http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8198679/duke-blue-devils-point-guard-quinn-cook-players-become-stars-expanded-roles-ncb (http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8198679/duke-blue-devils-point-guard-quinn-cook-players-become-stars-expanded-roles-ncb)
"2. Davante Gardner: In 19 minutes per game, the 6-foot-8 Gardner's sophomore stats were strikingly similar to [Deshaun] Thomas' freshman season. All but two of his field goal attempts were 2-pointers, and he made 57 percent of them. He got to the free throw line in droves and made 76 percent of his attempts while there. He's a solid rebounder on both offense and defense, and he takes good care of the ball.
Last season was the second in a row that Gardner put up stats showing he was deserving of more playing time. With Jae Crowder and Darius Johnson-Odom plying their trade professionally, there are shots (and minutes) to be had. Expect to hear more from Gardner."
I do not see him as a solid rebounder. He is extremely good at rebounding his own misses and my impression is half of his rebounds come from him getting his missed shots. He does not rebound on the defensive boards.
Stay healthy, play defense, grab a defensive rebound, then start angling for more playing time.
I don't think the verdict is out on Ox as a defensive rebounder. He was used alot as just an offensive sparkplug last year. We may not learn much this year either with Otule being the defensive presence yet again, and Ox being the offensive force he's been through 2 years.
Ox doesn't get a lot of defensive rebounds because he is typically pulled out on to the perimeter because he is so shaky on the pick and roll. As odd as it sounds if he can get a lot of improvement on his hedging and lateral movement his defensive rebounds will go up because he'll actually be under the hoop.
He also puts the ball in the hole at a phenomenal rate. Hence his twitter handle, igetbuckets_54. Also, like the article said, he doesn't play that many minutes so what kind of numbers do you exactly expect of the kid? He's been doing a fine job in my opinion of adding instant offense and getting his body in better and better shape each year.
Quote from: mu03eng on July 26, 2012, 12:05:38 PM
Ox doesn't get a lot of defensive rebounds because he is typically pulled out on to the perimeter because he is so shaky on the pick and roll. As odd as it sounds if he can get a lot of improvement on his hedging and lateral movement his defensive rebounds will go up because he'll actually be under the hoop.
Not sure I agree with that. Yes, he's away from the basket on occasion but not a lot. Most of the time he just gets out-jumped. Not saying it's a problem, but he isn't a very good defensive rebounder.
Quote from: strotty on July 26, 2012, 12:38:23 PM
Not sure I agree with that. Yes, he's away from the basket on occasion but not a lot. Most of the time he just gets out-jumped. Not saying it's a problem, but he isn't a very good defensive rebounder.
Actually, he was getting some nice rebounds before he was hurt at Nova when he used his body to get position. I think he'll do fine.
I love Ox.
Gardner showed last year before the knee injury he could go 25-30 minutes per game. His pick and roll defense wasn't as bad as some would like to exaggerate it to be. He was rapidly improving in that department.
Otule and Gardner provide a nice contrast, but Gardner will get the majority of minutes at center this year. Book it. Otule may start, but Gardner will play significantly more minutes overall.
This year's team, particularly if Mayo is not back, will struggle to score points in the half court. I'm not sold on Cadougan, Blue, or Jamil Wilson scoring much in the half court game. Don't know enough about Lockett. Team will absolutely need Gardner's scoring punch.
I agree with ya Ners. I think the only way he doesn't get more minutes than Otule is if MU gets plenty of scoring punch elsewhere.
Quote from: MisterDMU on July 26, 2012, 10:48:40 AM
With Jae Crowder and Darius Johnson-Odom plying their trade professionally, there are shots (and minutes) to be had. Expect to hear more from Gardner."
I am not sure this will help him, he didn't play DJOs position, and I am not sure he will play PF (depending who they put at C). The play of him v otule is what will help him. Outplay Chris, get more minuets. I don't see many, if ANY, times Chris will bout out there with Ox.
Quote from: Nukem2 on July 26, 2012, 12:44:02 PM
Actually, he was getting some nice rebounds before he was hurt at Nova when he used his body to get position. I think he'll do fine.
1 game is fine to look at, but overall he leaves plenty to be desired as a D-rebounder.
Ox isn't a rebound guy on either end of the court. All of those "offensive" rebounds... it's just part of his put-back move. Think of those sportscenter dunks where one guy banks it off the backboard for his teammate who slams it home. Same thing here, except Ox plays both roles.
To use a coaching term, I don't think he rebounds well "outside of his area". Part of that is size/agility, part of that is effort.
I remember Buzz getting on De De for limping on a defensive possession, but then on offense, suddenly the limp was gone and he had some spring in his step.
Translation: Gardner LOVES offense and is willing to do whatever it takes to score. On defense, I don't know if he has learned to play with max effort every possession (something Jae was awesome at), which isn't uncommon for a young player, especially one of his size.
He's a really nice player. Very Robert Jackson-esque. Nice hands, good scoring touch, good low post footwork, creates space with his strength.
Needs to play harder on defense, cover more ground (pick and roll) and rebound out of his area.
Maybe 13 and 7 this year? Otule goes 8 and 6? That's nice efficient production from Center in split minutes.
Quote from: Ners on July 26, 2012, 01:14:48 PM
Gardner showed last year before the knee injury he could go 25-30 minutes per game. His pick and roll defense wasn't as bad as some would like to exaggerate it to be. He was rapidly improving in that department.
I'm gonna disagree. When Ox hedges he gets his center of gravity "leaned" out to the outside, forcing him to recover to center and then drop on his man. If he eliminates that he will be fine, otherwise he will always be a step slow and teams will run the pick and roll both for scoring chances and to tire him out.
I don not know if it bother you guys, but it drives me nuts when either Gardner or Otule are chasing guards instead of playing under the basket. Had Otule stayed under the basket he would not have hurt his knee going after a loose ball.
Quote from: bilsu on July 26, 2012, 02:23:55 PM
I don not know if it bother you guys, but it drives me nuts when either Gardner or Otule are chasing guards instead of playing under the basket. Had Otule stayed under the basket he would not have hurt his knee going after a loose ball.
Well, hedging the screen to prevent penetration to the lane is the defense that Buzz plays...and is pretty common these days. Otule's injury could have happened anywhere...it was a freak injury.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on July 26, 2012, 02:06:08 PM
To use a coaching term, I don't think he rebounds well "outside of his area". Part of that is size/agility, part of that is effort.
I remember Buzz getting on De De for limping on a defensive possession, but then on offense, suddenly the limp was gone and he had some spring in his step.
Translation: Gardner LOVES offense and is willing to do whatever it takes to score. On defense, I don't know if he has learned to play with max effort every possession (something Jae was awesome at), which isn't uncommon for a young player, especially one of his size.
He's a really nice player. Very Robert Jackson-esque. Nice hands, good scoring touch, good low post footwork, creates space with his strength.
Needs to play harder on defense, cover more ground (pick and roll) and rebound out of his area.
Maybe 13 and 7 this year? Otule goes 8 and 6? That's nice efficient production from Center in split minutes.
Good observations. I actually think his upside (offensively) is higher than Jackson's. As for this year, 21 and 13 a game from our centers = seashells and balloons. Sign me up.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 26, 2012, 02:31:29 PM
Good observations. I actually think his upside (offensively) is higher than Jackson's. As for this year, 21 and 13 a game from our centers = seashells and balloons. Sign me up.
As a senior, I think DG could be better than jackson, but I'd still like to see him a little thinner and healthy for a whole year (his junior year).
If he does that, he's on track to have a great senior year.
Quote from: strotty on July 26, 2012, 01:42:02 PM
1 game is fine to look at, but overall he leaves plenty to be desired as a D-rebounder.
Talking about the series of games prior to Nova. He had some critical defensive boards. Talking quality, not quantity here.
Start Otule for the tip & defense, sub Ox in at the first media timeout for his offensive prowess & a completely different look for the opposing C, distribute the minutes 12-16/game for Chris, 24-28/game for Ox with the luxury of riding the hot hand. Stay healthy.
Lather, rinse, repeat. Top 4 Big East finish, top 5 NCAA seed guaranteed.
Big OReb that was not off his own miss.
http://tlorc.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/pittsburgh-allows-a-critical-offensive-rebound-late-against-marquette/#more-2045 (http://tlorc.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/pittsburgh-allows-a-critical-offensive-rebound-late-against-marquette/#more-2045)
Quote from: karavotsos on July 26, 2012, 07:39:08 PM
Big OReb that was not off his own miss.
http://tlorc.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/pittsburgh-allows-a-critical-offensive-rebound-late-against-marquette/#more-2045 (http://tlorc.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/pittsburgh-allows-a-critical-offensive-rebound-late-against-marquette/#more-2045)
That play is almost the problem in itself. He didn't get more than 3 inches off the ground going for it.
Can anyone who saw him comment on how his vertical was in the pro-am? Is it up to 6 inches?
Man, imagine what kind of damage this guy could jump.
Ox will not magically turn into a leaper. Even Todd Smith can't make that happen.
It's more likely that, as Ox continues to get into better shape, he may well get himself into better position, more often.
If he does that, he may well get more weak side boards and keep more opposing 4s off ours.
But it won't be because he becomes a leaper.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on July 26, 2012, 02:06:08 PM
To use a coaching term, I don't think he rebounds well "outside of his area". Part of that is size/agility, part of that is effort.
I remember Buzz getting on De De for limping on a defensive possession, but then on offense, suddenly the limp was gone and he had some spring in his step.
Translation: Gardner LOVES offense and is willing to do whatever it takes to score. On defense, I don't know if he has learned to play with max effort every possession (something Jae was awesome at), which isn't uncommon for a young player, especially one of his size.
He's a really nice player. Very Robert Jackson-esque. Nice hands, good scoring touch, good low post footwork, creates space with his strength.
Needs to play harder on defense, cover more ground (pick and roll) and rebound out of his area.
Maybe 13 and 7 this year? Otule goes 8 and 6? That's nice efficient production from Center in split minutes.
Hey - Actually agree on your whole post Ammo...a rarity...but you hit the nail on the head in saying Gardner doesn't rebound well outside of his area. He cant' chase balls down, give you much other than those boards that are to be had right in his immediate area. DG is great at eating space, using his wide body to keep other players at bay on both ends. His power/physicality I think is underestimated...he can still rebound effectively and NOT have to jump more than 6 inches off the ground....due to his body and strength..
Quote from: Ners on July 26, 2012, 10:57:01 PM
Hey - Actually agree on your whole post Ammo...a rarity...but you hit the nail on the head in saying Gardner doesn't rebound well outside of his area. He cant' chase balls down, give you much other than those boards that are to be had right in his immediate area. DG is great at eating space, using his wide body to keep other players at bay on both ends. His power/physicality I think is underestimated...he can still rebound effectively and NOT have to jump more than 6 inches off the ground....due to his body and strength..
He's never going to average 9+ boards per game (few college players do). But, that doesn't mean he can't be effective and grab 7 boards per game using his body and great hands. Just needs a more consistent effort (Buzz is on him about that) and probably some more conditioning to help him play a little harder/faster for longer.
His numbers are super efficient right now because he is used extensively in favorable match-ups. The more he plays this season, the more challenges he's going to see. I think his efficiency will drop off, but he's even more valuable to the team this year.
Very creative scorer in the low post. Would like to see him pass more often as well. He's a black hole right now (and it works), but he's going to see tougher match-ups this season.
He's the diamond in the rough big man that MU has been looking for since, I dunno, Lovett?
bilsu, I'm with you - I think there must have been fouls on our centers at least 30 feet from the basket in double figures last year.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on July 27, 2012, 06:45:00 AM
bilsu, I'm with you - I think there must have been fouls on our centers at least 30 feet from the basket in double figures last year.
Double digits in 30 games is hardly that big of a deal.
You need to understand that the point of Buzz's offense is to get "paint touches." Therefore the point of his defense is to prevent paint touches. If you don't hedge the pick and roll, you are going to get guards marching down the lane with regularity....which will cause your posts to pick up fouls much more often then when they hedge screens.
Quote from: bilsu on July 26, 2012, 02:23:55 PM
I don not know if it bother you guys, but it drives me nuts when either Gardner or Otule are chasing guards instead of playing under the basket. Had Otule stayed under the basket he would not have hurt his knee going after a loose ball.
It sometimes irritates me when Ox does it, but Otule has become really good at the quick outside defensive look then shadowing back to the paint. You could see it in the first 7 games last year. I don't put his injury on that at all, and when Ox's role increased, I remember defensively being incredibly frustrated that he didn't have the lateral quickness that allowed Otule to be effective at the outside-in defense while Ox simply is not.
That said, he improved a great deal last year, and I could see him getting 20-24 mpg next year, though Otule would still start (only chance to win tips) and get 16-20.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on July 27, 2012, 06:45:00 AM
bilsu, I'm with you - I think there must have been fouls on our centers at least 30 feet from the basket in double figures last year.
It amazed last year with what Gardner got away with when he was 20 ft from the basket. He rarely got called for a foul out there, but he fouled a lot. Maybe the refs felt sorry for him having to chase out there. However, they even up the fouls by calling Derrick Wilson everytime he touched someone.
Quote from: real chili 83 on July 26, 2012, 09:47:28 PM
Can anyone who saw him comment on how his vertical was in the pro-am? Is it up to 6 inches?
Man, imagine what kind of damage this guy could jump.
He can get up over 6 inches when he dunks the ball on the run. Flat footed he does not get up 6 inches.
Quote from: bilsu on July 27, 2012, 08:22:14 AM
It amazed last year with what Gardner got away with when he was 20 ft from the basket. He rarely got called for a foul out there, but he fouled a lot. Maybe the refs felt sorry for him having to chase out there. However, they even up the fouls by calling Derrick Wilson everytime he touched someone.
Derrick Wilson had a bullseye on him by opposing coaches after the Wisconsin game..in my opinion...coaches always talk to refs before games...and they can point out things they want watched, etc. Seemed like Derrick played really good defense but got called for more tick tack fouls than any player I can remember in a long time. There were many occasions where I was absolutely dumbfounded that he got called for fouls last year. He's a physical presence, but he did a great job of staying in front of his defender at all times...a players tries to get by him and bodies into him...they bounce backward due to DW being so stout.
These ref conspiracies are lauaghable
Quote from: strotty on July 26, 2012, 12:38:23 PM
Not sure I agree with that. Yes, he's away from the basket on occasion but not a lot. Most of the time he just gets out-jumped. Not saying it's a problem, but he isn't a very good defensive rebounder.
15.7% of available offensive rebounds, 14.9% of available defensive rebounds.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/davante-gardner
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on July 27, 2012, 09:25:43 AM
15.7% of available offensive rebounds, 14.9% of available defensive rebounds.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/davante-gardner
For reference, Jae avg. 6.9% on offense, and 20.5% on defense.
He's one of the best o-rebounders in the conference, but even like Buzz said..the team doesn't count rebounds when you grab your own miss. Defensively, I can't remember very many times he battled for a defensive rebound and won. Most of the time it's the fact that he's in position and grabbed it.
Quote from: strotty on July 27, 2012, 10:07:13 AM
He's one of the best o-rebounders in the conference, but even like Buzz said..the team doesn't count rebounds when you grab your own miss. Defensively, I can't remember very many times he battled for a defensive rebound and won. Most of the time it's the fact that he's in position and grabbed it.
I agree that rebounding your own miss shouldn't count FOR you, but only if a missed shot that you rebound doesn't count AGAINST you ("effective" offensive rebounding and field goal %). By that metric, Ox isn't quite the monster on the offensive glass that the raw numbers indicate, but his field goal % is off the charts good. I think that accurately describes Davante's game.
Quote from: strotty on July 27, 2012, 10:07:13 AM
He's one of the best o-rebounders in the conference, but even like Buzz said..the team doesn't count rebounds when you grab your own miss. Defensively, I can't remember very many times he battled for a defensive rebound and won. Most of the time it's the fact that he's in position and grabbed it.
Gardner has great hands and if he gets to the rebound he has a great chance to hang on to it. In contrast Otule will get to a lot more rebounds, but because of his vision is not able to capture them as efficiently as Gardner.
Quote from: bilsu on July 26, 2012, 11:47:06 AM
I do not see him as a solid rebounder. He is extremely good at rebounding his own misses and my impression is half of his rebounds come from him getting his missed shots. He does not rebound on the defensive boards.
I got no problem with any player who builds up his offensive rebounding stats by getting his own misses
when that player is shooting 57% on his 2 point shots.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 27, 2012, 06:51:41 AM
Double digits in 30 games is hardly that big of a deal.
You need to understand that the point of Buzz's offense is to get "paint touches." Therefore the point of his defense is to prevent paint touches. If you don't hedge the pick and roll, you are going to get guards marching down the lane with regularity....which will cause your posts to pick up fouls much more often then when they hedge screens.
EXACTLY.... the ideal result of the hedge is that for every foul that a 5 picks up outside the lane, he's not only preventing but is also
deterring at least two more easy drives, fouls, or "and 1" situations by causing the opposing offense to adjust. (Not to mention, a foul by your 5 under the basket is two shots 99% of the time; a foul by your 5 thirty feet out is an in-bounds play more often than not.)
Additionally, if you look at many of the situations where DG caused a foul 30 feet out, he was caught in a switch where he either was outmatched (speed) or the other defender was out of position - which would create an imminent scoring opportunity for the other team. Naturally, this will happen occasionally when you hedge, and when it does, the defender on the ball is supposed to get overly-aggressive on defense in order to get one of two things to happen: knock the ball away or draw a foul -- in either case, no bunny allowed.
I recall an occasion either last year or the year before where DG was "caught" and he knocked the ball away (without drawing the foul). The ball would have been an easy steal, but he didn't even bother to watch where it went. Once he jarred the ball loose, he immediately turned around to get back into position. My immediate reaction was yelling at him to go for the ball until I realized that it was all by design.
I think one of the reasons we have trouble recruiting true centers is that they look at how MU centers play. Most big men probably rather stay under the basket than run around the floor. They rather play in Syracuse's zone defense than play in MU's defense.
Quote from: MisterDMU on July 26, 2012, 10:48:40 AM
http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8198679/duke-blue-devils-point-guard-quinn-cook-players-become-stars-expanded-roles-ncb (http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8198679/duke-blue-devils-point-guard-quinn-cook-players-become-stars-expanded-roles-ncb)
"2. Davante Gardner: In 19 minutes per game, the 6-foot-8 Gardner's sophomore stats were strikingly similar to [Deshaun] Thomas' freshman season. All but two of his field goal attempts were 2-pointers, and he made 57 percent of them. He got to the free throw line in droves and made 76 percent of his attempts while there. He's a solid rebounder on both offense and defense, and he takes good care of the ball.
Last season was the second in a row that Gardner put up stats showing he was deserving of more playing time. With Jae Crowder and Darius Johnson-Odom plying their trade professionally, there are shots (and minutes) to be had. Expect to hear more from Gardner."
As I've said many times, I believe he is easily our best player next year unless a still very young Blue or J. Wilson truly explode. He is not as good as Crowder, but like Crowder, I still don't believe most of our fans truly understand how dominant he is on the offensive end and the incredible impact he is going to have on our scores. I believe he is our most likely player to go All-Big East this year. He is one of the most efficient scorers in the country and one of the top few offensive rebounders - and his defensive rebounding is not as mediocre as the stats make it look because he has always been in offensive defensive switches. While certainly his defense will continue to improve, he does have some value on defense as the one guy besides Otule big enough to keep opponents off the boards and a crafty guy at stealing the loose ball. The sky is the limit for Davante this year, so I hope we don't get a "why all the Davante Gardner love" headline like we did for Crowder :-)
Quote from: TRiptonEagle on July 27, 2012, 09:01:28 AM
These ref conspiracies are lauaghable
I hardly think saying that a freshman getting whistled more often than he deserves is any type of conspiracy. Anyone who watches basketball knows there are make-up calls and that you are less likely to get whistled if you are a well-known player. Respect is earned, and when you consider how little DW played, he didn't have much opportunity to earn any respect from the refs.
As he matures and gets more PT, I'm sure he'll also get a bit more leeway. But foul calls are different on all levels of the game. Do you really think Wilt Chamberlain never deserved to foul out? Are guys like Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron really such superior defenders that they virtually never foul 6 times in a game in the NBA? College is similar. Stars get star treatment, and make-up calls are usually made on bench players and reserves. Acknowledging that isn't a conspiracy.
Quote from: bilsu on July 27, 2012, 11:50:34 AM
I think one of the reasons we have trouble recruiting true centers is that they look at how MU centers play. Most big men probably rather stay under the basket than run around the floor. They rather play in Syracuse's zone defense than play in MU's defense.
I think you are reaching here. Watch an NBA game - the centers are all over the floor doing many of the things that Buzz wants them to do on defense. And my general thought is that the problem with most centers is that they want to be too far out from the basket most times. Look at Gardner at the Pro-Am for instance.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 30, 2012, 07:14:08 AM
I think you are reaching here. Watch an NBA game - the centers are all over the floor doing many of the things that Buzz wants them to do on defense. And my general thought is that the problem with most centers is that they want to be too far out from the basket most times. Look at Gardner at the Pro-Am for instance.
NBA centers are the better athletes. MU has trouble recruiting non-atheltic centers.
Quote from: bamamarquettefan on July 30, 2012, 12:07:04 AM
As I've said many times, I believe he is easily our best player next year unless a still very young Blue or J. Wilson truly explode. He is not as good as Crowder, but like Crowder, I still don't believe most of our fans truly understand how dominant he is on the offensive end and the incredible impact he is going to have on our scores. I believe he is our most likely player to go All-Big East this year. He is one of the most efficient scorers in the country and one of the top few offensive rebounders - and his defensive rebounding is not as mediocre as the stats make it look because he has always been in offensive defensive switches. While certainly his defense will continue to improve, he does have some value on defense as the one guy besides Otule big enough to keep opponents off the boards and a crafty guy at stealing the loose ball. The sky is the limit for Davante this year, so I hope we don't get a "why all the Davante Gardner love" headline like we did for Crowder :-)
Man, I hope you are right.
To me, he seems like a lefty specialist in baseball. His numbers look great, but if you use him a ton, his efficiency dwindles and his flaws are exposed.
I expect gardner to have a good year, and he's the best 1/2 court scorer they have.
But, I don't know if I can project him to be MU's best player.
Gotta recruits better 5's than Gardner to get the program to the next level.
Returning players that were better than average offensively last year (100).
Gardner - 118
Jamil - 104
Quote from: Warrior's Path on July 30, 2012, 10:43:09 AM
Returning players that were better than average offensively last year (100).
Gardner - 118
Jamil - 104
+Jake Thomas (sitting out but returning)=110
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on July 30, 2012, 09:55:07 AM
Man, I hope you are right.
To me, he seems like a lefty specialist in baseball. His numbers look great, but if you use him a ton, his efficiency dwindles and his flaws are exposed.
I expect gardner to have a good year, and he's the best 1/2 court scorer they have.
But, I don't know if I can project him to be MU's best player.
I think this was a fair concern after Ox's freshman year, but he was used much more last year and his efficiency remained high. He's not merely the best 1/2 court scorer we have. He's our best offensive rebounder, has great hands and is a good passer. I think it would be more accurate to say he's the best 1/2 court offensive player on the team, not just the best scorer.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 30, 2012, 10:53:17 AM
I think this was a fair concern after Ox's freshman year, but he was used much more last year and his efficiency remained high. He's not merely the best 1/2 court scorer we have. He's our best offensive rebounder, has great hands and is a good passer. I think it would be more accurate to say he's the best 1/2 court offensive player on the team, not just the best scorer.
He might turn into a good passer someday, but right now he's a black hole. When he gets the ball on the block, it's going up. Now, that's not a bad thing because he's very good, but he's not exactly Bill Walton running the high post.
With this said, you're still probably right. Not many guys on this team are good 1/2 court offensive players (yet).
Quote from: bilsu on July 30, 2012, 09:12:17 AM
NBA centers are the better athletes. MU has trouble recruiting non-atheltic centers.
Why would we want to recruit non-athletic centers???
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 30, 2012, 11:23:49 AM
Why would we want to recruit non-athletic centers???
The athletic ones go to select programs, which means we have to settle for the next tier. The problem is that we are not getting them either.
And yet, somehow, Buzz muddles through. I predict we will see more recruits like McKay rather than traditional 5's as time goes on. And finally,'getting a bit picky, even for you, aren't you, Bilsu? In two years, we will have Otule(?), DG, Jamil, Steve Taylor, and now McKay. Somehow, this isn't enough? Shaq, Alonzo, Timmy, Dwight, any big good enough to be a one-and-done, ain't walking through that door. If this all means that we have to endure a thin, skilled 6'10 guy manning the 5 in 3 years, I can still live with it.
Ox is a great passer out of the double team. Buzz even commented on his radio show that if you double team him - it's a basket.
Quote from: bilsu on July 30, 2012, 06:34:22 PM
The athletic ones go to select programs, which means we have to settle for the next tier. The problem is that we are not getting them either.
Who aren't we getting? We are going to have our tallest team in quite a while here next year.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 30, 2012, 09:18:09 PM
Who aren't we getting? We are going to have our tallest team in quite a while here next year.
Carson Desrosiers and DaShonte Riley.
Quote from: strotty on July 30, 2012, 09:19:21 PM
Carson Desrosiers and DaShonte Riley.
The center that will be a freshmen at Michigan
Mitch McGary....who is hardly next-tier or unathletic. And a Beilein team is going to be out and running more than Marquette even.
Here is his autobio on his game:
http://boxofmess.com/2011/01/07/brewster-academys-12-mitch-mcgary-journal-entry/
"I'm not really a post player. I'm more of a face up guy and not back to the basket. I like getting down open court and running instead of getting stuck on the block."
Does this sound like a guy who isn't going to come to Marquette because Buzz will make him hedge screens on defense??
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 31, 2012, 09:45:11 AM
Mitch McGary....who is hardly next-tier or unathletic. And a Beilein team is going to be out and running more than Marquette even.
Here is his autobio on his game:
http://boxofmess.com/2011/01/07/brewster-academys-12-mitch-mcgary-journal-entry/
"I'm not really a post player. I'm more of a face up guy and not back to the basket. I like getting down open court and running instead of getting stuck on the block."
Does this sound like a guy who isn't going to come to Marquette because Buzz will make him hedge screens on defense??
Probably not, but we did not get him and I believe we were on him early.
But you specifically said this:
"I think one of the reasons we have trouble recruiting true centers is that they look at how MU centers play. Most big men probably rather stay under the basket than run around the floor."
And then I said...like who?
And you brought up him....but he clearly doesn't want to stay under the basket.
So, again, who have we lost recruiting wise because Buzz makes his centers run around the floor hedging screens instead of parking themselves under the basket?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 31, 2012, 01:05:23 PM
But you specifically said this:
"I think one of the reasons we have trouble recruiting true centers is that they look at how MU centers play. Most big men probably rather stay under the basket than run around the floor."
And then I said...like who?
And you brought up him....but he clearly doesn't want to stay under the basket.
So, again, who have we lost recruiting wise because Buzz makes his centers run around the floor hedging screens instead of parking themselves under the basket?
Take this another step. Name 5 centers in the NCAA last year that didn't hedge. I'll even give you one, Anthony Davis, can you name 4 other centers that don't hedge or out right switch these days? Even Becky hedges.
Quote from: mu03eng on July 31, 2012, 01:08:15 PM
Take this another step. Name 5 centers in the NCAA last year that didn't hedge. I'll even give you one, Anthony Davis, can you name 4 other centers that don't hedge or out right switch these days? Even Becky hedges.
Fab Melo didn't either. But yeah, it is a relatively common practice at all levels of basketball to hedge a screen.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 31, 2012, 01:11:17 PM
Fab Melo didn't either. But yeah, it is a relatively common practice at all levels of basketball to hedge a screen.
Not fair. Centers in a 2-3 zone would never hedge.
How often do you see other teams centers chasing guards as much as MU's centers do?
Quote from: bilsu on July 31, 2012, 02:58:26 PM
How often do you see other teams centers chasing guards as much as MU's centers do?
I don't see them "chasing guards." I see them hedging screens...and that oftentimes can result in a bad switch. But it doesn't happen all that often.
Quote from: bilsu on July 31, 2012, 02:58:26 PM
How often do you see other teams centers chasing guards as much as MU's centers do?
Watch the NBA, all the best teams run the pick and roll on office, and the defense either switches or hedges. Being able to hedge a screen is critical in the NBA so the fact that MU does it certainly shouldn't be a negative for a center.
The only reason to not hedge a center is if you have a shot blocking center with quick lateral movement. There are like 3 in the NCAA in any given year.
My guess is that Buzz's bootcamp is far tougher than hedging screens.
If a player doesn't choose MU because of the way centers defend screens, then MU is probably better off letting that player look elsewhere.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 30, 2012, 10:08:10 AM
Gotta recruits better 5's than Gardner to get the program to the next level.
If MU consistently had centers of Gardner's talent, MU
would be at the next level. Recruiting all the other positions would fall nicely into place with a Gardner quality big man around all the time.
Both Gardner and Otule are better than any big we've had at MU since Robert Jackson and before that since Big Mac and Amal McCaskill. So I think we are lucky to have them.
But, to be realistic, they are not program changing big men nor are they truly elite. They are adequate for a Top 15-20 level team. We need to recruit better at this position if we are ever going to get over the hump and be a truly elite program.
This is not a dig at them, although I suppose it sounds like one.
Murray, stick to bringin' the donuts.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 31, 2012, 06:28:18 PM
Murray, stick to bringin' the donuts.
Is this a line from the Odd Couple?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on July 31, 2012, 06:17:41 PM
Both Gardner and Otule are better than any big we've had at MU since Robert Jackson and before that since Big Mac and Amal McCaskill. So I think we are lucky to have them.
But, to be realistic, they are not program changing big men nor are they truly elite. They are adequate for a Top 15-20 level team. We need to recruit better at this position if we are ever going to get over the hump and be a truly elite program.
This is not a dig at them, although I suppose it sounds like one.
Like Miles Plumlee at Duke?? Duke is an elite program and I can't remember them ever having a center of the type the folks here are describing. If we are consistently at top 15 program that's elite enough for me. Besides everyone seems to fantasize about the aircraft carrier center, I don't think those players exist much any more plus they absolutely don't fit in Buzz's system.
Quote from: mu03eng on August 01, 2012, 09:29:12 AM
Like Miles Plumlee at Duke?? Duke is an elite program and I can't remember them ever having a center of the type the folks here are describing. If we are consistently at top 15 program that's elite enough for me. Besides everyone seems to fantasize about the aircraft carrier center, I don't think those players exist much any more plus they absolutely don't fit in Buzz's system.
Butler went to two straight championship games with the 6'8" Matt Howard playing center for them. In one of those games he faced the immortal Brian Zoubek (who was tall...and that's about it) and in the other he faced Alex Oriakhi.
You certainly can win in the NCAA with an undersized center if you put enough talent around them as you mention.
Quote from: ringout on August 01, 2012, 08:44:05 AM
Is this a line from the Odd Couple?
Part of a running gag we had regarding camping out for Tokoto's college choice announcement.
Quote from: mu03eng on August 01, 2012, 09:29:12 AM
Like Miles Plumlee at Duke?? Duke is an elite program and I can't remember them ever having a center of the type the folks here are describing. If we are consistently at top 15 program that's elite enough for me. Besides everyone seems to fantasize about the aircraft carrier center, I don't think those players exist much any more plus they absolutely don't fit in Buzz's system.
+1
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on August 01, 2012, 09:42:14 AM
Butler went to two straight championship games with the 6'8" Matt Howard playing center for them. In one of those games he faced the immortal Brian Zoubek (who was tall...and that's about it) and in the other he faced Alex Oriakhi.
You certainly can win in the NCAA with an undersized center if you put enough talent around them as you mention.
+1
You can be a Final Four caliber team, without a dominant big - just need a very serviceable big - and Gardner - like Matt Howard- definitely is serviceable - yet I'll go on a limb and say by his senior year, he will be dominant. I'm looking for another big jump in performance from DG this year - hopefully he stays healthy all year.
Matt Howard was far more than serviceable.
He was an very good college player.
Just because a guy doesn't make the NBA, doesn't mean he wasn't good.
With this said, you don't need to be outstanding at every position to be a top team... but you need to be good at most of them.
On Final 4 teams, they rarely having gaping holes at a position. The worst players are still usually very solid.
Honestly, Gardner/Otule combo is pretty damn good. Most teams would be hard matched to have a better pair.
Without actually looking up the Duke championsip teams, I would expect them to have players that had long pro careers. Gminski (sp) was a true center, but that is going back to the 80's. Duke usually has good outside shooters and good forwards including the forward that would play center for them. Gardner probably woiuld not have started on any of Duke's NCAA championship teams.
Big man's game.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 01, 2012, 03:21:48 PM
Big man's game.
We have had this debate endlessly here about whether its a "big man's game" or a "guard's game." Both sides really miss the mark, because it is really about talent and balance. You really can't win with a bunch of guards, and you can't win with a bunch of centers. You need both. And you need to get the best talent at these positions that you can.
So while above I mentioned Brian Zoubek. No one would say he was particularly talented - his statistics are roughly equal to Chris Otule's. But if you put enough talent around him, you can win a national championship. Nolan Smith, Jon Scheyer, Kyle Singler, etc.
But you do need size. And Marquette is going to have its tallest team in years in 2013-14.
FWIW, The Ox is #15 in the College BK Top 40 Hot List:
http://www.yardbarker.com/college_basketball
"Gardner averaged 19 minutes per game in his sophomore season as his role was limited behind the now departed Jae Crowder and Darius Johnson-Odom."
Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/222738 (http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/222738)/Quinn_Cook_Alan_Williams_Davante_Gardner_Could_Be_Breakout_Candidates#ixzz22SCoCMig
If DJO wasn't hogging all those minutes at guard, Davante would have solidified himself as the second coming of Jeronnie Maymon!!!
I guess it's easy to make fun of a guy like Zoubek, but without his tremendous progress in that last year Duke does not win the championship. That year, Duke struggled early in ACC play because they would get dominated by teams inside. By the end of the year Zoubek was able to control the paint. If I remember correctly, he had a couple big OReb putbacks in the final game.
I would also consider Howard a pretty classic big. I don't think its solely the height that makes a guy a big. Barkley is obviously the classic example. But Howard had a strong back-to-the-basket post-up game. He also fought like a mf'er defensively and for rebounds down low. In 2011, that Smith guy also played a lot for Butler and he was 6'11", so I don't think Butler was necessarily a small team.
That said, what a team really needs is guys who are big and aggressive enough not to get pushed around down low by the other team's bigs. When you play pressure defense like MU does, it is also extemely helpful to have a shot-blocker. Getting post offense from a big seems to be a bonus for a lot of teams these days. We have that in Gardner. How nice was it last year to need a bucket and have him to go to? They did it a lot. I'm happy with the bigs situation going into next year.
When I think of why you need big guys to be elite I think of the MU-Stanford game and the midgets team when they played Syracuse. It puts you in a huge hole when you have no answer for Lopez brothers or a Onuaku-Jackson combo. A lot of easy buckets to make up for.