After last year, who would ever think he would have a game like that against Pittsburgh. i think the game is coming to him now, did not force a shot, was 7-8 from distance.
If he plays like that with Jamil Wilson playing better, you would hope they get to the sweet 16 again, any thoughts? Secondly, he might become an NBA player in the future,
one more good year at MU, who knows?
Let's not forget that Vander contemplated going pro after an abysmal freshman year. I have wondered all year about what will happen at the end of this year where he has been quite good. It will be interesting to see if Vander tries to declare after this year...I hope it doesn't happen but who knows.
Vander, if you come back, you will be on the short-list for BE POY. See Crowder, Jae. Would he have been better off skipping his last year?
Quote from: Clam Crowder on February 18, 2013, 11:47:17 AM
Let's not forget that Vander contemplated going pro after an abysmal freshman year. I have wondered all year about what will happen at the end of this year where he has been quite good. It will be interesting to see if Vander tries to declare after this year...I hope it doesn't happen but who knows.
I think that may have been because he had so many accolades out of HS I think Buzz may have humbled him as shown by him saying Jamil is the best player on our team
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 11:51:43 AM
Vander, if you come back, you will be on the short-list for BE POY. See Crowder, Jae. Would he have been better off skipping his last year?
I think hed be on the national POY list
Quote from: Clam Crowder on February 18, 2013, 11:47:17 AM
Let's not forget that Vander contemplated going pro after an abysmal freshman year. I have wondered all year about what will happen at the end of this year where he has been quite good. It will be interesting to see if Vander tries to declare after this year...I hope it doesn't happen but who knows.
If Van has a big NCAA Tournament and leads* MU to the Elite 8 or even the Final Four, he'd be silly not to go. Strike while your stock is high.
* - "leads" as in, he has monster games
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 11:51:43 AM
Vander, if you come back, you will be on the short-list for BE POY. See Crowder, Jae. Would he have been better off skipping his last year?
Vander's junior year has been considerably better than Jae's junior year.
Going into Jae's senior year, we only hoped he'd be able to replace Jimmy. He averaged under 12 points as a junior, and there were few if any who thought he was going to be in the BE PoY conversation.
Vander is unquestionably the best player on a team tied for the Big East lead and is getting a good amount of national attention.
I hope Vander doesn't go. I think it would benefit him to stay one more year; he'll get to play some PG next season and his 3PT pct still has much room for improvement. But if he keeps having one good game after another -- with a few great games thrown in to offset the occasional clunker -- it might be hard for him to resist at least checking out what NBA types think about him and then acting accordingly.
Just six weeks ago, any talk of Vander possibly going pro made me laugh out loud because he simply did not display enough skills consistently enough to merit such talk. I still think he's a long shot due to his size, his lack of PG skills and his sub-30% 3PT shooting.
Nevertheless, his outstanding showing during conference play makes such talk far more realistic now.
He's had a solid year, though and up and down past 7 days. His performance 2 days ago vs his performance 7 days ago were definitely a contrast.
At Georgetown, 7 points, 3 of 10 shooting, 0 for 5 from beyond the arc, 1 for 3 from stripe, 1 asst, 2 TO's
Needs another year. If he wants to declare, declare but don't sign an agent.
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2013, 12:10:09 PM
Vander's junior year has been considerably better than Jae's junior year.
I don't know about that. They do different things. Jae's junior year he averaged nearly 7 boards a game, 12 points, shot 49% from the field and 36% from 3 point range. Also had 1.6 assts per game, 1.3 steals and 1 block per game with less than 1 turnover per game.
Vander this year has 3.3 rebounds per game, about 15 points avg, shooting about 47% but less than 31% from beyond the arc. Same assts per game as Jae but more turnovers at 2.1 per game, less than 1 steal per game and zero blocks per game.
I wouldn't say considerably better.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 12:19:55 PM
I don't know about that. They do different things. Jae's junior year he averaged nearly 7 boards a game, 12 points, shot 49% from the field and 36% from 3 point range. Also had 1.6 assts per game, 1.3 steals and 1 block per game with less than 1 turnover per game.
Vander this year has 3.3 rebounds per game, about 15 points avg, shooting about 47% but less than 31% from beyond the arc. Same assts per game as Jae but more turnovers at 2.1 per game, less than 1 steal per game and zero blocks per game.
I wouldn't say considerably better.
OK, Chicos. I can live without the "considerably." Vander has scored better and, IMHO, he has been more important to his team.
You would also need to divide Jae's junior season into two haves. I believe his statistics the first half as he was learning to adjust to basketball at this level were significantly lower than his second half statistics.
Quote from: bilsu on February 18, 2013, 12:25:56 PM
You would also need to divide Jae's junior season into two haves. I believe his statistics the first half as he was learning to adjust to basketball at this level were significantly lower than his second half statistics.
Plus Jae played alongside Butler, which means he's going to have split rebounds, points, etc. Vander doesn't have anyone playing the same level with him so he has more opportunities. Blue is playing 32.7 minutes per game to Jae's 27.6...you can get a lot done in 5 extra minutes.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 12:19:55 PM
I don't know about that. They do different things. Jae's junior year he averaged nearly 7 boards a game, 12 points, shot 49% from the field and 36% from 3 point range. Also had 1.6 assts per game, 1.3 steals and 1 block per game with less than 1 turnover per game.
Vander this year has 3.3 rebounds per game, about 15 points avg, shooting about 47% but less than 31% from beyond the arc. Same assts per game as Jae but more turnovers at 2.1 per game, less than 1 steal per game and zero blocks per game.
I wouldn't say considerably better.
Jae was the third best player on a 22-15, 9-9, Sweet Sixteen team his junior year. Vander is the best player on what currently is an 18-6 and 9-3 team. I'd say right now it's advantage Blue.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 18, 2013, 12:34:47 PM
Jae was the third best player on a 22-15, 9-9, Sweet Sixteen team his junior year. Vander is the best player on what currently is an 18-6 and 9-3 team. I'd say right now it's advantage Blue.
If Blue (the Junior version) was on that team a few years ago, he would also be the third best player on that team. This is why looking at one season vs the other and not taking everything into consideration (schedule, players, etc) is silly.
Or, let's say this year's team doesn't make the Sweet 16 and since that team did, does that mean negative argument for Vander? Or is it that each year is unique, each tournament unique, etc?
My thinking is that he needs another year to play more consistently game in and game out. If MU does go deep into the tourney, plays like he did against Pitt, there might be some
talk about leaving early. Lets see how he plays tomorrow night, against a bad team like the Hall (majority of there good players are hurt) he should have a good game. They will be
playing zone, needs to keep hitting outside shots. Like to see him add 20 lbs to his frame.
Regarding VB's 3pt shooting %, I do think you need to factor in how many terrible last second of 35 second clock shots he has been forced into. It seems like every game he is forced into a horrible shot because shot clock is near zero. To me the best part of him this year is his patience. I think there have been times when he could drive and score at will and instead plays within the system. The dunk he had against Georgetown to me was sign of maturity. He had wide open 18 footer and drove to hoop instead. Very heady play IMO.
In addition, IMO VB aside from being MVP on team he really is the only go to guy on team. Hard to compare him other guys because of supporting cast.
If Vander could play point in the Association he would be a first rounder, but unfortunately, he isnt playing PG for MU.
He will PG in the NBA. He is not a number two and plays one because Jr. is Buzz's guy.
Next year if the freshman do not pan out, Vander can play the point and Mayo the 2, add Wilson, McKay and Otule and you have NBA length.
Quote from: BCHoopster on February 18, 2013, 11:38:30 AM
After last year, who would ever think he would have a game like that against Pittsburgh. i think the game is coming to him now, did not force a shot, was 7-8 from distance.
To be fair, he was 2-2 from 'distance' and 7-8 from the field.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 12:39:38 PM
To me the best part of him this year is his patience. I think there have been times when he could drive and score at will and instead plays within the system.
If there is ANYTIME that VB can drive and score at will..........well then that is exactly what he should be doing.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 12:37:28 PM
If Blue (the Junior version) was on that team a few years ago, he would also be the third best player on that team. This is why looking at one season vs the other and not taking everything into consideration (schedule, players, etc) is silly.
Or, let's say this year's team doesn't make the Sweet 16 and since that team did, does that mean negative argument for Vander? Or is it that each year is unique, each tournament unique, etc?
This season is a long way from being over. A lot could change, but as of now Vander is better than DJO or Jae showed their junior years. He's the #1 option on the team, not the second or third. Teams game plan to stop him. And that team (so far) looks better than the 2010-11 team. Let's see how it plays out.
As I stated VB plays within the system. If they isolated him like the NBA guys he would score a bunch more. He can to his right or left and few can guard him one on one. I give him credit for showing maturity. He scores his points without a lot of touches. By touches I mean not 30 feet from basket playing catch with Jr.
I would think he would test the waters and see if he is draftable. I think he would benefit ($-wise) if he played another year and was able to demonstrate some better skills at the point, better 3-ball, and better overall consistency.
Here are my two cents in this conversation.
IF Blue wants to go pro, he should do this after his junior year. The draft class of this year is the worst in decades; it's absolutely atrocious. He might sneak in as a middle 2nd rounder or later or something.
His senior year draft class is STACKED beyond belief. Wiggins, Harrison twins, that whole Kentucky team in general, maybe Jabari Parker. If he wants to play in the Association, he should declare after this year.
With that said, I do not think he will declare. He will come back for his senior year and win the national championship ;D
His skills need a lot of work and we'll see how he plays in this final part of the season and the NCAA's. I think how he plays in March is key for his decision.
If 13lue goes, I hope it's a hyperinformed decision.
We can pull out the Chones story and try to apply it to today's world, but it doesn't work. There were two "premier" leagues at the time: NBA and ABA. Now it's just the NBA and at a distant 1,000,000th, the NBADL.
If he's not drafted, he's going to Europe where the money is. But without the guaranteed contracts the NBA offers, it's a riskier proposition.
At worse, he's playing in the NBADL wondering what a senior campaign would have looked like.
Quote from: Knight Commission on February 18, 2013, 12:45:47 PM
If Vander could play point in the Association he would be a first rounder, but unfortunately, he isnt playing PG for MU.
This is Argument No. 1 for him returning. He could play a good amount of point next season and prove himself there.
Unless he becomes a considerably better 3PT shooter, he has little chance to be an NBA 2-guard.
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on February 18, 2013, 01:46:18 PM
IF Blue wants to go pro, he should do this after his junior year. The draft class of this year is the worst in decades; it's absolutely atrocious. He might sneak in as a middle 2nd rounder or later or something.
If VB goes in the middle of the 2nd round or later (not sure what or something means) he got bad advice and should have stayed and improved his draft status.
Especially considering that this draft is weak.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 18, 2013, 02:49:29 PM
If VB goes in the middle of the 2nd round or later (not sure what or something means) he got bad advice and should have stayed and improved his draft status.
Especially considering that this draft is weak.
Exactly. If I knew I was going to be a first-round pick -- better yet, a lottery pick -- and was going to get the guaranteed bucks, I'd strongly consider leaving school. If I was pretty sure that wasn't going to be the case, I'd return and work like hell all offseason to turn myself into a first-rounder.
There are many who think getting drafted in the second round is worse than not getting drafted. You don't get guaranteed money but your rights are still owned by a team; better to be a free agent who can make his own deal.
NBA teams draft after first 10 picks on potential. Heard Jay Bilas talking about the Kentucky guys and all will be drafted because upside potential and not immediate impact. I think VB falls 100% in that group. VB is a completely different type of athlete than Jae, DJO or Butler and that is where his upside comes in. From what I have heard VB has been playing as if last season at MU. Things can change but I think he does more than test the waters.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 18, 2013, 12:34:47 PM
Jae was the third best player on a 22-15, 9-9, Sweet Sixteen team his junior year.
Doesn't this just prove that the 2010-11 Big East was the best conference of all time? We finished in 11th place, with at least three, maybe four, future NBA draft picks playing significant minutes. There were TEN teams "better" than us that season. Wow.
(Of course, the conference laid an egg in the tournament, with everyone but MU and UConn crapping out in the first two rounds)
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2014/
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2013/
Draft Express is pretty good at picking the potential candidates for the draft.
Vander not listed on 2013 or 2014 draft potential.
I think he stays for his senior year.
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2013, 02:54:22 PM
There are many who think getting drafted in the second round is worse than not getting drafted. You don't get guaranteed money but your rights are still owned by a team; better to be a free agent who can make his own deal.
Kind of like Wesley Matthews' situation. Undrafted and signed 1 year deal with the Jazz. Able to sign completely new contract immediately year after. Not sure what everyone out of his class is making now or who has new contracts, but Wes' first year in the NBA, his new contract with Portland (at the time) made him the richest player out of that year's class.
Quote from: ODMU238 on February 18, 2013, 03:01:44 PM
Doesn't this just prove that the 2010-11 Big East was the best conference of all time? We finished in 11th place, with at least three, maybe four, future NBA draft picks playing significant minutes. There were TEN teams "better" than us that season. Wow.
(Of course, the conference laid an egg in the tournament, with everyone but MU and UConn crapping out in the first two rounds)
That was partly be design. MU played Syracuse in the 2nd round and Cincy played UConn. The Selection Committee didn't want the potential of BE teams dominating the later rounds.
Quote from: WarriorInDC on February 18, 2013, 03:17:17 PM
Kind of like Wesley Matthews' situation. Undrafted and signed 1 year deal with the Jazz. Able to sign completely new contract immediately year after. Not sure what everyone out of his class is making now or who has new contracts, but Wes' first year in the NBA, his new contract with Portland (at the time) made him the richest player out of that year's class.
This. But think about how many lucky SOBs this happens to each season, much less each decade?
The odds are not great.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on February 18, 2013, 03:35:05 PM
This. But think about how many lucky SOBs this happens to each season, much less each decade?
The odds are not great.
Exactly, the theory behind this is that you can pick your situation, thereby giving yourself an extra percentage point or two of making the team. Let's not pretend by any stretch that Wesley's situation is anything near the norm.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 18, 2013, 01:04:38 PM
This season is a long way from being over. A lot could change, but as of now Vander is better than DJO or Jae showed their junior years. He's the #1 option on the team, not the second or third. Teams game plan to stop him. And that team (so far) looks better than the 2010-11 team. Let's see how it plays out.
We agree to disagree. If you put the junior versions of DJO or Jae on this year's team, they are both better than Vander this year. In my opinion. I agree, let's see how it plays out.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 02:59:21 PM
NBA teams draft after first 10 picks on potential. Heard Jay Bilas talking about the Kentucky guys and all will be drafted because upside potential and not immediate impact. I think VB falls 100% in that group. VB is a completely different type of athlete than Jae, DJO or Butler and that is where his upside comes in. From what I have heard VB has been playing as if last season at MU. Things can change but I think he does more than test the waters.
What exactly does this mean? How would he play differently if he was not not leaving? And why do you have to heard it second hand. We can't we all see it?
Chico's
I'm with Lenny 100% on this one. No comparison between VB's Jr. year and DJO or Jae. Truthfully I think it took many on here until midseason last year for them to believe Jae was for real. Many folks were higher on DJO after Jr. season than Jae if memory serves me. If VB is back next year the national expectations will be there. IMO his JR. year blows them away.
Another MU84
I heard VB had his mind made up a year ago he was going pro after this season. I think he is playing similar to what a free agent does in contract year, which is deliver the goods for a contract.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 03:47:59 PM
Chico's
I'm with Lenny 100% on this one. No comparison between VB's Jr. year and DJO or Jae. Truthfully I think it took many on here until midseason last year for them to believe Jae was for real. Many folks were higher on DJO after Jr. season than Jae if memory serves me. If VB is back next year the national expectations will be there. IMO his JR. year blows them away.
Another MU84
I heard VB had his mind made up a year ago he was going pro after this season. I think he is playing similar to what a free agent does in contract year, which is deliver the goods for a contract.
So he's taking PEDs?
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 03:47:59 PM
Another MU84
I heard VB had his mind made up a year ago he was going pro after this season. I think he is playing similar to what a free agent does in contract year, which is deliver the goods for a contract.
This makes even less sense. He would play "less hard" if he was coming back? Why?
And as far as him making up his mind a year ago to go pro ... I also made up my mind to go pro year ago too. That does not mean I will.
A few posts above is the draft express for 2013 and 2014. He is not on either list. Unless he wants to go pro in Europe (maybe with Otule :) ) or the NBADL, he better start getting noticed.
The phrase "from what I have heard" always elicits a raised eyebrow from this observer.
From what a lot of people had heard, Buzz was going to SMU last year.
From what a lot of people had heard, JJJ wasn't going to sign early with MU.
From what a lot of people had heard, Big East was going to merge with the A-10.
From what a lot of people had heard, Romney wasn't merely going to win but was going to win in a landslide.
Nothing personal, Goose. Maybe Vander really already has decided to go pro. But forgive me for not believing it (or anything else about any other subject) until the source is a little more credible than "from what I have heard."
Isnt it better to develop in the d-league anyways? There are just as many scouts that watch those games as there are that watch the college games... Plus, no classes, no homework, no ncaa restrictions on practice time with coaches...better competition in practice and games...
Nothing but basketball all day, every day.
Interesting that you guys are debating Vander vs. DJO's junior year. According to KenPom, the most similar statistical player to Blue's junior year in recent college basketball history is drumroll please..... DJO's junior season. DJO's ORTG = 106.8, Blue's currently = 106.1. And to bring it all back around to missed recruiting opportunities, the third most similar is Michael Snaer's junior year.
Another MU84
You win. Got me twice today on the ex pats tax issue and VB going pro.
Quote from: honkytonk on February 18, 2013, 04:02:10 PM
Isnt it better to develop in the d-league anyways? There are just as many scouts that watch those games as there are that watch the college games... Plus, no classes, no homework, no ncaa restrictions on practice time with coaches...better competition in practice and games...
Nothing but basketball all day, every day.
So why does Kentucky get even one recruit? Why don't the top dozen or so one-and-done players go directly to the NBADL? How come it almost never happens?
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 03:47:59 PM
Chico's
I'm with Lenny 100% on this one. No comparison between VB's Jr. year and DJO or Jae. Truthfully I think it took many on here until midseason last year for them to believe Jae was for real. Many folks were higher on DJO after Jr. season than Jae if memory serves me. If VB is back next year the national expectations will be there. IMO his JR. year blows them away.
Another MU84
I heard VB had his mind made up a year ago he was going pro after this season. I think he is playing similar to what a free agent does in contract year, which is deliver the goods for a contract.
Well, we will agree to disagree? Statistically I think it's a wash if not benefit to Jae and DJO. Tougher league back then, but they still had slightly better stats and had better players on the team they had to share the ball with. It's tough to break through when you have DJO and Butler also on the team, but he did. When you say "no comparison" that makes me scratch my head. If you look statistically, not only is there a comparison but one can easily argue VB loses that argument...so I don't get where "no comparison" comes from, ESPECIALLY when you look at how much better the Big East was that season and what VB's role is on this team vs those guys roles on that team.
Going into his senior season, Crowder and DJO were both preseason All Big East picks so I don't think I would agree that people didn't think they were for real until midseason. People knew they were pretty good before the season even started. Blue will be a preseason all Big East player going into his senior season as well, if he sticks around.
If Blue leaves, he leaves. I wish him the best. Hopefully he makes it. To me, he is undersized, hasn't proven he can play the point, has a very inconsistent outside shot. Another year would do him well.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 04:06:51 PM
If Blue leaves, he leaves. I wish him the best. Hopefully he makes it. To me, he is undersized, hasn't proven he can play the point, has a very inconsistent outside shot. Another year would do him well.
+1
If Blue comes back next year and plays the point, and is effective, then he's getting paid at the next level.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 04:06:09 PM
So why does Kentucky get even one recruit? Why don't the top dozen or so one-and-done players go directly to the NBADL? How come it almost never happens?
Who's to say it wont happen in the future? Right now, I think some of it has to do with players eying their marketability in the future. Being one and done in college prob helps more in that regard than being one and done in the d-league.
Blue isnt signing endorsement deals anytime soon.
Quote from: honkytonk on February 18, 2013, 04:02:10 PM
Isnt it better to develop in the d-league anyways? There are just as many scouts that watch those games as there are that watch the college games... Plus, no classes, no homework, no ncaa restrictions on practice time with coaches...better competition in practice and games...
Nothing but basketball all day, every day.
I agree, that sounds pretty logical.... But, how many guys have had success in making the jump? And, by success, I'm talking about receiving a multi-year guarantee contract. Similar to what a 1st round pick would get.
I mean, for an underclassman who is currently not 1st round material, what's a better option to make the league and get that guarantee contract.
Stay in school and hope to increase your draft stock. Or, declare (maybe get drafted) and develop in the D-league. Right now, I think the better option is to stay in school.
That's one of the major issues with the D-league. It's not a true minor-league system yet.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 12:29:24 PM
Plus Jae played alongside Butler, which means he's going to have split rebounds, points, etc. Vander doesn't have anyone playing the same level with him so he has more opportunities. Blue is playing 32.7 minutes per game to Jae's 27.6...you can get a lot done in 5 extra minutes.
That's a bit obtuse. I wouldn't say considerably better but I would argue better. A separate question is Who is more valuable to the team and that is when you can factor in Butler. To that I would say VB is far more valuable to his team.
Scenario.
MU makes the Elite 8 this year, but Van declares and is drafted.
Do you take it, or want him to return next year? (Erasing the Elite 8 run)
For me this is tough, i think we have a higher ceiling next year if he returns with De'De'.... I'm saying stay.
Quote from: Jajuannaman on February 18, 2013, 04:04:25 PM
Interesting that you guys are debating Vander vs. DJO's junior year. According to KenPom, the most similar statistical player to Blue's junior year in recent college basketball history is drumroll please..... DJO's junior season. DJO's ORTG = 106.8, Blue's currently = 106.1. And to bring it all back around to missed recruiting opportunities, the third most similar is Michael Snaer's junior year.
Yup, and DJO according to KenPom was BETTER his junior year than Vander. DJO, currently, not playing in the association either. Undersized, inconsistent shot, etc. Yes, it sounds all too familiar. It took a great DJO senior season to get drafted and get his cup of coffee. Vander, if he doesn't play next year, won't have that Senior season to make that impression. Hard to see him getting drafted based on this year's performance...a good season, not a great season and plenty of players with a safer pedigree to pick than him. That's the point I think many of us are making...he certainly isn't CONSIDERABLY better than DJO (or Jae) their junior years or whatever other adjectives are being used. It just isn't there.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on February 18, 2013, 02:10:11 PM
If 13lue goes, I hope it's a hyperinformed decision.
We can pull out the Chones story and try to apply it to today's world, but it doesn't work. There were two "premier" leagues at the time: NBA and ABA. Now it's just the NBA and at a distant 1,000,000th, the NBADL.
If he's not drafted, he's going to Europe where the money is. But without the guaranteed contracts the NBA offers, it's a riskier proposition.
At worse, he's playing in the NBADL wondering what a senior campaign would have looked like.
Not sure I would say the ABA was premiere. I would say that International leagues have replaced the ABA in terms of offering a second option for players.
Quote from: keefe on February 18, 2013, 04:14:36 PM
That's a bit obtuse. I wouldn't say considerably better but I would argue better. A separate question is Who is more valuable to the team and that is when you can factor in Butler. To that I would say VB is far more valuable to his team.
Agree, Blue is more valuable to this team because this team doesn't have a lot of talent. To which I opined if you were to put the junior version of Jae on this year's team, he would be equally valuable if not more so. That's part of the problem of comparing different teams with players from different teams.
Big East was better two years ago....tougher to get the stats back then
This year's team devoid of talent...Blue is going to shine
More talent on team 2 years ago that had to be shared with other players...diminishes some of the stats of those players
Tough to make those comparisons. I'm thankful for the Ken Pom statistical comparison, as flawed as that is also.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 04:19:53 PM
Agree, Blue is more valuable to this team because this team doesn't have a lot of talent. To which I opined if you were to put the junior version of Jae on this year's team, he would be equally valuable if not more so. That's part of the problem of comparing different teams with players from different teams.
Big East was better two years ago....tougher to get the stats back then
This year's team devoid of talent...Blue is going to shine
More talent on team 2 years ago that had to be shared with other players...diminishes some of the stats of those players
Tough to make those comparisons. I'm thankful for the Ken Pom statistical comparison, as flawed as that is also.
Well, if college basketball has disintegrated to the point that a team devoid of talent is in the top 20 and tied for first place in the Big East I guess a #1 seed or a national championship won't mean much this year.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 04:19:53 PM
Agree, Blue is more valuable to this team because this team doesn't have a lot of talent. To which I opined if you were to put the junior version of Jae on this year's team, he would be equally valuable if not more so. That's part of the problem of comparing different teams with players from different teams.
Big East was better two years ago....tougher to get the stats back then
This year's team devoid of talent...Blue is going to shine
More talent on team 2 years ago that had to be shared with other players...diminishes some of the stats of those players
Tough to make those comparisons. I'm thankful for the Ken Pom statistical comparison, as flawed as that is also.
Not that I disagree with you necessarily, but that entire season you were saying that we sucked and that Buzz CLEARLY had the program trending in the wrong direction, and that the league wasn't really all that tough, and that 9-9 was UNACCEPTABLE. Now you want to pump up the league that year to discount Blue. Just love watching you twist things.
And I'm really curious where this narrative came from that this year's team is utterly devoid of talent (not just from you). Blue, Cadougan, JWilson, Anderson, and Taylor were all RSCI top 100 players coming out of high school. Gardner is one of the most efficient offensive players in the nation. Mayo is a nice scorer. Everyone was at least a three star except Otule. We're tied for 1st in the BEast 2/3 the way through the season. Do we lack outside shooting? Yes, that is a weakness. But we're not utterly devoid of talent - not even close. And that talent seems to be coming together at the right time. College hoops is wide open this year, and we have the talent to make a run.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 04:05:17 PM
Another MU84
You win. Got me twice today on the ex pats tax issue and VB going pro.
Expat Tax issues. Both PepsiCo and GE used the same firm to manage that stuff for expats so I was able to use the same guy for 12 years. I called him a couple weeks ago and told him I spent most of last year working off shore and needed tax advice. My off shore income was zero since it was all volunteer work but I incurred tens of thousands of dollars worth of expense related to that volunteer work. He said that under the US Tax Code a lot of personal expenses from volunteer work off shore can reduce my overall tax burden. I called really just to say hi and ended up saving a few bucks. The best part is he said he would do it pro bono since my stuff was charity work. You've been over there a while so you likely have solid advice but if you need a great guy I would recommend Anthony Tong with PWC.
Keefe
Thanks for the lead. Glad to hear at least one ex pat was not screwed by the US government last year.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 05:02:52 PM
Keefe
Thanks for the lead. Glad to hear at least one ex pat was not screwed by the US government last year.
Yea, I had to have off shore income of zero in order to not get screwed by Uncle Sugar. I loved the guys who worked without a W2. When the off shore exclusion was $75K they always seemed to make between $65-70K. I guess the exclusion is around $97K now?
Where are in China are you based?
Office in Guangzhou. $97k is the number now I think.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 04:06:51 PM
Well, we will agree to disagree? Statistically I think it's a wash if not benefit to Jae and DJO. Tougher league back then, but they still had slightly better stats and had better players on the team they had to share the ball with. It's tough to break through when you have DJO and Butler also on the team, but he did. When you say "no comparison" that makes me scratch my head. If you look statistically, not only is there a comparison but one can easily argue VB loses that argument...so I don't get where "no comparison" comes from, ESPECIALLY when you look at how much better the Big East was that season and what VB's role is on this team vs those guys roles on that team.
Going into his senior season, Crowder and DJO were both preseason All Big East picks so I don't think I would agree that people didn't think they were for real until midseason. People knew they were pretty good before the season even started. Blue will be a preseason all Big East player going into his senior season as well, if he sticks around.
If Blue leaves, he leaves. I wish him the best. Hopefully he makes it. To me, he is undersized, hasn't proven he can play the point, has a very inconsistent outside shot. Another year would do him well.
DJO was preseason All-Big East and absolutely considered Marquette's best player.
Jae was honorable mention choice.
http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-men/hc-big-east-preseason-players,0,3642946.story
So while Jae didn't exactly sneak up on people his senior year, there were few if any out there who expected him to be PoY.
Jae was a major surprise to many. I do not recall his expectations going into last year matching DJO but could be wrong.
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on February 18, 2013, 01:46:18 PM
Here are my two cents in this conversation.
IF Blue wants to go pro, he should do this after his junior year. The draft class of this year is the worst in decades; it's absolutely atrocious. He might sneak in as a middle 2nd rounder or later or something.
His senior year draft class is STACKED beyond belief. Wiggins, Harrison twins, that whole Kentucky team in general, maybe Jabari Parker. If he wants to play in the Association, he should declare after this year.
With that said, I do not think he will declare. He will come back for his senior year and win the national championship ;D
His skills need a lot of work and we'll see how he plays in this final part of the season and the NCAA's. I think how he plays in March is key for his decision.
Except the relative strength/weakness of the draft class really only matters if VB can work his way into the first round and get a guaranteed deal.
Otherwise, there's pretty much no advantage between being a second-round pick and being a free agent. Being a second-round pick helps a bit in that a GM isn't eager to cut a guy he just drafted, but being a free agent gives you the chance to choose your situation (and go where you have the best opportunity) rather than have it chosen for you.
And, in regards to all that, Vander doesn't appear to be on the radar as a first-round pick right now. Of course, I'm not sure JFB as at this time his senior year either, so there's still time. But unless he's a lock in the first, he's better off coming back to MU and working on his ball skills.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 18, 2013, 04:36:36 PM
Well, if college basketball has disintegrated to the point that a team devoid of talent is in the top 20 and tied for first place in the Big East I guess a #1 seed or a national championship won't mean much this year.
What means more: screwing the Prom Queen at 17 or tapping her on a mattress on the floor of her trailer at 45 after 6 kids, 4 bad marriages, and years of drinking cheap rye whiskey?
Blue should test the waters and declare for the draft like Ty Lawson did his junior year at UNC. As long as he doesn't sign with an agent, he'll have the option of coming back and gain experience of the rookie camp. He'll also get insight of draft possibility.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on February 18, 2013, 07:21:03 PM
Blue should test the waters and declare for the draft like Ty Lawson did his junior year at UNC. As long as he doesn't sign with an agent, he'll have the option of coming back and gain experience of the rookie camp. He'll also get insight of draft possibility.
+1 Nothing wrong with this. In fact, Jamil Wilson should consider the same.
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on February 18, 2013, 01:46:18 PM
Here are my two cents in this conversation.
IF Blue wants to go pro, he should do this after his junior year. The draft class of this year is the worst in decades; it's absolutely atrocious. He might sneak in as a middle 2nd rounder or later or something.
His senior year draft class is STACKED beyond belief. Wiggins, Harrison twins, that whole Kentucky team in general, maybe Jabari Parker. If he wants to play in the Association, he should declare after this year.
If the draft is the worst in decades (no idea if this is true), then won't more juniors declare than normal? Heck, you might have some sophomores declare more than normal. Since VB seems to have problem even ranking among the top 50 juniors right now, that leads me to believe if the market is flooded with more juniors and sophomores than normal to take advantage of the weak draft it will hurt him just the same.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 05:13:11 PM
Office in Guangzhou. $97k is the number now I think.
Man I remember when Shenzhen was duck farms and Guangzhou was still Canton. Back then nobody lived in Guangzhou so you would take the KCR or the Hydrofoil up the Pearl Estuary. I remember going into the head on the KCR and the sh1tter was a squatter hole in the floor without a reservoir. Most people had bad aim points so the floor was a filthy mess but if you were accurate your 'stuff' fell straight onto the tracks! It was then that I vowed to always take the hydrofoil.
I remember one of my first trips to Guangzhou. I had learned Mandarin so I laid it on the waitress at Bei Yuan. She immediately let me know in a torrent of Cantonese that she didn't care for Putonghua! I'm sure you know about it but Bei Yuan serves up the best damn Dim Sum outside of Hong Kong. And you can eat like a Tai Pan for less than $10. Incredible.
I'm a big Vander fan, and I do think he has a shot to play in the league someday.
With this said, his current performance/skill set isn't there yet.
He has the physical tools (size, speed, agility, quickness), but he still lacks the polish a sub 6'9" player needs to get drafted.
Big guys and freaky athletes get drafted on potential. Not many 6'3" guys drafted on potential. They usually have to have their game well sorted.
Vander is light years ahead of last year, but still needs to make another jump in the off season to really have a shot at the NBA. Shooting would still be an area for improvement.
He is a very good college player right now, and if he has another good off season, he could be 1st team all Big East next year and be in the conversation for conference POY.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 07:44:16 PM
If the draft is the worst in decades (no idea if this is true), then won't more juniors declare than normal? Heck, you might have some sophomores declare more than normal. Since VB seems to have problem even ranking among the top 50 juniors right now, that leads me to believe if the market is flooded with more juniors and sophomores than normal to take advantage of the weak draft it will hurt him just the same.
It will be very interesting to see who goes and who stays. All of these players will be watching each other to see what they do. Im guessing there will be a lot of last minute agent signings.
The college basketball talent level wont be any better next year. The very top few players will prob be better compared to this year but they dont do anything for the average team (and half of them are going to UK anyways).
I have always been a Vander Blue fan and I am thrilled with his leading this year's team. But I believe that if he leaves early he better have his passport ready.
Not to nitpick, but outside of Goose and his source, does anybody actually think Vander is going?
This reminds me when "everybody" thought Buzz was leaving, when it reality there were about 3 people who thought that and then everybody commented on all of the variables.
Vander has some nice physical attributes, but I can't remember the last SG drafted who shot 30% from the college 3pt line.
Quote from: Jajuannaman on February 18, 2013, 04:48:11 PM
Not that I disagree with you necessarily, but that entire season you were saying that we sucked and that Buzz CLEARLY had the program trending in the wrong direction, and that the league wasn't really all that tough, and that 9-9 was UNACCEPTABLE. Now you want to pump up the league that year to discount Blue. Just love watching you twist things.
And I'm really curious where this narrative came from that this year's team is utterly devoid of talent (not just from you). Blue, Cadougan, JWilson, Anderson, and Taylor were all RSCI top 100 players coming out of high school. Gardner is one of the most efficient offensive players in the nation. Mayo is a nice scorer. Everyone was at least a three star except Otule. We're tied for 1st in the BEast 2/3 the way through the season. Do we lack outside shooting? Yes, that is a weakness. But we're not utterly devoid of talent - not even close. And that talent seems to be coming together at the right time. College hoops is wide open this year, and we have the talent to make a run.
Nope....use that little search engine link up top there and go back and read what I actually said that year. I'm not going to let you get away with false claims. Go ahead...or just issue your apology now.
I think 4ever stated it pretty well the other day on talent. We're slow, outside of Vander. We don't shoot well. We generally don't have a lot of solid athletes like we did the last few years. As such, Vander stands out even more. While a few years ago, with Butler, Crowder, DJO, etc, it was much harder to stand out for Jae or anyone else because everyone was quick, everyone was athletic. That's one of the reasons the year we had that year was disappointing, but I didn't say we sucked the entire season nor did I say he had the program trending in the wrong direction. I just love watching you make up crap or taking one statement I make and extrapolating that to ALL SEASON LONG YOU SAID.....
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2013, 05:14:12 PM
DJO was preseason All-Big East and absolutely considered Marquette's best player.
Jae was honorable mention choice.
http://www.courant.com/sports/uconn-men/hc-big-east-preseason-players,0,3642946.story
So while Jae didn't exactly sneak up on people his senior year, there were few if any out there who expected him to be PoY.
Correct, him becoming POY was a surprise. But he was preseason all Big East team and expected to be one of the better players on the team and in the league...which of course he was.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 08:59:34 PM
Correct, him becoming POY was a surprise. But he was preseason all Big East team and expected to be one of the better players on the team and in the league...which of course he was.
Is "honorable mention" the same thing as All-Big East?
You just lectured jajuannaman about not being factually correct. So come on, Chicos, be factually correct. He wasn't even second-team All-Big East. He was a 12 ppg scorer from the previous season who was expected to improve and be the second-best player on a good squad. Don't exaggerate to try to make your point.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on February 18, 2013, 08:36:01 PM
Vander has some nice physical attributes, but I can't remember the last SG drafted who shot 30% from the college 3pt line.
Tony Wroten shot under 20%.
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2013, 09:06:16 PM
Is "honorable mention" the same thing as All-Big East?
You just lectured jajuannaman about not being factually correct. So come on, Chicos, be factually correct. He wasn't even second-team All-Big East. He was a 12 ppg scorer from the previous season who was expected to improve and be the second-best player on a good squad. Don't exaggerate to try to make your point.
Uhm, YES, it is. Just as making honorable mention after the season is being named to an ALL BIG EAST team. There are designations, 1st team, 2nd team, honorable mention...in all cases they are part of an ALL Big East team (or Big 12, or Pac 12, or fill in the blank). That's how it works. That's also why I specifically said All Big East team and didn't call out First team, or Second team, etc. So yes, I am 100% factually correct to the absolute letter of what I said.
EDIT: Just to give you some concrete examples of this in our own conference and others..."named to all Big East team" even though they weren't all first team.
http://www.pittsburghpanthers.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/120612aaa.html
http://www.und.com/sports/w-lacros/spec-rel/012313aab.html
http://www.kuathletics.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/100412aaa.html
Etc, etc
Quote from: honkytonk on February 18, 2013, 09:07:20 PM
Tony Wroten shot under 20%.
He did in his one year at U Dub. Kid has huge upside and that is why he was drafted. Had nothing to do with his outside shot. He probably should have stayed one more year - Romar really wanted him to but he went in the first round. His contract is for a $1.1MM a year so who's to say he was wrong. 19 y/o and getting paid more than a mil? I imagine he is not wanting for high quality female companionship.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 09:10:24 PM
Uhm, YES, it is. Just as making honorable mention after the season is being named to an ALL BIG EAST team. There are designations, 1st team, 2nd team, honorable mention...in all cases they are part of an ALL Big East team (or Big 12, or Pac 12, or fill in the blank). That's how it works. That's also why I specifically said All Big East team and didn't call out First team, or Second team, etc. So yes, I am 100% factually correct to the absolute letter of what I said.
EDIT: Just to give you some concrete examples of this in our own conference and others..."named to all Big East team" even though they weren't all first team.
http://www.pittsburghpanthers.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/120612aaa.html
http://www.und.com/sports/w-lacros/spec-rel/012313aab.html
http://www.kuathletics.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/100412aaa.html
Etc, etc
Not going to argue this.
With this argument, you clearly earned honorable mention status on the Scoop All-Debate Team. Congrats!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 18, 2013, 04:36:36 PM
Well, if college basketball has disintegrated to the point that a team devoid of talent is in the top 20 and tied for first place in the Big East I guess a #1 seed or a national championship won't mean much this year.
It's a credit to Buzz. Better as a sum of the parts than the individual talents. They play well as a team despite their lack of arhleticism and shooting ability. Nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2013, 09:24:23 PM
Not going to argue this.
With this argument, you clearly earned honorable mention status on the Scoop All-Debate Team. Congrats!
Nothing to argue. I said he was all Big East preseason team...that is correct and it's how this stuff works. Maybe it's part of our everyone gets a trophy culture, but that's how schools and conferences often report those teams.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on February 18, 2013, 08:36:01 PM
Not to nitpick, but outside of Goose and his source, does anybody actually think Vander is going?
This reminds me when "everybody" thought Buzz was leaving, when it reality there were about 3 people who thought that and then everybody commented on all of the variables.
Hah, no kidding. I read Goose's post and though "Great, here we go again". For those with bad memories, please remember only ONE MUScoop member said this, not "everybody".
Rocky
I will make sure to ONLY comment on positive things I hear in the future.
If Blue leaves then we have Todd (hopefully), Jamal, and Jajuan Johnson coming in and Jamil Wilson and OX back...I think he'd be a fool to leave with his jumpshot still mediocre and inconsistent, but hey it is what it is.
Quote from: Clam Crowder on March 24, 2013, 11:08:12 PM
If Blue leaves then we have Todd (hopefully), Jamal, and Jajuan Johnson coming in and Jamil Wilson and OX back...I think he'd be a fool to leave with his jumpshot still mediocre and inconsistent, but hey it is what it is.
I think it's foolish to expect any contribution from Todd Mayo. He's shown nothing this year.
Quote from: Bocephys on March 24, 2013, 11:11:30 PM
I think it's foolish to expect any contribution from Todd Mayo. He's shown nothing this year.
Agreed. Todd Mayo appears to be the one outlier on this team that doesn't seem to be all in with Buzz and the rest of the team.
Quote from: Bocephys on March 24, 2013, 11:11:30 PM
I think it's foolish to expect any contribution from Todd Mayo. He's shown nothing this year.
I honestly don't even think Todd will be here next year. I am just trying to be optimistic. In his defense...when you come off the bench after 15 minutes and get pulled after 1 mistake you don't have much of a chance to show your worth. I agree he's been pretty awful, but Jake coming in first off the bench over a player with superior talent shows us something is going on with this guy.
Quote from: MUSF on March 24, 2013, 11:16:09 PM
Agreed. Todd Mayo appears to be the one outlier on this team that doesn't seem to be all in with Buzz and the rest of the team.
I agree completely. Even his body language just reeks of indifference...Not the same player he was and not the player he could be at this point.
Enough. Watch the game and watch Todd's body language. After Blue's drive against Davidson he's first off the bench to chest bump and celebrate with Blue. No wild speculation, please.
Just saying the minutes dont line up with the talent. I dont know anything I just find todd to be an enigma at this point
Bad body language, disappointing expectations, where have I heard this before? Kinda sounds like the stuff that used to be said about Blue
Quote from: Clam Crowder on March 24, 2013, 11:38:34 PM
Just saying the minutes dont line up with the talent. I dont know anything I just find todd to be an enigma at this point
What has Todd done this year to warrant big minutes?
Hopefully, he works all summer on and of the court and contributes next year. The team will need his ball, next year really is the year for this roster.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 24, 2013, 11:42:34 PM
Bad body language, disappointing expectations, where have I heard this before? Kinda sounds like the stuff that used to be said about Blue
Apple, orange, banana, hammer... Nice try.
Blue never lost significant minutes, his production didn't drop significantly, and he was never suspended indefinitely.
Why did all of the above happen with Todd and not Vander? I can't say because I don't know, but I can tell you what it looks like from my living room, hence the purpose of message boards.