I hope he is not the second coming of Jamail Jones
#4 OHIO ST Canceled
Sun 11/11 COLGATE 1-2 .500
Tue 11/13 SE LOUISIANA 0-1 .000
Mon 11/19 BUTLER 0-1 .000
Tue 11/20 MISS. ST 3-3 1.000
Wed 11/21 USC 0-2 .000
Mon 11/26 UMBC 2-5 .400
Thu 11/29 #7 FLORIDA 1-2 .500
Sat 12/8 WISCONSIN 0-2 .000
Sat 12/15 SAVANNAH ST 0-3 .000
Wed 12/19 GREEN BAY 1-4 .250
SAT 12/22 LSU 1-4 .250
Totals 9-29 .310
South Dakota
2009-2010 86-248 .347
2010-2011 89-202 .441
Total 175-450 .389
Not all that impressive. Give the minutes to Mayo. And The Big Sheesh.
I feel that he doesn't even look to shoot, and if that's the case, stay on the bench.
I saw him at Midnight Madness and was impressed; not so much anymore.
Midnight Madness is akin to the Playground. The good stuff happens tween the white lines.
Just making one per game and missing all the rest isn't what I expected. Not as advertised.
Still think he can be a 40% 3 point shooter on the year....just in a little bit of a slump/pressing. He's shown athletically he can at least compete defensively...still like him getting some minutes and stretching the D - but believe Mayo is much better even though Todd looked quite rusty today.
Was he marketed as a sharper version of Christopherson? If so he has yet to show it. But shooting from deep is an art and prone to streaks. Thomas may catch fire. Is not even Xmas yet.
Quote from: keefe on December 22, 2012, 03:55:22 PM
Was he marketed as a sharper version of Christopherson? If so he has yet to show it. But shooting from deep is an art and prone to streaks. Thomas may catch fire. Is not even Xmas yet.
Yes but the list above shows he has only made 3 treys since November 29 (6 games). I think we were hoping to see that kind of production in a half.
Career 39% shooter, shooting 31% right now. If he had 3 more makes for the year, he would be above his career percentage. If he had one more make at the right time, MU would have one more win. He's not far off. Like Trent, he just needs to get acclimated to the speed Buzz wants them to play.
As Mayo gets up to speed, Thomas should rarely see the floor. Lord knows he won't be playing much next year.
We could sure use a deep threat. Zones are going to kill us in conf play.
He hesitates and then measures it and shoots it short almost every time, feels the pressure!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 22, 2012, 04:00:12 PM
As Mayo gets up to speed, Thomas should rarely see the floor. Lord knows he won't be playing much next year.
I think Mayo is going to take more of Lockett's minutes than Jake's.
Quote from: tower912 on December 22, 2012, 04:29:29 PM
I think Mayo is going to take more of Lockett's minutes than Jake's.
Not a chance. Lockett actually wasn't that bad today - he continues to get rebounds and can do a lot of things out there. Nothing spectacular mind you, but the little stuff that needs to be done for a basketball team to be successful. Thomas doesn't do that.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 22, 2012, 04:36:17 PM
Not a chance. Lockett actually wasn't that bad today - he continues to get rebounds and can do a lot of things out there. Nothing spectacular mind you, but the little stuff that needs to be done for a basketball team to be successful. Thomas doesn't do that.
He was terrible in the second half. He is so tentative offensively (two different times he grabbed a board under the hoop and tried to dribble out, leading to TOs both times) and defensively he looked like a liability.
Sultan, I think we are destined to disagree here. You and I haven't agreed in a thing we have seen out of Lockett or Thomas this year. To me, it appears that neither one is used to playing at MU's game speed. It affects Lockett when he puts the ball on the floor, it affects Jake when he rushes his 3. I have been more pleased with Jakes defense than Lockett's, though I admit that Trent has rebounded well. But TL was flat out awful in the second half today. I think we CAN agree that having Mayo back playing in rhythm will be a benefit to the team.
Quote from: JWags85 on December 22, 2012, 04:39:39 PM
He was terrible in the second half. He is so tentative offensively (two different times he grabbed a board under the hoop and tried to dribble out, leading to TOs both times) and defensively he looked like a liability.
I understand that. He does actually grab rebounds however. He's the second leading rebounder on the team right now. Mayo can't replace that. Mayo can easily replace what Thomas does with more athleticism and better defense.
Quote from: tower912 on December 22, 2012, 04:42:27 PM
Sultan, I think we are destined to disagree here. You and I haven't agreed in a thing we have seen out of Lockett or Thomas this year. To me, it appears that neither one is used to playing at MU's game speed. It affects Lockett when he puts the ball on the floor, it affects Jake when he rushes his 3. I have been more pleased with Jakes defense than Lockett's, though I admit that Trent has rebounded well. But TL was flat out awful in the second half today. I think we CAN agree that having Mayo back playing in rhythm will be a benefit to the team.
Agreed. I just think right now Lockett gives you more of what you can't get with Mayo with rebounding. Now, if Taylor or Anderson stepped up to do something, they could certainly take minutes away from Lockett.
Quote from: tower912 on December 22, 2012, 03:58:02 PM
Career 39% shooter, shooting 31% right now. If he had 3 more makes for the year, he would be above his career percentage. If he had one more make at the right time, MU would have one more win. He's not far off. Like Trent, he just needs to get acclimated to the speed Buzz wants them to play.
True, but Jake is 3 for 15 (20%) in his last 6 games. He seems to be regressing right now.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 22, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
True, but Jake is 3 for 15 (20%) in his last 6 games. He seems to be regressing right now.
And the majority of those three attempts are wide open looks that are not drained.
Also ...
Our best 3P% is Jamil Wilson with a sparkling 52.2% (12-23)
Vander Blue's 3P% is 30% (10 - 30), essentially the same as Jake.
Who would have guessed that Jake and Vander would be the same from behind the arc????
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 22, 2012, 04:45:20 PM
Agreed. I just think right now Lockett gives you more of what you can't get with Mayo with rebounding. Now, if Taylor or Anderson stepped up to do something, they could certainly take minutes away from Lockett.
This is true, but it won't be Mayo who will make up the difference with rebounding it will be Blue. Vander was an excellent rebounder last year playing the same role as Lockett this year.
Vander has moved more to the 2 with Mayo out, allowing Lockett to be more of a rebounder. With Mayo back, Vander will easily pick up the rebounding slack.
I like Thomas coming in for Mayo. Lockett for Vander.
Quote from: forgetful on December 22, 2012, 04:53:23 PM
This is true, but it won't be Mayo who will make up the difference with rebounding it will be Blue. Vander was an excellent rebounder last year playing the same role as Lockett this year.
Vander has moved more to the 2 with Mayo out, allowing Lockett to be more of a rebounder. With Mayo back, Vander will easily pick up the rebounding slack.
I like Thomas coming in for Mayo. Lockett for Vander.
I think you see Lockett's minutes drop, but I think you see Thomas minutes pretty much fall off the shelf IMO. IOW, you will generally see two of Mayo, Blue and Lockett on the floor at any given time.
I still think Jake can shoot. Everything looks ok, but for whatever reason they aren't going down.
He's competing at this level and is a good role player.
Shoot what? Ducks?
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 22, 2012, 05:02:45 PM
Shoot what? Ducks?
A bit harsh. I think at this point I have been pleasantly suprised by his defense & rebounding. Obviously his shooting has been a disappointment but when someone is a shooter and does not get 20+ minutes they can struggle for extended periods.
If the man is open I still want him to shoot.
For reference, DJO shot 26% from three through his first 11 games in 2010, and then went on to shoot 40% through the rest of the season.
I feel like there was similar panic at the time.
The guy can shoot and he's fairly athletic. But a shooter with no confidence should be dominating at the Rec Center not wasting everybody's time at the BC.
He's passing up shots and, for that reason alone, he should be glued to the bench.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 22, 2012, 04:57:16 PM
I still think Jake can shoot. Everything looks ok, but for whatever reason they aren't going down.
He's competing at this level and is a good role player.
A good role player is a Joe Chapman type. Makes open shots, rebounds, plays tough D. Jake has been a below average role player.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 22, 2012, 04:57:16 PM
I still think Jake can shoot. Everything looks ok, but for whatever reason they aren't going down.
He's competing at this level and is a good role player.
Agreed.
Hmmmm...Stud of the UW-GB Game!?! :D
Quote from: tower912 on December 22, 2012, 04:42:27 PM
Sultan, I think we are destined to disagree here. You and I haven't agreed in a thing we have seen out of Lockett or Thomas this year. To me, it appears that neither one is used to playing at MU's game speed. It affects Lockett when he puts the ball on the floor, it affects Jake when he rushes his 3. I have been more pleased with Jakes defense than Lockett's, though I admit that Trent has rebounded well. But TL was flat out awful in the second half today. I think we CAN agree that having Mayo back playing in rhythm will be a benefit to the team.
+1
I believe that one of the keys to the season is if Buzz can find a way to make both of these guys more productive in what they do. The mark of a truly great coach is to build around the talent he has. My thinking is that Jake has been asked to do more than he is capable of doing at this level and his shot has suffered. It's not only the misses, it's now the fact that his shots are now 'outside the rim' misses.
Hey coach, let's ask Jake to do less but to do what he does well better. If ALL he gives you is B- defense, ball handling and rebounding but can provide A- zone busting from his favorite spots, then learn how to use that effectively. Steve Kerr won multiple championships doing that next to Jordan on the Bulls.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 22, 2012, 05:13:33 PM
I think at this point I have been pleasantly suprised by his defense & rebounding. Obviously his shooting has been a disappointment but when someone is a shooter and does not get 20+ minutes they can struggle for extended periods.
If the man is open I still want him to shoot.
I agree with you. My biggest problem with Jake however is that when he has been open, and I mean like a shooter is open, not the average player, he still defers. I assume this is because he wants to mesh into this team and not make mistakes (Trent does the same). But shooters hurt the team when they pass open looks up and give the ball to people who are going to have to drive to be open. If Jake would just take more attempts, I think his %s would actually go up. Right now a big part of the problem is probably game reps. Let it fly JT!
Quote from: Lazer Sound on December 23, 2012, 10:00:40 AM
I agree with you. My biggest problem with Jake however is that when he has been open, and I mean like a shooter is open, not the average player, he still defers. I assume this is because he wants to mesh into this team and not make mistakes (Trent does the same). But shooters hurt the team when they pass open looks up and give the ball to people who are going to have to drive to be open. If Jake would just take more attempts, I think his %s would actually go up. Right now a big part of the problem is probably game reps. Let it fly JT!
He has had to play the role as the primary back-up guard versus the situational trey launcher. His stats show a highly efficient player because his role has been the exchange guard, whose role is to move the ball rapidly from point to point first and look to shoot second. With Todd back, Jake's value with less minutes may actually make him more effective as a shoot first situational.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 22, 2012, 04:00:12 PM
As Mayo gets up to speed, Thomas should rarely see the floor. Lord knows he won't be playing much next year.
I am not sure that is correct. In the first half against LSU, both Mayo and Thomas were on the floor at the same time. The play I specifically remember was Thomas was on the left wing and Mayo was on the right wing. What happen? Derick Wilson drove down the middle and made a basket. Playing both at once spreads the floor and I suspect we will see a lot of that. Mayo coming back does not take away many minutes from Thomas. Mayo's playing time will mostly come at the expense of Lockett and Taylor.
Thomas' job is to spread the court, make it hard for opponents to double-team Gardner by packing the lane and to make a 3-pointer if an opportunity comes his way. If he can't make wide-open 3s -- and he hasn't been able to do so for weeks -- he simply cannot be given playing time. Especially not after Mayo shakes off the rust, because Mayo has the potential to shoot every bit as well as Thomas (or better, we hope) while also playing D and rebounding.
Quote from: MU82 on December 26, 2012, 01:50:18 PM
Thomas' job is to spread the court, make it hard for opponents to double-team Gardner by packing the lane and to make a 3-pointer if an opportunity comes his way. If he can't make wide-open 3s -- and he hasn't been able to do so for weeks -- he simply cannot be given playing time. Especially not after Mayo shakes off the rust, because Mayo has the potential to shoot every bit as well as Thomas (or better, we hope) while also playing D and rebounding.
It is easy to keep track of one three point shooter. The real spreading of the court comes from having one on both sides and that is what I think is going to happen. I think it also improves Thomas's three point shooting, because the other team also having to worry about Mayo will give Thomas more time to shoot.
Quote from: LA on December 22, 2012, 07:34:22 PM
A good role player is a Joe Chapman type. Makes open shots, rebounds, plays tough D. Jake has been a below average role player.
I think two role players who rose above were Cubillan and Acker. Who would have thought those two would have done as much as they did. Look at the season Marquette had with them at the 1 and 2. Coobie is playing in Venezuela. Where is Junior Mint? Did he go to Europe?
Quote from: bilsu on December 26, 2012, 02:18:13 PM
It is easy to keep track of one three point shooter. The real spreading of the court comes from having one on both sides and that is what I think is going to happen. I think it also improves Thomas's three point shooting, because the other team also having to worry about Mayo will give Thomas more time to shoot.
Jake couldn't have been more wide open in that LSU game and he still missed pretty badly. Is it possible that he actually has too much time to shoot sometimes?
But I do agree with your basic point. The more legit 3-point threats a team has on the perimeter, the better. Problem for us is that no well-coached opponent worries too much about our "threats" right now. If I'm playing against Marquette, I'm packing the lane until they prove they can make a few treys.
Quote from: MU82 on December 26, 2012, 03:13:24 PM
Jake couldn't have been more wide open in that LSU game and he still missed pretty badly. Is it possible that he actually has too much time to shoot sometimes?
But I do agree with your basic point. The more legit 3-point threats a team has on the perimeter, the better. Problem for us is that no well-coached opponent worries too much about our "threats" right now. If I'm playing against Marquette, I'm packing the lane until they prove they can make a few treys.
I agree with you on this. However, there will be a time when a team is collapsing on Gardner and both Thomas and Mayo start hitting threes. At least that is what I am hoping for.
Junior Mint is playing in Europe. I notice he did a stint in Holland. I would think that would be his favorite place! Man loved his weed.
http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?PlayerID=90177
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 23, 2012, 11:11:02 AM
He has had to play the role as the primary back-up guard versus the situational trey launcher. His stats show a highly efficient player because his role has been the exchange guard, whose role is to move the ball rapidly from point to point first and look to shoot second. With Todd back, Jake's value with less minutes may actually make him more effective as a shoot first situational.
+1
My sincere hope is that Jake can assume that new role and be very effective in it. His D and rebounding have been a pleasant surprise; certainly good enough on many days to allow him some minutes. 6-9 points a game would pay huge dividends for guys like DG. One/two threes a half with 40% accuracy.
Come on. A shooter that can't shoot in the pre-season is useless in the Big East. Jake had his chances and showed that he can't shoot under pressure in non-conference games.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 26, 2012, 09:41:26 PM
Come on. A shooter that can't shoot in the pre-season is useless in the Big East. Jake had his chances and showed that he can't shoot under pressure in non-conference games.
Your forgetting that he has a track record of strong 3 point ability. (Many thought that might be his ONLY high D-1 skill.)
Quote from: jsglow on December 26, 2012, 09:47:26 PM
Your forgetting that he has a track record of strong 3 point ability. (Many thought that might be his ONLY high D-1 skill.)
Still waiting for his high D-1 skills to warrant conference playing time.
Quote from: jsglow on December 26, 2012, 09:47:26 PM
Your forgetting that he has a track record of strong 3 point ability. (Many thought that might be his ONLY high D-1 skill.)
If you go back and look at his statistics, he had one good year as a 3 point shooter. His freshman year where he played limited minutes. (44%). His last year at USD he shot about 35%, which is roughly Jae's percentage from last year and JFB's from the year before. So while that was a threat, that is hardly a top level three point threat.
Now that he has stepped up in class, it isn't rocket science to see why his percentage has dropped even further.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 27, 2012, 07:47:25 AM
If you go back and look at his statistics, he had one good year as a 3 point shooter. His freshman year where he played limited minutes. (44%). His last year at USD he shot about 35%, which is roughly Jae's percentage from last year and JFB's from the year before. So while that was a threat, that is hardly a top level three point threat.
Now that he has stepped up in class, it isn't rocket science to see why his percentage has dropped even further.
Great point, Sultan.
It's hard to see how Jake qualifies as a Big East-level player. Just because we want something to be true doesn't mean it will be true.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 27, 2012, 07:47:25 AM
If you go back and look at his statistics, he had one good year as a 3 point shooter. His freshman year where he played limited minutes. (44%). His last year at USD he shot about 35%, which is roughly Jae's percentage from last year and JFB's from the year before. So while that was a threat, that is hardly a top level three point threat.
Now that he has stepped up in class, it isn't rocket science to see why his percentage has dropped even further.
That's not exactly fair.
Even 35% for a high volume shooter is pretty good. He took almost 250 3pters as a soph. Some people act like Mayo is a "shooter" because he made 30 out of 100 last year.
% is a great measure, but volume needs to be considered as players usually become less efficient when their usage goes up.
With this said, Jake hasn't taken or made many open looks this year. It could be the "speed of the game" as you have described several times, or maybe some bad luck.
Either way, I think he's adequate defensively and athletically, but if he can't make shots, his value is greatly reduced.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 27, 2012, 08:41:21 AM
That's not exactly fair.
Even 35% for a high volume shooter is pretty good. He took almost 250 3pters as a soph. Some people act like Mayo is a "shooter" because he made 30 out of 100 last year.
% is a great measure, but volume needs to be considered as players usually become less efficient when their usage goes up.
With this said, Jake hasn't taken or made many open looks this year. It could be the "speed of the game" as you have described several times, or maybe some bad luck.
Either way, I think he's adequate defensively and athletically, but if he can't make shots, his value is greatly reduced.
Couple things. I'm not trying to be unfair, but I have always thought that people's expectations for his shooting ability exceeded what he is capable of doing. On the other hand, his defense and rebounding is better than I thought it was.
Also, while comparisons to Mayo are valid, Mayo (like DJO who was a slightly better shooter) is a dual threat. He can take it to the basket as well. Jake hasn't shown that ability.
I certainly expected Jake to shoot better from the 3 than Vander - but as thrilled as we've been with Vander's performance this year...they are virtually identical from the 3 - Jake is 9 of 29, Vander 10 of 30.
Certainly would like both Vander and Jake to step up their 3 points shooting percentages as it would bode well for the team moving forward. Interesting to look at Jake, Vander, Trent and Junior side by side in all categories:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=junior-cadougan&p1=jake-thomas&p2=vander-blue&p3=trent-lockett
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 27, 2012, 07:47:25 AM
If you go back and look at his statistics, he had one good year as a 3 point shooter. His freshman year where he played limited minutes. (44%). His last year at USD he shot about 35%, which is roughly Jae's percentage from last year and JFB's from the year before. So while that was a threat, that is hardly a top level three point threat.
Now that he has stepped up in class, it isn't rocket science to see why his percentage has dropped even further.
He played the same amount of minutes his freshman and sophomore years at 33MPG. He is two shots made away from being an above average trey shooter percentage wise this season. The part where I agree is that with the TJT and Todd situations, he became the primary 2G off the bench which does not fit his ability at this level. He is a talented situational--a zone stretcher, a end of half shot from deep, if down double digits put him in to launch. He has been forced to play roles for the good of the team...and he has done it efficiently. Not only has his FG% suffered so has his FT%...he is forcing it as he adapts. Remember DJO's slow shooting starts? Jake will be fine as Todd returns to form. Have appreciated his team contributions to date.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/jake-thomas
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 27, 2012, 08:53:45 AM
He played the same amount of minutes his freshman and sophomore years at 33MPG. He is two shots made away from being an above average trey shooter percentage wise this season. The part where I agree is that with the TJT and Todd situations, he became the primary 2G off the bench which does not fit his ability at this level. He is a talented situational--a zone stretcher, a end of half shot from deep, if down double digits put him in to launch. He has been forced to play roles for the good of the team...and he has done it efficiently. Not only has his FG% suffered so has his FT%...he is forcing it as he adapts. Remember DJO's slow shooting starts? Jake will be fine as Todd returns to form. Have appreciated his team contributions to date.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/jake-thomas
Thanks for the correction on the minutes....I also got the percentages off a bit. Blah...
But I agree with your synopsis about his role and how he should be utilized moving forward.
I think Buzz's offense encourages always looking for the player with a better shot. Whether true or not I can see Thomas getting the ball and thinking about whether he should pass it before he shoots it. At South Dakota I suspect he was thinking shoot first, pass second. Having to think first about passing results in less shots and therefore in theory hinders a rhythm shooter from getting in rhythm. Having watched him many times in the pro am, I have seen him miss several shots in a row and then all of sudden he goes off hits three threes in less than a minute. He is definitely a rhythm shooter, who just might not ever get enough shots to get in rhythm during an actual game.
Thomas is of no use if he's not making deep jumpers. At this point, he's not even a threat to pump fake and every defense knows it.
If people truly believe Thomas is a worthy role player and has earned credits with his "defense" and/or "rebounding", it shows just how low the bar has dropped relative to team expectations.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 27, 2012, 09:34:41 AM
Thomas is of no use if he's not making deep jumpers. At this point, he's not even a threat to pump fake and every defense knows it.
If people truly believe Thomas is a worthy role player and has earned credits with his "defense" and/or "rebounding", it shows just how low the bar has dropped relative to team expectations.
Well we will all see how much time Thomas's playing time drops with the return of Mayo and start of Big East. Buzz knows more than any of us. My prediction is that his court time does not fall greatly from the time we were playing without Mayo.
Sultan,
You're not being unfair, I just want to make sure we are accurate with what we are talking about.
A high-volume shooter with a decent % could probably be more efficient in a reduced role, so going strictly by the % isn't telling Jake's whole story. We also have to account for better competition, which I think we have.
Mayo and Thomas have nothing to do with each other... I only bring it up because some posters love Mayo as a "shooter", but then on the same message board, people claim that Jake Thomas isn't much of a "shooter".
Todd's ability to put the ball on the floor makes him a far better player, but I'm skeptical of him as a "shooter".
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 27, 2012, 09:34:41 AM
Thomas is of no use if he's not making deep jumpers. At this point, he's not even a threat to pump fake and every defense knows it.
If people truly believe Thomas is a worthy role player and has earned credits with his "defense" and/or "rebounding", it shows just how low the bar has dropped relative to team expectations.
I think what most folks are saying is that IF Jake can be a 35%+ guy from 3 that his defense/rebounding is 'good enough' to warrant a few minutes in specific match-up situations. I think most here recognize that he's a walk-on and has to date been asked to play a role above his ability level. We're simply hopeful that a reduced role will help his shot. If he can't hit at least 35%, then he'll revert to end of the bench walk-on status in BEast play. Of course everyone agrees that Vander/JWil/Mayo at 30-32% are FAR superior options. But if Jake could hit 40%.... Say adios to the 2/3 zone.
An analogous argument (albeit at a totally different level) was DG's offensive prowess offset (at least in prior years) by his defensive liability. The latter has markedly improved this year so what we only really worry about now is how many minutes he can be effective. We'd all love it if that number could go from 20 to 25 without a dropoff. So Jake could earn 8-10 a game depending on the situation or zero. We'll see.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 27, 2012, 09:58:11 AM
Sultan,
You're not being unfair, I just want to make sure we are accurate with what we are talking about.
A high-volume shooter with a decent % could probably be more efficient in a reduced role, so going strictly by the % isn't telling Jake's whole story. We also have to account for better competition, which I think we have.
Mayo and Thomas have nothing to do with each other... I only bring it up because some posters love Mayo as a "shooter", but then on the same message board, people claim that Jake Thomas isn't much of a "shooter".
Todd's ability to put the ball on the floor makes him a far better player, but I'm skeptical of him as a "shooter".
OK, agreed on all of this.
IMO this isn't about Jake as it is about Scooper's unrealistic expectations.