Unless I missed it, I'm surprised no one has started a thread about Otule's improvement the last few games. He seems to be moving better than anytime this year and has been playing more aggressively as well.
It seems like only now is he really recovering and getting back into the groove. Here's hoping he stays healthy because his presence could be a big factor next month.
Thoughts/comments?
P.S. Let's stop the talk that Otule is going to "move on" next year. And do what? Start selling insurance? All scenarios make MU a worse team without him next year and if he has a chance to play another year, absolutely take it with hesitation.
Big Otule fan. He has had a solid season and, as AnotherMU says, he has played especially well the last few games. His interior presence on defense -- whether blocking shots or influencing them -- has been worth several points per game.
I hope like heck he stays healthy for the rest of this season and then decides to come back for 2013-14. There are not many center tandems in the nation better than Otule-Gardner. And those two seniors, who would have a combined 10 years of experience next season, would be rocks for a team that will have five newcomers.
By now, I like to think there isn't a single MU fan who believes the team somehow would be better off without Chris Otule next season. If there is, I'd love to hear the explanation.
It's been very exciting to see his defense and touch around the hoop progress.
Otule was outstanding yesterday. Next time you see Davante next to Chris, you then realize how big he really is. Otule next year makes MU a Top 10 team if Duane Wilson or John
Dawson can play as good as Cadougan. The rest of the team is going to be better. Otule, Taylor, Wilson, Anderson up front with Gardner, Mayo, Blue, Johnson, and McKay, that is
11 deep and I did add Burton. That leaves 2 players not included in the mix.
If Otule stays...who goes?
Jake's scholarship goes bye-bye.
With 5 newcomers, I believe that leaves us one over if Otule comes back.
History has shown that this kind of thing usually takes care of itself. Maybe Vander gets bad advice and goes pro. Maybe Mayo thinks he can find greener pastures elsewhere. Maybe somebody (Jamal Ferguson?) is "encouraged" to transfer. Maybe one of the newcomers decides to go elsewhere for whatever reason.
Too many variables to know right now. The only thing I know for sure is that we have been pining for good big men for a decade ... and now that we have two of them, we should keep it that way for 2013-14 if Otule wants to return.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2013, 10:46:54 PM
Jake's scholarship goes bye-bye.
With 5 newcomers, I believe that leaves us one over if Otule comes back.
History has shown that this kind of thing usually takes care of itself. Maybe Vander gets bad advice and goes pro. Maybe Mayo thinks he can find greener pastures elsewhere. Maybe somebody (Jamal Ferguson?) is "encouraged" to transfer. Maybe one of the newcomers decides to go elsewhere for whatever reason.
Too many variables to know right now. The only thing I know for sure is that we have been pining for good big men for a decade ... and now that we have two of them, we should keep it that way for 2013-14 if Otule wants to return.
I think Otule gets right of first refusal on this. After all, if Mbakwe can hang around CBB for 12 years then Otule should get another.
With all the ACL talk surrounding all the athletes over the past year, what he has done has been amazing. December 6, 2011 Otule tore his ACL. He was back in under a year, and is making an impact in games. His aggressiveness has been awesome. Adding some shotblocking. Just keeps looking better.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 17, 2013, 09:59:15 PM
P.S. Let's stop the talk that Otule is going to "move on" next year. And do what? Start selling insurance? All scenarios make MU a worse team without him next year and if he has a chance to play another year, absolutely take it with hesitation.
Chris really is playing well. Its sad to think what might have been had he not gotten hurt last year. Possible BE Regular season Champ, possible #1 seed.
However, Chris is not going to be selling insurance. He can play in Europe and make decent money. So given its unlikely he'd make it in the NBA regardless of how long he stays and he has his degree why stay broke in college when you make some money. I suspect that the only thing that would keep him is if Buzz felt that they had the pieces to have a real shot at a national title. That's a streach but that would be worth it. Otherwise its really in his best interest in life to go on, make some money while he can and given someone else on the roster a shot.
Having Chris next year makes MU better but its not transformational because you'd have DG and McKay anyway. If one of the PGs comes in and is better than Junior is now, you add outside shooting and J Wilson has big senior year then you have the pieces.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on February 17, 2013, 11:20:53 PM
Chris really is playing well. Its sad to think what might have been had he not gotten hurt last year. Possible BE Regular season Champ, possible #1 seed.
However, Chris is not going to be selling insurance. He can play in Europe and make decent money. So given its unlikely he'd make it in the NBA regardless of how long he stays and he has his degree why stay broke in college when you make some money. I suspect that the only thing that would keep him is if Buzz felt that they had the pieces to have a real shot at a national title. That's a streach but that would be worth it. Otherwise its really in his best interest in life to go on, make some money while he can and given someone else on the roster a shot.
Having Chris next year makes MU better but its not transformational because you'd have DG and McKay anyway. If one of the PGs comes in and is better than Junior is now, you add outside shooting and J Wilson has big senior year then you have the pieces.
Or maybe Otule just loves Marquette, loves the relatively care-free college life, loves the idea of getting an advanced degree for free, loves the sense of "family" here and realizes that European dollars will still be there a year later.
Either way, I would applaud his decision.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2013, 11:30:20 PM
Or maybe Otule just loves Marquette, loves the relatively care-free college life, loves the idea of getting an advanced degree for free, loves the sense of "family" here and realizes that European dollars will still be there a year later.
Either way, I would applaud his decision.
If The Lanche and Lenny's are still open he stays. It is problematic otherwise.
I, too, am pleased with how he is playing. This is a pleasant change to those who just looked at stats and said we were better off without him last year. No way. Just having that presence out there changes the game.
Quote from: MU82 on February 17, 2013, 11:30:20 PM
Or maybe Otule just loves Marquette, loves the relatively care-free college life, loves the idea of getting an advanced degree for free, loves the sense of "family" here and realizes that European dollars will still be there a year later.
Either way, I would applaud his decision.
This is kind of how I feel about Otule. For all that he has been through the last 5 years and the relatively low minutes he has played, he has got to love Marquette. Never seems to have a bad attitude and has obviously been working his tail off to rehab back to where he is now from his injury. Many other guys would have thrown in the towel at this point. Big respect for Chris.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 17, 2013, 09:59:15 PM
P.S. Let's stop the talk that Otule is going to "move on" next year. And do what? Start selling insurance? All scenarios make MU a worse team without him next year and if he has a chance to play another year, absolutely take it with hesitation.
He could find a job playing professionally tomorrow. Dwight Burke played professionally for many years.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 18, 2013, 08:34:38 AM
He could find a job playing professionally tomorrow. Dwight Burke played professionally for many years.
How many years will he get? He has yet be able to string together 2 injury free seasons.
Buzz said on his radio show a few weeks ago he would love to have Otule back but the decision is his. That settles that half of the equation. I've heard Otule say nothing on his side, unless I missed something.
The only place their is talk of him not coming back is this board ... The place that gets things specatularly wrong like Hiroshima, not making the Tourney after the UWGB loss and Buzz cannot recruit The state of Wisconsin.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 08:49:31 AM
How many years will he get? He has yet be able to string together 2 injury free seasons.
I'm sure he's thinking the same thing, he's already 23. If he comes back he'll be nearly 25 before earning a paycheck, and risk further injury a sixth year. I don't know what kind of money is available but if he can make six figures, tax free, that would be hard to turn down.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 08:50:14 AM
Buzz said on his radio show a few weeks ago he would love to have Otule back but the decision is his. That settles that half of the equation. I've heard Otule say nothing on his side, unless I missed something.
The only place their is talk of him not coming back is this board ... The place that gets things specatularly wrong like Hiroshima, not making the Tourney after the UWGB loss and Buzz cannot recruit The state of Wisconsin.
Where was this discussion?
Regarding Otule, he is ably doing what he can. I'm just happy some of the people on here have finally stopped the "upper echelon center" bullcrap. I don't think he comes back but no issues if he does.
I think if Chris finishes this season without injury, he should go for the highest offer to play basketball for money. Why risk playing a 6th year in college for no money with the chance of injury.
I know the general manager of the Nyon Switzerland team. Karon Bradley plays for them this year. They pay 3k/month and income is double taxed unless you give up your US citizenship. All players in that league get the same money. The pay them monthly so a higher league can easily buy them out.
Otule might be at a higher level but not much more than that. 100k a year would be if Otule was a marginal NBA player, which he is not.
So pass on a 6th year, clear maybe 30k or 40k after expenses. Be miserable living in a different culture and then come back to the US to sell insurance? Bad deal.
Play a sixth year at MU, get an advanced degree and start the rest of your life. Better deal. See joe Fulce.
Chris is playing very well lately. Buzz says he's dominating in practices and it's showing up in games. Next year? Whatever he decides. Love to have him, understand if he wants to move on.
No doubt he should go play for pay. Life is short and I hope he goes and makes some good money. Appears to be good kid and hard worker. Either way I hope the he finds success in life.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 09:25:52 AM
No doubt he should go play for pay. Life is short and I hope he goes and makes some good money. Appears to be good kid and hard worker. Either way I hope the he finds success in life.
He
should do what he wants to do.
He also should do lots of research to see if "play for pay" in his case means a decent living or a substandard one. Lots and lots of overseas pros make nowhere near six figures.
Like you, I wish him nothing but success.
MU82
Tax free money if living overseas. Making 80K with living expenses covered and no taxes is not a bad deal for young guy.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 09:37:43 AM
MU82
Tax free money if living overseas. Making 80K with living expenses covered and no taxes is not a bad deal for young guy.
Not too many recent Marquette grads making $80K per year. A lot of them are back living with their parents and working at what used to be their summer job. And Chris won't have any student loans to pay off.
Quote from: MU82 on February 18, 2013, 09:35:10 AM
He should do what he wants to do.
He also should do lots of research to see if "play for pay" in his case means a decent living or a substandard one. Lots and lots of overseas pros make nowhere near six figures.
Like you, I wish him nothing but success.
+1
Guys here grotesquely over estimate the money that can be made overseas. You play overseas for largely two reasons,
1. You are not qualified to do anything else and you make barely enough to survive but hey it beats driving a taxi.
2. As an alternative to the NBDL and you're still trying to improve to get into the league. See DJO is St. Peterberg.
Otule is not in either of these categories.
Quote from: warriorchick on February 18, 2013, 09:44:34 AM
Not too many recent Marquette grads making $80K per year. A lot of them are back living with their parents and working at what used to be their summer job. And Chris won't have any student loans to pay off.
That's what a presidential candidate was sayin', aina?
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 09:37:43 AM
MU82
Tax free money if living overseas. Making 80K with living expenses covered and no taxes is not a bad deal for young guy.
Where did you come up with this? Where did you get 80k? Who covers living expenses? Why is it tax free? It is the opposite, you get screwed by paying us and your country's taxes, it is the opposite.
And even if you're right, this assumes your body can make it through a 70 to 80 game season. Otule cannot assume that.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 18, 2013, 09:48:06 AM
That's what a presidential candidate was sayin', aina?
He was right.
I love spending pro team owners' money, so I enjoy saying the Cubs should sign so-and-so or the Lakers should trade for a high-paid star.
I don't love telling an individual what personal choices he or she should make. Which is why, again, I say the only thing Otule should do is whatever he wants to do.
As a Marquette fan, I hope he returns because he's a valuable center and a great team guy. As a fellow human being and a father of two kids about Otule's age, I hope he does whatever puts him on track for a happy, satisfying life.
He should stick around and work on a post-graduate degree. Rack up those credits while they're free.
Another MU84
You do not sound very sure on your post. Is it double taxed or tax free?
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 10:24:33 AM
Another MU84
You do not sound very sure on your post. Is it double taxed or tax free?
If you maintain you US citizenship, you pay US taxes AND the country taxes plus most European country's have an 18% VAT (sales tax). So, expect about 60% to 2/3rd of your salary to be gone in taxes. Also, you have to declare a state you live in. That is usually the last state you lived in. So MU players playing overseas also pay WI state taxes too. In the case of Otule, he might be able to declare Texas but he is no longer a minor so I'm not sure how that works (about which state you must declare)
If you give up your US citizenship, you escape US taxes. But former Americans that give up their US citizenship are only allowed in the country 30 days a year. Stay the 31st day and you're declared a US Citizen again and immediately hammered with US taxes for that year.
The US punishes Americans living overseas.
Another MU84
You sure about that?
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 10:31:29 AM
Another MU84
You sure about that?
Goose, if we did not punish Americans living overseas, million of Americans would leave. That is why we do it.
Punish American's for living abroad? At one time I had three family members living in three different continents trying to earn a living. I think there leaving their family's to earn a living might be punishment enough. Not going to argue this one with you...last post pretty much summed your point.
Quote from: keefe on February 17, 2013, 11:33:58 PM
If The Lanche and Lenny's are still open he stays. It is problematic otherwise.
Real Chili, too.
Save Real Chili!
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 10:29:28 AM
If you maintain you US citizenship, you pay US taxes AND the country taxes plus most European country's have an 18% VAT (sales tax). So, expect about 60% to 2/3rd of your salary to be gone in taxes. Also, you have to declare a state you live in. That is usually the last state you lived in. So MU players playing overseas also pay WI state taxes too. In the case of Otule, he might be able to declare Texas but he is no longer a minor so I'm not sure how that works (about which state you must declare)
If you give up your US citizenship, you escape US taxes. But former Americans that give up their US citizenship are only allowed in the country 30 days a year. Stay the 31st day and you're declared a US Citizen again and immediately hammered with US taxes for that year.
The US punishes Americans living overseas.
The US has a foreign tax credit. If you paid for taxes in the country you live (France, Germany, Dubai), you are credited this amount back by the US.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 10:24:33 AM
Another MU84
You do not sound very sure on your post. Is it double taxed or tax free?
I guess I would like some clarity on this as well. We were expats for four years in Central and South America growing up and my dad had always stated the taxes were outrageous considering we didn't live in the States but had to pay them back to Uncle Sammy anyway. Now, this was several decades ago so maybe things have changed. As far as I know, expats have to file US Income taxes on their worldwide income. In some countries, I believe, the taxes are not paid due to treaties and such (credits, etc), but that isn't the case in all countries. That's my recollection.
Quote from: PTM on February 18, 2013, 10:40:19 AM
The US has a foreign tax credit. If you paid for taxes in the country you live (France, Germany, Dubai), you are credited this amount back by the US.
That's what I understood (but wasn't certain about). So if a B-ball player's salary puts him in a 35% US bracket, and he pays, say 25% to Italy for their income tax, he would still owe Uncle Sam an additional 10%, right?
They will exact their pound(s) of flesh
http://business.time.com/2012/06/22/renouncing-your-citizenship-to-stick-it-to-the-tax-man-not-as-easy-as-it-looks/
Quote from: AZWarrior on February 18, 2013, 10:46:14 AM
That's what I understood (but wasn't certain about). So if a B-ball player's salary puts him in a 35% US bracket, and he pays, say 25% to Italy for their income tax, he would still owe Uncle Sam an additional 10%, right?
That's how I always understood it, in a dumbed down version.
I think he still has to pay Uncle Sam 35%, but can deduct the 25% he paid to Italy.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 10:37:53 AM
Punish American's for living abroad? At one time I had three family members living in three different continents trying to earn a living. I think there leaving their family's to earn a living might be punishment enough. Not going to argue this one with you...last post pretty much summed your point.
Believe me I'm not in favor of this policy at all. I have a business partner is Switzerland and when he explains the policies to me, and the double taxes he pays, it is hair raising.
And we have not even approached the subject of getting paid in Euros (or Swiss Francs or Russian Rubles) and then watch it lose 5% to 10% against the dollar ... you get a 5% to 10% reduction in pay. (anyone playing in Argentina? They just devalued by 46% last week, so you just lost half your pay in US dollars)
Your earlier post makes it sound like you take home your gross pay ("$80k tax free") ... it is the opposite, you pay more in taxes on earnings living overseas than in the US and take a currency risk too.
To the larger point here. Let me repeat, you go play in Europe because you can do nothing else or because it is a better option than the NBDL to get into the league. Neither fits Otule.
Quote from: AZWarrior on February 18, 2013, 10:46:14 AM
That's what I understood (but wasn't certain about). So if a B-ball player's salary puts him in a 35% US bracket, and he pays, say 25% to Italy for their income tax, he would still owe Uncle Sam an additional 10%, right?
Correct but Europe relies on a VAT (value added tax or "sales tax") which averages 18%. So, you pay maximum US income taxes even if you can avoid income taxes in your country, and then you pay in extra 18% for everything you buy. You get screwed.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 18, 2013, 10:44:26 AM
I guess I would like some clarity on this as well. We were expats for four years in Central and South America growing up and my dad had always stated the taxes were outrageous considering we didn't live in the States but had to pay them back to Uncle Sammy anyway. Now, this was several decades ago so maybe things have changed. As far as I know, expats have to file US Income taxes on their worldwide income. In some countries, I believe, the taxes are not paid due to treaties and such (credits, etc), but that isn't the case in all countries. That's my recollection.
CBB they rules were changed in the late 1990s when a bunch of zillionaires were leaving the US for Ireland to escape taxes.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 09:48:22 AM
Where did you come up with this? Where did you get 80k? Who covers living expenses? Why is it tax free? It is the opposite, you get screwed by paying us and your country's taxes, it is the opposite.
And even if you're right, this assumes your body can make it through a 70 to 80 game season. Otule cannot assume that.
Actually, clubs in Europe typically pay their players' local taxes and then the player gets credit for that when it comes time to pay Uncle Sam twice (hence no double taxation). They might have to pay some additional state and federal taxes back home, but it's far from the full hit.
Also, Euro clubs often provide players with housing and a car on top of their salary.
Chris should do what Chris wants to do, but it's not the least bit unreasonable to expect that after five years in college he might want start being paid for his efforts.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 18, 2013, 10:57:56 AM
Actually, clubs in Europe typically pay their players' local taxes and then the player gets credit for that when it comes time to pay Uncle Sam twice (hence no double taxation). They might have to pay some additional state and federal taxes back home, but it's far from the full hit.
Also, Euro clubs often provide players with housing and a car on top of their salary.
Chris should do what Chris wants to do, but it's not the least bit unreasonable to expect that after five years in college he might want start being paid for his efforts.
Europe has several levels of leagues. You're describing the top leagues that are luring guys away from the NBDL and/or 10 day contracts from the NBA. If you think Otule is that caliber, then he should entry the draft this spring. When you get into the second and third tier leagues, then get much less and none of these perks.
I believe that Keefe can provide the best answer regarding taxes and living expenses.
As for "getting screwed" Another MU84, I have yet to meet a person that worked abroad that did not find it to be worthwhile experience. Everything is relative, if living expenses are covered paying 18% VAT on purchases does not seem so bad to me.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 10:29:28 AM
If you maintain you US citizenship, you pay US taxes AND the country taxes plus most European country's have an 18% VAT (sales tax). So, expect about 60% to 2/3rd of your salary to be gone in taxes. Also, you have to declare a state you live in. That is usually the last state you lived in. So MU players playing overseas also pay WI state taxes too. In the case of Otule, he might be able to declare Texas but he is no longer a minor so I'm not sure how that works (about which state you must declare)
If you give up your US citizenship, you escape US taxes. But former Americans that give up their US citizenship are only allowed in the country 30 days a year. Stay the 31st day and you're declared a US Citizen again and immediately hammered with US taxes for that year.
The US punishes Americans living overseas.
For federal tax purposes, you get a foreign earned income exclusion up to $97,600. That means you pay local taxes up to $97,600. Beyond that you are required to pay in both jurisdictions. I lived in Europe for three years and while I was subject to higher European taxes, I was not penalized by Uncle Sam (my salary was below the exclusion limit).
http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome.htm
http://www.irs.gov/uac/2013-Inflation-Adjustments-to-Various-Tax-Benefits
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 11:32:55 AM
I believe that Keefe can provide the best answer regarding taxes and living expenses.
As for "getting screwed" Another MU84, I have yet to meet a person that worked abroad that did not find it to be worthwhile experience. Everything is relative, if living expenses are covered paying 18% VAT on purchases does not seem so bad to me.
I do, but of course, I know married people raising children overseas, have lived overseas for decades and want to hold their US citizenship and feel like the US Government is giving them the shaft. Now they could change that and move back but they do not, but that does not mean they like it.
Regarding your "worthwhile experience." Yes, it is, just like studying abroad a year ... it is fun and would recommend to every "kid" without hesitation.
That said, this is about Otule, not living overseas. If I'm generous, his body allows him to get through 2 foreign seasons of 70 to 80 games. Estimating what I think he gets paid and if he lives just above poverty, he comes back to the US at 26 or 27 with 50k to 100k in his pocket. Then what does he do the next 60 years?
If he is looking to maximize his potential future income, I'm guessing staying at MU a 6th year and getting an advance degree "on the house" and starting his non-basketball life offers him more potential. The only reason I see him "moving on" is he no longer likes playing for MU, which does not seem to be the case.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 11:44:58 AM
I do, but of course, I know married people raising children overseas, have lived overseas for decades and want to hold their US citizenship and feel like the US Government is giving them the shaft. Now they could change that and move back but they do not, but that does not mean they like it.
Regarding your "worthwhile experience." Yes, it is, just like studying abroad a year ... it is fun and would recommend to every "kid" without hesitation.
That said, this is about Otule, not living overseas. If I'm generous, his body allows him to get through 2 foreign seasons of 70 to 80 games. Estimating what I think he gets paid and if he lives just above poverty, he comes back to the US at 26 or 27 with 50k to 100k in his pocket. Then what does he do the next 60 years?
If he is looking to maximize his potential future income, I'm guessing staying at MU a 6th year and getting an advance degree "on the house" and starting his non-basketball life offers him more potential. The only reason I see him "moving on" is he no longer likes playing for MU, which does not seem to be the case.
For starters, we know nothing of Chris' academic status, so it's pretty presumptuous to suggest he either would need another year to get an advanced degree, would need to be on campus to finish his coursework, whetehr he could do it over a couple of offseasons, or could accomplish it in another year. We have no idea.
Also, it's a bit incongruous to suggest his body couldn't withstand playing in Europe for money, but it's a smart move to spend a year risking his body at Marquette for free. Maybe he gets hurt in Europe, maybe not, but at least he's being compensated for the risk.
Lastly, and most importantly, there's nothing that would preclude him from going to Europe to earn some money for a few years and then returning to Marquette to finish up whatever course work he may need to complete whatever degree he wishes. My guess is that kind of experience and worldliness would be seen as attractive to future employers.
Another MU84
I know married couples that have raised children and lived in the US for decades and feel the US government gives them the shaft. I do have some experience with folks living overseas and the vast majority remain overseas for two reasons, they love where they live or it financially rewarding. Another reason why many younger people remain overseas is because when they return many return to lower paying jobs.
Big companies do an outstanding job of retaining great talent overseas and a better job of churning lesser quality ex pats. There are a great deal of younger ex pats living overseas with a quality of life they never would experience at home. This goes from living expenses, drivers to kids educations.
I think Otule is back to where he was last year before he got hurt. Not only is the leg sound, but he is no longer worrying about it.
Quote from: bilsu on February 18, 2013, 12:29:18 PM
I think Otule is back to where he was last year before he got hurt. Not only is the leg sound, but he is no longer worrying about it.
+1 which was the purpose of this thread. He finally seems to be playing aggressively and it is showing on the court. It is said it takes about a year to recover from an ACL injury. In Otule's case the physical part took less than a year but the mental part, as you suggest, took a but longer and he is now seems past it.
Otule coming back for Year #6 benefits MU a lot more than it benefits him.
Quote from: The Lens on February 18, 2013, 12:41:16 PM
Otule coming back for Year #6 benefits MU a lot more than it benefits him.
Why is this statement different for Otule than the 12 other scholarship athletes? Why does it make sense for Otule to leave this summer for Europe but not, say, Jamil Wilson, DG or Steve Taylor? Why not Deonte Burton for that matter?
Sixth year athletes are very common in Football and Olympic sports. Why is it some kind of tragedy in basketball?
Eight different players have been SOG this year. Otule has not been one.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 18, 2013, 05:20:27 PM
Eight different players have been SOG this year. Otule has not been one.
and that matters how?
Otule will come back but Ferguson will leave and one of the incoming recruits will not come. We will have enough scholarships.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on February 18, 2013, 05:20:27 PM
Eight different players have been SOG this year. Otule has not been one.
That means less than zero.
Negative-10, let's say.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on February 18, 2013, 06:57:31 PM
Otule will come back but Ferguson will leave and one of the incoming recruits will not come. We will have enough scholarships.
We only need one of those situations to happen. Way too early to know which one.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 11:32:55 AM
I believe that Keefe can provide the best answer regarding taxes and living expenses.
As for "getting screwed" Another MU84, I have yet to meet a person that worked abroad that did not find it to be worthwhile experience. Everything is relative, if living expenses are covered paying 18% VAT on purchases does not seem so bad to me.
Here's the God's truth on Ex Pat Tax exposure:
The first $95K/$97K with utilities is taken off the top of your income. So if you are paid $195K in HK you only report $100K to the US.
There is NO double taxation! US Tax Code allows for Tax Equalization so you get credit for off shore taxes paid.
You do have to declare as income housing, cars, and other entitlements that typically come with Ex Pat packages. Here is a typical Fortune 100 Ex Pat Compensation "Package":
Salary*
Bonus*
100% Housing*
100% Utilities*
Car*
Driver
2 Home Leaves per year, Business Class Tix for each family member
Household Staff Allowance
International School Capital Debenture(s)
100% International School Fee Tuition**
Club Membership (American Club, Country Club, etc...)
International Health/Dental Care (Includes Air Evac if necessary)
100% Tax Advisory Services
100% Legal Advisory Services
* Indicates Taxable Item
** Partial Taxation
This is what both PepsiCo and GE Cap gave to Level 16's and above. My wife was with Microsoft and their program was similar. She had some touchy feely bull$hit for massages and such that I didn't.
I am brutally simplifying the tax implications but all of the taxable items are totaled, less the Off Shore Income exclusion. Then they take out any taxes paid to off shore jurisdictions. This was complicated as in regional roles there were taxes due in HK, PRC, the Philippines, Thailand, etc... for both of us. Now, a little known secret - the companies pay your off shore taxes in the tax equalization scheme so there is actually zero hit to your income. Also, since we both had duplicated benefits she converted her housing allowance into a local expense payment that was not taxable income in any jurisdiction. I was able to convert part of the school tuition into the same (Partial since school fees are more than $30k per child.)
If the question is should anyone take an expat gig? The answer is yes. Look at the above. You are making well into six figures but your only expenses are food, booze, clothing, and incidentals. I read many of the comments in this thread about expat gigs and the financial comments are just wrong. PM me if you have a specific question. Remember though I am not the Tax authority but wee went through this complicated drill every year so I have some insight.
Thanks Keefe. Could Not have said it better myself. Your post is exactly why I think CO should take the money and run. If you get a chance to be ex pat they should jump at it. maybe you should talk to Another MU 84 and get his "list of ex pat friends" and give them some advice. Sounds like they really are getting the shaft, or maybe just make believe ex pat friends...who knows?
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 07:18:32 PM
Thanks Keefe. Could Not have said it better myself. Your post is exactly why I think CO should take the money and run. If you get a chance to be ex pat they should jump at it. maybe you should talk to Another MU 84 and get his "list of ex pat friends" and give them some advice. Sounds like they really are getting the shaft, or maybe just make believe ex pat friends...who knows?
No offense to Another MU 84 as the US Tax Code is complicated but basically everything he wrote is, uh, misinformed. I would suggest they get a hold of Tony Tong at PWC HK for expert advice.
Quote from: keefe on February 18, 2013, 07:29:21 PM
No offense to Another MU 84 as the US Tax Code is complicated but basically everything he wrote is, uh, misinformed. I would suggest they get a hold of Tony Tong at PWC HK for expert advice.
Keefe we get that you do important things and make decent coin, you bring it up every third post. But this is a thread about the possibility of a 23 year kid forgoing a 6th year in college to play in Europe. So I'm not sure how the "typical fortune 100 package" affects Otule's decision. That said I'm glad you did set Goose straight that you do in fact pay taxes when playing overseas so their is no "80k tax free" option available which is started this entire discussion.
Instead Otule is looking at 35k to 50k taxable ... provided his body can handle a 70 to 80 game season.
Quote from: Goose on February 18, 2013, 07:18:32 PM
Thanks Keefe. Could Not have said it better myself. Your post is exactly why I think CO should take the money and run. If you get a chance to be ex pat they should jump at it. maybe you should talk to Another MU 84 and get his "list of ex pat friends" and give them some advice. Sounds like they really are getting the shaft, or maybe just make believe ex pat friends...who knows?
Goose ... he did not say Otule would pay no taxes. He would pay that country's taxes and then pay the higher of that country's taxes or the US rate about 97,000. Europe also has a 18% VAT. The rest of Keefe's post is completely irrelevant so I have absolutely no idea why it was even posted here.
Fact is Otule will make less money in Europe than the average MU business grad. Maybe Otule can do it one or two years where the business grade will begin a 50+ year career.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 07:45:55 PM
Goose ... he did not say Otule would pay no taxes. He would pay that country's taxes and then pay the higher of that country's taxes or the US rate about 97,000. Europe also has a 18% VAT. The rest of Keefe's post is completely irrelevant so I have absolutely no idea why it was even posted here.
Fact is Otule will make less money in Europe than the average MU business grad. Maybe Otule can do it one or two years where the business grade will begin a 50+ year career.
Still incorrect. Here are the facts:
Otule will pay zero US taxes on his first $95/97K.
He may or may not pay any taxes out of pocket in his local jurisdiction. Most of that will likely be paid by the employer through Tax Equalization (which has nothing to do with who your employer is - be it a Fortune 100 company or a Swiss BB Team.)
If he earns more than $95/97K he gets credit for foreign taxes paid. Again, because of Tax Equalization
he will likely not actually pay anything to the local jurisdiction. Companies pay that to Govt X then get a full credit on their corporate tax bill. His only exposure is to the US.
VAT is NOT Income Tax. It is a form of Sales Tax. And he will get a credit for that on his 1040.
The rest of my post was not irrelevant but it may have been to you since you clearly do not understand this issue.
Quote from: keefe on February 18, 2013, 08:04:22 PM
Still incorrect. Here are the facts:
Otule will pay zero US taxes on his first $95/97K.
He may or may not pay any taxes out of pocket in his local jurisdiction. Most of that will likely be paid by the employer through Tax Equalization (which has nothing to do with who your employer is - be it a Fortune 100 company or a Swiss BB Team.)
If he earns more than $95/97K he gets credit for foreign taxes paid. Again, because of Tax Equalization he will likely not actually pay anything to the local jurisdiction. Companies pay that to Govt X then get a full credit on their corporate tax bill. His only exposure is to the US.
VAT is NOT Income Tax. It is a form of Sales Tax. And he will get a credit for that on his 1040.
The rest of my post was not irrelevant but it may have been to you since you clearly do not understand this issue.
I give up ... European players are give a monthly salary in that country's currency subject to that country's tax laws. If they are from a Foreign Country, be it Croatia, Italy or the US, the rest is their problem to deal with. They do not pay "no taxes"
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 08:19:54 PM
I give up ... European players are give a monthly salary in that country's currency subject to that country's tax laws. If they are from a Foreign Country, be it Croatia, Italy or the US, the rest is their problem to deal with. They do not pay "no taxes"
There are tax treaties in place that provide for Tax Equalization. A player may have some exposure but it is minimal and not tied to his overall income. So I will grant you that Otule would have some exposure but it would really be about benefits and not income. Trust me. The tax rates in Europe are onerous but that is because of the social safety net for their citizenry. Since an American basketball player will not be use the health care system, the pension plan, etc... he is covered under a tax treaty. Employers will pay most of the tax and then be credited back. For instance, A basketball Club will have a medical scheme for all its foreign players and they submit that documentation to the govt to show that the foreigner will not be a liability - hence the credit.
In Asia the tax codes are much simpler. In HK and Singapore there are flat 15% rates with few exemptions. Employers pay that for you but then are credited back in their corp taxes because they demonstrate expats are not a burden to the local society.
Let me ask: have you ever travelled or lived abroad?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 07:39:04 PM
Keefe we get that you do important things and make decent coin
I am a humble retired Air Force veteran living on a fixed monthly pension. My needs are simple - a roof over my head, hot yak butter tea in the morning, a sleeping bag on a packed dirt floor, daal baht twice a day, a shimmering night sky above the roof of the world, and the smiles of orphans to warm the soul. Of these the only thing of importance is to bring joy to a traumatized orphan.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2t4NSadMxtg/TQC8xXLoZ1I/AAAAAAAABWQ/e_8PEqSfgBI/s1600/Varaha+Shikhar+and+Annapurna+South+in+B%2526W.jpg)
Quote from: keefe on February 18, 2013, 08:39:03 PMEmployers will pay most of the tax and then be credited back. For instance, A basketball Club will have a medical scheme for all its foreign players and they submit that documentation to the govt to show that the foreigner will not be a liability - hence the credit.
In Asia the tax codes are much simpler. In HK and Singapore there are flat 15% rates with few exemptions. Employers pay that for you but then are credited back in their corp taxes because they demonstrate expats are not a burden to the local society.
Let me ask: have you ever travelled or lived abroad?
This thread is about Otule, not how smart you are about foreign tax rates (which I could care less about). We have now established that Goose is wrong that American basketball players in European do not magically get to take home their gross pay ("80k tax free") and Goose even wildly inflates the pay American players get in Europe.
European bball is just like European soccer. Their is a top tier league like the premiership and various levels under that. Teams are elevated or relegated up and down the leagues depending on how well they do, just like European Soccer. My friend Swiss team is the third division and they pay $3,000 month and offer housing (4 guys to a two bedroom garden apartment, not unlike a college apartment). Karon Bradley (former MU player about 10 years ago) plays for them.
I have been to European Bball games and seen first hand that this Swiss team gets anywhere between 1000 and 1500 people a night, no TV or radio.
Now the top leagues will play close to seven figures. But that league is where Ricky Rubio played in Spain and has few Americans. To play in this league you can probably play in the NBA, which is why the Americans are not to be found. They are more likely to have Russian and Croatian players as foreigners rather than Americans.
The top second tier teams will pay near $100k/year (again the top teams) but again, these are guys they might be able to sign 10-day contracts in the NBA ... about as good as Jerel McNeal now. The third tier is what I was referring to ... they are glorified high school games.
If Otule wants to leave and get paid, he is not playing for a top team (and neither is Vander). If he could, then Otule could also get drafted and he should put in for the draft this spring. If he wants to play in the second tier he better be able to show his body can handle 70 to 80 games a year or they too will pass (Vander could possibly land here right now).
More likely Otule will be in the third tier. At this level their are no contracts but $3,000 month-to-month paychecks and good luck. The reason they are month-to-month is the players want it to be easy to literally walk out the door if a higher division league comes a calling (minimal buyout). That is what Karon and rest are doing ... hoping to play well enough to attract the attention of a second tier team and get signed for more money (as in immediately ... "be here in 48 hours"). Otule would start here and try and do the same.
European basketball is a financial disaster. Owners overpaid and salaries are too bloated because European teams thought the NBA would expand to Europe and if they spent and acted like an NBA team, they would be selected as an NBA franchise in Europe. This mentally went up and down the line. The NBA did not come a calling and they are all choking right now. Lots of team are in bankruptcy.
So if Otule wants to leave and "get paid" he is looking at a 70 to 80 game season at $3,000 month-to-month. Get hurt and your gone. And, yes, that $3,000 is not "tax free."
Pakuni is correct, none of know Otule's thinking and personal situation. My opinion is one of an outsider offering a partially informed decision (or a version of an uniformed decision). That said, it is more informed than the multitude of "I think Otule is leaving" opinions as they incorrectly think like Goose that he can make big bucks in a chauffeured car having fun in Europe. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is really hard dirty work, much harder and dirty than playing for MU. You do it because you want to move up or because you cannot do anything else (like I said before, it beats driving a taxi).
So, if Otule does not want to play next year, then he should retire from basketball and get on with his life. If he does, I have no problem with that and wish him well. If, on the other hand, he wants to continue to play, his best option, in my opinion, is to stay with MU.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 18, 2013, 09:17:43 PM
This thread is about Otule, not how smart you are about foreign tax rates (which I could care less about). We have now established that Goose is wrong that American basketball players in European do not magically get to take home their gross pay ("80k tax free") and Goose even wildly inflates the pay American players get in Europe.
European bball is just like European soccer. Their is a top tier league like the premiership and various levels under that. Teams are elevated or relegated up and down the leagues depending on how well they do, just like European Soccer. My friend Swiss team is the third division and they pay $3,000 month and offer housing (4 guys to a two bedroom garden apartment, not unlike a college apartment). Karon Bradley (former MU player about 10 years ago) plays for them.
I have been to European Bball games and seen first hand that this Swiss team gets anywhere between 1000 and 1500 people a night, no TV or radio.
Now the top leagues will play close to seven figures. But that league is where Ricky Rubio played in Spain and has few Americans. To play in this league you can probably play in the NBA, which is why the Americans are not to be found. They are more likely to have Russian and Croatian players as foreigners rather than Americans.
The top second tier teams will pay near $100k/year (again the top teams) but again, these are guys they might be able to sign 10-day contracts in the NBA ... about as good as Jerel McNeal now. The third tier is what I was referring to ... they are glorified high school games.
If Otule wants to leave and get paid, he is not playing for a top team (and neither is Vander). If he could, then Otule could also get drafted and he should put in for the draft this spring. If he wants to play in the second tier he better be able to show his body can handle 70 to 80 games a year or they too will pass (Vander could possibly land here right now).
More likely Otule will be in the third tier. At this level their are no contracts but $3,000 month-to-month paychecks and good luck. The reason they are month-to-month is the players want it to be easy to literally walk out the door if a higher division league comes a calling (minimal buyout). That is what Karon and rest are doing ... hoping to play well enough to attract the attention of a second tier team and get signed for more money (as in immediately ... "be here in 48 hours"). Otule would start here and try and do the same.
European basketball is a financial disaster. Owners overpaid and salaries are too bloated because European teams thought the NBA would expand to Europe and if they spent and acted like an NBA team, they would be selected as an NBA franchise in Europe. This mentally went up and down the line. The NBA did not come a calling and they are all choking right now. Lots of team are in bankruptcy.
So if Otule wants to leave and "get paid" he is looking at a 70 to 80 game season at $3,000 month-to-month. Get hurt and your gone. And, yes, that $3,000 is not "tax free."
Pakuni is correct, none of know Otule's thinking and personal situation. My opinion is one of an outsider offering a partially informed decision (or a version of an uniformed decision). That said, it is more informed than the multitude of "I think Otule is leaving" opinions as they incorrectly think like Goose that he can make big bucks in a chauffeured car having fun in Europe. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is really hard dirty work, much harder and dirty than playing for MU. You do it because you want to move up or because you cannot do anything else (like I said before, it beats driving a taxi).
So, if Otule does not want to play next year, then he should retire from basketball and get on with his life. If he does, I have no problem with that and wish him well. If, on the other hand, he wants to continue to play, his best option, in my opinion, is to stay with MU.
The median salary for Americans playing in Europe is $172K. In addition, players receive housing allowances, transport, living expenses, medical schemes, and transportation from and to their home of record. There is minimal out of pocket local tax exposure for players as they are covered by Tax Equalization. Their tax liability is on income above $97K. Any moneys paid out of pocket are netted out of their IRS liability.
So Goose is correct in saying a player will be able to take home his first $97K tax free. It is all his less whatever he spends on food, booze, haircuts, hookers, cohibas, iTunes downloads, and other personal expenses.
For US Tax purposes, if he is at the median he only pays tax on the remaining $75K - which is treated as $75K and not $172K on the schedules. Huge difference in liability.
For Local Tax purposes, his BB Club will pay his tax bill and receive credit on their tax liability. In some jurisdictions the exposure on USD172K can approximate 70% but this gets reduced quickly since the club will prove the player is not receiving benefit from the myriad social programs (medical, unemployment, pension, parity schemes, educational schemes, retraining, etc...) that citizens and PRs get.
So assume the player gets his tax exposure down to appox 15% on his $75K taxable income his net liability is appox $11K which is an effective tax rate of 6.4%. Since his housing, transport, utilities are covered and he receives per diem that covers most out of pocket expenses and food he really only spends on booze, hookers and cohibas. Let's say he spends $2K/month on pleasure his net annual earnings is $137K.
As much as I would like Chris to stay one more year I think he should get on with life and make some money in Europe. Since he likely isn't into hookers or cohibas and doesn't drink like a fighter pilot his retained earnings are likely higher than what is outlined here. Let's say he has a nice run of 5 years - he can have a nice nest egg set aside before he is 30.
Quote from: keefe on February 19, 2013, 04:47:25 AM
The median salary for Americans playing in Europe is $172K.
Let's say he has a nice run of 5 years - he can have a nice nest egg set aside before he is 30.
Link for that salary claim please becasue it seems wildly off ... by a factor of three
http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2012/07/30/nba-d-league-vs-european-basketball-why-dont-more-players-go-to-europe/
The worst part about basketball players staying in the USA and playing in the D-league is the fact that most D-league salaries range from only $12,000 to $24,000. Average overseas players can get a $65,000 contract with ease. Depending on the league that players get into in Europe, salaries can start as high as $100,000. Not quite $172,000 ... and that $65,000 includes a bunch of players that are much better than Otule, like DJO that were actually drafted and put on an NBA uniform this year. Again, if you think Otule can get $65,000 to $100,000 year in Europe that he should hire an agent and try and get drafted this coming spring as they are about the same odds. Neither is happening.
Regarding a "5 year run" ... think about Otule's last five years playing for MU on a 30 game schedule. He has missed 2 of the last 4 years due to injury. Given that history, what makes you think he can play the next five in a league that plays 70 to 80 games a year? I would like it to happen but to leave under the assumption that is body is now ready for 350 games over the next five years is not a good one.
Another MU84
Your point on CO is valid. Difference between CO and DJO is size. Big men are hard to find and get paid for size.
Also not mentioned in this conversation is Many European leagues restrict the number of foreign players, typically to 1 or 2 per team. Teams also prefer veteran players that have experience in Europe over rookies given how hard the transition is.
http://www.globesportsmanagement.com/USA%20players%20in%20Europe.htm
Number of import players allowed per team:
1st div, 2nd div, 3rd div 4th div, 5th div
France 2 2 1 1 (64 teams) 2 (144 teams)
Italy 4 3 only ITA passports starting from 3rd Divisions
Spain 3 non E.U. 2 1
Greece 2 2
Turkey 2 2
Germany 2 1 1 to . (regional rules - hundreds of teams)
Belgium 2 1
Luxemburg 1 1 1 1
Generally . 2 1 / 2 Local rules
Holland No limit
-----
So to even get into the top few divisions you have to considered one of the top 100 Americans not playing in the NBA. Otherwise it is a third or fourth division team. Is Otule even in the top 100 of the NCAA right now?
Pay by division (I bolded third and fourth division monthly salaries) ....
Average monthly salary for an import player (in US) : a rough idea with a few examples
1st div 2nd div 3rd div 4th div 5th div
France 11000 ,5000 ,2500, 1500 including maybe a job besides bball 1000 including maybe a job besides bball
Italy 15000, 10000 , 2500
Spain 15000 (some 50 000 !) 7000 5000
Greece 20 000 80000
Turkey 15000 7500
Germany 5000 (some 25 000) 3000 1500 1500 1500
Holland 3500 1500
Luxemburg 2500 1500
Switzerland 4000 1500
England 2500 1500
Poland 6000 3000
Scandinavia 4000 2000
Eastern Europe 3500-50000 ?
Keep in mind that the economic situation in Spain and Greece is so bad that some lower division clubs have flat out stopped paying players.
Quote from: Goose on February 19, 2013, 06:27:03 AM
Another MU84
Your point on CO is valid. Difference between CO and DJO is size. Big men are hard to find and get paid for size.
They are harder to find here. Less so if you're looking in Serbia, Russian the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe like these teams are. Lots of 7 foot players that have not missed two of the last four years with injury and already speak the native language. See the NBA ... how many guys in the league playing the 5 have European names?
Let me be clear about Otule ....
The point of this thread is he has played really nice the last few games. If he continues that for the rest of this season (which is maybe 10 more games) and all next year (maybe 30 games) then he will show potential and that he is over his injury bug. In this case he could be a first or second division European player (more likely second), and if he shows some offensive ability maybe even whispers of a late second round draft pick.
If he leaves now he is damaged goods with little offensive skills and only a few decent games at the end of this season to leverage off (assuming he continues to play well). I'm arguing that is not worth much and certainly not $172,000 with a car (anyone that has been to Europe knows you don't drive and if you do, I cannot see a 7 footer squeezing into a smart car).
Can he get play and get paid in Europe? Yes ... just not later this year when the next season starts.
A word on Rookie Salaries in Europe (remember that $65,000 is the average among all divisions with the division breakdowns are above)....
http://www.globesportsmanagement.com/USA%20players%20in%20Europe.htm
* Salary for a rookie may be one half to two third of the average salary
* European pro teams tend to sign less and less import rookies !
* The level of bball in Europe is far higher than it used to be
* The « Bosman » rule now allows a wider choice of players
* Teams now prefer to sign vet import players already accustomed to Europe and who can immediately fit into the team systems
Example : only one rookie (Kyle Hill from Eastern Illinois) in France's 1st division (32 imports) only 2 (Georgia Tech / Wisconsin) in France's 2nd division (36 imports)
* Same applies in many countries
* This means that unless you were in the NBA pre-draft lists or had tremendous reviews in a top NCAA D1 College, it will be difficult to start in a top pro league in Europe !
You will have to work your way up from either :
Some European countries where bball level is lower
A lower division of a « big » bball country (France, Italy .)
There, you will have to be very very good because top pro leagues coaches are generally « afraid » of recruiting a player coming from such leagues .
A vicious circle like we say in France .