Jae has been doing it all and covering all of our weaknesses during this stretch of play from him. Tonight he wasn't quite as amazing as he has been and the weakness down low was evident from the first 2 minutes on. It was a tough place to play, a much needed win for Cincy, and Senior night. It was a perfect storm, but we NEED Gardner back to make any noise in the Big East Tourney, and the NCAA's without him the recipe to beat MU is very obvious.
Quote from: jhags15 on February 29, 2012, 07:53:34 PM
Jae has been doing it all and covering all of our weaknesses during this stretch of play from him. Tonight he wasn't quite as amazing as he has been and the weakness down low was evident from the first 2 minutes on. It was a tough place to play, a much needed win for Cincy, and Senior night. It was a perfect storm, but we NEED Gardner back to make any noise in the Big East Tourney, and the NCAA's without him the recipe to beat MU is very obvious.
Great game plan by the Bearcats. Zone killed us.
The double bye will give a few extra days for him if he can't go for Georgetown.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 29, 2012, 08:04:34 PM
Great game plan by the Bearcats. Zone killed us.
They played like I thought WVU or UConn would against MU. With a fire in their belly. They wanted it more and got it. MU didn't play as poorly as they played well.
I know this may annoy some, so sue me. But, the idea of this team w/ Davante and Otule still gets me frustrated. Can't complain in anyway about this season - maybe the best regular season I've ever seen, but still its tough to think about.
Quote from: MUMac on February 29, 2012, 08:06:24 PM
MU didn't play as poorly as they played well.
I agree with this. Cincy played a GREAT game, but we were poorer offensively than I've seen us in a while. Some of that was their length (I guess), but a lot just seemed like there was a lid on the rim. Feels like every once in a while MU catches the "can't score" bug...and it's contagious, unfortunately.
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 29, 2012, 08:08:18 PM
I know this may annoy assume, so sue me. But, the idea of this team w/ Davante and Otule still gets me frustrated. Can't complain in anyway about this season - maybe the best regular season I've ever seen, but still its tough to think about.
At the beginning of very season I think how great it would be to [insert graduated senior here] on THIS team. This might be the first time I've ever done that for people on the team. Its been such a great season I'm not complaining...but it does go to show just how perfect everything needs to go to be a magical season.
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 29, 2012, 08:08:18 PMI know this may annoy assume, so sue me. But, the idea of this team w/ Davante and Otule still gets me frustrated. Can't complain in anyway about this season - maybe the best regular season I've ever seen, but still its tough to think about.
Right there with you. I honestly think had we stayed healthy, we'd currently be the third 1-seed. Maybe even the second. On the plus side, their injuries provided valuable experience that will pay off in the next 2 years.
We definitely missed Garner tonight to plug up the middle and get some rebounds. Jae played well on defense we just had no rotation to help out. Juan Anderson killed us when he was in there. Tough night to score
Quote from: elephantraker on February 29, 2012, 10:08:53 PM
We definitely missed Garner tonight to plug up the middle and get some rebounds. Jae played well on defense we just had no rotation to help out. Juan Anderson killed us when he was in there. Tough night to score
Yeah, Juan is kinda out of position though. He is not built for the 4 really, and his body is gonna take a while to come around so he can. I know he's taller than Jae, Lazar, Wes and at least as tall as Jimmy - but his play and mannerisms scream a kid that is still getting used to how long and athletic his body really is. Its hard to gain that coordination quickly when you grow so fast. But by Junior yr, Juan could be this team's #1, playing the 3 next to Jamil, Taylor, Gardner, Durley AND Otule - think about that.
Juan is lost... This recruiting class is starting to fall off.
Quote from: THEultimateWARRIOR on March 01, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
Juan is lost... This recruiting class is starting to fall off.
Maybe someone should find him then?
Quote from: THEultimateWARRIOR on March 01, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
Juan is lost... This recruiting class is starting to fall off.
I can tell you haven't been around awhile.
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 29, 2012, 10:23:37 PM
Yeah, Juan is kinda out of position though. He is not built for the 4 really, and his body is gonna take a while to come around so he can. I know he's taller than Jae, Lazar, Wes and at least as tall as Jimmy - but his play and mannerisms scream a kid that is still getting used to how long and athletic his body really is. Its hard to gain that coordination quickly when you grow so fast. But by Junior yr, Juan could be this team's #1, playing the 3 next to Jamil, Taylor, Gardner, Durley AND Otule - think about that.
Next year I expect that Juan will be Vander's back up as a wing....unless the bench is shortened. He isn't a four, and would only play in that position IMO when Buzz wants to go small. I expect that Taylor will be Jamil's back up next year.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 01, 2012, 09:10:36 AM
Next year I expect that Juan will be Vander's back up as a wing....unless the bench is shortened. He isn't a four, and would only play in that position IMO when Buzz wants to go small. I expect that Taylor will be Jamil's back up next year.
Caddy/Mayo/Blue/Wilson/Gardner?
You're Taylor reference threw me off for a second, then remembered Steve Taylor, not TJ Taylor.
Quote from: PTM on March 01, 2012, 09:08:45 AM
I can tell you haven't been around awhile.
Oh yea? What is wrong with what I said? Its like you cant say anything on this board without being criticized...sorry that with having two players out its frustrating to see Juan running around like a chicken with his head cut off. Derek Wilson scores 0 points, absolutely no threat offensively. Mayo was 1-18 on three point attempts before yesterday and hes been suspended for violating team rules. So yea maybe someone does need to find them because this class has been a joke especially for a top 10 basketball team. Granted they dont get that much playing time but its like that for a reason we get destroyed when Juan is in the game. It was very clear yesterday.
Quote from: PTM on March 01, 2012, 09:14:32 AM
Caddy/Mayo/Blue/Wilson/Gardner?
You're Taylor reference threw me off for a second, then remembered Steve Taylor, not TJ Taylor.
Are those your starters next year? I would think Otule would start whenever he's healthy. I would more or less agree with the rest, at least to begin the season.
Quote from: PTM on March 01, 2012, 09:14:32 AM
Caddy/Mayo/Blue/Wilson/Gardner?
You're Taylor reference threw me off for a second, then remembered Steve Taylor, not TJ Taylor.
I expect that you nailed the starting line-up. Except TJ Taylor might be the other starting guard. And Otule maybe ahead of Gardner, but it really won't matter because my guess is their minutes might be more equal next year...if not more for Davante.
I just don't think you can have Blue and then either Jones or Anderson start. Not enough offense on the floor. No deep threats.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on March 01, 2012, 09:18:15 AM
Are those your starters next year? I would think Otule would start whenever he's healthy. I would more or less agree with the rest, at least to begin the season.
I was asking Sultan if those were his starters.
Quote from: THEultimateWARRIOR on March 01, 2012, 09:16:08 AM
Oh yea? What is wrong with what I said? Its like you cant say anything on this board without being criticized...sorry that with having two players out its frustrating to see Juan running around like a chicken with his head cut off. Derek Wilson scores 0 points, absolutely no threat offensively. Mayo was 1-18 on three point attempts before yesterday and hes been suspended for violating team rules. So yea maybe someone does need to find them because this class has been a joke especially for a top 10 basketball team. Granted they dont get that much playing time but its like that for a reason we get destroyed when Juan is in the game. It was very clear yesterday.
Can you tell me what your expectations are for the freshman?
Quote from: THEultimateWARRIOR on March 01, 2012, 09:16:08 AM
Oh yea? What is wrong with what I said? Its like you cant say anything on this board without being criticized...sorry that with having two players out its frustrating to see Juan running around like a chicken with his head cut off. Derek Wilson scores 0 points, absolutely no threat offensively. Mayo was 1-18 on three point attempts before yesterday and hes been suspended for violating team rules. So yea maybe someone does need to find them because this class has been a joke especially for a top 10 basketball team. Granted they dont get that much playing time but its like that for a reason we get destroyed when Juan is in the game. It was very clear yesterday.
I understand your frustration because these guys have been forced to play important minutes at times. But we don't need wilson to score. I have no problem whatsoever with what he brings to the table. Anderson is a little lost, absolutely. But if Gardner and Otule are healthy, he doesn't see the floor anyway. Mayo's shot has gone awry, but he still competes on the defensive end, grabs rebounds, and gets to the hole and draws fouls on offense. These guys were not recruited to be immediate impact players, and to expect that is silly. To say the recruiting class is falling off is just plain wrong...it's what should be expected from freshman.
No inside information... but Gardner was noticeably limping, even if he was in uniform. I would be (pleasantly) surprised if we see him Saturday.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on March 01, 2012, 09:24:30 AM
I understand your frustration because these guys have been forced to play important minutes at times. But we don't need wilson to score. I have no problem whatsoever with what he brings to the table. Anderson is a little lost, absolutely. But if Gardner and Otule are healthy, he doesn't see the floor anyway. Mayo's shot has gone awry, but he still competes on the defensive end, grabs rebounds, and gets to the hole and draws fouls on offense. These guys were not recruited to be immediate impact players, and to expect that is silly. To say the recruiting class is falling off is just plain wrong...it's what should be expected from freshman.
Exactly.
Quote from: PTM on March 01, 2012, 09:22:32 AM
Can you tell me what your expectations are for our freshman?
Since you continue to bash me I will tell you. My expectations for a freshman recruiting class would be to have the same level or better freshman then the other big east schools. I think that's a fair expectation....Freshman at the following Big East schools are having a bigger impact then any of our freshman: St. Johns, Providence, Rutgers, Notre Dame, UConn, South Florida, Louisville, Depaul, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall. West Virginia is a push with Jabarie Hinds averaging about the same as Mayo. Syracuse does not because their team is stacked with upperclassmen. Cincy and Pitt did not have impact freshman either.
Virtually out of 16 teams in the big east we have one of the bottom 3 classes. Sorry that I believe we should be in at least the top half of the conference. I think that it is expected, but not happening.
That being said. It's funny to prove someone like you wrong who does no research before saying pointless things. If you would like me to go further and list stats for all Big East freshman I will, but your really not worth my time.
Quote from: PVMagic on March 01, 2012, 09:28:07 AM
No inside information... but Gardner was noticeably limping, even if he was in uniform. I would be (pleasantly) surprised if we see him Saturday.
I had noticed the same thing when he was walking off after the WV game. Not real encouraging.
Disappointed with this year's freshmen? Happy about this year's freshmen?
Come see me a year from now and I'll let you know.
Quote from: MU82 on March 01, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
Disappointed with this year's freshmen? Happy about this year's freshmen?
Come see me a year from now and I'll let you know.
2 years from now would be better, sometimes 3.
Quote from: hairyworthen on March 01, 2012, 10:39:11 AM
2 years from now would be better, sometimes 3.
You're probably right about that.
Quote from: THEultimateWARRIOR on March 01, 2012, 09:59:26 AM
Since you continue to bash me I will tell you. My expectations for a freshman recruiting class would be to have the same level or better freshman then the other big east schools. I think that's a fair expectation....Freshman at the following Big East schools are having a bigger impact then any of our freshman:St. Johns, Providence, Rutgers, Notre Dame, UConn, South Florida, Louisville, Depaul, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall. West Virginia is a push with Jabarie Hinds averaging about the same as Mayo. Syracuse does not because their team is stacked with upperclassmen. Cincy and Pitt did not have impact freshman either.
Virtually out of 16 teams in the big east we have one of the bottom 3 classes. Sorry that I believe we should be in at least the top half of the conference. I think that it is expected, but not happening.
That being said. It's funny to prove someone like you wrong who does no research before saying pointless things. If you would like me to go further and list stats for all Big East freshman I will, but your really not worth my time.
I think you just answered your own question. I guess your expectations are to be a worse team with freshmen that get better numbers. I'd rather be associated w/ Syracuse -a team that has and continues to develop its talent so it doesn't rely on freshmen.
Quote from: THEultimateWARRIOR on March 01, 2012, 09:59:26 AM
If you would like me to go further and list stats for all Big East freshman I will, but your really not worth my time.
St. Johns and Rutgers are totally different situations, as they are terrible teams with minutes to give away. To that point, I believe St. Johns starts five freshman and Rutgers starts three. Those guys are going to get their numbers by default.
Uconn has a better class, but it was also a top 3 rated class in the country once they added Drummond.
Providence is similar to Rutgers in that they are not good and had minutes to give away. Henton is playing very well, averaging 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg, but that's in 37 mpg. Mayo is averaging 8.1 and 2.6 in 21 minutes per game. On a per minute basis, Mayo is actually outscoring Henton (.39 ppm to .38 ppm) Providence has 2 other true freshman. They have appeared in one game combined. I would say advantage MU, or no worse than a push.
Depaul, again, is terrible. They have three freshman. The best is Crockett, who is averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 18 minutes per game. Basically identical numbers to Mayo. The other two freshman average 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg combined in 27 mpg. Again, I would say this is a push.
Nova is awful. Pinkston is a redshirt freshman, and thus doesn't count. The best true freshman is Hilliard, averaging 5.1 ppg and 2.5 rpg in 19 minutes. Mayo is better in the same number of minutes. The other three freshman combined average 8.9 ppg and 4.5 rpg in 45 mpg. I would again say a push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.
Notre Dame has one true freshman, Pat Connaughton (jerian grant is a redshirt freshman). He averages 7.0 ppg and 4.6 rpg in 24 mpg. Again, Mayo outscores him. With our depth, advantage MU.
Seton Hall has 6 freshman. The best is Cosby, averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 30 mpg. Mayo duplicates those numbers in 10 less mpg. The other FIVE freshman combine to average 10.3 ppg and 7.1 rpg in 49 mpg. Again, I would say push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.
South Florida has one freshman in Anthony Collins. He's been very good as their starting PG. He averages 7.8 ppg, 2 rpg and 5.5 apg in 32 mpg. Mayo outscores and outrebounds him in less minutes per game. Again, I would say no worse than a push.
Louisville has 5 freshman. Behanan has been the best, averaging 9.3 ppg and 7.6 rpg in 25 mpg. They also have Blackshear, who has been hurt, but is a stud. The 3 other freshman average 3.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg I give the edge to Louisville, but it's not clear cut since Blackshear has been hurt.
Georgetown has 5 freshman as well. Otto Porter has been the best, averaging 8.7 ppg and 6.8 rpg in 29 mpg. Mayo outscores him on a per minute basis, but Porter has been very good. The rest of the freshmen average 11.9 ppg and 5.8 rpg in 44 mpg. I would give the advantage to G-town but it's not overwhelming.
By your admittance, MU has a better class than Pitt, Cincy and Cuse. Their class, as shown by the above statistics, is as good of a class as (or better than) Providence, ND, USF, Depaul, Nova, Seton Hall and WVU (your admittance). The class is probably not as good as Rutgers, St. Johns, Uconn, Georgetown or Louisville. In other words, this is an average class in the Big East, and a strong argument can be made that it is in the upper half. But I'm curious to see what your statistics show...
Well played dwaderoy. We are getting more out of this recruiting class, and this team than any of us ever could have expected to start the year. We had posts of "Who is our leader?" before this year. Jae and DJO have answered that and led us to where we are. If there is no third option like Van, Todd, and Jamil have been in spurts in games we won't be doing too much.
It would be easier to tout our freshmen if Mayo was still playing like the November-December-January guy that had some overly excitable types worried he would be bolting early to the NBA.
Let's be honest ... offensively, he has been a disaster for more than a month now. I went from screaming for him to shoot to screaming at him to never shoot. He draws a few fouls with drives but just as often is out of control and jumps without knowing where he is going.
He is a good defender, though, and certainly appears to work hard. I continue to have hope that he will make the next step in 2012-13.
Derrick Wilson has done fine in his role. Anderson has been behind from the get-go and has shown precious little, so we'll see.
With our established players getting most minutes and with Buzz's shortened rotation, the best (and worst) grade we can give to our freshman is Incomplete. The same is true of most freshman classes in the Big East.
Quote from: StillWarriors on March 01, 2012, 10:29:03 AM
I had noticed the same thing when he was walking off after the WV game. Not real encouraging.
Davante kind of shuffles along injury or not. Probably wearing a brace too. Not sure what to make of it.
Quote from: Nukem2 on March 01, 2012, 11:49:48 AM
Davante kind of shuffles along injury or not. Probably wearing a brace too. Not sure what to make of it.
He was brace-less against UC. From about 20 yards, he was definitely favoring his knee. Still, meaningless, but did not look like a guy ready to go.
Over a month, I thought he would be running by now! We need him for the tourny
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on March 01, 2012, 11:14:45 AM
St. Johns and Rutgers are totally different situations, as they are terrible teams with minutes to give away. To that point, I believe St. Johns starts five freshman and Rutgers starts three. Those guys are going to get their numbers by default.
Uconn has a better class, but it was also a top 3 rated class in the country once they added Drummond.
Providence is similar to Rutgers in that they are not good and had minutes to give away. Henton is playing very well, averaging 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg, but that's in 37 mpg. Mayo is averaging 8.1 and 2.6 in 21 minutes per game. On a per minute basis, Mayo is actually outscoring Henton (.39 ppm to .38 ppm) Providence has 2 other true freshman. They have appeared in one game combined. I would say advantage MU, or no worse than a push.
Depaul, again, is terrible. They have three freshman. The best is Crockett, who is averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 18 minutes per game. Basically identical numbers to Mayo. The other two freshman average 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg combined in 27 mpg. Again, I would say this is a push.
Nova is awful. Pinkston is a redshirt freshman, and thus doesn't count. The best true freshman is Hilliard, averaging 5.1 ppg and 2.5 rpg in 19 minutes. Mayo is better in the same number of minutes. The other three freshman combined average 8.9 ppg and 4.5 rpg in 45 mpg. I would again say a push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.
Notre Dame has one true freshman, Pat Connaughton (jerian grant is a redshirt freshman). He averages 7.0 ppg and 4.6 rpg in 24 mpg. Again, Mayo outscores him. With our depth, advantage MU.
Seton Hall has 6 freshman. The best is Cosby, averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 30 mpg. Mayo duplicates those numbers in 10 less mpg. The other FIVE freshman combine to average 10.3 ppg and 7.1 rpg in 49 mpg. Again, I would say push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.
South Florida has one freshman in Anthony Collins. He's been very good as their starting PG. He averages 7.8 ppg, 2 rpg and 5.5 apg in 32 mpg. Mayo outscores and outrebounds him in less minutes per game. Again, I would say no worse than a push.
Louisville has 5 freshman. Behanan has been the best, averaging 9.3 ppg and 7.6 rpg in 25 mpg. They also have Blackshear, who has been hurt, but is a stud. The 3 other freshman average 3.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg I give the edge to Louisville, but it's not clear cut since Blackshear has been hurt.
Georgetown has 5 freshman as well. Otto Porter has been the best, averaging 8.7 ppg and 6.8 rpg in 29 mpg. Mayo outscores him on a per minute basis, but Porter has been very good. The rest of the freshmen average 11.9 ppg and 5.8 rpg in 44 mpg. I would give the advantage to G-town but it's not overwhelming.
By your admittance, MU has a better class than Pitt, Cincy and Cuse. Their class, as shown by the above statistics, is as good of a class as (or better than) Providence, ND, USF, Depaul, Nova, Seton Hall and WVU (your admittance). The class is probably not as good as Rutgers, St. Johns, Uconn, Georgetown or Louisville. In other words, this is an average class in the Big East, and a strong argument can be made that it is in the upper half. But I'm curious to see what your statistics show...
Great analysis. I think it is fair to say Marquette does not have a Top Five freshmen class this year. However saying we are in the bottom three seemed a bit over the top to me.
Mayo has twice been credited as our SOG. The talent he showed early on isn't gone, and is bound to reappear eventually (hopefully soon). DWil was instrumental in a win over a (then) top 10 team on the road. Juan has shown flashes but is clearly not strong enough to play a ton of minutes. Injuries have forced us to rely/need them more than we'd hoped, but I'll care more about where they rank as a class when they are sophs/juniors/seniors.
Quote from: PVMagic on March 01, 2012, 11:59:09 AM
Mayo has twice been credited as our SOG. The talent he showed early on isn't gone, and is bound to reappear eventually (hopefully soon). DWil was instrumental in a win over a (then) top 10 team on the road. Juan has shown flashes but is clearly not strong enough to play a ton of minutes. Injuries have forced us to rely/need them more than we'd hoped, but I'll care more about where they rank as a class when they are sophs/juniors/seniors.
But we just lost a game and our freshman looked bad.
/conveniently forgets the previous 29 games of the 2011-2012 season
//wanking motion
Freshmen need time to play and know how to pace themselves during a game.
It's hard when you get minutes here and there, and even harder when the HC has to play the vets to get the victory.
Give them time.
Juan and Mayo will be great seniors.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on March 01, 2012, 12:07:29 PM
Juan and Mayo will be great seniors.
I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on March 01, 2012, 11:14:45 AM
St. Johns and Rutgers are totally different situations, as they are terrible teams with minutes to give away. To that point, I believe St. Johns starts five freshman and Rutgers starts three. Those guys are going to get their numbers by default.
Uconn has a better class, but it was also a top 3 rated class in the country once they added Drummond.
Providence is similar to Rutgers in that they are not good and had minutes to give away. Henton is playing very well, averaging 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg, but that's in 37 mpg. Mayo is averaging 8.1 and 2.6 in 21 minutes per game. On a per minute basis, Mayo is actually outscoring Henton (.39 ppm to .38 ppm) Providence has 2 other true freshman. They have appeared in one game combined. I would say advantage MU, or no worse than a push.
Depaul, again, is terrible. They have three freshman. The best is Crockett, who is averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 18 minutes per game. Basically identical numbers to Mayo. The other two freshman average 5.1 ppg and 3.7 rpg combined in 27 mpg. Again, I would say this is a push.
Nova is awful. Pinkston is a redshirt freshman, and thus doesn't count. The best true freshman is Hilliard, averaging 5.1 ppg and 2.5 rpg in 19 minutes. Mayo is better in the same number of minutes. The other three freshman combined average 8.9 ppg and 4.5 rpg in 45 mpg. I would again say a push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.
Notre Dame has one true freshman, Pat Connaughton (jerian grant is a redshirt freshman). He averages 7.0 ppg and 4.6 rpg in 24 mpg. Again, Mayo outscores him. With our depth, advantage MU.
Seton Hall has 6 freshman. The best is Cosby, averaging 8.3 ppg and 2.2 rpg in 30 mpg. Mayo duplicates those numbers in 10 less mpg. The other FIVE freshman combine to average 10.3 ppg and 7.1 rpg in 49 mpg. Again, I would say push at worst, possible advantage MU for having the best freshman.
South Florida has one freshman in Anthony Collins. He's been very good as their starting PG. He averages 7.8 ppg, 2 rpg and 5.5 apg in 32 mpg. Mayo outscores and outrebounds him in less minutes per game. Again, I would say no worse than a push.
Louisville has 5 freshman. Behanan has been the best, averaging 9.3 ppg and 7.6 rpg in 25 mpg. They also have Blackshear, who has been hurt, but is a stud. The 3 other freshman average 3.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg I give the edge to Louisville, but it's not clear cut since Blackshear has been hurt.
Georgetown has 5 freshman as well. Otto Porter has been the best, averaging 8.7 ppg and 6.8 rpg in 29 mpg. Mayo outscores him on a per minute basis, but Porter has been very good. The rest of the freshmen average 11.9 ppg and 5.8 rpg in 44 mpg. I would give the advantage to G-town but it's not overwhelming.
By your admittance, MU has a better class than Pitt, Cincy and Cuse. Their class, as shown by the above statistics, is as good of a class as (or better than) Providence, ND, USF, Depaul, Nova, Seton Hall and WVU (your admittance). The class is probably not as good as Rutgers, St. Johns, Uconn, Georgetown or Louisville. In other words, this is an average class in the Big East, and a strong argument can be made that it is in the upper half. But I'm curious to see what your statistics show...
Why wouldn't you count a redshirt freshman? They are still considered freshman in my book. Very Good analysis but why all the bias for Mayo? I could go through every stat like that and say rebound per minute basis, assist per minute basis and so on like you did for Mayo for all the other guys. Don't get me wrong I love Mayo he has exceeded all expectations for himself. Its Juan and Derek that are disappointing.
And your crazy if you think that Colins isn't a better player. He is shooting 50% from the floor, ranks 6th in assists in the BEAST 5.5 apg, 85% free throw shooter, he has averaged 11.1 ppg as a point guard in the last 9 games. Steadily increased while Mayo has declined. Not sure how you get a push here.
Also not sure how you think Providence is MU advantage...you listed the stats. Henton 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg! That's insane for a freshman. He could be averaging a double-double next year as a sophomore. They have similar ppm as you say but NO WAY Mayo has the impact like Henton has. He was getting those numbers playing with a terrible team around him.
The other teams I listed as having better freshman then MU fall under the redshirt category so it can go either way.
So if you don't think that redshirts count as "freshman" even though they are still considered freshman...you would be correct
Quote from: windyplayer on March 01, 2012, 12:12:20 PM
I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.
Do you remember Vander Blue this time last year? He was beyond horrific. It is only a year later and he is a very solid contributor as a soph. Now I think he will be very good by the end of his career, but I couldn't see it last year. I would reserve judgement on Anderson just yet. He's got tools, just needs a little seasoning. I will concede that he is not at all helpful at the moment.
Quote from: windyplayer on March 01, 2012, 12:12:20 PM
I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.
Go back and look at JFB's first year in the program, not that much difference between him and Juan except there is more talent in front of Juan preventing him from playing.
Players make the biggest leap between freshmen and sophomore year. I'm willing to bet this time next year we'll be talking about how high is Juan's ceiling.
Quote from: windyplayer on March 01, 2012, 12:12:20 PM
I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.
Please refer to "highlights" of Jimmy Butler as a sophomore before posting like this. Especially the first half of the season.
Quote from: THEultimateWARRIOR on March 01, 2012, 12:19:15 PM
Why wouldn't you count a redshirt freshman? They are still considered freshman in my book.
Why does everyone refer to a freshman as a "redshirt" or "true" if they are the exact same thing? Doesn't that suggest that they are inherently different?
EDIT:
Also, you're establishing that you don't know shi*t when it comes to your grammar.
Quote from: strotty on March 01, 2012, 12:23:14 PM
Please refer to "highlights" of Jimmy Butler as a sophomore before posting like this. Especially the first half of the season.
Yes, he could be great (see qualifier in post), but at least Jimmy could hit the occassionally jumper and Blue would have flashes of his athleticism. There's not one thing that gives me hope (other than the occasional rebound) except the fact that he's young with room to grow--which is not to be understated, but not to be depended on either.
Quote from: THEultimateWARRIOR on March 01, 2012, 12:19:15 PM
Why wouldn't you count a redshirt freshman? They are still considered freshman in my book.
Well, because they have practiced with the team for a year already. A true freshman has no such advantage.
QuoteVery Good analysis but why all the bias for Mayo? I could go through every stat like that and say rebound per minute basis, assist per minute basis and so on like you did for Mayo for all the other guys. Don't get me wrong I love Mayo he has exceeded all expectations for himself. Its Juan and Derek that are disappointing.
Go for it. See if it helps you at all...
QuoteAnd your crazy if you think that Colins isn't a better player. He is shooting 50% from the floor, ranks 6th in assists in the BEAST 5.5 apg, 85% free throw shooter, he has averaged 11.1 ppg as a point guard in the last 9 games. Steadily increased while Mayo has declined. Not sure how you get a push here.
Because Mayo outscores and outrebounds him in 11 less minutes per game. Mayo shoots 79% from the free throw line. I would agree that Collins has had more impact than Mayo. But he's USF's only Freshman. Derrick Wilson started, on the road, against Wisconsin. And we won. I say push.
QuoteAlso not sure how you think Providence is MU advantage...you listed the stats. Henton 14.2 ppg and 8.5 rpg! That's insane for a freshman. He could be averaging a double-double next year as a sophomore. They have similar ppm as you say but NO WAY Mayo has the impact like Henton has. He was getting those numbers playing with a terrible team around him.
He's averaging those number in 37 mpg. The one game this year that Mayo played more than 30 minutes, he went for 22, 5 and 4. Henton gets those numbers cause they have no one else. And the rest of the recruiting class has played ONE GAME COMBINED. Wilson, at least, provides valuable minutes. For the whole class, again, I say advantage MU, or no worse than a push.
Your criteria was based on the entire freshman recruiting CLASS, not the best individual player in each class. I think I was pretty objective. If you want to lay out your statistical analysis, be my guest, and we can compare.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 01, 2012, 12:22:29 PM
Go back and look at JFB's first year in the program, not that much difference between him and Juan except there is more talent in front of Juan preventing him from playing.
Players make the biggest leap between freshmen and sophomore year. I'm willing to bet this time next year we'll be talking about how high is Juan's ceiling.
Well said. Some of the things said about JFB early in his MU career.....well, just say the sayer NEVER expected to see JFB in a Bulls uniform. ;)
Quote from: mu03eng on March 01, 2012, 12:22:29 PM
I'm willing to bet this time next year we'll be talking about how high is Juan's ceiling.
For the record, I hope you're right.
Quote from: windyplayer on March 01, 2012, 12:12:20 PM
I've seen nothing to indicate Anderson will be a great senior. He's a freshman so I'm not saying he can't become a productive player down the road, but he looks like a chicken with his head cut off out there, he has zero offensive prowess, and his defense leaves a ton to be desired. I cringe when he comes in games. He gives us nothing, but a warm body on the floor to give others a rest.
He will grow. Remember, he missed so much time early with the foot, then suspension, then the shoulder. He has not had the normal development platform that a Freshman typically has. His biggest issue, though, is his weight/strength. That will come. Give him the offseason and full summer to work with Todd.
Far too early to give up on a kid. As Al always said, "the best thing about a Freshman is they become a Sophomore."
Quote from: mu03eng on March 01, 2012, 12:22:29 PM
Go back and look at JFB's first year in the program, not that much difference between him and Juan except there is more talent in front of Juan preventing him from playing.
Players make the biggest leap between freshmen and sophomore year. I'm willing to bet this time next year we'll be talking about how high is Juan's ceiling.
Your comment about Anderson not playing because there is too much talent ahead of him is just plain wrong. With Otule and Gardner out, we SORELY lack size. We're forced into nothing but 3-guard offenses--and that requires that Crowder and Wilson play almost the entire game. Anderson could easily get 20 minutes per game spelling Crowder for 10 and Wilson for 10. He isn't getting it--not because buzz likes burning players out by playing them 38 to 40 mpg, but because he can't afford to play Anderson any more. If Anderson were as good as Butler was in 2009, he'd be getting those 20 mpg.
Look back at 2009--Butler still got 20 minutes behind Hayward, Matthews and Burke--and competing for time against Fulce and Hazel. An no frontcourt players was out with injury.
Second I don't know what stats you're looking at, but I see a hell of a lot of difference between Butler's first year and Anderson this year.
20 mpg versus 5.
131 offensive rating vs. 81.
5.6 ppg vs. 0.7
3.9 rpg vs. 1.0
1.5 a/t ratio versus 0.5
16 blocks vs. 1
Compare all the stats--especially tempo neutral and "per-40" --between Butler as a soph and Anderson this year, and it shows that Butler in his first year was light years ahead of where Anderson is.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=juan-anderson&jimmy-butler=2008-2009&p1=jimmy-butler
Your generalization about players improving the most between frosh and soph year is not necessarily correct. It is extremely rare for a player to contribute as little as Anderson has this year and then turn out to be a significant contributor. Check Matthews and Hayward for example. You have to go back 18 years to Chris Crawford to find a situation that comes close--and Crawford averaged 50% more minutes/game and more than double the points/game of Anderson.
That's not to say that Anderson can't improve--but to say that he's even close to being comparable to where Butler was is insane.
Thanks for bolstering my hunch with research.
Would Anderson have seen the court at all in Big East play if Otule and Gardner didn't get injured?
Quote from: The Equalizer on March 01, 2012, 01:25:44 PM
Your comment about Anderson not playing because there is too much talent ahead of him is just plain wrong. With Otule and Gardner out, we SORELY lack size. We're forced into nothing but 3-guard offenses--and that requires that Crowder and Wilson play almost the entire game. Anderson could easily get 20 minutes per game spelling Crowder for 10 and Wilson for 10. He isn't getting it--not because buzz likes burning players out by playing them 38 to 40 mpg, but because he can't afford to play Anderson any more. If Anderson were as good as Butler was in 2009, he'd be getting those 20 mpg.
Look back at 2009--Butler still got 20 minutes behind Hayward, Matthews and Burke--and competing for time against Fulce and Hazel. An no frontcourt players was out with injury.
Second I don't know what stats you're looking at, but I see a hell of a lot of difference between Butler's first year and Anderson this year.
20 mpg versus 5.
131 offensive rating vs. 81.
5.6 ppg vs. 0.7
3.9 rpg vs. 1.0
1.5 a/t ratio versus 0.5
16 blocks vs. 1
Compare all the stats--especially tempo neutral and "per-40" --between Butler as a soph and Anderson this year, and it shows that Butler in his first year was light years ahead of where Anderson is.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=juan-anderson&jimmy-butler=2008-2009&p1=jimmy-butler
Your generalization about players improving the most between frosh and soph year is not necessarily correct. It is extremely rare for a player to contribute as little as Anderson has this year and then turn out to be a significant contributor. Check Matthews and Hayward for example. You have to go back 18 years to Chris Crawford to find a situation that comes close--and Crawford averaged 50% more minutes/game and more than double the points/game of Anderson.
That's not to say that Anderson can't improve--but to say that he's even close to being comparable to where Butler was is insane.
Good stats and points. And you don't even talk about how much Butler improved during his sophomore year. By the end of the season, I was talking to the TV, begging Buzz to play him over Burke.
Quote from: The Equalizer on March 01, 2012, 01:25:44 PM
Your comment about Anderson not playing because there is too much talent ahead of him is just plain wrong. With Otule and Gardner out, we SORELY lack size. We're forced into nothing but 3-guard offenses--and that requires that Crowder and Wilson play almost the entire game. Anderson could easily get 20 minutes per game spelling Crowder for 10 and Wilson for 10. He isn't getting it--not because buzz likes burning players out by playing them 38 to 40 mpg, but because he can't afford to play Anderson any more. If Anderson were as good as Butler was in 2009, he'd be getting those 20 mpg.
Look back at 2009--Butler still got 20 minutes behind Hayward, Matthews and Burke--and competing for time against Fulce and Hazel. An no frontcourt players was out with injury.
Second I don't know what stats you're looking at, but I see a hell of a lot of difference between Butler's first year and Anderson this year.
20 mpg versus 5.
131 offensive rating vs. 81.
5.6 ppg vs. 0.7
3.9 rpg vs. 1.0
1.5 a/t ratio versus 0.5
16 blocks vs. 1
Compare all the stats--especially tempo neutral and "per-40" --between Butler as a soph and Anderson this year, and it shows that Butler in his first year was light years ahead of where Anderson is.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=juan-anderson&jimmy-butler=2008-2009&p1=jimmy-butler
Your generalization about players improving the most between frosh and soph year is not necessarily correct. It is extremely rare for a player to contribute as little as Anderson has this year and then turn out to be a significant contributor. Check Matthews and Hayward for example. You have to go back 18 years to Chris Crawford to find a situation that comes close--and Crawford averaged 50% more minutes/game and more than double the points/game of Anderson.
That's not to say that Anderson can't improve--but to say that he's even close to being comparable to where Butler was is insane.
I will concede the statistical high ground and take away/clarify my statement a little.
At the end of the year, Jimmy's sophomore year, he was absolutely playing better than Juan is. But I still stand by the talent statement, JFB was competing for minutes at the 4 where there was really only Zar. And Zar had to play the 5 some to spell Burke. Juan is a natural 3 where Jimmy is a 3/4. I'd argue Crowder, Blue, Wilson are a better 3/4/5 than were Matthews, Burke, and Zar, hence more talent in front of him. Does anyone know how many more minute Jae is playing since DG went out?
Also Jimmy had JUCO experience plus a full season of experience by this point of the season, Juan has neither of those. So yes my statement as an apples to apples was wrong, I should have said that Juan could have a Jimmy like arc there isn't anything that indicates he can't. I have nothing to back this up, but I think Jimmy's non-con play and Juan's con play are similar, flashes of something but not putting it together. We'll see, I think this is an argument for next year, that will tell the tale.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 01, 2012, 04:06:41 PM
I have nothing to back this up, but I think Jimmy's non-con play and Juan's con play are similar, flashes of something but not putting it together. We'll see, I think this is an argument for next year, that will tell the tale.
That was the point of my original post. Anderson has not shown "flashes of something." Can you name one play that made you think this kid has what it takes with a little more coaching and experience? I really can't. I'm not trying to bash Anderson, I really hope he pans out, but every time he comes on the court I'm praying he doesn't turn the ball over. If he doesn't, I'm content. I should have higher expectations for our freshmen.
Quote from: windyplayer on March 01, 2012, 04:18:02 PM
That was the point of my original post. Anderson has not shown "flashes of something." Can you name one play that made you think this kid has what it takes with a little more coaching and experience? I really can't. I'm not trying to bash Anderson, I really hope he pans out, but every time he comes on the court I'm praying he doesn't turn the ball over. If he doesn't, I'm content. I should have higher expectations for our freshmen.
The Wisconsin and Providence games.
Quote from: windyplayer on March 01, 2012, 04:18:02 PM
That was the point of my original post. Anderson has not shown "flashes of something." Can you name one play that made you think this kid has what it takes with a little more coaching and experience? I really can't. I'm not trying to bash Anderson, I really hope he pans out, but every time he comes on the court I'm praying he doesn't turn the ball over. If he doesn't, I'm content. I should have higher expectations for our freshmen.
Last nights game, he didn't score but there was a play where he got the ball in the alley on the left and went under to the right using the hoop to shield the blocker on the left....unfortunately there was a blocker on the right side too. However, for me it was a flash on instinct and athleticism.
Quote from: mu03eng on March 01, 2012, 05:26:01 PM
Last nights game, he didn't score but there was a play where he got the ball in the alley on the left and went under to the right using the hoop to shield the blocker on the left....unfortunately there was a blocker on the right side too. However, for me it was a flash on instinct and athleticism.
Agreed, he just needs to get more comfortable out there like Jamil did as the season progressed. The early season games will help him immensely next season.
It's the toughest transition freshmen have to make. In Oakland, no one was more athletic than him. That play last night, he either gets hacked on the arm or the defender doesn't get as high as him 10 out of 10 times. It's just a transition.
And I know it has been said here quite often, specifically involving Anderson, but our own Al: "The best thing about freshmen is that they become sophomores."
Quote from: strotty on March 01, 2012, 05:01:49 PM
The Wisconsin and Providence games.
I'll give you the Wisconsin game, he pulled down a couple big rebounds (though I wouldn't characterize them as "flashes of something"). But providence? He had two points with two boards in eight minutes. I don't recall anything that stood out in that game in terms of his performance. I could be wrong.
Quote from: windyplayer on March 01, 2012, 12:31:01 PM
Yes, he could be great (see qualifier in post), but at least Jimmy could hit the occassionally jumper and Blue would have flashes of his athleticism. There's not one thing that gives me hope (other than the occasional rebound) except the fact that he's young with room to grow--which is not to be understated, but not to be depended on either.
Quote from: windyplayer on March 01, 2012, 12:31:01 PM
Yes, he could be great (see qualifier in post), but at least Jimmy could hit the occassionally jumper and Blue would have flashes of his athleticism. There's not one thing that gives me hope (other than the occasional rebound) except the fact that he's young with room to grow--which is not to be understated, but not to be depended on either.
He has a VERY high ceiling. Watch his high school highlight video. He's 6'7" with pass/dribble/shoot skills out the ahole and a willingness to defend. Definitely a perimeter-oriented wing player. He needs to put on muscle and not play drastically out of position due to injuries to reach that ceiling. I'm confident he will have excellent junior/senior campaigns.
Quote from: Jamailman on March 01, 2012, 06:11:07 PM
He has a VERY high ceiling. Watch his high school highlight video. He's 6'7" with pass/dribble/shoot skills out the ahole and a willingness to defend. Definitely a perimeter-oriented wing player. He needs to put on muscle and not play drastically out of position due to injuries to reach that ceiling. I'm confident he will have excellent junior/senior campaigns.
He has been playing out of position, which I'm sure is really difficult on a freshman, but I wouldn't put too much stock in high school highlights as a bellwether of collegiate success (see your username). But, just to be crystal clear, I hope everyone is right. I'll support the kid for however long he's in blue and gold and beyond (assuming he doesn't transfer). Skepticism is just getting the best of me at this point. But it's early, so I'll temper my concerns for time being and give him the benefit of the doubt.
Part of it is his body, too. Derrick Wilson = Big East ready. Todd Mayo = Big East ready. Juan Anderson = Not Big East ready. You recruit a kid for what he can give you for four years, not just as a freshman. Playing as a stretch four still puts a toll on your body in MU's offense/defense. One more summer with Todd Smith will do him wonders.