I have been reading a lot of the Vander posts, both good and bad. I am curious what is the number one cause of him being criticized by MU fans. Is it his play? Him not living up to his high recruiting status? His off the court issues? Or a combination of all these. For me it is a combination of all of these things. I absolutely hate the off court issues, whether he is guilty or not, I hate hearing anything like this about any MU player. I also am guilty, as other fans are, of believing recruiting hype, I put too much stock into recruiting rankings and my expectations are probably too high, when these guys come in. As far as Vander's play, I think he is our best perimeter defender, by quite a large margain and a great rebounding guard. I also think he is our worst offensive perimeter player by that same large margain. Until this roster has more multidimensional players, Vander will be (right or wrong) the whipping boy.
I think some people just like to whine.
Aren't you whinning about others whinning? ;D
No. Look at all of those players who were honored yesterday. And if you are older, think back to all of teams since you started following Marquette. Did each and every one of them accomplish what they were supposed to as a player? Did none of them screw up off of the court? Going back, we have teams that underachieved because they quit on their coach (ask murf sometime). We had players who refused to salute the flag because of their feelings about Viet Nam. We had a player leave mid-season for the ABA and possibly cost us a national championship. We had a coach and a player get in a fight in the locker room at halftime of an NCAA tourney game. We had other players beat their girlfriends, one who was driving a jeep in the snow with a girl hanging on the bumper who lost her grip, hit her head, and remained in a coma until she died. We had players who liked weed. We had a player assault one of our coaches during practice. We had a player who bragged about his poker playing ability at the casino. We had one who may have bet on basketball games. We've had a 5 star recruit eat himself out of the game.
My point is this. Vander did some dumb stuff off of the court. He isn't the first player, or even the first MU student, to mess up. On the court, he is a work in progress. I refuse to bag on this kid simply because he does not live up to a pre-conceived notion of how good he is supposed to be. After all, JJones was nearly as highly ranked. How is his progress? Where are the countless threads about how he isn't living up to expectations? Take out all historic context. How is Blue doing as a sophomore swingman on a top 25 team? Right now, he is a solid glue guy who needs work on his shot and his confidence. As a sophomore swingman on a top 25 team, I'll take it.
We also had a coach who was a total and complete, self-serving dickhead while here.
Who is the 5 star recruit that ate himself out of the game? If I may ask.
Am I missing something? What are Blue's off court issues other than getting in a fight? Who didn't get in fights in their teens? Big deal!
Quote from: The Maestro on January 15, 2012, 04:23:59 PM
Who is the 5 star recruit that ate himself out of the game? If I may ask.
Lloyd Moore
Saw Moore and Majerus at the Hyatt's all you can eat Sunday brunch. I think they ran out of food.
I resemble that remark.
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=lloyd%20moore%20basketball&sa=N&biw=320&bih=356#i=0
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 15, 2012, 04:32:15 PM
Lloyd Moore
Lloyd Moore (food) was a 5 star recruit? I went to mU during that era and I thought it came down to us and Duquene for his services. I think he was more a 2 star project.
Check again Bro. Schenley High in Pittsburgh gave us Luke and Moore.
Plus we had Dukiet era. And outside of Tony Smith and Trevor Powell, nothing good came out of the Dukiet era. A bunch of doofuses....
Vander is probably the most highly recruited player to come to Marquette since Doc Rivers. Since they are both guards, maybe the comparison should be Vander vs. Doc as sophs. So at that stage of their careers, how do they compare?
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 15, 2012, 07:34:59 PM
Vander is probably the most highly recruited player to come to Marquette since Doc Rivers. Since they are both guards, maybe the comparison should be Vander vs. Doc as sophs. So at that stage of their careers, how do they compare?
Different guard, different player, different era, different game.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 15, 2012, 06:56:40 PM
Lloyd Moore (food) was a 5 star recruit? I went to mU during that era and I thought it came down to us and Duquene for his services. I think he was more a 2 star project.
Lloyd was a definitely a highly sought 5 star guy. Actually was good offensively, but too fat to do any more.
Its the recruiting hype. Everybody just hast to take a breath.
Quote from: Nukem2 on January 15, 2012, 07:48:51 PM
Lloyd was a definitely a highly sought 5 star guy. Actually was good offensively, but too fat to do any more.
He was never as good as his billing. That's why it was down to MU, Duquene and Pitt. No "5-star" schools were after him.
" I absolutely hate the off court issues, whether he is guilty or not, "
I think this pretty much tells me all I need to know about you................
Quote from: MuMark on January 15, 2012, 08:14:46 PM
" I absolutely hate the off court issues, whether he is guilty or not, "
I think this pretty much tells me all I need to know about you................
Why is that exactly? Vander has been here for 1 1/2 seasons and his name has been linked to three different things. Whether he is guilty of the act or not he is in the wrong place at the wrong time too often. I don't want those type of allegations attached to players I cheer for. If that makes me wrong then so be it. ?-(
Character and agenda revealed.
I don't have an agenda, I was curious as to why others are so hard on Vander. The answer is more than just whining. I wanted to know how much of a role the three categories I listed have to do with why others rip on him. I know why I don't like him.... I want to know why others don't.
There is a difference between being a fan of a program and blind dumb loyalty to everything and anything with an MU logo on it. This comes from a 20 year season ticket holder.
I expect more from MU student athletes past and present. If that makes me a bad fan then I am a bad fan.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 15, 2012, 07:25:21 PM
Check again Bro. Schenley High in Pittsburgh gave us Luke and Moore.
Moore was from Clairton (PA) High School.
Quote from: BenCat12 on January 15, 2012, 08:33:50 PM
I don't have an agenda, I was curious as to why others are so hard on Vander. The answer is more than just whining. I wanted to know how much of a role the three categories I listed have to do with why others rip on him. I know why I don't like him.... I want to know why others don't.
There is a difference between being a fan of a program and blind dumb loyalty to everything and anything with an MU logo on it. This comes from a 20 year season ticket holder.
I expect more from MU student athletes past and present. If that makes me a bad fan then I am a bad fan.
My post, copied and pasted from a different thread...
Simply put, many fans don't like Vander because he's making them look bad.
When Vander dissed Wisco and came to Marquette, many fans touted him as Wade 2.0 (or should I say Wade 3.0 since Dameon Mason was annointed Wade 2.0?). He's a 6'4", athletic, all-around stud and he was coming to our school to follow in Wade's footsteps. MU fans mocked Badger fans because one of the most highly ranked in-state recruits in recent memory didn't want to stay in Madison. He wanted to be a Warrior. Currently, Blue is a valuable role player at Marquette and many MU fans are ready to label him a complete bust because, 1.5 seasons into his career, he hasn't been the All-American they were unfairly expecting him to be. In other words, Blue is making them look bad because they had talked him up and had built him up to an impossible-to-attain level and he's not even close to reaching that level so they're taking it out on him. If Vander was a 4-star recruit from Texas, you'd barely hear a whisper about his offensive struggles. Jamail Jones, for example, was ranked just outside the top 50 as a recruit and he can't even get on the floor consistently yet you don't constantly see threads popping up ripping his game or his high-fiving prowess.
Dominic James was a similar situation to Blue. He was a freshman stud and appeared to be on his way to the NBA Lottery. Unfortunately, he peaked as a freshman and many fans never "forgave" him for that. He was going to be the next big thing at MU and instead ended up with a disappointing career, finishing 2nd in school history in assists and 3rd in scoring.
Quote from: Nukem2 on January 15, 2012, 07:48:51 PM
Lloyd was a definitely a highly sought 5 star guy. Actually was good offensively, but too fat to do any more.
Lloyd was a sad case in the sense that he was one of the top High School recruits in the nation when he signed with Marquette. Between signing and showing up on campus, I believe ole Chocolate Moose added about 100 pounds. My recollection was the coaches were shocked and when Lloyd messed up his knees he was through.
Incidentally, if we're going to talk about untapped talent potential, we ought to be starting with Bernard Toone. I think he drove Al crazy because he did less with more than any other Warrior Al coached.
Absolutely correct on BT. Still remember it today, like it was yesterday when Johnnie Owens introduced him to the crowd at the Arena during a Warriors' game when he was here as a high school student on a recruiting visit. Toone still performed well enough to be drafted by the 6ers.
Quote from: TedBaxter on January 15, 2012, 08:45:24 PM
Moore was from Clairton (PA) High School.
Then I'll stand erected.
As much of a wash-out as he was, After the dust settled, Llyod was the second best recruit in that class (better than Paul Newman, Vic Lazaretti; Kerry Trotter was a very nice player). Now that is damning with faint praise!
Or Lloyd.
Kerry Trotter was a McDonald's All-American, the last one to come play at MU. I think he was more highly rated than Lloyd Moore that year.
Quote from: BenCat12 on January 15, 2012, 08:33:50 PM
I don't have an agenda, I was curious as to why others are so hard on Vander. The answer is more than just whining. I wanted to know how much of a role the three categories I listed have to do with why others rip on him. I know why I don't like him.... I want to know why others don't.
There is a difference between being a fan of a program and blind dumb loyalty to everything and anything with an MU logo on it. This comes from a 20 year season ticket holder.
I expect more from MU student athletes past and present. If that makes me a bad fan then I am a bad fan.
There is a good portion of MU fans who probably have relatives at MU, or know people attending MU, and have heard what Vander has done "off the court." And this is not just the fight, which he instigated, btw. How does that not affect your ability to cheer for the guy if he's just not a good person?
Quote from: tower912 on January 15, 2012, 03:40:48 PM
We had a player leave mid-season for the ABA and possibly cost us a national championship.
That was a no brainer. Chones did the right thing. Which one of us would not leave school, even today, if we were offered a few million dollars to accept a job.
Quote from: godzilla on January 16, 2012, 08:35:42 AM
There is a good portion of MU fans who probably have relatives at MU, or know people attending MU, and have heard what Vander has done been accused of doing "off the court." And this is not just the fight, which he instigated, btw. How does that not affect your ability to cheer for the guy if he's just not a good person?
Correction.
Do you know him personally? Is that how you know he's not a good person? Or do you just go by rumors?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 16, 2012, 08:48:07 AM
Correction.
Do you know him personally? Is that how you know he's not a good person? Or do you just go by rumors?
I know he is a bad person by his body language and failure to high 5.
Quote from: godzilla on January 16, 2012, 08:35:42 AM
There is a good portion of MU fans who probably have relatives at MU, or know people attending MU, and have heard what Vander has done "off the court." And this is not just the fight, which he instigated, btw. How does that not affect your ability to cheer for the guy if he's just not a good person?
I Got in 2 fights in college. I guess I'm a horrible person.
Quote from: godzilla on January 16, 2012, 08:35:42 AM
There is a good portion of MU fans who probably have relatives at MU, or know people attending MU, and have heard what Vander has done "off the court." And this is not just the fight, which he instigated, btw. How does that not affect your ability to cheer for the guy if he's just not a good person?
College kids getting in fights and getting into trouble has no bearing on whether or not they are a "good person." Everyone makes mistakes...oftentimes more than once. Good people learn from them and change.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on January 16, 2012, 08:37:29 AM
That was a no brainer. Chones did the right thing. Which one of us would not leave school, even today, if we were offered a few million dollars to accept a job.
Agreed. The story of Al coming over to Chones' apartment and opening the refrigerator to find it nearly empty. That's when he told him to take the money. I also agree that with Chones, it was probably the best MU team of all time. I think they still hold the school record for most wins in a season too.
Oh, you mean the crib in the Catholic Knights Tower where Chones made his digs?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 16, 2012, 08:48:07 AM
Correction.
Do you know him personally? Is that how you know he's not a good person? Or do you just go by rumors?
I know people that know him personally is the accurate description. And I know someone who has witnessed one of the "incidents." If you want to root for him, fine. But, imo, he's not a good person and has shown ZERO remorse for his actions.
Quote from: godzilla on January 16, 2012, 12:06:50 PM
I know people that know him personally is the accurate description. And I know someone who has witnessed one of the "incidents." If you want to root for him, fine. But, imo, he's not a good person and has shown ZERO remorse for his actions.
I know people who know him personally, interact with him almost daily, and say things pretty much opposite. That he's a good kid who is immature and who is light years ahead of where he was as an adult when compared to last year.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 16, 2012, 12:25:16 PM
I know people who know him personally, interact with him almost daily, and say things pretty much opposite. That he's a good kid who is immature and who is light years ahead of where he was as an adult when compared to last year.
Based on my conversations with a friend in the athletic office, I was going to say basically this same thing. Sometimes that freshman to soph "improvement" isn't just in terms of basketball.
Quote from: godzilla on January 16, 2012, 12:06:50 PM
I know people that know him personally is the accurate description. And I know someone who has witnessed one of the "incidents." If you want to root for him, fine. But, imo, he's not a good person and has shown ZERO remorse for his actions.
Well hell, if you know someone that knows Blue, feel free to blast him on the internet without ever actually meeting him and forming your own opinion - that makes you much more mature than you claim Blue to be.
Obviously character is important but I think people jump to conclusions too quickly. These are kids and every f up they are involved with is brought to our attention. VB was a big time recruit and has had off courst issues which coupled with inconsistent play makes him an easy target.
Great play on the court helps make off court issues seem to be less important. I remember Bo Ellis giving a stellar two word speech after getting caught with weed by MPD. He simply said "I'm sorry" and went out and did what he was brought here to do, play big time ball.
Over the years we have had our share of character issue guys but really think it is minor issue. VB needs to play better and continue to mature as a person. He was a good get as recruit and hope he makes himself into the player he can be.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on January 16, 2012, 08:37:29 AM
That was a no brainer. Chones did the right thing. Which one of us would not leave school, even today, if we were offered a few million dollars to accept a job.
Wasn't criticizing. Merely offering history and context. I'd have made the same decision.
Outside of the bar incident I do not know what Vander has or has not been involved in. I do believe there are other players that had issues also. I do not believe those issues are greatly affecting my opinion of Vander. I am much easier on Vander this year than I was last year. Last year Vander was forcing things to much. He was continuously hurting MU by taking bad shots or turning the ball over and that drove me crazy. This year his decision making is much better. I can accept the fact he cannot shoot as long as he does not think he should be shooting. Also, I think we should consider that he is being asked to play out of position. As far as I know he does this without complaining. He is not big enough to play small forward in Big East. His natural position probably is point guard, but there is no way I would start him at point over Cadougan.