We are now in the post Joe Pa era and Head coaches are now held responsible for everything.
See Bobby Petrino. Schools now have zero tolerance for off-field (court) problems ... even if they are winning.
Buzz has no reason to feel jilted or look for the a new job. He should be standing on Wisconsin Avenue apologizing to passerbys.
Since the Florida game in the Sweet Sixteen ....
* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
(did I forget anything?)
The list above is simply unacceptable, especially coming in the wake of all the in-season suspension, Newbill, sexual assault (harassment), half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar (added later), Vander fight/court appearances, etc.
Maybe this is why Collins, and Lundy left and why Benford was desperate of the HC job? Are they jumping ship before Buzz sinks it? Hopefully Chew and Wainwright will help get things under control.
So please stop the LW wants us to be SLU. Buzz has to get control of this program. He knows this and should feel lucky he was not hammered harder.
The only reason he is still around is the team is doing well and has good recruits coming. The administration has been more than fair and he has to do his part ... STOP GIVING THEM A REASON TO DRAFT FRIDAY NIGHT PRESS RELEASES.
If Buzz feels the administration is being unfairly hard on him, go ahead and leave and try this crap when your team is 15 and 15 at another school that just views you as a hired gun. If he leaves, he will be a high-major D1 coach for two years and on a fast track to Lamar.
So, Buzz, get control of your team and your program and cut the off-court crap now!!
If you're toying with leaving, that means you don't get it and you will destroy this program. So leave now, before midnight madness.
I think one also has to wonder of Benford and/or Collins were involved any any questionable stuff that hasn't come to light and were told that they needed to go.
Saw Fleet was advertised on sale this week at Walgreens.
Benford got a pretty nice head coaching job. I don't think him taking the North Texas job is any indication at all that he was pushed out. The Aki to Memphis job you could probably make a case for looking at it from our distance. However, if he got an Associate Head Coach title at Memphis and wasn't going to get that at Marquette, then it's definitely possible he took the job on his own.
Benford has been trying for a head coaching job his entire life and now when he gets one people jump to the conclusion that he might have been told to leave?
He didn't leave for an assistant job at Florida Gulf Coast.......He is now a D-1 head coach.
wow....
Quote from: MuMark on August 26, 2012, 05:24:11 PM
Benford has been trying for a head coaching job his entire life and now when he gets one people jump to the conclusion that he might have been told to leave?
He didn't leave for an assistant job at Florida Gulf Coast.......He is now a D-1 head coach.
wow....
Yeah, that's exactly what I did. ::)
Our best players under Buzz, Jae, DJO. and Jimmy Butler were all JUCO's; and few programs above MU paid little attention to these recruits because they were JUCO's (Glad they were with us). But Buzz if you want to head to Texas, go. KO complained because he didn't have a parking spot. I feel like Buzz is whining now because he has to uphold a standard in which, perhaps, he can't keep. Buzz, is Tark, Spoon, Huggs, etc. Alot of other coaches would love $2 mil. We could do better than coaches who allow their assistants to lie and cheat repeatedly.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on August 26, 2012, 04:55:09 PM
We are now in the post Joe Pa era and Head coaches are now held responsible for everything.
See Bobby Petrino. Schools now have zero tolerance for off-field (court) problems ... even if they are winning.
Buzz has no reason to feel jilted or look for the a new job. He should be standing on Wisconsin Avenue apologizing to passerbys.
Since the Florida game in the Sweet Sixteen ....
* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
(did I forget anything?)
The list above is simply unacceptable, especially coming in the wake of all the in-season suspension, Newbill, sexual assault (harassment), half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar (added later), Vander fight/court appearances, etc.
Maybe this is why Collins, and Lundy left and why Benford was desperate of the HC job? Are they jumping ship before Buzz sinks it? Hopefully Chew and Wainwright will help get things under control.
So please stop the LW wants us to be SLU. Buzz has to get control of this program. He knows this and should feel lucky he was not hammered harder.
The only reason he is still around is the team is doing well and has good recruits coming. The administration has been more than fair and he has to do his part ... STOP GIVING THEM A REASON TO DRAFT FRIDAY NIGHT PRESS RELEASES.
If Buzz feels the administration is being unfairly hard on him, go ahead and leave and try this crap when your team is 15 and 15 at another school that just views you as a hired gun. If he leaves, he will be a high-major D1 coach for two years and on a fast track to Lamar.
So, Buzz, get control of your team and your program and cut the off-court crap now!!
If you're toying with leaving, that means you don't get it and you will destroy this program. So leave now, before midnight madness.
I think you are being too hard on him.
Certainly Buzz needs to be accountable, but he's had good success, and he's not directly responsible for all of this stuff.
Tighten everything up, and win some games. Buzz can stay as long as he likes.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on August 26, 2012, 04:55:09 PM
We are now in the post Joe Pa era and Head coaches are now held responsible for everything.
See Bobby Petrino. Schools now have zero tolerance for off-field (court) problems ... even if they are winning.
Buzz has no reason to feel jilted or look for the a new job. He should be standing on Wisconsin Avenue apologizing to passerbys.
Since the Florida game in the Sweet Sixteen ....
* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
(did I forget anything?)
The list above is simply unacceptable, especially coming in the wake of all the in-season suspension, Newbill, sexual assault (harassment), half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar (added later), Vander fight/court appearances, etc.
Maybe this is why Collins, and Lundy left and why Benford was desperate of the HC job? Are they jumping ship before Buzz sinks it? Hopefully Chew and Wainwright will help get things under control.
So please stop the LW wants us to be SLU. Buzz has to get control of this program. He knows this and should feel lucky he was not hammered harder.
The only reason he is still around is the team is doing well and has good recruits coming. The administration has been more than fair and he has to do his part ... STOP GIVING THEM A REASON TO DRAFT FRIDAY NIGHT PRESS RELEASES.
If Buzz feels the administration is being unfairly hard on him, go ahead and leave and try this crap when your team is 15 and 15 at another school that just views you as a hired gun. If he leaves, he will be a high-major D1 coach for two years and on a fast track to Lamar.
So, Buzz, get control of your team and your program and cut the off-court crap now!!
If you're toying with leaving, that means you don't get it and you will destroy this program. So leave now, before midnight madness.
That's some nice plagiarism. At least say "Having read the most recent entry on Paint Touches..." before you go ripping off their work.
This thread is lame. Period.
Quote from: real chili 83 on August 26, 2012, 06:49:21 PM
This thread is lame. Period.
Double lame. No point in arguing either. Double Period.
Quote from: Knight Commission on August 26, 2012, 06:19:17 PM
Our best players under Buzz, Jae, DJO. and Jimmy Butler were all JUCO's; and few programs above MU paid little attention to these recruits because they were JUCO's (Glad they were with us). But Buzz if you want to head to Texas, go. KO complained because he didn't have a parking spot. I feel like Buzz is whining now because he has to uphold a standard in which, perhaps, he can't keep. Buzz, is Tark, Spoon, Huggs, etc. Alot of other coaches would love $2 mil. We could do better than coaches who allow their assistants to lie and cheat repeatedly.
How is Buzz "whining?" Do we even have evidence that he is complaining?
Buzz, just wants the support of the people that hired him and they are both gone. Monarch was fired for giving a recruit a ride home and a t shirt. Kentucky players drive Cadillacs. I would prefers for the MU team to not get into trouble, but which kids do u think buzz brought in was a bad kid? We're not Kansas or IU that has there pick. We are Playing on a aircraft carrier this year. Let's bring back the Jim deane days where he would get hammered and the players were slow and tall.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on August 26, 2012, 08:28:20 PM
Buzz, just wants the support of the people that hired him and they are both gone. Monarch was fired for giving a recruit a ride home and a t shirt.
Wrong. Monarch got in trouble for repeatedly lying.
And how do you know what Buzz "just wants?"
Quote from: kmwtrucks on August 26, 2012, 08:28:20 PM
Buzz, just wants the support of the people that hired him and they are both gone. Monarch was fired for giving a recruit a ride home and a t shirt. Kentucky players drive Cadillacs. I would prefers for the MU team to not get into trouble, but which kids do u think buzz brought in was a bad kid? We're not Kansas or IU that has there pick. We are Playing on a aircraft carrier this year. Let's bring back the Jim deane days where he would get hammered and the players were slow and tall.
WRONG!!!!! He was fired because he lied about what he did. The NCAA will come down with wrath of a 1,000 suns over lying and MU knows that. You can't keep liars on your staff.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on August 26, 2012, 08:08:35 PM
How is Buzz "whining?" Do we even have evidence that he is complaining?
His threats to go to an inferior program like SMU. His mouth piece in Gary Parrish. (just like Crean's bitch DeCoursey). The lack of the "ah shucks how glad I am to be at MU", like we heard before. Its strained we all know it and feel it. The writing was on the wall when KO started bitching about his parking spot; this is no different.
Quote from: Knight Commission on August 26, 2012, 08:36:49 PM
His threats to go to an inferior program like SMU. His mouth piece in Gary Parrish. (just like Crean's bitch DeCoursey). The lack of the "ah shucks how glad I am to be at MU", like we heard before. Its strained we all know it and feel it. The writing was on the wall when KO started bitching about his parking spot; this is no different.
Although "Gary Parrish" and "mouthpiece" can be found quite often in the same sentence, I don't think it's applicable in this situation.
Quote from: Knight Commission on August 26, 2012, 08:36:49 PM
His threats to go to an inferior program like SMU. His mouth piece in Gary Parrish. (just like Crean's bitch DeCoursey). The lack of the "ah shucks how glad I am to be at MU", like we heard before. Its strained we all know it and feel it. The writing was on the wall when KO started bitching about his parking spot; this is no different.
When did he make a "threat" to go to SMU??? How do we know that Parrish is his "mouthpiece?"
Don't write off assumptions as facts.
Beat me to it, Sultan, was wondering the same about Buzz's so called whining. I see no evidence of that, but then again there is no real evidence of strife between him and the administration but that isn't stopping people saying that there is a "definitive rift". It's all speculation. It's fan fiction.
It's not like MU had a sterling record until Buzz came along and then everything went to the sh!tter. If anything, it seems like Buzz is insisting on holding the players to a higher standard, and holds himself to the same standard - hence all of those game suspensions last year for violations of team rules. Those violations weren't imposed by the NCAA. I don't think they were imposed by the administration. I think that was pure Buzz.
People might try to compare the program today to the program of years past, but in years past social media didn't play nearly the factor it does today. Cell phones with cameras that take pictures and videos didn't exist, certainly not to the degree of accessibility they do today. It's not comparing apples to apples.
My point about monarch is he was being kind an driving a person a ride home, not a new car escalade with spinners. Mistake, yes.
Beoheims assistant did what and was he suspended for it?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on August 26, 2012, 08:54:06 PM
When did he make a "threat" to go to SMU??? How do we know that Parrish is his "mouthpiece?"
Don't write off assumptions as facts.
Google Gary Parrish and Buzz Williams and you will see how extremely tight (and how many exclusive stories Gary has on Buzz). DeCoursy did the same thing with Crean.....Gary doesnt write a thing without Buzz approving.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on August 26, 2012, 09:00:35 PM
My point about monarch is he was being kind an driving a person a ride home, not a new car escalade with spinners. Mistake, yes.
It's against the rules...and you left out that he gave the recruit clothing (also against the rules)...and that he lied. (Very much against the rules of every work place I know.)
What UK does or doesn't do is completely irrelevant to this conversation. I don't want MU to be like UK, clearly the administration doesn't, and if Buzz wants that he should look elsewhere.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on August 26, 2012, 09:02:11 PM
Beoheims assistant did what and was he suspended for it?
He was fired.
Quote from: Knight Commission on August 26, 2012, 09:03:57 PM
Gary doesnt write a thing without Buzz approving.
Another assumption written off as a fact. You are on quite the roll.
My point, was Jim b suspended for what his assistant did who was at Cuse for 25.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on August 26, 2012, 04:55:09 PM
We are now in the post Joe Pa era and Head coaches are now held responsible for everything.
See Bobby Petrino. Schools now have zero tolerance for off-field (court) problems ... even if they are winning.
Buzz has no reason to feel jilted or look for the a new job. He should be standing on Wisconsin Avenue apologizing to passerbys.
Since the Florida game in the Sweet Sixteen ....
* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
(did I forget anything?)
The list above is simply unacceptable, especially coming in the wake of all the in-season suspension, Newbill, sexual assault (harassment), half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar (added later), Vander fight/court appearances, etc.
Maybe this is why Collins, and Lundy left and why Benford was desperate of the HC job? Are they jumping ship before Buzz sinks it? Hopefully Chew and Wainwright will help get things under control.
So please stop the LW wants us to be SLU. Buzz has to get control of this program. He knows this and should feel lucky he was not hammered harder.
The only reason he is still around is the team is doing well and has good recruits coming. The administration has been more than fair and he has to do his part ... STOP GIVING THEM A REASON TO DRAFT FRIDAY NIGHT PRESS RELEASES.
If Buzz feels the administration is being unfairly hard on him, go ahead and leave and try this crap when your team is 15 and 15 at another school that just views you as a hired gun. If he leaves, he will be a high-major D1 coach for two years and on a fast track to Lamar.
So, Buzz, get control of your team and your program and cut the off-court crap now!!
If you're toying with leaving, that means you don't get it and you will destroy this program. So leave now, before midnight madness.
I'm assuming all of this was intended to be in teal and sarcastic?
As the head coach of Tennessee football just said: The biggest job hazard of being a college football coach is that to an extent your living depends on the behavior and judgement of 18-22 year old kids.
A coach can only do so much regarding the behavior of his players. Hell none of the guys at 720 club were even drinking!! How many of MU's other sports teams players would be out at a bar on campus or off campus and NOT be drinking?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on August 26, 2012, 04:55:09 PM
Since the Florida game in the Sweet Sixteen ....
* SMU
* TJ Taylor
* Todd Mayo suspended and then not suspended
* Apartment 720
* Monrach breaking the rules and lying
(did I forget anything?)
The list above is simply unacceptable, especially coming in the wake of all the in-season suspension, Newbill, sexual assault (harassment), half the team getting busted for being under 21 in a bar (added later), Vander fight/court appearances, etc.
YAWN These types of things are not unusual in D1 basketball or even Marquette basketball. When I was a student, I know that a player was suspended from the team during the summer and that another got a ticket for public intox and another got into a scuffle outside a house party. The difference is that we now live in an age where everyone can be a photographer or a camera man or a reporter. These things get out almost infinitely more than they used.
Just to be clear, Sultan is right. Parrish is not Buzz' mouthpiece. Goodman is the one you should be worried about.
Quote from: pux90mex on August 26, 2012, 10:04:03 PM
Just to be clear, Sultan is right. Parrish is not Buzz' mouthpiece. Goodman is the one you should be worried about.
Correct. Parrish is just a tool.
As others have said, I think if Monarch goes into LW's office and says, "Larry, I screwed up and gave a recruit a ride home and some apparel." He is probably still a coach here, but with a suspension. The lying is what got him and I have no problem with the firing. Also, the Head Coach suspension seems par for the course now.
Also, Larry's comments in the AP were the best I've seen from him. I didn't think he could say it any better.
Found this on the Scout board (not sure if posted here yet):
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8301365/marquette-golden-eagles-dismiss-assistant-coach-scott-monarch (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8301365/marquette-golden-eagles-dismiss-assistant-coach-scott-monarch)
Quote from: kmwtrucks on August 26, 2012, 08:28:20 PM
Buzz, just wants the support of the people that hired him and they are both gone. Monarch was fired for giving a recruit a ride home and a t shirt. Kentucky players drive Cadillacs. I would prefers for the MU team to not get into trouble, but which kids do u think buzz brought in was a bad kid? We're not Kansas or IU that has there pick. We are Playing on a aircraft carrier this year. Let's bring back the Jim deane days where he would get hammered and the players were slow and tall.
Why would Monarch lie about something like a t-shirt and a ride home? Seems silly.
Good post. Lots more detail.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on August 26, 2012, 09:05:08 PM
It's against the rules...and you left out that he gave the recruit clothing (also against the rules)...and that he lied. (Very much against the rules of every work place I know.)
What UK does or doesn't do is completely irrelevant to this conversation. I don't want MU to be like UK, clearly the administration doesn't, and if Buzz wants that he should look elsewhere.
He was fired.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's against the rules. So, handle it internally, suspend Monarch for multiple games and you will have sent the message.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 26, 2012, 10:35:24 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's against the rules. So, handle it internally, suspend Monarch for multiple games and you will have sent the message.
Not that simple. Ultimately the NCAA can determine if self-imposed sanctions (i.e. suspending Monarch) are sufficient. If they're not, then the NCAA imposes their own. If the NCAA isn't notified of violations (via self-reporting), things can get really bad really quickly for an institution.
Quote from: CaptainAwesome on August 26, 2012, 10:40:39 PM
Not that simple. Ultimately the NCAA can determine if self-imposed sanctions (i.e. suspending Monarch) are sufficient. If they're not, then the NCAA imposes their own. If the NCAA isn't notified of violations (via self-reporting), things can get really bad really quickly for an institution.
The NCAA was notified via self reporting and multiple game suspensions would probably have been more than sufficient by NCAA standards for giving a kid a ride home and a tee shirt. Amateurs are running the athletic department and a pro is trying to coach the BB team in spite of them.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 26, 2012, 10:52:13 PM
The NCAA was notified via self reporting and multiple game suspensions would probably have been more than sufficient by NCAA standards for giving a kid a ride home and a tee shirt. Amateurs are running the athletic department and a pro is trying to coach the BB team in spite of them.
Yes, policy enforcement clearly makes MU amateurs.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 26, 2012, 10:52:13 PM
The NCAA was notified via self reporting and multiple game suspensions would probably have been more than sufficient by NCAA standards for giving a kid a ride home and a tee shirt. Amateurs are running the athletic department and a pro is trying to coach the BB team in spite of them.
Why are you trying to save the job of an athletic department employee who lied several times on several occasions to the people in his own department and others later hired by that department to do an independent investigation into the matter?
Is there some level of corruption in the basketball program that you think must be maintained for MU to remain competitive?
Yeah, MU may have been able to keep Monarch on staff, as far as the NCAA was concerned. But, why in hell would they want to retain a proven liar on staff. Next time what if MU doesn't discover the lie and doesn't self report the infraction? What happens when its found by the NCAA enforcement staff instead? Damn, wake up.
Quote from: LittleMurs on August 26, 2012, 11:00:30 PM
Why are you trying to save the job of an athletic department employee who lied several times on several occasions to the people in his own department and others later hired by that department to do an independent investigation into the matter?
Is there some level of corruption in the basketball program that you think must be maintained for MU to remain competitive?
Yeah, MU may have been able to keep Monarch on staff, as far as the NCAA was concerned. But, why in hell would they want to retain a proven liar on staff. Next time what if MU doesn't discover the lie and doesn't self report the infraction? What happens when its found by the NCAA enforcement staff instead? Damn, wake up.
+1
As is often the case: It wasn't the crime, it was the cover up. Yet some posters want MU's administration to further the cover up.
Quote from: LittleMurs on August 26, 2012, 11:00:30 PM
Why are you trying to save the job of an athletic department employee who lied several times on several occasions to the people in his own department and others later hired by that department to do an independent investigation into the matter?
Is there some level of corruption in the basketball program that you think must be maintained for MU to remain competitive?
Yeah, MU may have been able to keep Monarch on staff, as far as the NCAA was concerned. But, why in hell would they want to retain a proven liar on staff. Next time what if MU doesn't discover the lie and doesn't self report the infraction? What happens when its found by the NCAA enforcement staff instead? Damn, wake up.
You don't know if he is a proven liar or not. Nor do I. What if, what if, what if? Fact is, my criticism is that they aired their dirty laundry publicly when it could have been kept in house which would have been better for everyone. And as for your "damn, wake up" comment, here's a little abbreviated haiku for ya, "hey Murs, up yurz!"
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 06:58:01 AM
You don't know if he is a proven liar or not. Nor do I. What if, what if, what if? Fact is, my criticism is that they aired their dirty laundry publicly when it could have been kept in house which would have been better for everyone. And as for your "damn, wake up" comment, here's a little abbreviated haiku for ya, "hey Murs, up yurz!"
The release said he lied repeatedly, and that's why he was fired, not necessarily for the violation. So either Monarch is a proven liar, or LW, BW, and the investigating law firm that prepared the report are lying.
Also, my personal opinion, but I think this an opportunity to upgrade our staff. I only met Monarch once, and I'm sure he's a really nice guy and all, but he didn't exactly strike me as a basketball genius. His strongest qualification seems to be having known Buzz for a long time, and I doubt there's any other D1 coach in the country that would have given him an assistant job. I don't want to kick him when he's down, but I was surprised when he was promoted to assistant in the first place.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 06:58:01 AM
You don't know if he is a proven liar or not. Nor do I. What if, what if, what if? Fact is, my criticism is that they aired their dirty laundry publicly when it could have been kept in house which would have been better for everyone. And as for your "damn, wake up" comment, here's a little abbreviated haiku for ya, "hey Murs, up yurz!"
So you think MU made up the fact that he lied so they could fire him and put more pressure on Buzz to leave?
Are you f*cking kidding me? They'd get sued so fast by Monarch that it would make your head spin.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 06:58:01 AM
You don't know if he is a proven liar or not. Nor do I. What if, what if, what if? Fact is, my criticism is that they aired their dirty laundry publicly when it could have been kept in house which would have been better for everyone. And as for your "damn, wake up" comment, here's a little abbreviated haiku for ya, "hey Murs, up yurz!"
I'm not understanding what you are getting at.
MU hired an independent investigator, determined an Asst. coach lied about a NCAA infraction, so he was released.
What is the dirty laundry part? Are they supposed to "secretly fire" him? I think people would realize Monarch was fired when MU hired another coach and Monarch wasn't on the bench.
ANNNND if they fired him and didn't say why, then people would blame MU's PR department for creating a bunch of speculation in the media.
Didn't I also read that MU gave Monarch the option of resigning and elected to be fired? Is that true or was it speculation here?
BTW, my understanding is they had actual proof that committed the violation and that he lied about it. And it wasn't just based on the testimony of a player, etc.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on August 27, 2012, 07:34:41 AM
I'm not understanding what you are getting at.
MU hired an independent investigator, determined an Asst. coach lied about a NCAA infraction, so he was released.
What is the dirty laundry part? Are they supposed to "secretly fire" him? I think people would realize Monarch was fired when MU hired another coach and Monarch wasn't on the bench.
ANNNND if they fired him and didn't say why, then people would blame MU's PR department for creating a bunch of speculation in the media.
IMO, we don't know what transpired between Monarch and the investigators or between those parties and MU's administration. If he was given an option to quit and wouldn't it tells me that he felt wrongly accused. We have not heard anyone's side of things but the admin's. Yes, I think it could have been handled differently. A multiple game suspension would have been more than adequate, would have been sufficient along with the self-reporting of the ride and tee shirt violation to satisfy the NCAA, and would have had the additional benefit of not creating potential animosity with the head coach.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on August 27, 2012, 08:09:08 AM
BTW, my understanding is they had actual proof that committed the violation and that he lied about it. And it wasn't just based on the testimony of a player, etc.
Not arguing that he gave a player a ride and some gear. Arguing that the punishment, including any purported lying, does not constitute a hanging offense. Just my opinion.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 08:09:22 AM
IMO, we don't know what transpired between Monarch and the investigators or between those parties and MU's administration. If he was given an option to quit and wouldn't it tells me that he felt wrongly accused. We have not heard anyone's side of things but the admin's. Yes, I think it could have been handled differently. A multiple game suspension would have been more than adequate, would have been sufficient along with the self-reporting of the ride and tee shirt violation to satisfy the NCAA, and would have had the additional benefit of not creating potential animosity with the head coach.
You don't know what happened but you know what an adequate punishment would be?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 27, 2012, 08:14:38 AM
You don't know what happened but you know what an adequate punishment would be?
Well, if what is being reported happened, I feel that a multiple game suspension would have been adequate. And if nothing happened, a multiple game suspension would have been a travesty.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 08:11:23 AM
Not arguing that he gave a player a ride and some gear. Arguing that the punishment, including any purported lying, does not constitute a hanging offense. Just my opinion.
You must work in an odd workplace. Because I know that if I broke a "workplace rule," and then repeatedly lied about it to my superior until confronted with hard evidence that I lied, I *would* be fired.
Quote from: Litehouse on August 27, 2012, 07:10:31 AM
Also, my personal opinion, but I think this an opportunity to upgrade our staff. I only met Monarch once, and I'm sure he's a really nice guy and all, but he didn't exactly strike me as a basketball genius. His strongest qualification seems to be having known Buzz for a long time, and I doubt there's any other D1 coach in the country that would have given him an assistant job. I don't want to kick him when he's down, but I was surprised when he was promoted to assistant in the first place.
+1
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on August 27, 2012, 08:20:43 AM
You must work in an odd workplace. Because I know that if I broke a "workplace rule," and then repeatedly lied about it to my superior until confronted with hard evidence that I lied, I *would* be fired.
We do not know the magnitude or reality or frequency of any purported lie. And yes, I do work in a relaxed atmosphere, being self employed and the only boss and only employee. Can't beat it.
As to whether Monarch is a proven liar, the "onlyfans" clip indicates that he finally admitted his actions. So the dishonesty is admitted, proved. That was the problem, much more so than a shirt or a ride home.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 08:09:22 AM
IMO, we don't know what transpired between Monarch and the investigators or between those parties and MU's administration. If he was given an option to quit and wouldn't it tells me that he felt wrongly accused. We have not heard anyone's side of things but the admin's. Yes, I think it could have been handled differently. A multiple game suspension would have been more than adequate, would have been sufficient along with the self-reporting of the ride and tee shirt violation to satisfy the NCAA, and would have had the additional benefit of not creating potential animosity with the head coach.
I'm sorry, but you are all over the map here.
- An independent investigator determined what happened and reported to MU. That's about as factual as we (fans) will ever get on a topic. If something was manipulated, I'm sure Monarch will bring a lawsuit for wrongful termination. We'll keep an eye out for that.
- You say we don't know what happened, but you think the punishment is incorrect? Does that even make sense?
- This isn't about a t-shirt, it's about a simple (and cardinal) rule of recruiting that was broken, and then lied about. Recruits cannot receive benefits from the coaching staff, even I know that. Certainly Monarch knew that, and when he got called on it, he lied. For all parties involved, it's best that Monarch move on.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 08:42:43 AM
We do not know the magnitude or reality or frequency of any purported lie. And yes, I do work in a relaxed atmosphere, being self employed and the only boss and only employee. Can't beat it.
You're right... we don't know what actually transpired. But common sense and logic both indicate that Monarch lied on multiple occasions. Regardless of how inept you believe those at the MU wheel happen to be, university counsel would have never approved a press release indicating Scott Monarch lied repeatedly if that fact was in dispute.
Quote from: Benny B on August 27, 2012, 08:56:30 AM
You're right... we don't know what actually transpired. But common sense and logic both indicate that Monarch lied on multiple occasions. Regardless of how inept you believe those at the MU wheel happen to be, university counsel would have never approved a press release indicating Scott Monarch lied repeatedly if that fact was in dispute.
You have more faith in the MU admin then I do. And, we may never hear it, but I'd like to hear more than one side of this story. If they had him dead to rights I think he would have accepted a settlement and resigned.
Quote from: Litehouse on August 27, 2012, 07:10:31 AM
Also, my personal opinion, but I think this an opportunity to upgrade our staff. I only met Monarch once, and I'm sure he's a really nice guy and all, but he didn't exactly strike me as a basketball genius. His strongest qualification seems to be having known Buzz for a long time, and I doubt there's any other D1 coach in the country that would have given him an assistant job. I don't want to kick him when he's down, but I was surprised when he was promoted to assistant in the first place.
So much wrong with that. But at least you met him once, so you can make those claims...
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 09:17:01 AM
You have more faith in the MU admin then I do. And, we may never hear it, but I'd like to hear more than one side of this story. If they had him dead to rights I think he would have accepted a settlement and resigned.
According to the article on ESPN, Monarch admitted he was dishonest.
"Through the course of the investigation, it became clear, ultimately, to the independent investigator, he admitted the (dishonesty)," Larry Williams said.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8301365/marquette-golden-eagles-dismiss-assistant-coach-scott-monarch
I don't think anyone on this board has any idea why Monarch would not have just resigned, but to be sure if something untruthful or malicious has happened on the part of MU, we'll hear about it via a lawsuit. All the info we have now is Monarch had a minor violation, hid the fact that he did those violations, admitted (supposedly) that he was dishonest, and got fired.
Time to move on everyone. Who is excited for November 9th?
Quote from: Abode4life on August 27, 2012, 09:24:47 AM
According to the article on ESPN, Monarch admitted he was dishonest.
"Through the course of the investigation, it became clear, ultimately, to the independent investigator, he admitted the (dishonesty)," Larry Williams said.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8301365/marquette-golden-eagles-dismiss-assistant-coach-scott-monarch
I don't think anyone on this board has any idea why Monarch would not have just resigned, but to be sure if something untruthful or malicious has happened on the part of MU, we'll hear about it via a lawsuit. All the info we have now is Monarch had a minor violation, hid the fact that he did those violations, admitted (supposedly) that he was dishonest, and got fired.
Time to move on everyone. Who is excited for November 9th?
This says that Larry Williams says that Monarch admitted the dishonesty. I'd like to hear that from the horse, not fourth hand. Yeah, that's right...from Monarch to the investigators to LW to espn and then to us.
what a clusterf.ck......
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 09:17:01 AM
You have more faith in the MU admin then I do. And, we may never hear it, but I'd like to hear more than one side of this story. If they had him dead to rights I think he would have accepted a settlement and resigned.
If they had him dead to rights, why would they offer him a settlement and chance to resign?
"Hey boss ... I've been caught breaking the rules, gotten the university in trouble with the NCAA and then lied to you and others. How about you reward my behavior with a payoff?"
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 09:31:44 AM
This says that Larry Williams says that Monarch admitted the dishonesty. I'd like to hear that from the horse, not fourth hand. Yeah, that's right...from Monarch to the investigators to LW to espn and then to us.
I doubt you are going to hear Monarch hold a press conf. to tell everybody he lied, so you're going to have to get comfortable with the info. we have.
Also, MU is acting upon the information from the investigators, not necessarily information from LW, so I doubt this is some sort of LW conspiracy.
To be honest, why don't you just say what you mean:
"I like Buzz Williams, and I trust him more than the AD and MU Admin. He should be left alone to run his program however he sees fit."
At least that is a straightforward line of logic. Right now, you keep moving the target around so you can disagree with what happened.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 27, 2012, 09:35:25 AM
If they had him dead to rights, why would they offer him a settlement and chance to resign?
"Hey boss ... I've been caught breaking the rules, gotten the university in trouble with the NCAA and then lied to you and others. How about you reward my behavior with a payoff?"
Happens everyday, man.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 27, 2012, 09:35:25 AM
If they had him dead to rights, why would they offer him a settlement and chance to resign?
"Hey boss ... I've been caught breaking the rules, gotten the university in trouble with the NCAA and then lied to you and others. How about you reward my behavior with a payoff?"
Reigning is not about Monarch, it's about MU. Did MU want him to resign?
* Let him resign and then, to the public, it is his idea to leave and the dirty laundry can stay in the closet.
* Fire him and everything comes out in the open.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on August 27, 2012, 09:38:50 AM
I doubt you are going to hear Monarch hold a press conf. to tell everybody he lied, so you're going to have to get comfortable with the info. we have.
Also, MU is acting upon the information from the investigators, not necessarily information from LW, so I doubt this is some sort of LW conspiracy.
To be honest, why don't you just say what you mean:
"I like Buzz Williams, and I trust him more than the AD and MU Admin. He should be left alone to run his program however he sees fit."
At least that is a straightforward line of logic. Right now, you keep moving the target around so you can disagree with what happened.
I hope we do see a lawsuit and get to hear the other side of the story. As for Buzz running the program as he sees fit, yeah, I do think that is a good idea within NCAA parameters. And in this case, when the parameters were exceeded, the very minor sin was self reported. It was not a capital offense. And yes, I DO trust Buzz more than the AD and MU admin to insure BB success at MU.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 09:46:02 AM
I hope we do see a lawsuit and get to hear the other side of the story. As for Buzz running the program as he sees fit, yeah, I do think that is a good idea within NCAA parameters. And in this case, when the parameters were exceeded, the very minor sin was self reported. It was not a capital offense. And yes, I DO trust Buzz more than the AD and MU admin to insure BB success at MU.
Why? Because you like him?
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 09:46:02 AM
I hope we do see a lawsuit and get to hear the other side of the story.
Really? You want this dragged out even more?
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 09:46:02 AM
I hope we do see a lawsuit and get to hear the other side of the story. As for Buzz running the program as he sees fit, yeah, I do think that is a good idea within NCAA parameters. And in this case, when the parameters were exceeded, the very minor sin was self reported. It was not a capital offense. And yes, I DO trust Buzz more than the AD and MU admin to insure BB success at MU.
Fair enough.
If we don't see a lawsuit, will you be satisfied that he did indeed lie, and MU had cause to fire him?
My guess is that MU wouldn't just fire a guy for no reason (unless it's because LW is a Domer and has been sent to ruin MU, that's a good reason).
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 09:46:02 AM
I hope we do see a lawsuit and get to hear the other side of the story. As for Buzz running the program as he sees fit, yeah, I do think that is a good idea within NCAA parameters. And in this case, when the parameters were exceeded, the very minor sin was self reported. It was not a capital offense. And yes, I DO trust Buzz more than the AD and MU admin to insure BB success at MU.
You hope Marquette gets sued by the coach who broke the rules then lied about it?
Ummm, OK.
I suspect the Scott Monarch pity party you're trying to organize will not be well attended.
Quote from: Chili on August 26, 2012, 08:35:44 PM
WRONG!!!!! He was fired because he lied about what he did. The NCAA will come down with wrath of a 1,000 suns over lying and MU knows that. You can't keep liars on your staff.
Yes im sure the NCAA would really give the wrath over lying about a t-shirt ::)
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 27, 2012, 09:52:50 AM
Why? Because you like him?
No, because he has proven to be successful.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 27, 2012, 10:06:11 AM
You hope Marquette gets sued by the coach who broke the rules then lied about it?
Ummm, OK.
I suspect the Scott Monarch pity party you're trying to organize will not be well attended.
I hope we get to hear the other side of the story, not just the one that MU has spun to cover their overreaction.
Quote from: LittleMurs on August 26, 2012, 11:00:30 PM
Why are you trying to save the job of an athletic department employee who lied several times on several occasions to the people in his own department and others later hired by that department to do an independent investigation into the matter?
Is there some level of corruption in the basketball program that you think must be maintained for MU to remain competitive?
Yeah, MU may have been able to keep Monarch on staff, as far as the NCAA was concerned. But, why in hell would they want to retain a proven liar on staff. Next time what if MU doesn't discover the lie and doesn't self report the infraction? What happens when its found by the NCAA enforcement staff instead? Damn, wake up.
As state before all of lie almost daily at our jobs. I lie to customers almost daily.
"So How is your shift going today"
'Pretty good'
Some times my shift is terrible. White lie who cares!!
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on August 27, 2012, 07:44:02 AM
Didn't I also read that MU gave Monarch the option of resigning and elected to be fired? Is that true or was it speculation here?
What is the difference. At the end he lost his job anyways. Why even give someone such a silly option. Thats like the state giving a death role inmate and option of how he wants to do die. What does it matter; the result is the same
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on August 27, 2012, 10:09:10 AM
Yes im sure the NCAA would really give the wrath over lying about a t-shirt ::)
You do realize that Bruce Pearl is out of work for lying about a cookout, right?
And that Jim Tressel is out of work for lying about tattoos.
But yeah, the NCAA is totally cool with lying about clothing. Just not tattoos and BBQs.
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on August 27, 2012, 10:13:05 AM
As state before all of lie almost daily at our jobs. I lie to customers almost daily.
"So How is your shift going today"
'Pretty good'
Some times my shift is terrible. White lie who cares!!
The problem is, giving a recruit ANYTHING, and then lying about it, is a cardinal rule of recruiting.
You can't have asst. coaches out on the road deciding on the fly what they can/can't give away to recruits. It has to be a hard and fast rule. Nothing.
IF something happens, you have to report it. If you lie about it, it appears like maybe more things went wrong.
EXAMPLE:
If you get caught sleeping in your truck, and you lie to your boss, and he has proof you are lying, you are probably going to get fired.
Occam vs. MUSCOOP: Round 10000000000
(http://www.mksecrets.net/images/mk3/mk3-glitch17.png)
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 10:10:05 AM
No, because he has proven to be successful.
John Calipari has been far more successful than Buzz. Do you trust him? What about Jerry Tarkanian? Or Bruce Pearl? Or Tim Floyd?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 27, 2012, 10:52:22 AM
John Calipari has been far more successful than Buzz. Do you trust him? What about Jerry Tarkanian? Or Bruce Pearl? Or Tim Floyd?
You are going to lump Buzz in with Calipari et al? Really? Have we had wins or titles vacated? Buzz's our guy. The others are not. Big difference. Yeah, I trust our guy.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 11:59:35 AM
You are going to lump Buzz in with Calipari et al? Really? Have we had wins or titles vacated? Buzz's our guy. The others are not. Big difference. Yeah, I trust our guy.
Then you should trust him when it comes to Monarch's firing instead of pleading for "the other side," suggesting he was somehow wronged and hoping he sues.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 27, 2012, 12:02:59 PM
Then you should trust him when it comes to Monarch's firing instead of pleading for "the other side," suggesting he was somehow wronged and hoping he sues.
As stated several times already, I'll wait for the other side to make a case, if it does.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 11:59:35 AM
You are going to lump Buzz in with Calipari et al? Really? Have we had wins or titles vacated? Buzz's our guy. The others are not. Big difference. Yeah, I trust our guy.
You stated that your reason for trusting Buzz was "he has proven to be successful." The coaches I mentioned are/were also successful but they're not "our guy" so you don't trust them.
LW is the AD at Marquette. Doesn't that also make him "our guy?"
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on August 27, 2012, 12:58:11 PM
You stated that your reason for trusting Buzz was "he has proven to be successful." The coaches I mentioned are/were also successful but they're not "our guy" so you don't trust them.
LW is the AD at Marquette. Doesn't that also make him "our guy?"
In the case of competing "our guys" I'm in Buzz's corner.
Quote from: Benny B on August 27, 2012, 02:26:46 PM
There may not have been any settlement. Again, by electing to be fired, Monarch can draw unemployment benefits in a few weeks (months, whatever it is). If he resigns (i.e. voluntarily quits), he won't get his Obama money.
not sure about this, but I thought someone posted that employees fired for cause may not be eligible for unemployment benefits.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 03:08:25 PM
not sure about this, but I thought someone posted that employees fired for cause may not be eligible for unemployment benefits.
Correct...termed for cause technically doesn't make you eligible for unemployment benefits. If you resign you technically aren't qualified either but you can still file for unemployment in either case and see if your previous company will contest your claim. If they don't you may end up getting beneftis any way...
I have been involved in a number of cases like this, and I would be highly, highly surprised if there wasn't a negotiated settlement that didn't include a hold harmless and confidentiality agreement.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on August 27, 2012, 03:48:29 PM
I have been involved in a number of cases like this, and I would be highly, highly surprised if there wasn't a negotiated settlement that didn't include a hold harmless and confidentiality agreement.
wouldn't it be more likely that all those goodies would have been part of a negotiated resignation than a firing?
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 03:08:25 PM
not sure about this, but I thought someone posted that employees fired for cause may not be eligible for unemployment benefits.
Unless the laws have changed significantly over the past 10 years, I believe the burden of proof is on the employer to demonstrate cause, and it is (was) not exactly an easy threshold. My company had an employee who was fired for smoking pot on company property while on break back in 2002... the moron filed for unemployment and won, something to do with the hiring manage not going far enough to explain that he was still subject to company policies while on break.
Granted, lying seems like a perfectly good reason to fire someone, but is it just cause for termination in the eyes of he law?
Quote from: Benny B on August 27, 2012, 07:25:08 PM
Unless the laws have changed significantly over the past 10 years, I believe the burden of proof is on the employer to demonstrate cause, and it is (was) not exactly an easy threshold. My company had an employee who was fired for smoking pot on company property while on break back in 2002... the moron filed for unemployment and won, something to do with the hiring manage not going far enough to explain that he was still subject to company policies while on break.
Granted, lying seems like a perfectly good reason to fire someone, but is it just cause for termination in the eyes of he law?
Demonstrating cause is also harder with at-will employment. When you're dealing with someone like Monarch, there's very likely a contract in there, which likely specifies things that are fire-able offenses. The situation with the pothead and this are more apples-to-oranges in comparison.
Unemployment is not on Monarch's radar. There is likely a severance package, with a condition that Monarch does not disparage the university. My guess is that his attorney would have been shooting for a years worth of income. In the big picture, it is small potatoes.
To be denied unemployment, the standard is "gross misconduct". Depending on who you draw for an unemployment referee, it is usually a difficult standard to meet for employers.
It is very common for employers to terminate an employee with solid, defensible reasons, and still have to pay unemployment.
Not sure if he got off easy or not but he was at raw with the kids tonight and seemed to be in good spirits when i talked to him
Quote from: real chili 83 on August 27, 2012, 09:04:24 PM
Unemployment is not on Monarch's radar. There is likely a severance package, with a condition that Monarch does not disparage the university. My guess is that his attorney would have been shooting for a years worth of income. In the big picture, it is small potatoes.
Then wouldn't he have resigned instead of been fired? They said he had a choice. Maybe the resignation would required the settlement, but he didn't like some of the terms and wouldn't sign it, so he opted to get fired.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 04:26:12 PM
wouldn't it be more likely that all those goodies would have been part of a negotiated resignation than a firing?
Not necessarily. Those are simply words on a press release. I mean, you aren't going to say "this guy committed violations and we paid him off."
Quote from: Litehouse on August 28, 2012, 07:09:01 AM
Then wouldn't he have resigned instead of been fired? They said he had a choice. Maybe the resignation would required the settlement, but he didn't like some of the terms and wouldn't sign it, so he opted to get fire.
Yes, typically if you "resign" you are given some consideration and provided with a severance package.
Thinking that most guys in these types of positions get "something" when they are terminated is probably not correct in this day and age. Take a look at Bobby Petrino. He was fired for essentially "poor behavior" and since his contract stated that he could be termed for basically making the university look bad he was...and ultimately forfeited about $20 million that was remaining on his contract. I'm guessing there was some language in Monarch's contract alluding to something along the lines of conduct unbecoming that the University could use, at their discretion, for instances like these.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 08:42:43 AM
We do not know the magnitude or reality or frequency of any purported lie. And yes, I do work in a relaxed atmosphere, being self employed and the only boss and only employee. Can't beat it.
However, if you get caught lying to a customer that customer is likely to fire you (go elsewhere) and may also tell other customers you cannot be trusted. Everytime you lose a customer you have been fired.
Quote from: bilsu on August 28, 2012, 08:54:21 AM
However, if you get caught lying to a customer that customer is likely to fire you (go elsewhere) and may also tell other customers you cannot be trusted. Everytime you lose a customer you have been fired.
Yeah, every time you lose a customer you have been fired. but in a competitive sales business this happens all the time. It's the nature of the business and does not imply that one has lied to a customer. Customers come and go. Big overreach.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 28, 2012, 09:02:41 AM
Yeah, every time you lose a customer you have been fired. but in a competitive sales business this happens all the time. It's the nature of the business and does not imply that one has lied to a customer. Customers come and go. Big overreach.
You could lose a customer, because the competitor that took him away lied about what they can do for him. That is the competitive nature of recruiting. You need to outdo your competitor. However, my post was more in relation to the fact that the self-employed person sounded like he had no worries, since he had no boss. the fact is, if you are self-emploued, you have plenty of worries.
Quote from: ATWizJr on August 27, 2012, 10:11:26 AM
I hope we get to hear the other side of the story, not just the one that MU has spun to cover their overreaction.
Please admit that you were wrong. LW did the right thing.