3 games in 3 days, we've got to see them in action against high major teams (alright, MSU is bad) on a neutral court. What do we know about our team?
1. It is going to be a different guy every night.
2. Any of 5 guys can get double digits in any game.
3. Juan is for real. A glue guy, not a star.
4. Jake is for real. See above.
5. Junior, Vander, and Otule have all improved their offensive games
6. Our defensive rotations got a little better every game.
7. We will go 9 deep most nights.
8. This team has a high ceiling. If everybody is healthy, we will be better in March than we are in November.
How surprising is any of this?
Quote from: tower912 on November 21, 2012, 07:04:58 PM
How surprising is any of this?
These two ....
3. Juan is for real. A glue guy, not a star.
4. Jake is for real. See above.
Quote from: tower912 on November 21, 2012, 07:04:58 PM
3 games in 3 days, we've got to see them in action against high major teams (alright, MSU is bad) on a neutral court. What do we know about our team?
1. It is going to be a different guy every night.
2. Any of 5 guys can get double digits in any game.
3. Juan is for real. A glue guy, not a star yet
4. Jake is for real. See above.
5. Junior, Vander, and Otule have all improved their offensive games
6. Our defensive rotations got a little better every game.
7. We will go 9 deep most nights.
8. This team has a high ceiling. If everybody is healthy, we will be better in March than we are in November.
How surprising is any of this?
Fixed #3 for you. Juan is a glue guy now, but the way he's realizing his upside is incredible. I think he's going to be a stud. Might have the most upside of anyone on the team right now.
There was healthy discussion about both. I thought Jake would get spot minutes but changed that after Mayo was declared ineligible. Look, he is an experienced D1 performer with a career scoring average prior to this year over 12 PPG. Juan is just making the natural progression from freshman to sophomore. A pleasant surprise, but not a huge one. The kid was one of the highest ranked players on the west coast. He has to have SOME game.
Bear with me for a minute....probably the best thing that happened to use was to lose to Butler.
Butler goes on to win tournament. Good for the rpi.
More importantly, (1) the score of the Butler game did not reflect who the better team was. With that said, congrats to Butler for finding a way to win (2) we came out swinging, and showed that we are a team to be reckoned with. The announcers were in awe of our team's toughness. We found out who will replace Jae and DJO.....it will be Ox, Vander, Wilson, CO, Juan, Jake..... You get the drift.
Gonna be a fun season ;D ;D ;D. Bring on becky.
I've been thrilled by Jake's play. Against BCS teams he can still scrap and impact the box score with rebounds, assists, etc. And his D has been reasonably good. I like scrappy. And his shot will fall.
I've also been pleased with the work D. Wilson has done. That was a great drive to the hoop today. And he's been so very careful with the ball while continuing to play great D.
And how 'bout big Chris with the soft right and left baby hook.
You can tell that a whole bunch of Chris's activity before he was allowed contact was to receive a pass, turn and hook with either hand. He still looks like a Kareem late in his career going up and down the floor. The knee is clearly not 100%
One more thing: Steve Taylor is going to b amazing. You can just see the oozing potential.
Quote from: MUCam on November 21, 2012, 07:34:25 PM
One more thing: Steve Taylor is going to b amazing. You can just see the oozing potential.
Same with Ferguson!
We have a traditional so I'm happy.
All kidding aside, it's early for us and early for everyone else. Not sure what we have yet, except the known quantities.
- Energized coach who will keep his guys playing hard and with passion. High motor.
- A team with talented pieces that buy into what the coach is saying.
- A team with some weaknesses that may make us look rather ugly during some games. I expect some head scratching losses this year, but it won't be because of a lack of effort.
Unknowns for me are guard play if Jr. gets in trouble or has an off night. Consistent shooting against teams that will zone us up.
I expected 2-1 in this tournament and a 3rd place finish. We ended 2-1 and 5th place, but that's simply a result of how the bracketing works. Hard to argue we weren't the 3rd best team in this tournament if not 2nd best, but the most talented team didn't even play for the title and that's college hoops.
I really wish Junior hadn't come back so soon from his injury and still had that extra year of eligibility left!
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on November 21, 2012, 07:08:26 PM
These two ....
3. Juan is for real. A glue guy, not a star.
4. Jake is for real. See above.
Jake Thomas played 22 minutes yesterday and didn't score a point. Vander does this as the board explodes. I honestly don't see why people are excited about him. He's simply a guy out there. He's smart, generally in the right place, but that's about it.
What is exciting about Juan is the progression from last year to this year. His minutes have come back down to earth the last couple of games, but he at least has shown why he is worthy of a scholarship.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2012, 07:22:00 AM
Jake Thomas played 22 minutes yesterday and didn't score a point. Vander does this as the board explodes. I honestly don't see why people are excited about him. He's simply a guy out there. He's smart, generally in the right place, but that's about it.
What is exciting about Juan is the progression from last year to this year. His minutes have come back down to earth the last couple of games, but he at least has shown why he is worthy of a scholarship.
Folks are excited Sultan because Jake has demonstrated himself to be a 'real' basketball player, especially in the wake of Todd's departure. He can give us minutes and we don't collapse. That's huge.
Quote from: jsglow on November 22, 2012, 07:27:45 AM
Folks are excited Sultan because Jake has demonstrated himself to be a 'real' basketball player, especially in the wake of Todd's departure. He can give us minutes and we don't collapse. That's huge.
Right. Like I said, he's a guy out there. I'm not sure why you put the "for real" label on him based on that.
Let me also add that I really am starting to like this team. If we can just get enough outside shooting to keep teams honest, we will be just fine. I also think we are going to able to play at multiple tempos this year...this team can play the slow down game when it has to.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2012, 07:31:48 AM
Right. Like I said, he's a guy out there. I'm not sure why you put the "for real" label on him based on that.
Look at the stat line Sultan. He had a handful of rebounds, some assists and even a block. Sure he's 'a guy'. My point is Rob Frozena isn't (no disrespect intended).
Long before your time, Al used to have the 'scrambled eggs' 2nd team squad. None of them could play. They're sole purpose was to give the 5 'real' ballplayers coach had a chance to catch their breath for 90 seconds. They'd come in as a group; all 5 at once. If my very vague memory from my youth serves, Dave Delsman was the leader of that group for awhile. If Jake is the reincarnation of Dave Delsman, life's pretty good.
Have a great Thanksgiving Sultan.
First of all, I would like to thank you for assuming I am younger than I actually am. But the Al years were not "long before my time." I'm 45, so I have memories of the '77 championship.
But second, I did see the boxscore. He didn't play 90 seconds. He played 22 minutes. A back up #2 guard who goes scoreless and is so-so on defense doesn't meet my definition of being "for real." It's like a reverse Vander...we are judging players versus our expectations and not on what exactly they are doing on the court.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on November 21, 2012, 07:08:26 PM
These two ....
3. Juan is for real. A glue guy, not a star.
4. Jake is for real. See above.
I am shocked that Thomas is getting minutes...a real surprise. I am not surprised about Anderson.
I think the praise for Thomas is based on expectations. Many (certainly not all) did not think that he would be anything other than a low minute spot-up shooter (and, post loss of Mayo, maybe a medium minute spot-up shooter/defensive liability). It has turned out that he is a good all around player, who is getting minutes even though he isn't hitting the 3. A reversal of expectations for many.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2012, 07:22:00 AM
Jake Thomas played 22 minutes yesterday and didn't score a point. Vander does this as the board explodes. I honestly don't see why people are excited about him. He's simply a guy out there. He's smart, generally in the right place, but that's about it.
Maybe because Vander was a 5 star recruit...,and we've had 2 years to games to judge Vander by...Jake...5 games. And if you can't see that Jake was impacting the game without scoring in the way of rebounds, assists, loose balls, spacing the floor and yes, even D - I don't know what to tell you.
Jake will be a solid contributor, and simply acknowledge, your bearish and negative view on him over the last year was wrong. It's okay Sultan....I'm being proven wrong in my view on Blue this year. Nobody bats 100% on prognostications. ;D
Jake Thomas had a key offensive rebound and what should have been the game winning three point play against Butler! The kid does a lot more than fill minutes!
I like this team - a lot. Much of what I see in terms of "negatives" seems to be things that will work themselves out and I see potential for quite a bit of improvement between now and March. It's the never say die attitude. The world loves an underdog, and I think our scrappy play and work ethic will pay off. We'll be in and out of the top 25 over the course of the season, and will have an opportunity to make some noise in March.
Quote from: tower912 on November 21, 2012, 07:20:05 PM
You can tell that a whole bunch of Chris's activity before he was allowed contact was to receive a pass, turn and hook with either hand. He still looks like a Kareem late in his career going up and down the floor. The knee is clearly not 100%
CO was already working on that left pivot before the injury. I remember seeing it in the Pro-Am last year and saying "whoa, where'd that come from?" But for sure he looks like a better player than he was a year ago and looks like he could be in for a fantastic next couple years.
Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2012, 09:19:01 AM
Maybe because Vander was a 5 star recruit...,and we've had 2 years to games to judge Vander by...Jake...5 games. And if you can't see that Jake was impacting the game without scoring in the way of rebounds, assists, loose balls, spacing the floor and yes, even D - I don't know what to tell you.
Jake will be a solid contributor, and simply acknowledge, your bearish and negative view on him over the last year was wrong. It's okay Sultan....I'm being proven wrong in my view on Blue this year. Nobody bats 100% on prognostications. ;D
I have yet to be proven wrong about Jake Thomas. He's a step slow on defense (don't mistake hustle for quickness) and cannot create his own shot. Heady player, but that's about it. Pretty much what I expected.
Quote from: jsglow on November 22, 2012, 08:12:35 AM
Look at the stat line Sultan. He had a handful of rebounds, some assists and even a block. Sure he's 'a guy'. My point is Rob Frozena isn't (no disrespect intended).
Long before your time, Al used to have the 'scrambled eggs' 2nd team squad. None of them could play. They're sole purpose was to give the 5 'real' ballplayers coach had a chance to catch their breath for 90 seconds. They'd come in as a group; all 5 at once. If my very vague memory from my youth serves, Dave Delsman was the leader of that group for awhile. If Jake is the reincarnation of Dave Delsman, life's pretty good.
Have a great Thanksgiving Sultan.
Just can't let this slide. Back to Warrior Hoops 101. The essence of your post is basically correct. However, Al's "scrambled eggs" unit was circa 1965-68. As he recruited more talented players, there was no need for eggs.
Dave Delsman, was never part of that group. In fact, he played in the early 70's. coming out of Waukesha South, #23 went from walk-on to literally first guard off the bench. He not only
earned a scholarship, but was a valuable contributor for some extremely talented and successful Warrior teams.
While Jake cannot create his own shot teams have to guard him on the outside and that stretches the defense. (something of value) He makes few mistakes and plays well within the team concept.
Quote from: romey on November 22, 2012, 09:43:22 AM
I like this team - a lot. Much of what I see in terms of "negatives" seems to be things that will work themselves out and I see potential for quite a bit of improvement between now and March. It's the never say die attitude. The world loves an underdog, and I think our scrappy play and work ethic will pay off. We'll be in and out of the top 25 over the course of the season, and will have an opportunity to make some noise in March.
Agreed. Well said.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2012, 09:50:04 AM
I have yet to be proven wrong about Jake Thomas. He's a step slow on defense (don't mistake hustle for quickness) and cannot create his own shot. Heady player, but that's about it. Pretty much what I expected.
Let's just put it this way - if Jake continues to play as he has this season...a 9 point game here and there, 3-5 rebounds per game, 2-4 assists per game, 1-2 steals and limits his turnovers to 0-1 per game as he has done thus far - that will be as good/better than what Vander produced his first 2 years...yet you've banged the drum for Vander's performance for 2 years...yet can't do it for Jake?
Your inability to ever acknowledge being wrong about something is pretty funny!
Quote from: Ners on November 22, 2012, 12:49:12 PM
Let's just put it this way - if Jake continues to play as he has this season...a 9 point game here and there, 3-5 rebounds per game, 2-4 assists per game, 1-2 steals and limits his turnovers to 0-1 per game as he has done thus far - that will be as good/better than what Vander produced his first 2 years...yet you've banged the drum for Vander's performance for 2 years...yet can't do it for Jake?!
Yet again, Ners, you fail to understand that defense is half of basketball. Thomas is a sub-standard defender, and played more than half a game yesterday and failed to score. You think that makes him a good back up guard?
Disagree about Jake's defense. IMO, he has shown himself to be a knowledgeable defender that understands angles and positioning and anticipates well. He has done a decent job of staying with his man and rebounding. He hasn't found his shot yet, but neither has Trent. Sultan, he has been the exact same kind of 'there's-more-to-basketball-than-scoring' guy that you defend when it is Vander.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2012, 08:22:02 AM
It's like a reverse Vander...we are judging players versus our expectations and not on what exactly they are doing on the court.
At 45 you lived through the Dukiet years. Now THAT'S bad basketball. I'll absolutely agree with the statement you made above. Of course I expect VB to be one of the best players on the team, and he is. Of course I'm pleasantly surprised that Jake is serviceable. He is as well. And I also hope that Ferguson continues to grow and grabs some of Jake's minutes. Cause that means we'll get better. And next year if Jake's role is reduced to that occasional walk-on sharpshooter, I'm absolutely fine with that. Cause it'll mean we're darn good
I think many of us were simply concerned that with the loss of Mayo that Jake wouldn't be a serviceable player and we'd have a black hole after Vander. You have to admit Sultan that Jake's been better than that, especially as it pertains to the non-shooting aspects of his game.
Quote from: tower912 on November 22, 2012, 08:42:36 PM
Disagree about Jake's defense. IMO, he has shown himself to be a knowledgeable defender that understands angles and positioning and anticipates well. He has done a decent job of staying with his man and rebounding. He hasn't found his shot yet, but neither has Trent. Sultan, he has been the exact same kind of 'there's-more-to-basketball-than-scoring' guy that you defend when it is Vander.
Sorry, but I disagree - he is simply "a guy" who doesn't bring anything special to the floor. He played more than half the game, and his Roland Rating was -12. On top of that, he had the lowest ORt of anyone who played double digit minutes. That's not very good for a back up guard on a BCS team.
OTOH, Vander had a pretty poor offensive performance....yet had an ORt higher than Jake's and a RR of +26.
I'm not going to pretend to see something that isn't there.
Quote from: jsglow on November 22, 2012, 08:46:39 PM
I think many of us were simply concerned that with the loss of Mayo that Jake wouldn't be a serviceable player and we'd have a black hole after Vander. You have to admit Sultan that Jake's been better than that, especially as it pertains to the non-shooting aspects of his game.
He's been serviceable...no more than that.
Destined to disagree, I guess. IMO, he has held his own everywhere on the floor. He hasn't hit many shots but he hasn't forced many either. He isn't Todd Mayo, but he certainly isn't hurting us.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 22, 2012, 08:32:00 PM
Yet again, Ners, you fail to understand that defense is half of basketball. Thomas is a sub-standard defender, and played more than half a game yesterday and failed to score. You think that makes him a good back up guard?
You keep saying he's a sub-standard defender. It takes more than you saying it repeatedly to make it true. In my observation, his defense has been fine. His man does not routinely get by him, at least any more frequently than our other guards. What are you seeing that I am not?
Regarding his scoring (or lack thereof in your view), you are taking the results from
one game and using them to indict his offensive ability? Come on. Jake did play over a half of basketball in the last game and didn't score. So what? How many times did Mayo or Blue or Jamil or DJO or Jae go scoreless in a half of basketball? Hell, Jamil didn't score against Butler...I guess he's no good either.
Jake went 3-3 from three in 10 minutes in a game earlier this year. Why aren't you using that game as your sample? Oh, because it doesn't support what you've been saying since Jake arrived as a walk-on. And lord knows, walk-ons CAN'T be any good, right?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 22, 2012, 09:06:33 PM
You keep saying he's a sub-standard defender. It takes more than you saying it repeatedly to make it true. In my observation, his defense has been fine. His man does not routinely get by him, at least any more frequently than our other guards. What are you seeing that I am not?
For example, yesterday he was repeatedly attacked off the dribble which caused breakdowns in the team defense.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 22, 2012, 09:06:33 PM
Regarding his scoring (or lack thereof in your view), you are taking the results from one game and using them to indict his offensive ability? Come on. Jake did play over a half of basketball in the last game and didn't score. So what? How many times did Mayo or Blue or Jamil or DJO or Jae go scoreless in a half of basketball? Hell, Jamil didn't score against Butler...I guess he's no good either.
Jake went 3-3 from three in 10 minutes in a game earlier this year. Why aren't you using that game as your sample? Oh, because it doesn't support what you've been saying since Jake arrived as a walk-on. And lord knows, walk-ons CAN'T be any good, right?
Fine. For the season, Jake Thomas has a RR of -28. Which isn't the worst on the team...that goes to Derrick Wilson. (Not including single digit players Taylor and Ferguson.)
Again, he isn't necessarily bad. But back to the original poster, I am not going to say he's the "real deal." He's serviceable....which is pretty much what I expected.
I agree with a lot of what Sultan is saying about Thomas. If Vander plays 22 minutes and goes scoreless, he is pilloried, regardless of how well he plays defense. Thomas gets a pass, largely because so little was expected of him compared to the great expectations on Vander but also possibly because of other factors.
Where I disagree with Sultan is his saying Thomas is "just a guy." Well, he was "just a guy" who was in the right place at the right time to make what should have been the decisive play against Butler. That shows an intangible level that raises him over the "just a guy" tag. When I think of somebody being "just a guy," I think more of Erik Williams. Or Maurice Acker when he was a freshman. Or Cubillan when he fell out of favor and just got to play a couple minutes a game. Or Joe Fulce when hurting and able to do little more than take up space on the court.
"Just a guy" has little to no value. Thomas has real value. Game in and game out, his value will be nowhere near as high as that of Vander or Junior or Jamil or Gardner. That doesn't mean that he should be disrespected as a basketball player.
Quote from: MU82 on November 22, 2012, 09:27:27 PM
Where I disagree with Sultan is his saying Thomas is "just a guy." Well, he was "just a guy" who was in the right place at the right time to make what should have been the decisive play against Butler. That shows an intangible level that raises him over the "just a guy" tag.
That is a fair point.
When you look at the head to head comparison between Jake and Vander - about the only one Vander comes out better than Jake is in Roland rating. Rebounds, Steals, Assist to Turnover, Offensive Rating, Field Goal percentage, Effective FG Percentage -Jake fares better than Vander in all categories.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jake-thomas&p1=vander-blue
Jake also provides a true threat from the 3 that the team otherwise lacks, which helps create spacing..that greatly helps Vander slash to the basket more effectively, There is on denying the value of spacing the floor with a sharpshooter like Jake...Steve Novak is basically "just a guy," yet he plays in the NBA due to his sharpshooting/floor spacing value.
But to hell with facts and reality....God forbid a player actually prove a Scooper wrong - as Vander is doing to me this year...and Jake Thomas is proving Sultan wrong!
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Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 23, 2012, 06:27:32 AM
.
Thanks. It had been an interesting discussion and is now fully vetted.