I often traffic the running message board www.letsrun.com
Someone started a thread titled Rank the Big East schools academically?
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4552889&page=0
Many offered lists. Below are some of them.
I thought it interesting because they are most likely opinions of those not involved with BE schools. So, they are unbiased opinions.
So, what are you thoughts about these lists?
----
Screen Name: Cave Johnson
1- Georgetown University
2- University of Pittsburgh
3- University of Notre Dame
4- Villanova University
5- University of Connecticut
6- Rutgers University
7- Syracuse University
8- Marquette University
9- Seton Hall University
10- University of Cincinnati
11- University of Louisville
12- Providence College
13- West Virginia University
14- St. John's University
15- DePaul University
16- University of South Florida
----
Screen Name: Aghast
Tier 1
1) Notre Dame
2) Georgetown
Tier 2
3) University of Pittsburgh
4) Connecticut
5) Syracuse
6) Rutgers
7)Marquette
Tier 3
8) Villanova
9) Seton Hall
10) DePaul
11) Cincinnati
12) St. John's
13) Providence
14) Louisville
15) West Virginia
Tier 4
16) South Florida
----
(I thought this was funny)
Screen Name: Floridian
Fixed:
1- Georgetown University
2- University of Pittsburgh
3- University of Notre Dame
4- Villanova University
5- University of Connecticut
6- Rutgers University
7- Syracuse University
8- Marquette University
9- Seton Hall University
10- University of Cincinnati
11- University of Louisville
12- Providence College
13- West Virginia University
14- St. John's University
15- DePaul University
25- University of South Florida
----
Screen Name: Never Again
Tier 1
1) Notre Dame
2) Georgetown
Tier 2
3) University of Pittsburgh
4) Marquette
5) Connecticut
6) Syracuse
7) Rutgers
Tier 3
8) Villanova
9) St. John's
10) DePaul
11) Seton Hall
12) Cincinnati
13) Providence
14) Louisville
15) West Virginia
Tier 4
16) South Florida
----
Screen Name: Outsider Jones
Tier 1: ND, Georgetown
Tier 2: Pitt, Syracuse, Marquette
Tier 3: Rutgers, UConn, Villanova
Tier 4: St. Johns, DePaul, Seton Hall
Tier 5: Cincinnati, Providence, Louisville
Tier 6: West Virginia, South Florida
----
Screen Name: Stevus
From the U.S. News Rankings:
#19: Notre Dame
#22: Georgetown
#58: UConn
#58: Pitt
#62: Syracuse
#68: Rutgers
#82: Marquette
#132: Depaul
----
Screen Name: MilesDavis
I'd say the rankings are:
1/2: ND and Georgetown
3: Villanova
4: Syracuse
5: UCONN
6/7: Pitt and Marquette
8/9: Rutgers and Providence
10: Providence
11/12: Cincinatti and DePaul
13: Seton Hall
14: West Virginia
15: South Florida
----
Screen Name: Nodded
Whether or not this matters, but here are some recent and all time well known scholarships numbers by school.
Fulbright 10/11(could not find a recent collected list)-
Rutgers: 15
Pitt: 12
Georgetown: 12
Nova: 4
Others not ranked/unlisted.
Goldwater 11/12(for STEM undergrads)-
Pitt: 3
Rutgers: 2
Rhodes Scholars All Time-
WVU: 24(but aren't they Big 12 now?)
Georgetown: 23
Notre Dame: 14
Rutgers: 8
Pitt: 7
Cinn: 4
Nova: 2
Syracuse: 2
Others at zero.
----
Screen Name: For Undergrad
1- Georgetown University
2- University of Notre Dame
3- Villanova University
4- University of Pittsburgh
5- Syracuse University
6- University of Connecticut
7- Rutgers University
8- Marquette University
9- Seton Hall University
10- University of Louisville
11- Providence College
12- University of Cincinnati
13- West Virginia University
14- St. John's University
15- DePaul University
16- University of South Florida
My opinion
MU is about where I would put it. Consistently 8th (dead middle) or better. No one really panned it.
Surprised at how much hate they have for South Florida. Don't know enough about them to say they are that bad.
Villanova is all over the place. Some have it very high. Others think it's a crap school.
Based on the US News list, I would have thought we were higher than UConn, Rutgers and Cuse. They must have graduate programs pulling them up. I also expected to see Villanova higher than us. In general I agree with the tiered lists. GU and ND are clearly on top, followed by the next bunch which includes us.
Middle of the road...
Most think of us favorably, or at least among the better half. Though I think the opinion is invalidated for anyone who puts St. John's or DePaul below West Virginia. But let that be a lesson about how sports success and failure can correlate to academic perception - DePaul is the 8th highest in the U.S. News rankings, but was 10-15 on all of those lists. People who aren't from the region see a crummy basketball program and it lowers their perception of the academics as well, they see a strong basketball program and they tend to perceive the academic quality of the school more favorably. I once had someone ask if it's difficult for MU to recruit; before he finished his sentence I took his meaning to be due to the weather or the location of Milwaukee. Instead he finished with "...because of the academics".
Just my opinion, maybe because I have lived in DC now for over a decade, but Georgetown is vastly overrated on these lists.
Quote from: Norm on May 02, 2012, 08:15:43 AM
Just my opinion, maybe because I have lived in DC now for over a decade, but Georgetown is vastly overrated on these lists.
Anyone think ND is vastly over rated too?
Ya! ND Sucks
Who cares about Academics. Lets compare this years basketball teams
Marquette #2
Thats all that counts
Quote from: Litehouse on May 02, 2012, 07:01:59 AM
Based on the US News list, I would have thought we were higher than UConn, Rutgers and Cuse. They must have graduate programs pulling them up. I also expected to see Villanova higher than us. In general I agree with the tiered lists. GU and ND are clearly on top, followed by the next bunch which includes us.
I could be mistaken, but I believe US News considers Villanova a "Regional School" so they don't get ranked on the national list. I believe they are very high on the list of Northeast schools.
This is all nonsense. The U.S. News rankings are bought and paid for by University Affairs and Public Relations Departments to allow universities to bolster prestiege and, ultimately, tuition.
I'm less concerned about what the world thinks of MU than whether it is right for my son or daughter. There are things about Marquette that work for many people -- it's urban location and access to nationally recognized cultural, civic and economic organizations. The Jesuit tradition is worth a lot and the compassion that people showed on Campus for each other and the world was worth something.
In some areas, Marquette's education is wonderful. At slightly more than 12,000 students, it has the feel of a major university and yet the intimacy of many smaller colleges. That's right for some students and a disaster for others. For engineering, journalism and business, to name three, Marquette's a very good school. For Learning Disabled students and for some liberal arts programs, well, you'll spend $40,000 a year all-in but never get the money back in salary and bonus!
Education is about what's right for a student, not how good a PR Department can be.
USN&WR ratings aren't really "bought and paid for." The problem is that they rely too much on "reputation" based rankings, and things that are relatively irrelevant to how colleges educate students. For instance, the lower the acceptance rate for incoming freshmen, the better the ranking.
So in order to lower the rate, schools will beat the drum to up applications...basically fill one out for you to apply...only to turn around and reject you. Now tell me, how does that make you a "better" school? Because you spend more money on admissions?
I think most people intuitively know that Harvard is better than Marquette. And Marquette is better than UW-Superior. But that doesn't mean you can't get a quality education and make something of yourself at any of those institutions.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 02, 2012, 09:15:51 AM
USN&WR ratings aren't really "bought and paid for." The problem is that they rely too much on "reputation" based rankings, and things that are relatively irrelevant to how colleges educate students. For instance, the lower the acceptance rate for incoming freshmen, the better the ranking.
I think most people intuitively know that Harvard is better than Marquette. And Marquette is better than UW-Superior. But that doesn't mean you can't get a quality education and make something of yourself at any of those institutions.
Sultan, ole buddy, I respectfully disagree. The efforts universities go through to prepare for and present themselves to the US News rankings is mind boggling. And I have serious questions about how "reputations" are calculated. This is not an exercise that can easily be quantified. That's why it's all BS.
On the question of getting a good education at any institution, I agree with you. I'm reminded of what a steelworker's son who grew up to be an engineer told me about college in the 1970s. He was a Vanderbilt engineering grad and told me, "college is what you put into it. Period!" He's right.
Marquette may be a better school for some people than Harvard. Sure, you won't rub elbows with the Kennedys at Marquette (I don't think), but at the undergraduate level at MU, you are taught by REAL professors, not someone trying to earn their way through graduate school.
As a side note, my Mother had a degree from UW-Superior and my father from Marquette. My degree is from Marquette and I went to UWS in the summer when I wasn't working. I can't speak to the whole university, but the classes I took at UWS weren't bad. And my Mother was an extremely accomplished educator whose contribution to early childhood education was substantial.
Quote from: dgies9156 on May 02, 2012, 09:24:39 AM
Sultan, ole buddy, I respectfully disagree. The efforts universities go through to prepare for and present themselves to the US News rankings is mind boggling. And I have serious questions about how "reputations" are calculated. This is not an exercise that can easily be quantified. That's why it's all BS.
On the question of getting a good education at any institution, I agree with you. I'm reminded of what a steelworker's son who grew up to be an engineer told me about college in the 1970s. He was a Vanderbilt engineering grad and told me, "college is what you put into it. Period!" He's right.
Marquette may be a better school for some people than Harvard. Sure, you won't rub elbows with the Kennedys at Marquette (I don't think), but at the undergraduate level at MU, you are taught by REAL professors, not someone trying to earn their way through graduate school.
As a side note, my Mother had a degree from UW-Superior and my father from Marquette. My degree is from Marquette and I went to UWS in the summer when I wasn't working. I can't speak to the whole university, but the classes I took at UWS weren't bad.
Oh I agree that institutions spend a lot of money on the rankings....but when I hear "bought and paid for" I think "bribery," but maybe you didn't mean that. Reputation rankings are done by sending out surveys to college presidents and the like.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 02, 2012, 09:31:10 AM
Oh I agree that institutions spend a lot of money on the rankings....but when I hear "bought and paid for" I think "bribery," but maybe you didn't mean that. Reputation rankings are done by sending out surveys to college presidents and the like.
I do live in Illinois, so "bought and paid for" could very well mean bribery. After all, the late Mike Royko wanted to change Chicago's motto to the Latin for "Where's mine?"
But you're right, that's not what I meant.
Bought and paid for in this context means millions of PR dollars poured into boosting rankings. The Wall Street Journal and Business Week both have highlighted the extreme efforts universities put into the US News rankings.
Quote from: real chili 83 on May 02, 2012, 08:22:55 AM
Anyone think ND is vastly over rated too?
Notre Dame is:
Nieman Marcus Name
Sax Fifth Avenue Price
Wal-Mart Education
Quote from: dgies9156 on May 02, 2012, 09:24:39 AM
Sultan, ole buddy, I respectfully disagree. The efforts universities go through to prepare for and present themselves to the US News rankings is mind boggling. And I have serious questions about how "reputations" are calculated. This is not an exercise that can easily be quantified. That's why it's all BS.
On the question of getting a good education at any institution, I agree with you. I'm reminded of what a steelworker's son who grew up to be an engineer told me about college in the 1970s. He was a Vanderbilt engineering grad and told me, "college is what you put into it. Period!" He's right.
Marquette may be a better school for some people than Harvard. Sure, you won't rub elbows with the Kennedys at Marquette (I don't think), but at the undergraduate level at MU, you are taught by REAL professors, not someone trying to earn their way through graduate school.
As a side note, my Mother had a degree from UW-Superior and my father from Marquette. My degree is from Marquette and I went to UWS in the summer when I wasn't working. I can't speak to the whole university, but the classes I took at UWS weren't bad. And my Mother was an extremely accomplished educator whose contribution to early childhood education was substantial.
Regarding UW-Superior, any school that is good enough for Arnold Schwartzenegger is good enough for me!
Seriously, though, who cares about what a bunch of random contributors to a sports forum think about any school's academic reputation?
Also, until there is an truly objective way to rank schools (which will never happen), there will always be passionate disagreement. There isn't even agreement on what broad criteria to determine a "good school" (Achievement in research? Career success? Career success given relative talent of students? Facilities?), much less how well particular schools meet that criteria.
And yes, the US News criteria is bull. For example, it uses the percentage of alum who donate as a major factor. That is more of a measure the effectiveness of a school's Advancement Department than the quality of education your kid would receive. It pains me to no end that Notre Dame's shameless arm-twisting of its alumni makes it a better school in US News's eyes than if they didn't.
Quote from: warriorchick on May 02, 2012, 10:25:03 AM
Regarding UW-Superior, any school that is good enough for Arnold Schwartzenegger is good enough for me!
Seriously, though, who cares about what a bunch of random contributors to a sports forum think about any school's academic reputation?
Also, until there is an truly objective way to rank schools (which will never happen), there will always be passionate disagreement. There isn't even agreement on what broad criteria to determine a "good school" (Achievement in research? Career success? Career success given relative talent of students? Facilities?), much less how well particular schools meet that criteria.
And yes, the US News criteria is bull. For example, it uses the percentage of alum who donate as a major factor. That is more of a measure the effectiveness of a school's Advancement Department than the quality of education your kid would receive. It pains me to no end that Notre Dame's shameless arm-twisting of its alumni makes it a better school in US News's eyes than if they didn't.
Not an ND apologist, by any means. But are you inferring many ND alums donate because they receive emails and calls, and are somewhat shamed into giving, rather than based on their own undergraduate experience at the school? I have never an alum who has ever said, I finally gave into donating because they kept writing and calling. That's backward-ass logic. If folks don't want to be hounded, then the last thing you should do is donate.
Quote from: warriorchick on May 02, 2012, 10:25:03 AM
Regarding UW-Superior, any school that is good enough for Arnold Schwartzenegger is good enough for me!
Seriously, though, who cares about what a bunch of random contributors to a sports forum think about any school's academic reputation?
Also, until there is an truly objective way to rank schools (which will never happen), there will always be passionate disagreement. There isn't even agreement on what broad criteria to determine a "good school" (Achievement in research? Career success? Career success given relative talent of students? Facilities?), much less how well particular schools meet that criteria.
And yes, the US News criteria is bull. For example, it uses the percentage of alum who donate as a major factor. That is more of a measure the effectiveness of a school's Advancement Department than the quality of education your kid would receive. It pains me to no end that Notre Dame's shameless arm-twisting of its alumni makes it a better school in US News's eyes than if they didn't.
The fundraising people tell me that "percentage of alumni participation" is the dumbest way to look at the effectiveness of a fund raising program anyway.
Quote from: reinko on May 02, 2012, 10:34:16 AM
Not an ND apologist, by any means. But are you inferring many ND alums donate because they receive emails and calls, and are somewhat shamed into giving, rather than based on their own undergraduate experience at the school? I have never an alum who has ever said, I finally gave into donating because they kept writing and calling. That's backward-ass logic. If folks don't want to be hounded, then the last thing you should do is donate.
I am not talking about your standard emails and phone call donation drives. I have been told of people who have been contacted by a fellow ND alum - who may be an important business contact or have other substantial influence - to ask why they haven't donated, or why their donations are so meager. If your boss, or a person with whom you are doing business (or hoping to do business) is asking those questions, you probably aren't going to tell them to go eff off.
I have even heard of these arm-twisting alum pulling out a sheet of paper with the donations of the other person's business colleagues and classmates listed on it to give him some guidelines as to the approriate size of the "gift".
Quote from: warriorchick on May 02, 2012, 11:03:06 AM
I am not talking about your standard emails and phone call donation drives. I have been told of people who have been contacted by a fellow ND alum - who may be an important business contact or have other substantial influence - to ask why they haven't donated, or why their donations are so meager. If your boss, or a person with whom you are doing business (or hoping to do business) is asking those questions, you probably aren't going to tell them to go eff off.
I have even heard of these arm-twisting alum pulling out a sheet of paper with the donations of the other person's business colleagues and classmates listed on it to give him some guidelines as to the approriate size of the "gift".
That seems like...such an ND way to do something.
Quote from: warriorchick on May 02, 2012, 10:25:03 AM
Regarding UW-Superior, any school that is good enough for Arnold Schwartzenegger is good enough for me!
Not to mention my Mother!!!!
There's one HUGE problem with UW-Superior! Ever been to Superior in January or February?
Heck, even Santa Claus thinks Superior is just too darn cold in January!!!
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on May 02, 2012, 11:14:33 AM
That seems like...such an ND way to do something.
My thoughts exactly. ND Alums are the original "Bro"s
Quote from: dgies9156 on May 02, 2012, 09:53:35 AMthe late Mike Royko wanted to change Chicago's motto to the Latin for "Where's mine?"
Mike Royko. That's a name from the past. When living overseas, I used to get the Intl Herald Tribune for the box scores and Royko's column. That man could write.
Quote from: warthog-driver on May 02, 2012, 06:05:00 PM
Mike Royko. That's a name from the past. When living overseas, I used to get the Intl Herald Tribune for the box scores and Royko's column. That man could write.
Best that ever was... best there ever will be...
Quote from: PTM on May 02, 2012, 06:15:01 PM
Best that ever was... best there ever will be...
Slats Grobnik. Ex-Cubs Factor. Tremendous.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 01, 2012, 10:12:33 PM
Surprised at how much hate they have for South Florida. Don't know enough about them to say they are that bad.
Well, my brother graduated from there..........
Think of them as UWM with a football team. Commuter school. Go there when you can't get into (in this order) UF, FSU, UCF
Ugly campus, Tampa is a pretty redneck city.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 02, 2012, 07:10:11 PM
Well, my brother graduated from there..........
Think of them as UWM with a football team. Commuter school. Go there when you can't get into (in this order) UF, FSU, UCF
Ugly campus, Tampa is a pretty redneck city.
From what I have seen there is some real, uh, talent on the USF campus. God bless 'em.
Quote from: warthog-driver on May 02, 2012, 07:47:18 PM
From what I have seen there is some real, uh, talent on the USF campus. God bless 'em.
I do remember fondly visiting my brother. he was living in psuedo campus housing. Between the two towers was a pool. I spent lots of time down there.
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 02, 2012, 08:19:54 PM
I do remember fondly visiting my brother. he was living in psuedo campus housing. Between the two towers was a pool. I spent lots of time down there.
Gotta give USF some credit. They've been making noise with both their football and basketball programs. Stan Heath did a great job last year. Football team beat ND last year in South Bend. ;D
If we are focusing on perception and not necessarily fact here are some examples.
I work for a sales team lead by a Chicago ND guy. He is constantly bragging to customers about his sales guys and their level of intelligence, and not to be arrogant but we are pretty sharp bunch. With that said the only schools our head of sales will mention when bragging about his guys is Marquette and one of my counterparts who went to Xavier.
Also, my girlfriend who is from Connecticut but went to NYU talks about UConn like she would be cleaning septic tanks right now had she gone there.
Quote from: Donnybrook on May 03, 2012, 12:23:04 PM
If we are focusing on perception and not necessarily fact here are some examples.
I work for a sales team lead by a Chicago ND guy. He is constantly bragging to customers about his sales guys and their level of intelligence, and not to be arrogant but we are pretty sharp bunch. With that said the only schools our head of sales will mention when bragging about his guys is Marquette and one of my counterparts who went to Xavier.
Also, my girlfriend who is from Connecticut but went to NYU talks about UConn like she would be cleaning septic tanks right now had she gone there.
Just curious - where did the other folks on your sales team go to school?
And in full disclosure, I admit I have made my share of arrogant remarks about my alma mater and bashed other schools. I am sure that my investment advisor (a very sharp guy, BTW) loves to tell people about the time he told me he graduated from NIU, and I replied, "Northern? That's the school I threaten my kids with when they bring home bad grades!"
To be fair, though, I should mention it was at a party and I had consumed several cocktails by that point.
Quote from: warriorchick on May 03, 2012, 01:41:15 PM
And in full disclosure, I admit I have made my share of arrogant remarks about my alma mater and bashed other schools. I am sure that my investment advisor (a very sharp guy, BTW) loves to tell people about the time he told me he graduated from NIU, and I replied, "Northern? That's the school I threaten my kids with when they bring home bad grades!"
To be fair, though, I should mention it was at a party and I had consumed several cocktails by that point.
Bashing the academic quality of University of Tennessee and, in fact, most of the public schools of the SEC, was a way of life where I grew up.
Q: What's the number one major at the University of Tennessee?
A: Alphabetical Studies
Q: What's a Phi Beta Kappa in Alphabetical Studies?
A: He knows his alphabet....... in order!
Q: What's the starting salary of a UT Alphabetical Studies Major?
A: It's bi-modal. Either $1.6 million with a $500,000 NFL signing bonus, or $8.25 per hour working at Bob's Liquors.
Quote from: dgies9156 on May 03, 2012, 04:14:04 PM
Bashing the academic quality of University of Tennessee and, in fact, most of the public schools of the SEC, was a way of life where I grew up.
Q: What's the number one major at the University of Tennessee?
A: Alphabetical Studies
Q: What's a Phi Beta Kappa in Alphabetical Studies?
A: He knows his alphabet....... in order!
Q: What's the starting salary of a UT Alphabetical Studies Major?
A: It's bi-modal. Either $1.6 million with a $500,000 NFL signing bonus, or $8.25 per hour working at Bob's Liquors.
You are obviously one of those snooty Vandy Fans.
Quote from: warriorchick on May 03, 2012, 04:22:39 PM
You are obviously one of those snooty Vandy Fans.
It is where I might have gone if I had not gotten into Marquette!!
Q: Do you know why God invented Vanderbilt University?
A: So Skip and Muffey from Belle Meade could mate with their own kind
(Note: Belle Meade is the South's version of zip code 90210, for all you non-Southerners out there)
Quote from: dgies9156 on May 03, 2012, 10:26:14 PM
It is where I might have gone if I had not gotten into Marquette!!
Q: Do you know why God invented Vanderbilt University?
A: So Skip and Muffey from Belle Meade could mate with their own kind
(Note: Belle Meade is the South's version of zip code 90210, for all you non-Southerners out there)
It's still Kentucky, I mean Tennessee. Is there difference?