nt
Quite a few people were disappointed that he accepted the South Carolina job right before Crean left thus taking him out of the running for MU.
I think it worked out ok.......
buh bye
Quote from: MuMark on March 13, 2012, 10:39:24 AM
Quite a few people were disappointed that he accepted the South Carolina job right before Crean left thus taking him out of the running for MU.
I think it worked out ok.......
Incomparable situations.
Horn is a very nice guy. Certainly hope he lands somewhere because he knows the game well.
Maybe he can join the assistant that Crean didn't take with him (not Buzz) to IU and coach in the Chinese league. Can't remember his name....
Quote from: lurch91 on March 13, 2012, 11:23:02 AM
Maybe he can join the assistant that Crean didn't take with him (not Buzz) to IU and coach in the Chinese league. Can't remember his name....
http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/082107aad.html
Quote from: lurch91 on March 13, 2012, 11:23:02 AM
Maybe he can join the assistant that Crean didn't take with him (not Buzz) to IU and coach in the Chinese league. Can't remember his name....
http://www.gomarquette.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/rabadeaux_jason00.html
Rabadeaux?
Jason Rabedeaux
That's it! How do you go from being an assistant coach to Director of Basketball Operations? Isn't the normal progression to go from Director of Basketball Operations to Assistant Coach?
Remember reading many rumors about Rabedeaux behavior, not sure if any was true. But it was explain how he went from Assistant Coach to Director of Basketball Operations.
He recruited Wade..big reason we landed him; although selling over MU over Bradley wasn't necessarily a tough sell.
Quote from: Knight Commission on March 13, 2012, 11:48:52 AM
He recruited Wade..big reason we landed him; although selling over MU over Bradley wasn't necessarily a tough sell.
Also instrumental in getting Diener.
Quote from: MuMark on March 13, 2012, 10:39:24 AM
Quite a few people were disappointed that he accepted the South Carolina job right before Crean left thus taking him out of the running for MU.
I think it worked out ok.......
I don't agree with this conclusion. Each situation is different. If Horn had followed Crean and inherited 3 NBA guys on the roster, who is to say we don't have an exceptional year and it keeps rolling for him. Horn had to step into a much different scenario.
When Cleveland fired Bellicheat, those other NFL teams that didn't hire him they probably said it worked out OK, too. When the Raiders fired Shanahan, those other teams that passed him up might have said the same thing. Of course, both Shanahan and Bellicheat have multiple Super Bowl titles after they got fired. The situations were different the next time they came into a job.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 12:11:07 PM
I don't agree with this conclusion. Each situation is different. If Horn had followed Crean and inherited 3 NBA guys on the roster, who is to say we don't have an exceptional year and it keeps rolling for him. Horn had to step into a much different scenario.
When Cleveland fired Bellicheat, those other NFL teams that didn't hire him they probably said it worked out OK, too. When the Raiders fired Shanahan, those other teams that passed him up might have said the same thing. Of course, both Shanahan and Bellicheat have multiple Super Bowl titles after they got fired. The situations were different the next time they came into a job.
Comparing pro football coaches to guys running college basketball programs is ridiculous. Let's go apples to apples - give us your long list of college basketball coaches who won big after failing miserably at their first high major job. To anybody with half a brain and an ounce of fairness it's clear that Buzz and Darrin aren't in the same league - and every D1 AD (including the one at South Carolina) would agree.
Darrin Horn's record got steadily worse at South Carolina. 21-10; 15-16; 14-16; 10-21.
I think the guy is a good mid-major coach, and I think if he would have stayed at WKU that he would have had a nice career there. (If you don't mind living in Bowling Green...terrible town.) That is probably where he will end up eventually.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 13, 2012, 12:39:42 PM
Comparing pro football coaches to guys running college basketball programs is ridiculous. Let's go apples to apples - give us your long list of college basketball coaches who won big after failing miserably at their first high major job. To anybody with half a brain and an ounce of fairness it's clear that Buzz and Darrin aren't in the same league - and every D1 AD (including the one at South Carolina) would agree.
I'm being absolutely fair. The situations for Buzz and Darrin were vastly different. Yes? Walking into the #2 basketball budget in the country with 3 NBA guys on the roster on the heels of 3 straight NCAA tournaments is different than walking into a Football crazed school with a modest basketball budget and 7 straight seasons without a winning record in SEC play. Do we agree on this?
Often you just need to get some success under your belt and things start cascading in the right direction to build up some credibility. By no means am I saying Horn is better than Buzz. I'm saying there are a number of coaches in this country that could have stepped into MU's situation in 2008 and done extremely well. Saying someone failed somewhere else under a completely different situation is not an appropriate comparison to say they would have failed at MU or anywhere else.
My comparison to football coaches is not ridiculous, it was just the easiest since ESPN had a snippet on them last night and was fresh in my head. I could use examples from any walk of life. Does a principal that is fired from one school because the school is littered with drugs, gangs, dropouts mean she can't succeed elsewhere? It has happened more than you think. The situation you walk into sets the stage. Look at your own comments about a certain coach you called a failure in his first three years and this year a rousing success. I remember the anti-Painter crowd when he went 9-20 or whatever it was, but he turned it around. Situations matter. It's not a negative, it is the reality we all face when we take an opportunity in any part of life.
Oh the mighty Crean coaching tree.
*cough* wannabe Izzo *cough*
My comparison to football coaches is not ridiculous, it was just the easiest since ESPN had a snippet on them last night and was fresh in my head. I could use examples from any walk of life. Does a principal that is fired from one school because the school is littered with drugs, gangs, dropouts mean she can't succeed elsewhere? It has happened more than you think. The situation you walk into sets the stage. Look at your own comments about a certain coach you called a failure in his first three years and this year a rousing success. I remember the anti-Painter crowd when he went 9-20 or whatever it was, but he turned it around. Situations matter. It's not a negative, it is the reality we all face when we take an opportunity in any part of life.
Why do you assume the principal is a she?
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 01:30:48 PM
I'm being absolutely fair. The situations for Buzz and Darrin were vastly different. Yes? Walking into the #2 basketball budget in the country with 3 NBA guys on the roster on the heels of 3 straight NCAA tournaments is different than walking into a Football crazed school with a modest basketball budget and 7 straight seasons without a winning record in SEC play. Do we agree on this?
Often you just need to get some success under your belt and things start cascading in the right direction to build up some credibility. By no means am I saying Horn is better than Buzz. I'm saying there are a number of coaches in this country that could have stepped into MU's situation in 2008 and done extremely well. Saying someone failed somewhere else under a completely different situation is not an appropriate comparison to say they would have failed at MU or anywhere else.
My comparison to football coaches is not ridiculous, it was just the easiest since ESPN had a snippet on them last night and was fresh in my head. I could use examples from any walk of life. Does a principal that is fired from one school because the school is littered with drugs, gangs, dropouts mean she can't succeed elsewhere? It has happened more than you think. The situation you walk into sets the stage. Look at your own comments about a certain coach you called a failure in his first three years and this year a rousing success. I remember the anti-Painter crowd when he went 9-20 or whatever it was, but he turned it around. Situations matter. It's not a negative, it is the reality we all face when we take an opportunity in any part of life.
If he is so good, explain then why his record got progressively worse?
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 12:11:07 PM
I don't agree with this conclusion. Each situation is different. If Horn had followed Crean and inherited 3 NBA guys on the roster, who is to say we don't have an exceptional year and it keeps rolling for him. Horn had to step into a much different scenario.
When Cleveland fired Bellicheat, those other NFL teams that didn't hire him they probably said it worked out OK, too. When the Raiders fired Shanahan, those other teams that passed him up might have said the same thing. Of course, both Shanahan and Bellicheat have multiple Super Bowl titles after they got fired. The situations were different the next time they came into a job.
You don't agree it worked out? What?
It doesn't matter what Darrin Horn could or could not have done at MU. What matters is what Buzz has done at MU. And, by all counts, it's worked out.
And enough with the "inherited three NBA guys on his roster." One of those "NBA guys" has played exactly zero NBA minutes. Another is teetering between the NBA and D League. The third is a players whose game took off after Buzz became head coach. You make it sound like the team was stocked with lottery picks.
Moreover, the program is now two full seasons removed from any of those players, stocked with players Buzz recruited and better than it's been since the FF season. So while Buzz has built and improved upon what he inherited, Horn's teams have gotten progressively worse.
Yep, it worked out.
FWIW, Tim Buckley was the main guy in landing Wade, not Horn.
All I said was it worked out ok that we got Buzz and not Horn.
Nobody could say with any certainty that Horn would have done better or worse at MU but considering we have made the NCAA every year since Buzz was hired, made the sweet 16 last year and earned a 3 seed this year with a totally new roster I think it's more then fair to say.....
It worked out ok.......
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 13, 2012, 03:58:29 PM
If he is so good, explain then why his record got progressively worse?
Is this getting progressively worse?
Year 1 24-3
Year 2 21-2
Year 3 19-5
Year 4 17-6
Year 5 15-8
Year 6 7-21
Year 7 6-18
Quote from: Pakuni on March 13, 2012, 04:26:22 PM
You don't agree it worked out? What?
I don't agree with the implication that someone else couldn't have done well also. The situations were different. That's how I read his post and looks like Golden Avalanche did as well. Buzz has done great. I'm not one of those people that believes he is the only person in America that could do great in that role.
Quote from: MuMark on March 13, 2012, 04:41:40 PM
All I said was it worked out ok that we got Buzz and not Horn.
Nobody could say with any certainty that Horn would have done better or worse at MU but considering we have made the NCAA every year since Buzz was hired, made the sweet 16 last year and earned a 3 seed this year with a totally new roster I think it's more then fair to say.....
It worked out ok.......
It's OK, Mark. Hoop has an alert - whenever anyone says anything even slightly positive about Buzz it goes off and he runs over here with the old "Buzz woke up on third base and thought he hit a triple" bs. Conveniently disregards that Buzz was left little for year 2 and nothing for years 3 and 4. Buzz rebuilt on the run while Horn oversaw his program's decline, but that won't stop Hoop from (wrongly) asserting this was a good luck/bad luck scenario.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 04:46:57 PM
Is this getting progressively worse?
Year 1 24-3
Year 2 21-2
Year 3 19-5
Year 4 17-6
Year 5 15-8
Year 6 7-21
Year 7 6-18
I'm sure you're trying to make some completely irrelevant point here, perhaps with another coach's record, but Horn's USC record is as follows:
Year 1 21-10
Year 2 15-16
Year 3 14-16
Year 4 10-21
Yeah, that's progressively worse.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 13, 2012, 05:04:41 PM
It's OK, Mark. Hoop has an alert - whenever anyone says anything even slightly positive about Buzz it goes off and he runs over here with the old "Buzz woke up on third base and thought he hit a triple" bs. Conveniently disregards that Buzz was left little for year 2 and nothing for years 3 and 4. Buzz rebuilt on the run while Horn oversaw his program's decline, but that won't stop Hoop from (wrongly) asserting this was a good luck/bad luck scenario.
I am the terror that flaps in the night...
HOOPIN!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-S3WxURGeqAE/TWflQbn0qhI/AAAAAAAADXw/wyTmHWJ9-9c/s1600/darkwing-duck-batman.jpg)
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 01:30:48 PM
I'm being absolutely fair. The situations for Buzz and Darrin were vastly different. Yes? Walking into the #2 basketball budget in the country with 3 NBA guys on the roster on the heels of 3 straight NCAA tournaments is different than walking into a Football crazed school with a modest basketball budget and 7 straight seasons without a winning record in SEC play. Do we agree on this?
Yeah, too bad Buzz didn't walk into a program fresh off a Final Four with 2 NBA guys on the roster and miss the tourney the next 2 years.
Get lost.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 04:46:57 PM
Is this getting progressively worse?
Year 1 24-3
Year 2 21-2
Year 3 19-5
Year 4 17-6
Year 5 15-8
Year 6 7-21
Year 7 6-18
Where do you get these numbers? Horn at S Carolina per Wikipedia:
year 1: 21-10, 10-6 conference
year 2: 15-16, 6-10
year 3: 14-16, 5-11
year 4: 10-21, 2-14
I'd say this record is the definition of getting progressively worse. By the time the program became totally his it was in freefall.
Quote from: jmayer1 on March 13, 2012, 05:17:00 PM
Yeah, too bad Buzz didn't walk into a program fresh off a Final Four with 2 NBA guys on the roster and miss the tourney the next 2 years.
Get lost.
Not to mention a future league MVP.
(Joe Chapman, British Basketball League MVP)
I'm curious why, when word arrives that South Carolina's coach got fired, we are subjected to comparisons to him and our current coach? Mind you, our current coach...4 years in...just guided us to our best Big East season ever, a #3 seed all this one year after a Sweet 16 as an 11 seed.
Who gives a CRAP what this guy might have done at MU? It's a completely idiotic premise! Who would drum up such a scenario?
I actually think Darrin Horn would have done a MUCH better job preparing us for the Kansas game in 2003 and we'd probably have won the national championship had he been given the opportunity when Deane got fired. It's a shame we'll never know.
I am begging the moderators to ban Chicos again. There is something the matter with him. Freeway's Facebook updates make more sense and are 100x more interesting.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 13, 2012, 05:17:51 PM
Where do you get these numbers? Horn at S Carolina per Wikipedia:
year 1: 21-10, 10-6 conference
year 2: 15-16, 6-10
year 3: 14-16, 5-11
year 4: 10-21, 2-14
I'd say this record is the definition of getting progressively worse. By the time the program became totally his it was in freefall.
Do we agree the numbers I posted show someone getting progressively worse? The answer is of course it is
That was the 7 year record of a guy named Al McGuire before he started at Marquette.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 13, 2012, 05:04:41 PM
It's OK, Mark. Hoop has an alert - whenever anyone says anything even slightly positive about Buzz it goes off and he runs over here with the old "Buzz woke up on third base and thought he hit a triple" bs. Conveniently disregards that Buzz was left little for year 2 and nothing for years 3 and 4. Buzz rebuilt on the run while Horn oversaw his program's decline, but that won't stop Hoop from (wrongly) asserting this was a good luck/bad luck scenario.
::) I said Buzz is doing great. Thought Buzz should have got Coach of the Year. Picked Buzz's team for 3rd place. I also said nowhere the Horn was better than Buzz. Didn't imply it. Didn't say it. Didn't think it. I did say that because someone failed somewhere else doesn't mean they would fail at MU in the same situation. I stick to that. People have failed elsewhere and other different circumstances done extremely well. I'm glad we have Buzz.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 13, 2012, 05:11:22 PM
I'm sure you're trying to make some completely irrelevant point here, perhaps with another coach's record, but Horn's USC record is as follows:
Year 1 21-10
Year 2 15-16
Year 3 14-16
Year 4 10-21
Yeah, that's progressively worse.
Yes, Horn's record is progressively worse. So was Al McGuire's that I shared. Bellicheat couldn't get over the hump in Cleveland. Shanahan couldn't get over the hump at Oakland. One could argue that Buzz Williams struggled at New Orleans. Yes? Different situations present different opportunities where coaches deemed failures suddenly become geniuses under a different situation. Feel free to disagree. That's what I thought we were talking about, but instead a few of feel there is an attack on Buzz. There is no such thing. I support Buzz and always have.
Every guy you cite struggled in their first head coaching job, learned from their mistakes and got better. Horn's arc is exactly the opposite.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 13, 2012, 05:50:58 PM
Every guy you cite struggled in their first head coaching job, learned from their mistakes and got better. Horn's arc is exactly the opposite.
That's a solid answer and one I agree with. Do you not also think the situation had anything to do with it? The inherited players (John Elway vs Vince Evans or Steve Buerlein) (Drew Bledsoe \ Tom Brady vs Vinny Testaverde)? The Organization (New Orleans vs Marquette) ? The situation (Football school vs basketball school)? Feel free to disagree if you wish.
There are, of course, examples of coaches who arced early with success, came down never to recover or those that rebounded back up as well. Or even some that have been up and down throughout their career.
Quickly skimming this thread, one of the things I do not see much of is how other coaches have also not fared well at South Carolina. Eddie Fogler went to the dance twice in 8 seasons and had a decline for several seasons near the end. Dave Odom went to the dance 1 time in 7 seasons. He also had a decline for several seasons near his end there.
Quote from: shoothoops on March 13, 2012, 06:01:25 PM
Quickly skimming this thread, one of the things I do not see much of is how other coaches have also not fared well at South Carolina. Eddie Fogler went to the dance twice in 8 seasons and had a decline for several seasons near the end. Dave Odom went to the dance 1 time in 7 seasons. He also had a decline for several seasons near his end there.
THIS. IS. RIGHT.
Situations matter. Horn's biggest mistake is not that he can't coach. His biggest mistake was taking a job where few have succeeded the last twenty years. Situations matter.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 06:03:53 PM
THIS. IS. RIGHT.
Situations matter. Horn's biggest mistake is not that he can't coach. His biggest mistake was taking a job where few have succeeded the last twenty years. Situations matter.
BUT IT GOT WORSE!!!
Look Chicos, I know you probably know the guy, but even if you buy the premise that he came into a bad situation, he wasn't even able to keep it even at the same level. We aren't talking about a fan-base with unrealistic expectations that the coach failed to meet. You are talking about a guy that INHERITED a program where he had enough talent to win 20 games, and four years later turned it into a program that lost 20 games.
And you think that has to do with the "situation?" Bullcrap.
It has to do with the situation (um, Horn, you should have done your homework and known what you were getting into)...
And it has to do with him (recruiting, promoting the program, coaching and developing players, in-game decisions, etc.).
So you really can't have one without the other.
So Horn goes like Kowalcyzk (former UWGB)...like Tim Buckley (former Ball State)...Kyle Green (former Lewis University).
Only Crean assistant still at his original HC position: Buzz.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 13, 2012, 07:12:59 PM
You are talking about a guy that INHERITED a program where he had enough talent to win 20 games, and four years later turned it into a program that lost 20 games.
Al took over a program that won 24 games and when he finished they won 6. Every situation is different. Was Al a lousy coach?
I'm not Chicos. I don't know Darrin Horn. I have never met Darrin Horn. My favorite color is green. I have run two marathons in my life. Spring is my favorite time of year. I hate beets. World peace would be cool.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 09:51:33 PM
Al took over a program that won 24 games and when he finished they won 6. Every situation is different. Was Al a lousy coach?
I'm not Chicos. I don't know Darrin Horn. I have never met Darrin Horn. My favorite color is green. I have run two marathons in my life. Spring is my favorite time of year. I hate beets. World peace would be cool.
Then I guess you can never, ever say any coach is a bad coach since there are always different situations. This thread is riduculous. Why do you even give a crap if people think Horn proved he wasn't a good coach?
Freeway has a Facebook page?? Holy crap!!!! I gotta become Facebook friends with that guy....What is his name on Facebook so I can find him????
Quote from: jmayer1 on March 13, 2012, 10:07:57 PM
Then I guess you can never, ever say any coach is a bad coach since there are always different situations. This thread is riduculous. Why do you even give a crap if people think Horn proved he wasn't a good coach?
If you believe that, fine. I certainly don't. There are some coaches that won't do well at any level or any situation. Others need the right situation. How has Kevin O'Neill done since he left Marquette?
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 09:51:33 PM
Al took over a program that won 24 games and when he finished they won 6. Every situation is different. Was Al a lousy coach?
I'm not Chicos. I don't know Darrin Horn. I have never met Darrin Horn. My favorite color is green. I have run two marathons in my life. Spring is my favorite time of year. I hate beets. World peace would be cool.
I met Al. Darrin is no Al. Comparisons are ludicrous, even by your standards. You do recall that Freshman were not eligible back then, right?
But, back to the matter, the comment that so offended you was accurate and your muddying the argument has done nothing to change that.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 13, 2012, 09:51:33 PM
Al took over a program that won 24 games and when he finished they won 6. Every situation is different. Was Al a lousy coach?
Darrin Horn is not Al McGuire. Al McGuire came to a dinky Catholic school backwater and turned it into a national power at a time when college basketball was pretty much an afterthought. Darrin Horn took over a BCS-level program that won 20 games and turned it into one that lost 20 games.
Look, you say you aren't Chicos. But you certainly love to make illogical arguments-for-the-sake-of-arguments like he used to.
Bottom line...it is a STUPID comparison.
Quote from: MUMac on March 14, 2012, 06:21:43 AM
I met Al. Darrin is no Al. Comparisons are ludicrous, even by your standards. You do recall that Freshman were not eligible back then, right?
But, back to the matter, the comment that so offended you was accurate and your muddying the argument has done nothing to change that.
I'm not offended. It is not a stupid comparison. What would this board think today if one of the candidates for a Marquette opening job had taken a team in his first year with 24 wins and 7 years later had 6? Al is a great coach. I don't know if Horn is. I am no comparing Horn to Al or anyone else. I politely pointed out that there have been other coaches, including our own, that have had their teams regress considerably and still turned out ok. That is all it was.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on March 14, 2012, 01:32:40 PM
I'm not offended. It is not a stupid comparison. What would this board think today if one of the candidates for a Marquette opening job had taken a team in his first year with 24 wins and 7 years later had 6? Al is a great coach. I don't know if Horn is. I am no comparing Horn to Al or anyone else. I politely pointed out that there have been other coaches, including our own, that have had their teams regress considerably and still turned out ok. That is all it was.
Today or back then? As Al delivered, MU is a much different place than it was when he arrived. MU is making it's 30th NCAA appearnace (would be 31, but Al declined one year). Prior to Al, MU made a whopping 3. We often kid UW that they believe College Basketball started in 1990. Well, at MU, it may have been 1968.
But, why do you keep bringing Al up? Because that is your only defense of the comment that Horn's tenure got progressively worse? As Pakuni pointed out - IT HAD. And, I hate to break this to you, Al had NOTHING to do with it!!!!!