MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on July 09, 2012, 12:48:24 PM
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I voted for #1
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Me, too. That's 2!! Not really attached to the outcome. Marq just does not need anymore head cases or kids who still don't get the classroom/ tutor part of college. Even Bo Ellis showed up to school back in my day....
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I voted for the third one.
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Outta sight, outta mind.
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Tough question. I think we might have seen the last of him but who knows.
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I voted for what Strotty said; he's got better sources than I do.
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I reluctantly select #3. Have a bad feeling that TM has played his last game for MU. Just don't get the feeling that he's mature enough to handle being a college student and playing for Buzz. Hope I'm wrong.
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#3, I too assume he's gone. Stranger things have happened though.
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Why would be be officially "suspended" if he played his last game? Why not simply say he is out of school and off the team? Now you have to go through the news cycle twice.
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I voted for the second one because it looked lonely, and that's as good a reason as anyone has right not to place any vote.
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EDIT
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Why would be be officially "suspended" if he played his last game? Why not simply say he is out of school and off the team? Now you have to go through the news cycle twice.
You're right, but then why is he still suspended? What are they deciding?
I don't know WTF is going on with this one. My guess is academics the way Buzz danced around it, but I have no idea. I don't know if Buzz can say "Todd's working on his grades, he'll be back if he does well.".
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I'm going with the track record of changing schools.
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Unfortunately, it seems MU is a bit of a revolving door when it comes to player movement. TM is "suspended" now...but I can see where it becomes permanent at some point in the near future.
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You're right, but then why is he still suspended? What are they deciding?
They may not be deciding anything. They may just want him to take a break from the program for the rest of the summer.
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If he transfers, he'll be 23 at the end of his sophomore year.
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They may not be deciding anything. They may just want him to take a break from the program for the rest of the summer.
You could be right, but I don't know. Once his grades are presumably better, I don't know why he would remain suspended. I guess you could say for "punishment", but I don't know if traveling around the world is really punishing him.
Like I said, I have no idea. Never really heard or seen anything like this.
Maybe it's not academic. Whatever. We'll find out the first day of school.
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I voted for the third one.
Strotty... with great power comes great responsibility. Since you'll always be considered an "insider" on MUBB issues (even when you don't want to be), it would be very kind of you if you would qualify your responses - particularly on "100-page thread" topics such as this one - as whether it's pure speculation on your part or not. Otherwise, some of us are going to get email chains in the next 12 hours saying "Mark Strotman said Todd Mayo is off the team."
That said, I gotta go with Sultan here... granted the quality of athletics' PR is leaving much to be desired on the damage control front, they're not complete morons. To think that they're going to drag themselves through the wringer twice on one issue assumes complete ineptitude. If Mayo being gone was a done deal, Buzz would have said so already.
A Buzz suspension could be anything.... indefinite, a month, a semester, a season, or 20 minutes. Too many people reading way too much into that one word.
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I don't think any decision has been made, which is why no one is reporting that he is off the team. But putting a few conversations I've had with people together, I don't see him returning. And as I said in an earlier thread regarding Mayo, this is his issue he made and his to fix if he wants to return. Whether it's now too late or not is another story, but Mayo didn't draw a short straw.
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He ain't comin back
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I don't think any decision has been made, which is why no one is reporting that he is off the team. But putting a few conversations I've had with people together, I don't see him returning. And as I said in an earlier thread regarding Mayo, this is his issue he made and his to fix if he wants to return. Whether it's now too late or not is another story, but Mayo didn't draw a short straw.
OK, I appreciate that response....it gives me a better sense of what might be going on and I guess the ball is still in Mayo's court.
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Strotty
Thanks for the insight.
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My gut says he's gone. If his suspension is due to poor academics, I fail to see how not being on campus for the 2nd summer session addresses that issue.
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He strikes me as a punk, and possible cancer to the team. Lockett has said how impressed he is with how hard everyone is working and he's traveling the globe??? Good riddance.
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He strikes me as a punk, and possible cancer to the team. Lockett has said how impressed he is with how hard everyone is working and he's traveling the globe??? Good riddance.
Not sure where that came from. Never heard anyone call him a cancer. Anyway, the signing of Lockett was the insurance policy on Todd Mayo. He is not coming back imo.
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Strotty... with great power comes great responsibility. Since you'll always be considered an "insider" on MUBB issues (even when you don't want to be), it would be very kind of you if you would qualify your responses - particularly on "100-page thread" topics such as this one - as whether it's pure speculation on your part or not. Otherwise, some of us are going to get email chains in the next 12 hours saying "Mark Strotman said Todd Mayo is off the team."
That said, I gotta go with Sultan here... granted the quality of athletics' PR is leaving much to be desired on the damage control front, they're not complete morons. To think that they're going to drag themselves through the wringer twice on one issue assumes complete ineptitude. If Mayo being gone was a done deal, Buzz would have said so already.
A Buzz suspension could be anything.... indefinite, a month, a semester, a season, or 20 minutes. Too many people reading way too much into that one word.
This makes the most sense. If he's out then kick him off and don't suspend him. By suspending him it says he he can still "fix it."
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As was pointed out before, if he transfers, he would be a 23 year old Sophomore. Unless he tears up the league into a possible lottery pick, NBA GMs don't take kids that old in the draft unless they have already proven themselves (or are well over 7 feet). Right now Mayo is a bench player that is under suspension, who would take him? Answer, a "lesser" basketball program than MU making his jump to the next level even harder.
Sum it up and I'll bet Mayo knows all this and will "fix" whatever is the problem and will be back on the team for midnight madness.
My reason for voting #1
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So Marquette will lift the suspension and bring him back solely because they don't want to hurt his chances at the NBA???
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So Marquette will lift the suspension and bring him back solely because they don't want to hurt his chances at the NBA???
No Mayo will fix the problem and get off suspension because that, over transferring, remains is best path to the NBA.
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At his age, transferring isn't an option.
He's not going to start for MU next year, so he may think that his fastest route to the NBA would be to play overseas this coming season.
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When Todd went home, he was under suspension, not dismissed from school or the team. You would have to think he knows the conditions under which he can return to school and, further, what benchmarks he'll have to meet to be reinstated to the team. All of that seems mildly positive, but if Mark's sources think he's gone I'm not particularly hopeful.
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Todd was at how many high schools? How long did OJ stay in school? I would say his changes of coming back are slim and almost none. I am sure education was not overly
preached in his home. I hope I am wrong. Todd brings great defensive value to the team, Vander and him are huge guards and with Otule, JWill and Lockett, you have a real
solid Defensive team, love to see that. I am not sure Todd ever starts at MU, so going to Europe might be a smart move.
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No Mayo will fix the problem and get off suspension because that, over transferring, remains is best path to the NBA.
You're making a pretty big assumption that he's thinking logically enough about the whole process to reach that conclusion. I sincerely doubt that anything but raw emotion is in play.
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What is conveniently forgotten in all of our desires to be national champions is that Todd is a 20 year old man who probably made a 20 year old man mistake. This is a case where I trust in Buzz, or whoever would be the coach.
If he comes back, great. I would like to see him badly as I think he is something special. If he chooses not to or if he is asked to go elsewhere, I wish him well and genuinely feel bad it did not work out for him.
I would suggest we quit acting like a bunch of spoiled over-hyped boosters and let those in whom we trust do what they are paid to do. Let's stop being God and let God and the Athletic Department do their jobs.
The good news is that if he chooses to go elsewhere, our team is deep enough to survive. The bad news would be he is a young man with great talent who evidently did something less than stellar along the way.
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+1000 You can lead a workhorse to water, but you can't make them drink
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Todd will be banned from the program only to return as a little known player named Hoopaloop. After discovering this deception, Buzz will ban him again. Todd will then later return as the player known as TM.
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Todd will be banned from the program only to return as a little known player named Hoopaloop. After discovering this deception, Buzz will ban him again. Todd will then later return as the player known as TM.
(http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs3/1290449_o.gif)
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You're making a pretty big assumption that he's thinking logically enough about the whole process to reach that conclusion. I sincerely doubt that anything but raw emotion is in play.
As one's testosterone level drops, one can easily forget how much it used to influence things.
Then again, Todd did stick around to attend summer school for one session.......
Strotty, did your conversations take place after Todd didn't enroll for the second summer session?
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What is conveniently forgotten in all of our desires to be national champions is that Todd is a 20 year old man who probably made a 20 year old man mistake. This is a case where I trust in Buzz, or whoever would be the coach.
If he comes back, great. I would like to see him badly as I think he is something special. If he chooses not to or if he is asked to go elsewhere, I wish him well and genuinely feel bad it did not work out for him.
I would suggest we quit acting like a bunch of spoiled over-hyped boosters and let those in whom we trust do what they are paid to do. Let's stop being God and let God and the Athletic Department do their jobs.
The good news is that if he chooses to go elsewhere, our team is deep enough to survive. The bad news would be he is a young man with great talent who evidently did something less than stellar along the way.
If they were doing their jobs, would it have been 35 years since the last NCAA title? Come on, God, Kentucky? Kentucky?
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He strikes me as a punk, and possible cancer to the team. Lockett has said how impressed he is with how hard everyone is working and he's traveling the globe??? Good riddance.
Where did this come from? Why does he strike you as a "punk?" And the reason he isn't working with the team is because he is suspended...duh...and the likely reason he is travelling the globe is because his brother is an NBA player.
Talk about jumping to conclusions.
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Agree with Sultan...His brother is a very rich man who plays in the NBA. Not that uncommon to go on a vacation when your family has that kind of money. What else is he supposed to do? He cant engage in team activities right now...
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Todd was at how many high schools? How long did OJ stay in school? I would say his changes of coming back are slim and almost none. I am sure education was not overly
preached in his home. I hope I am wrong. Todd brings great defensive value to the team, Vander and him are huge guards and with Otule, JWill and Lockett, you have a real
solid Defensive team, love to see that. I am not sure Todd ever starts at MU, so going to Europe might be a smart move.
Todd absolutely would start at MU if not this year, definitely next year. Quite frankly, Todd should start over Vander, but pretty sure we won't see that happen, as if it did - then there could be some real chemistry/ego issues on the team.
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In the past, Buzz hasn't announced players not returning until they kids found a transfer home. I am assuming that's what's happening this time too.
I guess it's easier on the player if the PR says that "XXX player is transfering to school YYY" instead of "XXX player has been cut by MU."
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Does anyone else think Todd may be traveling the globe in search of a professional overseas contract?
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Mayo isn't starting because of potential chemistry issues. Buzz likes to start his best defensive line up and bring offense off the bench.
Also players don't travel looking for professional contracts. Esp in south africa. And then post pictures of their travels.
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Quite frankly, Todd should start over Vander
Not sure I see that. They are pretty similar minutes-wise, and Vander is significantly better in Rebounds, Assists, Steals and blocks.
Todd has less turnovers, and shoots better from 3pt, but their overall shooting % is very similar. (.413 vs .419)
Scoring:
Vander avg. .33pts/min.
Todd avg. .37pts/min.
Not too far off, so I don't know if Todd is that much better on offense to sacrifice Vander's all-around game.
With this said, if MU can't make any 3pters, then maybe you would have to get Todd some more minutes to open up the offense. He's a good player.
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Not sure I see that. They are pretty similar minutes-wise, and Vander is significantly better in Rebounds, Assists, Steals and blocks.
Todd has less turnovers, and shoots better from 3pt, but their overall shooting % is very similar. (.413 vs .419)
Scoring:
Vander avg. .33pts/min.
Todd avg. .37pts/min.
Not too far off, so I don't know if Todd is that much better on offense to sacrifice Vander's all-around game.
With this said, if MU can't make any 3pters, then maybe you would have to get Todd some more minutes to open up the offense. He's a good player.
Mayo passes the eyeball test more than Vander. I feel a lot more confident with the ball in Mayo's hands, than I do Vander's - and Mayo has proven to be the more clutch player. Vander is a better rebounder than Todd, the other categories - steals, assists, blocks - are virtually identical. Vander played 164 more minutes than Todd last year - which is the equivalent of 4 full games of playing time.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=todd-mayo&p1=vander-blue
Sadly, it appears we won't be able to continue the debate if Todd is in fact gone..
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Mayo passes the eyeball test more than Vander. I feel a lot more confident with the ball in Mayo's hands, than I do Vander's - and Mayo has proven to be the more clutch player. Vander is a better rebounder than Todd, the other categories - steals, assists, blocks - are virtually identical. Vander played 164 more minutes than Todd last year - which is the equivalent of 4 full games of playing time.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=todd-mayo&p1=vander-blue
Sadly, it appears we won't be able to continue the debate if Todd is in fact gone..
Oh. unnatural carnal knowledgeing. Christ.
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He strikes me as a punk, and possible cancer to the team. Lockett has said how impressed he is with how hard everyone is working and he's traveling the globe??? Good riddance.
Someone had a crapty day at the desk. Yikes.
Btw, can someone post these pictures from South Africa? Love that place.
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Oh. fracking. Christ.
So you feel more confident about good outcomes with the ball in Vander's hands than you do Mayo's? The bigger the games the better Mayo seems to play...
Aggregate 3 game totals from NCAA:
Vander - 5 of 22 with 7 turnovers for 16 points and 16 rebounds
Mayo - 9 of 20 with 9 turnovers for 29 points and 16 rebounds
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So you feel more confident about good outcomes with the ball in Vander's hands than you do Mayo's? The bigger the games the better Mayo seems to play...
Aggregate 3 game totals from NCAA:
Vander - 5 of 22 with 7 turnovers for 16 points and 16 rebounds
Mayo - 9 of 20 with 9 turnovers for 29 points and 16 rebounds
Nobody (except for you) is arguing that Vander is better offensively. Vander significantly better defensively and because of that he will continue to be the starter.
If I had to combine 2 people at the 2-guard spot to get the majority of minutes between Vander, Todd and Trent I'd pick Vander and Trent.
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Nobody (except for you) is arguing that Vander is better offensively. Vander significantly better defensively and because of that he will continue to be the starter.
If I had to combine 2 people at the 2-guard spot to get the majority of minutes between Vander, Todd and Trent I'd pick Vander and Trent.
Not to mention, the implication (without any evidence) that the only reason that Mayo isn't starting is because of Vander's ego. They complement one another very well and I am sure they both realize that.
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Vander starts because he's better everywhere except shooting from beyond the arc.
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Vander starts because he's better everywhere except shooting from beyond the arc.
And the vaunted "Ners' Eyeball Test." (tm)
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Vander starts because he's better everywhere except shooting from beyond the arc.
I don't know about everywhere...He and Todd both pretty good at driving to the lane, both are fairly athletic, and both are reasonable defenders. Van definitely has him beat in defense, and Todd definitely has Van beat in 3 point shooting. That being said Van contributes to every facet of the game in ways that Todd can't. While not necessarily better everywhere he contributes to many more areas than Todd (rebounding, steals, blocks). Van also is a little more intense out there, sometimes Todd seems passive, and as noted a couple of times last year can have a disinterested look at times.
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He (OJ) scored a 29 on the ACT, placing him in the 95th percentile nationally;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._Mayo
Pretty sure Todd's parents strongly support Todd's education and career (and Buzz in this). One of the reasons Todd jumped schools was to follow his brother in the NBA and to get in the right schools nearby (or Prep to improve grades...Memphis and WV are not exactly the hotbeds of education). Also, a NCAA SA can only take six credits in the summer, so Todd could have fulfilled that quota in earlier summer sessions (2 or 3 classes with no team activities). Not all kids enjoy school and the rigors of being a Student-Athlete. Getting away to decide one's future is not a bad idea.
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Vander starts because he's better everywhere except shooting from beyond the arc.
This just isn't true. Todd is a better shooter/finisher period, not just from the "3". He shot almost 5% better on 2 point attempts (48.4 - 43.6) and 5.4% better from the line (76.2 - 70.8).
Vander is the better defender (though Todd is very good) and the better rebounder. His assist/turnover rate is also better.
Overall, a very close call. I agree with Sultan - Vander starts (like Otule) because of defense, but Mayo is in there an awful lot at crunch time.
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In the past, Buzz hasn't announced players not returning until they kids found a transfer home. I am assuming that's what's happening this time too.
I guess it's easier on the player if the PR says that "XXX player is transfering to school YYY" instead of "XXX player has been cut by MU."
If they want him out, why suspend him? Tell him to go find another school and transfer without the stigma of being suspended. Everyone saves face under this scenario.
He was suspended because whatever the problem is/was it is within Mayo's ability to correct it. The question is weather he will? Answer, he attended the first session of summer school for a reason.
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I don't know about everywhere...He and Todd both pretty good at driving to the lane, both are fairly athletic, and both are reasonable defenders. Van definitely has him beat in defense, and Todd definitely has Van beat in 3 point shooting. That being said Van contributes to every facet of the game in ways that Todd can't. While not necessarily better everywhere he contributes to many more areas than Todd (rebounding, steals, blocks). Van also is a little more intense out there, sometimes Todd seems passive, and as noted a couple of times last year can have a disinterested look at times.
Besides another eyeball test, upon what are you basing your assertion that Todd is a pretty good defender.
One thing that jumps out at me - not in a good way - is Todd's foul rate. Todd committed 70 fouls in just 737 minutes played, or about one found for 10.5 minutes played. That's a bad rate for a perimeter player. Vander, for example, committed 58 fouls in 901 minutes (every 15.5 minutes). DJO committed 68 fouls in 1,120 minutes (every 16.5 minutes).
Of guys who got regular minutes, only Jamil - who often found himself guarding fives - and Davante committed more fouls per minute than Todd.
Also, for all the talk of being more comfortable with the ball in Todd's hands, he was the only perimeter player last year with more turnovers (57) than assists (42).
Todd definitely has more offensive game than Vander, but his all-around game is lacking.
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Where did this come from? Why does he strike you as a "punk?" And the reason he isn't working with the team is because he is suspended...duh...and the likely reason he is travelling the globe is because his brother is an NBA player.
Talk about jumping to conclusions.
Punks don't study, act lackadaisical on the court, run away when time get tough. Couldn't he be playing in the pro am?? That's not a school related function.
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Couldn't he be playing in the pro am?? That's not a school related function.
The Pro Am is a NCAA certified event. Todd is suspended as a MU NCAA basketball player...so the answer is no.
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Besides another eyeball test, upon what are you basing your assertion that Todd is a pretty good defender.
One thing that jumps out at me - not in a good way - is Todd's foul rate. Todd committed 70 fouls in just 737 minutes played, or about one found for 10.5 minutes played. That's a bad rate for a perimeter player. Vander, for example, committed 58 fouls in 901 minutes (every 15.5 minutes). DJO committed 68 fouls in 1,120 minutes (every 16.5 minutes).
Of guys who got regular minutes, only Jamil - who often found himself guarding fives - and Davante committed more fouls per minute than Todd.
Also, for all the talk of being more comfortable with the ball in Todd's hands, he was the only perimeter player last year with more turnovers (57) than assists (42).
Todd definitely has more offensive game than Vander, but his all-around game is lacking.
Not to mention that Vander handles the ball more and runs the offense through him more than Todd. Not sure if there is a fancy statistical way to prove it but I think most of Van's offense came late in possessions and Todd's was early, meaning Todd was an offensive focus whereas Van was not.
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QUESTION; If Mayo does not comeback, do we get another schollie for next year, or can Buzz fill in 2012 this coming season?
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Todd just posted on Facebook that he is working out in South Africa. He also said that he is coming home soon.
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QUESTION; If Mayo does not comeback, do we get another schollie for next year, or can Buzz fill in 2012 this coming season?
I would guess Buzz would give the scholarship to Swanson.
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This just isn't true. Todd is a better shooter/finisher period, not just from the "3". He shot almost 5% better on 2 point attempts (48.4 - 43.6) and 5.4% better from the line (76.2 - 70.8).
Vander is the better defender (though Todd is very good) and the better rebounder. His assist/turnover rate is also better.
Overall, a very close call. I agree with Sultan - Vander starts (like Otule) because of defense, but Mayo is in there an awful lot at crunch time.
I'll take Blue in transition or in the half court on offense. You have to take into account when these guys played, who they played with and who they played against. Mayo was rarely in a position where he needed to take a shot or step up and be the guy. Blue did. Blue is quicker, more physical and more athletic. Mayo was definitely efficient, but he was never really asked to do all that much in terms of scoring.
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I actually don't think that they are as far apart as my comments might lead people to believe. I like Mayo a lot, and there were some times last year when he definitely needed to be on the floor at the end of games because he was the better offensive option. I also think that they should be getting roughly equal minutes, with the variance being who is hot at a particular time and what Buzz needs on the floor.
But I think the idea of "who starts," while a cute discussion, is silly because starting doesn't matter in the end. Crunch time minutes is what matters...and both had their times on the floor last year when it mattered.
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I actually don't think that they are as far apart as my comments might lead people to believe. I like Mayo a lot, and there were some times last year when he definitely needed to be on the floor at the end of games because he was the better offensive option. I also think that they should be getting roughly equal minutes, with the variance being who is hot at a particular time and what Buzz needs on the floor.
But I think the idea of "who starts," while a cute discussion, is silly because starting doesn't matter in the end. Crunch time minutes is what matters...and both had their times on the floor last year when it mattered.
Yep starting is really over-rated. Particularly with Buzz, who runs guys in and out of the game except for froncourt stalwarts ala Hayward/Butler/Crowder/(Wilson this year).....
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Mayo was rarely in a position where he needed to take a shot or step up and be the guy.
If rarely means the Wisconsin game, I'll take it. Mayo passes the eye test for me as well. He has the potential to be the DJO replacement in scoring. I'm not a Vander hater, but Mayo's game is just so much more refined than Blue's. Mayo's shot is pure. I hope we don't lose him.
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You have to take into account when these guys played, who they played with and who they played against. Mayo was rarely in a position where he needed to take a shot or step up and be the guy. Blue did.
This is nothing short of nonsense. Both Blue and Mayo played important minutes with the same players and against our opponents best. And in those minutes, Mayo was more effective at being "the guy" offensively. That's because a) he's a better outside shooter, b) he's a better mid range shooter, and c) despite Vander's size and athleticism, Todd's the better finisher. That's what the numbers say and that's what my eyeballs saw.
Vander is an elite athlete who made big strides as a basketball player last year, but anyone who saw him as a superior player to Mayo on the offensive end last year didn't watch the same MU team that I did.
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The thing that stands out for me R/E Mayo is he can create his own shot in the 1/2 court Vs top teams, Vander does not do that well at all and Vs the elite D teams we played it was even worse. You need some people that can get a good shot off with 7 seconds or less left on the shot clock. DJO could do it, Crowder could often becuase he could pull a big out on D and use a little quickness, Jimmy could do it.
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In the past, Buzz hasn't announced players not returning until they kids found a transfer home. I am assuming that's what's happening this time too.
That's exactly what happened with Jamail Jones... MU announced his release on April 27, but he (presumably) didn't commit to FGCU until late-May/early-June as that announcement was made Jun 9.
Of course, one could assume that FGCU just sat on the announcement for 4-5 weeks, but if Todd was already informally committed somewhere else, WTF is he doing in Sud Afrique and why on earth did he take summer classes at MU?
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Besides another eyeball test, upon what are you basing your assertion that Todd is a pretty good defender.
One thing that jumps out at me - not in a good way - is Todd's foul rate. Todd committed 70 fouls in just 737 minutes played, or about one found for 10.5 minutes played. That's a bad rate for a perimeter player. Vander, for example, committed 58 fouls in 901 minutes (every 15.5 minutes). DJO committed 68 fouls in 1,120 minutes (every 16.5 minutes).
Of guys who got regular minutes, only Jamil - who often found himself guarding fives - and Davante committed more fouls per minute than Todd.
Also, for all the talk of being more comfortable with the ball in Todd's hands, he was the only perimeter player last year with more turnovers (57) than assists (42).
Todd definitely has more offensive game than Vander, but his all-around game is lacking.
Well yes that's why I said that Vander has a better all-around game and affects it in more ways than Todd. I also made the point of saying Todd is a pretty good defender, but yet I conceded that Vander has him beat in this area which he does. The T/O to assist ratio of 2G is not as important as it is for the PG. I admit that that this is a pretty troubling statistic for Todd, but yet I said that I don't think Vander is better than him in every facet of the game. I think Todd is better from deep, from mid-range (anything involving a jump shot), and Vander's driving ability is not significantly greater than Todd's. With these two it will always be a defensive stalwart and a guy who puts up points in bunches. Each could get significant minutes, each should get significant minutes. What makes it so Vander gets more is how he affects the game in so many more areas than Todd. Todd has 1 skill, Van has many.
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At first I though it was laughable that this was turning into a Blue v Mayo thread, then I saw who was responsible for that happening, and it made sense.
They are different players that fulfill different roles. And after next year, I could easily see it not being a case of which one of the two starts, but who starts alongside both of them. But I suppose it doesn't make sense to try to look at our players in complimentary roles when we can look at them in antagonistic roles. After all, some people just aren't happy if they aren't arguing.
Though admittedly, this was probably the funniest line...
I would guess Buzz would give the scholarship to Swanson.
Really? He'd get the scholarship over Jake Thomas, who earned it last year and is more likely to be in line for minutes next year (even if only 5-10)? Sorry, I just don't buy that.
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Besides another eyeball test, upon what are you basing your assertion that Todd is a pretty good defender.
One thing that jumps out at me - not in a good way - is Todd's foul rate. Todd committed 70 fouls in just 737 minutes played, or about one found for 10.5 minutes played. That's a bad rate for a perimeter player. Vander, for example, committed 58 fouls in 901 minutes (every 15.5 minutes). DJO committed 68 fouls in 1,120 minutes (every 16.5 minutes).
Of guys who got regular minutes, only Jamil - who often found himself guarding fives - and Davante committed more fouls per minute than Todd.
Derrick Wilson had 51 fouls in 292 minutes (one every 5.8 minutes) while Junior Cadougan had 71 in 972 (every 13.7 minutes). By that metric Derrick was probably one of the worst perimeter defensive players in college basketball and vastly inferior to Junior. I would disagree. So would Buzz, who often subbed Derrick and Junior in offensive/defensive situations.
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At first I though it was laughable that this was turning into a Blue v Mayo thread, then I saw who was responsible for that happening, and it made sense.
They are different players that fulfill different roles. And after next year, I could easily see it not being a case of which one of the two starts, but who starts alongside both of them. But I suppose it doesn't make sense to try to look at our players in complimentary roles when we can look at them in antagonistic roles. After all, some people just aren't happy if they aren't arguing.
Though admittedly, this was probably the funniest line...
Really? He'd get the scholarship over Jake Thomas, who earned it last year and is more likely to be in line for minutes next year (even if only 5-10)? Sorry, I just don't buy that.
Jake is probably about 6-3 actually...He is a pretty big and built kid.
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Punks don't study, act lackadaisical on the court, run away when time get tough. Couldn't he be playing in the pro am?? That's not a school related function.
My daughter doesn't study. Has no real use for school. It is maddening as a parent, but I wouldn't call her a "punk" by any stretch. Would you?
And he isn't "running away." He is suspended.
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Vander may have driving ability, but the results of those drives is usually a wild, missed layup. Vander scores in transition. He cannot create his own shot. Has virtually no pull up game off the dribble. Vander is a great athlete who has a LONG way to go to be offensively efficient.
Seriously, 7 seconds on the shot clock, and some here would rather Vander have the ball in his hands than Mayo? Ridiculous.
Mayo is also a solid defender, and the disparity between he and Vander defensively is quite minimal. Everyone points to Vander's D as being so amazing, yet his steal percentage, blocked shots, aren't anything out of the ordinary. The reality is, is that many are trying to find silver linings in Vander's game, which was atrocious as a freshman, and marginal as a sophomore. We'll see where he is this year - hopefully a lot improved, cause we need him to be, particularly if Mayo is gone.
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That's exactly what happened with Jamail Jones... MU announced his release on April 27, but he (presumably) didn't commit to FGCU until late-May/early-June as that announcement was made Jun 9.
Pat Hazel and Erik Williams too. I would assume the same courtesy would have been provided to Dave Singleton as well if anyone really cared about walk-ons.
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Todd just posted on Facebook that he is working out in South Africa. He also said that he is coming home soon.
He probably saw this thread and wants to come back and 'straighten' things out here
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This is nothing short of nonsense. Both Blue and Mayo played important minutes with the same players and against our opponents best. And in those minutes, Mayo was more effective at being "the guy" offensively. That's because a) he's a better outside shooter, b) he's a better mid range shooter, and c) despite Vander's size and athleticism, Todd's the better finisher. That's what the numbers say and that's what my eyeballs saw.
That depends entirely at what point in the season you're discussing.... Non-conference and early Big East play, it was Todd. However, by the end of Big East season, Vander was clearly the better scorer.
Last 12 Big East games (includes the BE Tourney game against Louisville)
Mayo = 3.92 PPG
Blue = 9.75 PPG
Now, Mayo had a nice run in the NCAAs... And, I agree that the case can be made that he has the potential to be a better scorer than Blue, but I don't buy the argument that last year's results make that a clear case.
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Seriously, 7 seconds on the shot clock, and some here would rather Vander have the ball in his hands than Mayo? Ridiculous.
No one said that.
Mayo is also a solid defender, and the disparity between he and Vander defensively is quite minimal. Everyone points to Vander's D as being so amazing, yet his steal percentage, blocked shots, aren't anything out of the ordinary.
Sorry, but Vander is a much better defender. And it isn't just about the stats, because stats cannot tell the whole story on defense. Vander is almost always in the right place in the team defensive rotation. Furthermore, Vander is much more versatile because he can guard many more different types of players. An example is the UW game....at various points during the game he was guarding their point (Taylor) ...their off guard (Gasser or Brust)...and their small forward (Brusewitz...who is a big SF)
Mayo is a good on-ball defender, but he cannot guard big. And frankly I don't recall him guarding a point guard very often either. He's just not as versatile as Vander is.
(And now that I look at the stats, Vander had 40 steals in 901 minutes. Mayo had 21 in 737 minutes. Hmmmm....)
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No one said that.
Sorry, but Vander is a much better defender. And it isn't just about the stats, because stats cannot tell the whole story on defense. Vander is almost always in the right place in the team defensive rotation. Furthermore, Vander is much more versatile because he can guard many more different types of players. An example is the UW game....at various points during the game he was guarding their point (Taylor) ...their off guard (Gasser or Brust)...and their small forward (Brusewitz...who is a big SF)
Mayo is a good on-ball defender, but he cannot guard big. And frankly I don't recall him guarding a point guard very often either. He's just not as versatile as Vander is.
(And now that I look at the stats, Vander had 40 steals in 901 minutes. Mayo had 21 in 737 minutes. Hmmmm....)
So, you and everyone else here agree they would rather the ball be in Mayo's hands with 7 seconds left on the shot clock, than Vander's? Seems odd to me, cause usually the guy with the most game gets the ball in those situations - Jordan, Wade, LeBron, Carmelo, etc...so you guys argue Blue is the better player, yet prefer Mayo to have the ball in those situations. Sorry, I just prefer the clutch offensive player over the guy who can "be in the right place on team defensive rotations."
And Mayo absolutely can guard a point guard and 2 guard...a small forward, edge to Vander. Vander has more length than does Mayo, and thats about the extent of his edge defensively.
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Vander starts because he's better everywhere except shooting from beyond the arc.
Get outta here with that stuff.
(http://onwardstate.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/grinding-fail_o_GIFSoup.com_.gif)
Mayo had a better jump shot out of the gate in his one year with a D I program and had a better handle resulting in less turnovers per game than Vander. He needs to pick up his intensity and perhaps needs to pick it up the motivation outside of ball. But he was the most polished first year shooting guard I've seen since Jerel.
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Seriously, 7 seconds on the shot clock, and some here would rather Vander have the ball in his hands than Mayo? Ridiculous.
If there's only 7 seconds on the shot clock, chances are pretty good that you're suffering through a UW possession. In that case, who cares whether Mayo or Blue gets the ball... a steal is a steal.
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So, you and everyone else here agree they would rather the ball be in Mayo's hands with 7 seconds left on the shot clock, than Vander's? Seems odd to me, cause usually the guy with the most game gets the ball in those situations - Jordan, Wade, LeBron, Carmelo, etc...so you guys argue Blue is the better player, yet prefer Mayo to have the ball in those situations. Sorry, I just prefer the clutch offensive player over the guy who can "be in the right place on team defensive rotations."
Are you reading an alternate or imaginary version of MU Scoop?
I never said that Blue was the "better player." In fact, earlier in this very same thread, I said that they should play about the same number of minutes.
But what started my involvement in this thread is that you initially implied that the only reason Blue starts is because "there could be some real chemistry/ego issues on the team" if he doesn't. Which is completely baseless and something you seemingly have backed away from.
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Ners is as bad as Chicos.
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So, you and everyone else here agree they would rather the ball be in Mayo's hands with 7 seconds left on the shot clock, than Vander's? Seems odd to me, cause usually the guy with the most game gets the ball in those situations - Jordan, Wade, LeBron, Carmelo, etc...so you guys argue Blue is the better player, yet prefer Mayo to have the ball in those situations. Sorry, I just prefer the clutch offensive player over the guy who can "be in the right place on team defensive rotations."
Because the entirety of a basketball player's value apparently comes down to who's more suited to take the ball with 7 seconds left on the shot clock.
Scottie Pippen was a much better player than Toni Kukoc. Yet in clutch situations, Phil Jackson drew up the play for Kukoc (much to Scottie's chagrin). Weird.
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According to baseball stats geeks there's no such thing as clutch.
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Are you reading an alternate or imaginary version of MU Scoop?
I never said that Blue was the "better player." In fact, earlier in this very same thread, I said that they should play about the same number of minutes.
But what started my involvement in this thread is that you initially implied that the only reason Blue starts is because "there could be some real chemistry/ego issues on the team" if he doesn't. Which is completely baseless and something you seemingly have backed away from.
Blue's confidence was about as fragile as can be coming out of his freshman year. He made good strides after the Villanova game this year having made his FT's and then being great down the stretch from the line. However, Vander's confidence/ego would not handle sitting on the bench well...which is true of all players, yet some players can handle that better than others.
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At first I though it was laughable that this was turning into a Blue v Mayo thread, then I saw who was responsible for that happening, and it made sense.
They are different players that fulfill different roles. And after next year, I could easily see it not being a case of which one of the two starts, but who starts alongside both of them. But I suppose it doesn't make sense to try to look at our players in complimentary roles when we can look at them in antagonistic roles. After all, some people just aren't happy if they aren't arguing.
Though admittedly, this was probably the funniest line...
Really? He'd get the scholarship over Jake Thomas, who earned it last year and is more likely to be in line for minutes next year (even if only 5-10)? Sorry, I just don't buy that.
Jake is already getting a scholarship from Jamail transferring.
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Jake is already getting a scholarship from Jamail transferring.
And when was this announced? Source, please.
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Jake is probably about 6-3 actually...He is a pretty big and built kid.
5-10 minutes per game was what I meant...otherwise it'd have been 5'10" ;)
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When Talking about Offense:
Mayo passes the eyeball test more than Vander. I feel a lot more confident with the ball in Mayo's hands, than I do Vander's - and Mayo has proven to be the more clutch player.
When Talking about Defense:
Mayo is also a solid defender, and the disparity between he and Vander defensively is quite minimal. Everyone points to Vander's D as being so amazing, yet his steal percentage, blocked shots, aren't anything out of the ordinary.
It's ok to use the "eye test" to evaluate offense, but we should use stats to evaluate defense?
I think they are both good players, and very comparable. But, I wouldn't start Mayo in front of Vander.
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It's ok to use the "eye test" to evaluate offense, but we should use stats to evaluate defense?
I think Ners' favorite guy is almost always the first or second guy off the bench. Last year it was Davante Gardner (who admittedly performed above my expectations when his mpg increased). This year it's Todd Mayo. Next year it will probably be TJ Taylor, Steve Taylor, or (dark horse) Jake Thomas. This thread is just a redux of last year's incredibly over-discussed Gardner/Otule threads with different names subbed in.
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This just isn't true. Todd is a better shooter/finisher period, not just from the "3". He shot almost 5% better on 2 point attempts (48.4 - 43.6) and 5.4% better from the line (76.2 - 70.8).
Vander is the better defender (though Todd is very good) and the better rebounder. His assist/turnover rate is also better.
Overall, a very close call. I agree with Sultan - Vander starts (like Otule) because of defense, but Mayo is in there an awful lot at crunch time.
Where are you getting the FG%?
They aren't matching what I'm finding
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/vander-blue
I've got 41.3% for Vander, and 42.9% for Todd on 2pt FG.
Todd is the better 3pt shooter, but inside the arc, I don't think he's as prolific as we remember. Very similar to Vander.
We probably remember a lot more of Vanders botched lay-ups than we do of Todd's ill-advised runners. Oh well.
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Moral of the story: Marquette is better with both Mayo and Blue on the team. Here's to hoping he gets it together and laces up his Jordans come November.
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Blue's confidence was about as fragile as can be coming out of his freshman year. He made good strides after the Villanova game this year having made his FT's and then being great down the stretch from the line. However, Vander's confidence/ego would not handle sitting on the bench well...which is true of all players, yet some players can handle that better than others.
But you *know* that there would be "chemistry/ego" issues if Vander didn't start?
Did Buzz email you about that as well?
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I know this won't solve anything, but here are their numbers per 40/min.
PPG APG RPG BPG SPG TO
14.98 2.27 5.12 0.19 1.14 3.03
PPG APG RPG BPG SPG TO
13.07 4.05 7.00 0.31 1.71 3.42
Really pretty close and productive #'s overall.
Vander is a good passer and outstanding rebounder for a 2G. If he can find a serviceable jumper, he's an all-conf. performer.
Todd had a very good Frosh. year and his numbers show it. If he continues to get better, he's going to be a very good college player. He's exceeded my expectations.
Oh, and if Buzz had his choice, he'd start Vander... because he does.
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Sorry, but Vander is a much better defender.
Respectfully disagree Sultan. I used to think this was true, but spent a ton of time watching the games and isolating the two. Although Vander has the rep as being a defensive stopper, they looked almost identical. Vander gambled a ton more, and therefore had more steals.
Haven't read the whole thread, but there are people who would really want the ball in Vander's hands with 7 seconds left? The only strategy I see that working is having him drive and hoping he gets fouled, because he really doesn't finish well. To his credit, he does shoot FTs, but I would rather have the ball with Mayo, Gardner, or Lockett for sure.
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The idea that you can evaluate players by "who do you want to have the ball with 7 seconds?" is dumb.
That's like deciding your center by who wins more jump balls. It's 1 play.
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The idea that you can evaluate players by "who do you want to have the ball with 7 seconds?" is dumb.
That's like deciding your center by who wins more jump balls. It's 1 play.
It's dumb for the sake of the whole game, that's for sure. I think it's logical to potentially put the better shooter in when you are down by 1-3 in the final 7 seconds, but by that token I think there's an argument for Jake Thomas being in the lineup in that situation over either of these guys (potentially with Cadougan, Lockett, Wilson, and DG as the other four). But does that mean that JT should be the starting 2-guard and play 28 mpg? No, that's silly. I think it also makes sense to start Otule over Gardner, but allow the potential for Gardner to get more minutes. If you get one extra possession, it's worth it, just like it's worth it to allow the guy that doesn't start the chance to get more minutes.
Bottom line, situational plays are just that, and it's a non-starter argument to say that the guy you want situationally for the 7-second play or for the tip-off is automatically the guy you want getting the most minutes. The two are completely unrelated.
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I think Ners' favorite guy is almost always the first or second guy off the bench. Last year it was Davante Gardner (who admittedly performed above my expectations when his mpg increased). This year it's Todd Mayo. Next year it will probably be TJ Taylor, Steve Taylor, or (dark horse) Jake Thomas. This thread is just a redux of last year's incredibly over-discussed Gardner/Otule threads with different names subbed in.
Brew - Honestly, I just like guys who look like good players...that is all. Gardner showed me a lot as a freshman, and I was bullish on him as a sophomore. Same holds true for Todd. I really don't hate Vander at all...I just like Mayo better, and think if Todd plays at MU for 4 years, his numbers will be much better overall than Vander's. I believe Mayo has pro potential...so its not like I'm dissing Van by saying some slouch is better than him. Vander has pro athleticism, just not sure the rest of his game will be good enough.
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We probably remember a lot more of Vanders botched lay-ups than we do of Todd's ill-advised runners. Oh well.
Yep.
There's a portion of the fan base that loves to pick apart Vander's game and in general, his weaknesses are greatly magnified/remembered when compared to others. Unfortunately, like some other MU players before him, that seems to be the nature of discussion surrounding him.
When I look at the entire season (in terms of scoring), there are times when Mayo was clearly better than Blue and other parts were it was Blue over Mayo. And to use Ners under 7 seconds example (flawed as it is), in December it was Todd, but in February, my answer would be Vander.
IMO, I thought both guys were pretty close, and I think the numbers illustrate that.
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Yep.
There's a portion of the fan base that loves to pick apart Vander's game and in general, his weaknesses are greatly magnified/remembered when compared to others.
Especially when it comes to his slapping five skills.
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Brew - Honestly, I just like guys who look like good offensive players...that is all.
Edited that for you. You are bullish on guys that put up big numbers on one end of the floor, but act as though the skills at the other end that guys like Chris Otule and Vander Blue possess aren't relevant. Gardner is the best offensive big man we've had at least since R-Jax, and honestly, I think that by the time he's done he'll be a better offensive player. But while his defense has improved since his freshman year, he's still a below average defender, whereas Chris (at least when healthy) is an excellent defensive player. The same goes with Mayo and Blue (even though I don't think it's an either/or comparison by any stretch). Mayo is a good defender, but Blue is an exceptional one. Without a doubt the best one-on-one defender we've had since Butler, in my opinion. In addition, I think you vastly underestimate the leaps and bounds Blue made offensively last year. As noted, his 2P% was very close to Mayo's, his 3P% lags behind but still made nearly a 10-percentage point jump since his freshman year, and he was clearly our best free throw shooter down the stretch last year (81.5% from Villanova on). You also ignore Mayo's regression until the tournament. His early production dropped off vastly (including shooting 70.9% from the line in that same stretch for an apples-to-apples comparison).
Todd put up some good numbers, but to act like he's clearly ahead of Vander is simply revisionist history. Where Vander improved his game as the competition got stiffer, Todd took a step back. I know you love Todd and his potential, but it's not December 2011 anymore. Vander will likely be the starter and the reasons are evident. The same reasons that likely right now set up both Vander and Todd to start in 2013-14 (provided both are still here). Either way, if there are no roster changes, I expect we'll see both of them averaging 25+ mpg next year, and probably close to half of those minutes will be playing together.
Again, it's not in any way, shape, or form an either/or comparison.
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But you *know* that there would be "chemistry/ego" issues if Vander didn't start?
Did Buzz email you about that as well?
No, Buzz did not e-mail me that there would be chemistry/ego issues if Vander didn't start. However, much like I recognized early on that Buzz was the real deal as a head coach, and many, yourself included, dogged me for that...and much like I recognized Gardner would be the best post player we've had here since R-Jax (early in his freshman year) and was ridiculed for that, flat out guaranteed MU would beat Wisconsin this year....sometimes you just don't need a whole lot of evidence to get it. But, I wouldn't expect a cynic and skeptic to be able to ever come to such early stage conclusions...For this year, it will be that Jake Thomas gets some minutes and will have a small role - we already know you have said he'll never play in anything than garbage time...so we'll just see how that one unfolds..
But...I will indulge you and say, chemistry issues maybe was the wrong choice of words...ego/confidence issues if Van were relegated to the bench..absolutely. Why do you think Vander continued to get a lot of PT his freshman year when he was absolutely horrible during Big East play??
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Jeez are you really calling out Vander for his ego? The same guy who said, I don't need to shoot, we're better when DJO and Jae shoot because they are more efficient offensive players? If it was all about Vander, he'd just want to get his, not sacrifice for the team like that. He's seriously one of the most unselfish players I can remember and a great teammate.
No, Buzz did not e-mail me that there would be chemistry/ego issues if Vander didn't start. However, much like I recognized early on that Buzz was the real deal as a head coach, and many, yourself included, dogged me for that...and much like I recognized Gardner would be the best post player we've had here since R-Jax (early in his freshman year) and was ridiculed for that, flat out guaranteed MU would beat Wisconsin this year....sometimes you just don't need a whole lot of evidence to get it. But, I wouldn't expect a cynic and skeptic to be able to ever come to such early stage conclusions...For this year, it will be that Jake Thomas gets some minutes and will have a small role - we already know you have said he'll never play in anything than garbage time...so we'll just see how that one unfolds..
But...I will indulge you and say, chemistry issues maybe was the wrong choice of words...ego/confidence issues if Van were relegated to the bench..absolutely. Why do you think Vander continued to get a lot of PT his freshman year when he was absolutely horrible during Big East play??
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Ners. I never dogged you because you thought buzz was the real deal as a coach. That was pretty evident early on. I dogged you because your slobbering man love made me nervous.
And you were hardly alone re gardner. I expressed excitement when he came to campus as well.
But you might be right about vanders ego. You seem to have a thorough understanding of what it means to be egotistical.
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5-10 minutes per game was what I meant...otherwise it'd have been 5'10" ;)
I see that now hahah thanks
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Where are you getting the FG%?
They aren't matching what I'm finding
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/vander-blue
I've got 41.3% for Vander, and 42.9% for Todd on 2pt FG.
I googled Marquette statistics, then went to ESPN for the stats. According to ESPN, Vander made 100 shots out of 242 last year. Subtracting his 31 3pt attempts and 8 3pt makes left 211 2pt tries and 92 makes (43.6%). Todd made 90 total shots out of 215. Subtracting his 93 3pt tries and his 31 3pt makes made him 59 out of 122 from 2 (48.4%)
How did you come up with your numbers?
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Why do you think Vander continued to get a lot of PT his freshman year when he was absolutely horrible during Big East play??
Because Buzz is a horrible coach who sets his lineup based on egos and feelings. I don't even know how to read you anymore. You're so consistently inconsistent (sign of the chicos, err flamer).
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Go to Marquette statistics on ESPN. Subtract 3 point attempts and 3 point makes from total attempts and makes. That will give you total 2 point attempts and makes for both players. Divide the 2 point makes by each player's 2 point attempts for each player. That's how I got my numbers. Maybe I'm wrong. How did you come up with your numbers?
Ah ha, you're right.
i was looking at the stats in the link I had. There is something called 2pt FG %, but it's measuring the % of scoring they get from 2pt baskets, not their 2pt FG %.
You are correct. I did the math and Vander is 44% and Todd is 48% inside the arc. 4% isn't earth shattering, but Todd is more efficient shooting, no matter how we want to slice it.
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But...I will indulge you and say, chemistry issues maybe was the wrong choice of words...ego/confidence issues if Van were relegated to the bench..absolutely. Why do you think Vander continued to get a lot of PT his freshman year when he was absolutely horrible during Big East play??
Are you saying that you think Buzz only gave Vander playing time to feed his ego? Are you kidding me???
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Because Buzz is a horrible coach who sets his lineup based on egos and feelings. I don't even know how to read you anymore. You're so consistently inconsistent (sign of the chicos, err flamer).
Are you saying that you think Buzz only gave Vander playing time to feed his ego? Are you kidding me???
I'm saying it's kind of like what you saw in the movie Top Gun - after Maverick lost Goose and all his confidence, they kept sending him out because he was a talented pilot. The same with Vander....think we all can agree he was awful in the Big East as a freshman....and think we can all agree that Vander is a talent...sometimes you stick with a player through thick and thin as a coach because they are talented...and you don't want to further add to a player's confidence issues by benching him. Confidence issues stem from poor performance...getting benched on top of that is hard for some guys to take.
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I'm saying it's kind of like what you saw in the movie Top Gun - after Maverick lost Goose and all his confidence, they kept sending him out because he was a talented pilot.
::) OK, I will just let you have the last word on that because referencing a movie I haven't seen in 25+ years isn't going to do any good.
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Jeez are you really calling out Vander for his ego? The same guy who said, I don't need to shoot, we're better when DJO and Jae shoot because they are more efficient offensive players? If it was all about Vander, he'd just want to get his, not sacrifice for the team like that. He's seriously one of the most unselfish players I can remember and a great teammate.
I don't know Vander Blue, much like i'd guess everyone here posting doesn't know Vander Blue. Based on the above, I'd say Vander is a smart kid, who realized his limitations as a freshman..going into his sophomore year. That said, I'm not sure it is a sacrifice, when for the most part, Vander hasn't been capable of getting his...seems Vander has evolved into more of an unselfish player due not being able to score successfully consistently at the high major level - other than primarily in transition.
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You seem to have a thorough understanding of what it means to be egotistical.
The feeling is mutual, btw.
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I'm saying it's kind of like what you saw in the movie Top Gun - after Maverick lost Goose and all his confidence, they kept sending him out because he was a talented pilot. The same with Vander....think we all can agree he was awful in the Big East as a freshman....and think we can all agree that Vander is a talent...sometimes you stick with a player through thick and thin as a coach because they are talented...and you don't want to further add to a player's confidence issues by benching him. Confidence issues stem from poor performance...getting benched on top of that is hard for some guys to take.
I'd say it's more like the Color of Money. Vander is like Fast Eddie, and Todd is like Vince. Everybody thinks Vince is so great, but that's only because they haven't seen him under the grinding pressure. Fast Eddie has some miles on him (and some warts), but he's a hell of a pool player, don't ever forget that.
Add an Eric Clapton soundtrack, a bitchin' white Caddy and some Warren Zevon, and you've got yourself a hell of an analogy.
Way better than Kenny Loggins.
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I'd say it's more like the Color of Money. Vander is like Fast Eddie, and Todd is like Vince. Everybody thinks Vince is so great, but that's only because they haven't seen him under the grinding pressure. Fast Eddie has some miles on him (and some warts), but he's a hell of a pool player, don't ever forget that.
Add an Eric Clapton soundtrack, a bitchin' white Caddy and some Warren Zevon, and you've got yourself a hell of an analogy.
Way better than Kenny Loggins.
Hey Ammo! Well played. Nicely done. I like it. But nothing beats the Danger Zone by Kenny Loggins. Like I've said before, I hope we can continue the debate in that Mayo will be back and playing alongside Vander. They both are assets to the program, and everyone has a favorite player(s) for different reasons. Mine are Davante and Todd...
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But nothing beats the Danger Zone by Kenny Loggins.
I'd take Vander Blue and Warren Zevon long before I'd take Kenny Loggins and Todd Mayo.
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Here's the entire problem with this thread: It's not about Blue vs Mayo!!!
And not just because Buzz plays guys in different roles. Because they play different positions in our team. Blue is usually playing the small forward, or "3" role. Mayo is usually playing the shooting guard, or "2" role.
Is last December really so far gone that we are forgetting that Mayo's first start last year came because he was stepping in for our regular (suspended) 2, DJO? And that both he and Blue started that game? If you want to talk about Mayo comparisons, why not compare him to Trent Lockett? Because we don't have enough of a sample size yet, or because we're too comfortable using Vander as the prototypical whipping boy? Maybe a bit of both?
This thread shouldn't be about Vander Blue, and not just because the thread title has Todd's name in it, but because while there is some overlap between their traditional positions, their roles are notably different. On defense, Vander's length is going to mean more often he will be guarding guys that are bigger than the ones Mayo guards. On offense, he is being groomed to be a slasher and a distributor and less of a shooter. Mayo is a scorer first, second, and third, and maybe distribution comes in somewhere around sixth.
These guys spent plenty of time on the court together last year. If both are here in 2012-13, the time they spend on the court together will only increase. It isn't an either/or discussion. It never should have been, but some people have an agenda and I guess it's hard to bash Blue if you don't bring him into the conversation. Blue is a 3 who is seemingly being groomed to play more like a 1 (for next year after Junior leaves). Mayo is a 2 who will likely always be a 2. Yes, Buzz plays switchables, so there is some overlap, but not nearly as much as some in this thread would have us believe.
And apologies to Kenny Loggins, but Warren Zevon destroys him every day of the week, twice on Sundays.
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Here's the entire problem with this thread: It's not about Blue vs Mayo!!!
And not just because Buzz plays guys in different roles. Because they play different positions in our team. Blue is usually playing the small forward, or "3" role. Mayo is usually playing the shooting guard, or "2" role.
Is last December really so far gone that we are forgetting that Mayo's first start last year came because he was stepping in for our regular (suspended) 2, DJO? And that both he and Blue started that game? If you want to talk about Mayo comparisons, why not compare him to Trent Lockett? Because we don't have enough of a sample size yet, or because we're too comfortable using Vander as the prototypical whipping boy? Maybe a bit of both?
This thread shouldn't be about Vander Blue, and not just because the thread title has Todd's name in it, but because while there is some overlap between their traditional positions, their roles are notably different. On defense, Vander's length is going to mean more often he will be guarding guys that are bigger than the ones Mayo guards. On offense, he is being groomed to be a slasher and a distributor and less of a shooter. Mayo is a scorer first, second, and third, and maybe distribution comes in somewhere around sixth.
These guys spent plenty of time on the court together last year. If both are here in 2012-13, the time they spend on the court together will only increase. It isn't an either/or discussion. It never should have been, but some people have an agenda and I guess it's hard to bash Blue if you don't bring him into the conversation. Blue is a 3 who is seemingly being groomed to play more like a 1 (for next year after Junior leaves). Mayo is a 2 who will likely always be a 2. Yes, Buzz plays switchables, so there is some overlap, but not nearly as much as some in this thread would have us believe.
And apologies to Kenny Loggins, but Warren Zevon destroys him every day of the week, twice on Sundays.
Way to provide needed sentimental hygiene to detox this thread of its bad karma, Boom Boom.
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Way to provide needed sentimental hygiene to this thread.
Apologies, I just can't help but get in on a Kenny Loggins/Warren Zevon discussion :-[
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Apologies, I just can't help but get in on a Kenny Loggins/Warren Zevon discussion :-[
Nothing to apologize for.
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Warren Zevon is on the Mt Rushmore of American songwriters of my generation (with Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, John Prine and Paul Simon).
Kenny Loggins is barely a blip on the radar screen.
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Kenny Loggins is a shrub in the pathway to Mt. Rushmore.
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Warren Zevon is on the Mt Rushmore of American songwriters of my generation (with Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, John Prine and Paul Simon).
Kenny Loggins is barely a blip on the radar screen.
I guess we are just going to not put Carol King up there because she is a woman, eh?
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I guess we are just going to not put Carol King up there because she is a woman, eh?
Carole King too.
And I always thought Zevon was English...I guess just because he sang about Werewolves in London...
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Kenny Loggins is a shrub in the pathway to Mt. Rushmore.
One that gets peed on by drunken concertgoers.
Back to topic... I'm not sure what's going to happen to Todd. Although all this talk about shots is making me thirsty...
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I guess we are just going to not put Carol King up there because she is a woman, eh?
Carol King wrote a lot of terrific songs over a short period, as did James Taylor. Neither has done much in the last 30 years. In addition, Carol had co-writers on many of her songs. So to me she's a giant but a notch below my top 5.
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Carol King wrote a lot of terrific songs over a short period, as did James Taylor. Neither has done much in the last 30 years. In addition, Carol had co-writers on many of her songs. So to me she's a giant but a notch below my top 5.
Carole King is like Todd Mayo, she's not a starter.
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Carole King is like Todd Mayo, she's not a starter.
She passes the eyeball test more than Tom Waits though.
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She passes the eyeball test more than Tom Waits though.
I like Waits, but he's an acquired taste like, scotch (which I still don't like, but know I should).
I really like Willie Nelson as a songwriter, but that's kind of like saying Jim Beam is good Bourbon. Nothing wrong with it, but nobody is ever going to applaud you for it.
EDIT: Willie's in my starting 5, like Vander Blue.
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No, I mean literally. Carole King isn't a beauty, but Tom Waits is ugly.
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He'll transfer to Memphis because Wikipedia says they have more people.
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He'll transfer to Memphis because Wikipedia says they have more people.
And BBQ! And Josh Pastner, James Naismith's gift to college basketball!
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He'll transfer to Memphis because Wikipedia says they have more people.
Brilliant melding of threads....
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He'll transfer to Memphis because Wikipedia says they have more people.
At least his story checked out...
(http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-ash2/274699_533323862_950019725_n.jpg)
His name was Glenn Condrey...his name was Glenn Condrey...his name was Glenn Condrey...
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This is not a Warren Zevon vs Kenny Loggins vs Carole King thread!
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What song has ever had a better opening line?
" Went home with a waitress, like i always do
How was I to know, she was with the Russians too......"
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This is not a Warren Zevon vs Kenny Loggins vs Carole King thread!
You're right.
Let's get back to analogies using movies that were featured on TBS Movies for Guys Who Like Movies.
Maybe Vander is like Wade Garrett and Mayo is like Dalton? (Roadhouse in case you didn't know).
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You're right.
Let's get back to analogies using movies that were featured on TBS Movies for Guys Who Like Movies.
Maybe Vander is like Wade Garrett and Mayo is like Dalton? (Roadhouse in case you didn't know).
So who's the girl Wade Garrett is trying to take from Dalton?
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So who's the girl Wade Garrett is trying to take from Dalton?
That belongs in the "Rivers" thread ;D
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"Frank settled down in the Valley, and he hung his wild years on a nail that he drove through his wife’s forehead.’
Tom Waits, Frank’s Wild Years
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So who's the girl Wade Garrett is trying to take from Dalton?
Wade Garrett wasn't trying to take any girls from his "mejo." Are you thinking of Brad Wesley? That sumbitch owned everything in that town!
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"Frank settled down in the Valley, and he hung his wild years on a nail that he drove through his wife’s forehead.’
Tom Waits, Frank’s Wild Years
And further:
"His wife was a spent piece of used jet trash
Who made pretty good Bloody Marys and
Kept her mouth shut most of the time"
Interesting way to describe an ex stewardess who's been around the block a time or two. The guy can write.
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He'll never get the recognition because of the genre, but Greg Graffin is a fantastic songwriter.
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I like Waits, but he's an acquired taste like, scotch (which I still don't like, but know I should).
Who needs scotch when there's good ol' made-in-the-USA bourbon? A good bourbon is like jeebus cried in my glass.
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"You know there ain't no devil, there's just God when He's drunk" -Tom Waits
"I don't have a drinking problem, except when I can't get a drink" - Tom Waits
"If California slides into the ocean, like the mystics and statistics say it will, I predict this motel will be standing until I pay my bill" - Warren Zevon
"You said you were an actress, yes I believe you are. I thought you'd be a star, so I drank up all the money" - Warren Zevon
I could go on all day. Two of the greatest.
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"If California slides into the ocean, like the mystics and statistics say it will, I predict this motel will be standing until I pay my bill" - Warren Zevon
And the opening verse from the same song:
I was sitting in the Hollywood Hawaiian Hotel
I was staring in my empty coffee cup
I was thinking that the gypsy wasn't lying
All the salty Margaritas in Los Angeles - I'm gonna drink 'em up
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I guess we are just going to not put Carol King up there because she is a woman, eh?
You can't have a list like this without Elvis Costello. Carole King good choice, too.
I said "I'm so happy I could die"
She said "Drop dead" then left with another guy
Edit: Whoops, I need to learn to read a little better, as Elvis Costello is not American.
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"I met her in a club down in old Soho Where you drink champagne and it tastes just like cherry-cola" - Ray Davies (Kinks)
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I like Waits, but he's an acquired taste like, scotch (which I still don't like, but know I should).
That's your problem.
Go with a good Irish whiskey.
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You can't have a list like this without Elvis Costello. Carole King good choice, too.
I said "I'm so happy I could die"
She said "Drop dead" then left with another guy
Edit: Whoops, I need to learn to read a little better, as Elvis Costello is not American.
Declan MacManus - another great one. Although not American, at least he's Irish.
"I wish I could stop you from talking when I hear the silly things that you say"
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Wade Garrett wasn't trying to take any girls from his "mejo." Are you thinking of Brad Wesley? That sumbitch owned everything in that town!
He was getting awfully close to her while dancing at the diner. If that (*(*sucker did that to my squeeze, I would have thrown down right there.
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Well, they blew up the chicken man in philly last night
And they blew up his house, too.
Down on the boardwalk theyre ready for a fight
Gonna see what them racket boys can do.
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Declan MacManus - another great one. Although not American, at least he's Irish.
"I wish I could stop you from talking when I hear the silly things that you say"
Our very own Murs quotes Elvis in his signature:
"Well I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused"
An attitude adjustment that could benefit most of us posting on Scoop.
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I voted that Mayo will miss the first semester and be back for the second. I do not think Buzz would take a chance of him playing first semester and becoming ineligible for the second. The argument on Blue vs Mayo comes down to this for me. Blue is better at the three, but Mayo is better at the two. Blue will not be playing the three, so the battle is for the two. I would start a front line of Taylor, Gardner and Wilson. Of course Buzz is going to go with experience and start Gardner, Wilson and Lockett. You can argue Otule, but right now he is running only straight lines. I am assuming he just will not be healthy enough to play the man to man defense Buzz likes. I would start Mayo at the 2, but I believe Buzz will go with Blue. Buzz is Blue's biggest fan.
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You had me until the last sentence. Buzz doesn't give a rat's rear end about whose fan he is and not. Yes, Buzz loves Vander...that has zero bearing on how much he plays or doesn't.
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You had me until the last sentence. Buzz doesn't give a rat's rear end about whose fan he is and not. Yes, Buzz loves Vander...that has zero bearing on how much he plays or doesn't.
Buzz obviously likes Vander's game more than most people on this board. That is why I said Buzz was a fan of Vander's. I expect Vander to start, because apparently Buzz like's his game. I rather see Mayo, but I have no say in the decision.
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Looks like the crowd got this right.