MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 🏀 on January 07, 2012, 04:08:06 PM
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I just don't get it.
I appreciate what he does, but he's an junker of a player.
Why isn't anyone hating on him? He has not progressed as a player. He's one of the worst defenders on the team. He disappears for long stretches.
His game isn't that good. He is our only option, but as the focal point of the offense we need a better player.
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I have often wondered the same. He get's a HUGE pass with many. Very inconsistent, poor defender and really a fundamentally flawed rebounder. He has some big games, but also some real stinkers.
I
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Jae gets a pass from most because he scores points. I have actually been more disappointed with him this year than any other player. I still like him just wish he would be more of a leader and push others to play better. I keep hoping he becomes more like Lazar but don't think that will happen.
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I just don't get it.
I appreciate what he does, but he's an junker of a player.
Why isn't anyone hating on him? He has not progressed as a player. He's one of the worst defenders on the team. He disappears for long stretches.
His game isn't that good. He is our only option, but as the focal point of the offense we need a better player.
Exactly right. He works hard and does little things but ALL TO OFTEN does he have halfs or games against good teams of 0-3 pts. It just cannot happen.
I think he gets a pass because he will fail against a team like today but then come out with 25 next game.
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I have often wondered the same. He get's a HUGE pass with many. Very inconsistent, poor defender and really a fundamentally flawed rebounder. He has some big games, but also some real stinkers.
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Jae gets a pass from most because he scores points. I have actually been more disappointed with him this year than any other player. I still like him just wish he would be more of a leader and push others to play better. I keep hoping he becomes more like Lazar but don't think that will happen.
Exactly right. He works hard and does little things but ALL TO OFTEN does he have halfs or games against good teams of 0-3 pts. It just cannot happen.
I think he gets a pass because he will fail against a team like today but then come out with 25 next game.
Wow, shocked with the responses. Thought I was going to get roasted.
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I like Jae because he's not afraid to mix it up underneath and draws the fouls.
But he can be a knucklehead and fall in love with the 3.
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Jae Crowder kills our run. Weird.
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Wow, shocked with the responses. Thought I was going to get roasted.
You posted what I was too afraid to say a while ago. Thanks for leading the way.
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Wow, shocked with the responses. Thought I was going to get roasted.
It's nice when people don't just fall back on the MU-hating d-bag line, isn't it?
;)
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It's nice when people don't just fall back on the MU-hating d-bag line, isn't it?
;)
Touche.
Try sprinkling in a little optimism, and it'll go a long way around here though.
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I was just struck by the second time in the last few minutes (with the second time just before the 11 minute mark) where Crowder was the only MU that didn't huddle up at the free throw when MU was to throw the ball in under the SU basket.
Noticeable because he always seemed the be the guy that pulled others together.
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I was just struck by the second time in the last few minutes (with the second time just before the 11 minute mark) where Crowder was the only MU that didn't huddle up at the free throw when MU was to throw the ball in under the SU basket.
Noticeable because he always seemed the be the guy that pulled others together.
I know. No excuse, but two years and out with Jae. Hard to really feel like a team.
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Touche.
Try sprinkling in a little optimism, and it'll go a long way around here though.
Cadougan plays like this and upper level in his future.
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I just cant get behind Cadougan. He wants to be a leader but hes simply not talented and too flawed to be the team leader. I can't see him trying to spur his players on when he gets roasted on D and throws passes away and launches bricks. I've heard he is a great person and that is awesome. However, I think MU is better with Vander at point and Mayo @ the 2 spot.
At least Vander can D up and when he jumps with the ball and has no shot or no one to pass to he does it athletically.
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At least Vander can D up and when he jumps with the ball and has no shot or no one to pass to he does it athletically.[/b]
Well, at least he looks good when he f*cks up.
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We're playing 4 vs 6 when Vander is on the floor as our PG. he is totally clueless offensively.
In the Vanderbilt game, he got trapped near halfcourt twice, within a minute of each other, by picking up his dribble. Once he got bailed out by a terrible foul call and the other he committed a TO. Today he had way too many TOs. He goes up in the air way too often with no idea what he's going to do with the ball and he typically ends up throwing it away which leads to a fast break for the other team. He has NO shot whatsoever. He missed all four of his free throws today. The box score says he had only 3 TOs today, but I swear if you'd go back and rewatch the game, he should be credited for more than that.
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I just cant get behind Cadougan. He wants to be a leader but hes simply not talented and too flawed to be the team leader. I can't see him trying to spur his players on when he gets roasted on D and throws passes away and launches bricks. I've heard he is a great person and that is awesome. However, I think MU is better with Vander at point and Mayo @ the 2 spot.
At least Vander can D up and when he jumps with the ball and has no shot or no one to pass to he does it athletically.
I can't believe after todays game, someone still thinks that Ble would run the point better than Junior. The offense is so stagnant when Junior is not in the game. He is not the most athletic on the team but his drives into the lane where actually effective. No one else did much when driving.
In the beginning of the game, I think Blue had 3 TOs on 5 passes. Not assists. Passes. He needs to be a SG and learn how to finish at the rim.
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But he can't finish and with Wilson not a viable option @ PG what do you do?
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Interesting how this started off as a thread about how disappointing Crowder has been this season and turned into another Blue-bashing thread.
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Interesting how this started off as a thread about how disappointing Crowder has been this season and turned into another Blue-bashing thread.
Some people just cannot help themselves.
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Some people just cannot help themselves.
Maybe he just needs to punch someone again, maybe even a teammate and then more people will like him.
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Maybe he just needs to punch someone again, maybe even a teammate and then more people will like him.
Good one. ::)
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Maybe he just needs to punch someone again, maybe even a teammate and then more people will like him.
Man you must live a sad, depressing life. Please go be a "fan" of some other team...any other team...and take your s**t somewhere else. It's old.
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Interesting how this started off as a thread about how disappointing Crowder has been this season and turned into another Blue-bashing thread.
He's the new Crean.
Honestly, Blue had another solid game. Helped to spark the comeback (along with Junior).
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Jae's shown plenty of toughness and execution, he's just been inconsistent. We need him on the court drawing attention from defenses big time.
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I will not quote you groove since that comment will hopefully be deleted. In response, you do a good job of tip-toeing the line. Between the bashing of Vander, Jae and others on court actions, and your desire for traditionalist why not just come out and say what you want to say?
That or quit the veiled insults.
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Jae's problem this year is simple... no Jimmy Butler. Last year he had the luxury of playing Robin to Jimmy's Batman. This year he hasn't taken over the Jimmy role anymore than Jamil Wilson has stepped up to play the supporting role Jae did last year.
No Otule just makes it harder for both.
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He's the new Crean.
Honestly, Blue had another solid game. Helped to spark the comeback (along with Junior).
Honestly?
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I have often wondered the same. He get's a HUGE pass with many. Very inconsistent, poor defender and really a fundamentally flawed rebounder. He has some big games, but also some real stinkers.
I
Jae gets a pass because he's a really good player, arguably our most valuable player. He and DJO are targeted by our opponents as the guys to stop to beat MU and often don't have enough help on offense and consequently take what appear to be some ill-advised shots. He battles hard as an undersized 4. So he takes a bad 3 now and then, but he hits a high enough percentage to make them worthwhile. I can only think of one of his 3s yesterday that was a flat out bad shot. Sometimes good shots don't go in.
We lost the last two games and 3 of 4, but I get the feeling we're starting to figure out what we are without Otule and are just about ready to turn it back on again.
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Crowder and DJO are both good players. They are struggling to adjust to defenses that are designed specifically to stop them.
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We're playing 4 vs 6 when Vander is on the floor as our PG. he is totally clueless offensively.
In the Vanderbilt game, he got trapped near halfcourt twice, within a minute of each other, by picking up his dribble. Once he got bailed out by a terrible foul call and the other he committed a TO. Today he had way too many TOs. He goes up in the air way too often with no idea what he's going to do with the ball and he typically ends up throwing it away which leads to a fast break for the other team. He has NO shot whatsoever. He missed all four of his free throws today. The box score says he had only 3 TOs today, but I swear if you'd go back and rewatch the game, he should be credited for more than that.
Damn those inconvenient facts, eh?
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I was just struck by the second time in the last few minutes (with the second time just before the 11 minute mark) where Crowder was the only MU that didn't huddle up at the free throw when MU was to throw the ball in under the SU basket.
Jesus, this S*** again?! High fiving ettiquite, now "huddling" before FTs. WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CARES?!?!?!!!
(http://xbradtc.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/facepalm.jpg)
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deleted to start a new thread about PG, and not threadjack this one about Jae
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Honestly?
Yep. He had a solid line, much better in the second half, and it is almost unquestionable that he helped to spark the comeback.
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Yep. He had a solid line, much better in the second half, and it is almost unquestionable that he helped to spark the comeback.
You are certainly loyal, I will give you that. I hope he doesn't decide to go pro!
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You are certainly loyal, I will give you that. I hope he doesn't decide to go pro!
That just doesn't make sense. Loyal? Because he doesn't bash Blue and see's the positives? He see's the positives outweigh the negatives?
Man, some of you really need to get a grip when it comes to Blue.
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Jae plays tough. He plays hard. In his defense he usually has to guard the 5 from the other team. Buzz has simply not recruited 5s and recruits teams that are to not match up well with a lot of teams. When Crowder is not hitting his 3s, it does hurt. But he fights and plays hard. Agree that we need him to take on more of a leadership role to lead the team to scrap out wins.
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He have some really solid players. Jae is one of them. The problem is that they all seem to be players that have to have the game come to them. When they play relaxed and in rhythm, they play well. But Jae and others can not make a play to stifle these natural runs that happen in the game and settle the team down.
As for Blue, I think he had a decent game. He still has major issues finishing. There was one drive where he was fouled in the first half. It was during our drought and the foul was really weak and Blue put up a layup that was extremely off the mark. As long as he has problems finishing, he is going to be very ineffective on offense.
There are major issues with this team. Senior leadership is lacking. We don't have shooters. We are leaning on a freshmen to be our third scorer and we are realizing, he is just a freshmen. I think Jae needs to step up. Buzz needs to make him the back up 5. It is so clear that Wilson is a wing player and not a 5. Whatever offense Buzz ran his second year when Lazar was our 5, he needs to run it with Jae when Gardner is on the bench.
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Buzz needs to recruit players that can dominate. That was the key to Al's success. He recruited players that could dominate games... George Thompson, Dean Memminger, Butch Lee, Bo Ellis, Earl Tatum, Jerome Whitehead, Larry McNeil, etc. They could dominate the other team. Al would always dominate/intimidate the other team, coaches and refs. The Big East is a really tough conference, to win we need to dominate or we will always be playing the role of the underdog and have to fight and scrap for wins.
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Jae plays tough. He plays hard. In his defense he usually has to guard the 5 from the other team. Buzz has simply not recruited 5s and recruits teams that are to not match up well with a lot of teams. When Crowder is not hitting his 3s, it does hurt. But he fights and plays hard. Agree that we need him to take on more of a leadership role to lead the team to scrap out wins.
Guarding 5s shouldn't be an excuse because he can't anyone with any quickness. He gets abused on defense everywhere.
He's not that great of a player.
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Buzz needs to recruit players that can dominate. That was the key to Al's success. He recruited players that could dominate games... George Thompson, Dean Memminger, Butch Lee, Bo Ellis, Earl Tatum, Jerome Whitehead, Larry McNeil, etc. They could dominate the other team. Al would always dominate/intimidate the other team, coaches and refs. The Big East is a really tough conference, to win we need to dominate or we will always be playing the role of the underdog and have to fight and scrap for wins.
Well, if your solution is "to recruit better players," that's kind of obvious.
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You are certainly loyal, I will give you that. I hope he doesn't decide to go pro!
I never claimed that he was a pro prospect. He is a sophomore starting on a BE caliber team who is making a solid, but not spectacular impact. For all the Gardner love for instance, he had as many TOs as Blue....and Blue outrebounded him.
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I never claimed that he was a pro prospect. He is a sophomore starting on a BE caliber team who is making a solid, but not spectacular impact. For all the Gardner love for instance, he had as many TOs as Blue....and Blue outrebounded him.
Don't twist the numbers. The offensive fouls were very questionable which were the cause of the majority of his turnovers. Blues turnovers were because of poor decisions, some of which resulted in fast break layups. For a 3 star big man prospect, gardner has been a pleasant surprise. Gardner is the only player on the team that really knows how to play with his back to the basket. That is where the "love" comes from. Blue's lack of improvement from last year to this year in finishing around the rim. That is where the fan frustration comes from.
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Don't twist the numbers. The offensive fouls were very questionable which were the cause of the majority of his turnovers. Blues turnovers were because of poor decisions, some of which resulted in fast break layups. For a 3 star big man prospect, gardner has been a pleasant surprise. Gardner is the only player on the team that really knows how to play with his back to the basket. That is where the "love" comes from. Blue's lack of improvement from last year to this year in finishing around the rim. That is where the fan frustration comes from.
How am I "twisting numbers" when I am simply stating what the statistics were. A turnover is a turnover. Are we now going to grade the quality of the turnover?
And Blue has improved a number of aspects to his game from last year....as has Gardner...I am going to be pleased to see both of them improve even more over the next two years.
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Don't twist the numbers. The offensive fouls were very questionable which were the cause of the majority of his turnovers. Blues turnovers were because of poor decisions, some of which resulted in fast break layups. For a 3 star big man prospect, gardner has been a pleasant surprise. Gardner is the only player on the team that really knows how to play with his back to the basket. That is where the "love" comes from. Blue's lack of improvement from last year to this year in finishing around the rim. That is where the fan frustration comes from.
I wasn't able to watch the game but here is Blue's line: 9 pts, 50% from the field, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, and 3 to. I would say that is great improvement for a player that most say was non-existent in BE play last year.
I'm with Sultan, I simply don't get all the hate and certainly don't see how he "twisted the facts."
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I wasn't able to watch the game but here is Blue's line: 9 pts, 50% from the field, 7 rebounds, 5 assists, and 3 to. I would say that is great improvement for a player that most say was non-existent in BE play last year.
I'm with Sultan, I simply don't get all the hate and certainly don't see how he "twisted the facts."
LA--what the box score does not show you the number of times VB jumps into the air, realizes he has no idea what he is going to do, and attempts to make a weak pass that at the last second is tipped out of bounds by Cuse. Box score=non event.
When VB throws the most deliberate pass that Cuse momentarily steals, bounces off their foot and out of bounds--MU ball. Box score=non event.
Neither of these plays and the close proximity of missed layups do not show up in the box score. If you want to defend VB based on box score go ahead. If you want to see what fans are talikng about, watch him play. It is far from exceptional.
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LA--what the box score does not show you the number of times VB jumps into the air, realizes he has no idea what he is going to do, and attempts to make a weak pass that at the last second is tipped out of bounds by Cuse. Box score=non event.
When VB throws the most deliberate pass that Cuse momentarily steals, bounces off their foot and out of bounds--MU ball. Box score=non event.
Neither of these plays and the close proximity of missed layups do not show up in the box score. If you want to defend VB based on box score go ahead. If you want to see what fans are talikng about, watch him play. It is far from exceptional.
Then help us out. How many times do those things happen? Does it happen to anyone else? Come on, give us the facts.
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One of VB's turnovers was a pass to DG that went off his hands and out of bounds. Box score = VB turnover. It could be argued that DG should have caught that pass.
That knife cuts both ways.
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Then help us out. How many times do those things happen? Does it happen to anyone else? Come on, give us the facts.
Mac--the things I describe happen every single game from VB.
To answer your question, they happen waaaaay too many times for my taste.
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Mac--the things I describe happen every single game from VB.
To answer your question, they happen waaaaay too many times for my taste.
As I said, give me the number of times. Include proof that it doesn't happen to anyone else.
I will save you the time. You don't have anything. You don't like Blue, so you remember the times he does it. You like DJO, Mayo, Crowder, JC and Gardner, so you will not remember when they do the same thing. Blue does the things you describe. So do all the others.
The funny thing, Mayo is loved by all - and I really like his potential - but watch his game. Watch the number of times the same things you describe happens to him (or he actually turns it over). But, that won't matter, because he can score. That is all that matters to you. Well, check the box score the past few weeks ...
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Mac--the things I describe happen every single game from VB.
To answer your question, they happen waaaaay too many times for my taste.
Finally, someone on this board that sees that same crap I do.
I know people can read box scores really well. Box scores do not tell the whole story. We R nails it. He makes stupid decisions We R described every game. And he has been doing them since game 1. That is my frustration, not hate.
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As I said, give me the number of times. Include proof that it doesn't happen to anyone else.
I will save you the time. You don't have anything. You don't like Blue, so you remember the times he does it. You like DJO, Mayo, Crowder, JC and Gardner, so you will not remember when they do the same thing. Blue does the things you describe. So do all the others.
The funny thing, Mayo is loved by all - and I really like his potential - but watch his game. Watch the number of times the same things you describe happens to him (or he actually turns it over). But, that won't matter, because he can score. That is all that matters to you. Well, check the box score the past few weeks ...
You're right. Mayo does make these mistakes although not as often as Blue. And I am sure those mistakes will reduce as THE FRESHMEN plays more. Mayo is just a freshmen though so he is making freshmen mistakes. And if he continues to make those mistakes next season, people will jump on him too.
No one else really makes those mistakes though on a per game basis. And when people say he jumps up in air not knowing what to do, we can make that determination when he makes a crappy pass from the air. Typically, you will see players make crisp kick out passes while in the air because they knew where they were going with the ball right when they took off. Vander often makes bad ones.
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As I said, give me the number of times. Include proof that it doesn't happen to anyone else.
I will save you the time. You don't have anything. You don't like Blue, so you remember the times he does it. You like DJO, Mayo, Crowder, JC and Gardner, so you will not remember when they do the same thing. Blue does the things you describe. So do all the others.
The funny thing, Mayo is loved by all - and I really like his potential - but watch his game. Watch the number of times the same things you describe happens to him (or he actually turns it over). But, that won't matter, because he can score. That is all that matters to you. Well, check the box score the past few weeks ...
Well at least you are not making some wild ass assumptions. You like him. You don't like him. Everyone loves this guy. Everyone hates this guy. I am explaining to someone who did not watch the Cuse game, that Blue's mistakes are not always quanitified in the stat book. I was discussing the Cuse game from yesterday. I am not sure what you are asking for exists. When Vb does something stupid but it doesn't make it into the stat book, you say show me the facts? Watch the games I guess.
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Crowder is the best player on this team. He is the only player that a season ending injury to would have been worse than a season ending injury to Otule.
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Crowder is the best player on this team. He is the only player that a season ending injury to would have been worse than a season ending injury to Otule.
Disagree. If Jae was the best player, then we will miss his presence next year.
That won't be the case. His slow defensive footwork and rotations will be gone and his inability to create offense won't hamper the team.
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Well at least you are not making some wild ass assumptions. You like him. You don't like him. Everyone loves this guy. Everyone hates this guy. I am explaining to someone who did not watch the Cuse game, that Blue's mistakes are not always quanitified in the stat book. I was discussing the Cuse game from yesterday. I am not sure what you are asking for exists. When Vb does something stupid but it doesn't make it into the stat book, you say show me the facts? Watch the games I guess.
As I stated, you've got nothing. Thanks for the confirmation.
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LA--what the box score does not show you the number of times VB jumps into the air, realizes he has no idea what he is going to do, and attempts to make a weak pass that at the last second is tipped out of bounds by Cuse. Box score=non event.
When VB throws the most deliberate pass that Cuse momentarily steals, bounces off their foot and out of bounds--MU ball. Box score=non event.
Neither of these plays and the close proximity of missed layups do not show up in the box score. If you want to defend VB based on box score go ahead. If you want to see what fans are talikng about, watch him play. It is far from exceptional.
Those plays show up as "non events" in the box score because, quite simply, they're not events.
When watching the St. John's game, I'd like for you to keep track of a new stat for each player: "Shoulda been a turnover" (or SBT). I look forward to reading your findings.
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Those plays show up as "non events" in the box score because, quite simply, they're not events.
When watching the St. John's game, I'd like for you to keep track of a new stat for each player: "Shoulda been a turnover" (or SBT). I look forward to reading your findings.
Crean had deflections; Buzz has paint touches; We R has "shoulda been a turnover".
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I'll take a guess as to why people love Jae...
16.5 points, 7.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 50% from the floor, 70% from the line, and 37% from 3...
Arguably the best and most valuable player on the team. I cannot see how there would be any discussion otherwise.
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I'll take a guess as to why people love Jae...
16.5 points, 7.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 50% from the floor, 70% from the line, and 37% from 3...
Arguably the best and most valuable player on the team. I cannot see how there would be any discussion otherwise.
I love him because of the way he yells "and 1" but in this case I wish he would yell "+1".
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Crean had deflections; Buzz has paint touches; We R has "shoulda been a turnover".
No Mac--real turnovers, as in leading the team in turnovers. And if he keeps playing exceptional (as some claim) at point, he will leave DJO in his dust for the TO title. I think 0-4 from the line yesterday was real. And pretty sure that 42% from the field this year is real.
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No Mac--real turnovers, as in leading the team in turnovers. And if he keeps playing exceptional (as some claim) at point, he will leave DJO in his dust for the TO title. I think 0-4 from the line yesterday was real. And pretty sure that 42% from the field this year is real.
Blue has a much better A:TO ratio than DJO (1.57 to 1.08) and is second on the team in steals. Odd you didn't mention those figures.
Blue is shooting 42.4% from the field. DJO isn't much better at 44.0%. Mayo is shooting 42.3%. Junior is shooting 41.6%. Vander is far from being Marquette's only backcourt player who has a mediocre FG%.
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Disagree. If Jae was the best player, then we will miss his presence next year.
That won't be the case. His slow defensive footwork and rotations will be gone and his inability to create offense won't hamper the team.
With Otule in the center, I doubt this would happen.
Regarding hampering the team defensively, Todd, Vander and DJO's gambles on passes have equally done so.
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Blue has a much better A:TO ratio than DJO (1.57 to 1.08) and is second on the team in steals. Odd you didn't mention those figures.
Blue is shooting 42.4% from the field. DJO isn't much better at 44.0%. Mayo is shooting 42.3%. Junior is shooting 41.6%. Vander is far from being Marquette's only backcourt player who has a mediocre FG%.
When you have a history of hitting big time shots like DJO, you get some slack. Let me know when VB hits a big shot EVER.
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Merrits point is that the numbers aren't as bad as people are making them out to be. They're consistent with other players on the team. He is the best rebounding guard, second in assists, and on a per game basis, actually behind DJO in turnovers. No one is arguing he is the best player on the team. People are just arguing that his contributions aren't "marginal" and in fact are quite valuable.
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When you have a history of hitting big time shots like DJO, you get some slack. Let me know when VB hits a big shot EVER.
He was the only one to make a shot for a 13:41 stretch of the game. Stepped right into his 3 and nailed it.
He also seems to know that 1 v 3 or 1 v 4 fast breaks aren't a good time to try and go to the rim.
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I'll take a guess as to why people love Jae...
16.5 points, 7.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 50% from the floor, 70% from the line, and 37% from 3...
Arguably the best and most valuable player on the team. I cannot see how there would be any discussion otherwise.
Can't believe it took this long. If Crowder isn't our best player, who is?
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No Mac--real turnovers, as in leading the team in turnovers. And if he keeps playing exceptional (as some claim) at point, he will leave DJO in his dust for the TO title. I think 0-4 from the line yesterday was real. And pretty sure that 42% from the field this year is real.
Changing the topic? You were upset that the stats did not show the "shoulda's". Please try to stay on your own topic. Now bringing up FT shooting as your defense? You still cannot provide facts on your original argument, so if I were you, I would probably want to change the discussion as well.
As for the TO's, he is tied for 1st with DJO and 2 ahead of Junior. You may recall (or maybe not), both those players were suspended for 1 game. I wonder if that impacts the TO/game totals? Hmmm ... it does. He then is 3rd in the team in TO's. TO/game is a much more valuable statistic.
It's not news that Vander has flaws. No one I know is arguing that. All the complaints you have with Vander, I have as well. I see his strengths and am actually pleased that as the season has progressed, he has played more to his strengths. The issue I have is Vander get's slammed by posters, such as yourself, while other's with flaws are given a pass. Has been that way from day 1. He is a valuable contributor. Yet, you seem not to understand that.
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When you have a history of hitting big time shots like DJO, you get some slack. Let me know when VB hits a big shot EVER.
What big time shots did DJO hit 16 games into his sophomore season?
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I'll take a guess as to why people love Jae...
16.5 points, 7.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 50% from the floor, 70% from the line, and 37% from 3...
Arguably the best and most valuable player on the team. I cannot see how there would be any discussion otherwise.
Count me as +1. Not to mention the Washington game and the WVU game last year, plus the argument Tim made last year that Crowder was the key to beating Syracuse in the tourney.
This is a topic?
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It's not news that Vander has flaws. No one I know is arguing that. All the complaints you have with Vander, I have as well. I see his strengths and am actually pleased that as the season has progressed, he has played more to his strengths. The issue I have is Vander get's slammed by posters, such as yourself, while other's with flaws are given a pass. Has been that way from day 1. He is a valuable contributor. Yet, you seem not to understand that.
Very well said.
In previous Vander discussions, I've said that he reminds me of a smaller version of Terrence Williams from Louisville - not a tremendous shooter/scorer but a guy who contributes in a lot of different ways. Just for comparison...
Blue as a soph: 27.3 min, 8.9 pts, 4.3 reb, 3.6 ast, 0.3 blks, 1.6 stl, 1.57 A/TO, 42.4% FG, 29.4% 3P, 62.3% FT, 1.21 PPS
TW as a soph: 33.0 min, 12.4 pts, 7.0 reb, 3.8 ast, 0.7 blks, 1.3 stl, 1.59 A/TO, 36.7% FG, 26.1% 3P, 60.4% FT, 0.98 PPS
By his senior season, Williams was arguably the most valuable player on one of the best teams in the country. Not saying that will necessarily be the case with Blue, but just because Blue's game isn't where some fans believe it should be, that doesn't mean it won't ever get there.
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Count me as +1. Not to mention the Washington game and the WVU game last year, plus the argument Tim made last year that Crowder was the key to beating Syracuse in the tourney.
This is a topic?
IMO, Crowder hasn't progressed since the end of last season. That's what is so frustrating. That and his unwillingness to put a body on somebody and actually box them out.
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IMO, Crowder hasn't progressed since the end of last season. That's what is so frustrating. That and his unwillingness to put a body on somebody and actually box them out.
I completely agree. I think Jae thinks his game is great since he fills up the stat sheet.
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The funny thing, Mayo is loved by all - and I really like his potential - but watch his game. Watch the number of times the same things you describe happens to him (or he actually turns it over). But, that won't matter, because he can score. That is all that matters to you. Well, check the box score the past few weeks ...
The fact that he can score and is a threat from three point territory is a HUGE difference. Scoring is not all that matters, but even if Mayo does not score at all he's affecting the success of our offense in a positive way. Not sure you can say that about Blue...although I have to say that Vander has played much better since BE play began. I thought he was decent against Nova and at least contributed against Syracuse. Frankly, I don't remember enough of the Georgetown game (repressed memory) but I don't recall him playing particularly poorly.
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IMO, Crowder hasn't progressed since the end of last season. That's what is so frustrating. That and his unwillingness to put a body on somebody and actually box them out.
To respond to your two specific concerns.
Last season - 11.8 ppg / 6.8 rpg. This season - 16.5 / 7.3.
Against Syracuse - five defensive rebounds. Against GU - six defensive rebounds. In fact, he's nationally ranked at defensive rebounding percentage and is the best defensive rebounder on the team.
Beyond that, he's the most efficient player on the team. He's nationally ranked at block percentages and steal percentages. He's nationally ranked at protecting the ball. Crowder isn't just arguably the best player on Marquette. He's arguably one of the best players in the country.
Seriously, this is a topic?
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To respond to your two specific concerns.
Last season - 11.8 ppg / 6.8 rpg. This season - 16.5 / 7.3.
Against Syracuse - five defensive rebounds. Against GU - six defensive rebounds. In fact, he's nationally ranked at defensive rebounding percentage and is the best defensive rebounder on the team.
Beyond that, he's the most efficient player on the team. He's nationally ranked at block percentages and steal percentages. He's nationally ranked at protecting the ball. Crowder isn't just arguably the best player on Marquette. He's arguably one of the best players in the country.
Seriously, this is a topic?
Can you track his defensive numbers for me? That is what I am mostly concerned about. I know he is an offensive warrior, but I can't say that on defense.
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The fact that he can score and is a threat from three point territory is a HUGE difference. Scoring is not all that matters, but even if Mayo does not score at all he's affecting the success of our offense in a positive way. Not sure you can say that about Blue...although I have to say that Vander has played much better since BE play began. I thought he was decent against Nova and at least contributed against Syracuse. Frankly, I don't remember enough of the Georgetown game (repressed memory) but I don't recall him playing particularly poorly.
Really? Mayo is not shooting at a significantly higher rate than Blue. In fact, he has taken some very ill advised 3 attempts and several drives look "Blue like". That said, I love his game and potential. I do not mean that as a slam on Mayo, but you do on Blue.
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To respond to your two specific concerns.
Last season - 11.8 ppg / 6.8 rpg. This season - 16.5 / 7.3.
Against Syracuse - five defensive rebounds. Against GU - six defensive rebounds. In fact, he's nationally ranked at defensive rebounding percentage and is the best defensive rebounder on the team.
Beyond that, he's the most efficient player on the team. He's nationally ranked at block percentages and steal percentages. He's nationally ranked at protecting the ball. Crowder isn't just arguably the best player on Marquette. He's arguably one of the best players in the country.
Seriously, this is a topic?
Just because his numbers have gone up, that doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player. He's playing more minutes, taking more shots and the team lost 2 of their top 4 players. That also doesn't change the fact that his defense is at times awful, he disappears for long stretches at a time and he doesn't block out on a consistent basis. That FT late in the Syracuse game, for example.
Not saying he isn't a very valuable part of the team, but he shouldn't be getting a pass on the team's recent struggles.
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Can you track his defensive numbers for me? That is what I am mostly concerned about. I know he is an offensive warrior, but I can't say that on defense.
Defensive Rebounding% - 19.0% (#245 nationally - next best for contributors on MU is Otule 16.7%)
Steal Percentage - 3.6% (#135 nationally - roughly tied with Gardner and ahead of Vander)
Block Percentage - 3.1% (#420 nationally - behind Jamil Wilson at 5% / #197)
For Stop Percentage (# of possessions he creates a stop), he's #2 on the team behind Otule at 64%. Otule is 65% but doesn't get any of the games like GU, Vandy, LSU, etc. Next best behind those two is Gardner at 59%, and then it's Jamail Jones (55%) and Vander (54%).
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I think Jae thinks his game is great since he fills up the stat sheet.
This is where the bad shot selection would come from.
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To respond to your two specific concerns.
Last season - 11.8 ppg / 6.8 rpg. This season - 16.5 / 7.3.
Against Syracuse - five defensive rebounds. Against GU - six defensive rebounds. In fact, he's nationally ranked at defensive rebounding percentage and is the best defensive rebounder on the team.
Beyond that, he's the most efficient player on the team. He's nationally ranked at block percentages and steal percentages. He's nationally ranked at protecting the ball. Crowder isn't just arguably the best player on Marquette. He's arguably one of the best players in the country.
Seriously, this is a topic?
'Stache's comment about boxing out does not reflect in the stats. It is visible and a point of frustration to me. If he puts a body on someone, he could have even more rebounds. The odd thing, he had done the hard part - getting the inside position. But he gives that up too frequently by not bodying the defender. Add to that, he is not a quick leaper (as evidenced by rebounds on FT's), thus making the technique/fundamentals/position more important.
The other complaint people have with Crowder is shot selection. You can see it in the eyes of some of the players as well. They appear to get frustrated with his shot selection. On Saturday, he chucked up three 3's early in the shot clock when MU had runs going in the 2nd half. Each one led to a transition 3 on the other end.
Lastly, he really is not a good defender. His defense is one reason making the help defense necessary. People rotate down to cover his lapse, which leaves a man open.
I like Crowder and MU would be in a world of hurt without him. I do, though, see the flaws and they hurt MU.
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Just because his numbers have gone up, that doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player. He's playing more minutes, taking more shots and the team lost 2 of their top 4 players. That also doesn't change the fact that his defense is at times awful, he disappears for long stretches at a time and he doesn't block out on a consistent basis. That FT late in the Syracuse game, for example.
Not saying he isn't a very valuable part of the team, but he shouldn't be getting a pass on the team's recent struggles.
Actually, considering he's more efficient than last year while increasing his scoring, it does mean he's a better player. And while he may not be the perfect defensive player, he's the best defensive player on Marquette. Of course, that's not really saying much. Finally, I would like you to point out a player that does not disappear for long stretches at a time.
Of all the issues with this team, Jae is last. Absolutely last.
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'Stache's comment about boxing out does not reflect in the stats. It is visible and a point of frustration to me. If he puts a body on someone, he could have even more rebounds. The odd thing, he had done the hard part - getting the inside position. But he gives that up too frequently by not bodying the defender. Add to that, he is not a quick leaper (as evidenced by rebounds on FT's), thus making the technique/fundamentals/position more important.
The other complaint people have with Crowder is shot selection. You can see it in the eyes of some of the players as well. They appear to get frustrated with his shot selection. On Saturday, he chucked up three 3's early in the shot clock when MU had runs going in the 2nd half. Each one led to a transition 3 on the other end.
Lastly, he really is not a good defender. His defense is one reason making the help defense necessary. People rotate down to cover his lapse, which leaves a man open.
I like Crowder and MU would be in a world of hurt without him. I do, though, see the flaws and they hurt MU.
I see the flaws with his game. Crowder isn't perfect, and he isn't even close to it. However, when it comes to defense, I place more blame with Buzz's defensive scheme than on individual players.
Criticizing Jae's shot selection is availability bias. He's the most efficient player on the team. Were those poorly timed shots in the second half of one game? Yes. Are those largely reflective of his overall game? I say no.
In the last four min of the game, Jae shot 1-2 from three, assisted on DJO's three, and had a steal (that Jr promptly turned over).
Jae is the least of MU's concerns. Why is this a thread again?
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Of all the issues with this team, Jae is last. Absolutely last.
+1.
You can find fault with any player if you try hard enough, especially ones with the green light from the coaches to shoot. Your best players will be told to shoot when they feel they should and that may result in a bad shot or over aggressive play at times, but that's what you get with talented, athletic, confident players.
Jae will be all conference this year, BTW, i'm just shocked that there is this much discussion about his value to the team...
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Jae is the least of MU's concerns. Why is this a thread again?
Can we at least agree that DJO is getting pass from a lot of people here?
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You can find fault with any player if you try hard enough, especially ones with the green light from the coaches to shoot. Your best players will be told to shoot when they feel they should and that may result in a bad shot or over aggressive play at times, but that's what you get with talented, athletic, confident players.
I think that was the purpose of this thread. Jae has been free from any criticism, until this thread. At the same times, others are excoriated. He has flaws, but his strengths outweigh his flaws. Unfortunately, that is not acceptable for some players ...
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Can we at least agree that DJO is getting pass from a lot of people here?
+1
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Can we at least agree that DJO is getting pass from a lot of people here?
Absolutely. I think *this* is a much more reasonable discussion.
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Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.
On the floor, Jae and Jimmy are such different players. Jae prefers playing outside on offense and is not an especially good finisher. Jimmy could take it inside. Jimmy could guard anybody; defense is not Jae's strength.
Together, they were a nice combo, but Jae has nobody in the frontcourt to play off of this season. And when DJO is struggling, as has been the case quite often lately, it makes Jae's job all the more difficult. Jimmy had Jae last season and Lazar the year before that; it does make a difference.
Even as a rebounder, Jae is not the greatest at boxing out and out-hustling opponents. The same certainly can be said of Davante, so they aren't the best combo when it comes to controlling the boards. Again, compared to Jimmy-Otule-Jae, we have problems.
All that being said, I appreciate the things Jae does well and agree he is the least of our problems. Were every MU player as good at his role as Jae is at his, we'd only have one or two losses.
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I see the flaws with his game. Crowder isn't perfect, and he isn't even close to it. However, when it comes to defense, I place more blame with Buzz's defensive scheme than on individual players.
Criticizing Jae's shot selection is availability bias. He's the most efficient player on the team. Were those poorly timed shots in the second half of one game? Yes. Are those largely reflective of his overall game? I say no.
In the last four min of the game, Jae shot 1-2 from three, assisted on DJO's three, and had a steal (that Jr promptly turned over).
Jae is the least of MU's concerns. Why is this a thread again?
I never said they were reflective of his overall game. He does, though, take the ill advised shot. A legitimate complaint. Fortunately, his overall games is able to ovecome that - which is why he plays so many minutes.
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Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.
On the floor, Jae and Jimmy are such different players. Jae prefers playing outside on offense and is not an especially good finisher. Jimmy could take it inside. Jimmy could guard anybody; defense is not Jae's strength.
Together, they were a nice combo, but Jae has nobody in the frontcourt to play off of this season. And when DJO is struggling, as has been the case quite often lately, it makes Jae's job all the more difficult. Jimmy had Jae last season and Lazar the year before that; it does make a difference.
Even as a rebounder, Jae is not the greatest at boxing out and out-hustling opponents. The same certainly can be said of Davante, so they aren't the best combo when it comes to controlling the boards. Again, compared to Jimmy-Otule-Jae, we have problems.
All that being said, I appreciate the things Jae does well and agree he is the least of our problems. Were every MU player as good at his role as Jae is at his, we'd only have one or two losses.
I think Jae is a better interior scorer than you might be giving him credit for. The problem is that he likes to float out to the 3 pt line too often.
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Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.
On the floor, Jae and Jimmy are such different players. Jae prefers playing outside on offense and is not an especially good finisher. Jimmy could take it inside. Jimmy could guard anybody; defense is not Jae's strength.
Together, they were a nice combo, but Jae has nobody in the frontcourt to play off of this season. And when DJO is struggling, as has been the case quite often lately, it makes Jae's job all the more difficult. Jimmy had Jae last season and Lazar the year before that; it does make a difference.
Even as a rebounder, Jae is not the greatest at boxing out and out-hustling opponents. The same certainly can be said of Davante, so they aren't the best combo when it comes to controlling the boards. Again, compared to Jimmy-Otule-Jae, we have problems.
All that being said, I appreciate the things Jae does well and agree he is the least of our problems. Were every MU player as good at his role as Jae is at his, we'd only have one or two losses.
Very good post. Interesting comparison to Jimmy last year. Jae ended up being Jimmy to Lazar's Jimmy. I was hopoing Wilson would be that guy this year. Unfortunately, he is not as strong on the inside as I hoped. He could, though, take the midrange part of the game that could benefit Crowder's play.
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Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping DJO Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.
Dont know if its what people are implying but Jae certainly isnt the sole leader of the team.
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Just as Jimmy took over the leadership role from Lazar, I think lots of MU folks were hoping Jae would take over now that Jimmy is gone. I'm not sure, exactly, how one measures leadership, but I think there's a perception Jae hasn't succeeded in this regard.
On the floor, Jae and Jimmy are such different players. Jae prefers playing outside on offense and is not an especially good finisher. Jimmy could take it inside. Jimmy could guard anybody; defense is not Jae's strength.
Together, they were a nice combo, but Jae has nobody in the frontcourt to play off of this season. And when DJO is struggling, as has been the case quite often lately, it makes Jae's job all the more difficult. Jimmy had Jae last season and Lazar the year before that; it does make a difference.
Even as a rebounder, Jae is not the greatest at boxing out and out-hustling opponents. The same certainly can be said of Davante, so they aren't the best combo when it comes to controlling the boards. Again, compared to Jimmy-Otule-Jae, we have problems.
All that being said, I appreciate the things Jae does well and agree he is the least of our problems. Were every MU player as good at his role as Jae is at his, we'd only have one or two losses.
For the most part, I think you are on target.
I'd agree with Sultan on undervaluing Crowder's inside game. It's there but since he floats out so much it's ignored for the most part.
One area I quibble with is leadership. I stated last year and stand by it now, MU suffered from a lack of it on the court and it showed in the results. I don't think that has changed this year. It is a collective leadership whereas when all is going well the road bumps can be smoothed but when adversity sinks in, there is a void to where one single player can lift the team.
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Very well said.
In previous Vander discussions, I've said that he reminds me of a smaller version of Terrence Williams from Louisville - not a tremendous shooter/scorer but a guy who contributes in a lot of different ways. Just for comparison...
Blue as a soph: 27.3 min, 8.9 pts, 4.3 reb, 3.6 ast, 0.3 blks, 1.6 stl, 1.57 A/TO, 42.4% FG, 29.4% 3P, 62.3% FT, 1.21 PPS
TW as a soph: 33.0 min, 12.4 pts, 7.0 reb, 3.8 ast, 0.7 blks, 1.3 stl, 1.59 A/TO, 36.7% FG, 26.1% 3P, 60.4% FT, 0.98 PPS
By his senior season, Williams was arguably the most valuable player on one of the best teams in the country. Not saying that will necessarily be the case with Blue, but just because Blue's game isn't where some fans believe it should be, that doesn't mean it won't ever get there.
Why do people just look at season averages? Box scores do not really tell the story nor do season averages. It is a statistical fact that Blue has scored the majority of his points against bad teams. He struggled last year against BE teams and he is struggling this year. TW tallied double figure point totals in 13 of 18 BE games. He had 4 double doubles in BE play. Again, these are stats and this does not tell the whole story. I get that.
First off, they are two completely different players in my opinion. Blue stats are falling off a cliff now. People say great defender. He has 2 steals and one block in three BE games. People compare Mayo's FG% to Blue. You can't if you actually watch the games. Gardner shoots 59% from the field. Most would say, "Well, he is a big so he shoots much closer to the basket and therefore his FG% should be better." Absolutely correct. But Blue shoots the majority of his shots within 5 feet and he shoots 43%. That is why can not compare FG% of Mayo to Blue. Mayo shoots 3's, 17 footers, and lay ups while Blue primarily shoots layups.
Finally, the "love" for Mayo (even though I think it is cooling for most) is because when a freshmen produces like he has, you are playing with house money. As a fan or program, you can not anticipate a freshmen coming and contributing like he has. And he gets a pass on his mistakes in many ways because he is still a freshmen. Blue is not a freshmen. Blue has played tons of minutes and he continues to make freshmen mistakes as a sophomore.
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First off, they are two completely different players in my opinion. Blue stats are falling off a cliff now.
But see, they really aren't falling off a cliff. He is stealing the ball and scoring less, which are probably connected.
However his rebounds, assists, turnovers are all not significantly different.
And again, steals aren't a great measure of defense. This is the same absurd philosophy that suggested that Jerel McNeal was a better defender than Dominic James.
Again, he is not a "marginal player" on this team...
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But see, they really aren't falling off a cliff. He is stealing the ball and scoring less, which are probably connected.
However his rebounds, assists, turnovers are all not significantly different.
And again, steals aren't a great measure of defense. This is the same absurd philosophy that suggested that Jerel McNeal was a better defender than Dominic James.
Again, he is not a "marginal player" on this team...
I will completely agree that low steals=bad defense. But he is getting 0 blocks and .667 steals per BE game, that isn't great defense either. And at the same time, you can't say, DJO 44%, Mayo 43%, Blue 42% from the field so they have similar offensive ability. DJO and Mayo score in a variety of ways while Blue scores primarily through uncontested or little resistance lay ups. Ultimately, his athleticism allows him to get into a position to shoot a high percentage shot and yet he shoots on a low percentage. Dude should have about 13ppg and this team desperately needs a third scorer.
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Why do people just look at season averages? Box scores do not really tell the story nor do season averages. It is a statistical fact that Blue has scored the majority of his points against bad teams. He struggled last year against BE teams and he is struggling this year. TW tallied double figure point totals in 13 of 18 BE games. He had 4 double doubles in BE play. Again, these are stats and this does not tell the whole story. I get that.
So basically it's all about scoring points for you, huh? Yes, TW scored double figures in 13 of 18 BE games but he shot 36% from floor in doing so. He averaged 12 shots per game and made 4.3 of them. He scored just 199 points on 191 FG attempts. If Blue was putting up those numbers you'd be satisfied with his offensive game?
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And at the same time, you can't say, DJO 44%, Mayo 43%, Blue 42% from the field so they have similar offensive ability.
I never said that. What I have said from the beginning that he adds a lot of value to the team based on what he does on the defensive end, his attacking the defense, and rebounding very well for his position. Yeah the team needs a third scorer. But that's really not what he does...but what he does adds value.
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I will completely agree that low steals=bad defense. But he is getting 0 blocks and .667 steals per BE game, that isn't great defense either. And at the same time, you can't say, DJO 44%, Mayo 43%, Blue 42% from the field so they have similar offensive ability. DJO and Mayo score in a variety of ways while Blue scores primarily through uncontested or little resistance lay ups. Ultimately, his athleticism allows him to get into a position to shoot a high percentage shot and yet he shoots on a low percentage. Dude should have about 13ppg and this team desperately needs a third scorer.
Why do people just look at season averages? Box scores do not really tell the story nor do season averages. It is a statistical fact that Blue has scored the majority of his points against bad teams (isn't that true for most/all of the players?).
Dude, you're kind of all over the map here. Sometimes stats are good indicators, sometimes you can't use them.
We are only 3 games into Big East play, so it's tough to make a lot of sweeping judgements on that, right?
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So basically it's all about scoring points for you, huh? Yes, TW scored double figures in 13 of 18 BE games but he shot 36% from floor in doing so. He averaged 12 shots per game and made 4.3 of them. He scored just 199 points on 191 FG attempts. If Blue was putting up those numbers you'd be satisfied with his offensive game?
I never said that. What I have said from the beginning that he adds a lot of value to the team based on what he does on the defensive end, his attacking the defense, and rebounding very well for his position. Yeah the team needs a third scorer. But that's really not what he does...but what he does adds value.
MM, I can't stress enough that you have to look at his play and not his numbers. I watched every game for the past few years. Blue tooks very uncomfortable driving and finishing. I don't need stats to see what kind of player he is because I watch every game. There is no doubt that he rebounds well and he is very active too where he creates rebounding opportunities for other players. Unfortunately, scoring is an important aspect of the game and that is why he will probably start splitting minutes if he can't produce.
South, you said "That's really not what he does..." but he does do that. He drives into the lane with an much frequency as anyone else on the team. The problem is he blows lay ups. If he finished at a decent rate, he would be that third scorer and this team's offense would be that much more dynamic.
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Dude, you're kind of all over the map here. Sometimes stats are good indicators, sometimes you can't use them.
We are only 3 games into Big East play, so it's tough to make a lot of sweeping judgements on that, right?
Stats are not important in judging a player in my opinion. But people use stats to make their opinions about players. When I use stats, I am using stats to show that simply showing box score stats can paint a variety of pictures.
All my points are based around that his athletic ability put him in a position to shoot a high percentage shot and he shoots a low percentage and has a high turnover rate. He has had all the opportunity in the world that a freshmen and sophomore can ask for to improve and he hasn't improved that much. When he drives, the majority of the time, it results in a blown lay up, a poor kick out pass, or a turnover. I think it is time to start looking in some other directions. Blue has the makings to be a solid sixth man. I think we should start looking to see if we can get some improvements/production from giving more minutes to Jones and Mayo.
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ErickJD08 - do you give Blue any credit for being one of the sparks (along with Cadougan) for the 2nd half at Cuse? He was energetic and constantly pushing it which is exactly what we needed. He also hit a big three late in the first when we couldn't get anything going. He and Cadougan were driving me crazy in the first but they were our 2nd half co-MVP's. If we can get both of them to play more like the 2nd half and less like the first, this team will be just fine.
BTW - If Blue puts up 9 pts, 7 boards, 5 assists, 3 to's on 3/5 from 2 and 1/3 from 3 every game I'd take that in a heartbeat. Obviously rather see FT's in his usual high 60% range than 0/4 but you get the gist.
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ErickJD08 - do you give Blue any credit for being one of the sparks (along with Cadougan) for the 2nd half at Cuse? He was energetic and constantly pushing it which is exactly what we needed. He also hit a big three late in the first when we couldn't get anything going. He and Cadougan were driving me crazy in the first but they were our 2nd half co-MVP's. If we can get both of them to play more like the 2nd half and less like the first, this team will be just fine.
BTW - If Blue puts up 9 pts, 7 boards, 5 assists, 3 to's on 3/5 from 2 and 1/3 from 3 every game I'd take that in a heartbeat. Obviously rather see FT's in his usual high 60% range than 0/4 but you get the gist.
Again, he gets credit for those stats. Those are great stats for a 6th man, not an athetic guard in a uptempto offense starting for his second year. His shooting percentage is OK but not for a guard that primarily shoots within 5 feet of the rim.
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Again, he gets credit for those stats. Those are great stats for a 6th man, not an athetic guard in a uptempto offense starting for his second year. His shooting percentage is OK but not for a guard that primarily shoots within 5 feet of the rim.
I thought stats don't matter? Also, Vander only started 12 of 37 games last year.
Finally, find me a 6th man who averages 7 boards, 5 assists.
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South, you said "That's really not what he does..." but he does do that. He drives into the lane with an much frequency as anyone else on the team. The problem is he blows lay ups. If he finished at a decent rate, he would be that third scorer and this team's offense would be that much more dynamic.
So is this really what it breaks down to for you? He *should* be more of a scorer but isn't?
I'm trying to limit my evaluation of him on what he actually does when he is on the floor, not some sort of projection on what he should be doing that he isn't.
Again, he gets credit for those stats. Those are great stats for a 6th man, not an athetic guard in a uptempto offense starting for his second year.
He didn't regularly start last year.
His stats to date are roughly equal to Buycks from last year. DB was a better shooter....VB a better rebounder...exact same number of TOs. Roughly equal ppg and apg. And Buycks started most of last year.
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I hate that a Blue discussion has hi-jacked yet another thread. But my two cents.
Blue should shoot a better percentage relative to other players because we don't ask him to shoot unless he's wide open or it's a layup. Guys like Mayo and DJO are counted on to take shots, especially when the clock is running out or we can't find a shot. We ask/need Mayo to be a scorer when he comes into the game. If he's not scoring he's not playing. Blue's shooting better % because he hardly ever shoots unless its a really really good shot. If all our players were that way we'd have a lot of shot clock violations.
As far as Blue vs Cadougan at the point, I think the offense runs better with Cadougan at the point and the team plays better offense when he's running things. But Blue is inexperienced at the position and is likely to have a strong improvement curve as he gets used to the job and the rest of the team gets used to him. He is a more creative player than Cadougan, but also more reckless (or careless if you prefer). Blue is more likely to make a great pass and more likely to make a terrible pass. Cadougan probably has a better handle, but neither of them are as good ball-on-a-string ballhandlers as you'd like your point to be, so neither of them handle hard ball pressure terribly well, as they tend to just try to avoid turning it over as opposed to initiating offense. Obviously Blue is the much better defender.
In the end, PG is like all of our positions. we have imperfect players and we try to mix and match them as best we can to get a positive result.
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Again, he gets credit for those stats. Those are great stats for a 6th man, not an athetic guard in a uptempto offense starting for his second year. His shooting percentage is OK but not for a guard that primarily shoots within 5 feet of the rim.
A 6th man in the NBA, yes. If he averages 9/7/5 the rest of conference play those are valuable college starters' stats with DJO & Crowder as the 1st and 2nd option followed by Mayo and Gardner as 3rd and 4th. He's our second best passer after Cadougan and our third best rebounder after Crowder and probably Gardner. Yet he has no place in our starting lineup?
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I just don't get it.
I appreciate what he does, but he's an junker of a player.
Why isn't anyone hating on him? He has not progressed as a player. He's one of the worst defenders on the team. He disappears for long stretches.
His game isn't that good. He is our only option, but as the focal point of the offense we need a better player.
It is amazing that everytime I got a road game people come up to me in awe of how awesome Crowder is, but then we still have a few posts like this.
Well, sorry I was off duty with a client issue when you posted this - couldn't disagree more. With Otule out we'd be dead without his ability to give us someone to muscle up against 6-11 guys and steal and block shots. By far the most important thing a defender does is grab rebounds to end possessions, so Crowder is among the top few players in the country in overall offensive performance and never turning the ball over, and also among the leaders in shooting, defensive rebounds, blocks and steals if you just run down the line in Ken Pom. Statistically he is easily one of the top 5 players in the Big East this year. When he is off shooting, he is still extremely valuable, while with a guy like DJO, he can dominate a game when he is on but when it isn't he really doesn't give you anything.
So I just thought to myself, maybe I'm just not seeing that his on-ball defense is just so bad that it offsets everything else. So I sought out some expert, non-Marquette input on this, and will just say he is viewed as an excellent defender who can guard multiple positions, and has to do so due to Marquette's current height problems.
The only thing I will agree on is that if you are going to compare him to Lazar, he will lose that battle. Clearly, Lazar was one of a kind on so many levels.
But we are 9-7 and hoping for an NIT bid without him.
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It is amazing that everytime I got a road game people come up to me in awe of how awesome Crowder is, but then we still have a few posts like this.
Well, sorry I was off duty with a client issue when you posted this - couldn't disagree more. With Otule out we'd be dead without his ability to give us someone to muscle up against 6-11 guys and steal and block shots. By far the most important thing a defender does is grab rebounds to end possessions, so Crowder is among the top few players in the country in overall offensive performance and never turning the ball over, and also among the leaders in shooting, defensive rebounds, blocks and steals if you just run down the line in Ken Pom. Statistically he is easily one of the top 5 players in the Big East this year. When he is off shooting, he is still extremely valuable, while with a guy like DJO, he can dominate a game when he is on but when it isn't he really doesn't give you anything.
So I just thought to myself, maybe I'm just not seeing that his on-ball defense is just so bad that it offsets everything else. So I sought out some expert, non-Marquette input on this, and will just say he is viewed as an excellent defender who can guard multiple positions, and has to do so due to Marquette's current height problems.
The only thing I will agree on is that if you are going to compare him to Lazar, he will lose that battle. Clearly, Lazar was one of a kind on so many levels.
But we are 9-7 and hoping for an NIT bid without him.
Really? People just randomly approach you in the arena, jaw-to-the-floor to tell you how good Crowder is? ;)
Of course, MU would struggle without him...and they'd be better if they had Sullinger or Zeller instead. That's not the issue. I don't think that anyone is saying that he's not a good player or not a big contributor to the team. The point is that there are numerous threads bashing Blue for everything from not scoring enough to having too many almost TOs to not giving a "slap of 5" when prompted, yet Crowder can let a bigger, slower guy drive right around him on the biggest possession of a game and there's barely a word written about it. There are long stretches of games where you wouldn't even know he's on the court - not mentioned. He is often out of position on D and he rarely boxes out - no threads about those issues. In fact, posters often excuse those things. If the most important thing that a defender does is rebound, how much would Jae's value skyrocket if he actually started boxing out from time to time?
Look, I'm not trying to knock Jae. He's one of my favorite players on the team. I want him to do well and he seems like a good kid. The problem is that he hasn't progressed all that much from last season. Maybe we've just been spoiled with Lazar and Jimmy and I was expecting to much from him. Maybe he is what he is: a solid role player being forced into being "the man."
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Look, I'm not trying to knock Jae. He's one of my favorite players on the team. I want him to do well and he seems like a good kid. The problem is that he hasn't progressed all that much from last season. Maybe we've just been spoiled with Lazar and Jimmy and I was expecting to much from him. Maybe he is what he is: a solid role player being forced into being "the man."
I think Jae is better than he was last year because he is much more consistent on a game to game basis. Much of that is due to doing a better job at avoiding foul trouble in first half of games ('Nova & UW-Madison being the exceptions).
I say this about Jae, he is really active and the guy plays his ass off out on the court. However, his game is not fundamentally sound on the defensive end; see rotations, awareness and boxing out. However, I have a hard time getting on him, because he does play so hard and I really think he is getting everything he can out of his talents.
Just compared Jae athletically to Lazar or JFB... He's nowhere close to those two guys. Yet, he is an extremely productive and efficient player, putting up all-around numbers that are very similar to those two.
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Stats are not important in judging a player in my opinion. But people use stats to make their opinions about players. When I use stats, I am using stats to show that simply showing box score stats can paint a variety of pictures.
All my points are based around that his athletic ability put him in a position to shoot a high percentage shot and he shoots a low percentage and has a high turnover rate. He has had all the opportunity in the world that a freshmen and sophomore can ask for to improve and he hasn't improved that much. When he drives, the majority of the time, it results in a blown lay up, a poor kick out pass, or a turnover. I think it is time to start looking in some other directions. Blue has the makings to be a solid sixth man. I think we should start looking to see if we can get some improvements/production from giving more minutes to Jones and Mayo.
It's ironic that Vander's game doesn't translate well to box scores (because he doesn't score), and the guy saying we shouldn't use box scores is the guy who seems to be hardest on him.
I actually think Vander's game is impressive in person because of everything he is able to do. As the kid develops, I think he could dominate a game while only score 8pts because of all his other strengths.
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It's ironic that Vander's game doesn't translate well to box scores (because he doesn't score), and the guy saying we shouldn't use box scores is the guy who seems to be hardest on him.
I actually think Vander's game is impressive in person because of everything he is able to do. As the kid develops, I think he could dominate a game while only score 8pts because of all his other strengths.
It is impressive to consistently miss lay ups and have your shot swatted into the 5th row every game.
I am not sure if I have ever seen a guard dominate a game with multiple turnovers, no steals, no blocks, a low FG% while scoring only 8 points. Maybe if he grabs 30 boards... if he does that, I'll give it to you, he would be dominating.
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IMO, Crowder hasn't progressed since the end of last season. That's what is so frustrating. That and his unwillingness to put a body on somebody and actually box them out.
Do you realize how much time he missed last year because of foul trouble. To say he has not progressed is not realistic. Last year the front court defenses would have focus on Butler. This year they are focusing on Jae. They do not need to focus on Blue and Wilson. Gardner they do.
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It is impressive to consistently miss lay ups and have your shot swatted into the 5th row every game.
I am not sure if I have ever seen a guard dominate a game with multiple turnovers, no steals, no blocks, a low FG% while scoring only 8 points. Maybe if he grabs 30 boards... if he does that, I'll give it to you, he would be dominating.
A wise man once said that box scores don't tell the whole story.
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A wise man once said that box scores don't tell the whole story.
A wise man told me he was impressed my blown layups. Have fun with the head in the sand buddy.
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Really? People just randomly approach you in the arena, jaw-to-the-floor to tell you how good Crowder is? ;)
As hard as it is to believe, this does happen, but it isn't random. It is because I am a nerd who does things like show up over an hour early for the LSU game, so the other nuts who are there that early from LSU figure I'm a guy to come over too. Then I stay for a half hour after the loss, and several fans came up to me because they couldn't believe I told them before the game (when they were begging for mercy) that they were going to beat us if we let the game slow down. So don't envision someone seeking me out from amoung 8,000 fans, rather they seek me out as the lonely guy surrounded by lots of empty seats :-)
But Jae has progressed tremendously this year, but was really fantastic last year too. I can show it with numbers, but obviously we can disagree on subjective matters. And I did misspeak on one item - I said defensive rebounding was the most important thing you can do on defense, and i meant the most important you can measure objectively on defense. A great on ball defender who alters shots and forces turnovers is more important, we just can't measure it.
While we were spoiled by Lazar, I do believe guys went by Jimmy much more consistently than they go by Crowder. Then Jimmy had his big breakthrough when he started being used to go out and take on guards away from the basket, and he was really good at that and i believe it was the difference in millions of dollars for him.
But no, I wasn't trying to get into the criticism of Blue. Blue certainly can hurt the team when his offense is so bad it offsets his great defense, but against Syracuse he showed the explosiveness he can have going to the court - and if he can just do that on offense then he is a great defensive player. Obviously he can't finish great drives with 0 for 4 from the line, but except for that game, hsi free throws have looked better too, and that 3-pointer really gives me hope. If he ever hits one early and start coming out on him, his drive will become so much more lethal - but i do admit I was holding my breath when it went up.
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A wise man told me he was impressed my blown layups. Have fun with the head in the sand buddy.
I agree that Vander needs to get stronger and more under control to finish in the lane.
But, I also know that he is a work in progress, so my expectations are for him to miss some shots (yes, even lay-ups).
Our evaluations of Vander are similar. Our reactions to his play are vastly different. You've set different expectations for him, and thus you are disappointed.
He's a role player on a team of 2 "stars" and 5-6 role players. That's it. No more, no less. I'm not mad at a soph. for having holes in his game and being a role player.
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I'm surprised Mayo isn't getting more criticism of late. 33% shooting in the last 6, under 8 ppg, and an abysmal 1:3 assist to turnover ratio.
It seems like MU fans are quick to point out the flaws of highly rated players (Blue, Jones, NJCAA POY Crowder) but never want to find fault with lower profile (Gardner, Mayo) recruits.
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I'm surprised Mayo isn't getting more criticism of late. 33% shooting in the last 6, under 8 ppg, and an abysmal 1:3 assist to turnover ratio.
It seems like MU fans are quick to point out the flaws of highly rated players (Blue, Jones, NJCAA POY Crowder) but never want to find fault with lower profile (Gardner, Mayo) recruits.
I have pointed that out and the response back has been "he's a freshman" (although, he is nearly 18 months older than Blue and Blue never received that defense) and that he is a better shooter (I take that to mean early results outweigh recent history).
Personally, I think Mayo has hit the freshman wall. Typically that lasts 2-3 weeks. I am expecting him to break back this week or next.
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I agree that Vander needs to get stronger and more under control to finish in the lane.
But, I also know that he is a work in progress, so my expectations are for him to miss some shots (yes, even lay-ups).
Our evaluations of Vander are similar. Our reactions to his play are vastly different. You've set different expectations for him, and thus you are disappointed.
He's a role player on a team of 2 "stars" and 5-6 role players. That's it. No more, no less. I'm not mad at a soph. for having holes in his game and being a role player.
+1 Well stated. I bolded one paragraph for emphasis.
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I hope MUMAC is correct that Mayo has hit the freshman wall and will come out of it in 2-3 weeks. We need Mayo to start contributing big time with his scoring and D.
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to me crowder is our best and smartest player!
we play best when he is on the floor and really struggle when he is not in there
not always flashy and for sure too many 3's but his toughness is contagious and keeps us in games down low (esp. in the big east) with a guard dominated lineup...
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Loving me some Jae tonight. Two dumb early fouls gives Davante huge minutes, a career game, and hopefully the momentum to kept himself mentally strong dfor the rest of the year.
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Jae surprised me tonight. Foul trouble early on and invisible at times in the first half, yet still managed to tally 15 points, 9 rebounds, and 4 steals. It was a DJO-like performance...quiet but effective.
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Jae surprised me tonight. Foul trouble early on and invisible at times in the first half, yet still managed to tally 15 points, 9 rebounds, and 4 steals. It was a DJO-like performance...quiet but effective.
I would have to look closer, but I thought he poured it on after the score was +15.
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Jae was terrific in the second half. When he sits, MU really misses his presence out on the floor.
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I would have to look closer, but I thought he poured it on after the score was +15.
I'd guess the same, it certainly wasn't in the opening 20. But like DJO earlier this year when you'd look at his line and think "how the hell did he get 20?", Crowder had one of those nights where he put up a good line quietly. I have to imagine a number of those rebounds came earlier, at the very least. And it's nice to see him NOT foul out. He played smarter in the second (and some pretty good D).
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I would have to look closer, but I thought he poured it on after the score was +15.
4 of those points came in the run that opened the second half to put us up big. Another 4 in the first half. Use some came in garbage time but he was still a valuable contributor tonight.
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4 of those points came in the run that opened the second half to put us up big. Another 4 in the first half. Use some came in garbage time but he was still a valuable contributor tonight.
Thanks for doing the legwork. Crowder is arguably our MVP. A lot of really dumb threads pop up on here after rough road losses to top 10 teams.
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4 of those points came in the run that opened the second half to put us up big. Another 4 in the first half. Use some came in garbage time but he was still a valuable contributor tonight.
This exactly. He went inside early in the 2nd half and made some big buckets. First half was a nightmare for him, with two hand fouls. Can't slap at the ball, esepcially early in the game. When Buzz put him back in with DJO to stabilize the team, he was - understandably - tentative.
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This exactly. He went inside early in the 2nd half and made some big buckets. First half was a nightmare for him, with two hand fouls. Can't slap at the ball, esepcially early in the game. When Buzz put him back in with DJO to stabilize the team, he was - understandably - tentative.
I've been critical of Jae lately because he's invisible for stretches and his defense and boxing out need some work, but it's definitely a different/better team with him on the floor. Even when he was tentative late in the first half, his presense on the floor was crucial because he was an offensive threat and had to be accounted for. Even though he wasn't scoring much, he was helping to open things up for Gardner and for drives.
After the 2 quick fouls, a nice game from Jae.
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15 points on 7 of 10 shooting, 9 rebounds 4 steals, 2 blocks, 2 assists and only 1 turnover in 23 minutes.......wow.
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Jae played a good half...
What happens when Vander only plays one good half?
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Hope Jae's got a second half in him after that great first.
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JAE!