http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20110420/RGVRNO/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp2041000212
He is really tearing it up!
Hot Damn, McNeal went off. Good to see him do well
Glad to see Jerel lighting it up and really hope he gets a fair shot at the NBA. Kinda troubling that he also had 4 to's and a -7 +/- though.
Quote from: leever on April 21, 2011, 03:05:07 PM
Glad to see Jerel lighting it up and really hope he gets a fair shot at the NBA. Kinda troubling that he also had 4 to's and a -7 +/- though.
I would have been ecstatic with only 4 TO's in a 35 point game from Jerel in college.
Quote from: leever on April 21, 2011, 03:05:07 PM
Glad to see Jerel lighting it up and really hope he gets a fair shot at the NBA. Kinda troubling that he also had 4 to's and a -7 +/- though.
Even with 4 to's that is a 2 to 1 ratio.
He avg. 3 points per shot, with only 1 three.
He made 67% and got to the line 20 times. That means he was driving to the hoop all day. No one does that and doesn't commit a few extra to's.
What is more troubling is that people think +- is anysort of measure of a player... Rose for MVP!
Jerel's averages in the NBADL playoffs:
1st Round: 38.3 min, 23 ppg, 7.7 apg, 4.7 rpg, 1.3 spg, 1.67 TO
2nd Round: 44 min, 33 ppg, 6.0 apg, 7.0 rpg, 1.0 spg, 3.5 TO
With those gaudy numbers, I can forgive the TOs!!!
Plus hitting 2 clutch free throws to send it into overtime. Nice work Jerel.
RGV loses in Game 1 to Iowa Energy.
McNeal is 8-21 (1-6 3pt), 20 pts, 8 reb and 5 TOs.
Game 1 Recap: You gotta "love" Scheyer's matador defense. McNeal must've taught him that.
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2011/04/24/20110421_iwa_rgv_gm1_recap.nba/index.html
nvm
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on April 25, 2011, 06:40:47 PM
RGV loses in Game 1 to Iowa Energy.
McNeal is 8-21 (1-6 3pt), 20 pts, 8 reb and 5 TOs.
Boy if that aint a typical Jerel line.
I don't see McNeal making the NBA as a scorer. He's not athletic enough to score at his size.
http://www.nba.com/dleague/
Monster game for Jerel: 37-9-8, 2 steals.
Good for Jerel.
I've gotta say that I too get irritated by the attitude that a lot of posters here seems to have about Marquette's all time leading scorer.
From the first day that kid stepped on campus, he competed. As the years went on he consistently worked to add to his game. The stats that he put up during his career certainly showed that to be the case.
He was the least physically gifted of the 3 amigos but he played incredibly hard. He was a Warrior.
I think, after the ego blow of not getting drafted and then the troubles in Europe, we're starting to see the Jerel we saw at Marquette emerge again. He's tough. He's a leader. And he keeps seeming to get better.
In the post-game interview his coach was saying he thinks he's been the MVP of the DL. A cynic might say that's like being named "Tallest Midget." I'd say he's doing the absolute most he can with the opportunity he's been given.
Good for you Jerel. Keep doing the Warriors proud.
Quote from: nycwarrior on April 28, 2011, 01:49:15 AM
Good for Jerel.
I've gotta say that I too get irritated by the attitude that a lot of posters here seems to have about Marquette's all time leading scorer.
So you have no complaints about any shot Jerel ever took?
Buzz was @ the game:
Vipers vs. Energy: Gm 2 (http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2011/04/28/20110427_rgv_iwa_recap.nba/index.html)
Jerel had/has flaws, just like every other player to ever play at MU. I am trying to think of a player we've ever had that I didn't yell at while watching. Still thinking...... But he never gave less than 100% effort. That is all you can ask. He made mistakes, but it was never because he took a play off. Good to see him having success, good to see him playing the point. I said when he was at MU that he was going to have to learn to play the point because the market for 6'2 shooting guards in the NBA is not good. I always thought the 'Charlie Bell' route was going to be how he made it to the league.
The lack of appreciation for a guy who absolutely busted his butt for four years and happened to become the school's all-time leading scorer is amazing. Yes, he had flaws and was frustrating at times, but never from a lack of effort or willingness to compete. Some of the comments seem to suggest he was a liability out there. I don't get it.
Hope this is like a reality show, where the MVP of the NDBL finals gets a ticket to the League.
.. What's the deal with these freaking highlights? I've watched 3-4 of these when Jerel has a great game, and they'll have ONE highlight of him. He scored 37 points for crap's sake, they showed two highlights at the very end, like leading both teams in points is no big deal.
Same thing for his 35 point game last week.
Quote from: StillWarriors on April 28, 2011, 08:20:55 AM
The lack of appreciation for a guy who absolutely busted his butt for four years and happened to become the school's all-time leading scorer is amazing. Yes, he had flaws and was frustrating at times, but never from a lack of effort or willingness to compete. Some of the comments seem to suggest he was a liability out there. I don't get it.
Agreed. And for those still harping on the Villanova game, get the eff over it. Yeah it sucked, but did that game hurt MU all that much? No. That team had a ceiling without Dominic.
Find it interesting that people don't get on Lazar still for stepping on the baseline. Or Jimmy for "Ole-ing" against Washington. But Jerel still gets killed for a mistake in a far less meaningful game.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on April 26, 2011, 02:20:05 PM
I don't see McNeal making the NBA as a scorer. He's not athletic enough to score at his size.
I know its the NBADL, but he is putting up 30 in games.
He at least deserves a shot... considering some of the mooks that are in the league currently.
Quote from: StillWarriors on April 28, 2011, 08:20:55 AM
The lack of appreciation for a guy who absolutely busted his butt for four years and happened to become the school's all-time leading scorer is amazing. Yes, he had flaws and was frustrating at times, but never from a lack of effort or willingness to compete. Some of the comments seem to suggest he was a liability out there. I don't get it.
Sorry, but I thought he took too many shots and took too many chances on defense for the sake of steals. The fact that he is MU's all time leading scorer has more to do with the sheer volume of games he played, and the sheer number of shots he took, more than anything.
Every team has had a player on every team who has made mistakes. I loved Jerel when he was here, loved when he became the all time leading scorer, and I love to follow him now when I can, just like all of the MU alumni all over the world.
Hats off to him and I hope he can make it into the league.
He gave us a chance every night to win, and when he didn't play we scored 47 points.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 08:52:30 AM
Sorry, but I thought he took too many shots and took too many chances on defense for the sake of steals. The fact that he is MU's all time leading scorer has more to do with the sheer volume of games he played, and the sheer number of shots he took, more than anything.
While that's true, it says something about #22 that he was able to play that volume of games and get that number of minutes. He earned all of that playing time.
I'll never say he's the greatest scorer in MU history, but still, it's a very, very impressive record... especially considering he won defensive player of the year.
I understand under a microscope, his game has some flaws, but I'd put him on my team everyday of the week. He was a great college player.
Here is the problem with your statement...he was not a "great college player." He barely cracked the top 100 in a couple of the kenpom efficiency categories. I mean, he was ranked 493rd in offensive efficiency.
Look, he was a good player who put forth maximum effort...but made a number of bone-headed plays in every game that made you want to tear your hair out.
1st team all big east
2nd team all american
big east defensive player of the year
I'd say that's a great college player
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 09:26:08 AM
Here is the problem with your statement...he was not a "great college player." He barely cracked the top 100 in a couple of the kenpom efficiency categories. I mean, he was ranked 493rd in offensive efficiency.
Which is why games are played on the court and not a computer monitor.
Jerel was a great player at MU. His resume backs that up.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 28, 2011, 09:39:53 AM
Which is why games are played on the court and not a computer monitor.
Yeah, didn't think people could put together a coherent response to that point either. But I didn't think that people would break out the "computer statistics are irrelevent" after only 13 minutes.
Quote from: DJO's Pump Fake on April 28, 2011, 09:29:04 AM
1st team all big east
2nd team all american
big east defensive player of the year
I'd say that's a great college player
Or an overrated one....which is what I think he was.
After looking back at it, he was the ONLY guard on the 1st team all BE, arguments could be made that he was THE best guard in the BE since he was the only one to make 1st team all BE.
For whatever reason, you resort to computer numbers to try and discount jerel's career, when the proof is in the MU record books.
1st in scoring obviously
1st in steals
1st in games played
most versatile, durable player we had since Dwade.
And what about the one game he didn't play? WE SCORED 47 POINTS!
Really? McNeal came at a time when we were reeling from two consecutive NIT seasons and helped put us on the map in the Big East. He always played hard and gave our team an attitude. Jerel was an all-decade player at MU. If you can't appreciate the positives he brought, you're a spoiled fan.
In no particular order:
Wade
Diener
Novak
James
McNeal
Matthews
Hayward
Butler
RJax
and then.... (who do you put in the 10th slot? Maybe DJO for the year he had last year?)
It's not debatable at all that he was a top 5-7 player for MU during the strongest decade in our history since the 70's. An argument can be made that he was #2. What more do people want from him?
Quote from: MUCrew on April 28, 2011, 06:50:03 AM
Buzz was @ the game:
Vipers vs. Energy: Gm 2 (http://www.nba.com/video/channels/nba_tv/2011/04/28/20110427_rgv_iwa_recap.nba/index.html)
Very cool that Buzz was there....not sure how many college coaches travel to watch a former player in the DLeague. Also impressed that they had over 14k at the game.
Jerel's the focus of an ESPN Chicago blog: http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/colleges/post/_/id/2828/mcneals-risk-paying-off-in-quest-for-nba
First of all, accumlation statistics are just accumulation statistics. They speak to his durability and the consistency of his career. That is indeed something. But the reason he is the leading scorer, is because he played in the most games, and took the most shots in MU basketball history.
However, he was simply not a "great college basketball player." I mean, he was not even the best defender we had on that team (James) but because he got a lot of steals, people got the impression that he was some sort of defensive wizard.
The use of "computer numbers" is important because it takes emotion out of the equation. It also takes out the use of "accumulation statistics" that are generally around because a player has played more. They balance out the negative with the positives. I mean, my guess is that he is MU's all time turnover leader too. (I can't find it.)
Look, I am coming off as sounding way too negative. I think Jerel was a fine player...but I thought he was overated at the time and continue to do so. I thought Matthews was better, and in some aspects of the game, James too.
You can make the same argument about the Turnovers as you are trying to make about the points and other accolades
He played in more games and that's why he has more turnovers....I think it is a terrible argument, but I guess we just have to let our opinions differ.
I would like to see you rank MU's players in the past decade like jamailman did.
Here's mine:
Wade
McNeal
Novak
Matthews
Hayward
James
Diener
Butler
DJO
RJAX
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 09:58:09 AM
First of all, accumlation statistics are just accumulation statistics. They speak to his durability and the consistency of his career. That is indeed something. But the reason he is the leading scorer, is because he played in the most games, and took the most shots in MU basketball history.
However, he was simply not a "great college basketball player." I mean, he was not even the best defender we had on that team (James) but because he got a lot of steals, people got the impression that he was some sort of defensive wizard.
The use of "computer numbers" is important because it takes emotion out of the equation. It also takes out the use of "accumulation statistics" that are generally around because a player has played more. They balance out the negative with the positives. I mean, my guess is that he is MU's all time turnover leader too. (I can't find it.)
Look, I am coming off as sounding way too negative. I think Jerel was a fine player...but I thought he was overated at the time and continue to do so. I thought Matthews was better, and in some aspects of the game, James too.
Then take every MU player's best season of the last decade. McNeal's senior season was only surpassed by Wade. You can say Novak, Diener, and Hayward came close, but McNeal's was #2.
Quote from: Jamailman on April 28, 2011, 10:07:51 AM
Then take every MU player's best season of the last decade. McNeal's senior season was only surpassed by Wade. You can say Novak, Diener, and Hayward came close, but McNeal's was #2.
I thought Wes Matthews was better than Jerel in 2009. Better all around player, better rebounder, more efficient scorer. (Who almost matched Jerel in ppg by the way.)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 10:15:57 AM
I thought Wes Matthews was better than Jerel in 2009. Better all around player, better rebounder, more efficient scorer. (Who almost matched Jerel in ppg by the way.)
You also have to take into account that during that year, teams were focusing on stopping Jerel more as well.
and Wes is a bigger guy and played more of a 3, he should get more rebounds. ;)
How can you beat "accumulation statistics" into the ground and not acknowledge that it plays a role in the turnover numbers as well? Don't you think a guy who is a main scoring option for a good part of four years would turn the ball over more?
I'm with you on the steals/defense thing. Dominic was a far better defender. I'm not saying he didn't have faults. I still refer to the pull-up jumper straddling the three-point line as a "Jerel." But to dismiss his accomplishments because he played in a lot of games is ridiculous.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 28, 2011, 10:29:36 AM
How can you beat "accumulation statistics" into the ground and not acknowledge that it plays a role in the turnover numbers as well? Don't you think a guy who is a main scoring option for a good part of four years would turn the ball over more?
I'm with you on the steals/defense thing. Dominic was a far better defender. I'm not saying he didn't have faults. I still refer to the pull-up jumper straddling the three-point line as a "Jerel." But to dismiss his accomplishments because he played in a lot of games is ridiculous.
Dwight Buycks used to pull a lot of "Jerels"
Quote from: Jamailman on April 28, 2011, 09:50:22 AM
What more do people want from him?
Better efficiency ratings of course!
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 28, 2011, 10:33:10 AM
Better efficiency ratings of course!
Yeah, what does that get you?
http://kykernel.com/2011/04/03/butler-coach-brad-stevens-is-the-calm-during-the-storm/
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 28, 2011, 10:33:10 AM
Better efficiency ratings of course!
Use teal all you want, but that is *exactly* what I wanted from Jerel. More efficiency.
Quote from: MUfan12 on April 28, 2011, 10:29:36 AM
How can you beat "accumulation statistics" into the ground and not acknowledge that it plays a role in the turnover numbers as well? Don't you think a guy who is a main scoring option for a good part of four years would turn the ball over more?
I'm with you on the steals/defense thing. Dominic was a far better defender. I'm not saying he didn't have faults. I still refer to the pull-up jumper straddling the three-point line as a "Jerel." But to dismiss his accomplishments because he played in a lot of games is ridiculous.
I am dismissing them because I think they aren't as important as people make them out to be. (The reason I brought up TO is to show how deceiving they can be.)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 10:15:57 AM
I thought Wes Matthews was better than Jerel in 2009. Better all around player, better rebounder, more efficient scorer. (Who almost matched Jerel in ppg by the way.)
It's a bit ironic that you use statistical efficiency to support your claim earlier, and now you are using sort of "shoot from the hip" claims like "better all around player" "better rebounder" or "better defender" (James).
I mean, those are really just eye-test claims, which is fine, but I don't think you can trot out advanced stats like efficiency, and then mix in some stuff that is so subjective. I realize stats cannot tell the whole story, but it seems like you are cherry picking some stuff here.
To be honest, I think this thread is becoming more about semantics than it is about actual player performance.
I call Jerel "great". You call him "good". Doesn't really matter either way. Maybe your version of "good" is the same as my version of "great".
McNeal was the most infuriating/exciting player MU has had in a while.
His turnovers were a problem. However, the speed and aggressiveness of his defensive and offensive game made him good.
At the risk of a violent threadjack, can we compare him a little bit to good 'ol #4? Most TDs and most interceptions. Just sayin'.
I'll bite. Take a look at Jerel's senior year vs. Wade's junior year in the advanced statistics. Damn near close to even. And Jerel had better TO numbers. And Wade's junior year was probably the best season any MU player had that decade. In fact, if you compare Wade's two seasons to Jerel's final two seasons, they're still very close.
The majority of what people disliked about Jerel came when he was a freshman and sophomore. He improved tremendously and deserved every accolade he got by the time he left.
OK fine.... their senior years....
Wes had a higher offensive efficiency rating than Jerel....higher effective FG%...higher true shooting %...lower turnover rate...better offensive and defensive rebounding percentage...committed less fouls per 40...better free throw percentage and better two pt FG%.
Jerel had more steals and better 3 pt %.
Better???
Don't know if the vid was posted (I did see a poster mention it), but awesome to see Buzz at the game, giving a big hug to Jerel.
http://www.nba.com/dleague/video/2011/04/28/20110427rgviwarecapmov-1662912/index.html
That environment/atmosphere for NBDL game in Iowa, was pretty impressive.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 10:50:43 AM
OK fine.... their senior years....
Wes had a higher offensive efficiency rating than Jerel....higher effective FG%...higher true shooting %...lower turnover rate...better offensive and defensive rebounding percentage...committed less fouls per 40...better free throw percentage and better two pt FG%.
Jerel had more steals and better 3 pt %.
Better???
I love Wes too.
Maybe the better semantic question is: Would you call Wes a "great" college player?
If you say "no", then I get it. If you say "yes", then I'm lost. ;)
No I would not call Wes a "great college player."
Look, I don't want people to think I hated Jerel. I am glad that he is doing well and hopes he makes the NBA because he definately is a hard-worker. I just think he was a little overated as a senior. People were asking why people rag on MU's all time leading scorer...and I thought I would address it.
EDIT- Disregard. Didn't look deep enough into the numbers.
Wade was clearly more efficient than McNeal....the numbers say as much in pretty much every category. Why would I think he was overrated?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 11:10:28 AM
Wade was clearly more efficient than McNeal....the numbers say as much in pretty much every category. Why would I think he was overrated?
Hah. No reason to. I edited that last post. Didn't look deep enough into the other numbers.
Quote from: Jamailman on April 28, 2011, 09:50:22 AM
Jerel was an all-decade player at MU. If you can't appreciate the positives he brought, you're a spoiled fan.
In no particular order:
Wade
Diener
Novak
James
McNeal
Matthews
Hayward
Butler
RJax
and then.... (who do you put in the 10th slot? Maybe DJO for the year he had last year?)
Quote from: DJO's Pump Fake on April 28, 2011, 10:04:36 AM
I would like to see you rank MU's players in the past decade like jamailman did.
Here's mine:
Wade
McNeal
Novak
Matthews
Hayward
James
Diener
Butler
DJO
RJAX
Wow, people giving Novak a lot of credit for always being a #2-3 option at best and playing okay defense.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 11:02:40 AM
No I would not call Wes a "great college player."
Look, I don't want people to think I hated Jerel. I am glad that he is doing well and hopes he makes the NBA because he definately is a hard-worker. I just think he was a little overated as a senior. People were asking why people rag on MU's all time leading scorer...and I thought I would address it.
Fair enough. Like I said, I think this is probably more of a semantics debate around the word "great" vs "good".
I was happy to poke fun at myself for forgetting how bad a defensive play was vs. Nova, but you critics have to come back to realty staring with looking at these five names:
Dean Meminger
Jim Chones
Dwyane Wade
Butch Lee
Jerel McNeal
Almost 4000 players played Division 1 basketball in 2009, and at the end of the year Jerel McNeal was judged to be in the top 0.25% of them, one of the best 10, by sports writers across the country. The other four players listed are the only other players to ever be judged that good at the end of a college season.
Certainly I understand a Marquette fan arguing that Bo Ellis, Maurice Lucas, George Thompson and Earl Tatum SHOULD HAVE BEEN picked as one of the top 10 players in the country when they played, but to go the other way and argue not only that Jerel wasn't one of the best 10, but that he wasn't even great, is beyond me. Let's just say you believe you are much, much smarter than all the sports writers in the country at comparing Jerel to all the other players in the country, and you determine that he really was only the 40th best player in the country. Despite your harsh evaluation of Jerel, that would still make him one of the best 1% of all Division 1 players in America, which is great.
Almost 700 players have played for MU, and you simply cannot make a logical case that Jerel was not in the top 2% of all players in MU history - so if he wasn't great then we simply haven't had great players at Marquette.
I went to the NCAA tournament when Jerel was in street clothes against Michigan State and watched Marquette go over 9 minutes without scoring a basket. I went back the next two years and watched him score 30 against both Stanford and Missouri.
As for only being our all-time leading scorer because he shot a lot - obviously the great players shoot a lot and get to the line a lot.
Dwyane Wade put up a lot more shots and had a lot more turnovers his final year than Jerel, so you may as well argue that Wade only appeared to dominant because he shot so much. Obviously if you are one of the few teams in the country to have an All-American on your team you want him handling the ball and going to the hoop. Do you think Kevin O'Neill made a mistake in telling Tony Smith to start trying to score every time down the court after 3 years of sharing the ball while Marquette was drubbed game after game?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 10:50:43 AM
OK fine.... their senior years....
Wes had a higher offensive efficiency rating than Jerel....
Better???
Sultan - you can't use offensive efficiency to determine better player outside of using percentage of possessions used and minutes played. Here is Marquette's top player in offensive efficiency every year:
2011- Joe Fulce (several were better offensive players)
2010- Jimmy Butler (Hayward better)
2009- Jimmy Butler (hardly even played until DJs injury)
2008-Dan Fitzgerald (several better)
2007-Dan Fitzgerald (several better)
2006- Steve Novak (No. 1 in the country despite limited usage)
2005- Steve Novak (No. 3 in the country despite limited usage)
So you see, using that you end up saying Jimmy Butler got much worse once he had to take over, Steve Novak the same thing.
Ken Pomeroy always breaks down the leaders based on players who are used in 28% of possessions, then 24%, etc. because as a player becomes a go-to guy he has to try to score more and gets more defensive attention.
I emailed back and forth with Pomeroy last year on a formula I put together that combines % of possessions, % of minutes and offensive efficiency to calculate the actual impact each player has on the team and he really liked the formula, so I'm hoping that gets incorporated. It's a pretty complicated formula that he'd have to get into his system to work, but I'm pretty confident Jerel had a more positive statistical impact than Wesley their senior years.
Thanks, John. I have started about 5 different posts on this and deleted them all because I couldn't get them to flow right. And 1(in honor of the frequent cry of our players this year and as an alternative to +1) to everything you wrote.
bama...those are all fair points. But I am not using only offensive efficiency. There were a number of places where I thought Matthews was better. And also Mc Neal could obviously do things that you cannot measure better than Matthews. Break down a defense for instance.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 28, 2011, 12:18:10 PM
And also Mc Neal could obviously do things that you cannot measure better than Matthews. Break down a defense for instance.
Without McNeal, Buzz would be 0-3 vs. Bucky. Of course, there are other games that McNeal was able to breakdown a defense, but that UW game was amazing as there was nothing Bo/UW could do to stop Jerel from scoring.
Jerel turned it over too much and took some frustrating shots. Got it.
But the fact is that neither Crean nor Buzz could take him off the floor from the moment he arrived on campus to the moment he put in 30+ in a losing NCAA effort.
He like his fellow amigos will always lose points in "All time greats" conversations because they never got to the sweet 16, let alone beyond it.
I don't have a problem with people calling out the flaws in their games and naming the things not accomplished. Those are just the facts.
The problem comes in the way people go WAY overboard in saying they weren't great players. As a trio they put MU on the map in the Big East. No other class faced that challenge and no other class deserves that credit. They carried us from CUSA to the big leagues. And they did it with guts and class.
If Jerel's "all-time" numbers are inflated it's because his coaches, in the midst of nightly dogfights, couldn't bare to take him off the court. Ever.
If his first team All Big East and Second Team All American status was the result of being overrated, I'd like to see a lot more MU players get that kind of attention.
^ +1, well said.
In the 4th quarter of the finals, Jerel has 23 pts, 11 boards, 6 assists
Another huge night for Jerel ... RGV lost in the finals
http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20110429/RGVIWA/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp2041000303
It's all Scheyer's (4-13 FG, 2-10 3pt) fault!