MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Avenue Commons on February 15, 2012, 09:26:02 PM
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Anyone want to still make that argument? Check out the picture of Assembly Hall at gametime.
https://twitter.com/illini_okrush/status/169956376309792768
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They playin' Mount St. Mary's or somethin'?
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They playin' Mount St. Mary's or somethin'?
Not quite ... they played Purdue tonight. Purdue's RPI is 55 and Illinois' Assembly Hall is barely half full.
Meanwhile Cincy's RPI is 93 and we drew nearly 19,000 for them.
Oh wait, I forgot, our fans suck.
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They playin' Mount St. Mary's or somethin'?
Nope, longtime Big 10 rival Purdue Boilermakers. At home, mid-semester. Pathetic.
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I am a resident of Chicago and I have NEVER understood why anybody would want to coach at Illinois. Champaign is nothing but white trash...Tampa without the nice weather.
For all the talk about DePaul being a sleeping giant, I think Northwestern is the real hidden gem. Sure, they have crappy facilities, but make a run to the Sweet 16 there and they'll name the gym after you
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Not quite ... they played Purdue tonight. Purdue's RPI is 55 and Illinois' Assembly Hall is barely half full.
Meanwhile Cincy's RPI is 93 and we drew nearly 19,000 for them.
Oh wait, I forgot, our fans suck.
No, the Bucks do and MU is Milwaukee's winningest team.
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I think Northwestern is the real hidden gem. Sure, they have crappy facilities, but make a run to the Sweet 16 there and they'll name the gym after you
First NU has to make the NCAA Tourney, something they have never done in their history.
Maybe just getting a bid in Evanston will get a Gym named after you.
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Its hard to get fans to the game when they were all busy posing for that twitter background.
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Not quite ... they played Purdue tonight. Purdue's RPI is 55 and Illinois' Assembly Hall is barely half full.
Meanwhile Cincy's RPI is 93 and we drew nearly 19,000 for them.
Oh wait, I forgot, our fans suck.
If MU had lost 6 of 7, was NIT bound for the second time in the 3 seasons and had a lame duck coach, I have a feeling that the BC wouldn't be packed for a Wednesday night game.
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If MU had lost 6 of 7, was NIT bound for the second time in the 3 seasons and had a lame duck coach, I have a feeling that the BC wouldn't be packed for a Wednesday night game.
...but MU isn't the basketball blue-blood, top 15 all-time juggernaut that Illinois is.
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If MU had lost 6 of 7, was NIT bound for the second time in the 3 seasons and had a lame duck coach, I have a feeling that the BC wouldn't be packed for a Wednesday night game.
We are none of those things. Youre making the very point that began this thread. We are a Top 20 program going to another consecutive NCAA appearance. MU regularly plays in front of 15,000+ crowds. Ergo, the two programs barely compare as we sit here today.
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We are none of those things. Youre making the very point that began this thread. We are a Top 20 program going to another consecutive NCAA appearance. MU regularly plays in front of 15,000+ crowds. Ergo, the two programs barely compare as we sit here today.
Compare the rosters, and see the quality of recruits Illinois has been able to get. Clone Buzz, put him at both MU and Illinois and the Illini Buzz will outperform the MU Buzz. Fortunately, Buzz ain't getting cloned and he ain't leaving MU for Illinois. Weber is gone because he did so little with the talent he was able to get. Get better results and Assembly Hall will rock, just as the arena will at any school where the basketball team regularly has great years.
In the last few years, I can't think of a single recruit that Illinois and MU wanted that didn't go to Illinois. Steve Taylor wasn't offered by Illinois, they had one scholarship and they wanted a point guard.
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We are none of those things. Youre making the very point that began this thread. We are a Top 20 program going to another consecutive NCAA appearance. MU regularly plays in front of 15,000+ crowds. Ergo, the two programs barely compare as we sit here today.
Agree with your sentiment here, yet for the most part, a "program" is more a function of the quality of the head coach (recruiting skillas well as coaching skills/motivating), versus the actual university. MU has been fortunate that Crean did a great job reviving the program, and Buzz has taken the hand off and kept us strong.
Illinois is the flagship school in the state of Illinois, much the way Wisconsin is the flagship school in Wisconsin...on paper both of those schools/programs should have more recruiting cache/etc than would MU or DePaul...
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We are none of those things. Youre making the very point that began this thread. We are a Top 20 program going to another consecutive NCAA appearance. MU regularly plays in front of 15,000+ crowds. Ergo, the two programs barely compare as we sit here today.
Marquette being better than Illinois as we sit here today doesn't mean it's a better job. MU is better than UCLA right now too. If given the choice, which school do you think a top-tier coach would choose to go to? Memphis was better than Kentucky when Coach Cal jumped at the chance to go to UK. Butler has been to back-to-back title games. Does that mean Butler is one of the elite college coaching jobs in the country?
I'm not trying to knock Marquette but it's ignorant to say that Team X is better than Team Y right now, therefore Team X is the better job.
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What is the definition of a "better job?" I would think it simple, the school pays well and gives the head coach the tools to succeed.
MU pays as well as anyone so this is not the issue. So beyond pay, does Illinois offer more than MU to allow a head coach to succeed. We can argue facilities and conferences until we are blue in the face. At the end of the day, for a MU coach to leave to go to Illinois, he would have to think Illinois naturally attracts top recruits (like, say MSU). Nothing in Illinois history suggest they have a pipeline of top recruits desperate to go there. They have their moments, like many schools do. But I cannot see Illinois ever being consider a top Big 10 school. MSU, tOSU, IU, Wisc, Michigan are ahead of them. Iowa and Purdue are their equal. NU, Nebraska and Penn State are behind them.
This is why Self bolted when offered Kansas and Crean turned them down. They are a middle of the pack Big 10 school. If Illinois fans want to say MU is a middle of the pack Big East school, ok. But that still not going to get a MU coach to bolt for Illinois (unless he wants to leave). A MU coach would bolt for a better program, and that is not Illinois.
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Did they take down this photo? The link is broken and I can't find any updates from today on their page...
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Not quite ... they played Purdue tonight. Purdue's RPI is 55 and Illinois' Assembly Hall is barely half full.
Meanwhile Cincy's RPI is 93 and we drew nearly 19,000 for them.
Oh wait, I forgot, our fans suck.
Except now we're comparing a Saturday afternoon in a city of 600K against a Wednesday night in a city of 81K.
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Except now we're comparing a Saturday afternoon in a city of 600K against a Wednesday night in a city of 81K.
But aren't we also comparing a school of about 10k students to a school of about 40k?
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A blogger from Orange and Blue news was on 670 The Score with Mully and Hanely a little bit ago. He compared Illinois to Maryland in terms of attractiveness. Noted that schools will turn the job down, but a good hire is out there. Shaka Smart is on the short list.
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A blogger from Orange and Blue news was on 670 The Score with Mully and Hanely a little bit ago. He compared Illinois to Maryland in terms of attractiveness. Noted that schools will turn the job down, but a good hire is out there. Shaka Smart is on the short list.
I think Maryland is a fair analogy. A higher level program in the conference, but not the highest, that has the tools to succeed but doesn't always utilize those tools. I disagree with the above that Illinois is below Wisconsin and Michigan as a "program." When they can hold on to their in-state recruits (like they did under Henson and Self) they have shown how far they can go. But when they are getting poached by other schools, they don't really have much to fall back on.
And Self leaving is really not a great indicator of a quality of a program. Kansas was his dream job. If Roy Williams stayed there my guess is that Self is still at Illinois, unless he took the big $$ at the time to go to Oklahoma State. (Which he turned down a couple years ago.)
That being said, Marquette's a better program than I think we give ourselves credit for. Honestly the tone on this board is "We aren't a mid-major!!!" but then we bad mouth ourselves like we are one. Look, Crean left for an opportunity that was golden in his eyes - iconic program in the Big Ten. We pay well. We support the team well. We have very good facilities. The fan support is tremendous given the type of school Marquette is. We have our future tied with the BE basketball schools.
Put it this way...if I were a coach and was offered both jobs, I would probably take Illinois. However if I am a successful coach at Marquette, I don't leave it for Illinois.
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Please refer to the great thread about which four years were the best to be a student-fanatic at MU.
Aside from a few good teams and players, Illinois has no such legacy in hoops. Who is the coach again? Who was there before him?
And Cream City carries its own hometown flavor in pro sports, food, events--not to mention adult beverages. It is a much better media market too.
U of I is great school especially in science, technology and agriculture--better than UW in my view, yet Champaign-Urbana is about as bland, flat, treeless and isolated a place as well...West Lafayette.
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Please refer to the great thread about which four years were the best to be a student-fanatic at MU.
Aside from a few good teams and players, Illinois has no such legacy in hoops. Who is the coach again? Who was there before him?
And Cream City carries its own hometown flavor in pro sports, food, events--not to mention adult beverages. It is a much better media market too.
U of I is great school especially in science, technology and agriculture--better than UW in my view, yet Champaign-Urbana is about as bland, flat, treeless and isolated a place as well...West Lafayette.
However, Illinois' media market is Chicago.
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I am a resident of Chicago and I have NEVER understood why anybody would want to coach at Illinois. Champaign is nothing but white trash...Tampa without the nice weather.
For all the talk about DePaul being a sleeping giant, I think Northwestern is the real hidden gem. Sure, they have crappy facilities, but make a run to the Sweet 16 there and they'll name the gym after you
Agreed on all counts.
DePaul, if they ever get an on campus venue, could get huge. I'd buy season tickets just to see some of the BE teams come in to town.
Northwestern is the only Big 10 team that I'll ever follow. They are in a huge market, yet do little to pull in viewers or butts in the seats. I would guess it is a result of the leadership at the top of the University, but I think they could make some huge strides - similar to the "resurrection" of the football program. Wikipedia has a section on the 72-94 years called "1972-1994: Years of futility". "Northwestern students rushed the field to 'celebrate,' and chanted 'we're the worst!'" Going from that to being bowl eligible 7 of last 8 years is a pretty good turnaround. I'd like to see that happen with the basketball team.
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Put it this way...if I were a coach and was offered both jobs, I would probably take Illinois. However if I am a successful coach at Marquette, I don't leave it for Illinois.
This is perfectly stated and exactly how I feel.
MU might not be a top destination job, but once a coach has success here, it's as good as any outside of the college hoops royalty (approx. 8-12 jobs).
MU has done a great job at retaining coaches with TC and Buzz. But, if one of the tip top programs comes calling, it's hard for coaches to resist. (I'm not saying a coach would automatically leave, but I'm sure he would listen).
Illinois is NOT a tip top program.
That's a very short phone call if they make it.
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First NU has to make the NCAA Tourney, something they have never done in their history.
Maybe just getting a bid in Evanston will get a Gym named after you.
But then Ryan will just buy the naming rights for himself (see: Dyke Stadium).
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Put it this way...if I were a coach and was offered both jobs, I would probably take Illinois. However if I am a successful coach at Marquette, I don't leave it for Illinois.
Perfectly stated!
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But aren't we also comparing a school of about 10k students to a school of about 40k?
I thought we were talking about overall attendance.
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As an MU alum living in Chicago, I can tell you that people in the Chicago-land area have way too high of an opinion on the type of "basketball power" that U of I really is. There are a lot of mouth-breathers who rank U of I in the same class as UNC, Duke, UCLA, and Kentucky. They believe that the best coaches from all over the country would trip over themselves if that job opens.
In reality, it's a mid-Big 10/12 school. The facilities suck, there's not a great winning tradition, and the school is in the middle of cow-town which is surrounded by hundreds of cow-towns.
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As an MU alum living in Chicago, I can tell you that people in the Chicago-land area have way too high of an opinion on the type of "basketball power" that U of I really is. There are a lot of mouth-breathers who rank U of I in the same class as UNC, Duke, UCLA, and Kentucky. They believe that the best coaches from all over the country would trip over themselves if that job opens.
In reality, it's a mid-Big 10/12 school. The facilities suck, there's not a great winning tradition, and the school is in the middle of cow-town which is surrounded by hundreds of cow-towns.
It's arguably the 3rd best job in the Big 10. In recent years it's been behind OSU, but if Matta ever leaves OSU who knows what happens there. Let's not forget that from 2000-2004 Illinois won the Big Ten 4 of 5 seasons. If they keep on locking up the in state talent and get the right coach in there they'll be in really good shape. That program has a really high ceiling.
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It's arguably the 3rd best job in the Big 10. In recent years it's been behind OSU, but if Matta ever leaves OSU who knows what happens there. Let's not forget that from 2000-2004 Illinois won the Big Ten 4 of 5 seasons. If they keep on locking up the in state talent and get the right coach in there they'll be in really good shape. That program has a really high ceiling.
Ohio State might be here to stay. Their budget is insane, and now that they are consistently good at hoops, I don't know if they will ever accept going back.
They are similar to Texas in that regard. Not a traditional hoops power, but the shear size of their athletic budget will probably make them a top job.
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As an MU alum living in Chicago, I can tell you that people in the Chicago-land area have way too high of an opinion on the type of "basketball power" that U of I really is. There are a lot of mouth-breathers who rank U of I in the same class as UNC, Duke, UCLA, and Kentucky. They believe that the best coaches from all over the country would trip over themselves if that job opens.
In reality, it's a mid-Big 10/12 school. The facilities suck, there's not a great winning tradition, and the school is in the middle of cow-town which is surrounded by hundreds of cow-towns.
As an MU Alum living in Chicago, I don't get that impression really at all. Maybe to some degree, but I hardly feel that is the majority position.
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It's arguably the 3rd best job in the Big 10. In recent years it's been behind OSU, but if Matta ever leaves OSU who knows what happens there. Let's not forget that from 2000-2004 Illinois won the Big Ten 4 of 5 seasons. If they keep on locking up the in state talent and get the right coach in there they'll be in really good shape. That program has a really high ceiling.
3rd? No.
OSU, MSU, IU and UW are all better jobs. PU and MU are at the same level. So they are a mid-Big Ten team.
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Why do people think UW is a better job? Outside of the Kohl Center, I fail to see why UW would be ranked ahead of Illinois and Purdue. The latter two have a longer history of success, and have a much better recruiting base. The resources are about the same.
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As an MU Alum living in Chicago, I don't get that impression really at all. Maybe to some degree, but I hardly feel that is the majority position.
Agreed. Most people in the Chicago area only care about Illinois when they're good...and even then it's marginal. It's like when a local high school team goes to the state tournament - even though you didn't go there and don't pay much attention to their athletics, it would be nice to see them win and represent your town well.
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Why do people think UW is a better job? Outside of the Kohl Center, I fail to see why UW would be ranked ahead of Illinois and Purdue. The latter two have a longer history of success, and have a much better recruiting base. The resources are about the same.
Kohl Center is a big reason. Illinois is far behind on the facilities aspect. Sustained success under Bo is the other reason.
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3rd? No.
OSU, MSU, IU and UW are all better jobs. PU and MU are at the same level. So they are a mid-Big Ten team.
You're nuts if you think Wisc is a better job, and Purdue and Michigan aren't on the same level. The teamss might be better right now, but the head coaching job is not better.
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You're nuts if you think Wisc is a better job, and Purdue and Michigan aren't on the same level. The teamss might be better right now, but the head coaching job is not better.
How is it not?
Facilities - No
Recruiting Base - No, Chicago and Indiana for Purdue
Salary - Same
Recent Success - No
Shoe Affiliation - Edge Michigan on exposure.
School ran by Mike Madigan - Edge everyone else.
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Agreed. Most people in the Chicago area only care about Illinois when they're good...and even then it's marginal. It's like when a local high school team goes to the state tournament - even though you didn't go there and don't pay much attention to their athletics, it would be nice to see them win and represent your town well.
Maybe you are right...who knows. I have a lot of friends who either went to U of I or are fans of the team. They really do believe U of I is a top 5/10 basketball program. I might just have insane friends.
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Maybe you are right...who knows. I have a lot of friends who either went to U of I or are fans of the team. They really do believe U of I is a top 5/10 basketball program. I might just have insane friends.
Insane friends.
If Self's player never made the final four run, Illinois would be battling with Iowa and Penn State for Big Ten relevancy.
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How is it not?
Facilities - No
Recruiting Base - No, Chicago and Indiana for Purdue
Salary - Same
Recent Success - No
Shoe Affiliation - Edge Michigan on exposure.
School ran by Mike Madigan - Edge everyone else.
Take away Bo Ryan from UW and what do you have? UW bball is second fiddle to football with a very rceent tradition. Matt Painter almost just left Purdue (his alma mater) for Mizzou because of the lack of commitment from the AD and they have to deal with IU, ND, and Butler now. Michigan you might have a case, but they haven't had any recent, real success and they're second fiddle to football and MSU basketball. I don't think shoe exposure is a relevant criteria unless you're at Oregon. And don't understate the loads of talent in Illinois in which no other major in-state school is competing for.
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Why do people think UW is a better job? Outside of the Kohl Center, I fail to see why UW would be ranked ahead of Illinois and Purdue. The latter two have a longer history of success, and have a much better recruiting base. The resources are about the same.
Agreed.
And Michigan is a better job than Wisconsin or Illinois.
People seem to forget that before Ed Martin blew up in their face, Michigan went to 12 NCAAs in 14 seasons, making several deep runs along the way.
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Take away Bo Ryan from UW and what do you have? UW bball is second fiddle to football with a very rceent tradition. Matt Painter almost just left Purdue (his alma mater) for Mizzou because of the lack of commitment from the AD and they have to deal with IU, ND, and Butler now. Michigan you might have a case, but they haven't had any recent, real success and they're second fiddle to football and MSU basketball. I don't think shoe exposure is a relevant criteria unless you're at Oregon. And don't understate the loads of talent in Illinois in which no other major in-state school is competing for.
Take away Coach K and what does Duke have? Irrelevant point.
Matt Painter almost left Purdue? He leveraged himself into a better contact. Bruce Weber almost left Illinois for Oklahoma, and didn't get a better contract. Using your logic, the Illinois coach thought Oklahoma might be a better gig, but Buzz turned down Oklahoma.
Illinois being in the same state of Chicago has very little importance. You over estimate the connecting between inner-city Chicago and the wasteland of UC. Anyone can come in and recruit Chicago successfully, but it takes time. The best of the best Chicago recruits are leaving for promises other than playing time. It's the Steve Taylors that can be recruited and you don't need to be from some hillbilly town 130 miles to the south to have an advantage.
Basically the only strong point you have is that Illlinois has a worse football program than their basketball program.
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Agreed.
And Michigan is a better job than Wisconsin or Illinois.
People seem to forget that before Ed Martin blew up in their face, Michigan went to 12 NCAAs in 14 seasons, making several deep runs along the way.
So many people underestimate Michigan and the giant that's still sleeping over there. I think Jim Beilein is a good coach, but he's not bringing the polish to reluster that program.
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Kohl Center is a big reason. Illinois is far behind on the facilities aspect. Sustained success under Bo is the other reason.
It's really interesting to look at Bo Ryan and Bruce Weber's record. They each won the B10 in their first two years, inheriting another coaches recruits. (Dick Bennett IMO is really the one that deserves credit for rebuilding that program, and was a much better recruiter than Bo.)
After those two years for each of them, they have essentially been about equal...with the exception of 2006-07 when UW won the title and Illinois finished 9th.
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Illinois currently has 5 players from the city of Chicago and 2 others from suburban Chicago. So while they don't get all the best Chicago kids, they certainly get their share of a very talent rich area. In the right hands (Self,Kruger) you can win. I think it is a very attractive position to 90% of division 1 coaches.
If I were the U of I AD I would be working back channels to get Kevin Stallings from Vanderbilt. He is from down state IL, coached at Illinois State and could be looking for a pay day.
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Illinois currently has 5 players from the city of Chicago and 2 others from suburban Chicago. So while they don't get all the best Chicago kids, they certainly get their share of a very talent rich area. In the right hands (Self,Kruger) you can win. I think it is a very attractive position to 90% of division 1 coaches.
If I were the U of I AD I would be working back channels to get Kevin Stallings from Vanderbilt. He is from down state IL, coached at Illinois State and could be looking for a pay day.
Stallings is a good friend of Bruce Weber. That will be an interesting situation, Stallings would thrive in the Big Ten.
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Take away Coach K and what does Duke have? Irrelevant point.
Matt Painter almost left Purdue? He leveraged himself into a better contact. Bruce Weber almost left Illinois for Oklahoma, and didn't get a better contract. Using your logic, the Illinois coach thought Oklahoma might be a better gig, but Buzz turned down Oklahoma.
Illinois being in the same state of Chicago has very little importance. You over estimate the connecting between inner-city Chicago and the wasteland of UC. Anyone can come in and recruit Chicago successfully, but it takes time. The best of the best Chicago recruits are leaving for promises other than playing time. It's the Steve Taylors that can be recruited and you don't need to be from some hillbilly town 130 miles to the south to have an advantage.
Basically the only strong point you have is that Illlinois has a worse football program than their basketball program.
I made several other points that are right and that you chose to ignore or disregard. I lost you when you went on about my logic and Illinois and Buzz...
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I made several other points that are right and that you chose to ignore or disregard. I lost you when you went on about my logic and Illinois and Buzz...
What did I ignore?
Take away Bo Ryan from UW and what do you have? UW bball is second fiddle to football with a very rceent tradition. Matt Painter almost just left Purdue (his alma mater) for Mizzou because of the lack of commitment from the AD and they have to deal with IU, ND, and Butler now. Michigan you might have a case, but they haven't had any recent, real success and they're second fiddle to football and MSU basketball. I don't think shoe exposure is a relevant criteria unless you're at Oregon. And don't understate the loads of talent in Illinois in which no other major in-state school is competing for.
The shoe affiliation! My bad. If you don't think that AAU programs/shoe affiliations don't mean anything then you need to pay closer attention. The fact that we are Jordan, with our jersey designs, are a big deal for recruiting.
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What did I ignore?
The shoe affiliation! My bad. If you don't think that AAU programs/shoe affiliations don't mean anything then you need to pay closer attention. The fact that we are Jordan, with our jersey designs, are a big deal for recruiting.
Forget it...Let me just put it this way...If by some miracle, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Illinois are all looking for a coach at the end of the season no candidate is going to choose Purdue or Wisconsin over Illinois.
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Forget it...Let me just put it this way...If by some miracle, Purdue, Wisconsin, and Illinois are all looking for a coach at the end of the season no candidate is going to choose Purdue or Wisconsin over Illinois.
No, please. Back up what you're trying to say, you just said I ignored everything you said. Don't run away now.
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No, please. Back up what you're trying to say, you just said I ignored everything you said. Don't run away now.
I never said you "ignored everything" for one... Just a couple points...Purdue having to compete with Butler, IU, ND. Michigan competing with MSU and football.
But enough with the bickering...What does Wisconsin or Purdue have to offer that Illinois can't and why would you consider Michigan a sleeping giant and not U of I?
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His point is that Uniforms and facilities are important to a point. What is most intriguing to coaches about the Illinois job is the potential to be in the cat bird's seat for players like Mike Shaw, Jabari Parker and Derrick Rose. While you might not get them all, you will always get at least a look being the home state team.
This is a HUGE advantage, and just becuase Bruce Weber kept stepping on his dick in recruiting doesn't mean that somehow this advantage goes away.
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His point is that Uniforms and facilities are important to a point. What is most intriguing to coaches about the Illinois job is the potential to be in the cat bird's seat for players like Mike Shaw, Jabari Parker and Derrick Rose. While you might not get them all, you will always get at least a look being the home state team.
This is a HUGE advantage, and just becuase Bruce Weber kept stepping on his dick in recruiting doesn't mean that somehow this advantage goes away.
Yes and while anyone can recruit Chicago, the fact is noone does it as consistently as U of I. Hell Marquette is 90 miles from Chicago and we don;t have one kid from IL let alone Chicago on our roster.
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Take away Coach K and what does Duke have? Irrelevant point.
Disagree. Duke has a couple of more things that will allow it to survive Coach K. They have become a destination school of choice for high level recruits. They will have their choice of coaches clamoring to replace Coach K. They have tenticals nationally. Lastly, they also have many former players/coaches who would love to return to Duke to coach.
Before Coach K, Duke was a Final 4 team. They have a history that does transcend K.
Wisconsin has recruited players that fit Bo's style. It's not like they are on the wish list of the athletes. The state is also not a hot bed of top level recruits. Wisconsin survived Bennett because they had a coach who wanted that as his destination. I am not so sure they can rebake that mix again. Once Bo leaves, it will be interesting to see what does become of UW's program.
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Bruce is not the best recruiter in the world. His brother coached Jon Scheyer in high school and he still chose Duke over U of I.
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Take away Coach K and what does Duke have? Irrelevant point.
Matt Painter almost left Purdue? He leveraged himself into a better contact. Bruce Weber almost left Illinois for Oklahoma, and didn't get a better contract. Using your logic, the Illinois coach thought Oklahoma might be a better gig, but Buzz turned down Oklahoma.
Illinois being in the same state of Chicago has very little importance. You over estimate the connecting between inner-city Chicago and the wasteland of UC. Anyone can come in and recruit Chicago successfully, but it takes time. The best of the best Chicago recruits are leaving for promises other than playing time. It's the Steve Taylors that can be recruited and you don't need to be from some hillbilly town 130 miles to the south to have an advantage.
Basically the only strong point you have is that Illlinois has a worse football program than their basketball program.
Did you really just compare what Bo has done at Wisconsin to what Coach K has done with Duke? Kind of an irrelevant comparison, don't you think?
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His point is that Uniforms and facilities are important to a point. What is most intriguing to coaches about the Illinois job is the potential to be in the cat bird's seat for players like Mike Shaw, Jabari Parker and Derrick Rose. While you might not get them all, you will always get at least a look being the home state team.
This is a HUGE advantage, and just becuase Bruce Weber kept stepping on his dick in recruiting doesn't mean that somehow this advantage goes away.
Certainly Illinois has a slight advantage in Chicago, but I'd hardly say they're in the "Catbird's seat." That really hasn't been the case since Lou Henson was paying for Sonny Cox's $3,000 suits. Too many big-time programs recruit Chicago real hard (Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, MSU, UNC, etc.) for Illinois to have a decided advantage.
Also, ever sinnce the Jordan era, Chicago has been a pro hoops town, so kids there don't grow up dreaming for a particular college (as they might in, say, central Wisconsin), they dream about the NBA.
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As an MU alum living in Chicago, I can tell you that people in the Chicago-land area have way too high of an opinion on the type of "basketball power" that U of I really is. There are a lot of mouth-breathers who rank U of I in the same class as UNC, Duke, UCLA, and Kentucky. They believe that the best coaches from all over the country would trip over themselves if that job opens.
I've lived in Chicagoland all of my life (except for 4 years at MU) and I have never met a single person who thinks U of I is in the same class an UNC, Duke, UCLA and Kentucky. Not one. They think highly of it for sure, but I've yet to meet someone that delusional.
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Take away Coach K and what does Duke have? Irrelevant point.
Matt Painter almost left Purdue? He leveraged himself into a better contact. Bruce Weber almost left Illinois for Oklahoma, and didn't get a better contract. Using your logic, the Illinois coach thought Oklahoma might be a better gig, but Buzz turned down Oklahoma.
Illinois being in the same state of Chicago has very little importance. You over estimate the connecting between inner-city Chicago and the wasteland of UC. Anyone can come in and recruit Chicago successfully, but it takes time. The best of the best Chicago recruits are leaving for promises other than playing time. It's the Steve Taylors that can be recruited and you don't need to be from some hillbilly town 130 miles to the south to have an advantage.
Basically the only strong point you have is that Illlinois has a worse football program than their basketball program.
Fortunately, we'll never know about Steve Taylor because he was not offered by Illinois. They had only one scholarship, and wanted a point guard, besides they got Mike Shaw last year, remember? The two players who are freshmen this year who I know were offered by both MU and Illinois, Mychael Henry and Mike Shaw both went to Illinois. Freshman center Nnanna Egwu certainly would have been welcomed at MU, but he was wrapped up so early by Illinois that I don't think MU ever had a shot at him. Illinois got four members of the ESPN top 100 among its six recruits. In 2010, they got three out of three, none of whom considered MU. In 2009 it was three out of four recruits. My point here is just that if you think Illinois doesn't have an advantage recruiting Chicago and a big advantage recruiting the rest of the state of Illinois, then I disagree with your assessment. It certainly isn't that Weber is a better recruiter than Buzz, although Weber does have one of the best recruiting assistants in coach Howard.
Based on the above, I think that Sultan's assessment is straight on, if you're looking for a job and both MU and Illinois are open, Illinois would be the better job to take. Given the point where Buzz has gotten the MU program to in his time here, it definitely doesn't make a lot of sense to him to move to Illinois. It's not much better - some would say not as good as - some of the jobs, Buzz passed on last year.
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I've lived in Chicagoland all of my life (except for 4 years at MU) and I have never met a single person who thinks U of I is in the same class an UNC, Duke, UCLA and Kentucky. Not one. They think highly of it for sure, but I've yet to meet someone that delusional.
+1
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What is the definition of a "better job?" I would think it simple, the school pays well and gives the head coach the tools to succeed.
MU pays as well as anyone so this is not the issue. So beyond pay, does Illinois offer more than MU to allow a head coach to succeed?
Mainly the ability to recruit the state of Illinois which is the cream of the crop when it comes to basketball recruits. Not saying Buzz is leaving or anything, but seeing how well he recruits at MU, he'd really be able to get some big names to Illinois. Bruce got big time talent, but he's not a great coach, and I think a lot of kids on their roster aren't the most coachable.
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If I'm Illinois, I'm taking a long look at Tony Benford. Top assistant at a rising program, recruits Chicago well, but also has experience south to Texas and west to California, and you don't have to pay him the kind of money a Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens would command, though I'm not sure either would be interested anyway. I guarantee Tony would give serious consideration to that job if he were a candidate.
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If I'm Illinois, I'm taking a long look at Tony Benford. Top assistant at a rising program, recruits Chicago well, but also has experience south to Texas and west to California, and you don't have to pay him the kind of money a Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens would command, though I'm not sure either would be interested anyway. I guarantee Tony would give serious consideration to that job if he were a candidate.
He'd be gone in a heartbeat and he'd be a fool not to be.
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Laurence Holmes on 670 The Score was talking about this last night. Holmes' is one of the best guys on the the Score, and does the DePaul games. This list was checked by Herb Lawrence, HUGE Illinois homer
Basketball history, recent success, facilities, location, coaching and academics.
Here's his list of programs he thinks are more attractive than Illinois.
Michigan State
Wisconsin
Michigan
Indiana
Ohio State
Syracuse
Georgetown
Pitt
Louisville
UConn
Notre Dame
North Carolina
Duke
Maryland
Florida State
Kentucky
Florida
Vanderbilt
UCLA
Arizona
Cal
Kansas
Missouri
Texas
Baylor
The Jumble - Schools that are all in the same mess of attractiveness
Illinois
NC State
Arkansas
Miami
Marquette- bc, tc leaving dumb
St. John's
Villanova
Cincinnati
West Virginia
Purdue
K-State
Washington
Stanford
Tennessee
Butler
St. Mary's
Gonzaga
UNLV
Memphis
San Diego State
Holmes and Lawrence both agreed that if the Bradley Center were owned by Marquette and on-campus, Marquette would instantly be out of the jumble. Herb Lawrence also chimed in that Tom Crean should have never left for Indiana, Buzz is one of the best young coaches in the NCAA, and getting Buzz to leave will be tough.
Other notes:
Oliver Purnell makes more than Bruce Weber. That's sad.
Holmes notes several times that he could make an argument for Marquette to be ahead of Illinois.
Several callers wanted Marquette ahead and Notre Dame dropped down into the jumble.
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A B1G school like Illinois will not hire an assistant as head coach. The new AD would be skewered on the spot after he botched the football hire. It will be Jeter or Smart. TB could move into the UWM job. Question is, would he have to take a pay cut to get a head coach job?
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He'd be gone in a heartbeat and he'd be a fool not to be.
Were Illinois make a change, Benford doesn't get a sniff. Will have to put in the time and be successful elsewhere first.
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Were Illinois make a change, Benford doesn't get a sniff. Will have to put in the time and be successful elsewhere first.
I absolutely agree. Which is why I said if Illinois came calling like Brew said he would be a fool not to take it and run with it as fast as he can.
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U of I fans are the biggest fair weather fans out there. I have a bunch of friends that went there and there is only one person I know that can name more than three players on basketball and football teams.
Let's put it this way. There are three MU bars in Chicago. U of I has about five times the alumni base and there really is only one U of I bar on the north side.
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Laurence Holmes on 670 The Score was talking about this last night. Holmes' is one of the best guys on the the Score, and does the DePaul games. This list was checked by Herb Lawrence, HUGE Illinois homer
Basketball history, recent success, facilities, location, coaching and academics.
Here's his list of programs he thinks are more attractive than Illinois.
Michigan State
Wisconsin
Michigan
Indiana
Ohio State
Syracuse
Georgetown
Pitt
Louisville
UConn
Notre Dame
North Carolina
Duke
Maryland
Florida State
Kentucky
Florida
Vanderbilt
UCLA
Arizona
Cal
Kansas
Missouri
Texas
Baylor
The Jumble - Schools that are all in the same mess of attractiveness
Illinois
NC State
Arkansas
Miami
Marquette- bc, tc leaving dumb
St. John's
Villanova
Cincinnati
West Virginia
Purdue
K-State
Washington
Stanford
Tennessee
Butler
St. Mary's
Gonzaga
UNLV
Memphis
San Diego State
Holmes and Lawrence both agreed that if the Bradley Center were owned by Marquette and on-campus, Marquette would instantly be out of the jumble. Herb Lawrence also chimed in that Tom Crean should have never left for Indiana, Buzz is one of the best young coaches in the NCAA, and getting Buzz to leave will be tough.
Other notes:
Oliver Purnell makes more than Bruce Weber. That's sad.
Holmes notes several times that he could make an argument for Marquette to be ahead of Illinois.
Several callers wanted Marquette ahead and Notre Dame dropped down into the jumble.
Vanderbilt, Baylor and Pitt clearly do not belong on the more attractive list. These are all schools that are overachieving due to having made great coaching hires. Where was Vanderbilt before Stallings? Where was Baylor before Drew? Wisconsin is a reach too, IMHO. How many coaches can make a go of it with white kids from the sticks of Minnesota and Wisconsin? Bo gets on my nerves, but I'd never underestimate his value to Madison. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked to see Illinois land Stallings away from Vandy.
Oliver Purnell makes more than Bruce Weber. That's sad.
I'm not sure why you'd say that. DePaul was clearly under the gun when they realized that their initial targets for the job wanted no part of it. Purnell had to be convinced to leave a school whose program he had just rebuilt to go and rebuild from scratch yet again at a school in possibly the most competitive B-Ball conference in the country. Purnell would have been an idiot to leave for anything less than top dollar. That said given who their new athletic director is, I think that Illinois will set their sights on a new coach who will set them back what DePaul is paying Purnell.
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Pitt has the Pete. That on-campus arena would make the Bucks jealous.
I'll agree with Vandy and a little bit with Baylor.
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The one thing we have that was not mentioned in the article is Mrs. Buzz..."don't mess with happy."
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From the list above I think it's a pretty good one. I'd question Wisconsin, ND, FSU, Baylor, Vandy, and Cal as more attractive. I wouldn't be surprised if Drew or Stallings left for Illinois. U of I will up the ante on the salary too.
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Were Illinois make a change, Benford doesn't get a sniff. Will have to put in the time and be successful elsewhere first.
If Illinois wasn't going to make a change before, they are now. Nebraska just went on a 40-2 run. Pretty sure they will look at that as a team quitting on a coach.
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Holy cr@p! Is that typo? Got to be a record. Nebraska? Maybe in football against the Illini, but basketball? Weber resigns tonight.
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Wow losing to Nebraska that bad? Not good. Writing on the wall now for the coach. He's done.
Seeing some of the posts on what kind of program it is I agree it isn't one of the elites. However the history is hard to ignore....
13th in all-time NCAA wins
5 Final Fours (tied for 8th)
29 tournament appearances (14th)
That is a pretty big program looking for a coach after the season. The carousel will be spinning again.
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Usual suspects. Brad Stevens (doubtful, because he's taking Crean's job any second now), Shaka Smart, Kevin Stallings, Anthony Grant, <FILL IN HOT COACH FROM NCAA TOURNAMENT>
Weber should have taken the Oklahoma job last year when they were pursuing him. Hindsight is 20-20.
Stallings would be ideal for UI.
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Usual suspects. Brad Stevens (doubtful, because he's taking Crean's job any second now), Shaka Smart, Kevin Stallings, Anthony Grant, <FILL IN HOT COACH FROM NCAA TOURNAMENT>
Weber should have taken the Oklahoma job last year when they were pursuing him. Hindsight is 20-20.
Stallings would be ideal for UI.
[/quote
You know the B1G better than most. Does Weber's relationship with Stallings hurt UI's chances? I think Stevens is out of Illinois' league.
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What did I ignore?
The shoe affiliation! My bad. If you don't think that AAU programs/shoe affiliations don't mean anything then you need to pay closer attention. The fact that we are Jordan, with our jersey designs, are a big deal for recruiting.
It's funny how big the Marquette jersey have become. In the latest Eastbay catalogue they were the only team whose shorts could be bought in 3 different colors, baby blues, gold and white.
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you can't buy the regular blues? those are sharp too
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It's funny how big the Marquette jersey have become. In the latest Eastbay catalogue they were the only team whose shorts could be bought in 3 different colors, baby blues, gold and white.
It's huge, and shouldn't be underestimated.
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Rah, they're exclusive.
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Why would anyone start such a stupid topic like this????
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Why would anyone start such a stupid topic like this????
Because over the next 3 months we will be inundated by countless talking heads mentioning Buzz on the short list of various "high profile" jobs. Thus undoubtedly will be one of them.
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Weber is not a great recruiter. Illinois has a young assistant named Jerrance Howard (a rarely-used player on the 2005 national finalist team) whom recruits LOVE. For years, Illinois had trouble recruiting Chicago until Self arrived. Then had trouble again until Howard became an assistant. Never underestimate the recruiting power of such an assistant; Illinois would be in trouble talent-wise if he left.
As for which job is "better," they both are very good. I generally agree with the post about someone with a choice probably would go Illinois but someone already having success at MU likely wouldn't leave for Illinois. But that's mostly a guess. A good guess, but a guess nonetheless.
And as another poster said, Chicago is NOT a college basketball town. It is a pro basketball town first and a prep basketball town second.
Yes, maybe if a. Northwestern were good and if b. DePaul had an on-campus arena ... but a. it never has been and b. it doesn't and won't any time soon (if ever).
The Big Ten moved its tournament permanently out of Chicago because Indy becomes all about college hoops that week while Chicago barely even noticed the tournament was in town.
Even when the Bulls sucked between the Jordan and Rose eras, they sold an amazing amount of tickets. DePaul had trouble filling the Allstate Mausoleum even when Quentin Richardson and Bobby Simmons were there.
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Holmes and Lawrence both agreed that if the Bradley Center were owned by Marquette and on-campus, Marquette would instantly be out of the jumble.
Just wondering - why would moving the Bradley Center 6 blocks and changing the owner make a difference to a prospective coach? I personally like the BC, but the argument presented above doesn't seem to be to change it in any way, just move it. There's no way the BC is any further from most MU students than Assembly Hall is to most Illinois students. How does school ownership change anything? I guess there would be more opportunity for more Saturday night games, but if they're going to be on an ESPN channel games pretty much have to be in the afternoon anyway.
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Just wondering - why would moving the Bradley Center 6 blocks and changing the owner make a difference to a prospective coach? I personally like the BC, but the argument presented above doesn't seem to be to change it in any way, just move it. There's no way the BC is any further from most MU students than Assembly Hall is to most Illinois students. How does school ownership change anything? I guess there would be more opportunity for more Saturday night games, but if they're going to be on an ESPN channel games pretty much have to be in the afternoon anyway.
First, they could practice in the arena they play in more often. And while it may seem odd, I think an on-campus arena would help with student section attendance. It's the perspective that you're just going across campus rather than walking downtown.
Regardless, MU is a better job. Less pressure than carrying the state name, flagship athletic program of the university, and no taxpayers to answer to when it comes to salary. Milwaukee also has much more to offer as a destination to recruits than Champaign.
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Just wondering - why would moving the Bradley Center 6 blocks and changing the owner make a difference to a prospective coach? I personally like the BC, but the argument presented above doesn't seem to be to change it in any way, just move it. There's no way the BC is any further from most MU students than Assembly Hall is to most Illinois students. How does school ownership change anything? I guess there would be more opportunity for more Saturday night games, but if they're going to be on an ESPN channel games pretty much have to be in the afternoon anyway.
In addition to what BrewCity said, Marquette would be cashing in higher revenues. Marquette would also have complete control over the branding of the stadium and make it Marquette first and foremost. Locker rooms would be much nicer for Marquette, etc...
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In addition to what BrewCity said, Marquette would be cashing in higher revenues. Marquette would also have complete control over the branding of the stadium and make it Marquette first and foremost. Locker rooms would be much nicer for Marquette, etc...
What does the coach care about higher revenues? His paycheck is coming each week and he and his players have everything they need to succeed. I've never seen the locker rooms so I guess it's possible they could be improved. The Bucks banners from the '70s annoy me as much as the next guy, but is it that big a deal? Especially in terms of the way coaches look at the job?
Also, are we sure MU owning a BC sized arena would really bring in higher revenues without the Bucks and Admirals bringing in their share?
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What does the coach care about higher revenues? His paycheck is coming each week and he and his players have everything they need to succeed. I've never seen the locker rooms so I guess it's possible they could be improved. The Bucks banners from the '70s annoy me as much as the next guy, but is it that big a deal? Especially in terms of the way coaches look at the job?
Also, are we sure MU owning a BC sized arena would really bring in higher revenues without the Bucks and Admirals bringing in their share?
A coach's main concern should be about the amount of money is that being generated and allocated to his department. His salary is a drop in the bucket compared to traveling expenses, recruiting expenses, assistant coaches salaries, department resources, updating of facilities etc... HUGE part of what a coach should be looking at.
If Marquette owned the Bradley Center, who says the Bucks or Admirals wouldn't be still there? It was speculated that the Bradley Center was offered to Marquette several years ago at an very low price tag, but the University passed.
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In addition to what BrewCity said, Marquette would be cashing in higher revenues. Marquette would also have complete control over the branding of the stadium and make it Marquette first and foremost. Locker rooms would be much nicer for Marquette, etc...
Actually, a MU arena would much more likely be a black hole sucking dollars out of the school's coffers.
Arenas are notoriously difficult to keep out of the red, and many (like the Bradley Center) rely on taxpayer money to stay afloat. The BC barely is in the black - again, thanks to government funding - and that's with the Bucks, Admirals, MU, concerts and numerous other events. A Marquette-only arena that could count on about 20 men's games and a handful of concerts would struggle mightily. And I doubt very much MU could count on money from the state or city to bail it out.
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Actually, a MU arena would much more likely be a black hole sucking dollars out of the school's coffers.
Arenas are notoriously difficult to keep out of the red, and many (like the Bradley Center) rely on taxpayer money to stay afloat. The BC barely is in the black - again, thanks to government funding - and that's with the Bucks, Admirals, MU, concerts and numerous other events. A Marquette-only arena that could count on about 20 men's games and a handful of concerts would struggle mightily. And I doubt very much MU could count on money from the state or city to bail it out.
The only way they could have had an arena is if they built it instead of the Al. That way you could hold practices there...student rec events...concerts...whatever. With the Al already around, it would be a pretty huge waste unless some donor stepped up and covered the whole thing.
To put the money into perspective, the Al cost about $30 million. The 10,000 seat Chaifetz Arena at St. Louis University cost about $80 million. In order to get the capacity up even a little higher, you are talking a $100 million investment.
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...and then you are talking about a football level of investment. ::)
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The Bucks banners from the '70s annoy me as much as the next guy, but is it that big a deal?
It was pretty amusing seeing the Hartford Whalers banners hanging from the rafters during the UCONN game on Saturday. At least that is what I think I saw on TV. They have been gone for 15 years now.
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It was pretty amusing seeing the Hartford Whalers banners hanging from the rafters during the UCONN game on Saturday. At least that is what I think I saw on TV. They have been gone for 15 years now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HartfordWhalersBanners.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HartfordWhalersBanners.jpg)
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It was pretty amusing seeing the Hartford Whalers banners hanging from the rafters during the UCONN game on Saturday. At least that is what I think I saw on TV. They have been gone for 15 years now.
Hartford, the Whate, they beat Vancouver once, maybe twice in a liftetime.
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The answer to the question is a big "No".