Just announced
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6212623
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 01:33:56 PM
Just announced
Incredible 2011 class set to come in.. wonder what shakes out.
Sweet! They have a ton of good players that might want out of their LOI's. Weren't we recruiting BJ Young? Four star PF Hunter Mickelson?
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/school/_/id/8/class/2011
Anybody on the current roster maybe wanna transfer? Thank God we have an open scholarship to accommodate any of them!
ESPN just said Mizzou's Mike Anderson is the leading candidate
We were recruiting BJ Young, PG and Rashad Madden, a 6'5" 2G that both had signed with Ark. Madden was from Arkansas and Young was from Mo., I believe.
Young had been rated 17 by Rivals, and Madden was 30.
BJ Young... I want that.
Mickelson and Ky Madden (and Aaron Ross) are all teammates with the Arkansas Wings... fun team to watch, saw them a bit last summer... if they get the right hire in there soon, maybe the class sticks...
Quote from: MUBurrow on March 13, 2011, 01:52:29 PM
BJ Young... I want that.
BJ young, old, doesn't matter...BJ is always good. ;)
is there anywhere on here (or elsewhere) where I can read a little more about some of these recruits and their MU ties? particularly Young, since that seems like a great fit for us with 2 more years of Junior, and the importance of the PG position, but the others as well?
(I know I'm ignoring the Buzz whispers for now, but I dont see much to say about it at this point other than that he said he wants to be here, I have no reason to not believe him, but I'm damaged goods in this relationship and have been hurt before)
Buzz Williams' name is making the rounds out there nationally, a lot of bumpkins trying to find out who Buzz Williams is, half of them calling him Buzz Petersen.
C-ham better have Buzz trailed and Brian Gregory on stand by....this is head coach recruiting season, end of march early april,
we better not get bamboozled again.
BJ young would be a HUGE get. So would Hunter.
Is Buzz a scumbag if he contacts either of them before they announce they would like to get out of their LOI?
Quote from: jeffreyweee on March 13, 2011, 02:21:15 PM
BJ young would be a HUGE get. So would Hunter.
Is Buzz a scumbag if he contacts either of them before they announce they would like to get out of their LOI?
Pretty sure it's illegal. They may be able to contact him though. Not sure about the second part. Can the squirm police weigh in on this please?
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 13, 2011, 02:17:03 PM
Buzz Williams' name is making the rounds out there nationally, a lot of bumpkins trying to find out who Buzz Williams is, half of them calling him Buzz Petersen.
C-ham better have Buzz trailed and Brian Gregory on stand by....this is head coach recruiting season, end of march early april,
we better not get bamboozled again.
We do not want Brian Gregory. Trust me. Dude can't coach offense. His teams underachive every year (outside of two years ago when they made the tourney and knocked off WVU) There is no way the team he had this year should not have finished above .500 in conference. Also, if people think Buzz has a hard time developing talent, wait till they see Gregory. Chris Wright was a consensus draft pick after his sophmore year. Dude isn't even on the board anymore. He has regressed under Gregory.
Quote from: DiaperDandy on March 13, 2011, 02:26:21 PM
We do not want Brian Gregory. Trust me. Dude can't coach offense. His teams underachive every year (outside of two years ago when they made the tourney and knocked off WVU) There is no way the team he had this year should not have finished above .500 in conference. Also, if people think Buzz has a hard time developing talent, wait till they see Gregory. Chris Wright was a consensus draft pick after his sophmore year. Dude isn't even on the board anymore. He has regressed under Gregory.
He's recruited tremendously for Dayton and offense comes and goes but you need defense to be consistently good... look at Bo, Painter, etc. Gregory would get us back to the Izzo coaching tree which I would like....but I'm all up for conversation on different options if it needs to take place.
Andy Katz is reporting that Mike Anderson (Missouri) is top choice with Buzz Williams high on the list as well.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6212623
Go Warriors
I'm just wondering how Arkansas was able to judge in less than five years?
If Buzz were to leave, it would be the shortest coaching stint in MU history where a coach left voluntarily for another college head coaching job since Tex Winter in 1953.
Would love it if this ended up re-opening the recruitment of BJ Young. He's the definition of the elite point guard that we need to take us to the next level.
Billy G is out there,today.
Didnt he shop himself to Arkansas while leaving AM for the UK job. I recall an interesting story at time of John P's Arkansas hiring, including the aggies, but not the details--anyone remember it?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 02:44:46 PM
If Buzz were to leave, it would be the shortest coaching stint in MU history where a coach left voluntarily for another college head coaching job since Tex Winter in 1953.
He'd also be the first to be offered a big time job after just three years at MU which would be indicative that even non fanboys think pretty highly of him.
I know you're worried about losing him but my sources say he's already told Arkansas no. Rest easy.
Quote from: houwarrior on March 13, 2011, 03:02:59 PMBilly G is out there,today.
Didnt he shop himself to Arkansas while leaving AM for the UK job. I recall an interesting story at time of John P's Arkansas hiring, including the aggies, but not the details--anyone remember it?
I'm sure there's more to it, but here's a news article I found at the time. Looks like Gillispie made himself available to Arkansas, which provoked A&M to hand him a raise. I don't think that's uncommon at all, coaches using potential job offers to get a raise out of their current employer. Anyway, here's the link I found:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4661783.html
Another article:
http://www.aolnews.com/2007/03/26/billy-gillispie-to-arkansas/
Katz just reported on ESPN that Buzz Williams would be Arkansas' 2nd choice.
My bad, the comment by Andy Katz about Buzz and Arkansas was already made above by Warrior Forever.
Katz is reporting that In Buzz We Trust is Arkansas' #2 choice. can't see Anderson leaving Mo., he has done a hell of a job there. Would Buzz leave?
At the end of the day...the fact Buzz is rumored to be Arkansas's Number 2 choice speaks volumes about how he is perceived nationally.
Yet we have some of our own "fans" questioning his competency, recruiting, and stewardship of the program? This is what enrages me more than anything, and why I always go the "fanboy" route. We are one Keno Davis away from being a true after thought in the Big East.
Andy Katz just said on ESPN that the top candidate is Mike Anderson at Missouri, and their second choice would be Marquette's Buzz Williams due to his Arkansas ties.
Personally, I don't think he'll be going, though it would make sense for Arkansas since the top two players of their vaunted #7 recruiting class were also Buzz targets.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2011, 03:14:25 PM
I'm sure there's more to it, but here's a news article I found at the time. Looks like Gillispie made himself available to Arkansas, which provoked A&M to hand him a raise. I don't think that's uncommon at all, coaches using potential job offers to get a raise out of their current employer. Anyway, here's the link I found:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4661783.html
Another article:
http://www.aolnews.com/2007/03/26/billy-gillispie-to-arkansas/
Thanks-- that helped. Billy then rewarded AM by jumping to UK.
Also, This job at Ark was given after the embarrasment of creighton coach accepting and bailing. ...."Pelphrey was not the first choice when he was hired. Then-Creighton coach Dana Altman took the Arkansas job and held a news conference before going back to Creighton. Altman is now the head coach at Oregon....."
If the same drama story repeats its history of 4 years ago...ie, we may see rumors of contacts with Billy G. Buzz and the Mizzou asst...could be fun to watch.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 13, 2011, 03:20:58 PM
Katz is reporting that In Buzz We Trust is Arkansas' #2 choice. can't see Anderson leaving Mo., he has done a hell of a job there. Would Buzz leave?
Of course he would.
Quote from: Knight Commission on March 13, 2011, 03:27:44 PM
Of course he would.
Taking into account your thorough reasoning and detailed explanation, I've decided.. I agree.
C-ham better not get on any planes.
Lets get Jeter warming up to replace Buzz. After Jeter leaves MU in a few years, then Wardle or Harris will be ready. Then a few years after they take over, Diener and/or Novak will be ready.
The program will make the coach.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 13, 2011, 03:13:58 PM
He'd also be the first to be offered a big time job after just three years at MU
Not true but certainly believe whatever you wish
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 03:22:09 PM
At the end of the day...the fact Buzz is rumored to be Arkansas's Number 2 choice speaks volumes about how he is perceived nationally.
Weird...so all the job offers for our previous coach didn't mean this because you labeled him a fraud, but for Buzz it means something different. Weird.
LOL. I love it.
Is Arkansas a better job right now? Closer to home for Buzz, but not sure about money. I'm sure that if he makes a Sweet 16 run, C-ham will have no problem paying him if we need to. He's currently in the best conference in the land, which is a double-edged sword. Arkansas currently has an easier road with the strength of the SEC West, but considering Alabama is a bubble team with a 12-4 conference record, it will probably be harder to get in the tourney.
This isn't the Arkansas of Nolan Richardson, and this isn't a case of "It's Arkansas, it's Arkansas". I think right now he stays. Unless it's Texas or one of the classic major programs like Kansas, Kentucky, or UNC, he stays put for now.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Weird...so all the job offers for our previous coach didn't mean this because you labeled him a fraud, but for Buzz it means something different. Weird.
LOL. I love it.
I agree with your point, but please don't turn this into a Buzz vs. Crean thread. I would gather a ton of us were worried (I know I was) when Crean was mentioned for other jobs premier jobs, but proud of where it meant we were.
I don't want to lose another coach. I think that right now continuity is key for MU, even with the warts we know Buzz has.
I'd be very surprised to see Buzz leave. He understands the blessing that MU gave him. We might be writing a bigger check but I do not expect him to cut and run.
The facilities at Arkansas are top-notch. My understanding is the best in the SEC behind Kentucky. Wal-Mart money. I can see why he would be interested.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 03:32:36 PM
Not true but certainly believe whatever you wish
The first big job I recall TC allegedly being offered was Illinois after year 4. I know for a fact that "offer" never occured. They're may or may not have been an Arkansas offer between Illinois and Indiana - I don't have personal knowledge on that. Who is it you claim offered TC after year 3 at MU?
Plus how is that Indiana thing working out? Granted he's making big money but . . .
The grass isn't always greener. I can see why Arkansas may have an interest in Buzz. I just think he's thinking about seeing if their recruits want to practice up here in the AL.
And let's hope Ark would be no better than Buzz's second choice.
Mike Anderson was an assistant at Arkansas from 1985 to 2002. Even though he has had success at Missouri, it would be one of those "homecoming" jobs coaches eventually go to. Like Gary Williams at Maryland and Roy Williams at UNC as two examples.
So if Buzz leaves for Arky I guess that just proves the Cottingham coach hiring process worked beautifully.
*Throws big gas-drenched log into freakshow fire*
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 13, 2011, 04:23:00 PM
So if Buzz leaves for Arky I guess that just proves the Cottingham coach hiring process worked beautifully.
*Throws big gas-drenched log into freakshow fire*
Ugh...
Anytime you can leave back to back great recruiting classes, a job at a great university where basketball is KING, and play in the best conference in college basketball, to go to an SEC bottom-feeder where nobody cares about basketball, whose recruits are fleeing as if from a house fire, YOU'VE GOT TO DO IT. No drawbacks there!!
Basketball is huge at Arkansas.
If Buzz leaves for Arkansas go after Todd Townsend from Northern Illinois.
Arkansas is a very appealing job, imo. Near a hot bed for basketball recruiting, if I was from that area it'd be very enticing.
Honestly, I don't know if Buzz has shown enough to get into a bidding war...the cold hard facts are we have regressed each year.
I do not think he would leave the best conference in the Country for a football conference.
Andy Katz, for whatever reason, always mentions MU coaches for job openings. first with KO, then Crean a few times and now Buzz. To me he's a muckraker. :-X
Quote from: willie warrior on March 13, 2011, 04:48:04 PM
I do not think he would leave the best conference in the Country for a football conference.
$$$$ will do it. But, if you have $$$$, why not go after a more established head coach?
He's basically a rumor-mongering dips***. Reminds me of the 'ol Lionel Hutz line, "Well, I've got plenty of HEARSAY and CONJECTURE, those are KINDS OF EVIDENCE?!"
Again, WHO WANTS SOME SCOTCH??
(http://images.thecarconnection.com/sml/lionel-hutz-attorney-at-law_100182229_s.jpg)
Quote from: lab_warrior on March 13, 2011, 04:59:57 PM
He's basically a rumor-mongering dips***. Reminds me of the 'ol Lionel Hutz line, "Well, I've got plenty of HEARSAY and CONJECTURE, those are KINDS OF EVIDENCE?!"
Again, WHO WANTS SOME SCOTCH??
(http://images.thecarconnection.com/sml/lionel-hutz-attorney-at-law_100182229_s.jpg)
Beat ya to it Lionel! mmm, Scotch.
I don't claim to know much about the situation, but I doubt Buzz leaves.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 03:34:16 PM
Weird...so all the job offers for our previous coach didn't mean this because you labeled him a fraud, but for Buzz it means something different. Weird.
LOL. I love it.
Please use your search function expertise and tell me where I said Crean wasn't deserving of other offers he got? Additionally, you say you never bring Crean up in threads..did you not just now? I also don't believe I called Cread a fraud at any point..but if you can find that..please do post. That said, I'm sure you don't care because as you have said many times, you thought Crean was a douche...douche is probably a cousin of fraud...,
I hope Buzz stays, but would not blame him to head to Arkansas. Great home base recruiting and easier conference. In addition, new job = long term contract and security. If he would happen to leave I pray that we take our time and solicit basketball minds to help in search. We cannot face another situation were we roll the dice and hope for the best.
I stated last week I thought Buzz was gone after this season and stick with that post. He is a sly guy and would be stupid not to follow money and long term contract. This unlike when KO left just to leave. This would be going to his area and run wild. Also, would have to believe he could get any kid into school at Arkansas.
If Buzz leaves it won't be for more money or job security. Not by a mile.
SO FAR Cottingham has shown he knows what he's doing in coach hirings. No need to change the process....it worked.
Should be a one man operation (Cottingham) with insight from trusted basketball advisors (Doc Rivers, etc.) and Dick Strong.
Stone Cold---Respectfully disagree with you on Cottingham and the rest of the crew. I would say at best his first hire was better than many feared but far from a home run. I still remain in awe of so many fans that march behind every decision the school makes. Doc Rivers met Buzz two times during the season was here and recommended because TC recommended him.
I love Doc but he is an MU guy in name only.
If he goes, God bless him. We will do fine without him. There is always Mo or Larry to replace him
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 06:59:06 PM
Stone Cold---Respectfully disagree with you on Cottingham and the rest of the crew. I would say at best his first hire was better than many feared but far from a home run. I still remain in awe of so many fans that march behind every decision the school makes. Doc Rivers met Buzz two times during the season was here and recommended because TC recommended him.
I love Doc but he is an MU guy in name only.
Who do you feel MU could have fired instead of Buzz that would have been a "home run?" Quite frankly, I think we hit a home run with Buzz, and were VERY lucky to have him basically fall in our lap. Thank you Tom Crean for bringing him to MU.
ners---An 11 seed in year three, poorest recruiting class in three years, several transfers and a chance for 1 or 2 this year is a home run? I guess we all have different standards. Honestly admin knows that 95% think like you and they perform with that in mind. 14 losses and worst student section support in years indicates far from a home run.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 07:09:56 PM
ners---An 11 seed in year three, poorest recruiting class in three years, several transfers and a chance for 1 or 2 this year is a home run? I guess we all have different standards. Honestly admin knows that 95% think like you and they perform with that in mind. 14 losses and worst student section support in years indicates far from a home run.
You have officially outed yourself as an idiot. This post is about as ignorant as one can get. Sure you aren't a troll?? So Buzz has had his poorest recruiting class yet - according to you?? Mayo and Juan Anderson are pretty special talents..don't get too caught up in recruiting rankings..okay?
For the last time..please answer the question..who can MU hire that would be a home run? Hell Arkansas thinks they can recruit away our coach...what evidence have we ever had that some elite coach is going to want to come to MU??
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 07:09:56 PM
ners---An 11 seed in year three, poorest recruiting class in three years, several transfers and a chance for 1 or 2 this year is a home run? I guess we all have different standards. Honestly admin knows that 95% think like you and they perform with that in mind. 14 losses and worst student section support in years indicates far from a home run.
What a crock. Kinda hard to land a 4-star with every scholarship after two consecutive loaded classes. The fact that he did land one and got another hot commodity in Mayo says something.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 07:14:56 PM
You have officially outed yourself as an idiot. This post is about as ignorant as one can get. Sure you aren't a troll?? So Buzz has had his poorest recruiting class yet - according to you?? Mayo and Juan Anderson are pretty special talents..don't get too caught up in recruiting rankings..okay?
You dont have to agree with him, but you certainly don't get to call him an idiot when experts in recruiting agree with him. Settle down homeboy.
edited because i forgot the first don't, which made the post very confusing
Ners---I'm an idiot and you keeping writing stupid posts. If Buzz is elite coach why would he stay? Everytime we lose a recruit or transfer you are bashing the kid and saying what a great thing it is he is gone. We are ranked high in recruiting and it means something and not rated highly the ranking mean nothing. If Mayo and Anderson are special talents we would be graded highly for those finds. They are special talents because you say so...give me a break.
Quote from: MUBurrow on March 13, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
You dont have to agree with him, but you certainly don't get to call him an idiot when experts in recruiting agree with him. Settle down homeboy.
edited because i forgot the first don't, which made the post very confusing
I'll call the guy an idiot all I want...homeboy. MU will have never had a collection of as many 4 and 5 star players on its roster as it does next year. Kansas got involved with Mayo late - think Kansas recruits stiffs? And the "recruiting experts" aren't that accurate at all when it comes to assesing talent slots 25-150...fyi.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 07:25:55 PM
I'll call the guy an idiot all I want...homeboy. MU will have never had a collection of as many 4 and 5 star players on its roster as it does next year. Kansas got involved with Mayo late - think Kansas recruits stiffs? And the "recruiting experts" aren't that accurate at all when it comes to assesing talent slots 25-150...fyi.
i think every time anyone has ever gotten into a debate with you on this board, it has had to end with the other person biting their tongue so as not to drag down the quality of the whole enterprise.
Jamailman--Agreed it is harder to recruit top classes after two having the last two years. However we have not kept all of the kids we recruited in those highly rated classes. If everyone was still here or going to be here next year your argument has more validity. KY gets high classes every year because they need to reload. If we cannot keep all of our kids we need to reload.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 07:23:48 PM
Ners---I'm an idiot and you keeping writing stupid posts. If Buzz is elite coach why would he stay? Everytime we lose a recruit or transfer you are bashing the kid and saying what a great thing it is he is gone. We are ranked high in recruiting and it means something and not rated highly the ranking mean nothing. If Mayo and Anderson are special talents we would be graded highly for those finds. They are special talents because you say so...give me a break.
I've never bashed a kid and said it is a great thing they are gone...keep grasping for straws. If Buzz is an elite coach why would he stay?? Maybe because he feels a degree of loyalty to the administration who rolled the dice on him and gave him a big break? Maybe because the values of Marquette line up very closely with Buzz's own values? And what the hell does: We are ranked high in recruiting and it means something and not rated highly the ranking mean nothing?? You are the one with an issue over Buzz's recruiting..maybe his last 2 classes were overrated..but they were Top 25 classes nationally..by virtue of the player ratings within those classes..which is what you are critical of in the class with Mayo, Anderson and Wilson, correct?
But for the last time Goose - or idiot - who do you want MU to hire? Please give us a list of the accomplished, elite coaches that are ready to come to MU?
Quote from: mugrad2006 on March 13, 2011, 05:03:10 PM
Beat ya to it Lionel! mmm, Scotch.
16 year Lagavulin for me.
MUBurrow---You are correct on that. Unfortunately some of the debaters simply do not read my posts. #1 I love MU ball--not a troll #2 I think Buzz has done a good job, better than I expected--hope he stays #3 I want to see MU improve year in and year out--would like to see the bar be raised to higher standard #4 I have been a fan since 1968 and will be the rest of my life
For some reason ners believes he is the greatest fan and historian of the program. He continually contradicts himself and insults posters.
If you read my posts I respectfully disagree, not insult as a rule.
Quote from: MUBurrow on March 13, 2011, 07:28:04 PM
i think every time anyone has ever gotten into a debate with you on this board, it has had to end with the other person biting their tongue so as not to drag down the quality of the whole enterprise.
Why do you care? Furthermore..there are many threads where others disagree with me and continue the thread.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 07:37:18 PM
Why do you care? Furthermore..there are many threads where others disagree with me and continue the thread.
The fact that you ask why I would care highlights your tunnel vision once you engage in any kind of one on one with another poster. I care because there are a lot of important things to be said on this and many other topics that never get explored because we are calling each other idiots and without evidence implying that recruit rankings can't be trusted or referenced, etc.
And you're right that many other threads get continued with disagreeing with you... until they are locked and you both are banned.
Ners--- I fall in the Cottingham camp. Neither one of us would have a clue on which elite coaches would be interested. Unlike Cottingham I would contact basketball people to look into the options. I think Doc might be more interested in winning NBA championship to be active help in a search.
Quote from: groove on March 13, 2011, 07:36:12 PM
Hey ners anytime anyone says anything negative against buzz all u resort to is calling the guy an idiot. Why don't u just get your kneepads on and get down on all fours I think buzz is coming over to see u.
Hey funny guy rolling out the gay jokes. Original. Sure you aren't Goose's butt buddy? Both of you make idiotic posts regarding our coaching situation. Both complain and bitch about Buzz..but then when pressed to offer solutions on who else you think MU could get/should get...you offer nothing..other than to throw the most money at a coach....
Nothing worse than those who complain and never make any suggestions for solutions. Only thing worse are those who complain about things that are actually good..such as you and Goose...complaining about Buzz.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 07:46:17 PM
Hey funny guy rolling out the gay jokes. Original. Sure you aren't Goose's butt buddy? Both of you make idiotic posts regarding our coaching situation.
Ners...take a deep breath...step away from the computer...and get a good night's sleep OK? You are taking this a little too personally.
Quote from: MUBurrow on March 13, 2011, 07:43:13 PM
The fact that you ask why I would care highlights your tunnel vision once you engage in any kind of one on one with another poster. I care because there are a lot of important things to be said on this and many other topics that never get explored because we are calling each other idiots and without evidence implying that recruit rankings can't be trusted or referenced, etc.
And you're right that many other threads get continued with disagreeing with you... until they are locked and you both are banned.
So this thread is basically about the merits of Buzz as a head coach and another school showing interest in him, right? Usually other schools only show interest in a coach they perceive to be very good, correct? Yet we have our own "fans" who criticize the job Buzz is doing..and would be okay/happy to see him go. As for the recruiting rankings..if you want to get caught up in those fine..but Buzz put together back to back Top 25 classes at MU his first 2 years (based on national rankings of kids in those clases)...hadn't been done in a long time at MU. So..feather in his cap, right? But now we bitch because his 3rd class isn't ranked in the Top 25 nationally? So the new gold standard at MU is that our coach must land Top 25 nationally ranked classes every year..when even the likes of Huggins, Pitino and Calhoun can't claim that in the last 3 years...
NERS---I LIKE BUZZ AND HOPES HE STAYS.
All I said was if he took AK job I would not blame him. I believe it would not be a sideways move on his part due to that being his backyard. My only point was IF he left I hoped that Cottingham & Co. took their time and put on a full court press in search process.
Ners, deep cleansing breaths. Many people were critical of Crean while he kept having his name tossed out for every other job that was out there. Don't get yourself banned again. Yes, there are a number of people on this board not sold on Buzz. This is America. They are entitled to their opinion just as you are. IMO, Texas Tech is a huge step backward and Arkansas is a slight step backward. Others obviously disagree. Relax.
I cannot believe that Ners was banned. Had to be someone else posting under his name.
Arkansas fans
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=10&f=1013&t=7308740
I like them swinging for the fences. I just wonder if they realize no elite coach would want that job. There was to be a Ners down there that throw wet blanket on the search for elite coach. Maybe Ners can throw out Jeter or Wardle on their board.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 07:09:56 PM
ners---An 11 seed in year three, poorest recruiting class in three years, several transfers and a chance for 1 or 2 this year is a home run? I guess we all have different standards. Honestly admin knows that 95% think like you and they perform with that in mind. 14 losses and worst student section support in years indicates far from a home run.
Pardon me Goose..but the above certainly doesn't sound like someone who wants Buzz to stay at MU. A review of your post history is quite confusing to say the least...as you are all over the place on your viewpoints...u seem very critical, yet want Buzz to stay, yet don't blame him if he leaves, and you see Arkansas as a step above the MU job..yet think MU can attract an elite proven coach?? Bizarre.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 07:54:18 PM
NERS---I LIKE BUZZ AND HOPES HE STAYS.
All I said was if he took AK job I would not blame him. I believe it would not be a sideways move on his part due to that being his backyard. My only point was IF he left I hoped that Cottingham & Co. took their time and put on a full court press in search process.
+1 Hope he stays because someone leaving after only 3 years puts us back to where we were before Crean...STEPPING STONE-VILLE. I want stability. If he does go, God Bless him and I hope we go out and act like a big boy program and not have to constantly take chances all the time.
Ners---That post was response to you stating Cottingham hit a home run with Buzz, not my opinion on Buzz. Our definition of homerun are very different.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 08:05:59 PM
+1 Hope he stays because someone leaving after only 3 years puts us back to where we were before Crean...STEPPING STONE-VILLE. I want stability. If he does go, God Bless him and I hope we go out and act like a big boy program and not have to constantly take chances all the time.
Part of the problem is we still pretty much are looked at as a stepping stone program..yet some here think this is a destination job that a proven, elite, high major coach would be salivating at coming to. If programs didn't think MU coaches could be pryed away...we wouldn't keep hearing our coaches mentioned in other openings as was the case for KO, Crean and now Buzz.
We can act like a big boy program all we want...but when life and reality keep telling you...not so much...you have to acknowledge your reality. When the Tony Bennetts, Sean Miller's and Anthony Grant's tell you no thanks...it is highly unlikely an Izzo, Pitino, Calipari, Donovan, Self, Roy Williams, Rick Barnes, Mark Turgeon's are going to come knocking on your door.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 08:11:27 PM
Ners---That post was response to you stating Cottingham hit a home run with Buzz, not my opinion on Buzz. Our definition of homerun are very different.
To the fans, there was confusion. I know that Cottingham felt he was a home run.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 06:52:34 PM
I hope Buzz stays, but would not blame him to head to Arkansas. Great home base recruiting and easier conference. In addition, new job = long term contract and security. If he would happen to leave I pray that we take our time and solicit basketball minds to help in search. We cannot face another situation were we roll the dice and hope for the best.
I stated last week I thought Buzz was gone after this season and stick with that post. He is a sly guy and would be stupid not to follow money and long term contract. This unlike when KO left just to leave. This would be going to his area and run wild. Also, would have to believe he could get any kid into school at Arkansas.
I like Buzz a lot, think he'll lead us to the NCAA Tournament in most years, and really really hope he stays. This is coming from someone who was very skeptical of his hiring, but not any longer, regardless of the fact he's had some growing pains.
That said, i certainly wouldn't be shocked if he left for Arkansas, there are numerous reasons to make that job appealing to Buzz. Plus, i rarely blame coaches for leaving for what they deem as a better overall opportunity given how quick many universities are to fire a coach. Look at Pelphrey. Arkansas hasn't been good under him, but they haven't been brutal like say Keno Davis was at Providence and Pelphrey had a top 10 class coming in. Loyalty doesn't exist on either side when it comes to big money pro or college sports.
My gut says Buzz will stay in the 70/30 odds range, but when i see stuff like Tubby Smith leave a Kentucky for Minnesota, obviously nothing should really surprise fans.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 06:59:06 PM
Stone Cold---Respectfully disagree with you on Cottingham and the rest of the crew. I would say at best his first hire was better than many feared but far from a home run. I still remain in awe of so many fans that march behind every decision the school makes. Doc Rivers met Buzz two times during the season was here and recommended because TC recommended him.
Sorry Goose..but it seems you didn't feel like Buzz was a home run hire..which is why I asked you who you wanted to see get hired (that would actually come to MU). I'm still waiting for your input/insight as to who you think MU could have landed if not Buzz.
Lastly, when you state that you feel the hire of Buzz was "far from a home run," it implies dissatisfaction with the hire...but yet you want Buzz to stay? But don't blame him if he leaves MU - cause Arkansas would be a rung up the ladder on the college basketball coaching landscape?? I just don't get it.
Ners--
Top shelf practice facility
NBA arena
Deep pockets
Alums in NBA--players and coach
Great resume of play
BE
Sounds like the big boys to me. Guys like you accept a stepping stone location because you are paranoid. The Packers are far from big boys in NFL circles but believe they do quite well. All the tools are in place with exception of Admin.
Ners--EVERY COACH IS DIFFERENT. BUZZ IS TX/AK GUY. I do not think Mike Brey or Bo Ryan would be great fit down there.
FYI---Buzz is far from a home run thus far. But, I prefer taking my chances with him the next 2-3 years because I think the fools doing the hiring would take another step backwards.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 08:14:08 PM
Part of the problem is we still pretty much are looked at as a stepping stone program..yet some here think this is a destination job that a proven, elite, high major coach would be salivating at coming to. If programs didn't think MU coaches could be pryed away...we wouldn't keep hearing our coaches mentioned in other openings as was the case for KO, Crean and now Buzz.
We can act like a big boy program all we want...but when life and reality keep telling you...not so much...you have to acknowledge your reality. When the Tony Bennetts, Sean Miller's and Anthony Grant's tell you no thanks...it is highly unlikely an Izzo, Pitino, Calipari, Donovan, Self, Roy Williams, Rick Barnes, Mark Turgeon's are going to come knocking on your door.
Yes, but you can cut down those odds Ners. If you hire a guy that didn't even know where Milwaukee is (Buzz's words), you have to wonder how long he is for the job. When you hire a guy with Midwest roots, your odds improve that he'll be here for the longer haul. I don't expect someone to be here 20 years. I do expect them to be here longer than 3 and even 5. There are plenty of coaches that are in our similar "sphere" that have coaches going on 7 to 10 years. MU, if Buzz leaves, needs to find someone that is a good fit for the long haul. It's not a universal panacea, of course. We saw Majerus leave on his own after 3 years. Dukiet was east coach, KO was east coast, Mike Deane was east coast, Crean was midwest, Buzz from the South.
The only way to get rid of the stepping stone stigma is to keep someone around for a long time and have them not jump at those other offers. As much as I hated Crean pimping the university for more money all the time, I was thrilled that he hung on for 9 years and turned down jobs at bigger schools.
Ners-- Overall I give Buzz a B or B-. I think he has been a double to the gap. He has exceeded my expectations tenfold. I thought he was going to be a strikeout with bat on his shoulder. Very happy I was wrong.
Would love to see him double to the gap to win game, not just keep us up to bat.
Quote from: Goose on March 13, 2011, 08:18:29 PM
Ners--
Top shelf practice facility
NBA arena
Deep pockets
Alums in NBA--players and coach
Great resume of play
BE
Sounds like the big boys to me. Guys like you accept a stepping stone location because you are paranoid. The Packers are far from big boys in NFL circles but believe they do quite well. All the tools are in place with exception of Admin.
You do realize NFL teams get to draft and hand pick their players, right? Far cry from college basketball where recruiting is ultra competitive. There are 15 other Big East teams that can sell the Big East, 8 of which have practice facilities that are as nice as ours..and deep pockets don't mean a thing..and ours aren't nearly as deep as the football playing schools in the Big East...nor as deep as the GTown's, Villanovas, or St. Johns. Lastly, there are about 5 other Big East programs that have more guys playing in the league than MU..and on the national landscape..roughly about 20 more programs with more guys in the league.
MU has made a lot of improvements for sure....all of which were present when Tom Crean chose to leave. The biggest drawback to MU is the lack of talent in Wisconsin..and that MU is 2nd in the eyes of most Wisconsin HS ballers..so even in our own backyard..we are generally considered 2nd best school in WI.
Quote from: DiaperDandy on March 13, 2011, 02:26:21 PM
We do not want Brian Gregory. Trust me. Dude can't coach offense. His teams underachive every year (outside of two years ago when they made the tourney and knocked off WVU) There is no way the team he had this year should not have finished above .500 in conference. Also, if people think Buzz has a hard time developing talent, wait till they see Gregory. Chris Wright was a consensus draft pick after his sophmore year. Dude isn't even on the board anymore. He has regressed under Gregory.
Thank you. It would be a HUGE disappointment if we hired BG to replace Buzz.
All hypothetical though
Buzz was a very good hire.
Some people on this board have what I call "Clemson Football" syndrome: When you think that your program is some national power when really it is not" What kinda of coach did you think we were going to get????
If Buzz leaves it sucks but the program will go on.
Maybe I will Bake the new coach a welcome loaf of bread or something ;D
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 08:22:42 PM
Yes, but you can cut down those odds Ners. If you hire a guy that didn't even know where Milwaukee is (Buzz's words), you have to wonder how long he is for the job. When you hire a guy with Midwest roots, your odds improve that he'll be here for the longer haul. I don't expect someone to be here 20 years. I do expect them to be here longer than 3 and even 5. There are plenty of coaches that are in our similar "sphere" that have coaches going on 7 to 10 years. MU, if Buzz leaves, needs to find someone that is a good fit for the long haul. It's not a universal panacea, of course. We saw Majerus leave on his own after 3 years. Dukiet was east coach, KO was east coast, Mike Deane was east coast, Crean was midwest, Buzz from the South.
The only way to get rid of the stepping stone stigma is to keep someone around for a long time and have them not jump at those other offers. As much as I hated Crean pimping the university for more money all the time, I was thrilled that he hung on for 9 years and turned down jobs at bigger schools.
Hey..we can agree 100% on something today! Good post..it makes a lot of sense and I agree with your sentiments. I certainly do hope Buzz stays at MU a decade..and tend to think he will...and part of me feels that the more a coach feels revered at their job..the harder it is for them to walk away..which is why I'm such a fanboy of Buzz. That may sound glib..but a lot of people work as much for appreciation and recognition as they do money...MU will always compete on the money basis it pays its head coach...I'm not worried about that...but there definitely are easier places to recruit to..and if given a choice to leave for a school that is easier to recruit to..I think loyalty and feeling of appreciation by a fan base are the 2 calling cardds that can retain a coach
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 08:14:08 PM
Part of the problem is we still pretty much are looked at as a stepping stone program..yet some here think this is a destination job that a proven, elite, high major coach would be salivating at coming to. If programs didn't think MU coaches could be pryed away...we wouldn't keep hearing our coaches mentioned in other openings as was the case for KO, Crean and now Buzz.
We can act like a big boy program all we want...but when life and reality keep telling you...not so much...you have to acknowledge your reality. When the Tony Bennetts, Sean Miller's and Anthony Grant's tell you no thanks...it is highly unlikely an Izzo, Pitino, Calipari, Donovan, Self, Roy Williams, Rick Barnes, Mark Turgeon's are going to come knocking on your door.
Obviously Marquette isn't a socalled destination job and never will be. When i look at the landscape of college basketball, there might only be about 15 or so of those "destination jobs" and thus, any university could face the potential of another program stealing away their coach for a myriad of reasons. Hell, around half of the Big East programs alone would be more appealing to coaches than Marquette is.
All we can do if Buzz did leave is try to keep making smart hires like both Crean and Buzz were. I don't care much either if whoever the next MU coach is has a bunch of head coaching experience or not. History has shown than good assistant coaches can come in and do well as a head coach just as much as say some head coach who had a nice run at a mid-major.
There is no exact science for hiring coaches as evidenced by how often what look to be good hires by major conference programs end up resulting in a firing by year 3 or 4. Then on the flip side a guy like Buzz was a fairly surprise hiring and yet he's done better than multiple guys who looked to have better credentials.
Buzz has gotten nice talent from the south. But would it of been easier for him to get Maymon or Blue or Wilson or Smith or Gardner to Arkansas? I am amazed at how people really devalue themselves. Go Big East! Go Marquette! Later with the bending over for state school conferences!
Maybe Buzz will give Todd Rosiak the specific amount of money Arkansas offered him, even though he never discussed the job with them.
Or maybe put it out there that Illinois offered him
their job, when in fact it never happened.
Let's just get Bobby Knight and get this over with
Whats up guys, Arkansas fan here! I am not here to flame but just give you the scoop on what I am hearing over here.
I am just going to state a few things about our program and fans, etc...
-Most fans want Mike Anderson, Turgeon , Tubby Smith then Buzz. Most have seen that his record has slipped each year and are skeptical if they want another coaching hire to be a flop again.
- Our AD says "he will pick the coach." When in reality, the top boosters of our program basically pushed their weight around.
- Arkansas believe it or not has very deep pockets. We were paying Pelphrey 1.3m a year and he didn't do ANYTHING. If we get Anderson he will be making Bill Self type money. The Walton's and Tyson's aren't messing around this time. Obviously the salary depends on the coach, but I've heard we might throw the sink at Self to see if he bites or not given his past interest in coaching at Arkansas.
That's all I have right now. I really would like for us to get a Big East coach of some kind. I mean, it is the "SEC of basketball" BY FAR. You guys would want a SEC football coach to come there right? I have a feeling your coach is safe if the guys before him on the list take what they are offered by us. By the way, do you guys like Buzz? Is he a really good coach? Could he lead you guys to some conference titles or elite 8's? The expectations here are really high so the pressure is on for that home run hire or as close to it as possible.
Thanks guys!
Quote from: crice04 on March 13, 2011, 10:44:29 PM
Whats up guys, Arkansas fan here! I am not here to flame but just give you the scoop on what I am hearing over here.
I am just going to state a few things about our program and fans, etc...
-Most fans want Mike Anderson, Turgeon , Tubby Smith then Buzz. Most have seen that his record has slipped each year and are skeptical if they want another coaching hire to be a flop again.
- Our AD says "he will pick the coach." When in reality, the top boosters of our program basically pushed their weight around.
- Arkansas believe it or not has very deep pockets. We were paying Pelphrey 1.3m a year and he didn't do ANYTHING. If we get Anderson he will be making Bill Self type money. The Walton's and Tyson's aren't messing around this time. Obviously the salary depends on the coach, but I've heard we might throw the sink at Self to see if he bites or not given his past interest in coaching at Arkansas.
That's all I have right now. I really would like for us to get a Big East coach of some kind. I mean, it is the "SEC of basketball" BY FAR. You guys would want a SEC football coach to come there right? I have a feeling your coach is safe if the guys before him on the list take what they are offered by us. By the way, do you guys like Buzz? Is he a really good coach? Could he lead you guys to some conference titles or elite 8's? The expectations here are really high so the pressure is on for that home run hire or as close to it as possible.
Thanks guys!
95% of our fanbase is thrilled with Buzz. 5% are not. His record only declined in each of his 3 seasons due to the coaching change, subsequent transfeers..and some empty recruiting classes under Tom Crean in 2006-2007. He walked in to a great sitation at MU his first year...but after that..he basically had 4 returning players in Year 2...2 of which averaged less than 4ppg as juniors. The fact MU has NOT missed an NCAA due to Tom Crean leaving..and what Buzz was left with in Year 2....he's done a hell of a job.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 10:53:37 PM
95% of our fanbase is thrilled with Buzz. 5% are not. His record only declined in each of his 3 seasons due to the coaching change, subsequent transfeers..and some empty recruiting classes under Tom Crean in 2006-2007. He walked in to a great sitation at MU his first year...but after that..he basically had 4 returning players in Year 2...2 of which averaged less than 4ppg as juniors. The fact MU has NOT missed an NCAA due to Tom Crean leaving..and what Buzz was left with in Year 2....he's done a hell of a job.
Says the resident Buzz Williams fan boi. No offense, Ners. And you don't have any data to back up that 95% claim, and you know it.
Pros
- Buzz says all the right things
- Recruits well (nationally, not just locally)
- Plays a fast paced game with lots of offense
- Wins games
Cons
- High profile transfers of players
- Trouble with consistency/defense
- Still learning how to be an in-game coach.
Now, I'm not going to say that this is how everyone feels, but I think it is a somewhat general summary of things I have read on this message board. I like Buzz as a coach, but no one is perfect. I honestly doubt that Buzz would leave for Arkansas; and I don't mean that as a slight to Arkansas (Buzzism!). Then again, I wouldn't be totally shocked if he did.
Quote from: crice04 on March 13, 2011, 10:44:29 PM
That's all I have right now. I really would like for us to get a Big East coach of some kind. I mean, it is the "SEC of basketball" BY FAR. You guys would want a SEC football coach to come there right? I have a feeling your coach is safe if the guys before him on the list take what they are offered by us. By the way, do you guys like Buzz? Is he a really good coach? Could he lead you guys to some conference titles or elite 8's? The expectations here are really high so the pressure is on for that home run hire or as close to it as possible.
Thanks guys!
I hear Keno is available.
You should try luring St. Mary's Bennett or Butler's coach.
So there is going to be the Bud Walton family from Arkansas bidding for Mike Anderson against the Kroncke family from Missouri, which is another Walton family? This one will be interesting and then you get the chickens involved.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 14, 2011, 05:04:45 AM
Says the resident Buzz Williams fan boi. No offense, Ners. And you don't have any data to back up that 95% claim, and you know it.
Pros
- Buzz says all the right things
- Recruits well (nationally, not just locally)
- Plays a fast paced game with lots of offense
- Wins games
Cons
- High profile transfers of players
- Trouble with consistency/defense
- Still learning how to be an in-game coach.
Now, I'm not going to say that this is how everyone feels, but I think it is a somewhat general summary of things I have read on this message board. I like Buzz as a coach, but no one is perfect. I honestly doubt that Buzz would leave for Arkansas; and I don't mean that as a slight to Arkansas (Buzzism!). Then again, I wouldn't be totally shocked if he did.
No doubt I am the resident Buzz Williams fan boy..and have no shame in having that title. But, the 95% number came from a poll that was conducted in the last month...pertaining to Buzz's performance/or should Buzz be fired? I'll try to dig it up.
But again Hards..we've had a few battles in the past...regarding you being a wrestler by trade...are you really qualified to asses if Buzz is "still learning how to be an in game coach?"
Talk about misusing statistics. You said 95% are "thrilled" with what he is doing - and you base that on 95% not wanting him fired? I don't want Buzz fired, but I am not exactly "thrilled" with what he is doing. I would say I am more "satisfied."
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 14, 2011, 07:59:43 AM
Talk about misusing statistics. You said 95% are "thrilled" with what he is doing - and you base that on 95% not wanting him fired? I don't want Buzz fired, but I am not exactly "thrilled" with what he is doing. I would say I am more "satisfied."
Semantics...but yes..a critical difference between "thrilled" and "satisfied."
For disucssion purposes, would you outline what you are not thrilled about with regard to Buzz's tenure thus far?
Quote from: crice04 on March 13, 2011, 10:44:29 PM
Whats up guys, Arkansas fan here! I am not here to flame but just give you the scoop on what I am hearing over here.
I am just going to state a few things about our program and fans, etc...
-Most fans want Mike Anderson, Turgeon , Tubby Smith then Buzz. Most have seen that his record has slipped each year and are skeptical if they want another coaching hire to be a flop again.
- Our AD says "he will pick the coach." When in reality, the top boosters of our program basically pushed their weight around.
- Arkansas believe it or not has very deep pockets. We were paying Pelphrey 1.3m a year and he didn't do ANYTHING. If we get Anderson he will be making Bill Self type money. The Walton's and Tyson's aren't messing around this time. Obviously the salary depends on the coach, but I've heard we might throw the sink at Self to see if he bites or not given his past interest in coaching at Arkansas.
That's all I have right now. I really would like for us to get a Big East coach of some kind. I mean, it is the "SEC of basketball" BY FAR. You guys would want a SEC football coach to come there right? I have a feeling your coach is safe if the guys before him on the list take what they are offered by us. By the way, do you guys like Buzz? Is he a really good coach? Could he lead you guys to some conference titles or elite 8's? The expectations here are really high so the pressure is on for that home run hire or as close to it as possible.
Thanks guys!
Welcome. Buzz has proven to be a solid coach with some question marks still in year 3. I think he would recruit very well at Arkansas as he has recruited very well at Marquette in unfamiliar recruiting territory up in the midwest. The top 100 big man has eluded him here. Is an excellent offensive coach, imo. He has produced efficient offense at MU, MU protects the ball very well considering the whole body of work. Defense is where he struggles. MU's defense has regressed each year and getting beat on the ball and help d and rotation has hurt us all year we do play spurts of good d though. Buzz doesn't have ideal length at the 4 and 5 position consistently though. He's a quirky character who I'm sure you guys would gobble up down there. D would have to improve to get consistent winning for a conference title. He's only 39, so much potential for growth with Buzz....hope he stays, I'd like to see where he can move this program, good or bad.
Quote from: Ners on March 14, 2011, 08:12:43 AM
Semantics...but yes..a critical difference between "thrilled" and "satisfied."
For disucssion purposes, would you outline what you are not thrilled about with regard to Buzz's tenure thus far?
And tell me who else you would have hired and would have taken the job at MU?
And provide me your qualifications for being able to critique college hoops. Wrestlers need not apply.
Edited your post Ners to save you some time because this is where we're headed right?
Quote from: 2002MUalum on March 14, 2011, 08:29:53 AM
Edited your post Ners to save you some time because this is where we're headed right?
Not sure what your point is 2002....but no..I wasn't going down the road of "if not Buzz, then who." With regard to the wrestler comment...Hards and I battled a few times..he called me out..I called him out...no hard feelings....but...if you are being objective...is a wrestler by trade really able to assess if a basketball coach is improving as an in game coach?
Hell..every single coach could be critiqued and stated they needed to improve. Until a coach wins 100% of their games, there will always be fans who rip the coach. I tend to look at the macro level, instead of dissecting to the micro level. Some fans live and die on every game and the outcome of each game determines the goodness or badness of their team's coach. Some knee jerk, others take a big picture view. Many here felt there was no way this team makes the NCAA...but where are we? In the NCAA.
Big picture view...how many objective MU fans would have thought after the Big 3 graduated...and the relatively thin recruiting classes behind them - that MU wouldn't miss a beat and go the the NCAA each of the following 2 years?
Quote from: Ners on March 14, 2011, 08:12:43 AM
For disucssion purposes, would you outline what you are not thrilled about with regard to Buzz's tenure thus far?
Sure, but we have discussed them here repeatedly. I do not like the transfer issues like Maymon and Smith, but that isn't entirely his fault. However, the Newbill issue was terrible. That should have never occured.
As for bench coaching, I think the defensive issues that we have had since he has been our coach are ridiculous and need to be corrected.
However, I like the guy, he obviously is a very good recruiter, and seems to be learning on the job. Therefore that is why I am "satisfied" but not "thrilled."
And you can counter this all you want, but I am not really going to engage in discussion around these items because I have discussed them all repeatedly in other threads and don't need to rehash them again.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on March 13, 2011, 09:43:54 PM
Let's just get Bobby Knight and get this over with
Good idea--I'd take Knight in a heartbeat--even if he is about 70.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on March 14, 2011, 05:04:45 AM
Cons
- High profile transfers of players
Curious as to what you consider a "high profile" transfer versus, I suppose, a "low profile" transfer.
Was Maymon any more "high profile" than ODB?
Was Roseboro more "high profile" than Dameon Mason?
Was Reggie Smith more high profile than Shannon Smith? Or Alton Mason?
Just trying to figure out what makes MU's more recent transfers especially high profile.
I'm not sure if "high-profile" is more about the players, or the timing.
Having mid-year transfers raises more eyebrows than ones in the summer, when they usually occur.
Was Newbill more high profile than Saunders? Don't forget Amo, Mort, Bell, Matthews, Christian, Menard, Howard. Those must have been 'traditional' transfers. I don't blame Christopherson or Mbakwe on either coach. Coaching transition transfers don't really count to me. Reggie Smith is not all that high profile. Jeronne.....just an unfortunate situation all around. This should be an interesting coaching opening. If Buzz says after the tourney is over that he has no interest and repeats his line about staying at MU as long as they will have them, then I think that the only ones we will need to worry about are A&M and Texas.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 14, 2011, 09:38:11 AM
I'm not sure if "high-profile" is more about the players, or the timing.
Having mid-year transfers raises more eyebrows than ones in the summer, when they usually occur.
OK.
So did the transfers of Alton Mason, Brandon Bell, James Mathews and Niv Berkowitz also raise eyebrows more than others?
If someone were to complain that MU's had
too many transfers under Buzz, I could understand the gripe. Not sure I'd be as equally concerned, but at least I could understand. But for the life of me I can't figure out how anyone would consider Maymon, Smith, Roseboro, etc. as any more "high profile" than ODB, Mason, Amo, etc.
Quote from: tower912 on March 14, 2011, 09:39:42 AM
Was Newbill more high profile than Saunders? Don't forget Amo, Mort, Bell, Matthews, Christian, Menard, Howard. Those must have been 'traditional' transfers. I don't blame Christopherson or Mbakwe on either coach. Coaching transition transfers don't really count to me. Reggie Smith is not all that high profile. Jeronne.....just an unfortunate situation all around. This should be an interesting coaching opening. If Buzz says after the tourney is over that he has no interest and repeats his line about staying at MU as long as they will have them, then I think that the only ones we will need to worry about are A&M and Texas.
I'd add Oklahoma to that list as well, along with the 5 schools that can steal every coach (Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, North Carolina)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 14, 2011, 09:03:31 AM
Sure, but we have discussed them here repeatedly. I do not like the transfer issues like Maymon and Smith, but that isn't entirely his fault. However, the Newbill issue was terrible. That should have never occured.
As for bench coaching, I think the defensive issues that we have had since he has been our coach are ridiculous and need to be corrected.
However, I like the guy, he obviously is a very good recruiter, and seems to be learning on the job. Therefore that is why I am "satisfied" but not "thrilled."
And you can counter this all you want, but I am not really going to engage in discussion around these items because I have discussed them all repeatedly in other threads and don't need to rehash them again.
Solid points. I've also indicated I didn't like the whole Newbill fiasco - though I do believe there was a side agreement..that went bad. Regardless, the moral of that is to not engage in side deal recruiting practices.
Agree our defense hasn't been great and has room for improvement. Beyond that, I don't have many complaints, and I'm personally thrilled with the job Buzz has done. Think the needle is pointing up talent-wise..and the next couple of years we stand a very good chance of returning to an upper echelon Big East team..potential Sweet 16/Elite 8 qualifier.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2011, 10:00:55 AM
OK.
So did the transfers of Alton Mason, Brandon Bell, James Mathews and Niv Berkowitz also raise eyebrows more than others?
If someone were to complain that MU's had too many transfers under Buzz, I could understand the gripe. Not sure I'd be as equally concerned, but at least I could understand. But for the life of me I can't figure out how anyone would consider Maymon, Smith, Roseboro, etc. as any more "high profile" than ODB, Mason, Amo, etc.
Maymon was one of the highest ranked players we've seen transfer, certainly the highest-rated in-state player to transfer. I'm not sure, but I don't think Wisconsin has seen a player ranked as high as Maymon ever transfer. Maymon came from a school in the backyard of our biggest in-state rival, and news of his recruitment and subsequent transfer thus generated significantly more news in both the Milwaukee and Madison markets than, say, Kevin Menard or Neil Plank leaving their respective teams.
Does that help you figure out why at least one of those players had a higher profile?
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 14, 2011, 10:46:39 AM
Maymon was the highest ranked player we've seen transfer, certainly the highest-rated in-state player to transfer. I'm not sure, but I don't think Wisconsin has seen a player ranked as high as Maymon ever transfer. Maymon came from a school in the backyard of our biggest in-state rival, and news of his recruitment and subsequent transfer thus generated significantly more news in both the Milwaukee and Madison markets than, say, Kevin Menard or Neil Plank leaving their respective teams.
Does that help you figure out why at least one of those players had a higher profile?
Sam Okey?
Quote from: jmayer1 on March 14, 2011, 11:02:23 AM
Sam Okey?
Maybe--I though Maymon was ranked higher, but it might be Okey.
Still--his transfer was higher profile than Neil Plank as well--and for obvious reasons.
Call me stupid but why would Buzz even consider leaving even if he was offered the job. I'm fairly sure MU is way more basketball royalty than Arkansas and its in the premiere basketball conference. I got Crean peacing out for Indiana, Indiana has more basketball prestige and its Big Ten which is almost Big East level.
The SEC is a dropoff from BE, B10, ACC and B12 at least thats my impression. Then would it be solely the cash? I feel like we could match whatever offer Arkansas puts forth no? I dunno I'm very skeptical that Buzz would wanna leave a team on its way up with a team that still needs some work and there is a lot of pressure. For now all Buzz has to do at MU is keep us dancing and he'll be off the hot seat.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 14, 2011, 10:46:39 AM
Maymon was the highest ranked player we've seen transfer, certainly the highest-rated in-state player to transfer. I'm not sure, but I don't think Wisconsin has seen a player ranked as high as Maymon ever transfer. Maymon came from a school in the backyard of our biggest in-state rival, and news of his recruitment and subsequent transfer thus generated significantly more news in both the Milwaukee and Madison markets than, say, Kevin Menard or Neil Plank leaving their respective teams.
Does that help you figure out why at least one of those players had a higher profile?
Judging the significance, or even the high-profile nature, of a transfer by where the kid was ranked coming out of high school is silly. Especially compared to games played, games started, points scored, etc.
But even then, you're still wrong.
Dameon Mason was higher rated out of high school than Maymon, and certainly more well regarded nationally (pretty sure that was him I saw playing alongside LeBron James in the Roundball Classic).
Add to that fact that Mason had started 44 games at MU when he transferred - 35 more than Maymon
played - and there's really no comparison. Likewise with ODB. He may not have been as high in the all important high school rankings, but he was a returning starter from a 26-7 team that had legit (obviously) aspirations of a deep tourney run.
The chicken littles around here may have tried to make a bigger deal of Maymon, but Mason and ODB were by far more significant - and higher profile - transfers.
And given that Maymon wasn't even recruited by UW, I don't see the whole rivalry angle you're trying to pitch.
But you're right, it was a bigger deal than Kevin Menard. Can't argue with that outstanding point.
Right now, MU is the better program and in a better situation...but Arkansas has a higher upside than MU. It is close to Buzz's recruiting areas. They also traditionally pull a lot of kids out of Memphis. The facilities are better than MU's, and don't count out the stability that a football team in a BCS conference provides. It may be the SEC, and therefore not as strong at basketball, but they are a wealthy conference and Arkansas is going to be there fore a long time. Not sure we can say the same about MU and the BE.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 14, 2011, 11:10:39 AM
Maybe--I though Maymon was ranked higher, but it might be Okey.
Still--his transfer was higher profile than Neil Plank as well--and for obvious reasons.
Okey was a McDonald's AA.
Not sure about rankings but Okey was a McDonald's All-American. I'd say that's higher profile no matter what the ranking is.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2011, 11:22:59 AM
Judging the significance, or even the high-profile nature, of a transfer by where the kid was ranked coming out of high school is silly. Especially compared to games played, games started, points scored, etc.
Okay--lets take two players who have exactly the same profile at Marquette: Tyshawn Taylor and Brett Roseboro. At the time both players left--their stats were identical. Same number of games played (zero). Same number of games started (zero). Same number of points scored (zero). Every stat in every category--absolutely equal.
Wouldn't you admit that Tyshawn Taylor's profile was just a tad bit higher? And wasn't it based on factors that you call silly (e.g. HS rank).
I now believe that you have absolutely no desire to understand why some people might think that Jeronne Maymon was a high-profile transfer.
You can go your way and believe that Maymon was no more notable than the departure of any other player over the years.
I'm going to stick with my belief that based on the amount of attention that his recruitment, career, and departure have raised in media throughout the state, that he defines a high-profile transfer.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 14, 2011, 12:46:00 PM
Okay--lets take two players who have exactly the same profile at Marquette: Tyshawn Taylor and Brett Roseboro. At the time both players left--their stats were identical. Same number of games played (zero). Same number of games started (zero). Same number of points scored (zero). Every stat in every category--absolutely equal.
Wouldn't you admit that Tyshawn Taylor's profile was just a tad bit higher? And wasn't it based on factors that you call silly (e.g. HS rank).
I now believe that you have absolutely no desire to understand why some people might think that Jeronne Maymon was a high-profile transfer.
You can go your way and believe that Maymon was no more notable than the departure of any other player over the years.
I'm going to stick with my belief that based on the amount of attention that his recruitment, career, and departure have raised in media throughout the state, that he defines a high-profile transfer.
Classic.
You initially claimed that what made Maymon a "higher-profile" transfer than the others I mentioned was because he was the highest ranked high school player to transfer not only at MU, but in all of Wisconsin (as if these somehow are the sole determining factors).
That, as we now know, is incorrect. Maymon was not the highest ranking transfer at either MU or UW. But rather than simply owning up to your mistake, you change the issue, introduce irrelevant arguments - Taylor vs Roseboro - and intentionally misstate what others have clearly stated. Pray tell, where have I ever said "Maymon was no more notable than the departure of
any other player over the years."
Obviously I didn't. But it's a standard rhetorical trick of yours, isn't it?
It's pretty simple, SJS. I asked why anyone would consider Buzz's transfers, such as Maymon, any more high profile than those that occurred under prior coaches. I then named players and gave arguments their whose transfers were equally, or more, high profile as Maymon's. You, apparently, don't want to address that. Probably because you know you're wrong but, as we already know, can't admit it.
Best wishes.
Quote from: Aughnanure on March 14, 2011, 10:35:35 AM
I'd add Oklahoma to that list as well, along with the 5 schools that can steal every coach (Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, North Carolina)
No Indiana on that list?
Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2011, 11:26:54 AM
Okey was a McDonald's AA.
With serious recruiting attention from North Carolina. One of the very few Wisconsin recruiting battles they lost.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2011, 01:10:37 PM
Classic.
You initially claimed that what made Maymon a "higher-profile" transfer than the others I mentioned was because he was the highest ranked high school player to transfer not only at MU, but in all of Wisconsin (as if these somehow are the sole determining factors). That, as we now know, is incorrect. Maymon was not the highest ranking transfer at either MU or UW.
This is classic nitpick. Could it be that in some rankings Maymon actually is rated higher? Mason? I'm sure you can find some rating service that has Mason higher, and I can find ones that have Maymon higher.
But because this is important to you, I'm happy to edit my initial post to to be more accurate. I will not claim Maymon is
the highest ranked player ever to transfer--merely
one of the highest ranked.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25600.msg286254#msg286254 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25600.msg286254#msg286254)
Happy now?
Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2011, 01:10:37 PM
you change the issue, introduce irrelevant arguments - Taylor vs Roseboro
Its only irrelevant because it proves you wrong.
I specifically brought this comparison into the discussion prove the folly of your your comment that it was "silly" to use HS rank to define whether a player's departure was high-profile. The Taylor/Roseboro comparison controls for college play, and proves that your "silly" comment was off base--HS rankings
do impact whether a player is high-profile.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2011, 01:10:37 PM
- and intentionally misstate what others have clearly stated. Pray tell, where have I ever said "Maymon was no more notable than the departure of any other player over the years."
Obviously I didn't. But it's a standard rhetorical trick of yours, isn't it?
Here's what you asked:
Curious as to what you consider a "high profile" transfer versus, I suppose, a "low profile" transfer.
Was Maymon any more "high profile" than ODB?
. . . I guess I assumed your choices for comparison were random players from the past. If you substitute "Kevin Menard" for "ODB" it becomes a whole lot easier to understand the big differences between a high-profile and low-profile transfer.
In a follow-up post, you said:
But for the life of me I can't figure out how anyone would consider Maymon, Smith, Roseboro, etc. as any more "high profile" than ODB, Mason, Amo, etc.Again, your choice of examples makes it VERY hard to address your initial question. I think it might have been easier for you to understand if instead of ODB, Mason, and Amo, you used Menard, Berkowitz, and Hester.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2011, 01:10:37 PM
It's pretty simple, SJS. I asked why anyone would consider Buzz's transfers, such as Maymon, any more high profile than those that occurred under prior coaches.
No. Sorry. You didn't ask that.
You asked, "Curious as to what you consider a "high profile" transfer versus, I suppose, a "low profile" transfer."
Your words.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2011, 01:10:37 PM
I then named players and gave arguments their whose transfers were equally, or more, high profile as Maymon's.
How is posting a list of players that you already admit are "equally, or more, high profile" than Maymon going help you understand why someone would call Maymon "high profile"?
You questioned what makes a transfer "high profile" versus "low profile"
I thought it might help you understand to bring in a "low-profile" player rather than another "high-profile" player.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 14, 2011, 01:10:37 PM
You, apparently, don't want to address that. Probably because you know you're wrong but, as we already know, can't admit it.
Best wishes.
I'm happy to address it. Its just that its not a particularly helpful or useful comparison.
If you want to understand the difference between high-profile and low-profile, it helps to have an example of each--not two high-profile examples.
Quote from: jmayer1 on March 14, 2011, 11:02:23 AM
Sam Okey?
Okey had alcohol and drug issues which Dick Bennett called him out on. That was a big reason for the transfer. He didn't want to put up with Bennett's demands. The kid also had the weight of the world on him because of the typical Wisconsin Badger fan provincialism that so many put on these kids, especially back then. He was called God by a number of fans and that was only the beginning of the ridiculous fawning.
I still crack up at this Facebook page
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2224452550&topic=2135
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 14, 2011, 03:06:09 PM
Okey had alcohol and drug issues which Dick Bennett called him out on. That was a big reason for the transfer. He didn't want to put up with Bennett's demands. The kid also had the weight of the world on him because of the typical Wisconsin Badger fan provincialism that so many put on these kids, especially back then.
Back then Wisconsin basketball was awful...no history of success whatsoever. Okey was treated like Wisconsin's version of Larry Bird. The program's savior from a small town (Cassville) where the expectations way exceeded the reality. Anthony Pieper had a similar background, but was MUCH more well grounded - his dad was his basketball coach. Plus he was never treated like a savior...he was a solid prospect that would fit in nicely on a strong team.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 14, 2011, 10:46:39 AM
Maymon was one of the highest ranked players we've seen transfer, certainly the highest-rated in-state player to transfer. I'm not sure, but I don't think Wisconsin has seen a player ranked as high as Maymon ever transfer. Maymon came from a school in the backyard of our biggest in-state rival, and news of his recruitment and subsequent transfer thus generated significantly more news in both the Milwaukee and Madison markets than, say, Kevin Menard or Neil Plank leaving their respective teams.
Does that help you figure out why at least one of those players had a higher profile?
We should be happy though that Maymon transferred, not bothered by it. He's overrated as a basketball talent and a chronic complainer.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 14, 2011, 03:12:08 PM
Back then Wisconsin basketball was awful...no history of success whatsoever. Okey was treated like Wisconsin's version of Larry Bird. The program's savior from a small town (Cassville) where the expectations way exceeded the reality. Anthony Pieper had a similar background, but was MUCH more well grounded - his dad was his basketball coach. Plus he was never treated like a savior...he was a solid prospect that would fit in nicely on a strong team.
Agree entirely
I am not happy Maymon transferred. Who knows if Buzz could have coached him up. I am not big on cutting bait or rejoicing when a kid transfers until proven otherwise. Granted Maymon did nothing this year but down the road he might be a force.
We liked him enough to recruit him and I would like to have had him stay. Even if it kept VB on good terms within the program.
Quote from: El Duderino on March 14, 2011, 03:15:53 PM
We should be happy though that Maymon transferred, not bothered by it. He's overrated as a basketball talent and a chronic complainer.
His father's contribution to the program has certainly been missed, though.