I saw one Lasalle game his freshman year (I think it was against Temple or similar competition) and Murray had a great game, both offensively and defensively. He looked more like a Senior big man and not a freshman.
He is a sophomore and is transferring from Lasalle. Apparently, according this article we are pursuing him pretty aggressively.
http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-01/news/29370778_1_explorers-coach-john-giannini-source-aaric-murray
He sounds good. That would be a wonderful scenario.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=46199
Great stat line. Would be a nice get for sure I think. 2.9bpg too and one game with 9 blocks!
Didn't we look at Murray initially when he was in HS? I seem to recall that we were considering and being considered in late summer/early fall of '09.
Quote from: MUMac on April 02, 2011, 04:45:43 PM
Didn't we look at Murray initially when he was in HS? I seem to recall that we were considering and being considered in late summer/early fall of '09.
I think I noticed us on his scout profile, so probably did look at him back then.
Quote from: MUMac on April 02, 2011, 04:45:43 PM
Didn't we look at Murray initially when he was in HS? I seem to recall that we were considering and being considered in late summer/early fall of '09.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Aaric-Murray-79213
Heres something.
The only bad thing is that he would have sit out for one year tying up a scholarship.
This would be a great get.
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on April 02, 2011, 04:37:24 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=46199
Great stat line. Would be a nice get for sure I think. 2.9bpg too and one game with 9 blocks!
For sure you think? Which one is it?
Quote from: msbjim on April 02, 2011, 05:53:03 PM
The only bad thing is that he would have sit out for one year tying up a scholarship.
Or we could get a freshman who would be tying up a scholarship sitting on the bench anyway.
Interesting how we keep going head to head with WVU on so many people.
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on April 02, 2011, 08:17:47 PM
smartass
It *was* a surprisingly poorly crafted sentence for sure I think.
Some articles referred to soem attitudinal concerns with Murray. Not saying that is a problem (see Robert Jackson), but I suspect Buzz would do some investigation first. Might be a time where Buzz' coaching networking is a nice advantage.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 02, 2011, 08:20:08 PM
It *was* a surprisingly poorly crafted sentence for sure I think.
for sure, I think you're right.
Quote from: downtown85 on April 02, 2011, 04:19:31 PMI saw one Lasalle game his freshman year (I think it was against Temple or similar competition) and Murray had a great game, both offensively and defensively. He looked more like a Senior big man and not a freshman.
From watching him, do you think he would be more of a center here at Marquette, or does he have the quickness and offensive acumen to be a face-up 4 on offense? I love what it seems like he brings, but if we had Otule, Gardner, and Murray all as centers in 2 years, that'd be incredibly congested when it comes to PT.
EDIT: My lord, noticing a few more stats. His points and rebounds are great, but he also shoots 75% free throws and 35% from 3. I love the look of this kid...if he could play the 4, that'd be an awesome frontcourt with Otule and Gardner rotating at the 5.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 02, 2011, 08:34:23 PM
From watching him, do you think he would be more of a center here at Marquette, or does he have the quickness and offensive acumen to be a face-up 4 on offense? I love what it seems like he brings, but if we had Otule, Gardner, and Murray all as centers in 2 years, that'd be incredibly congested when it comes to PT.
EDIT: My lord, noticing a few more stats. His points and rebounds are great, but he also shoots 75% free throws and 35% from 3. I love the look of this kid...if he could play the 4, that'd be an awesome frontcourt with Otule and Gardner rotating at the 5.
Murray would immediately be the #1 center. I suspect the best option would be Murray at the 5 and someone else (WIlliams / Wilson / Anderson) as a 4, as opposed to Gardner or Otule plus Murray.
I would really like us to get a transfer with the last scholarship. 13 players do not get to play regularly. I rather have a player that has to sit vs another player that is going to be unhappy not playing.
One other bonus with a guy like Murray is how much he would help Otule and Gardner. Playing against a player like that in practice could really force them to elevate their games.
This would be a HUGE get. Hope Buzz & co. can seal the deal.
Sounds like a nice power forward to take over from Crowder! This would give us the biggest front line
since the Wade era, it would be a nice get! Love transfers, as they learn the system, and Todd Smith
gets to work with them for a full year.
In looking at our competition for Murray, OK State would currently have only one 4 or 5 on their roster by the year he'd be eligible, so that could be problematic. On the other hand, the article states that Murray enjoys the academic side of college, so that should tip the balance in our favor. Plus, we're in a conference where his family could regularly see him play.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 02, 2011, 08:34:23 PM
From watching him, do you think he would be more of a center here at Marquette, or does he have the quickness and offensive acumen to be a face-up 4 on offense?
The game where I saw him, he was playing the 5. He was playing more of the traditional post up type game. He didn't show his face up game to my recollection. However, it was early in his freshman season and I remember thinking to myself, "legitimate bigs always take two or three years to develop or they go to UNC or Kentucky or other big name program if they are good enought to contribute right away, how the heck did Lasalle land this stud?"
No chance. The Philly pipeline has been closed.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 03, 2011, 08:06:51 AM
No chance. The Philly pipeline has been closed.
Are you referring to the Newbill fiasco?!!?
Quote from: willie warrior on April 03, 2011, 10:33:33 AM
Are you referring to the Newbill fiasco?!!?
NO. He is referring to the other 5 guys we have had on our roster from Philly since Buzz has taken over. ::)
I like this idea. Wow would this be quite the rotation of big men in 2 years (Murray and Otule as Seniors, and Gardner as a Junior).
He would make a great addition to the crushingly vacated 2 spot last year.
Quote from: mikem91288 on April 03, 2011, 11:04:13 AM
I like this idea. Wow would this be quite the rotation of big men in 2 years (Murray and Otule as Seniors, and Gardner as a Junior).
Murray would be a redshirt junior in 2 years. He has 2 years of eligibility still. He would need to sit out next year and would have eligibility for 12-13 and 13-14 seasons.
Quote from: downtown85 on April 03, 2011, 12:41:30 PM
Murray would be a redshirt junior in 2 years. He has 2 years of eligibility still. He would need to sit out next year and would have eligibility for 12-13 and 13-14 seasons.
Don't know much about Murray other than he has good numbers for a soph big guy.
I would think hard about the logjam he would create at the 5 however, unless one of those guys move to PF. Then that would be awesome, having all those guys there.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 03, 2011, 04:20:11 PMDon't know much about Murray other than he has good numbers for a soph big guy.
I would think hard about the logjam he would create at the 5 however, unless one of those guys move to PF. Then that would be awesome, having all those guys there.
I've thought about this too. However, Aaric Murray is pretty much Marquette's dream come true. A 6'10", top-40 big man. He's already considered an NBA prospect and two solid years in the Big East would probably ensure we put a legitimate 5 into the league, something we've been dreaming about for years, if only to get future 5-star big men to look at us as a springboard to the next level.
Would it be worth sacrificing the minutes of Otule and Gardner in exchange for having a legitimate 30 mpg dominant big man? If it meant that in 2012-13 Murray saw 28 mpg while both Otule and Gardner saw 8 mpg (occasional overlap) would it be worth it? Or if Gardner only played 10-12 mpg as a senior backing up a 32 mpg Murray? I love both Otule and DG, but the idea of that dream center, especially with 2 years of eligibility (instead of the one we got from R-Jax) and a stacked roster around him sounds like the kind of thing that could propel us from high-major to perennial top-20 team.
I think if Gardner conditioning improves, he will be a power forward.
Quote from: bilsu on April 03, 2011, 05:34:39 PM
I think if Gardner conditioning improves, he will be a power forward.
He is not quick or fast enough to be a forward. He is a back to the basket player.
Quote from: bilsu on April 03, 2011, 05:34:39 PM
I think if Gardner conditioning improves, he will be a power forward.
Agreed. I have always thought that.
I initially wondered why Buzz wouldn't try to play them both at the same time until I saw how quickly they both liked to pick up fouls. I think Gardner could be an extremely muscular and powerful PF if he works hard enough and has the idea to be that. It would be his best bet if he wanted to take his game to the next level.
Power forwards don't need to be quick or fast. He takes up space, he doesn't need that speed if you other guys that have that speed. There may be match-up problems but I don't think the problem would be MU's.
Gardner is not a 4.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 03, 2011, 06:19:15 PM
Gardner is not a 4.
Gardner drove the entire floor, did a spin-move in the lane to shake a defender and dunked the ball in the Pro-Am.
That being said, he has a long way to go before he can move enough off the ball to be an effective 4.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 03, 2011, 06:30:23 PMGardner drove the entire floor, did a spin-move in the lane to shake a defender and dunked the ball in the Pro-Am.
That being said, he has a long way to go before he can move enough off the ball to be an effective 4.
Certainly not suited for the 4, but maybe he can solve our point guard depth issues.
Agreed that he has a long way to go. As Mac mentioned, he's a back-to-the-basket player. He doesn't have the game of a face-up player, which is why Crowder or Williams are still better suited to play the 4. Even if he drops 50 pounds of fat and adds 20 pounds of muscle, will a 6'9", 260-pound Gardner be suited to play power forward? It's probably beyond the best-case scenario, and my guess is that he's still more suited for the center role than he is for the 4.
Quite simply, if we bring in Murray, Otule and Gardner are pretty much relegated to bench roles from the moments Murray steps on the court, unless Murray can play the face-up role. I think Murray makes us a better team, but he doesn't end our need for a face-up power forward, because neither Otule nor Gardner have shown any acumen for playing that role.
If Murray comes, Buzz should consider redshirting Gardner. It would be odd to sit after Freshman and Sophomore year. But, another year to get in shape would be very, very good for him.
Where does it say this cat has the hots for MU?
I'm figurin' that last schollie will go to some dude that Buzz pulls out his ass.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 03, 2011, 07:06:06 PM
Where does it say this cat has the hots for MU?
I'm figurin' that last schollie will go to some dude that Buzz pulls out his ass.
MU was one of his finalists before he chose LaSalle the first time around--and Marquette was included in the story linked in the first post:
"The source said Murray is likely to make his first official recruiting visit to Oklahoma State when the recruiting period opens next week. The source also said Oklahoma State,
Marquette, DePaul and West Virginia have been Murray's most aggressive suitors so far, but that calls have also come from Kansas, St. John's and West Virginia, among others."
Again, where does it say he now is showing interest in Marquette?
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 03, 2011, 07:03:21 PM
If Murray comes, Buzz should consider redshirting Gardner. It would be odd to sit after Freshman and Sophomore year. But, another year to get in shape would be very, very good for him.
1)If Murray does come, it would mean he would have to sit out this coming year, which would be Gardner's Sophomore year, so DG wouldn't sit on the bench in street clothes next to Murray.....in street clothes.
2)There is NO way on God's green earth that Davante is red-shirting this coming season. No offense but that's the silliest thing I've heard yet. Getting in shape is something he needs to do during the summer, not taking an entire season off. He was one of our most effective inside men THIS season, as a FRESHMAN. You want him to ride the pines and watch the 2011-12 season in street clothes?!?!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 03, 2011, 07:17:23 PMAgain, where does it say he now is showing interest in Marquette?
It's in the opening post, which links to an article dated April 1, 2011.
Quote from: philly.comThe source said Murray is likely to make his first official recruiting visit to Oklahoma State when the recruiting period opens next week. The source also said Oklahoma State, Marquette, DePaul and West Virginia have been Murray's most aggressive suitors so far, but that calls have also come from Kansas, St. John's and West Virginia, among others.
Here's a link to the article: http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-01/news/29370778_1_explorers-coach-john-giannini-source-aaric-murray
Right, MU has interest. That is well understood.
Why is Murray leaving LaSalle?
Quote from: msbjim on April 03, 2011, 08:55:03 PM
Why is Murray leaving LaSalle?
They're not using him the way he needs to be used, so he's moving on. La Salle didn't want to play the game right, so now he's going to watch them lose every game. That's just how it works.
Quote from: warriors1991 on April 03, 2011, 07:55:03 PM
1)If Murray does come, it would mean he would have to sit out this coming year, which would be Gardner's Sophomore year, so DG wouldn't sit on the bench in street clothes next to Murray.....in street clothes.
2)There is NO way on God's green earth that Davante is red-shirting this coming season. No offense but that's the silliest thing I've heard yet. Getting in shape is something he needs to do during the summer, not taking an entire season off. He was one of our most effective inside men THIS season, as a FRESHMAN. You want him to ride the pines and watch the 2011-12 season in street clothes?!?!
I didn't say he should red shirt next to Murray this season. I said after his freshman and soph year if Murray is really this good. Otule as a senior and this kid Murray would get all the time at the 5. It sounds like Murray is a 30 min player and give Otule the other 10 mins. Develop Gardner another year and have 2 more years with him.
Looks like a Robert Jackson type.
No, jackson was a stud underneath but hardly ever blocked a shot. Murray blocks 3 a game, and blocked 9 in one game - so he almost topped jackson's whole seasonin one night.
I LOVE jackson, but really not the same type of big man.
On why he is leaving, actually they were hyped for him to be joined by nebraskas big forward to have a dominate big duo. The nebraska guy got an indecent exposure arrest though and lasalle wouldn't take him. I think that made murray think he was looking at 15-18 again.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 03, 2011, 07:17:23 PM
Again, where does it say he now is showing interest in Marquette?
You could have asked the same for the recruitment of Butler, DJO, and Crowder...
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 03, 2011, 09:30:44 PM
I didn't say he should red shirt next to Murray this season. I said after his freshman and soph year if Murray is really this good. Otule as a senior and this kid Murray would get all the time at the 5. It sounds like Murray is a 30 min player and give Otule the other 10 mins. Develop Gardner another year and have 2 more years with him.
They're not going to redshirt him then either...nor should they.
Let me expand on this. You don't want to tie up too many scholarships on people who are already here. Transfers are one thing, but Ox is here and in the system already. By redshirting him, he likely gets marginally better by experience, but it's not as though he is going to make great leaps and bounds. That will likely happen more *this* upcoming season as he has a full six months to get in shape.
Furthermore, what player might you be foregoing by tying up Ox's scholarship for an additional year?
Agreed. While mu was not listed as one of the few he was interested in from the one source, I can't believe mu would be listed as one of his most aggressive suitors if he had simply told coaches he had no interest.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 07:38:19 AM
They're not going to redshirt him then either...nor should they.
Let me expand on this. You don't want to tie up too many scholarships on people who are already here. Transfers are one thing, but Ox is here and in the system already. By redshirting him, he likely gets marginally better by experience, but it's not as though he is going to make great leaps and bounds. That will likely happen more *this* upcoming season as he has a full six months to get in shape.
Furthermore, what player might you be foregoing by tying up Ox's scholarship for an additional year?
Exactly. Too many posters on this board think that red-shirting is always a good option. There's nothing wrong with having depth.
If Murray or Gardner could develop a consistent 12-15 foot shot, there's no reason not to think that they couldn't play along side each other or Otule for a few stretches each game. When they get winded, send in EWill and the other big for a completely different unit without losing much size or effectiveness (in theory). Defensively, MU could set up in a 3-2 zone with Otule and Murray underneath and Blue, Junior and Wilson gambling for steals on the perimeter knowing that they have 2 shot-blockers behind them to protect the rim.
Exactly. No one ever said that we should have redshirted Scott Merritt in 2002-03 so that we could have two years of him once Jackson graduated.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 08:50:58 AM
Exactly. No one ever said that we should have redshirted Scott Merritt in 2002-03 so that we could have two years of him once Jackson graduated.
Redshirting Otule might end up being a great thing for our program. Redshirting Barro and Burke would have made huge differences. Barro on the Amigos' team when they were seniors changes things.
For most of the year, Gardner could not keep up. He was very bad many times, but had a few nice moves in the tournament. I think he could use a year more than anyone. You don't redshirt everyone, but Gardner is a prime example.
Didn't Buzz say that if Otule and Fulce had been healthy all year he would redshirted Gardner?
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 04, 2011, 08:57:14 AM
Redshirting Otule might end up being a great thing for our program. Redshirting Barro and Burke would have made huge differences. Barro on the Amigos' team when they were seniors changes things.
For most of the year, Gardner could not keep up. He was very bad many times, but had a few nice moves in the tournament. I think he could use a year more than anyone. You don't redshirt everyone, but Gardner is a prime example.
Didn't Buzz say that if Otule and Fulce had been healthy all year he would redshirted Gardner?
Do the rules allow to redhirt him if he already has had a medical redshirt?
Redshirting Otule is ridiculous. I do not believe there is that big an upside for him.
HIs handicap will always be a problem, he will improve slightly the next 2 years but
he is not the real answer in the middle. Every time he plays against somebody his
own size he has trouble. Need to recruit a big in the next few years. Gardner really
on the defensive side has a long way to go. For the program, he would be the one
to redshirt as he has a much bigger upside. To do that, you need to recruit another
big but that will probably not happen. Need a power forward to take over for Crowder
after next year, that is why a transfer like Wilson would be great.
Quote from: BCHoopster on April 04, 2011, 09:36:08 AM
Redshirting Otule is ridiculous. I do not believe there is that big an upside for him.
HIs handicap will always be a problem, he will improve slightly the next 2 years but
he is not the real answer in the middle. Every time he plays against somebody his
own size he has trouble. Need to recruit a big in the next few years. Gardner really
on the defensive side has a long way to go. For the program, he would be the one
to redshirt as he has a much bigger upside. To do that, you need to recruit another
big but that will probably not happen. Need a power forward to take over for Crowder
after next year, that is why a transfer like Wilson would be great.
No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing. I agree with Malone that IF MU did land Murray.....there could be some real value in Devante redshirting for the 2012-2013 season..both for DG personally and the program.
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 09:46:54 AM
No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing. I agree with Malone that IF MU did land Murray.....there could be some real value in Devante redshirting for the 2012-2013 season..both for DG personally and the program.
Why the hell would you red shirt Gardner? He made huge strides during the season. Telling or asking him to not play next year would be totally a slap in the face. If it was me, I'd be out the door.
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 09:46:54 AM
No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing. I agree with Malone that IF MU did land Murray.....there could be some real value in Devante redshirting for the 2012-2013 season..both for DG personally and the program.
Redshirting your best interior offensive player, especially in what would be his junior season, would be impossibly stupid.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2011, 10:03:00 AM
Why the hell would you red shirt Gardner? He made huge strides during the season. Telling or asking him to not play next year would be totally a slap in the face. If it was me, I'd be out the door.
+1
DG would have to accept the redshirt - and I doubt he would, or should. If he continues to improve next year, he might leave anyway if his minutes were severely reduced. I could easily see him transferring if the options were redshirt or virtually no playing time.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 04, 2011, 09:33:57 AM
Do the rules allow to redhirt him if he already has had a medical redshirt?
There is no such thing as a medical redshirt.
The question would be whether or not he could get an additional, or sixth year, on his 'clock' (you have 5 years to exhaust your 4 years of competition)...
In a situation where the medical hardship waiver was granted for his 'first sophomore' year such as this case... it would be unlikely that he'd receive an additional year of eligibility because a school chose to redshirt him. And you wouldn't have a final answer until the distant future
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 09:46:54 AM
No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing. I agree with Malone that IF MU did land Murray.....there could be some real value in Devante redshirting for the 2012-2013 season..both for DG personally and the program.
He didn't redshirt last year. He was injured last year.
And I don't think it was good for our program at all that he missed last year. How valuable could he have been on what was arguably a better team? We had Lazar playing the center position most of the year because Otule was injured. We could have been a hell of a lot better with a frontline of Lazar, JFB and CO. Instead, we had to deal with that three guard rotation all year long.
It's almost like people *want* people around for a fifth year because they feel that they will be more valuable three years from now, than what they can do *right now.* How do we know this?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 10:44:18 AM
He didn't redshirt last year. He was injured last year.
And I don't think it was good for our program at all that he missed last year. How valuable could he have been on what was arguably a better team? We had Lazar playing the center position most of the year because Otule was injured. We could have been a hell of a lot better with a frontline of Lazar, JFB and CO. Instead, we had to deal with that three guard rotation all year long.
It's almost like people *want* people around for a fifth year because they feel that they will be more valuable three years from now, than what they can do *right now.* How do we know this?
Otule did redshirt last year and that is why he has 2 more years left. It is too bad that we did not have a big man or a bench for that matter last year. It was an amazing coaching job to do as well as we did. He really was not any good either his first two years. Now, he is at least competent to have out there.
Maybe people were so shocked to have a big guy who could actually make a move last year for the first time in years. Gardner was all right, but not a world beater. He is still a project. Everyone is talking about the talent the kid has, so why not let his body catch up to it? He is not like Merritt who was starting next to Jackson and ready to contribute.
If Gardner's feet get quick enough that he could play the 4 next to Murray if he came, then we will be a very special program. However, I do not see it happening. It will very likely be up to Erik Williams and Jamil Wilson to defend the 4 spot in 2 years. Those guys will thrive in the same way Lazar did.
Big men do not grow on trees. We should know that by now. If we can develop Gardner another year, it would be worth it. Buzz would have to convince him it is for the best.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 10:44:18 AM
He didn't redshirt last year. He was injured last year.
Isn't that called a "medical redshirt?" I am not sure about all the ins and outs of NCAA regulations but I think that you get one redshirt year (medical or otherwise) over the eligibility timeframe of a player. In other words, I'm pretty sure CO can't redshirt anymore in his college career even if he is injured or wants to transfer.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 04, 2011, 10:55:28 AM
Otule did redshirt last year and that is why he has 2 more years left. It is too bad that we did not have a big man or a bench for that matter last year. It was an amazing coaching job to do as well as we did. He really was not any good either his first two years. Now, he is at least competent to have out there.
How do we know he wouldn't have been good last year? He played three games before he was injured. He could have meant a great deal to that team.
So what people are suggesting is that we redshirt Ox, not next year, but in 2012-13 to save him for the 2014-15 season? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Quote from: downtown85 on April 04, 2011, 10:56:55 AM
Isn't that called a "medical redshirt?" I am not sure about all the ins and outs of NCAA regulations but I think that you get one redshirt year (medical or otherwise) over the eligibility timeframe of a player. In other words, I'm pretty sure CO can't redshirt anymore in his college career even if he is injured or wants to transfer.
Some players have been granted additional years of eligibility if they have used their regular redshirt, then miss an entire year due to injury.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2011, 10:03:00 AM
Why the hell would you red shirt Gardner? He made huge strides during the season. Telling or asking him to not play next year would be totally a slap in the face. If it was me, I'd be out the door.
We aren't talking about next year..we are talking about the hypothetical of IF MU lands Aaric Murray...Murray would have to sit out the 2011-2012 season...so DG plays NEXT year...see where he is at. But in 2012-2013 you would have Otule, Murray, and Gardner (with Otule being a senior, Murray a Junior, Gardner a Junior)...so highly unlikely there are enought minutes for all 3 to play in 2012-2013. Ask DG to redshirt..and now he is a class behind Murray.
It by no means is idiotic. And of course we all can see Devante's potential and made great strides this season...I've said many times since watching him in MU Madness that he very likely will be better than Robert Jackson was at MU -(which at the time was ridiculed by many), as has been my Buzz mancrush...Hmmm.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 11:03:41 AM
Some players have been granted additional years of eligibility if they have used their regular redshirt, then miss an entire year due to injury.
Do we really care about the technicality of if Otule sitting out was a "redshirt" or being granted an additional year of eligibility? The end result is the same....right?
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 11:14:09 AM
Do we really care about the technicality of if Otule sitting out was a "redshirt" or being granted an additional year of eligibility? The end result is the same....right?
Sure! And when someone is academically suspended for a year, we can call it an "academic redshirt." And when someone goes to jail for the incident in Humphrey Hall, we can call it a "sexual redshirt."
The possibilities are endless!!!
(Two things that have the same results are not always the same thing.)
Cripes. Otule didn't flippin redshirt.
If you did redshirt him in 2011-12 or 2012-13 in all likelihood he wouldn't receive an additional year on his clock (it's not an issue of an additional year of eligibility - he's got 2 years left of eligibility because of the medical hardship waiver... but he's only got 2 years left on his 5-year clock). "Hi, please give us another year on his clock because we want to redshirt him" probably isn't going to work real well. Now, if he had another major injury and was unable to play for a year, then he could probably get another year on the clock.. but, an additional year being granted due to the school's choice isn't going to happen because sitting him out is not out of the kid's or school's control. It would be their decision.
Otule ain't redshirting. Hasn't ever done it and won't ever do it.
You cats are mixing up separate things. They are each very different:
Redshirt = didn't play
Hardship waiver = doesn't count a year of competition even though the student-athlete played during the year
Five-Year Rule waiver = gets more than 5 years once the clock starts due to circumstances beyond the student-athlete and institution's control.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 11:01:24 AM
How do we know he wouldn't have been good last year? He played three games before he was injured. He could have meant a great deal to that team.
So what people are suggesting is that we redshirt Ox, not next year, but in 2012-13 to save him for the 2014-15 season? That makes no sense whatsoever.
MU should redshirt DJO and Crowder next season so that Jones and EWill can get more PT. Then in the 2012-2013 season, all 4 of those players will have gotten a lot of experience and will be ready to contribute...but not right away. Jones and EWill would then redshirt in order to get them even more ready for the season after DJO and Crowder graduate! Then Wilson should fake an injury to see if he can get a hardship waiver and a 6th year of eligibility which would prevent him from taking PT from the fresh-off-a-redshirt EWill and would also give Wilson a second year of not playing competitive games which would obviously make him a better player! It's a perfect plan! ::)
Seriously, what's going on here? MU fans have apparently forgotten what it's like to have depth. FYI - it's a good thing.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 11:01:24 AM
How do we know he wouldn't have been good last year? He played three games before he was injured. He could have meant a great deal to that team.
So what people are suggesting is that we redshirt Ox, not next year, but in 2012-13 to save him for the 2014-15 season? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Otule could have made a difference, but he really was not polished his first two years. His redshirt ideally would have been his freshman year, but things did not work out that way after Mbakwe left. He was uncoordinated, but now he has grown into his body.
And Otule is not the one who should have been out there next to Lazar in 2009-10. It should have been Burke in my opinion. The program would have been better off redshirting Barro his freshman season as well. He should have been out there with the Amigos against Missouri.
With Marcus Jackson, Grimm, Lott, and Kinsella already there, playing Barro and Burke as freshman was stupid in hindsight. Neither were that good their freshman year, and only Barro was competent as a soph. The program is better if they had developed another year.
It assumes that Murray is a beast who is going to play 30 mins/game. Why sit Gardner for an entire year if he has all this talent that people keep talking about? I think Gardner could be a double figures scorer with enough touches. However, he is very unpolished now and Buzz cannot justify playing him the minutes to get that due to his conditioning and defense.
Until we start getting players of Murray's caliber consistently, I say develop those bigs. It is odd to do it as a junior. But, this is the last consequence of the coaching change.
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 11:09:00 AM
We aren't talking about next year..we are talking about the hypothetical of IF MU lands Aaric Murray...Murray would have to sit out the 2011-2012 season...so DG plays NEXT year...see where he is at. But in 2012-2013 you would have Otule, Murray, and Gardner (with Otule being a senior, Murray a Junior, Gardner a Junior)...so highly unlikely there are enought minutes for all 3 to play in 2012-2013. Ask DG to redshirt..and now he is a class behind Murray.
It by no means is idiotic. And of course we all can see Devante's potential and made great strides this season...I've said many times since watching him in MU Madness that he very likely will be better than Robert Jackson was at MU -(which at the time was ridiculed by many), as has been my Buzz mancrush...Hmmm.
Why on earth would Davante Gardner want to play two seasons and then sit out a year? Especially if he's going to be better than Robert Jackson (who was better than Aaric Murray)? What sense does it make for Gardner or MU to have the team's best post player on the bench in street clothes?
And under this proposed scheme, what if Otule goes down midseason - not exactly an unlikely proposition given his history - after you've already redshirted Gardner? Do you lift the redshirt in January, wasting a half a season for no good purpose? Try to get by the rest of the season with one post player (who fouled out six times this season and was in foul trouble several other times)?
It would make little (read: no) sense to do this.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2011, 10:03:00 AM
Why the hell would you red shirt Gardner? He made huge strides during the season. Telling or asking him to not play next year would be totally a slap in the face. If it was me, I'd be out the door.
I agree Hards. If that happened, I would take my redshirt to another school. Gardner is capable for starting at a number of schools, and there would be a bundle of those schools ready to take him--probably a number far closer to home. Now if he shows up next fall having ballooned up, that would be something different. I do not expect that to happen.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 04, 2011, 11:22:29 AM
Why on earth would Davante Gardner want to play two seasons and then sit out a year? Especially if he's going to be better than Robert Jackson (who was better than Aaric Murray)? What sense does it make for Gardner or MU to have the team's best post player on the bench in street clothes?
And under this proposed scheme, what if Otule goes down midseason - not exactly an unlikely proposition given his history - after you've already redshirted Gardner? Do you lift the redshirt in January, wasting a half a season for no good purpose? Try to get by the rest of the season with one post player (who fouled out six times this season and was in foul trouble several other times)?
It would make little (read: no) sense to do this.
I'm not saying Devante would WANT to redshirt - that's obvious - every kid is always going to want to play. But..with Otule and Murray in the mix...it is very unlikely he'd see many minutes at the 5. Now, if he can develop into a 4 - then no worries on the redshirt...as there will be minutes available at the "4" in 2012-2013. Murray is practically a 5-star big who has put up some pretty darn good numbers and posseses a skill set MU has not seen in a big man in some time...DG would not beat him out for minutes at the 5 in 2012-2013.
Considering the lack of talented big men at MU in the past...there is NO sense in letting a very talented guy like DG burn a year of eligibility in a season where it is unlikely he'd see a lot of PT (2012-2013). Plus with DG's body type..it takes longer to re-shape such a body...and thus why it could be personally valuable to him and his long term goals/pro prospects..
Quote from: willie warrior on April 04, 2011, 11:24:02 AM
I agree Hards. If that happened, I would take my redshirt to another school. Gardner is capable for starting at a number of schools, and there would be a bundle of those schools ready to take him--probably a number far closer to home. Now if he shows up next fall having ballooned up, that would be something different. I do not expect that to happen.
So he transfers elsewhere out of bitterness..and sits out a year anyway?? What does he gain? MU would likely be a STACKED team in 2013-2014 when he'd return to eligibility...
J Wilson, Jones, Blue, Mayo, Anderson, Murray, Gardner, D Wilson - that's 8 guys who would have 4,3,3,2,2,4,4,2 years of experience in the MU program (or La Salle+MU for Murray) Talk about a strong team..wow..
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 11:35:57 AM
So he transfers elsewhere out of bitterness..and sits out a year anyway?? What does he gain? MU would likely be a STACKED team in 2013-2014 when he'd return to eligibility...
J Wilson, Jones, Blue, Mayo, Anderson, Murray, Gardner, D Wilson - that's 8 guys who would have 4,3,3,2,2,4,4,2 years of experience in the MU program (or La Salle+MU for Murray) Talk about a strong team..wow..
With all those 2s and 4s, shouldn't someone redshirt?
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 11:35:57 AM
So he transfers elsewhere out of bitterness..and sits out a year anyway?? What does he gain? MU would likely be a STACKED team in 2013-2014 when he'd return to eligibility...
J Wilson, Jones, Blue, Mayo, Anderson, Murray, Gardner, D Wilson - that's 8 guys who would have 4,3,3,2,2,4,4,2 years of experience in the MU program (or La Salle+MU for Murray) Talk about a strong team..wow..
How is it stacked? Lets see, Wilson, not sure how good, Jones, what has he proved, Blue, can not shoot, Gardner, long way to go and
then the three freshman, who knows how they will fit or even can play?
The next two years are much more promising. If Butler and Anderson can take up the slack for Jimmy Butler, they should be improved as
everybody else should be slightly better. The following year, might be a down year losing DJ and Crowder. The last 2 scholarships available
are key for that year, if they get Murray it just got stronger. Otherwise, I see a lot of question marks.
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 11:31:12 AM
I'm not saying Devante would WANT to redshirt - that's obvious - every kid is always going to want to play. But..with Otule and Murray in the mix...it is very unlikely he'd see many minutes at the 5. Now, if he can develop into a 4 - then no worries on the redshirt...as there will be minutes available at the "4" in 2012-2013. Murray is practically a 5-star big who has put up some pretty darn good numbers and posseses a skill set MU has not seen in a big man in some time...DG would not beat him out for minutes at the 5 in 2012-2013.
So, wait .... Davante Gardner will be better than Robert Jackson, but has no chance of playing with Aaric Murray and Chris Otule on the roster? Hmmm.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2011, 11:39:39 AM
With all those 2s and 4s, shouldn't someone redshirt?
If they are project-type players, then yes. If they are skilled players who Buzz has a history of replacing, then no.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 04, 2011, 11:18:32 AM
Cripes. Otule didn't flippin redshirt.
If you did redshirt him in 2011-12 or 2012-13 in all likelihood he wouldn't receive an additional year on his clock (it's not an issue of an additional year of eligibility - he's got 2 years left of eligibility because of the medical hardship waiver... but he's only got 2 years left on his 5-year clock). "Hi, please give us another year on his clock because we want to redshirt him" probably isn't going to work real well. Now, if he had another major injury and was unable to play for a year, then he could probably get another year on the clock.. but, an additional year being granted due to the school's choice isn't going to happen because sitting him out is not out of the kid's or school's control. It would be their decision.
Otule ain't redshirting. Hasn't ever done it and won't ever do it.
You cats are mixing up separate things. They are each very different:
Redshirt = didn't play
Hardship waiver = doesn't count a year of competition even though the student-athlete played during the year
Five-Year Rule waiver = gets more than 5 years once the clock starts due to circumstances beyond the student-athlete and institution's control.
I am not sure of the technicality of Otule's situation, but the point is that he has two more years left, correct? He will be at MU for 5 years?
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 09:46:54 AM
No one said to redshirt Otule - the poster was stating that Otule red shirting LAST YEAR turned out to be a great thing.
It wasn't a great thing--it was a terrible thing.
First, If Otule had played last year, the depth issue on the 2009-10 team would not have been as much of an issue, Hayward wouldn't have spent the year playing out of position, and we would have had a serviceable center in our lineup. Its inconceivable that we were a better team
without Otule. With Otule, we would have been a better team in 2009-10--how much better? Who knows. Maybe we don't run out of gas against Washington, then easily top New Mexico and make the Sweet 16.
Plus, Otule would have come into THIS year with an additional full season of experience, making him more valuable to the team in 2010-11. Maybe a couple more wins in conference? Maybe another NCAA win?
Not only was it not a 'great thing' that Otule redshirtted--it probably harmed us in both 2010 and 2011.
Finally, having Otule around another year in 2012-13 will delay by a year Buzz's ability to leverage his newly enhanced recruiting capability. The Sweet 16 appearance and new contract will help him upgrade the type of player he can land.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 04, 2011, 12:07:45 PM
It wasn't a great thing--it was a terrible thing.
First, If Otule had played last year, the depth issue on the 2009-10 team would not have been as much of an issue, Hayward wouldn't have spent the year playing out of position, and we would have had a serviceable center in our lineup. Its inconceivable that we were a better without Otule. With Otule, we would have been a better team in 2009-10--how much better? Who knows. Maybe we don't run out of gas against Washington, then easily top New Mexico and make the Sweet 16.
Plus, Otule would have come into THIS year with an additional full season of experience, making him more valuable to the team in 2010-11. Maybe a couple more wins in conference? Maybe another NCAA win?
Not only was it not a 'great thing' that Otule redshirtted--it probably harmed us in both 2010 and 2011.
Finally, having Otule around another year in 2012-13 will delay by a year Buzz's ability to leverage his newly enhanced recruiting capability. The Sweet 16 appearance and new contract will help him upgrade the type of player he can land.
It was no fun having no depth last year. I think Burke should have been the one out there as a fifth year person. Clark and McMorrow's situations contributed even more to it, not to mention Mbakwe. Otule is a big man project. He was brutal in his short stints during his first two seasons. He was not coordinated enough to play quite yet. He was not ready until this season. Why rush him out there when he was not ready? It is not his fault that the three guys who should have been ahead of him never ending up coming or staying at MU.
As far as recruiting, I actually think it is better to have Otule. If I am a big man, I would want to go somewhere where I can practice against another big man and know that I can pass him up.
I'd heard similar things that MUMac did, regarding Murray's attitude, along the lines of Murray was lazy in practice, didn't want to work at it since he was expecting to go pro early, etc. The article ends with "frequently frustrated the coaching staff by losing focus"...makes me think twice about this.
This article also sounded a whole heck of a lot like what MU put out when Maymon left.......
If it was just a matter of LaSalle not being a good fit for him, and that led to his mentally checking out of the program - slash - attitude problems, then that would be less cause for concern. Maybe he'd be a better fit in Buzz's program and the rest would turn itself around from there. Here's hoping.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 04, 2011, 12:00:14 PM
I am not sure of the technicality of Otule's situation, but the point is that he has two more years left, correct? He will be at MU for 5 years?
He has two more years left of eligibility to compete.
However, what becomes important here when people talk about him taking a redshirt is that he only has two years left on his 5-year clock.
If you think of the average kid starting school, they have 5 years in which to compete 4 years.
Right now, Otule has 2 years in which to compete 2 years. Therefore, a redshirt year would effectively be a waste of a year of competition for Otule.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 04, 2011, 12:48:04 PM
He has two more years left of eligibility to compete.
However, what becomes important here when people talk about him taking a redshirt is that he only has two years left on his 5-year clock.
If you think of the average kid starting school, they have 5 years in which to compete 4 years.
Right now, Otule has 2 years in which to compete 2 years. Therefore, a redshirt year would effectively be a waste of a year of competition for Otule.
I see. Thanks.
I was not talking about Otule though. Rather just Gardner. I hope we are in the position to consider redshirting Gardner because we have a beast on the block like Murray. Until that day, I am happy that we have Otule and Gardner for the coming years down low.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 04, 2011, 11:21:10 AM
Otule could have made a difference, but he really was not polished his first two years. His redshirt ideally would have been his freshman year, but things did not work out that way after Mbakwe left. He was uncoordinated, but now he has grown into his body.
How do you know his emergence *this* year wouldn't have occured *last* year if he weren't injured?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2011, 11:19:37 AM
MU should redshirt DJO and Crowder next season so that Jones and EWill can get more PT. Then in the 2012-2013 season, all 4 of those players will have gotten a lot of experience and will be ready to contribute...but not right away. Jones and EWill would then redshirt in order to get them even more ready for the season after DJO and Crowder graduate! Then Wilson should fake an injury to see if he can get a hardship waiver and a 6th year of eligibility which would prevent him from taking PT from the fresh-off-a-redshirt EWill and would also give Wilson a second year of not playing competitive games which would obviously make him a better player! It's a perfect plan! ::)
Seriously, what's going on here? MU fans have apparently forgotten what it's like to have depth. FYI - it's a good thing.
Bingo. We keep wanting to sacrifice in the short-term because we think it is going to bring some super, duper extra benefit in the long-term. But how do we know this???
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 04, 2011, 12:07:45 PM
It wasn't a great thing--it was a terrible thing.
First, If Otule had played last year, the depth issue on the 2009-10 team would not have been as much of an issue, Hayward wouldn't have spent the year playing out of position, and we would have had a serviceable center in our lineup. Its inconceivable that we were a better team without Otule. With Otule, we would have been a better team in 2009-10--how much better? Who knows. Maybe we don't run out of gas against Washington, then easily top New Mexico and make the Sweet 16.
Plus, Otule would have come into THIS year with an additional full season of experience, making him more valuable to the team in 2010-11. Maybe a couple more wins in conference? Maybe another NCAA win?
Not only was it not a 'great thing' that Otule redshirtted--it probably harmed us in both 2010 and 2011.
Finally, having Otule around another year in 2012-13 will delay by a year Buzz's ability to leverage his newly enhanced recruiting capability. The Sweet 16 appearance and new contract will help him upgrade the type of player he can land.
This is 100% correct and stated much better than I did.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 01:06:40 PM
How do you know his emergence *this* year wouldn't have occured *last* year if he weren't injured?
If you want to speculate, the opposite is just as relevant. How do you know that last year he would have even gotten that much time? Jimmy, Lazar, and DJO up front produced a very successful season and tons of matchup problems. Besides that Georgetown game at MSG, we really never were hurt by a big man that badly. And Otule would not have been ready for Greg Monroe. Otule was practicing at the end of the year from what I remember and never played. Junior is easier to replace because PGs are easier for MU to recruit, but he did play Junior last year. He did not play Otule because Otule probably wasn't ready to go in his first two seasons. He would not have played much if at all.
He looked uncoordinated last year in his first few games. This year, it looks like he grew into his body. Clark, Liam, Mbakwe should have been playing and he would have been rushed out there before he was ready. It's better this way. We scrapped through a season with Lazar at the 5, and that was actually one of my favorite seasons to watch as an MU fan.
Developing 3-star bigs takes time, and they are apparently hard to find. We should know that better than anyone. Three years of Otule after investing two years to develop him is great for the program. Maybe Buzz will turn a corner and start landing 4 star bigs. But until he does, we just have to be patient with these guys.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2011, 11:19:37 AM
MU should redshirt DJO and Crowder next season so that Jones and EWill can get more PT. Then in the 2012-2013 season, all 4 of those players will have gotten a lot of experience and will be ready to contribute...but not right away. Jones and EWill would then redshirt in order to get them even more ready for the season after DJO and Crowder graduate! Then Wilson should fake an injury to see if he can get a hardship waiver and a 6th year of eligibility which would prevent him from taking PT from the fresh-off-a-redshirt EWill and would also give Wilson a second year of not playing competitive games which would obviously make him a better player! It's a perfect plan! ::)
Seriously, what's going on here? MU fans have apparently forgotten what it's like to have depth. FYI - it's a good thing.
I know you are kidding, but it is not a good strategy to redshirt wing players or PGs. They usually are ready to play when they get to college more than a big man who needs to grow into his body. Plus, MU can replace wing players and PGs very easily.
Bigs are a whole different story. I hope we get to the point where we are recruiting the top big men. However, there is some merit to sitting a big man and developing him if he is not going to contribute.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 04, 2011, 12:07:45 PM
Finally, having Otule around another year in 2012-13 will delay by a year Buzz's ability to leverage his newly enhanced recruiting capability. The Sweet 16 appearance and new contract will help him upgrade the type of player he can land.
Not sure that the 2003 Final Four, and new contract TC earned, upgraded the type of player we were able to land. I hope you are right, and that Buzz can parlay a Sweet 16 run into landing kids in the Top 30..as he's had a pretty good track record of landing kids in the 50-100 area...without any real skins on the wall.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 04, 2011, 01:17:57 PM
If you want to speculate, the opposite is just as relevant. How do you know that last year he would have even gotten that much time?
Because he was the tallest guy on the roster not named Mbao and we had Lazar playing out of place at center. It definately would have given Buzz more flexibility on how he could use his line-ups.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 04, 2011, 11:39:39 AM
With all those 2s and 4s, shouldn't someone redshirt?
Quote from: Pakuni on April 04, 2011, 11:46:41 AM
So, wait .... Davante Gardner will be better than Robert Jackson, but has no chance of playing with Aaric Murray and Chris Otule on the roster? Hmmm.
I tend to agree with a lot of both of your guy's analysis..just differ in this case. My desire to redshirt DG (if it came to the point where he isn't ready to be a 4 in 2012, and Murray transferred to MU), isn't to "hoarde" players at MU, etc. Just think it would be idiotic for Gardner to burn his Junior year at MU likely sitting on the bench...- even though he can be every bit as good as Robert Jackson, and probably better - he wouldn't command a majority of the minutes at the 5 if Murray is his competition. In R-Jax case...he had ZERO competition for the 5 position. Put a 4.5-5 star big on that roster with RJax with stats like Murray has put up thus far..and RJax is probably nothing more than a bit player on that team...and it would have been nice to have a guy with RJax's talents around the next season (which is my point about DG redshirting)
I really hope that Buzz starts recruiting bigs of Murray's caliber consistently. But, we only have one scholarship left this year and one the next. There are no bigs coming in yet. We would be very fortunate to get Murray, but in all likelihood we will have to develop any big man we get. Having Otule around for an extra year allows Buzz to do that.
Buzz probably could have played Otule last year in the tournament as he was back practicing. However, he did not. I think it was a smart move because big men do not grow on trees and Otule would not have helped that much. Buzz went 8 deep with Junior, Byucks, and Fulce off the bench last year, and that was the best team he could have put out there. If Otule could have cracked that rotation and made an impact, I doubt that Buzz doesn't give Lazar the best possible chance to win in March as a senior. I trust Buzz's choice. We are going in the right direction.
Quote from: downtown85 on April 04, 2011, 10:56:55 AM
Isn't that called a "medical redshirt?" I am not sure about all the ins and outs of NCAA regulations but I think that you get one redshirt year (medical or otherwise) over the eligibility timeframe of a player. In other words, I'm pretty sure CO can't redshirt anymore in his college career even if he is injured or wants to transfer.
Officially? No - it is a Medical Hardship Waiver. Most people, however, refer to it as a medical redshirt.
When was the last time anyone saw a contributing, healthy player take a redshirt in his junior year just to give him an extra year to develop?
**Listens to the crickets**
That only works in video games. Gardner is not taking a redshirt his junior year. I understand the mindset, but this is the real world, not the EA Sports world. It's wholly unrealistic to even think it might happen unless there is a need for
a medical hardship waiver.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 04, 2011, 02:44:39 PM
When was the last time anyone saw a contributing, healthy player take a redshirt in his junior year just to give him an extra year to develop?
**Listens to the crickets**
That only works in video games. Gardner is not taking a redshirt his junior year. I understand the mindset, but this is the real world, not the EA Sports world. It's wholly unrealistic to even think it might happen unless there is a need for
a medical hardship waiver.
Mike Flory at MU. But that was for academics.
It's not ideal to red shirt junior year, but our lack of big men is also not ideal. If Mbakwe or Liam were here, Gardner probably red shirts this year if we even had him. Otule was also practicing with the team as as sophomore and Buzz decided to hold him out, probably because he was not going to play anyway. There is a precedent there.
Let's land a guy who is ready to go like Murray and worry about it then. The scenario only happens if Murray is a 30 min big man and chooses to come here. If Murray comes and goes to the NBA after his one year at MU and fourth year of college, I don't think it is all that irrational for Gardner to red shirt. But yes, very rare and better to red shirt as a frosh if at all.
If Mbakwe or Liam were here, we never sign Gardner to begin with.
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 11:09:00 AM
We aren't talking about next year..we are talking about the hypothetical of IF MU lands Aaric Murray...Murray would have to sit out the 2011-2012 season...so DG plays NEXT year...see where he is at. But in 2012-2013 you would have Otule, Murray, and Gardner (with Otule being a senior, Murray a Junior, Gardner a Junior)...so highly unlikely there are enought minutes for all 3 to play in 2012-2013. Ask DG to redshirt..and now he is a class behind Murray.
It by no means is idiotic. And of course we all can see Devante's potential and made great strides this season...I've said many times since watching him in MU Madness that he very likely will be better than Robert Jackson was at MU -(which at the time was ridiculed by many), as has been my Buzz mancrush...Hmmm.
It is absolutely idiotic. You can't be serious.
Even if we do get a big transfer or freshman, buzz will not redshirt either player. I guarantee that. That would be a slap in the face to either player and hurt morale tenfold for said player. I guarantee it won't happen. And how can anyone say garner will get no minutes because there is not enough pt?
Is he not going to improve and get worse? This is a dumb conversation.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2011, 04:24:07 PM
It is absolutely idiotic. You can't be serious.
Agree. If MU does in fact get Murray to contemplate signing, how can they turn down the highest ranked bigman to the program in what, 30 years? They take him in a heartbeat and let the pieces fall. You get a talent like that and Otule and Gardner will be quality backups.
If Otule gets injured, then Aaric becomes the man to share minutes with Gardner.
If Gardner DOES become power forward, then MU becomes that old Florida team - with Dametri Hill at PF and Andrew DeClerq at the C - that goes to the Final Four.
At least, I hope that happens.
The bottom line is lets see if Buzz can get him to at least visit MU! Then MU
might have a chance! Recruiting starts Wednesday, by May 1st or so MU followers
will know something.
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 01:24:12 PM
Not sure that the 2003 Final Four, and new contract TC earned, upgraded the type of player we were able to land.
Why would the 2003 final four and new contract for Crean have any impact whatsoever on the type of player Buzz will be able to land from here on out?
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 01:24:12 PM
I hope you are right, and that Buzz can parlay a Sweet 16 run into landing kids in the Top 30..as he's had a pretty good track record of landing kids in the 50-100 area...without any real skins on the wall.
So does this mean you concede the first two points--that Otule would have made us better in 2009 and 2010 and therefore, not a "great thing" he redshirted?
The best scenario would have been Otule redshirting in 2009 when Burke was here. He was active and did nothing. Then, he could have come back in 2010 at the end of the season. Since he did not get the medical waiver or redshirt tin 2009, Buzz made the right choice by not bringing him back. At ninth man, he would not have made much of a difference.
His still being here in two years is a good thing. We have two scholarships left and we don't even know if they will be bigs. Let's enjoy having a developed big man in the middle these next two years. Things worked out just fine. If you are wishing that he would have been the player he was in 2011 his first two years, then yes it would have been good to have him. But, he was not by any means the competent interior presence his first two years. He is a perfect example of a project who needed to develop.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 04, 2011, 04:24:07 PM
It is absolutely idiotic. You can't be serious.
No - I am serious..and instead of calling it idiotic...please debate against the point I made. Do you really want Gardner to pretty much sit his entire Junior season - because as we both agree he has a lot of talent. However, his talent is NOT better than Aaric Murray's. Murray is practically a 5-star big with good results thus far - 15.2ppg, 7.7 rebs, and 2.3bpg as a sophomore. You really think Gardner is going to beat him out at the 5 for minutes?? Murray is the kind of player everyone around here has been moaninng and groaning over and over about MU getting.
Otule would be a senior, Murray a Junior and Gardner a Junior in 2012-2013 season. IF Gardner can't play/defend the 4..he isn't going to see many minutes (as talented as he is) that year. Why not redshirt him, and then in 2013-2014 it's just he and Murray (or possibly Murray goes pro), and then in 2014-2015 you have Devante as a 5th year senior ready to dominate the 5..and as it stands right now..in this (the 2011) recruiting class there isn't a high school "big" so it would buy Buzz more time to develop a big that would be ready to compete at a high level in 2015-2016.
I'm still waiting for all how complain how idiotic this is, to defend why they feel that way measured against the above facts. Given MU's track record at failing to land quality bigs..you want to maximize those you do land.
Because ners if he can't break into the rotation he can't really be good enough anyway. And if that is the case might as well use the scholie elsewhere.
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 11:31:12 AM
I'm not saying Devante would WANT to redshirt - that's obvious - every kid is always going to want to play. But..with Otule and Murray in the mix...it is very unlikely he'd see many minutes at the 5. Now, if he can develop into a 4 - then no worries on the redshirt...as there will be minutes available at the "4" in 2012-2013. Murray is practically a 5-star big who has put up some pretty darn good numbers and posseses a skill set MU has not seen in a big man in some time...DG would not beat him out for minutes at the 5 in 2012-2013.
Considering the lack of talented big men at MU in the past...there is NO sense in letting a very talented guy like DG burn a year of eligibility in a season where it is unlikely he'd see a lot of PT (2012-2013). Plus with DG's body type..it takes longer to re-shape such a body...and thus why it could be personally valuable to him and his long term goals/pro prospects..
You really don't see the need to have three players over 6'8" on one team at the same time? Buzz can have those three and he'll still need to have a big freshmen and one coming in the following year.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 04, 2011, 08:00:27 PM
You really don't see the need to have three players over 6'8" on one team at the same time? Buzz can have those three and he'll still need to have a big freshmen and one coming in the following year.
This exactly.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 07:46:57 PM
Because ners if he can't break into the rotation he can't really be good enough anyway. And if that is the case might as well use the scholie elsewhere.
Have to disagree Sultan...as clearly we've seen Devante is good enough to break into MU's lineup this past season..but there is no one near the caliber of Aaric Murray on the roster. Murray is a game changing 5..averaged about 32 minutes per game at LaSalle...assume he comes to MU and has to sit out his transfer year...he's only going to get better come the 2012-2013 season which would be his Junior year at MU, but technically senior year at LaSalle...
Clearly I'm in the large minority here...but just think Devante would sit a TON his junior year if Murray came to MU....and I'd rather see DG not waste a year of production capability on the bench for 30 minutes a game...when he is talented enough to be a 30 minute a game guy once in top condition..
Quote from: avid1010 on April 04, 2011, 08:00:27 PM
You really don't see the need to have three players over 6'8" on one team at the same time? Buzz can have those three and he'll still need to have a big freshmen and one coming in the following year.
I can see Otule and Murray being plenty of "size" for Buzz..he's not going to play two "5's" simulatenously. Jamil Wilson is 6'8" and rumor is Juan Anderson is approaching 6'8". The big "if" in all of this is if Gardner can work himself into shape to where he could play/defend the 4 - if that's the case would LOVE to see him play alongside Murray..and Otule would be the odd man out minutes-wise..
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 08:23:20 PM
I can see Otule and Murray being plenty of "size" for Buzz..he's not going to play two "5's" simulatenously. Jamil Wilson is 6'8" and rumor is Juan Anderson is approaching 6'8". The big "if" in all of this is if Gardner can work himself into shape to where he could play/defend the 4 - if that's the case would LOVE to see him play alongside Murray..and Otule would be the odd man out minutes-wise..
If Gardner can play the 4, and I think he needs to get his body in that type of shape because he has a nice outside touch, MU needs three bigs. Buzz has shown he's plenty capable of matching his offense to the players at hand, and no coach is going to complain about having too many big men at one time. We played plenty of minutes this year without Otule or Gardner on the court, would have been nice to have another option. There are plenty of minutes for three talented big men...about 26 per.
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 08:20:30 PM
Clearly I'm in the large minority here...but just think Devante would sit a TON his junior year if Murray came to MU....and I'd rather see DG not waste a year of production capability on the bench for 30 minutes a game...when he is talented enough to be a 30 minute a game guy once in top condition..
He's only talented enough if we don't have a guy as good as Murray on the roster.
Quote from: Ners on April 04, 2011, 08:20:30 PM
Have to disagree Sultan...as clearly we've seen Devante is good enough to break into MU's lineup this past season..but there is no one near the caliber of Aaric Murray on the roster. Murray is a game changing 5..averaged about 32 minutes per game at LaSalle...assume he comes to MU and has to sit out his transfer year...he's only going to get better come the 2012-2013 season which would be his Junior year at MU, but technically senior year at LaSalle...
Why is he only going to get better? Do all transfers automatically get better by sitting out a year? Did Dameon Mason get better after sitting out a year at LSU? Is Singleton going to challenge Junior to start at the point next year?
I think that's where there's the disconnect. You seem to be assuming that sitting out a year automatically results in a player getting better.
I hope Wilson improved!
Love davante and murray was playing in a 2-bigman lineup this past year.
I don't know if davante will ever be average on defense though, and would love to see buzz have them both on the court at once particularly since crowder will be gone then. Lose his rebounding and I believe we are going to have to play some 2-big line-up.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 04, 2011, 07:46:57 PM
Because ners if he can't break into the rotation he can't really be good enough anyway. And if that is the case might as well use the scholie elsewhere.
Otule could not break the rotation his first 2 years but you mock the people who suggest developing him is smart.
If Gardner ever plays 30+ minutes in a single game for MU, I will eat my shoe.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 05, 2011, 12:39:56 AM
Otule could not break the rotation his first 2 years but you mock the people who suggest developing him is smart.
Otule couldn't break into the rotation for one year...the year we had Burke playing center. He was injured last year.
And regardless, Ox is already *in* the rotation. If he can't keep his spot in the rotation as a junior, he must not be a high major player anyway.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 05, 2011, 08:15:01 AM
Otule couldn't break into the rotation for one year...the year we had Burke playing center. He was injured last year.
And regardless, Ox is already *in* the rotation. If he can't keep his spot in the rotation as a junior, he must not be a high major player anyway.
Sultan - I find your post to be fairly ironic - you acknowledge that due to Burke (competition) being on the roster...Otule couldn't break into the rotation.....yet if Murray comes to MU that Murray's presence shouldn't/won't impact Devante's playing time??.. I don't agree that DG can go from a contributing player as a freshman, to "not being a high major player" as a junior. The reality is that if Murray comes to MU, it significantly changes the landscape for Gardner with regard to PT - as he most likely is going to have to compete for minutes at the 5 with an established, 4.5 start talent..
The only problem with signing Murray would be that Buzz would be basically "recruitng over" Gardner and Otule, who would fight for backup minutes at the 5 unless we can play two of the three at the same time. No knock on Chris or Davante - they're both better than what we've become accustomed to at the 5, but Murray is NBA potential.
I think Ners idea has merit, but I seriously doubt Gardner would be ok with sitting a year after contributing for two - not too many guys would "volunteer" for that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 05, 2011, 09:39:46 AM
The only problem with signing Murray would be that Buzz would be basically "recruitng over" Gardner and Otule, who would fight for backup minutes at the 5 unless we can play two of the three at the same time. No knock on Chris or Davante - they're both better than what we've become accustomed to at the 5, but Murray is NBA potential.
I think Ners idea has merit, but I seriously doubt Gardner would be ok with sitting a year after contributing for two - not too many guys would "volunteer" for that.
If it came to that, my guess is that Gardner *would* sit out a year...as he transfers to a different school.
There are 80 minutes/game at the 4/5 position. Murray gets 30, Otule and Gardner get 30 combined and that leaves 20 minutes (ie one half of basketball) to "go small" with Wilson or Williams, both of whom can also play the 3.
Why does everyone seem to think that it's impossible to play 2 bigs at once?
FWIW, Murray is a 35.7% 3-point shooter (51/143) so he does have the ability to spread the floor.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 05, 2011, 09:39:46 AM
The only problem with signing Murray would be that Buzz would be basically "recruitng over" Gardner and Otule, who would fight for backup minutes at the 5 unless we can play two of the three at the same time.
I think this would be a great problems to have. I was very pleased with the production out of the 5 spot this year. However, our weaknesses at the 4 and 5 were exposed in the UNC game. With a center of Murray's quality (plus an Otule and/or Gardner), our weakness is not so glaring. It is all about Buzz having options for certain situations. Last year (09-10) we had no answer. This year is better. In two years, if we get Murray, it can be even better.
Quote from: Ners on April 05, 2011, 09:22:30 AM
Sultan - I find your post to be fairly ironic - you acknowledge that due to Burke (competition) being on the roster...Otule couldn't break into the rotation.....yet if Murray comes to MU that Murray's presence shouldn't/won't impact Devante's playing time??..
Good lord...do I really have to spell the difference out for you? Otule was a freshman. Davante would be a junior with two years of experience in the rotation under his belt. Yet somehow a player that you believe will be "better than Robert Jackson" wouldn't be able to keep his spot in the rotation?
Look...either he plays, or his isn't as good as you think he is.
It's exciting to read about how talented Murray is. Now if we can only sign him. Will he sign during the spring signing period?
He wouldn't sign. He would simply transfer. Transfers don't sign NLIs.
Quote from: Ners on April 05, 2011, 09:22:30 AM
Sultan - I find your post to be fairly ironic - you acknowledge that due to Burke (competition) being on the roster...Otule couldn't break into the rotation.....yet if Murray comes to MU that Murray's presence shouldn't/won't impact Devante's playing time??.. I don't agree that DG can go from a contributing player as a freshman, to "not being a high major player" as a junior. The reality is that if Murray comes to MU, it significantly changes the landscape for Gardner with regard to PT - as he most likely is going to have to compete for minutes at the 5 with an established, 4.5 start talent..
What's a 4.5 star talent, and why does that matter by the time a player is four years out of high school?
Nobody is suggesting that Murray shouldn't/won't impact Gardner's playing time. The question is, would the impact be so great that MU and Gardner are better off with Davante spending the season in street clothes. I think you've failed to make that case.
For starters, there's nothing wrong with having three capable big men on your roster - it seemed to have worked out OK for UConn - and there's no reason all three couldn't get minutes. In fact, there's no reason that some combination of two of the three couldn't be on the court at the same time. Offensively speaking, Murray can be a bit of a floater (20 percent of his shots in college have come from behind the arc), so I could easily see him and Gardner/Otule playing together.
Secondly, you've completely ignored the possibility of injury. And given Otule's history - and the history of Marquette's big men in general - you ignore that at your own peril. Redshirt Gardner and Otule gets hurt again, you're left with one post player who has a history fouling out.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 05, 2011, 11:06:41 AM
What's a 4.5 star talent, and why does that matter by the time a player is four years out of high school?
Nobody is suggesting that Murray shouldn't/won't impact Gardner's playing time. The question is, would the impact be so great that MU and Gardner are better off with Davante spending the season in street clothes. I think you've failed to make that case.
This all assumes Devante could play/defend the 4 - and I'm not sure he can. Think of how Buzz plays 3-4 switchables and 1 big...can you see Gardner chasing a "switchable" 4 like a Jamil Wilson around screens, etc. I don't think we ever saw a lineup this year with BOTH DG and Otule in the lineup together. Otule is absolutely a 5 only...maybe Murray can go 4..and Devante 5? But..it would be weird to have far and away your best shot block not defending the 5...
Again, I'm sure DG would resist redshirting as a junior..by all means he'd want to play..but of all candidates, with his body type..an extra year to continue to refine/reshape his body would not hurt his personal long term development, as well as benefit the team/program down the line.
Quote from: Ners on April 05, 2011, 11:34:12 AM
This all assumes Devante could play/defend the 4 - and I'm not sure he can. Think of how Buzz plays 3-4 switchables and 1 big...can you see Gardner chasing a "switchable" 4 like a Jamil Wilson around screens, etc. I don't think we ever saw a lineup this year with BOTH DG and Otule in the lineup together. Otule is absolutely a 5 only...maybe Murray can go 4..and Devante 5? But..it would be weird to have far and away your best shot block not defending the 5...
No, I don't think it assumes Gardner can play the four. It assumes Murray can, at least in spots. I don't think that's such a crazy proposition for a guy who takes a decent amount of his shots from the perimeter.
Just because Buzz like to use a "switchable" at the four - not that he's had much of a choice in the matter - doesn't mean the other team is going to play along by using a Jamil Wilson-type at their four. Plenty of Big East teams (i.e. Nova, Louisville, UConn, Cincy, USF) have used fours whose skill sets are more of that of a big man than a Jamil Wilson. Having all three big men available, and potentially on the court together, would give MU great flexibility, as well as to create mismatches by going small or big.
And there's nothing weird about having your best shot blocker not defending the five. Half of the Big East's top 10 shot blockers this year weren't pivots/centers.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 05, 2011, 11:02:21 AM
He wouldn't sign. He would simply transfer. Transfers don't sign NLIs.
This is a vicious lie.
Four-to-fours would be precluded (i.e., such as in this case), but certain
transfers do sign NLIs.
Having watched Ox in the Pro-Am, he has the athleticism to play the 4. How well depends on his conditioning. It seems like Murray could play some 4 as well. Otule is a 5 for sure. I could see a case where 2 4/5s and 1 5 makes a whole lot of sense especially if we are playing up tempo.
Offensively it would be great, as an example: Murray at the 5, Ox at the 4....Murray could take his guy out towards the arc because he has an ability to hit the 3 which opens up space underneath. Ox can post his guy up if he is more a Wilson type or he could out maneuver a post-up type defender. Otule would change the scenario some but offensively its still potent
As far as defense, there is always a possibility you go to the 2-3 zone. Could you imagine Ox(6-8), Murray(6-10), Andersen(6-8, supposedly) across the bottom with Vander and Jamil up top? Before you jump on me for no point guard, I think both Vander and Jamil can bring the ball up by the time they are juniors.
If this works out you could definitely get minutes for Ox(25min) and Murray(25min). Otule(15min) might be a bit of a man left out with fewer minutes but his upside just isn't as high as much as I love the guy.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 05, 2011, 12:02:55 PM
This is a vicious lie.
Four-to-fours would be precluded (i.e., such as in this case), but certain transfers do sign NLIs.
Never understand the rationale to call someone a vicious liar. As it pertains to the subject matter, he is correct. Was he incorrect with the technicality you cite? Yes. Does it make it a vicious lie? No.
Why so combative?
I appreciate you coming to my defense MUMac, but I think he was just being intentially hyperbolic.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 05, 2011, 12:02:55 PM
This is a vicious lie.
Four-to-fours would be precluded (i.e., such as in this case), but certain transfers do sign NLIs.
Unless they're Joe Fulce. He'd sign an NLI even if it was just to follow Buzz to a barbecue joint.
Quote from: MUMac on April 05, 2011, 12:22:00 PM
Never understand the rationale to call someone a vicious liar. As it pertains to the subject matter, he is correct. Was he incorrect with the technicality you cite? Yes. Does it make it a vicious lie? No.
Why so combative?
Why are you falsely accusing me and perpetuating awful and hurtful lies? The guy had a sentence that said, "Transfers do not sign NLIs." That is false and a vicious lie. Until he goes to confession, this will cause some issues with St. Peter at the gates.
You accuse me of being combative and infer that I called someone a vicious liar. That never happened. I said that his assertion was a vicious lie, which it was.
Butler sucked last night. Does that mean I think they suck? No. They have sucked in a game, but they do not suck.
ZFB once dating a female. Does that mean I think he is straight?
If Chicos says something about Buzz that is complimentary and I say, '"that was nice of that lil fellow to say of Buzz!", does that mean I don't understand the truth to be that Chicos hates MU?
I read that Chico's does not hate MU and furthermore he does not love Tan Tommy!
I believe the vast majority of Chico's posts would bear this out. Or not.
It would be great to get Murray. I see that WVU is also going after him. It looks like Huggins got his seventh verbal for the next class and only has 5 seniors. Not sure how many on his roster are walk-ons or going to the NBA, but things are getting crowded over there in Morgantown.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/school/_/id/277/class/2011
Huggins might have to Crean a player to get Murray.
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 05, 2011, 12:49:56 PMI said that his assertion was a vicious lie, which it was.
Hmm...really?
Quote from: Encarta World English DictionaryVicious (adj)
1. ferocious and violent: carried out with intense violence and an apparent desire to inflict serious harm, or acting in an aggressive, cruel, and violent way
2. dangerous and aggressive: aggressive and liable to attack or bite
3. malicious: intended to cause somebody mental anguish or to defame somebody
Calling someone out on a falsehood is one thing, saying it's a vicious lie seems a bit strong. But I'm more curious which definition of vicious you were going with here? Was this a violent lie or one with malicious intent?
No, wait...you must have meant that while lying, he also was likely to bite.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 05, 2011, 04:24:11 PM
Hmm...really?
Calling someone out on a falsehood is one thing, saying it's a vicious lie seems a bit strong. But I'm more curious which definition of vicious you were going with here? Was this a violent lie or one with malicious intent?
No, wait...you must have meant that while lying, he also was likely to bite.
I understand you may work in the public sector and probably did not take a traditional route in your education, but let me assure you, there are far more definitions of the word 'vicious' than the three you offered up from some online dictionary.
'Vicious' can be used to describe certain things that are unsound and full of defects, such as the Sultan's assertion that transfers do not sign NLIs.
Now, tell me... when you hear some talk about a 'vicious circle', which one of your three definitions do you use?
Quote from: Jay Bee on April 05, 2011, 04:39:01 PM
I understand you may work in the public sector and probably did not take a traditional route in your education, but let me assure you, there are far more definitions of the word 'vicious' than the three you offered up from some online dictionary.
'Vicious' can be used to describe certain things that are unsound and full of defects, such as the Sultan's assertion that transfers do not sign NLIs.
Now, tell me... when you hear some talk about a 'vicious circle', which one of your three definitions do you use?
The biting one, obviously ?-(
Jeez...can no one on this site ever take a joke? Get over yourself, I was just trying to lighten the mood.
This thread is going really well so far. Keep up the good work, guys.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 05, 2011, 11:06:41 AM
What's a 4.5 star talent, and why does that matter by the time a player is four years out of high school?
Pakuni - agree with most of your quote, but the 4.5 star talent really is an appropriate description for Murray, albeit shorthand.
As I detailed on the Crackedsidewalks post, Murray just missed being a 5-star, so was a very high 4-star, but more important his stats as a freshman AND as a sophomore are almost precisely halfway between the average performance for a 4-star and 5-star during his freshman and sophomore years. If the guy had busted by now, I'd say it doesn't matter that he was a border line 4- or 5-star player (4.5), but when two years of stats have been on that course too, I believe it is an apt shorthand for what we'd be getting, if he is even considering us of course!
Anyone who thinks Jay Bee is being anything but a harmless smartass hasn't spent enough time in the gameday chat room
Quote from: NickelDimer on April 05, 2011, 05:41:18 PM
Anyone who thinks Jay Bee is being anything but a harmless smartass hasn't spent enough time in the gameday chat room
I figured it out after my initial response. Sad that I could not figure that out earlier, as I pride myself on being a smartass myself!
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 05, 2011, 05:01:51 PM
This thread is going really well so far. Keep up the good work, guys.
I lol'd