MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on March 10, 2011, 10:45:16 PM
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Remember how disappointed everyone around here was when he turned us down?
http://www2.turnto10.com/sports/2011/mar/10/pc-separation-talks-davis-ar-420039/
Sources tell NBC 10's Frank Carpano that Providence College has started negotiations to sever ties with head coach Keno Davis.
The sources said talks will continue into the weekend and that an official announcement is expected Monday.
Athletic Director Bob Driscoll left the Big East Tournament in New York City Thursday morning to return to Providence.
Davis has five years left on his contract.
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Didn't know he had five years left on contract, wow.
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People in Rhode Island have been sick and tired of Providence's less than mediocre performances over the past few years now. Cutting ties with Keno Davis will rejuvenate this team, as their hope is winning immediately. Although I am a MU fan, I would someday like to see teams such as Providence, South Florida and DePaul make a push out of the basement of the Big East to get a league literally full of competition, and PC will be taking its first step toward that with Keno's release.
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The words on the radio was that it wasn't as much as the on-court performance failed to meet expectations as much as the off-the-court problems painted a black eye on the program.
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What off-court problems?
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If you want to see Providence and DePaul and Seton Hall escape the bottom of the league, than by that rationale, someone has to drop down to the bottom. And frankly, I don't see any of the top 10 programs doing that. We are right in the middle of teams who could easily drop down if the wrong coach/wrong situation occurs. I say that only because we all know who we are, and MU is not physically located on the east coast. I think 'nova could drop off if Wright left or if the wrong coach came in.
That's the sad/beauty of the BEast...It's a beast.
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What a mess that seems to be in Providence. Looks like Marquette dodged a real bullet with Davis.
I wasn't around here after Crean left and didn't follow close the hiring process, but i thought i heard here that we offered Keno the job before Buzz. Is that true? If so, did he ever say why he turned down the MU job for Providence?
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HMMMMMM... he came in same time as Buzz.
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Aren't they pulling the trigger a little early, it has only been THREE years.
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HMMMMMM... he came in same time as Buzz.
Sometimes the program makes the coach......
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HMMMMMM... he came in same time as Buzz.
So Cottingham made the right choice.
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Wait a minute...who wanted Keno Davis? I didn't. Did we offer him? I hope not!
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Wait a minute...who wanted Keno Davis? I didn't. Did we offer him? I hope not!
Yeah, I don't remember a big push for that guy from anyone, though I may be mistaken. Before Providence, he had one great year with a previous coach's players. Personally, I would have wanted to see him build his own program or apprentice at a big time school as a top assistant before we hired him.
OTOH, he's got the pedigree and is young enough that he will land on his feet and work his way back up through the ranks.
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He was not offerred the job at MU. Buzz was the only one offerred. Were there other candidates? Yes. Were others offerred? No.
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Crean to PC.
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IIRC, other candidates were Bennett, Gregory, Lowery, Miller. And I think coach K called and begged but Cottingham refused him. ::) Miller is the only one who has been close to as successful as Buzz these last 3 years.
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yeah, the others on the list havent seen real success as of yet. I think Bennett is slowly making progress at UVA though, which is a very tough situation.
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PC BB, toughest job in the BE.
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Crean to PC.
Nice.
It would be hard to argue if he got fired. His teams are very talented and offensively gifted but there's absolutely no effort on the defensive end and that's coaching.
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Remember how disappointed everyone around here was when he turned us down?
Can you please post the links from all those who expressed disappointment that he turned us down.
I remember some concern that Cottingham should have searched a bit longer, but I don't recall anybody (no less "everybody") who was disappointed that Davis turned us down.
What I saw was this:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8264.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8007.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8302.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8690.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8694.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=7885.0
I'm having a very hard time accepting your comment that "everyone" was disappointed we didn't hire Davis.
At best, a few were disappointed we moved so quickly on Buzz, and didn't interview Davis. But that's a long way from your claim that everyone was disappointed.
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Can you please post the links from all those who expressed disappointment that he turned us down.
I remember some concern that Cottingham should have searched a bit longer, but I don't recall anybody (no less "everybody") who was disappointed that Davis turned us down.
Have to agree with Another84 here. I recall quite a few posts saying that at least Providence hired Davis (implying that we got less with Buzz). I also remember hearing a radio station in Milwaukee saying even Providence hired Davis whilst Marquette got Williams.
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Shouldn't PC wait a couple more years before judging him. Thought 5 years was the standard.
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Have to agree with Another84 here. I recall quite a few posts saying that at least Providence hired Davis (implying that we got less with Buzz). I also remember hearing a radio station in Milwaukee saying even Providence hired Davis whilst Marquette got Williams.
Well, maybe you can post the links to all those Davis supporters.
I looked, and I simply didn't find "quite a few" posts here that expressed support for Davis. At best, I found a handful of comments that suggested that we pulled the trigger too quickly and should have at least interviewed Davis--but that's a far cry from "everyone" being disappointed that we didn't hire him, as Another84 asserted.
I'm sorry, but the fact of the matter is that there simply wasn't the outpouring of love for Davis that you and Another84 suggest.
I think your memory has been clouded by time.
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Shouldn't PC wait a couple more years before judging him. Thought 5 years was the standard.
PC: a BB coaching graveyard.
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Whatever happened to Marvin "Bad News" Barnes?
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PC: a BB coaching graveyard.
Rick Pitino, Rick Barnes and Pete Gillen may beg to differ.
As for Keno, pretty sure MU never seriously spoke with him, much less offered him the job. There were some here who certainly wanted him in the discussion - and praised PC for hiring him - but I don't recall much of an outcry for him.
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Well, maybe you can post the links to all those Davis supporters.
I looked, and I simply didn't find "quite a few" posts here that expressed support for Davis. At best, I found a handful of comments that suggested that we pulled the trigger too quickly and should have at least interviewed Davis--but that's a far cry from "everyone" being disappointed that we didn't hire him, as Another84 asserted.
I'm sorry, but the fact of the matter is that there simply wasn't the outpouring of love for Davis that you and Another84 suggest.
I think your memory has been clouded by time.
It's easier to just say "everybody" and shove it in "everybody's" face.
Buzz Williams rules.
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Davis was coach of the the year at Drek before screwin' himself over by takin' this gig.
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Crean to PC.
"It's Providence, it's Providence"
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Yeah I know he was coach of the year...in the MVC. Then they lost in the first round to WKU. And he took a job hundreds of miles away from his recruiting base. Good payday for him but my guess is that he's at Bradley next year which is probably where he belongs.
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Rick Pitino, Rick Barnes and Pete Gillen may beg to differ.
As for Keno, pretty sure MU never seriously spoke with him, much less offered him the job. There were some here who certainly wanted him in the discussion - and praised PC for hiring him - but I don't recall much of an outcry for him.
Not to mention Dave Gavitt. I think he did something meaningful after leaving PC.
Whatever happened to Marvin "Bad News" Barnes?
PC retired his jersey in 2009:
http://www.projo.com/pc/content/sp_bkc_pcjo09_03-09-08_JD9AE66_v6.33c34b2.html
It would have been extremely interesting had the Spirits of St. Louis been part of the ABA-NBA merger. In addition to Barnes, they had some great basketball names--Maurice Lucas, Caldwell Jones, ML Carr, Don Chaney and Moses Malone--and Bob Costas doing the play-by-play.
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Not to mention Dave Gavitt. I think he did something meaningful after leaving PC.
PC retired his jersey in 2009:
http://www.projo.com/pc/content/sp_bkc_pcjo09_03-09-08_JD9AE66_v6.33c34b2.html
It would have been extremely interesting had the Spirits of St. Louis been part of the ABA-NBA merger. In addition to Barnes, they had some great basketball names--Maurice Lucas, Caldwell Jones, ML Carr, Don Chaney and Moses Malone--and Bob Costas doing the play-by-play.
thanks for the info. That would have been one bad-ass team in st. louis - a lot of hard fouls for sure - drive the lane at your own risk. Of course, Barnes had that fear of flying out west because he thought that jet planes were time machines whenever your arrival time was before the departure time.
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Rick Pitino, Rick Barnes and Pete Gillen may beg to differ.
As for Keno, pretty sure MU never seriously spoke with him, much less offered him the job. There were some here who certainly wanted him in the discussion - and praised PC for hiring him - but I don't recall much of an outcry for him.
Obviously, they got out, didn't they. I think they agree with me.
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Obviously, they got out, didn't they. I think they agree with me.
That makes no sense.
Obviously if these guys were able to have success at Providence and then move on to more presitgious and better paying positions, then it's anything but a graveyard.
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If it was such a great job they'd still be there.
It was a different BE back then. There are now 16 teams stretching into the midwest. PC was the little school that slew the giants back then. Now it's a small Catholic school with no football and without the resources (natural recruiting base and cash) to compete.
Gillen, Barnes and Pitino got out when the getting was good. Why do you think Davis has an 8 year deal? PC has to overpay because of all the disadvantages.
Now it's two coaches fired in 3 years. Not that it can't be done. But it's much harder to do at PC.
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Sportscenter says it is official. He is out.
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So, what you're sayin' is there's a lot of similarities between PC and MU.
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So much for the argument that the school needs to give a new coach at least 5 years. Obviously this Jesuit school did not think so. Some say he had 5 years left on his contract. Wow!
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I think your memory has been clouded by time.
Classic insulting post by 84. Just rude quite honestly. ::)
There were plenty of outlets linking Keno Davis to the Marquette job. And, yes, there were people saying we should give him a look.
Anyway, I spent maybe 3 minutes looking up various places where people stated Davis as a potential candidate for the job plus posters who said we shoud look at him....
http://thewarrior.org/2008/04/01/april-fools-nope-player-confirms-crean-to-leave-marquette/
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8694.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8007.0
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/31869834.html?page=1#comments
http://www.wisn.com/sports/15766396/detail.html
http://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/creanleaves.html
(http://thewarrior.org/2008/04/01/april-fools-nope-player-confirms-crean-to-leave-marquette/
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8694.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8007.0
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/31869834.html?page=1#comments
http://www.wisn.com/sports/15766396/detail.html
http://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/creanleaves.html)
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It's all about the situation. We've been over this a million times. If Keno comes to MU how does he do? If Buzz goes to PC, how does he do? If KO never left MU, what would have happened? If MU hired someone other than Hank after Al left, what happens? Impossible to tell. This is idea that coach X was fired elsewhere so he wouldn't have done well here is pure speculation because no one knows that answer....and vice versa (see KO's career)
Bellichek went to Cleveland and they canned him 4 years later. Did Bellichek suddenly become a better coach a few years later or was the situation different?
Rumors of Sendek to PC and a few others out there.
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If you look back at the situation, you had one guy who was just named the National COY and another guy who left UNO after one less than sensational season and who wasn't accompanying Crean to IU for reasons we didn't know. Of course at the time Davis would seem the more attractive candidate. Of course fans would probably have rather seen him hired than Buzz, who we basically knew almost nothing about. Fortunately (well I think most of us think fortunately) the administration did know about Buzz and I think they made a wise choice, though it is reasonable to argue with whatever selection process they used.
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If you look back at the situation, you had one guy who was just named the National COY and another guy who left UNO after one less than sensational season and who wasn't accompanying Crean to IU for reasons we didn't know.
I think anyone who saw it that way was unwilling/unable to look at the situation very deeply. Keno was just as inexperienced as Buzz, and built his rep on a magical season coaching a bunch of guys recruited and developed under his old man. He was no less of a gamble than Buzz.
And all indications are that Buzz would be accompanying Crean to IU had he not been offered the head coaching gig at MU.
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Classic insulting post by 84. Just rude quite honestly. ::)
There were plenty of outlets linking Keno Davis to the Marquette job. And, yes, there were people saying we should give him a look.
Anyway, I spent maybe 3 minutes looking up various places where people stated Davis as a potential candidate for the job plus posters who said we shoud look at him....
http://thewarrior.org/2008/04/01/april-fools-nope-player-confirms-crean-to-leave-marquette/
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8694.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8007.0
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/31869834.html?page=1#comments
http://www.wisn.com/sports/15766396/detail.html
http://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/creanleaves.html
(http://thewarrior.org/2008/04/01/april-fools-nope-player-confirms-crean-to-leave-marquette/
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8694.0
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8007.0
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/31869834.html?page=1#comments
http://www.wisn.com/sports/15766396/detail.html
http://onmilwaukee.com/sports/articles/creanleaves.html)
At the risk of insulting you further, I see a big difference between each of these three positions:
a) identifying Keno Davis as a possible target
b) suggesting that Keno Davis should have at least been considered/interviewed
c) Expressing disappointment that Keno Davis turned us down.
Even the links you provide suggest that there were only a handful of people that preferred Davis--not a majority, and certainly not anywhere close to "everyone."
If you claim that you remember that "everyone" was disappointed, you're simply not remembering correctly. I'm not trying to insult you--that's just a simple statement of fact.
Fact is, not everyone was disappointed that Davis wasn't hired, and some were pleased that Buzz was the choice.
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It's all about the situation. We've been over this a million times. If Keno comes to MU how does he do? If Buzz goes to PC, how does he do? If KO never left MU, what would have happened? If MU hired someone other than Hank after Al left, what happens? Impossible to tell. This is idea that coach X was fired elsewhere so he wouldn't have done well here is pure speculation because no one knows that answer....and vice versa (see KO's career)
Ummm ... obviously we can't say what Keno would have done at MU. But what we can say is he took over a difficult situation at PC three years ago and today leaves behind a even worse situation. When a program gets worse under a coach's tutelage, it's typically a sign that guy wasn't a very good coach.
Bellichek went to Cleveland and they canned him 4 years later. Did Bellichek suddenly become a better coach a few years later or was the situation different?
Yes, Belicheck has gone on record as saying he made plenty of mistakes at Cleveland and is today a better coach because of that experience. Do you believe he's the same coach today he was in Cleveland? Do you think the only difference between him today and him in 1995 is the situation he's in?
Also, it's not much of an analogy with Keno. Belicheck took over a team that had won three games the season before, doubled their win total the next year and had them 11-5 by his fourth season. Keno never showed that kind of improvement at PC.
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So much for the argument that the school needs to give a new coach at least 5 years. Obviously this Jesuit school did not think so. Some say he had 5 years left on his contract. Wow!
It's a Dominican school and it is 5 years.
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Fact is, not everyone was disappointed that Davis wasn't hired, and some were pleased that Buzz was the choice.
I never stated everyone was disappointed that Davis wasn't hired. I believe I said there were plenty of posts about him being hired. I really don't think Another's posts was really stating that literally everyone was asking for him to be hired. What he was stating that people did around here and elsewhere that should be looked at. And that Buzz has worked out much better for us that Keno for Providence.
That is how I read his post.
You asked for examples and I gave them. And now "fact is", you say, not everyone was disappointed that Davis wasn't hired. I certainly would not argue that EVERYONE wanted Keno. Though let's not pretend that nearly no one asked for him to be interviewed either.
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I think this was just his third year, but not positive.
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Yes, Belicheck has gone on record as saying he made plenty of mistakes at Cleveland and is today a better coach because of that experience. Do you believe he's the same coach today he was in Cleveland? Do you think the only difference between him today and him in 1995 is the situation he's in?
Also, it's not much of an analogy with Keno. Belicheck took over a team that had won three games the season before, doubled their win total the next year and had them 11-5 by his fourth season. Keno never showed that kind of improvement at PC.
The difference...a guy named Tom Brady. He didn't have one of those in Cleveland. Is he a better coach now than in Cleveland...sure hope so. Experience does wonders for people. Is he THAT much better or was the situation a lot different? Better players, Hall of Fame QB, etc? Note that Bill had one winning season in his career prior to Brady becoming a starter....coincidence?
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Did anybody think Providence had some great talent? I actually did. Keno Davis was over his head, though. He took that Drake team, which was built by his father, on a nice run. But he was kind of like Mike Davis...not ready for prime time.
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The difference...a guy named Tom Brady. He didn't have one of those in Cleveland. Is he a better coach now than in Cleveland...sure hope so. Experience does wonders for people. Is he THAT much better or was the situation a lot different? Better players, Hall of Fame QB, etc? Note that Bill had one winning season in his career prior to Brady becoming a starter....coincidence?
I don't want to turn this into a football debate, so I'll say one more thing and stop.
It goes without saying that a team with a HOF quarterback is going to fare better than one without.
That said, your "it's Tom Brady" argument would be much stronger had Belichick not gone 11-5 a few years back with Matt Cassell, who to that point had thrown a grand total of 39 NFL passes in three seasons of carrying a clipboard.
Remind me what this has to do with Keno? Are you suggesting it was the situation at Providence, and not how he administered the program, that's led to his firing?
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Did anybody think Providence had some great talent? I actually did. Keno Davis was over his head, though. He took that Drake team, which was built by his father, on a nice run. But he was kind of like Mike Davis...not ready for prime time.
I think losing/kicking off that stud Jermaine Peterson really hurt Providence. That guy was awesome.
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The difference...a guy named Tom Brady. He didn't have one of those in Cleveland. Is he a better coach now than in Cleveland...sure hope so. Experience does wonders for people. Is he THAT much better or was the situation a lot different? Better players, Hall of Fame QB, etc? Note that Bill had one winning season in his career prior to Brady becoming a starter....coincidence?
Great quarterbacks without question make a lot of NFL coaches look really smart. That said, Belicheck did win 11 games with Matt Cassel as his starting QB after Brady got hurt and Belicheck is also the GM there even if he doesn't have the title.
As for Davis, the most damning thing to me when watching Providence play the last two years is just how soft his teams played. Yea, the defense generally under Buzz hasn't exactly been stellar, but i never question that the kids under him play hard and actually care. I can't say that watching Providence and how the players treated getting back on transition defense as if it came with a case of herpes.
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Great quarterbacks without question make a lot of NFL coaches look really smart. That said, Belicheck did win 11 games with Matt Cassel as his starting QB after Brady got hurt and Belicheck is also the GM there even if he doesn't have the title.
As for Davis, the most damning thing to me when watching Providence play the last two years is just how soft his teams played. Yea, the defense generally under Buzz hasn't exactly been stellar, but i never question that the kids under him play hard and actually care. I can't say that watching Providence and how the players treated getting back on transition defense as if it came with a case of herpes.
Cassell isn't a slouch, either. He's a pro bowl QB. He just never got the chance until then....ironically, a lot how Brady never got a chance until Bledsoe was injured.
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Providence did have some very solid talent when Keno walked in..
Tim Welsh and his assistant Steve Demeo were very good recruiters.
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Cassell isn't a slouch, either. He's a pro bowl QB. He just never got the chance until then....ironically, a lot how Brady never got a chance until Bledsoe was injured.
Hey, i know this isn't a football forum, but you'll get no argument from me about the importance of quarterbacks in the NFL when it comes to winning.
While i do think Belicheck is a fabulous head coach, even great coaches in the NFL can't win without a quality QB in today's NFL with so many rules passed to benefit the passing game. The days of winning big with just a great defense and a good running game are pretty much over.
An NFL team without a good quarterback is largely irrelevant nowadays.
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It's all about the situation. We've been over this a million times. If Keno comes to MU how does he do? If Buzz goes to PC, how does he do? If KO never left MU, what would have happened? If MU hired someone other than Hank after Al left, what happens? Impossible to tell. This is idea that coach X was fired elsewhere so he wouldn't have done well here is pure speculation because no one knows that answer....and vice versa (see KO's career)
Bellichek went to Cleveland and they canned him 4 years later. Did Bellichek suddenly become a better coach a few years later or was the situation different?
Rumors of Sendek to PC and a few others out there.
So if it is all about the situation, how does a "good" coach do in a perennial situation -- ala Howland at UCLA, Doherty at UNC, Gillespe @ KY or Crean/Davis at Indiana (today all clearly under their fans expectations for what the program was and should be). I think this is completely copping out on the talent aspect of driving change management/success. SO, give me the perfect manager in the crappiest situation, you probably get crap (this is a unique situation in college bball). Give me a good manager with a plan (and a reasonable college brand) and you get momentum, recruits and success.
Bellichek had success when he took control of his situation (i.e. started running the org to his strengths & philosophy), and had nothing to do with "luckily falling into a good program"(the Patriots????). If that were the case, a monkey could run the program after Bobby Knight or Dean Smith or Al McGuire left --- and Pete Carrol would have been a superstar.
Sorry for calling you out on the million and "1"nth time you reviewed this with us. I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.
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I never stated everyone was disappointed that Davis wasn't hired.
Another84 said: Remember how disappointed everyone around here was when he turned us down?
You replied: Have to agree with Another84 here.
I really don't think Another's posts was really stating that literally everyone was asking for him to be hired.
And I don't think he meant literally either.
I do think his statement implied that he thought a majority wanted Keno hired--not merely considered or interviewed, but hired.
Well, it wasn't everyone--and wasn't even a majority.
What he was stating that people did around here and elsewhere that should be looked at.
No. That's not what he said at all. Another84 made it a point to say "turned us down" as opposed to "wasn't looked at".
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Another84 said: Remember how disappointed everyone around here was when he turned us down?
You replied: Have to agree with Another84 here.
I apologize if my post was misconstrued that I was somehow talking about him "turning us down". I never stated that. What I was trying to state is that there were plenty of posts calling for him to be interviewed, looked at, etc.. I noticed quite a few posts after Another84's post stating they were suprised that Keno was being talked about. As if now that Keno has been fired and clearly failed at Providence he was not being talked about for the Marquette opening. It's revisionist.
But Keno WAS being talked about for the Marquette opening. He was, by the press, by posters here, by posters on other boards. In just one search I found various places he was being talked about. And he was even talked about after Buzz was hired.
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So if it is all about the situation, how does a "good" coach do in a perennial situation -- ala Howland at UCLA, Doherty at UNC, Gillespe @ KY or Crean/Davis at Indiana (today all clearly under their fans expectations for what the program was and should be). I think this is completely copping out on the talent aspect of driving change management/success. SO, give me the perfect manager in the crappiest situation, you probably get crap (this is a unique situation in college bball). Give me a good manager with a plan (and a reasonable college brand) and you get momentum, recruits and success.
Bellichek had success when he took control of his situation (i.e. started running the org to his strengths & philosophy), and had nothing to do with "luckily falling into a good program"(the Patriots????). If that were the case, a monkey could run the program after Bobby Knight or Dean Smith or Al McGuire left --- and Pete Carrol would have been a superstar.
Sorry for calling you out on the million and "1"nth time you reviewed this with us. I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.
I think Howland has done fairly well at UCLA regardless of this year
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I think Howland has done fairly well at UCLA regardless of this year
Regardless of this year? UCLA is 22-10 (13-5 in Pac10) with no seniors on the roster. UCLA is trending strongly after being just 14-18 last year. The Wear twins are eligible next fall as well.
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To be fair, I was looking for illustrations -- after a good night sleep I would agree UCLA isn't the best example.
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Will be interesting to see who they tap for this gig. Despite the fact that Keno f'd up in Providence, its still a great opportunity for a mid major coach to make his way into the premier conference in college basketball.
I hear Kevin O'Neill is available starting Monday.
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To be fair, I was looking for illustrations -- after a good night sleep I would agree UCLA isn't the best example.
You need not apologize, you are trying to have a debate with someone who has double standards, whereby: IF anyone else does "X" it is okay, but if Buzz Williams does "X," it is unacceptable and should make everyone in the MU community squeamish.
As you pointed out - said poster has only been critical of Buzz Williams and his time at UNO - never giving Buzz any slack..but rather stating how Buzz deserted a program, etc...yet the UNO program couldn't even give players meal money, provide practice facilities, or reliable transportation to and from games.
+1 to this: I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.
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So if it is all about the situation, how does a "good" coach do in a perennial situation -- ala Howland at UCLA, Doherty at UNC, Gillespe @ KY or Crean/Davis at Indiana (today all clearly under their fans expectations for what the program was and should be). I think this is completely copping out on the talent aspect of driving change management/success. SO, give me the perfect manager in the crappiest situation, you probably get crap (this is a unique situation in college bball). Give me a good manager with a plan (and a reasonable college brand) and you get momentum, recruits and success.
Bellichek had success when he took control of his situation (i.e. started running the org to his strengths & philosophy), and had nothing to do with "luckily falling into a good program"(the Patriots????). If that were the case, a monkey could run the program after Bobby Knight or Dean Smith or Al McGuire left --- and Pete Carrol would have been a superstar.
Sorry for calling you out on the million and "1"nth time you reviewed this with us. I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.
Do you believe your examples above are all the same?
I don't think I, or anyone else here is arguing that a dynamic personality and manager can make great things happen. MU and Al McGuire is a great example. Al made MU. MU had some success before Al, but it was limited. So when Al left, that was a huge void to fill. IU, yeah they had Branch McCracken but then went lean for many years. Bobby Knight resurrected that program. Dean Smith..we saw what happened when he left.
I don't disagree with any of these assessments (though I think your UCLA example was way off) and don't believe I've said otherwise. You do need to have a good manager keep the place going.
However, drill down to the detail level and things change a bit. What Buzz walked into his first year, well...I won't say a monkey could have done it but pretty darn close. That bought a ton of the same momentum, recruits, status that you talk about. So situation DOES matter. Lavin had a similar phenomenon at UCLA. I can rattle off many others as well.
That momentum one gets based on the SITUATION they walk into is huge. Typically, time will expose them if they aren't all that. Just like Bruiser Flint, Matt Doherty, etc. This is why I've always said, wait 5 years. Personally, I think PC should have waited 5 years with Davis, but that's their call. So I believe you understate the situation in this case. Situation is paramount in a number of cases.
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You need not apologize, you are trying to have a debate with someone who has double standards, whereby: IF anyone else does "X" it is okay, but if Buzz Williams does "X," it is unacceptable and should make everyone in the MU community squeamish.
As you pointed out - said poster has only been critical of Buzz Williams and his time at UNO - never giving Buzz any slack..but rather stating how Buzz deserted a program, etc...yet the UNO program couldn't even give players meal money, provide practice facilities, or reliable transportation to and from games.
+1 to this: I must have missed it and didn't realize how crappy situations affected coaching performance -- but now understand how accommodating you have been to Buzz's tough situation at UNO.
LOL. No, actually I've not been critical of Buzz's time at UNO or what he had to face. What I said (I'm happy to provide links) was that UNO fans felt jilted that he left. I've acknowledged many times the situation was tough. I've also acknowledged many times that I DON'T BLAME HIM FOR DOING WHAT IS RIGHT FOR HIS FAMILY and leaving. Why do you ignore this? It so cheapens your argument when you say I'm lying (which I'm not) and you say I have a double standard (when I clearly have acknowledged those difficulties he's had).
It blows me away that with a MU education the idea of reading and comprehension was not taught, apparently in the 1992 to 1998 time frame...is that when they were still letting anyone in with a pulse? ;)
Examples of where I clearly acknowledged the difficulties and didn't blame Buzz for leaving at all....hmmm. Care to comment on these threads going back the last 3 years to the present? Or are they all imaginary?
This one, almost exact exchange nearly a year to the day....reading still a problem for you ners
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=19201.msg194833#msg194833
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8521.msg69339#msg69339
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=20524.msg214042#msg214042
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24978.msg283808#msg283808
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21315.msg229384#msg229384
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=16714.msg163249#msg163249
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14456.msg130711#msg130711
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Do you believe your examples above are all the same?
I don't think I, or anyone else here is arguing that a dynamic personality and manager can make great things happen. MU and Al McGuire is a great example. Al made MU. MU had some success before Al, but it was limited. So when Al left, that was a huge void to fill. IU, yeah they had Branch McCracken but then went lean for many years. Bobby Knight resurrected that program. Dean Smith..we saw what happened when he left.
I don't disagree with any of these assessments (though I think your UCLA example was way off) and don't believe I've said otherwise. You do need to have a good manager keep the place going.
However, drill down to the detail level and things change a bit. What Buzz walked into his first year, well...I won't say a monkey could have done it but pretty darn close. That bought a ton of the same momentum, recruits, status that you talk about. So situation DOES matter. Lavin had a similar phenomenon at UCLA. I can rattle off many others as well.
That momentum one gets based on the SITUATION they walk into is huge. Typically, time will expose them if they aren't all that. Just like Bruiser Flint, Matt Doherty, etc. This is why I've always said, wait 5 years. Personally, I think PC should have waited 5 years with Davis, but that's their call. So I believe you understate the situation in this case. Situation is paramount in a number of cases.
Don't think by any means that the situations above are all identical. However, I would say there are many examples of coaches succeeding and failing despite the situation. I personally believe that the person has more influence than the the trajectory of the situation -- and for me time is a flexible dimension that is given based on a coaches success, attitude and program momentum observed. Agree to disagree with you there.
Fair point on Keno -- it is consistent for you to believe he deserved a predetermined amount of rope.
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Cite all you want Chicos - there are 3 times as many quotes that would indict you and your consistent witch hunt on all things Buzz...including his dealings at New Orleans.
I was admitted to MU back in 1992, and didn't even require entry through the Freshman Frontier Program...though I was probably a viable candidate for FFP. I also must confess that I am not sharp enough how to perfect the search function on MU Scoop to regurgitate posts as well as you. Both you and 84 are remarkable in your ability to do so, and for that I applaud you.
You should be thankful for my search function ineptitude, because I'd have a field day quoting posts of yours that are very disingenious when it comes to Buzz.
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Do you believe your examples above are all the same?
I don't think I, or anyone else here is arguing that a dynamic personality and manager can make great things happen. MU and Al McGuire is a great example. Al made MU. MU had some success before Al, but it was limited. So when Al left, that was a huge void to fill. IU, yeah they had Branch McCracken but then went lean for many years. Bobby Knight resurrected that program. Dean Smith..we saw what happened when he left.
I don't disagree with any of these assessments (though I think your UCLA example was way off) and don't believe I've said otherwise. You do need to have a good manager keep the place going.
However, drill down to the detail level and things change a bit. What Buzz walked into his first year, well...I won't say a monkey could have done it but pretty darn close. That bought a ton of the same momentum, recruits, status that you talk about. So situation DOES matter. Lavin had a similar phenomenon at UCLA. I can rattle off many others as well.
That momentum one gets based on the SITUATION they walk into is huge. Typically, time will expose them if they aren't all that. Just like Bruiser Flint, Matt Doherty, etc. This is why I've always said, wait 5 years. Personally, I think PC should have waited 5 years with Davis, but that's their call. So I believe you understate the situation in this case. Situation is paramount in a number of cases.
I wouldn't have waited 5 years
It's one thing if a team isn't winning enough games, it's another thing in my view if the kids won't play hard for a coach. I see that as very damning for any coach and for back to back years those Providence teams under Keno were soft as hell and didn't play hard on defense, especially transition defense.
That would be very tough for me to accept if i was an AD because that would tell me that the players are tuning out the coach because no way Davis was teaching the kids to not hustle back in transition defense.
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You should be thankful for my search function ineptitude, because I'd have a field day quoting posts of yours that are very disingenious when it comes to Buzz.
I think all of MUScoop is thankful.
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I think all of MUScoop is thankful.
Funny. Between 84 and Chicos - they've got the multi-quote post, search function perfected and mastered. No need for a 3rd brow beater. I certainly won't become that guy.
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Cite all you want Chicos - there are 3 times as many quotes that would indict you and your consistent witch hunt on all things Buzz...including his dealings at New Orleans.
I was admitted to MU back in 1992, and didn't even require entry through the Freshman Frontier Program...though I was probably a viable candidate for FFP. I also must confess that I am not sharp enough how to perfect the search function on MU Scoop to regurgitate posts as well as you. Both you and 84 are remarkable in your ability to do so, and for that I applaud you.
You should be thankful for my search function ineptitude, because I'd have a field day quoting posts of yours that are very disingenious when it comes to Buzz.
Now I understand.
How many times have I invited you to go back to April of 2008 and see what I really thought about Buzz at the time of his hire?
Why do I suspect that your self-admitted ineptitude with search is partly based out of a fear that you just might learn how wrong you've been?
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Cite all you want Chicos - there are 3 times as many quotes that would indict you and your consistent witch hunt on all things Buzz...including his dealings at New Orleans.
I was admitted to MU back in 1992, and didn't even require entry through the Freshman Frontier Program...though I was probably a viable candidate for FFP. I also must confess that I am not sharp enough how to perfect the search function on MU Scoop to regurgitate posts as well as you. Both you and 84 are remarkable in your ability to do so, and for that I applaud you.
You should be thankful for my search function ineptitude, because I'd have a field day quoting posts of yours that are very disingenious when it comes to Buzz.
All you have to do is admit you are wrong....I have not blasted Buzz for his role at UNO. I've been very careful not to do that. I provide with you example after example after example and you can't admit you're wrong. Wow. Makes one wonder if the obsession is so strong that no matter what evidence is there, you will always go with whatever notion makes you feel some vindication, even if it's only made up in your mind. Scary.
If you want a tutorial on Search, I am happy to provide it. Very very simple.
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Now I understand.
How many times have I invited you to go back to April of 2008 and see what I really thought about Buzz at the time of his hire?
Why do I suspect that your self-admitted ineptitude with search is partly based out of a fear that you just might learn how wrong you've been?
LOL
+1
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All you have to do is admit you are wrong....I have not blasted Buzz for his role at UNO. I've been very careful not to do that. I provide with you example after example after example and you can't admit you're wrong. Wow. Makes one wonder if the obsession is so strong that no matter what evidence is there, you will always go with whatever notion makes you feel some vindication, even if it's only made up in your mind. Scary.
If you want a tutorial on Search, I am happy to provide it. Very very simple.
Comedy..coming from you. Would you like to admit you were wrong being critical about the hiring of Buzz instead of Keno, Grant, Bennett, etc.? Would you like to admit you were wrong after the DePaul loss last year questioning if we'd make the NIT?? Would you like to admit you called this year's team an 11th place finisher, when in past years under Tom Crean when the team tied for a place you bumped them to the front of the pecking order?
Please don't concern yourself with my health as mentioned in a different topic - I'm quite healthy and certainly not one living in denial and in a lie...and there is no obsesion with you...just occasional accountability. For you to have called our team a bunch of choking dogs who pee themselves...really speaks volumes about where you fall on the mental health continuim.
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Comedy..coming from you. Would you like to admit you were wrong being critical about the hiring of Buzz instead of Keno, Grant, Bennett, etc.? Would you like to admit you were wrong after the DePaul loss last year questioning if we'd make the NIT?? Would you like to admit you called this year's team an 11th place finisher, when in past years under Tom Crean when the team tied for a place you bumped them to the front of the pecking order?
Please don't concern yourself with my health as mentioned in a different topic - I'm quite healthy and certainly not one living in denial and in a lie...and there is no obsesion with you...just occasional accountability. For you to have called our team a bunch of choking dogs who pee themselves...really speaks volumes about where you fall on the mental health continuim.
Sure...I'll admit I was wrong when it comes time to admit it.
On Buzz, I said 5 years...at the five year mark I'll happily give it. Would Bennett have been a success here, Stallings (who I pushed for), Grant, etc? We'll never know, now will we?
Sure, I was wrong after the DePaul loss last year...they made the NCAA. I was thrilled...flew up to San Jose with my son to attend the game. Didn't see you there, would have been nice to shake your hand. I was wrong. Definitely not the first time, won't be the last.
I believe I already corrected the 11th place finish comment...there was already an admission. You may have missed it, but I'm not sure how. 9th place finish and 11th seed. Pretty clear what I said.
So let's see, you called me out for three things...two I have apologized for and the third you'll just have to wait two more years on....and with that one, well there were still a bunch of other guys that could have also done the job where we didn't need to take the gamble. Glad it's working out...so far.
Now, with all the evidence I presented in this thread that clearly shows I did not blame Buzz for UNO's departure or take issue with him leaving UNO, I'll await your pledge that you were wrong. Seems only fair. ;) Hell, I even just posted a Vitale + Bilas loves Buzz article for you to enjoy. I'll probably be blamed for that in some weird way as well. LOL