Some trash talking going on at the end between Tu Holloway and a Cinci player. Another XU player comes over and pushes Cinci player and then the brawl started.
Yancy Gates clocked Kenny Frease in the face. There are going to be a whole lot of suspensions from this one, and Gates is going to be gone for a while. He seemed to keep it going.
This game was long over when the fight started with 9 seconds left.
Why is Holloway even on the floor up by 23 with less than a minute left?
Here's the video for those who haven't seen it. The Gates sucker punch is going to cost him dearly. I say 10 games would be lenient.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnAkbF0wea8&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnAkbF0wea8&feature=youtu.be)
Did you also see Gates fire the ball in at the very beginning of the fight?
Weaponizing a basketball.
CINNingNASTY
Yup, Yancy will be lucky to see the court again this season.
Boys will be thugs. Someone probably ripped someone as a motherpucker.
he's going to have legal problems with this, like assault charges.
Quote from: Sheriff on December 10, 2011, 01:49:53 PM
Why is Holloway even on the floor up by 23 with less than a minute left?
Mack was trying to get some payback for last year's 20 point lost to Cincy.
Unfortunately, you could see this fight coming. Guys were jawing at each other all game and Cincy basically quit with about 2 minutes to go as XU kept it's starters on the floor.
Gates completely decked Frease. Who gives out suspensions, the NCAA or the conferences?
If this were the NBA, Gates would be gone an easy 10 games.
Cheikh Mbodj stomped on Frease after Frease was on the ground from Gates' punch. He'll be getting a big suspension too.
Here's another video of it with commentary.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Gkj_kWh7sZI
Lots of suspensions coming here. Looks like Gates punched Holloway as well, if this caption is correct.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/photos?gameId=313442752&photoId=1729756#photo_1729772
Quote from: MU PoopScoop on December 10, 2011, 02:05:13 PM
Yup, Yancy will be lucky to see the court again this season.
I don't know about that, but I would guess he won't make an appearance for a month.
Quote from: drewm88 on December 10, 2011, 02:39:30 PM
Lots of suspensions coming here. Looks like Gates punched Holloway as well, if this caption is correct.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/photos?gameId=313442752&photoId=1729756#photo_1729772
how did the photog get that shot? whoa.
I think Yancy may be done for good.
Don't understand why so many regulars were playing at that point in the game though...both sides. So I will blame the coaches too. And Thuggins for creating the environment years ago. Did anyone's brother come out of the stands for this one??
Quote from: drewm88 on December 10, 2011, 02:39:30 PM
Lots of suspensions coming here. Looks like Gates punched Holloway as well, if this caption is correct.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/photos?gameId=313442752&photoId=1729756#photo_1729772
Holloway has no business doing what he was doing either. The Xavier players, including Holloway should be suspended as well. I saw a couple of punches thrown by Xavier players, including Holloway. Not a powerful as Gates, but still punches. That said, Gates will get the largest suspension.
Really unimpressed with Holloway's actions here. He really kept the fight going. Got into it with several players, threw punches. He needs to go the 2nd longest - maybe even as long as Gates. Looked to me like Holloway is just another punk.
Quote from: MU PoopScoop on December 10, 2011, 02:05:13 PM
Yup, Yancy will be lucky to see the court again this season.
I know this was worse, but Brittney Griner only got 2 games for decking that girl last year. I wouldn't be surprised if it was only 5-10 games.
My parents brought me up to hate Cincinnati basketball, and this is why. For my 21 years of life, that team has put more thugs in uniforms than the Mean Machine.
Quote from: MUMac on December 10, 2011, 03:08:33 PM
Holloway has no business doing what he was doing either. The Xavier players, including Holloway should be suspended as well. I saw a couple of punches thrown by Xavier players, including Holloway. Not a powerful as Gates, but still punches. That said, Gates will get the largest suspension.
Where are the Holloway punches? I didn't see any. I saw him jawing back and forth, then I saw a Cincinnati player put his hand on Holloway's face, and another Xavier player push him away. I actually feel pretty bad for the X guys. They didn't instigate any of the touching and were winning the game. The X player that will probably get the worst is the guy who shoved Gates when he was touching Holloway at the beginning, which sucks because thats what you do if someone puts their hands on your teammate like that.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 10, 2011, 03:14:48 PM
Where are the Holloway punches? I didn't see any. I saw him jawing back and forth, then I saw a Cincinnati player put his hand on Holloway's face, and another Xavier player push him away. I actually feel pretty bad for the X guys. They didn't instigate any of the touching and were winning the game. The X player that will probably get the worst is the guy who shoved Gates when he was touching Holloway at the beginning, which sucks because thats what you do if someone puts their hands on your teammate like that.
When it starts, he throws a punch. Right when Gates is pushed by the other X player (#5). Look later down in the corner with I believe Gates. He and Gates throw punches. He was going after anyone and everyone.
Actually, for the 2nd one in the corner, I thought it was Holloway, but it was #5 am 10 throwing punches for X. Holloway was dragged away. It is 10 that is going after everyone. Holloway does try to get back into it later, but is kept away. Sure looks, though, that Holloway started it and the other X player that came over made it worse. To me, X players deserve much derision for what they had done here, as well.
I think No. 13 (Mbodj?) will get the biggest punishment for the curb stomp to Frease. That's a kill shot.
If anyone has time, I would recommend watching Mick Cronin's press conference:
http://www.gobearcats.com/allaccess/?media=273285
I think you are getting tu mixed up with Lyons. Lyons is the X player that throws tons of punches and keeps going after players. his post game comments were terrible as well
Quote from: injuryBug on December 10, 2011, 03:33:35 PM
I think you are getting tu mixed up with Lyons. Lyons is the X player that throws tons of punches and keeps going after players. his post game comments were terrible as well
Correct, in part. I had already corrected it in my 2nd post in this thread. It was Wells that I saw throw a punch in the corner and assumed it was Holloway. Wells is #5. Lyons is the one going after anyone. He is also the one who pushed Gates at the start of this. He deserves a major suspension.
yancy and cincy better lawyer-up. they might as well put the stripes back on the uniforms. would love to see the gadjeation rate of the b-ball team. this opens up all kinds of cans of worms. sandusky thanks them for getting him off the front page for a while
Quote from: TrueBlueAndGold on December 10, 2011, 02:12:07 PM
Cheikh Mbodj stomped on Frease after Frease was on the ground from Gates' punch. He'll be getting a big suspension too.
detroit lions scout saw it. they need a back-up for donkeykong su
Quote from: TrueBlueAndGold on December 10, 2011, 03:33:27 PM
If anyone has time, I would recommend watching Mick Cronin's press conference:
http://www.gobearcats.com/allaccess/?media=273285
Wow. Agreed. That was extremely genuine.
I have a lot of no longer have any respect for Mick Cronin... he's knows the legacy at Cincy, and he's been doing his damnedest but unfortunately he's doing nothing to change it. I would be am surprised at anything less than Cronin kicking didn't kick Gates off the team. That's going to be a tough decision for Cronin to make, but I think that he'll make the call look back on in ten years when his legacy is how many of his former players bombed out after college and ended up in jail.
Unfortunately, Cronin doesn't need to make a decision with Mbodj... the Hamilton County DA will make that for him... what really sucks for him is that his student visa could now be in jeopardy (assuming stomping is felony battery).
If Guyn surives.... my guess is that he and Tu are should have been suspended 10-15 game.
MONDAY MORNING EDIT.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on December 10, 2011, 03:46:28 PM
Wow. Agreed. That was extremely genuine.
wow! i'm guessing huggins would have handled it differently
Quote from: TrueBlueAndGold on December 10, 2011, 03:33:27 PM
If anyone has time, I would recommend watching Mick Cronin's press conference:
http://www.gobearcats.com/allaccess/?media=273285
I didn't know much about Cronin, but that speech/comments were awesome and Buzz-like. Well worth the 16 minutes.
Yates has had previous issues throughout his tenure, has been suspended before and based upon what Cronin said, I presume Yates just played his last game for Cincy.
Soes anyone know what the X players said in their post games or have a link to it? One of the questions to Cronin said something about Tu and someone else being happy about the fight or something. I kinda want to see what they said.
Quote from: nyg on December 10, 2011, 03:57:41 PM
I didn't know much about Cronin, but that speech/comments were awesome and Buzz-like. Well worth the 16 minutes.
Yates has had previous issues throughout his tenure, has been suspended before and based upon what Cronin said, I presume Yates just played his last game for Cincy.
totally agree-i felt sorry for coach but he's got the right attitude-school-education-person. he's asking the refs to get it under control and they want to T him up and telling him to sit down
Thanks for the link on Cronin's interview. It was 16 minutes long, but every minute worth listening to. I, as well, am impressed with his actions, words and demeanor. I was bothered by the comments about the officials. If he is asking them to get the game under control, stop the talking to the Cincy bench ... and they did nothing, those officials need to be disciplined as well.
You have to wonder what Mack was doing. I would like to hear his Press Conference.
I had forgotten lat years incident. That was bad alone. Does X start to see a tarnished reputation? I think they might.
Quote from: lawwarrior12 on December 10, 2011, 03:58:29 PM
Soes anyone know what the X players said in their post games or have a link to it? One of the questions to Cronin said something about Tu and someone else being happy about the fight or something. I kinda want to see what they said.
http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/xavi-m-baskbl-body.html
Disgusting. Classless.
they should show that post-game talk to every player before they play their next game-wake up!!
Quote from: lawwarrior12 on December 10, 2011, 03:58:29 PM
Soes anyone know what the X players said in their post games or have a link to it? One of the questions to Cronin said something about Tu and someone else being happy about the fight or something. I kinda want to see what they said.
Just saw it on ESPN. Tu Holloway said his team was made up of "gangsters" and not "thugs" like Cincinatti. Forget whether it was him or Lyons but one of them said they were the grown men in this situation (which obviously was not the case). Not a very good press conference by either of them, and I am personally sick of hearing how good Xavier and Tu Holloway are.
Quote from: MUMac on December 10, 2011, 04:02:48 PM
Thanks for the link on Cronin's interview. It was 16 minutes long, but every minute worth listening to. I, as well, am impressed with his actions, words and demeanor. I was bothered by the comments about the officials. If he is asking them to get the game under control, stop the talking to the Cincy bench ... and they did nothing, those officials need to be disciplined as well.
You have to wonder what Mack was doing. I would like to hear his Press Conference.
I had forgotten lat years incident. That was bad alone. Does X start to see a tarnished reputation? I think they might.
Agreed. The referees were almost at fault as much as the players.
Watching the X press conference was really unbelievable though. I think the press conference will tarnish their reputation more than the fight did.
Quote from: TrueBlueAndGold on December 10, 2011, 04:05:06 PM
Agreed. The referees were almost at fault as much as the players.
Watching the X press conference was really unbelievable though. I think the press conference will tarnish their reputation more than the fight did.
Agreed. And this shows just how much these players let things get to them, not the makings of a championship squad.
Quote from: TrueBlueAndGold on December 10, 2011, 04:03:26 PM
http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/xavi-m-baskbl-body.html
Disgusting. Classless.
No kidding. I don't know why Mack would even let them talk. Tu sounded like a clown.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on December 10, 2011, 04:10:39 PM
No kidding. I don't know why Mack would even let them talk. Tu sounded like a clown.
I'm amazed the X sports information director let them do this.
if i were xavier, i would be embarrassed by that press conference. let's see how tough they are minus some bodies
Quote from: MUMac on December 10, 2011, 03:17:22 PM
When it starts, he throws a punch. Right when Gates is pushed by the other X player (#5). Look later down in the corner with I believe Gates. He and Gates throw punches. He was going after anyone and everyone.
Actually, for the 2nd one in the corner, I thought it was Holloway, but it was #5 am 10 throwing punches for X. Holloway was dragged away. It is 10 that is going after everyone. Holloway does try to get back into it later, but is kept away. Sure looks, though, that Holloway started it and the other X player that came over made it worse. To me, X players deserve much derision for what they had done here, as well.
Upon further review, you're right about 5 & 10 in the corner throwing punches. Going pretty nuts over there.
--
Also I want to echo what everyone else is saying about Cronin. But I have to say that to some small extent, his comments about representing an institution of higher learning is an interesting point. Its nice that he has such a respect for representing a university, and the responsibilities that come with that, etc. But if this fight really does represent a lack of respect for that representation, it seems that Cronin is pissing in the wind right now. The players are a reflection of the institutions themselves, and not just Cincinnati, but the NCAA and all its member institutions regarding their own behavior toward college sports. The reason people discuss pay-to-play is because of the primacy universities give athletic revenue compared to all other facets of operation. The lack of moral substance of the NCAA is reflected time and time again in their decisions, be they regarding players or business deals. The NCAA straight up manipulates and uses (in a negative sense) the academic accomplishments that Cronin reveres to make record profits by calling what has become professional athletics amateur. It profits from this fight, and all the other newsworthy events like it. The NCAA creates the lack of respect for its member institutions and their academic purpose - the players just reflect it.
Xavier had a legit shot at rifling through the rest of the regular season + A10 tourney and have a really high seed in the Dance. If suspensions hamstring this squad they might really have ruined a shot at having a huge season.
Holloway talks of gangsters and thugs. He is simply a punk. Nothing more. A punk. Disgusting interview. Maybe Mack is the one to blame here, as well. Is he trying to be the new Thuggins in Cincinnati?
I really believe Xavier is going to be found to be the instigator. Not condoning Gates, that was disgusting and the stomping was as well. But, Lyons is being interviewed, and he was one of the ones who started it and threw more punches than anyone, except for Wells from X.
Sure seemed like poor little punk Holloway was upset with words and talked trash all game.
This interview was really poor. Xavier should have prepped them better before they made it to the press. That was embarrassing.
Quote from: MUMac on December 10, 2011, 04:17:34 PM
Holloway talks of gangsters and thugs. He is simply a punk. Nothing more. A punk. Disgusting interview. Maybe Mack is the one to blame here, as well. Is he trying to be the new Thuggins in Cincinnati?
I really believe Xavier is going to be found to be the instigator. Not condoning Gates, that was disgusting and the stomping was as well. But, Lyons is being interviewed, and he was one of the ones who started it and threw more punches than anyone, except for Wells from X.
Sure seemed like poor little punk Holloway was upset with words and talked trash all game.
This interview was really poor. Xavier should have prepped them better before they made it to the press. That was embarrassing.
He's still mad Jimmy Butler held him to 5 and bounced him out of the first round last year!
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on December 10, 2011, 04:10:39 PM
No kidding. I don't know why Mack would even let them talk. Tu sounded like a clown.
That press conference was pure comedy. Made Xavier look terrible.
I can't access the press conference - it says it hasn't been archived. Perhaps X was smart and took it down?
Quote from: PE8983 on December 10, 2011, 04:23:22 PM
I can't access the press conference - it says it hasn't been archived. Perhaps X was smart and took it down?
You have to click on the "Top Videos" link towards the top and then there is a link on the left hand side for the post game press conference.
Quote from: nyg on December 10, 2011, 03:57:41 PM
I didn't know much about Cronin, but that speech/comments were awesome and Buzz-like. Well worth the 16 minutes.
Forget coaching basketball. He should be the freaking President of the NCAA.
I watched Holloway's opening remarks and quit right there. Absolutely shameful. Talking about the "gangsters" and "grown men" on his bench tells me all I need to know about Tu Holloway. If one of our guys behaved like this I'd happily see him dismissed from the team.
Hats off to Mick Cronin. Seems Cincinnati will learn from this. Wish I could say the same about X.
Quote from: IAmMarquette on December 10, 2011, 05:06:25 PM
I watched Holloway's opening remarks and quit right there. Absolutely shameful. Talking about the "gangsters" and "grown men" on his bench tells me all I need to know about Tu Holloway. If one of our guys behaved like this I'd happily see him dismissed from the team.
Hats off to Mick Cronin. Seems Cincinnati will learn from this. Wish I could say the same about X.
Some of MU's players were recently involved in some "incidents" and the response from most fans was to blame/attack the victim (in both the sexual assault and the Blue "fight"). It's easy to want to see guys kicked off of other teams. This "thug culture" is rampant in certain college sports. Root for the team in general, but these guys are not role models (or even good people in many cases) by any stretch of the imagination.
But Cronin knocked that presser out of the park. The Xavier coach is an enabler.
Quote from: IAmMarquette on December 10, 2011, 05:06:25 PM
I watched Holloway's opening remarks and quit right there. Absolutely shameful. Talking about the "gangsters" and "grown men" on his bench tells me all I need to know about Tu Holloway. If one of our guys behaved like this I'd happily see him dismissed from the team.
Hats off to Mick Cronin. Seems Cincinnati will learn from this. Wish I could say the same about X.
I got through about 4 minutes. All I can say is, I am a new least favorite team in college basketball. With that attitude, I can only wonder what news stories we will be reading about those two guys 5-10 years from now? I would feel sorry for their so-called "toughness" which, ironically, is just the height of immaturity, but that would probably be "disrespecting" them.
Quote from: godzilla on December 10, 2011, 05:21:11 PM
Some of MU's players were recently involved in some "incidents" and the response from most fans was to blame/attack the victim (in both the sexual assault and the Blue "fight"). It's easy to want to see guys kicked off of other teams. This "thug culture" is rampant in certain college sports. Root for the team in general, but these guys are not role models (or even good people in many cases) by any stretch of the imagination.
But Cronin knocked that presser out of the park. The Xavier coach is an enabler.
What the hell is this post? Are you the SID for Xavier? ::) Most? yeah, nice sweeping generalization to give yourself sainthood. We have video here, no video of the "incidents" you mention. We have seen both sides here, only one side of the "incidents" you mention.
Your post was as ignorantly stated as the Xavier PC was.
My guess is Xavier never sees the BE after this as long as Cincinnati remains in the conference.
Quote from: IAmMarquette on December 10, 2011, 05:06:25 PM
I watched Holloway's opening remarks and quit right there. Absolutely shameful. Talking about the "gangsters" and "grown men" on his bench tells me all I need to know about Tu Holloway. If one of our guys behaved like this I'd happily see him dismissed from the team.
Hats off to Mick Cronin. Seems Cincinnati will learn from this. Wish I could say the same about X.
I agree he was absolutely shameful. I also, I remember Holloway's press conference after the NCAA tourney game in March. I think he was crying then. :'(
Holloway should be suspended a number of games and perhaps kicked off the team altogether. He seemed to have been a main instigator in this whole incident, from what I could see.
I like Mick. He has his head on straight. He suspended Gates last year on some disciplinary issues and I watched a bit of a press conference at the time about that. It will be interesting to see what disciplinary measures happen now with Gates and some other Cincy players.
Quote from: downtown85 on December 10, 2011, 06:02:31 PM
Holloway should be suspended a number of games and perhaps kicked off the team altogether. He seemed to have been a main instigator in this whole incident, from what I could see.
Kicked off the team? Cmon...he just got in someone's face. Not saying he shouldn't be suspended a game or two, but he didn't throw the punch or push the guy.
Quote from: downtown85 on December 10, 2011, 06:02:31 PM
I agree he was absolutely shameful. I also, I remember Holloway's press conference after the NCAA tourney game in March. I think he was crying then. :'(
Holloway should be suspended a number of games and perhaps kicked off the team altogether. He seemed to have been a main instigator in this whole incident, from what I could see.
I like Mick. He has his head on straight. He suspended Gates last year on some disciplinary issues and I watched a bit of a press conference at the time about that. It will be interesting to see what disciplinary measures happen now with Gates and some other Cincy players.
If you see the replay which picks up the play as the teams are going down the court, you see Holloway chirping at the Cincy bench. As soon as the play is over, Holloway turns and starts chirping towards Gates. Listening to Cronin, that action had been going on most of the game. I saw a clip of right before halftime and some Cincy players had to be restrained from going after Holloway, who was chirping at them then.
I think, if the A10 or Xavier investigates, they will find that Holloway was likely the instigator all night. I certainly do not have any positive feelings about him after his actions today - on and off the court.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 10, 2011, 06:07:18 PM
Kicked off the team? Cmon...he just got in someone's face. Not saying he shouldn't be suspended a game or two, but he didn't throw the punch or push the guy.
Actually, it sure looks as though Holloway threw a punch when Lyons pushed Gates. Further, if you followed the game, he was doing more than just getting in someone's face. An incident happened at halftime and he was the one involved. In this play, if you watch it all the way through, he comes down the court yelling at the Cincy bench. When the basket is made, he turns to confront Gates.
His actions on the court were worthy of a suspension. The PC was an embarrassment in and of itself. A game or two? C'mon back at ya.
What you described seems worth of a game or two...not kicked off the team.
Believe it was Lyons involved with the half time trash talking. I think Lyons and Holloway will get at least 2 games. Think gates will be kicked off the team. Anyone else who threw a punch will probably get a game.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 10, 2011, 06:14:18 PM
What you described seems worth of a game or two...not kicked off the team.
I never said kicked off the team. I do not believe a game or two is appropriate either. He and Lyons were the instigators. Lyons deserves more than Holloway, but Holloway deserves more than a game or two. That was an embarrassing display he put on out there - again, on and off the court. The comments after almost give rise to premeditation. At the least, it demonstrates his actions were intentional. That kind of crap has absolutely no business on a college basketball court.
I suspect Cincinnati coaches will shed light on the kind of discussions he was having with their bench. Add to that the punch he threw, post game comments ... A game or two is a slap on the wrist. You can't be serious.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on December 10, 2011, 06:19:20 PM
Believe it was Lyons involved with the half time trash talking. I think Lyons and Holloway will get at least 2 games. Think gates will be kicked off the team. Anyone else who threw a punch will probably get a game.
Lyons deserves 5, maybe more IMHO. He and Wells were throwing punch after punch on the baseline. Wells deserves 2-3. Holloway deserves 3-5. He threw a punch, though it did not appear to connect as Lyons already pushed Gates. His actions throughout the game were detestable. His comments after an embarrassment. I would go higher, but he did not appear to have any prior problems.
Gates may be kicked off the team. I am guessing they start with 10 games and decide based upon his actions. The part that factors into his penalty is the suspension last year. Is he more a problem than his worth? #13 for Cincy also needs to be suspended for a long period of time.
I would also look into Mack and his program. This is the 2nd consecutive year that Xavier instigated something against Cincy.
Lastly, the officials deserve some punishment, if Cronin's comments are accurate.
I'll wait to see what Cronin actually does in terms of punishment before I give him any credit.
He caved last year when it came to Yancy Gates being a renegade in his own program so it won't shock me to see him cave after this incident as well.
Kilpatrick started it midweek with the public dressing down of Holloway. I don't live in Milwaukee but I certainly hope our players aren't as careless when they are on the radio.
Lyons escalated it during the game. Then, with his wild swinging arms mid-brawl. Gates and Mbodji went to another level.
Disgrace.
I didn't see the Holloway punch. Not saying it wasn't there, I just didn't see it.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 10, 2011, 06:42:47 PM
I didn't see the Holloway punch. Not saying it wasn't there, I just didn't see it.
Watch his left hand when Lyons pushes Gunn to the ground (I inadvertently thought that Gates was involved, but it was Gunn). Going for the head, as well. He did not connect, because Lyons pushed Gunn away from him. The official then pulls him away. He starts walking away and later makes a move back towards the melee when an Assistant Coach pulls him towards their bench.
Since it was Gunn who was involved initially and not Gates, that to me, makes Gates actions worse and would increase any suspension he would receive.
The thing I find odd is that the official box only has one technical for the game.
It's about time the NCAA cracks down on some of these players that think they're more important than the University. Ya, Cincy has been a program full of thugs, even when Huggins
was there. I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL
THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS
despicable actions I couldn't believe as I watched the game.. I am sure Buzz has addressed the team about this type of attitude but don't think we have any thugsters on the squad
Quote from: Earl Tatum on December 10, 2011, 07:19:19 PM
It's about time the NCAA cracks down on some of these players that think they're more important than the University. Ya, Cincy has been a program full of thugs, even when Huggins
was there. I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL
THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS
Let's be careful not to make too many assumptions now. Tu Holloway for instance is not an inner city kid. He's from Nassau County.
This whole episode is really sad.
1. The kid the kicks Frease while on the ground is as bad as Gates.
2. The guy the runs from out of nowhere to attack the X player by himself also needs to miss extended time.
This is going to put Cinci in quite the hole to kick off the BEAST season.
Quote from: Earl Tatum on December 10, 2011, 07:19:19 PM
It's about time the NCAA cracks down on some of these players that think they're more important than the University. Ya, Cincy has been a program full of thugs, even when Huggins
was there. I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL
THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS
Do you like hockey?
If yes, what do you say when they square off for fist fights every other game? Are they "THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL?" Or are they just "scrappy, gritty guys?" Choose wisely.
Quote from: Jamailman on December 10, 2011, 07:53:00 PM
Do you like hockey?
If yes, what do you say when they square off for fist fights every other game? Are they "THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL?" Or are they just "scrappy, gritty guys?" Choose wisely.
They're really well-spoken athletes.
Quote from: Jamailman on December 10, 2011, 07:53:00 PM
Do you like hockey?
If yes, what do you say when they square off for fist fights every other game? Are they "THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL?" Or are they just "scrappy, gritty guys?" Choose wisely.
? Are you comparing the NHL to College Basketball? Is that your point? A strange comparison, if you ask me.
Quote from: MUMac on December 10, 2011, 08:36:03 PM
? Are you comparing the NHL to College Basketball? Is that your point? A strange comparison, if you ask me.
No, I'm questioning where this guy is coming from with the statement "I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS." A fight once every three to five years in basketball gets overblown and everyone calls them thugs. Hockey breaks out into fights every other game and people just say it's "boys being boys in the heat of battle." I just love the double standard.
It sucks that this happened, and I watched the whole thing unfold live. Gates deserves to be kicked off the teams and several people deserve to be suspended. Just wondering where the sweeping, ignorant statement "I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS" comes from.
Thug life
Quote from: Jamailman on December 10, 2011, 08:47:13 PM
No, I'm questioning where this guy is coming from with the statement "I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS." A fight once every three to five years in basketball gets overblown and everyone calls them thugs. Hockey breaks out into fights every other game and people just say it's "boys being boys in the heat of battle." I just love the double standard.
It sucks that this happened, and I watched the whole thing unfold live. Gates deserves to be kicked off the teams and several people deserve to be suspended. Just wondering where the sweeping, ignorant statement "I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS" comes from.
I understand this point. The comparison to the NHL though, where they are called goons, was probably not the best analogy. This post makes much more sense to me.
Quote from: Earl Tatum on December 10, 2011, 07:19:19 PM
It's about time the NCAA cracks down on some of these players that think they're more important than the University. Ya, Cincy has been a program full of thugs, even when Huggins
was there. I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL
THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS
In my opinion this is worse than Tu Holloway talking trash in a game he is winning and instigating a fight. Chill out with the racial references, MU nation. It doesn't look good.
Quote from: sixstrings03 on December 10, 2011, 09:37:06 PM
In my opinion this is worse than Tu Holloway talking trash in a game he is winning and instigating a fight. Chill out with the racial references, MU nation. It doesn't look good.
Exactly my point. Terrible post from Tatum.
Quote from: Jamailman on December 10, 2011, 08:47:13 PM
No, I'm questioning where this guy is coming from with the statement "I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS." A fight once every three to five years in basketball gets overblown and everyone calls them thugs. Hockey breaks out into fights every other game and people just say it's "boys being boys in the heat of battle." I just love the double standard.
It sucks that this happened, and I watched the whole thing unfold live. Gates deserves to be kicked off the teams and several people deserve to be suspended. Just wondering where the sweeping, ignorant statement "I'M SICK OF WATCHING THESE TRASH TALKING MOSTLY INNER CITY BASKETBALL THUGS WHO THINK THEY ARE SO COOL. THEY ARE PUNKS" comes from.
I think the "thugs" comment comes from the press conference as much as the fight itself. When players call themselves "gangsters," it's pretty easy to assume that they are, indeed, thugs.
Quote from: godzilla on December 10, 2011, 09:44:37 PM
I think the "thugs" comment comes from the press conference as much as the fight itself. When players call themselves "gangsters," it's pretty easy to assume that they are, indeed, thugs.
I agree about the thugs and read it that way intially. The inner city comment is worthy of the derision, as Jamailman pointed out.
Quote from: godzilla on December 10, 2011, 09:44:37 PM
I think the "thugs" comment comes from the press conference as much as the fight itself. When players call themselves "gangsters," it's pretty easy to assume that they are, indeed, thugs.
It's a ridiculous argument to tie this thing to "urban culture" (which is what I'm picking up from your post). The problem is they fought. Period.
How many black players in NCAA basketball haven't behaved like this? Even these players have only acted this way in one game. The suspensions and reactions should be based on this event.
Using this to attack a culture you don't identify with and broad brush people based on where they are from & what their experiences are (inner city) makes me really hope you aren't an MU alum. I would sleep better at night having one of our players act like Tu did today than know that my fellow alums can't draw a distinction like this.
Quote from: sixstrings03 on December 10, 2011, 09:50:19 PM
It's a ridiculous argument to tie this thing to "urban culture" (which is what I'm picking up from your post). The problem is they fought. Period.
How many black players in NCAA basketball haven't behaved like this? Even these players have only acted this way in one game. The suspensions and reactions should be based on this event.
Using this to attack a culture you don't identify with and broad brush people based on where they are from & what their experiences are (inner city) makes me really hope you aren't an MU alum. I would sleep better at night having one of our players act like Tu did today than know that my fellow alums can't draw a distinction like this.
Did you watch the Xavier players press conference. Tu referred to the team as "gangsters." They are embracing that culture (regardless of where they're from) and it's too bad if you don't want them called out for it.
And i could care less if they're from the inner city or not. They were verbally championing the "thug culture" in their statements. And it was shameful for the Xavier coach to try and brush off their remarks.
Yeah and my kids flash fake gang signs as jokes. I suppose they are embracing the "thug culture" as well. Give it a rest.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 10, 2011, 10:03:11 PM
Yeah and my kids flash fake gang signs as jokes. I suppose they are embracing the "thug culture" as well. Give it a rest.
Tu is the one who used "thug" in his PC. He said that X were gangsters and Cincy were thugs. Calling someone out for using that is silly. I do, though, agree with the criticism of the "inner city" reference.
Quote from: godzilla on December 10, 2011, 09:59:02 PM
Did you watch the Xavier players press conference. Tu referred to the team as "gangsters." They are embracing that culture (regardless of where they're from) and it's too bad if you don't want them called out for it.
And i could care less if they're from the inner city or not. They were verbally championing the "thug culture" in their statements. And it was shameful for the Xavier coach to try and brush off their remarks.
Just be straight with yourself. The fighting is uncalled for. Not using slang terms.
You make this argument and support the Warriors nickname?
Just because he says something in a presser after a heated game doesn't mean he "embraces" the culture. It could very well mean he simply said something stupid.
This was taken from the Scout board...
"From Cincinnati Enquirer:
"We're grown men over here," Holloway explained. "We got a whole bunch of gangsters in the locker room. Not thugs, but tough guys on the court."
Holloway readily admitted to taunting the UC bench, coaches and players, as the clock wound down. "I talked to that whole staff. I said this is my city. I'm cut from a different cloth. None of them guys on their team is like me. I let the whole staff know none of them was like me," he said.
If you watch Holloway play, that's evident. No one is like him. He is often the best player on the floor. He doesn't need to prove a thing. "Isn't the play enough?" I asked Holloway, in a hallway near the Xavier locker room, after the press conference.
"That's what the Crosstown Shootout is about," he said. "Guys getting ejected, guys throwing elbows."
I thought it was about a basketball game.
"You don't let people disrespect you. That's what I'm about. I don't regret anything that happened," said Holloway"
Yeah, this is just like kids flashing gang signs as jokes...
You know, I wonder how people on this board ever graduated from MU with the crappy reading comprehension they have.
I didn't say Tu didn't say a dumb thing. I didn't say he didn't do a dumb thing. What I am saying is that these comments to me don't show that he embraces the "thug culture." If you could show me something else from his past that indicates a pattern of behavior, then I would be more likely to agree with you. Otherwise it sounds more like a guy who shot off his mouth at a press conference.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 10, 2011, 10:11:36 PM
You know, I wonder how people on this board ever graduated from MU with the crappy reading comprehension they have.
I didn't say Tu didn't say a dumb thing. I didn't say he didn't do a dumb thing. What I am saying is that these comments to me don't show that he embraces the "thug culture." If you could show me something else from his past that indicates a pattern of behavior, then I would be more likely to agree with you. Otherwise it sounds more like a guy who shot off his mouth at a press conference.
+1
Good column from Bobby Lewis...
http://www.newson6.com/story/16298944/gangsters-vs-thugs
Gangsters vs. Thugs
Posted: Dec 10, 2011 9:17 PM CST
Updated: Dec 10, 2011 9:18 PM CST
Bobby Lewis, News On 6 - bio | email
ORU plays Xavier in a few days and the Golden Eagles had better take their boxing gloves to the game! Those dudes threw down with Cincinnati today.
I'm sure you've seen it. If not, here it is.
Worst part of it, is what a SENIOR leader said for Xavier.
TU Holloway: "We're grown men out there ... We've got a whole bunch of gangsters in that locker room. Not thugs, but tough guys out on the court."
Really? Tough guys? You have NO IDEA what tough is.
Here's what you did, TU. You brought embarrassment to yourself, your family, your school, your team and the sport of basketball. You and your 'gangster' teammates acted like a bunch of hoodlums. You may not like to call yourselves thugs, but that's EXACTLY what you are. Oh, and since when is being labeled as a gangster better than being called a thug?
What you guys are is a joke. When is it ever appropriate to do what you did? The answer is never. If you did that ANYWHERE else besides a basketball court (or other sports forum), you would be THROWN IN JAIL... kind of like a gangster or thug would be.
You and a few other bully teammates defended your actions, saying things like 'we won't let anyone punch us and not punch back'. HELLO! YOU instigated the entire thing. You're up 20+ points with NINE SECONDS LEFT... AT HOME!!! What are you doing getting up in the opponent's face, taunting him and staring down the Cincy bench? Did you WANT to fight?
What justifies this? Because you're ranked #8 in the nation? Because you're playing in a rivalry game?
Wake up, gangster.
Cincy isn't blameless in this. The Bearcats are subject to the same ridicule. The difference is, Holloway ran his mouth. Show some class, gangster.
If you wanted to get suspended, mission accomplished. You may be gone for weeks. If I was the coach, I'd kick your ungrateful, selfish, arrogant gangster butt off my team in a heartbeat.
Give me your jersey. Turn in your jock. Get out of my locker room.
We don't need gangsters like you in any arena.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 10, 2011, 10:11:36 PM
You know, I wonder how people on this board ever graduated from MU with the crappy reading comprehension they have.
I didn't say Tu didn't say a dumb thing. I didn't say he didn't do a dumb thing. What I am saying is that these comments to me don't show that he embraces the "thug culture." If you could show me something else from his past that indicates a pattern of behavior, then I would be more likely to agree with you. Otherwise it sounds more like a guy who shot off his mouth at a press conference.
Taking pomposity out of it, if you actually read and comprehended the original comment - which is where the "thugs" commentary started in this thread, he never mentioned Tu. Never mentioned Xavier. Solely about Cincinnati. All about Cincinnati's "thugs". Probably more playing on the "thuggins" wordsmith of the past. Maybe it came to the posters mind or became more acceptable, due to the use of the word by Tu. The inclusion of "inner city", IMHO, should not have been made.
Back to reading comprehension now, so I can try make the some MU grads proud of me.
Claiming this incident didn't have racial undertones is PC rum amok. Not only do you have an X player talking about "gangstas" you have one of the few white players in the incident leaving the floor covered in blood. You can pretend it's just kids being kids, but these are grown men. If the racial make up of these individuals were reversed, we'd have a national day of reflection for chrissakes. This was an ugly, ugly incident that reflects very poorly on African American players on both sides. To suggest otherwise is just plain stupid.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on December 10, 2011, 03:46:28 PM
Wow. Agreed. That was extremely genuine.
Cronin's press conference was pretty good. Now, I'll be interested to see if he walks the walk. I don't see any way he can let Gates put on a uniform again this year, if ever. He should come out today and say Gates is done.
X press conference on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gpS7PSYWcM
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 10, 2011, 10:11:36 PM
You know, I wonder how people on this board ever graduated from MU with the crappy reading comprehension they have.
I didn't say Tu didn't say a dumb thing. I didn't say he didn't do a dumb thing. What I am saying is that these comments to me don't show that he embraces the "thug culture." If you could show me something else from his past that indicates a pattern of behavior, then I would be more likely to agree with you. Otherwise it sounds more like a guy who shot off his mouth at a press conference.
On the topic of "thug culture" and embracing it, the key question for anyone is to learn a bit about where Mark Lyons was born and raised.
During his post game comments he made clear that "where I'm from" when "people raise their hands" you don't let them get away with it. In essence, when the fight is brought to you then you fight back.
Lyons was born in Schenectady, NY (which is outside Albany, NY). He was raised at Brewster Acadamy in New Hampshire (which is outside the middle of nowhere).
Draw your own conclusions.
The X AD should be fired for letting those guys get near a mic that soon after that intense of a situation. They were fools for talking like that, but they never should have been given the chance.
Quote from: nyg on December 10, 2011, 03:57:41 PM
I didn't know much about Cronin, but that speech/comments were awesome and Buzz-like. Well worth the 16 minutes.
Yates has had previous issues throughout his tenure, has been suspended before and based upon what Cronin said, I presume Yates just played his last game for Cincy.
My thoughts as well. Impressed by Cronin's post game statements. That was an example, at least at that moment, of someone taking responsibility for his program. He may not be like that other times, but that particular press conference was impressive. Both programs clearly have some players with some issues. Maybe this rivalry needs to be suspended for a few years. This is not the first brawl in the series of late.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on December 11, 2011, 12:20:50 PM
Maybe this rivalry needs to be suspended for a few years.
My thoughts exactly. Four years. Gets all the current players out of their respective programs.
Cincinnati just announced that Gates, Ellis and Mbodj will be suspended for 6 games, and Guyn will be suspended for one.
Xavier hasn't announced anything yet.
Pretty weak, IMO.
Quote from: tower912 on December 11, 2011, 11:47:07 AM
The X AD should be fired for letting those guys get near a mic that soon after that intense of a situation. They were fools for talking like that, but they never should have been given the chance.
Wow, co-sign. One thing to let them go up there, another leap of stupidity to not jump in and stop that train-wreck from pegging the embarrass-o-meter within 20 seconds.
That presser should be shown at AD School, "What not to let your kids say in front of a mic 101"
Quote from: TrueBlueAndGold on December 11, 2011, 12:55:43 PM
Cincinnati just announced that Gates, Ellis and Mbodj will be suspended for 6 games, and Guyn will be suspended for one.
Xavier hasn't announced anything yet.
Pretty weak, IMO.
I would agree that is pretty weak. They are missing Wright St, Radford, Arkansas Pine-Bluff, Chicago St, Oklahoma and Pitt. Although when you consider that 6 games is 20% of the season it doesn't seem as bad.
Quote from: spartan3186 on December 11, 2011, 01:06:33 PM
I would agree that is pretty weak. They are missing Wright St, Radford, Arkansas Pine-Bluff, Chicago St, Oklahoma and Pitt. Although when you consider that 6 games is 20% of the season it doesn't seem as bad.
Lagarrette Blount was suspended for the season for this: (Obviously different sport, but a close comparison to a fight in recent years)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_3299v-A1o
I'm not sure how Gates and Mbodj deserved less of a penalty than Blount did.
Super weak based on cronin's words yesterday. Wonder if the big east can apply their own suspension from league games as they see fit.
Just saw the article. Big East supports the punishment. I guess that'll be all.
Quote from: TrueBlueAndGold on December 11, 2011, 12:55:43 PM
Cincinnati just announced that Gates, Ellis and Mbodj will be suspended for 6 games, and Guyn will be suspended for one.
Xavier hasn't announced anything yet.
Pretty weak, IMO.
What a joke. I have no respect for that institution. The guy committed a battery on national television and UC suspends him for six games. BS. If I'm the DA in Cincy, I'm going after him.
After Cronin's passionate speech, six games is a farce.
Quote from: nyg on December 11, 2011, 02:56:57 PM
After Cronin's passionate speech, six games is a farce.
Like I wrote earlier, Cronin was weak last year when Gates deserved much more. Had a feeling his actions wouldn't measure up. Was surprised when everyone was giving him such credit on minimal achievement yesterday.
Holloway deserved a game for his presser, let alone his actions starting the fight.
One game for Holloway, two for Lyons, four for wells and another player. Also pretty weak.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on December 11, 2011, 04:14:47 PM
One game for Holloway, two for Lyons, four for wells and another player. Also pretty weak.
The other player is the walk-on. What a joke by both teams.
I think Gates and Mbodj should be suspended for the season, lose the scholarship and be released from school. They are representing a learning institution. Would not let them in uniform CU uniform again. Holloway and Lyons 15 games and Wells 10. In fact it was it was Ge'
lawn Guyn of CU who pushed the X player just at the end that started this thing. What did he get, one game. Also the refs should be banned. Never heard a thing from the Xavier coach.
Must be chicken. Like Cronin's remarks. Hope he backs them up.
I think the suspensions are a little light, but I wouldn't want to see these kids get their scholarships pulled. Until the NCAA and schools begin taking the representation of an academic institution seriously, I would find it highly hypocritical to punish the kids on those grounds.
Gates was the big jerk in the whole thing: sucker punches a guy and backs out of the scrum. Goes back in where he won't get hurt and challenges more players and then punches somebody else who isn't looking. 6 games isn't enough dor actions like that.
Penalty for going to a Brewers playoff game with a friend = 3 games
Penalty for major recruiting violations by a coach = 3 games
Penalty for involvement in a major brawl = 1-6 games
Priceless
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7343412/xavier-cincinnati-issue-race-college-basketball
Race issue in the fight examined
Quote from: Earl Tatum on December 11, 2011, 10:13:32 PM
I think Gates and Mbodj should be suspended for the season, lose the scholarship and be released from school. They are representing a learning institution. Would not let them in uniform CU uniform again. Holloway and Lyons 15 games and Wells 10. In fact it was it was Ge'
lawn Guyn of CU who pushed the X player just at the end that started this thing. What did he get, one game. Also the refs should be banned. Never heard a thing from the Xavier coach.
Must be chicken. Like Cronin's remarks. Hope he backs them up.
If you think that is what started this thing, well, words cannot describe.
Maybe it was Holloway's taunting of the bench, coming down the court, getting in Guyn's face, throwing a punch at the same time Lyons comes over and takes down Guyn? Nah, all Guyn's fault. ::)
These suspensions are a joke. Holloway, Lyons and Wells should all be gone longer for X. Gates and Mbodj should be a minimum of 10 games.
Quote from: marqptm on December 11, 2011, 03:30:52 PM
Holloway deserved a game for his presser, let alone his actions starting the fight.
Lyons and Holloway did. No remorse. Couple of kids think they are tough. Lyons mentioned "Where we come from" (Upstate New York, yeah real tough) and all that garbage. Tu isn't a gangster. He's from Long Island... East of the city.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/ohio-prosecutor-mulls-charges-after-college-basketball-game-2025926.html
Maybe not over yet....
Quote from: nyg on December 12, 2011, 09:51:36 AM
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/ohio-prosecutor-mulls-charges-after-college-basketball-game-2025926.html
Maybe not over yet....
Grandstanding by a person with higher ambitions?
I do not care for the involvement of a prosecutor in situations like this. Is he going to go after all bar fights now as well?
Quote from: MUMac on December 12, 2011, 09:58:39 AM
Grandstanding by a person with higher ambitions?
I do not care for the involvement of a prosecutor in situations like this. Is he going to go after all bar fights now as well?
I'm all for it if it is used as a lever to get stiffer suspensions against the players. These are an absolute joke, needs to line up much more with the Artest melee than a slap on the wrist.
Quote from: MUMac on December 12, 2011, 09:58:39 AM
Grandstanding by a person with higher ambitions?
I do not care for the involvement of a prosecutor in situations like this. Is he going to go after all bar fights now as well?
I would think he would if there was HD video of the bar fight available from multiple angles...
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on December 12, 2011, 12:51:28 PM
I would think he would if there was HD video of the bar fight available from multiple angles...
I would expect a prosecuter in Cincinnati would have more pressing issues to deal with than than a bar fight or a basketball brawl. He is inserting himself here for publicity. Nothing more.
I am not a fan of the authorities inserting themselves into an area that police's itself. You may disagree with the punishment, but you could make that argument anywhere.
Emotion based, some may want involvement like this. I don't and think it would set a terrible precedent and become a slippery slope.
Quote from: MUMac on December 12, 2011, 12:55:22 PM
I would expect a prosecuter in Cincinnati would have more pressing issues to deal with than than a bar fight or a basketball brawl. He is inserting himself here for publicity. Nothing more.
I am not a fan of the authorities inserting themselves into an area that police's itself. You may disagree with the punishment, but you could make that argument anywhere.
Emotion based, some may want involvement like this. I don't and think it would set a terrible precedent and become a slippery slope.
Here is why the DA should potentially get involved. This is a prime candidate for application of the broken window theory. This is a very visible event, swift, stern reaction or not, it will be noticed and potentially impact future behavior. Whether you believe in the theory or not it is at least a non-emotional justification for the DA getting involved.
Having said that I suspect you are right, the DA is getting involved from a publicity standpoint.
Quote from: MUMac on December 12, 2011, 12:55:22 PM
I would expect a prosecuter in Cincinnati would have more pressing issues to deal with than than a bar fight or a basketball brawl. He is inserting himself here for publicity. Nothing more.
I am not a fan of the authorities inserting themselves into an area that police's itself. You may disagree with the punishment, but you could make that argument anywhere.
Emotion based, some may want involvement like this. I don't and think it would set a terrible precedent and become a slippery slope.
I don't think he should either, but due to the very visible and public nature of the case, he may be having his hand forced a little bit.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on December 12, 2011, 01:08:36 PM
I don't think he should either, but due to the very visible and public nature of the case, he may be having his hand forced a little bit.
Are you kidding? Politician's don't need to have their hand forced to get involved. This is the kind of stuff they live for.
It's quite a jump to take the statement that Dieters is going "to review the incident" and surmise that he's grandstanding.
However, I do not think it's out of bounds for a DA or prosecutor to get involved if the incident itself crosses the line of "activities expected in the course of competition". Regardless of whether it happens in a back alley, a liquor store, a high school playground or in a basketball arena, the DA's responsibility is to prosecute a crime.
For anyone who wants to excuse assault and battery simply because it happened in a sporting environment, please answer this... if Tiger Woods maliciously squared his driver in the back of Phil Mickelson's head, would you recommend that the DA in such jurisdiction simply "mind his own business" because it happened during a sporting event?
Quote from: Benny B on December 12, 2011, 02:24:21 PM
For anyone who wants to excuse assault and battery simply because it happened in a sporting environment, please answer this... if Tiger Woods maliciously squared his driver in the back of Phil Mickelson's head, would you recommend that the DA in such jurisdiction simply "mind his own business" because it happened during a sporting event?
I'd recommend he mind his own business because
Tiger is finally back.
And....time for the DA to get involved.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/ncaa/12/12/Xavier.Cincinnati.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a9&eref=sihp
Quote from: MUMac on December 12, 2011, 08:05:19 AM
If you think that is what started this thing, well, words cannot describe.
Maybe it was Holloway's taunting of the bench, coming down the court, getting in Guyn's face, throwing a punch at the same time Lyons comes over and takes down Guyn? Nah, all Guyn's fault. ::)
These suspensions are a joke. Holloway, Lyons and Wells should all be gone longer for X. Gates and Mbodj should be a minimum of 10 games.
Actually, it all started mid last week when Kilpatrick of Cincinnati was on the radio publicly dressing down Tu Holloway's talent.
Right then, you knew some crap would happen during the game. That is why Holloway was so active in his taunting of the Leprechaun's bench.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 12, 2011, 06:27:06 PM
Actually, it all started mid last week when Kilpatrick of Cincinnati was on the radio publicly dressing down Tu Holloway's talent.
I grew up in Cincinnati a mile from where Xavier plays. This sort of thing is typical (actually, the rivalry has toned down over the last few years since Huggy Bear's departure until these recent incidents). The players are very familiar with each other from playing in the offseason (a big reason I think XU was able to upset #1 UC more than once was that they weren't at all physically intimidated, which I thought was one of the reasons those UC teams excelled). I'm not surprised there was jawing, always is, but I'm surprised it kept going as long as it did. Ugly day for the Queen city and one of the best rivalries in college basketball.
Quote from: Benny B on December 12, 2011, 02:24:21 PM
It's quite a jump to take the statement that Dieters is going "to review the incident" and surmise that he's grandstanding.
However, I do not think it's out of bounds for a DA or prosecutor to get involved if the incident itself crosses the line of "activities expected in the course of competition". Regardless of whether it happens in a back alley, a liquor store, a high school playground or in a basketball arena, the DA's responsibility is to prosecute a crime.
For anyone who wants to excuse assault and battery simply because it happened in a sporting environment, please answer this... if Tiger Woods maliciously squared his driver in the back of Phil Mickelson's head, would you recommend that the DA in such jurisdiction simply "mind his own business" because it happened during a sporting event?
It wasn't a statement. It was a question. Didn't you catch the "?"?
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 12, 2011, 06:27:06 PM
Actually, it all started mid last week when Kilpatrick of Cincinnati was on the radio publicly dressing down Tu Holloway's talent.
Right then, you knew some crap would happen during the game. That is why Holloway was so active in his taunting of the Leprechaun's bench.
I have heard this is the case, but I have also heard that the interviewer worded the question so that it was pretty difficult for Kilpatrick to answer. I didn't hear the interview so I don't know, and maybe I'm just misremembering hearing that or was just told wrong, but wasn't it something about asking him whether Tu would start on Cinci's team? What is a kid on Cinci supposed to say? If he says "Yes, he would start on our team," then it could come off as a lack of confidence in his starting point guard, even though that wouldn't be the case at all since Tu is "the best point guard (player?) in the country" (don't tell JFB that...). If I was in the position and asked that question, I would probably try to dodge the question and say how great Tu is but that we have a great point guard as well, blah blah. But that's not the best question to ask someone before they go into a game with a rival.
And as Cronin said in his post game press conference, grow up. If that was the case and Tu felt disrespected by the answer so much that he felt he had to jaw at the Cinci bench all game, then the kid isn't as tough as he tries to make himself sound. Nowhere near it.
Plus, with his comments in the hallway after he made a fool of himself in the press conference with this article (posted here earlier), it seems pretty clear he went into the game with the intention of starting something, regardless of what was said by a Cinci player on the radio or not:
"From Cincinnati Enquirer:
"We're grown men over here," Holloway explained. "We got a whole bunch of gangsters in the locker room. Not thugs, but tough guys on the court."
Holloway readily admitted to taunting the UC bench, coaches and players, as the clock wound down. "I talked to that whole staff. I said this is my city. I'm cut from a different cloth. None of them guys on their team is like me. I let the whole staff know none of them was like me," he said.
If you watch Holloway play, that's evident. No one is like him. He is often the best player on the floor. He doesn't need to prove a thing. "Isn't the play enough?" I asked Holloway, in a hallway near the Xavier locker room, after the press conference.
"That's what the Crosstown Shootout is about," he said. "Guys getting ejected, guys throwing elbows."I thought it was about a basketball game.
"You don't let people disrespect you. That's what I'm about. I don't regret anything that happened," said Holloway"
Complete fool, if you ask me.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 12, 2011, 06:27:06 PM
Actually, it all started mid last week when Kilpatrick of Cincinnati was on the radio publicly dressing down Tu Holloway's talent.
Right then, you knew some crap would happen during the game. That is why Holloway was so active in his taunting of the Leprechaun's bench.
So some quotes made Tu act like an idiot? A pretty weak player, then.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 12, 2011, 07:20:37 PM
I have heard this is the case, but I have also heard that the interviewer worded the question so that it was pretty difficult for Kilpatrick to answer. I didn't hear the interview so I don't know, and maybe I'm just misremembering hearing that or was just told wrong, but wasn't it something about asking him whether Tu would start on Cinci's team? What is a kid on Cinci supposed to say? If he says "Yes, he would start on our team," then it could come off as a lack of confidence in his starting point guard, even though that wouldn't be the case at all since Tu is "the best point guard (player?) in the country" (don't tell JFB that...). If I was in the position and asked that question, I would probably try to dodge the question and say how great Tu is but that we have a great point guard as well, blah blah. But that's not the best question to ask someone before they go into a game with a rival.
And as Cronin said in his post game press conference, grow up. If that was the case and Tu felt disrespected by the answer so much that he felt he had to jaw at the Cinci bench all game, then the kid isn't as tough as he tries to make himself sound. Nowhere near it.
Plus, with his comments in the hallway after he made a fool of himself in the press conference with this article (posted here earlier), it seems pretty clear he went into the game with the intention of starting something, regardless of what was said by a Cinci player on the radio or not:
"From Cincinnati Enquirer:
"We're grown men over here," Holloway explained. "We got a whole bunch of gangsters in the locker room. Not thugs, but tough guys on the court."
Holloway readily admitted to taunting the UC bench, coaches and players, as the clock wound down. "I talked to that whole staff. I said this is my city. I'm cut from a different cloth. None of them guys on their team is like me. I let the whole staff know none of them was like me," he said.
If you watch Holloway play, that's evident. No one is like him. He is often the best player on the floor. He doesn't need to prove a thing. "Isn't the play enough?" I asked Holloway, in a hallway near the Xavier locker room, after the press conference.
"That's what the Crosstown Shootout is about," he said. "Guys getting ejected, guys throwing elbows."
I thought it was about a basketball game.
"You don't let people disrespect you. That's what I'm about. I don't regret anything that happened," said Holloway"
Complete fool, if you ask me.
+1
Obviously, the fight was horrible and stupid.
Regarding Tu Holloway's comments, I don't understand why Xavier let him and Lyons go into an NCAA-style press conference after the game. Stupid. I don't remember players going to press conferences like that even after regular games. Maybe they just don't show them, but I wouldn't think that if players regularly had post-game pressers there would be film up somewhere of these things.
In any case, even if it was the norm to have post-game pressers for players, there's no way I would have let it happen as a coach/AD. Think about how fired up Buzz was after they beat Georgetown. He was a grown man and a coach, and he did not even know how to speak post-game. He chewed out McIlvaine so bad, McIlvaine is still afraid to ask him a question post-game, and its three years later. You expect a kid to handle it better, after he's just been in a fight? That's idiotic.
Finally, I just think its funny how everyone quotes the gangster comment, and no one says anything about the team motto being, 'zip 'em up.' I think 'zip 'em up' is the more problematic rhetorical phrase. Maybe its just me.
Quote from: karavotsos on December 13, 2011, 12:59:23 AM
Obviously, the fight was horrible and stupid.
Regarding Tu Holloway's comments, I don't understand why Xavier let him and Lyons go into an NCAA-style press conference after the game. Stupid. I don't remember players going to press conferences like that even after regular games. Maybe they just don't show them, but I wouldn't think that if players regularly had post-game pressers there would be film up somewhere of these things.
In any case, even if it was the norm to have post-game pressers for players, there's no way I would have let it happen as a coach/AD. Think about how fired up Buzz was after they beat Georgetown. He was a grown man and a coach, and he did not even know how to speak post-game. He chewed out McIlvaine so bad, McIlvaine is still afraid to ask him a question post-game, and its three years later. You expect a kid to handle it better, after he's just been in a fight? That's idiotic.
Finally, I just think its funny how everyone quotes the gangster comment, and no one says anything about the team motto being, 'zip 'em up.' I think 'zip 'em up' is the more problematic rhetorical phrase. Maybe its just me.
I agree with most of what you said, especially the part about "zip 'em up," but I think it's fairly commonplace for players to speak after the games, especially wins. I believe Vander and Jae spoke after the Green Bay game, for example. It might not be the best idea, but it happens. They have to learn somehow.
Where were the referees in all of this? The first time Holloway was yapping at the Cinci bench he should have been warned. The second time he should have been T'd up. That would have ended it right there. There are 3 refs and I find it hard to believe they didn't hear this nonsense before it escalated out of hand.
Ultimately you blame the participants, of course (and whatever happened to your mom telling you 1,000 times as a kid that "sticks and stones may break your bones, but names will never hurt you"? What do they say now, "You gotta keep it real"? Yes, my total understanding of hip-hop culture comes from 5 year old Chappelle show reruns). The referees could have nipped this in the bud a lot earlier. Especially when the game became one-sided, they could have doled out T's without worrying about affecting the outcome of the game.
Quote from: MUMac on December 12, 2011, 07:25:10 PM
So some quotes made Tu act like an idiot? A pretty weak player, then.
There have been questions about his mental make-up from the time he committed to Indiana. Wouldn't shock me that it would set him off.
In fact, I still think there's some residual issues between Holloway and MU after last year's NCAA game. We're blessed to have kids who don't react to little bullshit most of the time, Amoroso excluded.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 13, 2011, 09:22:46 AM
There have been questions about his mental make-up from the time he committed to Indiana. Wouldn't shock me that it would set him off.
In fact, I still think there's some residual issues between Holloway and MU after last year's NCAA game. We're blessed to have kids who don't react to little bullcrap most of the time, Amoroso excluded.
And MU pretty much shut down Holloway in that game if I remember correctly.
Yep, he's real tough:
It was arguably Tu Holloway's worst game of his career at Xavier. And maybe the worst night of his basketball life.
In the waning moments of a loss to Marquette in the NCAA Tournament this past March, Holloway was crying on the bench. Just 5 points to go with 5 turnovers. And the tears would reappear over the summer, at times when nobody was watching Holloway shoot jumpshots alone inside Cintas Center. The tears would come back, just thinking about that night in Cleveland. "I had faith that there would be better days ahead," Holloway told me over the summer, after he decided to return to school for his senior season.
http://www.local12.com/content/local_sports/commentary/story/Zachs-Blog-December-3rd/wFlga9vMj0i5krS9vthkkQ.cspx
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on December 13, 2011, 12:03:52 PM
In the waning moments of a loss to Marquette in the NCAA Tournament this past March, Holloway was crying on the bench.
No cryin' allowed in gangsta's paradise!