were a LOT of people who pre-season thought we'd be 13-5
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34105.0 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34105.0)
Sitting at 11-4 with three to go suggests we're pretty much matching the expectations of a lot of folks.
My predictions were in there for all to see as well
--I said we'd have 3 non-conferene losses--although the teams were different.
--I thought we'd stuggle in Buzz's suspension game against UConn. We won.
--I thought we'd lose at Pitt--we won in OT
--I thought we'd beat Villanova--we lost narrowly
So far, we're pretty much matching my expectations.
For the rest of the season:
--I thought we'd split the SU/ND pair, but wasn't commited as to which we'd win.
--I thought we'd split the SJU/Rutgers pair.
Obviously I hope I'm wrong about the last two predictions--but I'm not in the camp that we're doing anything unexpected.
You thought we'd go 11-7. If we go 14-4 and win the conference, wouldn't that be SLIGHTLY above expectations? Or are you just saying MU hasn't exceeded your expectations YET?
Quote from: The Lens on February 26, 2013, 10:27:01 AM
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34105.msg416209#msg416209
I've been here since November.
Be honest... when you said "Win 2 of these 3: Bucky, @UWGB & LSU", did you even think it was a possibility for you to be right this way?
Quote from: Jajuannaman on February 26, 2013, 02:31:52 PM
You thought we'd go 11-7. If we go 14-4 and win the conference, wouldn't that be SLIGHTLY above expectations? Or are you just saying MU hasn't exceeded your expectations YET?
Yes, of course--thats why don't just predict an overall record, but show game-by-game. So far, we've been pretty close.
On the other hand--as much as you probably don't want to admit it, it would also reflect other teams underperforming expectations--namely Pitt, Cincy and Syracuse. Who had Cincy sitting with a losing record this late in the season? Who thought Syracuse would have five losses? Or Louisville four?
Finally, I think this thread from November shows the selective memory of those on this board. I was one of the more pessimistic at 11-7. A lot of us here had us at 13-5. I'll bet that some of those are now part of the "nobody predicted us to do well -- our current sucess is completely unexpected." Well I'm sorry, but if you predicted 13-5 and we go 14-4, we're pretty close to your expectations.
And all those who say "nobody had high expectations for this team" are simply wrong.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 26, 2013, 10:24:58 AM
With a Sophomore and a Freshman as our PGs? I think a lot of people are seriously underestimating Cadougan's value on this team. He does make his fair share of mistakes, but I don't see how Duane Wilson (The great player he will be) is better than Cadougan day 1. Beyond that, D-Wil will be starting... and he has no offensive game.
Short of Wilson developing a strong offensive game this summer, I can't believe we will be better at PG next year.
Hards is extraordinarily correct here. Duane Wilson has played a grand total of zero games of D1, Big East point guard. D-Wil is starting .. and let's not forget his performance to date: near zero offensive production beyond assists, i.e., no need to guard him.
Lots of irrational Cadougan haters out there. Yeah, he might be the ~8th best starting PG in the Big East, and no where near his MU PG predecessors .. but he must be doing something right. We're a half game out of first place.
Quote from: The Lens on February 26, 2013, 10:27:01 AM
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34105.msg416209#msg416209
I've been here since November.
I bow to your predicting greatness, Carnac! Please accept my apologies.
And please let me call you when I'm in Vegas next for some advice!!!!
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 27, 2013, 08:28:22 AM
Hards is extraordinarily correct here.
"Extraordinarily?" You mean Hards usually isn't all that correct? ;)
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on February 26, 2013, 10:47:47 AM
For the record, I am personally excited for next year because there is a lot of experience returning, including a decent Jr. PG (De. Wilson).
The frosh. are certainly intriguing. I think that 1 of them will earn significant minutes make an impact. The others will have to earn spot minutes like Taylor has done this year.
Derrick Wilson is not a great player, but if you surround him with good offensive talent, he'll be solid. His assist/TO ratio is good, and he plays physical defense.
Solid but not spectacular is fine at the PG position with the rest of the guys they are returning. Blue, J. Wilson, Mayo, Gardner and even Taylor Jr. could all average 10+ PPG. Sprinkle in some good role players (like Derrick, Otule, Juan, and (insert player), and the roster rounds out very nicely.
Outside shooting could still be an issue, but hopefully each of the guys gets a little better again in the off season. Don't have to have a Novak type, but as a team, making outside shots will help them spread some teams out.
Plus, defensively, I love that team. If Chris returns, that makes a big difference defensively.
Derrick Wilson has not really had to be a Big East PG yet. A few minutes here, a few minutes there, with very low expectations is a completely different scenario than having to start and play important, crunch-time minutes.
Even last year, when we had Jae and DJO to take the big shots, we were at our best when our PG played above and beyond just being a don't-make-mistakes, play-it-careful guy.
PG is the most important position in basketball. We will miss Good Junior next year but won't miss Bad Junior. Hopefully, Good Duane will be ready to play 15-20 mins or even do a passable Dominic impersonation. Because I have seen nothing these last 2 years to convince me that Derrick Wilson is a major-college starting PG.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 27, 2013, 08:41:10 AM
"Extraordinarily?" You mean Hards usually isn't all that correct? ;)
lol
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 27, 2013, 07:47:52 AM
Yes, of course--thats why don't just predict an overall record, but show game-by-game. So far, we've been pretty close.
On the other hand--as much as you probably don't want to admit it, it would also reflect other teams underperforming expectations--namely Pitt, Cincy and Syracuse. Who had Cincy sitting with a losing record this late in the season? Who thought Syracuse would have five losses? Or Louisville four?
Finally, I think this thread from November shows the selective memory of those on this board. I was one of the more pessimistic at 11-7. A lot of us here had us at 13-5. I'll bet that some of those are now part of the "nobody predicted us to do well -- our current sucess is completely unexpected." Well I'm sorry, but if you predicted 13-5 and we go 14-4, we're pretty close to your expectations.
And all those who say "nobody had high expectations for this team" are simply wrong.
You are picking one snapshot in time, (before the season when every one is optimistic). I bet people were not so optimistic after the fla game but more optimistic after the WI game. That is what fans do, just read this board after a loss to know that
Quote from: MU82 on February 27, 2013, 08:46:16 AM
Derrick Wilson has not really had to be a Big East PG yet. A few minutes here, a few minutes there, with very low expectations is a completely different scenario than having to start and play important, crunch-time minutes.
Even last year, when we had Jae and DJO to take the big shots, we were at our best when our PG played above and beyond just being a don't-make-mistakes, play-it-careful guy.
PG is the most important position in basketball. We will miss Good Junior next year but won't miss Bad Junior. Hopefully, Good Duane will be ready to play 15-20 mins or even do a passable Dominic impersonation. Because I have seen nothing these last 2 years to convince me that Derrick Wilson is a major-college starting PG.
Except for the PITT game.
Now, I'm not going to take 1 game and extrapolate that, but he's a Soph. guard who is a decent role player.
I have reasonable expectations that he can be a little better next year. Plus I'm hoping that everybody else gets better (esp. shooting), so having a pass-first defensive PG will be fine.
Plus, he's not the only PG option on the roster, so I think Buzz will be able to mix and match.
People on Scoop are fans of the program and as such tend to see facts sprinkled with a touch of optimism, especially in the preseason. None of the people who get paid to know this stuff, Pomeroy, Vegas, coaches, writers, Dickie V etc., thought we would be this good. It is a recurring theme since Buzz arrived. Kudos to him and to the players.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 27, 2013, 09:21:52 AM
People on Scoop are fans of the program and as such tend to see facts sprinkled with a touch of optimism, especially in the preseason. None of the people who get paid to know this stuff, Pomeroy, Vegas, coaches, writers, Dickie V etc., thought we would be this good. It is a recurring theme since Buzz arrived. Kudos to him and to the players.
Of course Kudos to Buzz and players.
But at the same time let's not fall into the false narrative that most people expected a terrible season. The coaches thought we'd finish 7th place--still a very strong performance, and an NCAA caliber team--last year UL got a 4 seed, before that Cincy got a 6 seed.
The way some people around here are posting you'd get the impression that we were a consensus pre-season pick as an NIT team. That's simply not the case.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 27, 2013, 11:53:09 AM
Of course Kudos to Buzz and players.
But at the same time let's not fall into the false narrative that most people expected a terrible season. The coaches thought we'd finish 7th place--still a very strong performance, and an NCAA caliber team--last year UL got a 4 seed, before that Cincy got a 6 seed.
The way some people around here are posting you'd get the impression that we were a consensus pre-season pick as an NIT team. That's simply not the case.
We were a consensus bubble team. Pomeroy said 9/9.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 27, 2013, 11:53:09 AM
Of course Kudos to Buzz and players.
But at the same time let's not fall into the false narrative that most people expected a terrible season. The coaches thought we'd finish 7th place--still a very strong performance, and an NCAA caliber team--last year UL got a 4 seed, before that Cincy got a 6 seed.
The way some people around here are posting you'd get the impression that we were a consensus pre-season pick as an NIT team. That's simply not the case.
What was the consensus on this board after we got beat by UWGB?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 27, 2013, 11:59:55 AM
We were a consensus bubble team. Pomeroy said 9/9.
No we weren't. Now you're just making crap up.
The Big East coaches picked us for 7th in the league (which recent history suggests is a 4-6 seed).
http://www.bigeast.org/News/tabid/435/Article/237995/Louisville-Chosen-Unanimously-For-First-Place-In-Preseason-Coaches'-Poll.aspx
The initial AP had us ranked 34th and ESPN 36th (equates more like an 8 or 9 seed).
Athlon had us picked 4th in the leauge and "two and done" in the touranment.
http://www.athlonsports.com/nfl/big-east-2012-13-college-basketball-preview
Blue Ribbon had us picked 5th:
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/etc/outlook-bright-for-wisconsin-and-marquette-basketball-b278u3f-174682441.html
Fox Sports had us 6th:
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/04/college-basketball-preview-big-east-conference/
Cracked Sidewalks concensus was a 12-6 record:
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2012/11/2012-2013-predictions.html
Value Add actually said MU would be favord in 15 of 18 games:
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2012/09/mu-big-east-schedule-despite-lacking.html
Maybe Pomoroy did pick us as a bubble team---without you providing the link, I suspect that this another one of your "recollections" that differ from reality--but even if Pomeroy DID pick us as a bubble team, it was hardly a "consensus."
Bnless something that hasn't happened in a decade--a 4th to 7th place Big East team with a 12-6 record falls to the NCAA bubble--the reality is that almost NOBODY thought we were a bubble team.
The predictions here echoed what nearly everyone in the world thought--upper half of the big east, NCAA team, not as good as last year.
And now that I've gone back to re-read the pre-seaosn reviews, the more I conclude that we are where we are today not becuase we're doing anything unexpected, but based on the fact that we are the beneficiaries (along with Georgetown) of huget let-downs by UL and Syracuse and to a lesser extend Pitt and Notre Dame.
So again, enough with the false narrative that nobody expected us to be good.
So the consensus heading into the season was that MU would finish somewhere between fourth and seventh in conference.
With three winnable games remaining, MU is well-positioned to finish in the top three, and perhaps even win the league.
No one could reasonably argue that MU isn't exceeding expectations.
You're all just debating to what degree.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 27, 2013, 02:10:30 PM
So the consensus heading into the season was that MU would finish somewhere between fourth and seventh in conference.
With three winnable games remaining, MU is well-positioned to finish in the top three, and perhaps even win the league.
No one could reasonably argue that MU isn't exceeding expectations.
You're all just debating to what degree.
Yep. With one arguing that it isn't MU exceeding expectations, it's just other teams sucking. Awesome.
My debate is with myself. I thought I was being optimistic when I said 9-9 in the league and on the bubble. Now here we are, still with a chance to win the league with 10 days left in the season. In this case, being wrong is wonderful!
Quote from: Jajuannaman on February 27, 2013, 02:33:47 PM
Yep. With one arguing that it isn't MU exceeding expectations, it's just other teams sucking. Awesome.
Yeah. Other teams that STARTED sucking AFTER the Big East season began. He is what he is and fools absolutely no one
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 27, 2013, 01:55:15 PM
And now that I've gone back to re-read the pre-seaosn reviews, the more I conclude that we are where we are today not becuase we're doing anything unexpected, but based on the fact that we are the beneficiaries (along with Georgetown) of huget let-downs by UL and Syracuse and to a lesser extend Pitt and Notre Dame.
So again, enough with the false narrative that nobody expected us to be good.
Logic fail. If Syracuse and Pitt both win all their respective games against us, are they not having a let-down?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 27, 2013, 04:32:01 PM
Yeah. Other teams that STARTED sucking AFTER the Big East season began. He is what he is and fools absolutely no one
The only people here trying to fool anyone are those who promote the fiction that were a bubble team or worse at the start of the year.
Your typical sandbagging has gotten worse over the years. Now instead of just setting artifically low expectations up front, you now create non-existent low expectations after the fact.
Quote from: jmayer1 on February 27, 2013, 05:14:00 PM
Logic fail. If Syracuse and Pitt both win all their respective games against us, are they not having a let-down?
Exactly - MU & Georgetown have CONTRIBUTED to many of those losses for the supposed "let down" teams.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 27, 2013, 05:21:51 PM
The only people here trying to fool anyone are those who promote the fiction that were a bubble team or worse at the start of the year.
Your typical sandbagging has gotten worse over the years. Now instead of just setting artifically low expectations up front, you now create non-existent low expectations after the fact.
My sandbagging prediction at the start of the year was that the experts said 7th and I expected better. Look it up, Mr Auditor. Anything more than that is well beyond your competence.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 27, 2013, 07:04:35 PM
My sandbagging prediction at the start of the year was that the experts said 7th and I expected better. Look it up, Mr Auditor. Anything more than that is well beyond your competence.
Instead casting more insults, you really should apologize for trying to pass of the lie that preseason the experts had us as a consensus bubble team.
Even now you're trying to fudge. I already posted the links--the experts didn't say 7th--they had opinions that ranged from 4th place (Athlon) to 7th place (BE Coaches).
Quote from: Jajuannaman on February 27, 2013, 05:27:42 PM
Exactly - MU & Georgetown have CONTRIBUTED to many of those losses for the supposed "let down" teams.
Can we at least agree that MU had nothing to do with Louisville and Cincinnati fallling behind us?
We can disagree on whether Syracuse or ND or Pitt were expected to have 5 or 6 losses at this point of the season. But I think you'd admit that we had no part of moving ahead of UL and UC--that's all them playing below expectations.
The only other question I'll ask: How do you know our wins over Syracuse and Pitt were becuase we played above expectations, and not that Pitt and Syracuse played below expectations?
SJS, you are one funny guy. My expectations every year of the Buzz era have been equal to or slightly higher than the coaches who coach and the writers who write in and on the Big East. Somehow in the bizarro world you inhabit this is considered sandbagging. You on the other hand routinely set expectations higher to much higher than those experts yet call that fair. LOL
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 27, 2013, 07:48:05 PM
The only other question I'll ask: How do you know our wins over Syracuse and Pitt were becuase we played above expectations, and not that Pitt and Syracuse played below expectations?
How do you know the sky is blue and not just the lack of any other color?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 27, 2013, 10:59:06 PM
SJS, you are one funny guy. My expectations every year of the Buzz era have been equal to or slightly higher than the coaches who coach and the writers who write in and on the Big East.
Claiming that the experts called us "a consensus bubble team" when those experts in fact picked us to finish in a range from 4th to 7th is sandbagging.
Quote from: jmayer1 on February 28, 2013, 12:04:36 AM
How do you know the sky is blue and not just the lack of any other color?
Here's your answer:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/BlueSky/blue_sky.html
Now, why don't you provide an answer to my question: How can you be so sure that our wins over Pitt were due to us playing better than expected and not them underperforming.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 28, 2013, 09:20:54 AM
Now, why don't you provide an answer to my question: How can you be so sure that our wins over Pitt were due to us playing better than expected and not them underperforming.
Pitt was ranked in the preseason polls 32nd (AP) and 35th (coaches).
They're currently 23rd and 26th, respectively.
They seem to be playing slightly above expectations.
But maybe they magically play below expectations when facing Marquette, or whatever stupid thing you can think of next.
We've played a role in those two teams being behind us. If we don't win as many games as we have, those teams would be in front of us. It isn't all about head to head.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 28, 2013, 09:18:15 AM
Claiming that the experts called us "a consensus bubble team" when those experts in fact picked us to finish in a range from 4th to 7th is sandbagging.
Again you are talking about preseason predictions. Early in the season after losses to Fla, and Green Bay people on this board and elsewhere were predicting NIT. You seem to have the time to do the research, go back and look at what people were saying around December 20th. Go look at where we were in the polls.
The way the team came back to play well, ( for the most part) in conference play and is challenging for a Big East title is remarkable. If it wasn't remarkable Buzz wouldn't be in consideration for COY. They don't give that award out to coaches whose teams just meet expectations. For you to minimize the achievements the team has made to this point is just horse crap.
For the sake of argument let's say you are correct and people are sandbagging expectations as you say. So fricking what. That is what fans do. Maybe you should become one for another team.
Quote from: hairyworthen on February 28, 2013, 09:44:45 AM
Again you are talking about preseason predictions. Early in the season after losses to Fla, and Green Bay people on this board and elsewhere were predicting NIT. You seem to have the time to do the research, go back and look at what people were saying around December 20th. Go look at where we were in the polls.
The way the team came back to play well, ( for the most part) in conference play and is challenging for a Big East title is remarkable. If it wasn't remarkable Buzz wouldn't be in consideration for COY. They don't give that award out to coaches whose teams just meet expectations. For you to minimize the achievements the team has made to this point is just horse crap.
For the sake of argument let's say you are correct and people are sandbagging expectations as you say. So fricking what. That is what fans do. Maybe you should become one for another team.
Not to be a dick, but it's Coach of the Year, not best coach since December 20th.
MU's early struggles count.
I think MU has exceeded expectations, this season isn't a miracle.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 28, 2013, 09:20:54 AM
Here's your answer:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/BlueSky/blue_sky.html
Now, why don't you provide an answer to my question: How can you be so sure that our wins over Pitt were due to us playing better than expected and not them underperforming.
If MU goes 0-3 against Pitt and Syracuse, all 3 teams would be performing at the level you expected. Conference wins and losses are a zero sum game. If one team is underperforming, another has to be overperforming!!
Simple logic.
I agree early exits count a lot. This season has been surprise for everyone to some degree. Along with that surprise has come hard work and frustration for everyone. How we do next several weeks will determine how much this squad exceeded expectations. Jury is still out here.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on February 28, 2013, 10:09:23 AM
Not to be a dick, but it's Coach of the Year, not best coach since December 20th.
MU's early struggles count.
I think MU has exceeded expectations, this season isn't a miracle.
If you have to preface a statement with, not to be a dick,ass,mean,etc it means you really are one. (just kidding)
Of course the early season struggles matter
that is exactly my point. Before the season started there were a set of expectations, after watching the team for a few games the expectations were adjusted. The team then proceeded to exceed those expectations. That is why buzz is getting coy consideration
Quote from: Goose on February 28, 2013, 10:31:53 AM
I agree early exits count a lot. This season has been surprise for everyone to some degree. Along with that surprise has come hard work and frustration for everyone. How we do next several weeks will determine how much this squad exceeded expectations. Jury is still out here.
I agree the jury is still out. However, contrary to what equalizer thinks, my expectations were below what the team has already achieved
as far as I am concerned we are playing with house money
Hairy
I have never been a house money kindof guy but have to agree with that for this season. Last a few folks posted making S16 was playing with house money and I definitely disagreed with that. This team really surprised me and the win last Monday was extra bonus IMO. Beat ND and pot of house money is much bigger to me.