Draft Express just updated, and keeps Jimmy Butler at #2 in the 2nd round with the Cavs, though it now picks a new teammate in Kanter with the Cavs 4th pick (still Irving at No. 1, though I guess owner and rest of office disagree on the No. 1 pick).
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2011/
Looking through the rest of this class of forwards, a few things stand out. First is how wellJimmy Butlerseems to rank in virtually every category, starting with overall offensive efficiency (6th), and continuing with turnover rate (2nd best), free throw rate (2nd) and transition scoring (2nd). If he can improve his ability to make shots with his feet set (13th, 36% FG) he will likely carve out a long career for himself considering how staunch of a defender he is.
Anyone else notice his 39" max vert statistic? He ranks in the top 10 out of all potential draftees I believe. Pretty impressive!
On NBA tonight they featured him as one of three sleepers in the draft along with Leslie from Georgia and the underachiever from UCLA.
I've felt for awhile this past season that Jimmy is a better NBA prospect than Lazar. Jimmy is 2 years younger entering the draft, and a much better athlete. Jimmy's foot speed is significantly better than Lazar's, as is his vertical (though I didn't realize it was 39 good). No way Lazar could have defended a Tu Holloway, and even Marshon Brooks.
Jimmy seems to shoot better off the dribble than did Lazar, though both shoot more of a set shot from the 3 - edge to Lazar on being better shooter. Just think with Jimmy's work ethic and character, he will work/will himself into being a very good shooter. Many reports from his workouts indicated he shot the ball better than most teams expected.
Should be a fun draft night to see where this great kid gets drafted. I could see anywhere from 15-30..
Quote from: Ners on June 21, 2011, 08:14:13 AM
I've felt for awhile this past season that Jimmy is a better NBA prospect than Lazar. Jimmy is 2 years younger entering the draft, and a much better athlete. Jimmy's foot speed is significantly better than Lazar's, as is his vertical (though I didn't realize it was 39 good). No way Lazar could have defended a Tu Holloway, and even Marshon Brooks.
Jimmy seems to shoot better off the dribble than did Lazar, though both shoot more of a set shot from the 3 - edge to Lazar on being better shooter. Just think with Jimmy's work ethic and character, he will work/will himself into being a very good shooter. Many reports from his workouts indicated he shot the ball better than most teams expected.
Should be a fun draft night to see where this great kid gets drafted. I could see anywhere from 15-30..
No way he goes before 25.
From a purely selfish perspective, I really hope Jimmy comes to Cleveland. He sounds like a great kid, and I'd love to have him here in town and get a chance to follow his NBA career up close.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2011, 08:19:30 AM
No way he goes before 25.
It definitely would be a surprise to see him drafted between 15-25, but I don't think it is completely out of the realm of possibility...lots of things to like about JFB..and let's face it - teams aren't exactly transparent as to their draft intentions, and there are a lot of smoke screens that get sent out.
Jimmy can be as good as Wes in the NBA..
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 21, 2011, 08:24:56 AM
From a purely selfish perspective, I really hope Jimmy comes to Cleveland. He sounds like a great kid, and I'd love to have him here in town and get a chance to follow his NBA career up close.
I would be very sad for whomever gets drafted for any professional sport to play in Ohio.
Hopefully Jimmy ends up somewhere that he has a chance of being on a team with a winning record in the next 5 years.
Quote from: Ners on June 21, 2011, 08:26:38 AM
It definitely would be a surprise to see him drafted between 15-25, but I don't think it is completely out of the realm of possibility...lots of things to like about JFB..and let's face it - teams aren't exactly transparent as to their draft intentions, and there are a lot of smoke screens that get sent out.
Jimmy can be as good as Wes in the NBA..
He isn't going to be able to score like Wes IMO. I think 15 is a little high, but I would be surprised to see him in the bottom third. I think he would make a perfect role type player on a team that is already winning.
I think Jimmy's got NBA size, and some good characteristics that fit the NBA game.
Honestly, I think his career might come down to his ability to shoot. If he can make the baseline 3pter, he'll be in the league a while. That shot is so huge for NBA SF, and they have to make it when open.
The rest of his game is in pretty good shape.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2011, 08:19:30 AM
No way he goes before 25.
Why not? Honestly, I expect him to go before 25. I'd love the Bulls to take him, but don't expect him to be on the board when they pick.
I know they are way different players, but I see Jimmy being a guy like Luc Mbah a Moute in a way. Doesn't put up mind blowing numbers, but can rebound and defend well at his position. Hard to take guys like that off the floor.
I agree that he probably won't score like Wesley has.
Quote from: brewcity77 on June 21, 2011, 08:53:11 AM
Why not? Honestly, I expect him to go before 25. I'd love the Bulls to take him, but don't expect him to be on the board when they pick.
I love Jimmy as much as the next guy, but the NBA draft is almost always about potential. My guess is that a LOT of foreign players get drafted and stashed due to the overall weak draft. With Jimmy, you know what you are getting, and sure that could be nice... but why take a role player (no offense) when you could draft a foreign player, develop them, and bring in a potential starter a year or two down the road?
I'm sorry, I just don't see JFB going until the last quarter of the first round or later.
My concern with Butler is he'll fall into that category where all the GM's love him but are betting that their colleagues won't spend a "high" pick on a guy like that so they all play poker to the hand and figure they can get him with one of their later selections thus alleviating them of the first round guarantee (see: Lazar).
This would leave him in that spot where you get to selection #48 and are praying he doesn't get selected and rather ends up like Matthews and can choose where he goes for a better situation for fear that he gets buried on a good team and, with no summer league, has little opportunity to shine.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 21, 2011, 08:43:10 AM
I would be very sad for whomever gets drafted for any professional sport to play in Ohio.
Hopefully Jimmy ends up somewhere that he has a chance of being on a team with a winning record in the next 5 years.
While I don't really disagree with what you said (I admitted I was being selfish), I'd be willing to wager that the Cavs will have a winning record in the next five years. Care to think of something creative?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2011, 09:04:20 AM
I love Jimmy as much as the next guy, but the NBA draft is almost always about potential. My guess is that a LOT of foreign players get drafted and stashed due to the overall weak draft. With Jimmy, you know what you are getting, and sure that could be nice... but why take a role player (no offense) when you could draft a foreign player, develop them, and bring in a potential starter a year or two down the road?
I'm sorry, I just don't see JFB going until the last quarter of the first round or later.
Only comment here would be that Jimmy is a very YOUNG 21 to be entering the league. Lazar was 23. Jimmy does have some upside...I guess do you go for an 18-19 year old Euro who has NO high-major experience, or go for a kid 2-3 years older (Jimmy) who's played well at arguable the highest level of college basketball (Big East), and has great character and comes from a program that is known to turn out over-achievers?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2011, 08:19:30 AM
No way he goes before 25.
QuoteNo way Lazar goes before 32 (40, 50).
- Tons of posters last year. It only takes 1 team. A GM/Owner who says: This is the guy we want. We can trade down from 23 to 27, get practically nothing for it and risk him not being there. Or we can just reach for him at 23.
You're probably right, but don't say 'no way' about any 18+ spot.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 21, 2011, 09:55:54 AM
While I don't really disagree with what you said (I admitted I was being selfish), I'd be willing to wager that the Cavs will have a winning record in the next five years. Care to think of something creative?
As you'd likely expect, nothing comes to mind :)
Quote from: Ners on June 21, 2011, 10:32:37 AM
Only comment here would be that Jimmy is a very YOUNG 21 to be entering the league. Lazar was 23. Jimmy does have some upside...I guess do you go for an 18-19 year old Euro who has NO high-major experience, or go for a kid 2-3 years older (Jimmy) who's played well at arguable the highest level of college basketball (Big East), and has great character and comes from a program that is known to turn out over-achievers?
College basketball talent does not equal pro talent.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2011, 03:36:59 PM
College basketball talent does not equal pro talent.
Obviously - but my point was a 21-year old American who has played at the highest level of college ball, is a lot lower risk than an 18 or 19 year old Euro - which you had previously pointed out (below) could hinder Jimmy's ability to get drafted in the 1st round...plus many of the Euro prospects drafted over the last 5-10 years have washed out and been duds..I can maybe think of 10 good foriegn players in the league..the rest are all American.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 21, 2011, 09:04:20 AM
I love Jimmy as much as the next guy, but the NBA draft is almost always about potential. My guess is that a LOT of foreign players get drafted and stashed due to the overall weak draft. With Jimmy, you know what you are getting, and sure that could be nice... but why take a role player (no offense) when you could draft a foreign player, develop them, and bring in a potential starter a year or two down the road?
I'm sorry, I just don't see JFB going until the last quarter of the first round or later.
In 1992, though, the year of the original U.S. Olympic "Dream Team," the NBA had only 21 international players on its rosters. Today, that number has tripled to 20 percent of all NBA players who represent 40 countries.
Checking every NBA roster, there isnt one without some player rooted outside the USA. Dallas drafted Dirk Nowitzki from a European team..that worked out ok.
Last year, an NBA scout rated the European pros as AAA minor, and NCAA Div 1, as the AA minor level of play, to that of the NBA. Thats probably about right, as some NCAA kids who dont make the NBA, go to Europe, including, some of our recent ones.
By math definition, any 18-19 year old european cant equal the number of playing years of a 21 year old, such as JB...but to base the younger's failures on the claim the quality of pro ball in Europe doesnt favorably compare to NCAA Div. 1, isnt a supported basis.
Quote from: houwarrior on June 21, 2011, 08:15:29 PM
In 1992, though, the year of the original U.S. Olympic "Dream Team," the NBA had only 21 international players on its rosters. Today, that number has tripled to 20 percent of all NBA players who represent 40 countries.
Checking every NBA roster, there isnt one without some player rooted outside the USA. Dallas drafted Dirk Nowitzki from a European team..that worked out ok.
Last year, an NBA scout rated the European pros as AAA minor, and NCAA Div 1, as the AA minor level of play, to that of the NBA. Thats probably about right, as some NCAA kids who dont make the NBA, go to Europe, including, some of our recent ones.
By math definition, any 18-19 year old european cant equal the number of playing years of a 21 year old, such as JB...but to base the younger's failures on the claim the quality of pro ball in Europe doesnt favorably compare to NCAA Div. 1, isnt a supported basis.
Thanks for the findings...the issue in Hards point was the statement that in Jimmy "why take a role player when you could take a Euro who would evolve into a potential starter?" The reality is that still, 4 out of every 5 NBA players is from the US, and I would surmise the number of starters in the NBA who are American is higher than 80%. I don't see an 18 or 19 year old Euro having any better starting prospects in the NBA than a 21-year old Jimmy Big East tested..
However, how could guys from our D-1 college level rated Double AA, be good enough to go land roster spots on the Euro AAA league - yet the NBA is still 4/5ths American? Wouldn't the Euro's be too good/better than our D-1 crop to where they shouldn't be able to make it even in a Euro pro-league? To me the AAA league should be a better feeder system to a Pro League, than the Double AA league...which clearly isn't the case here..
Quote from: Ners on June 21, 2011, 09:57:55 PM
Thanks for the findings...the issue in Hards point was the statement that in Jimmy "why take a role player when you could take a Euro who would evolve into a potential starter?" The reality is that still, 4 out of every 5 NBA players is from the US, and I would surmise the number of starters in the NBA who are American is higher than 80%. I don't see an 18 or 19 year old Euro having any better starting prospects in the NBA than a 21-year old Jimmy Big East tested..
However, how could guys from our D-1 college level rated Double AA, be good enough to go land roster spots on the Euro AAA league - yet the NBA is still 4/5ths American? Wouldn't the Euro's be too good/better than our D-1 crop to where they shouldn't be able to make it even in a Euro pro-league? To me the AAA league should be a better feeder system to a Pro League, than the Double AA league...which clearly isn't the case here..
Look dude, I am not arguing in your hypothetical world. I am saying that this is what GMs do. They will take a gamble on a Euro who could be the next Dirk rather than take a sure bet with Jimmy. This is because GM's (especially of smaller market teams) HAVE to take risks. I hope you understand what I am saying.
Otherwise I fear this is just becoming a wall argument.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 22, 2011, 05:18:48 AM
Look dude, I am not arguing in your hypothetical world. I am saying that this is what GMs do. They will take a gamble on a Euro who could be the next Dirk rather than take a sure bet with Jimmy. This is because GM's (especially of smaller market teams) HAVE to take risks. I hope you understand what I am saying.
Otherwise I fear this is just becoming a wall argument.
Sure - I do understand what you are saying, and the Euro's have been the en vogue 2nd round picks as teams can stash them overseas and not be bound to guaranteed first round money...yet they retain the rights. We've seen Milwaukee Bucks flop epicly with Yi. He was the next big thing. Darko Milicic was the next Dirk. There's been exactly 1 Dirk EVER. A lot of GM's were chasing that dream after Dirk, and a lot of those GM's aren't in a GM capacity anymore. I can't think of more than 10 Euro's or foreign born players who have started in the league consistently.
My premise is that Jimmy has just as much upside/starter potential based on playing Big East ball and developing in a program like Marquette - as does some Euro with potential...and I think the starting lineups/composition of the league being 80% American bear this out..
Quote from: Ners on June 22, 2011, 07:29:38 AM
Sure - I do understand what you are saying, and the Euro's have been the en vogue 2nd round picks as teams can stash them overseas and not be bound to guaranteed first round money...yet they retain the rights. We've seen Milwaukee Bucks flop epicly with Yi. He was the next big thing. Darko Milicic was the next Dirk. There's been exactly 1 Dirk EVER. A lot of GM's were chasing that dream after Dirk, and a lot of those GM's aren't in a GM capacity anymore. I can't think of more than 10 Euro's or foreign born players who have started in the league consistently.
My premise is that Jimmy has just as much upside/starter potential based on playing Big East ball and developing in a program like Marquette - as does some Euro with potential...and I think the starting lineups/composition of the league being 80% American bear this out..
Yao Ming
Dirk Nowitzki
Hedo
Manu
Sasha V
Pau Gasol
Marc Gasol
Tony Parker
Deng
Okur
AK-47
Big Z
seriously, thats just a short list.
If you really want to get into it, Steve Nash is from South Africa, and Tim Duncan is from St. Croix.
Jimmy Butler, or the potential for one of those? I realize they aren't all going to be Dirk, and the GMs do too. The NBA drafts on POTENTIAL, not how well a players has played. It doesn't matter a hill of beans if he played in the BEAST or the SEC, or the WAC. If the best college players were the best NBA players, Christian Laetner would be a HOF player.
Also, if my aunt had a cock, she would be my uncle.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 22, 2011, 07:50:08 AM
Yao Ming
Dirk Nowitzki
Hedo
Manu
Sasha V
Pau Gasol
Marc Gasol
Tony Parker
Deng
Okur
AK-47
Big Z
seriously, thats just a short list.
If you really want to get into it, Steve Nash is from South Africa, and Tim Duncan is from St. Croix.
Jimmy Butler, or the potential for one of those? I realize they aren't all going to be Dirk, and the GMs do too. The NBA drafts on POTENTIAL, not how well a players has played. It doesn't matter a hill of beans if he played in the BEAST or the SEC, or the WAC. If the best college players were the best NBA players, Christian Laetner would be a HOF player.
Also, if my aunt had a cock, she would be my uncle.
I suspect if you made a list of all the Euros drafted in both the first and second round who flamed out - the list would be significantly longer. Nash, Duncan, Dieng played college ball in the states. Sasha V is a scrub..
Regardless, we can agree to disagree on Jimmy Butler's potential - I happen to think he has a lot of potential at 21 years old, and you seem to think there are 18, 19, or 20 year old Euro's that have more potential who have never played high major college ball - yet it is high major college ball that feeds 80% of the players to the NBA..
Quote from: Ners on June 22, 2011, 08:31:03 AM
I suspect if you made a list of all the Euros drafted in both the first and second round who flamed out - the list would be significantly longer. Nash, Duncan, Dieng played college ball in the states. Sasha V is a scrub..
Regardless, we can agree to disagree on Jimmy Butler's potential - I happen to think he has a lot of potential at 21 years old, and you seem to think there are 18, 19, or 20 year old Euro's that have more potential who have never played high major college ball - yet it is high major college ball that feeds 80% of the players to the NBA..
Three posts and claims into this, and I haven't seen you back up your made up statistics once. On the other hand, I made a short list of more than 10 foreign players who have started in the league consistantly. Would you prefer 30 before you eat a bit of crow?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=All-World-30Best
I realize the list is fom 2007, but many of the players are still relevant, and others have been added. Also, Nash went to Santa Clara... not exactly a 'high major'.
Now do you realize why people don't bother to argue with walls?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 22, 2011, 08:41:01 AM
Three posts and claims into this, and I haven't seen you back up your made up statistics once. On the other hand, I made a short list of more than 10 foreign players who have started in the league consistantly. Would you prefer 30 before you eat a bit of crow?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=All-World-30Best
I realize the list is fom 2007, but many of the players are still relevant, and others have been added. Also, Nash went to Santa Clara... not exactly a 'high major'.
Now do you realize why people don't bother to argue with walls?
How many players are in the NBA Hards? Try 13 x 30 teams or 390 players...which your list of 30 translates into 7.6% of all NBA players...the rest..where do they come from?? The U.S. You've provided a list from 2007 of 30 foreign born players - of which about 7 played college ball in the States - Ben Gordon, Deng, Duncan, Nash, Bogut. Many on this list are from from sure-fire starters which you argue is why you draft a Euro instead of Jimmy.
Perhaps the stat Houston Warrior provided earlier about the NBA being 80% US, 20% foreign was high - but I took him at his word. I would like to hear your explanation as to why you think drafting a Euro gives an NBA chance a better chance at getting a starter caliber player - when the league is at minimum 80% American...and your above list which lists the Top 30 foreign players or 7.6% of the NBA roster total - includes guys who aren't even starters.
Is that enough statistics for you? Now do you realize why I try not aruge/debate with wrestlers like yourself over basketball matters?
Quote from: Ners on June 22, 2011, 09:06:56 AM
How many players are in the NBA Hards? Try 13 x 30 teams or 390 players...which your list of 30 translates into 7.6% of all NBA players...the rest..where do they come from?? The U.S. You've provided a list from 2007 of 30 foreign born players - of which about 7 played college ball in the States - Ben Gordon, Deng, Duncan, Nash, Bogut. Many on this list are from from sure-fire starters which you argue is why you draft a Euro instead of Jimmy.
Perhaps the stat Houston Warrior provided earlier about the NBA being 80% US, 20% foreign was high - but I took him at his word. I would like to hear your explanation as to why you think drafting a Euro gives an NBA chance a better chance at getting a starter caliber player - when the league is at minimum 80% American...and your above list which lists the Top 30 foreign players or 7.6% of the NBA roster total - includes guys who aren't even starters.
Is that enough statistics for you? Now do you realize why I try not aruge/debate with wrestlers like yourself over basketball matters?
You are so incredibly short sighted and defensive about EVERYTHING. My God. Those are the TOP 30 players, and that was 4 years ago. Your argument now makes another assumption that none have been drafted in the last 4 years, IN ADDITION to your assumption that the 30 named was an all-inclusive list.
I'm done arguing with nit picking idiots like you. You harp on 84 worse than anyone, and you are the same damn person with a different point of view.
GET OVER YOURSELF, NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK 95% OF THE TIME. At least I am smart enough to realize that about myself.
Or you could just watch the draft tomorrow and then talk all the crap you want. I am saying what GMs WILL do, and you are trying to say what GM's should do.
I apologize if you can't read and don't understand that was the argument that I was making from the beginning.
As for Hou's stats, they are pretty accurate, with a few less foreign players than 20% (13.5%)... Though, that has nothing to do with my argument.
http://www.rpiratings.com/NBA.html
edit: remove the personal stuff.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 22, 2011, 09:23:50 AM
You are so incredibly short sighted and defensive about EVERYTHING. My God. Those are the TOP 30 players, and that was 4 years ago. Your argument now makes another assumption that none have been drafted in the last 4 years, IN ADDITION to your assumption that the 30 named was an all-inclusive list.
I'm done arguing with nit picking idiots like you. You harp on 84 worse than anyone, and you are the same damn person with a different point of view.
GET OVER YOURSELF, NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU THINK 95% OF THE TIME. At least I am smart enough to realize that about myself.
Or you could just watch the draft tomorrow and then talk all the crap you want. I am saying what GMs WILL do, and you are trying to say what GM's should do.
I apologize if you can't read and don't understand that was the argument that I was making from the beginning.
As for Hou's stats, they are pretty accurate, with a few less foreign players than 20% (13.5%)... Though, that has nothing to do with my argument.
http://www.rpiratings.com/NBA.html
edit: remove the personal stuff.
No worries Hards...I'm completely baffled as to what point you are trying to make...much like 84, you twist and contort things to try to correct flawed logic from the beginning and just dig a deeper and deeper hole.
To refresh - you stated you don't draft a Jimmy (high major college player - who will be nothing more than a role player without starter potential with limited upside in the NBA), but instead draft a Euro who has more upside and could be a starter. Then, after examining the statistics it shows only 13% of the NBA is foreign, yet some of those foreign born players played in the US at high-major schools, and your TOP 30 foreign player list includes many players who aren't even starters in the NBA?
Your initial statement had NOTHING to do with what NBA GM's will do - it was about what you would do - and that was draft a Euro, over a guy like Jimmy, because Jimmy will never be anything but a role player in the NBA. (Fair for you to have that opinion for sure, but to no surprise, I disagree...think Jimmy will evolve into a starter in the NBA and have a nice career.)
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 21, 2011, 08:24:56 AM
From a purely selfish perspective, I really hope Jimmy comes to Cleveland. He sounds like a great kid, and I'd love to have him here in town and get a chance to follow his NBA career up close.
I too would love if he went to Cleveland. I'm a big Cavaliers fan and think that Jimmy's defensive abilities alone would get him on the floor with Scott as our coach. His work ethic and leadership would also be big time positives in Scott's eyes.
Quote from: Ners on June 22, 2011, 12:52:04 PMNo worries Hards...I'm completely baffled as to what point you are trying to make...much like 84, you twist and contort things to try to correct flawed logic from the beginning and just dig a deeper and deeper hole.
That'd be you, buddy.
QuoteYour initial statement had NOTHING to do with what NBA GM's will do - it was about what you would do - and that was draft a Euro, over a guy like Jimmy, because Jimmy will never be anything but a role player in the NBA. (Fair for you to have that opinion for sure, but to no surprise, I disagree...think Jimmy will evolve into a starter in the NBA and have a nice career.)
Perhaps you should reread my initial statement.