Great win today! Impressive to withstand the UW run and re-establish control of the game.
Anyone else surprised to see Davante in at both ends when we were protecting a lead late? Davante had the big tip in late and he rebounded well, so it obviously worked, I was just surprised . I suspect it has to do with UW at that point likely looking for 3s and not expecting them to penetrate.
Not surprising at all. Ox is a great FT shooter.
Quote from: Benny B on December 03, 2011, 11:24:10 PM
Not surprising at all. Ox is a great FT shooter.
Exactly what I thought......Easy scenario for your big guy to get the rebound and get fouled immediately.
I've been on the Davante bandwagon since the beginning, so I'm biased, but I think MU is going to be better if we play DG more. In the minutes he has played, he has not looked the least bit tired......he can clearly play more minutes at maximum effectiveness. He's now been through 2 boot camps and a year+ of the toughest practices around. I would not call him fat anymore, either. He's beginning to look STRONG.
Regardless, MU had a stretch where Otule went 0-2 on FT and then traveled in the post in back-to-back possessions. That's a killer. The Davante/Otule discussion has been talked about ad nauseum; they both need to play a lot of minutes because of their obvious strengths in differences. Any way you cut it, IMO Davante needs more minutes. His fitness is not a factor for a few more minutes. More importantly,
The difference between Gardner's offense vs. Otule's defense is larger
OFFENSE:
Gardner - Consistently establishes dominant post position. A MAJOR threat to score off the entry pass. STRONG finisher. CRAFTY. Adaptive and will find ways to score. Very coordinated regardless of size. Excellent footwork and hands. Great passer. So good at FT's, you call them SMOOTH. Possibly one of the best shooters on the team.....his HS coach said he's the first guy picked for games of HORSE.
Otule - A liability on offense. Unreliable from the line. Can establish dominant positioning, but has trouble scoring and is prone to TO's. ZERO range. Bad hands. Serviceable passer.
DEFENSE:
Otule - Elite length and the matching skills to alter any shot around him. Mobile, but with limited range. Very smart and stays in good position. Not an intuitive rebounder.
Gardner - A liability on defense? Limited range. Little lift. Not a shot blocker. Becoming more intuitive. Not a good rebounder, but major potential as a box out rebounder.
The differences on offense and defense are unquestionably immense. However, I think the difference on offense has a far greater impact after you put the paper down. Gardner could be one of the biggest threats offensively and easily hit double digits every night with more minutes. The drop off on defense has a lesser impact. MU would give up more points from the help defense missed, but opposing centers are not going to beat us. I've said it before and I'll say it again.........college centers are almost always GARBAGE offensively. The ONLY reason they play is because of their size on defense. They are the least skilled players on the floor and are usually nothing to worry about getting lit up by. AND that gets back to my point about the impact Gardner can make. He is a center that is NOT GARBAGE on offense. DG can and WILL beat teams with his scoring. He is an ELITE scorer for a center.
I do not care what anyone says. Davante is a FAR more TALENTED basketball player than outle.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 04, 2011, 04:25:46 AM
I do not care what anyone says. Davante is a FAR more TALENTED basketball player than outle.
That sums up my post succinctly.
There is a simplified way to look at it. Who wins in an all other things equal maychup? Even on a bad day Davante would light up Chris in points and fouls....All things equal a MU team with Gardner at center would smoke MU with Otule. Believe it or not, Buzz is s better expert than anyone on these boards....there is ZERO doubt that he is going to be keying on the different stats between Gardner and Otule. He will find that Gardner boosts MU's already top offense.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 04, 2011, 04:25:46 AM
I do not care what anyone says. Davante is a FAR more TALENTED basketball player than outle.
They have different skills and different roles.
Quote from: DomJamesToTheBasket on December 04, 2011, 05:09:27 AM
That sums up my post succinctly.
There is a simplified way to look at it. Who wins in an all other things equal maychup? Even on a bad day Davante would light up Chris in points and fouls....All things equal a MU team with Gardner at center would smoke MU with Otule. Believe it or not, Buzz is s better expert than anyone on these boards....there is ZERO doubt that he is going to be keying on the different stats between Gardner and Otule. He will find that Gardner boosts MU's already top offense.
I'm going to trust Buzz to figure out who's playing more minutes and when each is playing. Buzz sees these guys in practice going up against one another every single day. Buzz is being paid what he is because he is better at this stuff than we are. If Buzz thinks OTule should get 25 minutes and Gardner should get 14 minutes, then I think Otule should get 25 minutes and Gardner should get 14. There is no way that I can possibly know who is the better college basketball player and who provides more of what Marquette needs. Buzz can and does know that.
Does Marquette need more scoring? We have DJO and Crowder who are (almost always) the constants. Then we have Blue and Mayo who have proven they can consistently get towards the double digit points. Then Cadougan, Jamil, Jamail can all score at times. Do we need to sacrifice the defense that OTule brings to get the points that Davante brings? I love Davante, but I think you guys are knocking on OTule far too much. Did he have his most productive game yesterday? Of course not. But that is about the worst matchup we can find for Otule. His strength is battling on the defensive end down low and providing dribble penetration help. When he's pulled out to the 3 point line on every possession it takes away those strengths. He will be much more productive against just about every other team we play this year.
Gardner has to play in crunch time. He can create offense and far better free throw shooter. He has a long way to go to become big time player but he has upside to him. Hopefully he logs more and more minutes as season moves along.
Quote from: wadesworld on December 04, 2011, 09:19:37 AM
I'm going to trust Buzz to figure out who's playing more minutes and when each is playing. Buzz sees these guys in practice going up against one another every single day. Buzz is being paid what he is because he is better at this stuff than we are. If Buzz thinks OTule should get 25 minutes and Gardner should get 14 minutes, then I think Otule should get 25 minutes and Gardner should get 14. There is no way that I can possibly know who is the better college basketball player and who provides more of what Marquette needs. Buzz can and does know that.
Does Marquette need more scoring? We have DJO and Crowder who are (almost always) the constants. Then we have Blue and Mayo who have proven they can consistently get towards the double digit points. Then Cadougan, Jamil, Jamail can all score at times. Do we need to sacrifice the defense that OTule brings to get the points that Davante brings? I love Davante, but I think you guys are knocking on OTule far too much. Did he have his most productive game yesterday? Of course not. But that is about the worst matchup we can find for Otule. His strength is battling on the defensive end down low and providing dribble penetration help. When he's pulled out to the 3 point line on every possession it takes away those strengths. He will be much more productive against just about every other team we play this year.
Perfectly stated.
I'm a BIG Davante fan, yet also feel Otule does contribute a lot that does not show up in the box score. Buzz knows what each of these guys brings to the table, and plays them accordingly. I will say that yesterday was the best I'd seen Davante rotate and play ball screens, and rebound. He was pretty on point yesterday in those areas, and if he continues that he will get more minutes.
Apples and oranges ... but, Davante might be one of the best passing centers around. His long assist pass was a major league move. Regardless, it is a nice discussion to have. Certainly better than "Buzz needs to recruit a big man" broken record chats that went on for two years.
Quote from: DomJamesToTheBasket on December 04, 2011, 05:09:27 AMThat sums up my post succinctly.
There is a simplified way to look at it. Who wins in an all other things equal maychup? Even on a bad day Davante would light up Chris in points and fouls....All things equal a MU team with Gardner at center would smoke MU with Otule. Believe it or not, Buzz is s better expert than anyone on these boards....there is ZERO doubt that he is going to be keying on the different stats between Gardner and Otule. He will find that Gardner boosts MU's already top offense.
Nothing personal, but hahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!!!! You win for funniest post of the day!
(http://www.chimpout.com/forum/images/smilies/rofllg.gif)
A team with Davante or without Davante will score points. DJO, Vander, Jae, Mayo, those guys are going to put up numbers regardless of who's at the five. Offensively. But defensively? Who's going to alter the shots of a DJO, Vander, Jae, or Mayo without Otule? Who's going to block their shots? On the season, CO has 13 blocks, Davante has 2. My guess is that altered shots is a similar percentage difference, only probably a difference of about 40-6.
How do people not get what's different about this team? It's not the offense. We've had a top-25 offense every year under Buzz. It's the defense. Pomeroy has had our defensive ratings go from 51 to 57 to 61 to
13!!! That's NOT because of Gardner.
Listen, DG is a very nice player. He's a great offensive option, and obviously brings more to the table on that end. But CO still draws some fouls, and more importantly, brings a huge amount more on the defensive end. MU with DG vs MU with Otule is a close game regardless, but I'll take the team that has a defensive centerpiece over one with a scoring-only option every single time, especially when the scoring-only option is the 7th-leading scorer on the team (Otule is 8th).
Interesting to see the reactions to my original post, and a little surprised. I am a big Davante fan as well. In fact, I love the fact they have vastly different skill sets, which gives Buzz the ability to summon what he needs at a particular time. In the second Norfolk State game, Buzz tended to go with Davante on the offensive end and Otule when we were on D as much as he could. Protecting the lead late yesterday I would've expected the same. Clearly shows an increase in Buzz's confidence in Davante. Again, I think it likely had as much to do with Wisconsin's style as anything, and have to think if we were playing a team, for example like ours, that relies on a lot of penetration, Chris would have been in.
I have great belief in Buzz's ability and don't doubt for a second he knows better than all of us on the sidelines watching. That's why my post wasn't intended as critical as some seemed to take it. I love the way Buzz has loaded the roster with talent and has a bunch of really good options to choose from. It's going to be a fun season!
What I really love about both is that they force the other team to adjust to them. When CO is in, opposing offenses have to account for him on virtually any shot inside of 15 feet. When DG is in, it seems he can score, get to the line, or find the open man any time he has the ball. You have to try to prevent paint touches to Ox.
Great 1-2 punch, I just hope Durley is close to the defender CO is so we continue to have that type of combo in the coming years.
We've had 2 tight games this year. Ox had 2 huge baskets near the end in each.
What a great dilemma to have. Two 5's, both effective in different ways. Buzz has given this a lot more thought than the rest of us combined and he is with them every day. He knows exactly how long DG can go. (knowing Buzz, he would say it is 2 minutes and 12 seconds or something)
DG is going to get his points. I like him better as the go to guy off of the bench, but that is personal preference. I defer to Buzz on this.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 04, 2011, 11:36:08 AM
Great 1-2 punch, I just hope Durley is close to the defender CO is so we continue to have that type of combo in the coming years.
+1
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 04, 2011, 04:25:46 AM
I do not care what anyone says. Davante is a FAR more TALENTED basketball player than outle.
Not if you make him play with a patch over one eye.
Quote from: buzzchiapet on December 04, 2011, 11:38:42 AMWe've had 2 tight games this year. Ox had 2 huge baskets near the end in each.
True, and I love that we have Ox. He's a great asset, especially when the other team is worn out a bit. Yet in those games, CO averaged 25 mpg and Ox 14.5. My guess is Buzz has a reason for that. And I also think that he has a reason for putting DG in late, especially on the offensive end (scoring and FT shooting). That doesn't mean that CO didn't have a major impact on both games.
I think its great that we have 2 centers with very different skill sets. It would be nice if we had one guy with CO's defense and length and DG's offensive moves and free throw shooting. Well guess what, that guy would be incredibly rare, would be playing for Kansas or NC and would almost certainly leave for the NBA after one season. So instead we've got the same aggregate tool set but in a package that we can employee what we need most for a given game. If Buzz can get to the point that we are consistently getting guys with high major talent like we seem to have now we can have roster spaces for specialists.(like Jake Thomas) I think of Davante like a zone trap. You bring it out for a few possession during which it gives you a net increase in points of 5 to 10. Then you switch out of it before the opposition really figures it out. I love the idea of a variety of weapons. It will put us in a better position to win in conference and we'll be a much tougher out in March.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on December 04, 2011, 12:12:25 PM
I think its great that we have 2 centers with very different skill sets. It would be nice if we had one guy with CO's defense and length and DG's offensive moves and free throw shooting. Well guess what, that guy would be incredibly rare, would be playing for Kansas or NC and would almost certainly leave for the NBA after one season. So instead we've got the same aggregate tool set but in a package that we can employee what we need most for a given game. If Buzz can get to the point that we are consistently getting guys with high major talent like we seem to have now we can have roster spaces for specialists.(like Jake Thomas) I think of Davante like a zone trap. You bring it out for a few possession during which it gives you a net increase in points of 5 to 10. Then you switch out of it before the opposition really figures it out. I love the idea of a variety of weapons. It will put us in a better position to win in conference and we'll be a much tougher out in March.
That guy would also only get 5 fouls...our two-headed monster gets 10 ;)
I agree that Ox has more skills than Otule. I hate to add that he still looks out of shape. Thought he dropped 25 pounds this summer. He looked tired at times last night.
Dante is maybe ten pounds down to evening that playing time ratio with Chris. He's come a long way from last year. Just some monor tweaking on the conditioning front.
I think it's similar to football teams who utilize one running back to wear down a defense with his speed, and have another to run people over on third down and goal line plays.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 04, 2011, 04:25:46 AM
I do not care what anyone says. Davante is a FAR more TALENTED basketball player than outle.
Well...I guess this is his opportunity to prove you correct.
Wish we could see more energy, more enthusiasm on Davante's face when he plays. He looks almost mad or upset when he plays and when the coaches talk to him. He moves slowly. Would love to him play with more intensity and make the most of the opportunity when his name is called to play!
I don't get that. Because you cannot tell whether or not he is playing with intensity, then he must not be? That makes no sense. He is playing well and his intensity is fine. Because he does not outwardly show it the way you do, or prefer, is immaterial.
Seems to just be his personality,unflappable. he does well getting position under the backboard that's what I care about
Quote from: msbjim on December 08, 2011, 02:51:56 PM
Wish we could see more energy, more enthusiasm on Davante's face when he plays. He looks almost mad or upset when he plays and when the coaches talk to him. He moves slowly. Would love to him play with more intensity and make the most of the opportunity when his name is called to play!
A little picky, don't you think? Well...
I also don't love Davante's demeanor on the court, or whatever you want to call it. After he doesnt get a call on the offensive end (be it shot or rebound) he flails his arms around, meanwhile his man is beating him down the court. Also, looks absolutely disgusted every time he is removed for the game. He's the only guys on the team that truly does this on an almost regular basis. It could just be his immaturity, but its just not a good look.
Look for both of these in the next game; I guarantee you see them.
That being said. I think he will get more opportunity in the coming weeks (Maybe 17-18 minutes instead of 14)...and I am pretty sold on the fact that he makes the most of them...with a few minor speed bumps along the way.
I think Davante is very talented. Would just like to see more hustle and speed up and down the court.
I do think the last two games Davante has improved his rebounding and defense. He always has gotten the rebounds he gets his hands on, but it seemed to me he was getting to more balls. He still needs to improve on defense, but I think he is better now than he was the first game of the season.
Quote from: msbjim on December 09, 2011, 08:31:06 AM
I think Davante is very talented. Would just like to see more hustle and speed up and down the court.
Don't let his demeanor fool you. He's a mello dude.
Agree with all who realize that, overall, Otule is more valuable for this team. Buzz agrees, too, which is why Otule had been getting at least 60 percent of the minutes.
That being said, I value Gardner's offensive game. And yet ...
Title of this thread is "Davante in at crunch time." Well, he was in at crunch time and bricked two huge free throws. Can't have that. I'm confident he'll come through next time (he said, crossing his fingers).
It's nice to have the discussion - everybody seems to appreciate the fact that they bring different things to the table. It's like my old friend used to say about the ladies - some are built for speed and some are built for comfort.
Quote from: MU82 on December 09, 2011, 09:28:58 AM
Agree with all who realize that, overall, Otule is more valuable for this team. Buzz agrees, too, which is why Otule had been getting at least 60 percent of the minutes.
That being said, I value Gardner's offensive game. And yet ...
Title of this thread is "Davante in at crunch time." Well, he was in at crunch time and bricked two huge free throws. Can't have that. I'm confident he'll come through next time (he said, crossing his fingers).
Davante didn't exactly "brick" 2 FT's at crunch time - both were right there and rattled out. He's probably the team's 3rd best FT shooter after DJO and Mayo. Davante made some big plays in crunch time in the Wisconsin game, if you don't recall?
I like Davante and I want him in on offense at crunch time. And perhaps "brick" was too strong a word. But he still needs to make free throws -- DJO missed a big one, too -- and I hope he does.
Davante also made some big baskets late in the 2nd half against Norfolk State (2nd game).
Quote from: Ners on December 09, 2011, 10:27:46 AM
Davante didn't exactly "brick" 2 FT's at crunch time - both were right there and rattled out. He's probably the team's 3rd best FT shooter after DJO and Mayo. Davante made some big plays in crunch time in the Wisconsin game, if you don't recall?
I'd argue that DG is our BEST FT shooter. Missing two shots down the stretch stinks, but his numbers are amazing. Especially for a big guy.
Everyone (except maybe Novak) is going to miss some FTs. Hard to complain about anyone shooting 77-78% from the charity stripe.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 09, 2011, 11:43:45 AM
I'd argue that DG is our BEST FT shooter. Missing two shots down the stretch stinks, but his numbers are amazing. Especially for a big guy.
I am with you on this. I always felt he was the best FT shooter last year. Soft touch. Accurate.
Quote from: msbjim on December 09, 2011, 08:31:06 AM
I think Davante is very talented. Would just like to see more hustle and speed up and down the court.
http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=1095 (http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=1095)