http://ajerseyguy.com/ (http://ajerseyguy.com/)
Interesting.
I hope Marquette wins that battle. If they are only going with a 10 team league, go with established programs, and Creighton is the right choice. Add SLU and/or Richmond later for their potential.
And you wanna know why those Richmond boards were hating on us... :D
Isn't the Creighton President is on the Marquette Board of Trustees.
Hard to imagine Richmond being the choice as the 10th team.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 21, 2013, 03:32:30 PM
Isn't the Creighton President is on the Marquette Board of Trustees.
Board of Directors yes not trustees.
Just go to 12 teams with SLU as the 12 th team. Fox wants 12 and 12 teams is simply better in terms of NCAA bid potential. Go in swinging....
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 21, 2013, 03:32:30 PM
Isn't the Creighton President is on the Marquette Board of Trustees.
I met Father Pilarz a few weeks ago and asked him about the new conference. He didn't give me any more information than what we have all read here on scoop and elsewhere, but he did mention that he is "very close friends" with the Presidents of Creighton and Xavier. Father Pilarz jokingly said that those two were shameless about wanting in to the new conference and that he had to stop taking their calls (clearly saying this in jest).
So, Father P is a basketball junkie?
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 21, 2013, 03:43:39 PM
Board of Directors yes not trustees.
Says Trustees here: http://www.marquette.edu/about/leadership/trustees.shtml
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 21, 2013, 03:44:49 PM
Just go to 12 teams with SLU as the 12 th team. Fox wants 12 and 12 teams is simply better in terms of NCAA bid potential. Go in swinging....
Agree. Is the non-conference flexibility really more valuable than Fox's premium for 12 teams over 10?
Quote from: T-Bone on February 21, 2013, 03:51:22 PM
Says Trustees here: http://www.marquette.edu/about/leadership/trustees.shtml
Well I'd believe the MU site over the his wikipedia page so trustees it is.
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
debbie downer/bob bummer post of the year.
This should be Creighton in a cake-walk. They were 6th in the Country in average attendance last year and have consistently been in the top 20. The program has a ton of support and would be a great add to the league!
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attendanceYBYtop25.pdf (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attendanceYBYtop25.pdf)
Agreed, hope Marquette wins out! I have to believe it's going to be 12 though. If that's the case, you would think Creighton would be a lock at 12 if they are possibly considered at 10.
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/35213089.jpg)
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
How do Creighton/Richmond change anything? What addition to the C7 would ever change Buzz's mind in this situation?
Oh and also, Barnes isn't going anywhere this year.
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
So true. I hate this conference at 10 as well...Go big and get 12, get Gonzaga, and really knock this out of the park. Enough with this Richmond crap.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 21, 2013, 03:32:30 PM
Isn't the Creighton President is on the Marquette Board of Trustees.
Yes, and Fr. Lannon is also a former MU administrator--he was a VP when I was a student before taking the President's job at St. Joe's for most of the 'aughts (including the year they went undefeated in the regular season). He's one of the best leaders in the Jesuits right now, and at one point I hoped he would end up back at MU after Wild left. I also think he is a decent basketball fan.
There are also a ton of other ties between MU and Creighton, as the only two universities in the Wisconsin Province of the Jesuits. Soon, though, with the Wisconsin and Chicago-Detroit provinces merging, Xavier will also be part of the same province. I'm sure that is where a lot of the push comes from to include Creighton in the new conference--not too mention Creighton's credentials and brings the geographic center of the conference closer to us (as opposed to be being on the western fringe).
Incidentally, SLU is part of the Missouri province and Georgetown is part of the Maryland province, so slightly less connection there.
Quote from: icheights on February 21, 2013, 04:12:50 PM
So true. I hate this conference at 10 as well...Go big and get 12, get Gonzaga, and really knock this out of the park. Enough with this Richmond crap.
I don't like the line-up of 10 either. Lame is it. Go for 12!
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 21, 2013, 03:44:49 PM
Just go to 12 teams with SLU as the 12 th team. Fox wants 12 and 12 teams is simply better in terms of NCAA bid potential. Go in swinging....
Have to quietly hold a spot open for ND ... when (if?) UNC leaves the ACC (for the B1G) that starts the "great ACC implosion." ND can go back to being completely independent in football and the C7 can roll out the welcome wagon for all other ND sports, including basketball.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 21, 2013, 04:22:20 PM
Have to quietly hold a spot open for ND ... when (if?) UNC leaves the ACC (for the B1G) that starts the "great ACC implosion." ND can go back to being completely independent in football and the C7 can roll out the welcome wagon for all other ND sports, including basketball.
This is what I'm hoping happens.
From the link above ...
Although Fox sports, which has tendered a tentative offer of 40 million a year for broadcast rights, which would start as early as the 2014 season–the push to begin next season is losing power and no likely–has indicated it would like to see 12 teams, the initial thinking among the Catholic 7 is to go with 10 schools, which would allow for a double round robbin schedule of 18 conference games.
...
The football branch of the Big East also can now close in on looking to the future as well.
After working on a multi-year package with NBC Sports Network for football and basketball which will pay between $20 and 25 million per year, the Big East on Thursday also had to ponder a matching offer from ESPN, which is the current primary broadcaster holder for football and basketball for the conference.
After taking a week to finalize its strategy, ESPN on Thursday . ESPN "matched' the offer, but whether the criteria of matching includes promotion and programming slots equal to what NBC is offering remains unsettled.
----
C7 basketball is getting more money that Big East football? Can anyone enlighten because if I'm reading this correctly, every BE football school has to be dying to get out ... especially UConn and Concy.
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case. Then eventually we'll all be dead. And billions of years from now, the sun will die out, turning the Earth into a cold, lifeless rock. Eventually, increased entropy will result in the heat death of the universe. WHY BOTHER.
Fixed. Oh, and
WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l8bzeeo8q61qa7oseo1_r1_250.gif)
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on February 21, 2013, 04:19:04 PM
I don't like the line-up of 10 either. Lame is it. Go for 12!
Who are you guys so excited about as #11 and #12? Dayton? SLU? Gonzaga? VCU?
I'm not entirely convinced that the options to go past 10 are worth it, currently. While 'zags would be a great basketball addition, it seems pretty clear they just add too much difficulty in logistics (if the Eastern schools aren't happy about Omaha, they surely won't like SpoCompton). And, while VCU is a good program, I can understand philosophically about wanting to keep it private/smaller schools. Once you knock out those two, I don't think any of the other options are so compelling at this point to make that leap to 12--unless you can make a significant leap in $$$. Otherwise, you risk diluting the basketball product and splitting the pie too many ways.
Now--this isn't to say that SLU or Dayton couldn't be good additions at some point. But, right now, they haven't demonstrated long-term success in the same way the others have. Go slowly with the expansion, and it will give you time to see what rises to the top.
Why hasn't Valpo come up at all? They had a pretty good run with the Drew family coaching.
I don't get the fascination with 12 teams unless it is a mandatory condition to get the deal with Fox. Why would you add more schools just to add schools? The true double round robin is a nice feature. Additionally, it provides you with flexibility as the league establishes itself. Richmond and SLU aren't going anywhere. Keep the 11th and 12th positions open to see what happens with the ACC schools and if the league is a big success perhaps you can lure Gonzaga over for basketball at least.
While the other conferences are going bigger to maximize revenue, I'm not sure Richmond and SLU do that for us in the long run. Wait and see how things roll out.
With the Big Ten probably eventually going to 20 and the power conferences following suit and getting to 16-18, minus well go big and get 14 and be done with it. Xavier, Butler, Creighton, Gonzaga, Dayton, SLU and Richmond + BE7. That would be a top 4 conference every year w/6-7 bids a year.
Quote from: Jet915 on February 21, 2013, 04:50:21 PM
With the Big Ten probably eventually going to 20 and the power conferences following suit and getting to 16-18, minus well go big and get 14 and be done with it. Xavier, Butler, Creighton, Gonzaga, Dayton, SLU and Richmond + BE7. That would be a top 4 conference every year w/6-7 bids a year.
Fixed.
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on February 21, 2013, 04:49:45 PM
I don't get the fascination with 12 teams unless it is a mandatory condition to get the deal with Fox. Why would you add more schools just to add schools? The true double round robin is a nice feature. Additionally, it provides you with flexibility as the league establishes itself. Richmond and SLU aren't going anywhere. Keep the 11th and 12th positions open to see what happens with the ACC schools and if the league is a big success perhaps you can lure Gonzaga over for basketball at least.
+1. Also, as the article stated, if a 10 team league team gives MU more of an opportunity to schedule some high profile made-for-TV non-conference games, I'm all for it.
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
(http://blog.timesunion.com/seeger/files/2009/06/glum-baby.jpg)
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
Wow, your life must suck! ?-(
Quote from: LastWarrior on February 21, 2013, 04:36:51 PM
Why hasn't Valpo come up at all? They had a pretty good run with the Drew family coaching.
I'm guessing Valpo hasn't come up because they don't have a great basketball tradition (aside from a few seasons), they're located in the middle of cornfields, their administration doesn't appear to have a great commitment to athletics, and they wouldn't be likely to make the tournament in the new conference.
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
They'll probably just cancel Marquette's basketball program entirely after this season. What's the point?
In fairness (to us), we did make the Sweet 16 in 2011. I realize we may not be the most exciting choice for some of you, but we are a basketball school and will only get better as a member of this league.
Nothing against Creighton, but they have 1 NCAA win since 2003 and have been to the tourney 4 times since then. We have 2 wins and have been there three times. We also finished 2010 and 2011 ranked in the AP top 25.
I still say just stick with 9 for now. Round robin schedule of 16 games which gives everyone more flexibility for stronger non-conference games.
Round robin format with ten teams is better from a fan standpoint. It creates more intrigue and rivalries. I'd rather be able to schedule a top 20 non-conference game than SLU or Dayton.
Quote from: ShannonSmith on February 21, 2013, 05:49:32 PM
Round robin format with ten teams is better from a fan standpoint. It creates more intrigue and rivalries. I'd rather be able to schedule a top 20 non-conference game than SLU or Dayton.
Going to 12 and adding SLU or Dayton would just substitute conference games, not non-conference. It would still be an 18 game schedule either way. SLU and Dayton will eliminate 2nd games against Georgetown, Villanova, or St. Johns, not a quality non-conference team. The only way to get more flexibility for non-conference games would be to stay at 9 and go with a 16 game schedule. If we add Creighton as a 10th (or Richmond, doesn't matter) we'll substitute 2 games with Creighton instead of 2 quality non-conference games, which we could use for games against ND, Louisville, or Cincy.
Quote from: Eight Legger on February 21, 2013, 05:23:32 PM
In fairness (to us), we did make the Sweet 16 in 2011. I realize we may not be the most exciting choice for some of you, but we are a basketball school and will only get better as a member of this league.
Nothing against Creighton, but they have 1 NCAA win since 2003 and have been to the tourney 4 times since then. We have 2 wins and have been there three times. We also finished 2010 and 2011 ranked in the AP top 25.
Spidey makes a good point.
Quote from: Eight Legger on February 21, 2013, 05:23:32 PM
In fairness (to us), we did make the Sweet 16 in 2011. I realize we may not be the most exciting choice for some of you, but we are a basketball school and will only get better as a member of this league.
Nothing against Creighton, but they have 1 NCAA win since 2003 and have been to the tourney 4 times since then. We have 2 wins and have been there three times. We also finished 2010 and 2011 ranked in the AP top 25.
I understand you guys have to try your best to convince GU that you need to be included. The A10 is the next Horizon League when this is all said and done.
But you have to understand why we look more favorably on Creighton than you guys. They have almost twice as many tournament births than you in their history (6 to 3 since the turn of the century). They are Jesuit. They are located in a Midwestern city very similar in size to Milwaukee and help balance out the geographical footprint of the league from our perspective. They have an extremely supportive fan base.
Its easy to say that you guys will improve if your allowed to tag along, but Creighton likely will as well. My suggestion would be to go out and put together a few tournament runs like Butler did and get in when this league expands.
Quote from: Eight Legger on February 21, 2013, 05:23:32 PM
In fairness (to us), we did make the Sweet 16 in 2011. I realize we may not be the most exciting choice for some of you, but we are a basketball school and will only get better as a member of this league.
Nothing against Creighton, but they have 1 NCAA win since 2003 and have been to the tourney 4 times since then. We have 2 wins and have been there three times. We also finished 2010 and 2011 ranked in the AP top 25.
Not a stronger program still.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 21, 2013, 04:22:20 PM
Have to quietly hold a spot open for ND ... when (if?) UNC leaves the ACC (for the B1G) that starts the "great ACC implosion." ND can go back to being completely independent in football and the C7 can roll out the welcome wagon for all other ND sports, including basketball.
If that happens, you don't have to hold anything you just add them. If that get us to 11, or 13 or whatever other prime number, doesn't matter, you just make it happen. I don't think it happens, even if UNC leaves. I suspect they stay in the ACC or join the Big Ten
Quote from: LastWarrior on February 21, 2013, 04:36:51 PM
Why hasn't Valpo come up at all? They had a pretty good run with the Drew family coaching.
Lots of reasons. 8 years since the NCAA tournament. 5,500 seat arena. Small market. Horizon League team that nobody really cares about.
I'm with the crowd that says keep it at 10. If going to 12 means adding SLU and Dayton, no way no how do i want the conference at 12. I don't want SLU or Dayton to be anywhere near this conference...ever. They scream "mid major" and then some. The bottom half of the C7 will be weak enough, without adding two other weaklings to the mix, that's why IMO you need to add strength to the TOP of the conference if at all possible. Gonzaga is the obvious choice. Too bad the Presidents seemed to have pooh pooh'd their inclusion.
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at seasaon's end. Buzz is going to have a decsision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
wow... I cannot believe what I just read.
The benefits of this new conference and the addition of teams like Creighton is a fantastic. Marquette and the little Jesuit schools get to call their own shots and make a league that is solid and stable. I cannot believe you would disagree.
Quote from: Eight Legger on February 21, 2013, 05:23:32 PM
In fairness (to us), we did make the Sweet 16 in 2011. I realize we may not be the most exciting choice for some of you, but we are a basketball school and will only get better as a member of this league.
Nothing against Creighton, but they have 1 NCAA win since 2003 and have been to the tourney 4 times since then. We have 2 wins and have been there three times. We also finished 2010 and 2011 ranked in the AP top 25.
In terms of the strength of the basketball programs, you might be right--Richmond might be close to equal footing with Creighton. Although, I do note that the time period that you used to compare cuts short a series of NCAA tourney appearances by Creighton while Richmond was sitting at home. Still, considering, I would not consider either team to be considerably better than the other.
It's MU's other connections to Creighton, not the least of which is closer geographical proximity, that make it more appealing for us. With MU, DePaul, Xavier, and Butler, and Gtown, Nova, Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall, Creighton would balance the league out between East Coast and Midwest. Not to mention plenty of other connections between MU, Creighton, and Xavier.
That said--part of me thinks that Richmond would be attractive as another non-Catholic private school to pair with Butler--I personally don't like the idea of being so heavily "Catholic" and think it is good to have more than one "non-Catholic" school in the fold (partially because I don't want Butler to feel like an outsider, and for broader marketing appeal). But, if choosing between the two, I think Creighton still makes more sense, from MU's perspective.
One other piece--what are Richmond's other sports like? I know Creighton is competitive in some of the other sports--how does Richmond compare?
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on February 21, 2013, 06:24:34 PM
wow... I cannot believe what I just read.
The benefits of this new conference and the addition of teams like Creighton is a fantastic opportunity. Marquette and the little Jesuit schools get to call their own shots and make a league that is solid and stable. I cannot believe you would disagree.
whoops.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2013, 06:15:19 PM
If that happens, you don't have to hold anything you just add them. If that get us to 11, or 13 or whatever other prime number, doesn't matter, you just make it happen. I don't think it happens, even if UNC leaves. I suspect they stay in the ACC or join the Big Ten
I also think that ND should basically have a spot waiting for them if/whenever they want it. As much as I am not a fan of ND they would fit perfectly into the new conference style and would be one of the biggest draws to the conference. Let them have their independent football.
I'm also not opposed to taking Richmond. Bring them and their ~1.8 billion endowment along.
Quote from: Stronghold on February 21, 2013, 06:30:07 PM
I'm also not opposed to taking Richmond. Bring them and their ~1.8 billion endowment along.
Not sure how their endowment really matters if they aren't spending that money on basketball.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2013, 06:15:19 PM
If that happens, you don't have to hold anything you just add them. If that get us to 11, or 13 or whatever other prime number, doesn't matter, you just make it happen. I don't think it happens, even if UNC leaves. I suspect they stay in the ACC or join the Big Ten
I'm assuming if UNC leaves, this opens the floodgates and other top ACC football teams leave. Yes they get replaced with Uconn and/or Cincy but at that point the ACC becomes second rate football conference (essentially the BE v 2.0 plus WF, BC, Duke NC State, etc.). Under this scenario ND sees its commitment to play 5 ACC teams a year as a bad thing as it weakens their SoS and reduces their chances of making the new 4 team playoff. I'm also assuming the B1G does not relent and will only take ND if they become a full football member (which the B1G will do in a heartbeat). Maybe ND would have considered this before, but now that they were in the national championship game and have a tremendous recruiting class coming in, no way now.
So, an imploded ACC means ND's best option is to go back to full independent football and the C7 (renamed the C8).
I think geography is at play here also. I don't think the eastern schools want to make that many trips west. We are the misfit on the map being the furthest west.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 21, 2013, 07:05:38 PM
I'm assuming if UNC leaves, this opens the floodgates and other top ACC football teams leave. Yes they get replaced with Uconn and/or Cincy but at that point the ACC becomes second rate football conference (essentially the BE v 2.0 plus WF, BC, Duke NC State, etc.). Under this scenario ND sees it commitment to play 5 ACC teams a year as a bad thing as it weakens their SoS and reduces their changes of making the new 4 team playoff. I'm also assuming the B1G does not relent and will only take ND if thy become a full football member. Maybe ND would have considered this before, but now that they were in the national championship game and have a tremendous recruiting class coming in, no way now.
So, an imploded ACC means ND best option is to go back to full independent football and the C7 (renamed the C8).
Maybe, but you have to have somewhere to go. If UNC leaves and say Georgia Tech goes with them or Virginia....that doesn't mean Clemson, or BC, or Miami, etc leave. They certainly could....might be a death knell for them. They have a pretty good television contract right now...you could also see the Big 12 schools flocking to the ACC and that kills the Big 12 with Texas ultimately going to the Big Ten, Pac 12 or SEC. Who knows.
As far as the 5 ND schools they play in the ACC, it was my understanding that it really doesn't impact them that much, especially in the short term. They already play these schools or had them scheduled anyway in the future: Pitt (ACC), BC (ACC), Miami (ACC), Wake Forest (ACC) and Syracuse (ACC). They will likely have to drop their game against Purdue down the road or Northwestern. Basically, if this arrangement wasn't announced they were going to have a heavy ACC schedule anyway in the next few years.
call me crazy, but i trust the C7 to get this right. after the C7 decided to split, and hearing how far back they were aligning themselves to ensure sustainability, it made me feel a lot better about their abilities to ensure a solid future for men's basketball. i don't think there are going to be any favors handed out to teams...my guess is Fox Sports has as much of a say as to who is in or out than anyone, and the C7 presidents will get this right.
while i don't believe there will ever be a better basketball conference than the old big east, i'm almost more excited to see mu in a league that just focuses on college hoops than i was when they first got into the BEAST. with a solid tv deal from Fox and a basketball only conference, i believe mu has finally found stability in a conference that will be very attractive to top talent players and coaches that don't want to play second fiddle to their football peers.
Couple thoughts on the article and some posts:
- Not good if it is MU vs. GU and other East Coast schools arguing over Creighton - MU seems outnumbered.
- Creighton just went to the Final Four in men's soccer and has a great soccer tradition. For basketball, last year Creighton averaged 16,667 per game, finishing 6th in the country (MU had 15,183 and was 13), while Richmond averaged 5,660 and was 93rd in attendance. In its history, Creighton has made the NCAAs 17 times while Richmond has been there 9 times.
- Notre Dame needs to align with a conference that has football so their football team can get bids to Bowl games in the years they are not challenging for a national title (which is the majority of years the last decade).
- I'd still take Richmond over Dayton.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 21, 2013, 07:05:38 PM
I'm assuming if UNC leaves, this opens the floodgates and other top ACC football teams leave. Yes they get replaced with Uconn and/or Cincy but at that point the ACC becomes second rate football conference (essentially the BE v 2.0 plus WF, BC, Duke NC State, etc.).
Whoa, whoa, whoa. The ACC isn't already a second rate football conference? Who knew.
Preaching to the choir, I think, but I would hope a 12 team conference is still a possibility in 2014
Quote from: jt92 on February 21, 2013, 03:54:38 PM
It doesn't really matter if it is Creighton or Richmond...both are lame. I can't get pumped up that my AD is going after Creighton, sorry. The whole realignment is so depressing. Looks like that Texas job is going to open at season's end. Buzz is going to have a decision to make..neither Richmond nor Creighton do anything to help MU's case.
Everyone is beating up on poor jt92. Let's just bookmark that post and re-read it on April 15th or so.
The only thing I find appealing with this new conference as far as MU is concerned, is it will give MU more chances to win a conference title every year. I'd expect them to be contenders every year. That being said, I've been spoiled with the Big east and will definitely miss it. :(
http://www.vuhoops.com/2013/2/12/3980486/new-teams-for-the-c7
A Villanova fan's perspective. I disagree with his idea of inviting schools with D1 football. The current state of the Big East shows the hybrid model is flawed. If you want stability, stick with like-minded schools and keep football out. However, he has clearly put some time in contemplating it.
Quote from: MARQCAT on February 21, 2013, 03:47:29 PM
I met Father Pilarz a few weeks ago and asked him about the new conference.
Did Fr Pilarz reply, "Well, according to Chicos Bail Bonds on Scoop..."
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2013, 07:13:47 PM
Maybe, but you have to have somewhere to go. If UNC leaves and say Georgia Tech goes with them or Virginia....that doesn't mean Clemson, or BC, or Miami, etc leave. They certainly could....might be a death knell for them. They have a pretty good television contract right now
The second UNC walks out the door, that contract is dead.
Quote from: tower912 on February 21, 2013, 08:12:54 PM
http://www.vuhoops.com/2013/2/12/3980486/new-teams-for-the-c7
A Villanova fan's perspective. I disagree with his idea of inviting schools with D1 football. The current state of the Big East shows the hybrid model is flawed. If you want stability, stick with like-minded schools and keep football out. However, he has clearly put some time in contemplating it.
Definitely put some effort into this. I want to agree with this guy about Cincy, Uconn, Temple, keeping MSG, etc., but those schools seem to be i
ncreasing their focus on football and any hopes of these schools relegating fball to FCS or the MAC seems to be fading, if it they haven't fully faded already.
Quote from: frozena pizza on February 21, 2013, 03:35:43 PM
Hard to imagine Richmond being the choice as the 10th team.
Their only shot was always a 12 team league.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 21, 2013, 04:22:20 PM
Have to quietly hold a spot open for ND ... when (if?) UNC leaves the ACC (for the B1G) that starts the "great ACC implosion." ND can go back to being completely independent in football and the C7 can roll out the welcome wagon for all other ND sports, including basketball.
Delusional
Let's add a few facts to the Creighton/Richmond discussion.
1) Fr. Lannon is a former senior MU administrator, was almost certainly actively considered by the MU BOT as the replacement to Fr. Wild, and was announced as the Creighton President very shortly after Fr. Pilarz was announced as the new MU President.
2) The lay President for Georgetown works for the Jesuits, not the other way around.
3) Fr. Pilarz is essentially a Georgetown 'lifer'. No doubt he has very close and deep ties that go back decades. I'd suspect that the Georgetown Presidency would have been his 'dream' job but that's just wasn't in the cards at the time. He understands that God (and his superiors) called him to lead Marquette and that barring unforeseen circumstances that'll be his terminal position assuming he's successful.
4) Creighton, Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier are Jesuit universities and fully worthy of participation in the new conference. All involved can clearly understand that Loyola doesn't get invited or that St. Joe's encroaches on Villanova's Philly territory. (Notice I didn't exclude SLU.)
5) Richmond isn't Jesuit.
Quote from: Benny B on February 21, 2013, 08:50:37 PM
The second UNC walks out the door, that contract is dead.
Nope. The contract doesn't die, there are clauses that change it, but it isn't dead.
Quote from: keefe on February 21, 2013, 08:17:33 PM
Did Fr Pilarz reply, "Well, according to Chicos Bail Bonds on Scoop..."
Larry is doing a fine job, despite the rantings here by some posters.
Let's not overplay the Jesuit thing here. All else being equal, its nice extra credit for Creighton. But it shouldn't be a deciding factor.
That being said, I still think Creighton is a better choice than Richmond, Dayton, or SLU.
I still think we need to go hard for Gonzaga at all costs. Make what accomodations to them we can, give them an extra $1 mil per year for travel (divided by 11 other teams that's less than $100,000 per school per year, worth it IMHO considering the fat TV deal we are about to get).
Gonzaga, Butler and Xavier. If we go to 12, Creighton and either Richmond, Dayton or SLU (pick 1).
Quote from: Victor McCormick on February 22, 2013, 08:47:02 AM
Let's not overplay the Jesuit thing here. All else being equal, its nice extra credit for Creighton. But it shouldn't be a deciding factor.
That being said, I still think Creighton is a better choice than Richmond, Dayton, or SLU.
Concur that it is not deciding. But I've yet to see any quantative factor that would point to a Richmond invite prior to a Creighton invite. Jersey guy indicated that an eastern group lead by GTown was pulling for them for reasons not disclosed.
I wonder if some mythical 'midwest travel issue' has surfaced? If so, then the Zags are clearly 'a bridge too far'. One other interesting alternative would be to compromise and invite neither. Dayton or SLU become the compromise 10th team. Short sighted in my mind.
Do we really think being a jesuit university is that big of a deal here when deciding which schools to add?
I would think being jesuit university would be far down the list of important qualifications for addition to the new conference.
Quote from: icheights on February 22, 2013, 09:23:31 AM
Do we really think being a jesuit university is that big of a deal here when deciding which schools to add?
I would think being jesuit university would be far down the list of important qualifications for addition to the new conference.
All I'm saying is that friends stick up for friends. Things like TV contracts, etc. are FAR more important.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 22, 2013, 08:36:30 AM
Nope. The contract doesn't die, there are clauses that change it, but it isn't dead.
If Virginia or Clemson or NC State walks out the door, there are clauses that change the contract, yes. But if UNC walks out the door, the contract gets re-opened completely... in the business world, it's called a "key-person(s)" provision. In this case, it's a "key-member
s" provision.
One key has already been turned, just one more and [insert nuclear missile explosion noise] goes the ACC. The ACC's suit against Maryland isn't about $50M, it's the ACC's fail-deadly response... if that falls, then [insert innumerable nuclear missile launch noises].
Quote from: icheights on February 22, 2013, 09:23:31 AM
Do we really think being a jesuit university is that big of a deal here when deciding which schools to add?
I would think being jesuit university would be far down the list of important qualifications for addition to the new conference.
I think the point is that it is not so much that Creighton is a Jesuit university (there are plenty of other Jesuit universities that are not being considered, even within the geographic region), but the numerous connections between Marquette and Creighton (formed via the Jesuits, and specifically the Wisconsin Province) that are probably resulting in MU's push for their inclusion. In that sense, I'm sure it is a motivating factor for the Marquette contingency, even if it is less relevant for the C7 as a whole.
But, to your point, all of that would be moot if Creighton didn't have a decent basketball/athletics program.
Totally understand why you all would want Creighton over us, and it makes sense. I was just pointing out that we have a strong basketball history in the recent past and more distant past. Everyone knows us as the "giant killers" and the only team to win games as a 12, 13, 14 and 15 seed in the NCAAs. I don't know if that's really relevant to the present-day considerations, though, just as how many times Creighton went to the tourney in the 1960s or 1970s probably isn't that relevant.
As far as other sports, we won the football I-AA national championship in 2008 and built a new on-campus a couple years ago, but we have no thoughts of going FBS at all. Tim Hightower and Paris Lenon are Spider football alumni.
We've had a nice baseball history and were three innings away from a College World Series appearance in the early 2000s. Sean Casey, Brian Jordan and Tim Stauffer are Spider baseball alumni. The baseball program took a hit when we went from the CAA to the A-10 (a worse baseball league).
We made the controversial decision to cut men's soccer and men's track to bump our men's lacrosse team up to D1 starting next year, which some of us now feel may have been a sign of positioning ourselves better for this C7 invite. Our swimming and diving teams win the A-10 pretty much every year, and historically overall we have won or finished in the top-3 of the A-10 cumulative standings for all men's and women's sports.
Quote from: Eight Legger on February 22, 2013, 10:47:33 AM
We made the controversial decision to cut men's soccer and men's track to bump our men's lacrosse team up to D1 starting next year, which some of us now feel may have been a sign of positioning ourselves better for this C7 invite.
You cut men's soccer?!?! IMO, that's probably the 2nd best men's sport of the new conference.
Interesting stuff 8. As I read your post it would seem to me that many decisions made by Richmond would make it less likely to be a C7 fit. No soccer, yes baseball, yes scholly (I think) football. Do you have women's volleyball?
So, what does MU do with their "all in" approach to lacrosse in the new conference?
Quote from: LastWarrior on February 22, 2013, 10:59:16 AM
You cut men's soccer?!?! IMO, that's probably the 2nd best men's sport of the new conference.
Especially when you consider that Georgetown was runner up, Creighton made the Final four, and Marquette, St. John's, Xavier, St. Louis and VCU all made the NCAA men's soccer tournament.
From today's Sports Business Daily....some of this already reported. News of the Big 12 as well.
The group of schools known as the Catholic 7 will "initially focus on a 10 team conference, which would mean invitations to Butler and Xavier of the Atlantic 10," according to sources cited by Mark Blaudschun of AJERSEYGUY.com. An internal "tug of war over the 10th team is being waged with Marquette leading a charge to include Creighton, while Georgetown and the Eastern Catholic schools are focusing on Richmond." The conference "would start as early as" the '14-15 season, as the "push to begin next season is losing power." Fox Sports, which has "tendered a tentative offer" of $40M per year for Catholic 7 broadcast rights, has "indicated it would like to see 12 teams." But the "initial thinking among the Catholic 7 is to go with 10 schools, which would allow" for a double round robin schedule of 18 conference games. Such an arrangement also would "allow each school to include high profile -- and television friendly -- non conference games." Meanwhile, the Catholic 7 may be "closing on a commissioner to guide them through all of these issues." Blaudschun wrote "don't be surprised" if the Catholic 7 school presidents pursue West Coast Conference Commissioner Jamie Zainovich (AJERSEYGUY.com, 2/21). Georgetown President Jack DeGioia acknowledged that the new conference "likely will consist of 12 members though may expand to 10 initially." Sources said that the "three to five new members need not be Catholic schools." The sources added "geographical coherence" is expected. Schools joining the Catholic 7 will "have to agree to surrender their media rights to the conference for a significant number of years -- possibly the life of the league's first TV contract, whether that's five, seven or 10 years" (WASHINGTON POST, 2/22).
BIG GOING SMALL? In Tulsa, John Klein reports the Big 12 is "leaning heavily toward a future with 10 teams." Big 12 Commissioner Bob Bowlsby said, "Ten is the right size for us. We have taken a look at all of the circumstances. We went through the entire process. ... There could be circumstances that change, but 10 is the right position for us. We will be prepared for anything. We won't just wait around and watch. But, we feel confident that 10 is the right number." Bowlsby, before speaking Thursday at the Tulsa Business Forums, "seemed to hint that it would take some major movement for the Big 12 to change its position on size or makeup of the conference" (TULSA WORLD, 2/22).
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 22, 2013, 11:48:57 AM
So, what does MU do with their "all in" approach to lacrosse in the new conference?
This may be one consideration for a team like Richmond--with C7+X/Butler, there are only 5 lacrosse teams--one short of the 6 necessary for an automatic bid league. None of the other top possibilities (Creighton, SLU, Dayton) offer D-1 lacrosse. So, either we'd have to invite affiliate members (keep Rutgers? Michigan?), or find another conference in which to land lacrosse.
Not sure if that should be driving the boat, but who knows how important a consideration it might be to some schools?
What would surrendering media rights to the new conference mean? Is that good or bad for the schools involved?
Quote from: MUMountin on February 22, 2013, 11:59:09 AM
This may be one consideration for a team like Richmond--with C7+X/Butler, there are only 5 lacrosse teams--one short of the 6 necessary for an automatic bid league. None of the other top possibilities (Creighton, SLU, Dayton) offer D-1 lacrosse. So, either we'd have to invite affiliate members (keep Rutgers? Michigan?), or find another conference in which to land lacrosse.
Not sure if that should be driving the boat, but who knows how important a consideration it might be to some schools?
Know which school has lacrosse and was mentioned in the Feinstein and Hunt articles? Detroit.
Quote from: Norm on February 22, 2013, 12:00:21 PM
What would surrendering media rights to the new conference mean? Is that good or bad for the schools involved?
I believe it means the added-on schools (not the original C7) miss out on get the TV revenue of the first contract... Thus more money in the C7 pockets. I'm for this, and obviously C7 should be able to pull this off since we are negotiating from a position of high strength. C7 can offer something great and unique to the added-on schools... longterm financial stability and hoops recognition. The C7 schools also have to deal with much more legal expenses in getting the league setup (as well as likely some exit fees concessions to the Big East), so the bigger piece of the pie will be put to good use.
Correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation.
No, it's for teams that would leave the C7 conference, kind of like an exit fee. For example, it Marquette leaves the new conference to join the Big Teen, we would have to give the C7 conference all our Big Teen TV money for the duration of this hypothetical C7 TV contract.
Quote from: Norm on February 22, 2013, 12:00:21 PM
What would surrendering media rights to the new conference mean? Is that good or bad for the schools involved?
It depends on whether you put more empahsis on free/easy fan access to games across cable/internet or you want the largest possible dollar value on the contract.
"Surrenduring media rights" means Fox does whatever it can to recoup that $500 million (or whatever the number becomes).
That probably results in a loss of free access to league games--including over the internet--as Fox Sports doesn't have the ad-driven revenue model that ESPN has right now. I'm guessing there will probabaly be some limited number of free league games each week, and for the true fans a fee-based "all-access" pass--maybe $100/year or so--to see any games that aren't picked up.
I would also assume that means that we'd give up what we've been getting through Nelligan--radio rights, Buzz's show, game programs and other revenue generating promotions.
Quote from: MUMountin on February 22, 2013, 11:59:09 AM
This may be one consideration for a team like Richmond--with C7+X/Butler, there are only 5 lacrosse teams--one short of the 6 necessary for an automatic bid league. None of the other top possibilities (Creighton, SLU, Dayton) offer D-1 lacrosse. So, either we'd have to invite affiliate members (keep Rutgers? Michigan?), or find another conference in which to land lacrosse.
Not sure if that should be driving the boat, but who knows how important a consideration it might be to some schools?
This is why some of us at UR are thinking that the fact we cut men's soccer (seemingly out of nowhere) in order to add men's lacrosse may have happened at least in part because Georgetown or Villanova nudged us and said, 'Hey, do this and you'll be easier for us to sell to the new league.'
It sounds as if there would already be enough men's soccer teams for an auto bid but one more men's lacrosse team is needed. I have no idea if that's significant enough to warrant our inclusion or not (it wouldn't seem like it on the surface), but it's an interesting thing to consider.
We do still have women's soccer and have had women's lacrosse for years. We do not play volleyball (men or women).
The more I think about it, the more I like 10 teams, at least for the first year or three. You don't even think about divisions, you play a round-robin so that everybody gets a taste of everybody else's arena, you build rivalries a little faster, you make scheduling conference games a snap and you keep more of the pie.
Then, once everybody sees how great the C7+3 is, schools will practically kill for the next 2 spots.
As for who the 10th should be, Creighton seems to make a little more sense than Richmond for the arguments already stated, but I wouldn't jump out my window if Richmond or any of the serious contenders get that spot. Except Detroit. Or Siena. Or Bowdoin ... I think they were mentioned by Feinstein, too, right?
Quote from: Norm on February 22, 2013, 12:00:21 PM
What would surrendering media rights to the new conference mean? Is that good or bad for the schools involved?
It means you let the conference do the negotiations for all television, internet, radio rights so they can bundle them together and get top dollar...they own the rights so they can monetize them and sell them to FOX, ESPN or whomever. Now, it's possible it's only television or television and internet (digital). Not sure.
What often happens is they will do a deal with a ESPN or FOX or whomever where those entities pick up which games they are going to put on their air. The games that aren't picked up (the dogs of the schedule), are often released back to the individual schools where they can cut their own deals, similar to what happened with TimeWarner in Milwaukee or an over the air channel like the old days on channel 18 or 24. We'll have to see what they do on that front.
Quote from: Eight Legger on February 22, 2013, 12:54:52 PM
This is why some of us at UR are thinking that the fact we cut men's soccer (seemingly out of nowhere) in order to add men's lacrosse may have happened at least in part because Georgetown or Villanova nudged us and said, 'Hey, do this and you'll be easier for us to sell to the new league.'
It sounds as if there would already be enough men's soccer teams for an auto bid but one more men's lacrosse team is needed. I have no idea if that's significant enough to warrant our inclusion or not (it wouldn't seem like it on the surface), but it's an interesting thing to consider.
We do still have women's soccer and have had women's lacrosse for years. We do not play volleyball (men or women).
Looks like its time to start women's volleyball and restart men's soccer. It's amazing how many schools anymore don't even do some basic male sports (i.e. Soccer, wrestling, track even for some). The Big 12 doesn't even play men's soccer.
Gotta disagree. Your basic male sports, including snatch, clean, and jerk are alive and well in the Big 12.
As much fun as it is to conversate (as MJ would say) about lacrosse and soccer, I'm guessing that such sports are approximately 0.5% of the focus when putting this conference together.
And that's being generous.
Quote from: MU82 on February 22, 2013, 02:52:17 PM
As much fun as it is to conversate (as MJ would say) about lacrosse and soccer, I'm guessing that such sports are approximately 0.5% of the focus when putting this conference together.
And that's being generous.
Maybe. Maybe not.
In the larger conference realignment scheme, where football is the predominant focus, and basketball maybe gets a tiny nod, I'd agree with you.
But, personally, I think that what the C7 are doing is a little different--a little more holistic. ("As for the essential criteria of the schools that will be added, DeGioia, a member of the reform-minded Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics, cites three: Schools that put the student-athletes' interests first, both in the classroom and on the playing fields; school whose athletic departments are conducted with integrity; and schools that play exceptional basketball.) Sounds to me like they are looking more than just who has the best basketball program (if that were the case, then I think you probably invite Gonzaga or VCU, and be done with it).
In some ways, the C-7 has the luxury of doing so, as the level of the basketball programs at the potential targets (after X and Butler) are all relatively similar. So, they can have a bigger conversation about how well the school fits in geographically, athletically (in terms of other sports), philosophically.
Agree with your notion completely mountain. Once we get past X and BU (and let's admit it.... that's the worst kept secret out there), then many factors well beyond someone's current AP basketball ranking are being considered. I think there's a 'threshold' hurdle for Men's hoops and I believe all on the short list are already there.
One thing that I think hasn't been discussed much is an 'until death do us part' mentality. None of the C7 want to go through this again. Maybe that's why we start with 10 and let 11-12 say please, please for 2 years.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 22, 2013, 02:10:19 PM
Gotta disagree. Your basic male sports, including snatch, clean, and jerk are alive and well in the Big 12.
usually, if you have the snatch figured out then you can forego the jerk
Quote from: keefe on February 22, 2013, 05:05:14 PM
usually, if you have the snatch figured out then you can forego the jerk
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Quote from: MU82 on February 22, 2013, 01:13:47 PM
Or Bowdoin ... I think they were mentioned by Feinstein, too, right?
Forget Xavier and Butler, Bowdoin will bring Bates and Colby to make ten. Bates, Bowdoin, and Colby the "Little Ivy's";D
Quote from: Norm on February 22, 2013, 12:02:21 PM
Know which school has lacrosse and was mentioned in the Feinstein and Hunt articles? Detroit.
Detroit Mercy Basketball
(http://www.stadiumsusa.com/images/thumbs/9b536b6885e843982c2a7ec59822408f79c0f558.jpg-590x1000.png)
Playing before a "Packed House" in their Expansive Facility...
Quote from: RealChiliWarrior on February 22, 2013, 06:53:31 PM
Forget Xavier and Butler, Bowdoin will bring Bates and Colby to make ten. Bates, Bowdoin, and Colby the "Little Ivy's";D
My oldest played LAX at Middlebury. The NESCAC is great sports. It must have been how intercollegiate athletics was 80 years ago. These schools really embrace their heritage
(http://www.westnet.com/~sidelir/lacrosse/Kohn/peter@bowdoin2006.jpg)
keefe is that you standing between #11 and #2? Gotta keep those dentures in man, and your mouth won't look collapsed in.
I'll take watching an Ivy league or similar type of league football game over any but the biggest of top tier football games. A lot of these smaller leagues understand the value of sports in college and have players that play sports for the sport of it. It is the heritage and history that makes these players give 100% and has the alumni tension to give it the extra tension that is needed.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 22, 2013, 07:37:46 PM
keefe is that you standing between #11 and #2? Gotta keep those dentures in man, and your mouth won't look collapsed in.
That was from the Annual Lacrosse Graybeards Alumni match that Middlebury and Bowdoin play every year. The Middlebury "Honorary Coach" was class of '32 so he was appox 90 years old. Guy probably gums it these days. From the Grandmasters Match Program:
The lacrosse traditions at Middlebury and Bowdoin are grounded deeply in the athletic cultures of both colleges. Over time, the New England Small
College Athletic Conference began to allow NCAA post season play, and NESCAC teams began to qualify and compete for the national
championship. Year after year, Middlebury and Bowdoin teams continue to play at the highest level, and the programs are among the most well
established and respected in the country.
Long after graduation, the Bowdoin and Middlebury players continue to cross paths on the lacrosse field. The teams play once again to write another chapter in the history of this long storied New England rivalry.
Enjoy your ivy league as everyone else will watch alabama-a&m.
Quote from: GOO on February 22, 2013, 07:45:16 PM
I'll take watching an Ivy league or similar type of league football game over any but the biggest of top tier football games. A lot of these smaller leagues understand the value of sports in college and have players that play sports for the sport of it. It is the heritage and history that makes these players give 100% and has the alumni tension to give it the extra tension that is needed.
I'll take it too. Something refreshing about watching a football game these days where over half the players on the field can read above a third grade level.
Quote from: chapman on February 22, 2013, 11:52:56 PM
I'll take it too. Something refreshing about watching a football game these days where over half the players on the field can read above a third grade level.
[/quote
Larry Williams kids all play Ivy football. His son will be starting QB for Yale next season.
And here's SLU fans getting their bitchiness towards Marquette in. Jeez.
http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23676&page=3
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 23, 2013, 01:47:41 PM
And here's SLU fans getting their bitchiness towards Marquette in. Jeez.
http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23676&page=3
They've had a complex since MU got the BE invite.
How many years in a row has MU been in the ncaa tourney, St. Louis fans?