MUScoop

With Pat Knight getting fired from Texas Tech earlier today, what do you think the chances are that Buzz will go after that job getting back home? Could be a win win situation because I don't like the way MU's program is heading. MU is the highest funded program in the Big East and we are having troubles getting into the tournament. Enough of these JUCO transfers and let's get some 4 year talent. Look at PITT and ND, lots of seniors that have developed through that system (I know Hansbrough transferred in) but I think Buzz takes a hard look at this opening. Any thoughts?

If that post was both your first and last I wouldn't mind.

No

Quote from: jeffreyweee on March 07, 2011, 01:20:57 PM
If that post was both your first and last I wouldn't mind.

+1

I could see him sniffin' around. The job was good enough for Bob Knight to bite.

Buzz will stay as long at MU will have him.  Straight from Buzz's mouth, why would we believe anything else.


Personally, I think BCG gets the job

Different circumstances with Bobby Knight.  I believe he was out of a job when he took it.  Huggy wanted into the BEAST when the WVU job opened up.

Every Coach says they will be at their school for as long as they'll have them. Would not be surprised if he looks into it.

Tony Benford is a more natural candidate than Buzz.  Benford played at Texas Tech (was very good) and is from nearby Hobbs, NM.   If TT doesn't want to take a risk on BCG -- maybe Tony gets a shot.

Now if Arkansas or Oklahoma opened up, who knows.

I really hope Buzz stays, but... if we are put in a circumstance where we have to find a new I say look into someone with deep BEAST roots.  Someone who eats, breathes and sleeps BEAST.  Later with these p^ssies jumping to other conferences. 

Are we going to do this everything time a D1 opening occurs in Texas or surrounding states (Arkansas)?

Maybe the mods should start a category called "Texas And Near Texas Job Openings" as their are a lot of programs down that way.

Not just no, but hell no.  Coaches don't voluntarily move down the hierarchy.   

Quote from: Freezer on March 07, 2011, 01:30:25 PM
Every Coach says they will be at their school for as long as they'll have them. Would not be surprised if he looks into it.

Of course, that's why it's silly that they (coaches) even say it....even sillier when fans actually believe it.

If he were to leave, it would be the 5th coach in the last 6 that didn't make it past 5 years....that is BRUTAL.

No stability....if this were to happen.  At some point, if it comes to being, MU might want to get a guy from the Midwest or with Midwest ties that actually wants to be there long term.

IF this happens....but I doubt Tech is where he'd go. 

First thought, I'm not sure TT is a better job than MU, though it is a good geographical fit for Buzz.

Second thought, I'd hate to see him bail on us before he even gets to see any of his freshmen become seniors.

Third thought, the idea that his recruiting philosophy is flawed because he had to bring in JUCOs to balance two empty classes that were left here for him is incredibly ignorant and not really fair to put on Buzz.

Fourth thought, if Buzz leaves, many of our players may follow suit. Regardless what you think of him, it's clear the team likes him and buys into him.

Last thought, if you want to see four-year players, wait for guys like Caddy, Otule, and Blue to become seniors. Unless you have another explanation how to create seniors out of thin air.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 07, 2011, 01:59:33 PM
First thought, I'm not sure TT is a better job than MU, though it is a good geographical fit for Buzz.

Second thought, I'd hate to see him bail on us before he even gets to see any of his freshmen become seniors.

Third thought, the idea that his recruiting philosophy is flawed because he had to bring in JUCOs to balance two empty classes that were left here for him is incredibly ignorant and not really fair to put on Buzz.

Fourth thought, if Buzz leaves, many of our players may follow suit. Regardless what you think of him, it's clear the team likes him and buys into him.

Last thought, if you want to see four-year players, wait for guys like Caddy, Otule, and Blue to become seniors. Unless you have another explanation how to create seniors out of thin air.

+1  People seem to forget that MOST programs make runs in the tourney riding the backs of their third and fourth year players...typically, those guys aren't all that significant in their first two college seasons...kids need time to mature and develop; so how about we give it to them?

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 07, 2011, 01:59:33 PM

Third thought, the idea that his recruiting philosophy is flawed because he had to bring in JUCOs to balance two empty classes that were left here for him is incredibly ignorant and not really fair to put on Buzz.

Disagree that it's "ignorant".  There are many ways to skin the cat.  St. John's next year is adding mostly high school kids, despite having 10 seniors leave this year.  Now, some will argue that going that route you set yourself up for too much inexperience...that's a defensible argument.  So is going the route they (SJU) went. Let's not forget that our own freshmen a few years ago did a wonderful job playing major minutes, starting, etc and got us to the NCAA tournament.   

It seems that a number of folks here make this argument about filling and balancing the classes with JUCOS as if it was the ONLY solution....it's not the ONLY solution but is often presented here as if it was.  It simply isn't.  The quantity is the other question.  Is the right mix 70% JUCO and 30% HS...is it 50% each...is it 30% to 70%? 

My bigger concern about his recruiting philosophy is more on the types of players vs all the JUCOs.  PG, shooters seem to be not quite as important as switchables in the body frame he has described in the past. 

Texas Tech is probably behind even TCU now in the pecking order of Texas Basketball.   if Texas A&M opened up I might get worried.   MU has not had a great year.  But we had how many returning player's?  Butler, Dwight, DJO and Fulce?  Over 1/2 our team is new this year.  I was thinking the best we could do was 11 wins, so we ended up 2 below.  Its not like we were picked to win 14 Big East games and only won 9. 

Quote from: kmwtrucks on March 07, 2011, 02:27:37 PM
Its not like we were picked to win 14 Big East games and only won 9. 

You mean like Nova?  Maybe Jay Wright should bail out of Philly after his legitimate failure this year.

Here we go again with the rumors flying. Buzz to Texas Tech, or Arkansas or the next opening that occurs. There are always a dozen or more when the season ends.

Here is a rumor you can book. Texas Tech rehires Bobby Knight. Then Indiana fires Crean and they hire Knight.

Which Knight?

I hear Buzz is going to Rice (teal implied)

Billy Gillespie should be the #1 candidate.

Quote from: Freezer on March 07, 2011, 01:18:56 PM
Any thoughts?

That it's been a while since I've seen a post completely based on ether-hallucination-induced, fantasy-land, Lionel Hutz-like conjecture?!?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 02:16:10 PM
Disagree that it's "ignorant".  There are many ways to skin the cat.  St. John's next year is adding mostly high school kids, despite having 10 seniors leave this year.  Now, some will argue that going that route you set yourself up for too much inexperience...that's a defensible argument.  So is going the route they (SJU) went. Let's not forget that our own freshmen a few years ago did a wonderful job playing major minutes, starting, etc and got us to the NCAA tournament.   

It seems that a number of folks here make this argument about filling and balancing the classes with JUCOS as if it was the ONLY solution....it's not the ONLY solution but is often presented here as if it was.  It simply isn't.  The quantity is the other question.  Is the right mix 70% JUCO and 30% HS...is it 50% each...is it 30% to 70%? 

My bigger concern about his recruiting philosophy is more on the types of players vs all the JUCOs.  PG, shooters seem to be not quite as important as switchables in the body frame he has described in the past. 

I may have misspoken a bit in my phrasing, but what I meant to say was that for Buzz to have juniors and seniors on the roster this year, he had to recruit JUCO kids. You can't blame Buzz's recruiting philosophy for not having 4-year players at this point in time when his first recruiting class is in its sophomore year. I'm all for having more 4-year players on the roster, and more players in their third and fourth years in Buzz's system, but it's simply not possible to achieve that without arriving at the fourth and fifth years of Buzz's tenure. Barring the original poster having access to a time machine Buzz can borrow...

Quote from: NCMUFan on March 07, 2011, 01:28:07 PM
Different circumstances with Bobby Knight.  I believe he was out of a job when he took it.  Huggy wanted into the BEAST when the WVU job opened up.

Oh, and Huggy is a West Virginia alum who played basketball there.

Quote from: leever on March 07, 2011, 03:28:02 PM
Which Knight?

I hear Buzz is going to Rice (teal implied)

Duh, of course he is.  That's where his roots are!  That and the fact that the Pan American job isn't opening up anytime soon.

Who's next?

Sidney Lowe at NC State?  Hewitt at Georgia Tech?  Capel at Oklahoma?  Crean at IU?

As I said in another topic, a down year (or two) was almost unavoidable given the lack of incoming talent Buzz inherited. At some point those chickens were going to come home to roost. If he was able to weather the storm with JuCos, and this year (and perhaps even next year), was that year, then that's pretty damn good considering we are likley to make the tournament. Had he passed on the JuCos and simply went with HS players, last year would have been bad, this year would have been bad, and who knows about next year given that he had to recruit almost from scratch when he got here.

People bitch that we aren't very good, and point to the Juco players as a problem, but something tells me the same people would have been bitching last year and this year as well when we were going 6-12 in the BE, had Buzz not brought those guys in. Things would likley be looking good for next year, but at some point the piper had to be paid for the empty recruiting cupboard when Crean left. If that payment is taking place now and the trajectory begins to go back up, I would say the guy did one helluva job.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 03:44:15 PM
Who's next?

Sidney Lowe at NC State?  Hewitt at Georgia Tech?  Capel at Oklahoma?  Crean at IU?

Those first two look good.  No idea what the buzz is at Oklahoma.  Crean, absolutely not.  They've had a hard time since they had to boot Bobby, and Crean has finally greased up the recruiting pipeline.  They'd be complete idiots to can Crean now that he's finally up to snuff.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 03:46:27 PM
As I said in another topic, a down year (or two) was almost unavoidable given the lack of incoming talent Buzz inherited. At some point those chickens were going to come home to roost. If he was able to weather the storm with JuCos, and this year (and perhaps even next year), was that year, then that's pretty damn good considering we are likley to make the tournament. Had he passed on the JuCos and simply went with HS players, last year would have been bad, this year would have been bad, and who knows about next year given that he had to recruit almost from scratch when he got here.

People bitch that we aren't very good, and point to the Juco players as a problem, but something tells me the same people would have been bitching last year and this year as well when we were going 6-12 in the BE, had Buzz not brought those guys in. Things would likley be looking good for next year, but at some point the piper had to be paid for the empty recruiting cupboard when Crean left. If that payment is taking place now and the trajectory begins to go back up, I would say the guy did one helluva job.

+1  Buzz could have gone the route Crean went at Indiana, but the results would have pissed most posters on this board off.  AND there's no guarantee that we'd be looking as good for next year.

1) Hewitt at Georgia Tech

2) Lowe at NC State

3) Heath at South Florida

4) Davis at Providence

5) Pelphrey at Arkansas

Those are the possible, no way Crean gets canned.  

Quote from: nyg on March 07, 2011, 03:50:47 PM
1) Hewitt at Georgia Tech

2) Lowe at NC State

3) Heath at South Florida

4) Davis at Providence

5) Pelphrey at Arkansas

Those are the possible, no way Crean gets canned.  

Add Capel at OU ....

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 07, 2011, 03:33:01 PM
I may have misspoken a bit in my phrasing, but what I meant to say was that for Buzz to have juniors and seniors on the roster this year, he had to recruit JUCO kids. You can't blame Buzz's recruiting philosophy for not having 4-year players at this point in time when his first recruiting class is in its sophomore year. I'm all for having more 4-year players on the roster, and more players in their third and fourth years in Buzz's system, but it's simply not possible to achieve that without arriving at the fourth and fifth years of Buzz's tenure. Barring the original poster having access to a time machine Buzz can borrow...

Exactly. Buzz could have replaced two empty classes like TC (one Verdell Jones, one crappy senior transfer {to suck up to the kid's Dad} and one lousy JC guy who turned up ineligible). Wonder how the people going nuts about 9-9 under those difficult circumstances would feel had we opted for the blueprint that produced a 3-15 all alone in last place Big Ten team?

Quote from: Freezer on March 07, 2011, 01:18:56 PM
With Pat Knight getting fired from Texas Tech earlier today, what do you think the chances are that Buzz will go after that job getting back home? Could be a win win situation because I don't like the way MU's program is heading. MU is the highest funded program in the Big East and we are having troubles getting into the tournament. Enough of these JUCO transfers and let's get some 4 year talent. Look at PITT and ND, lots of seniors that have developed through that system (I know Hansbrough transferred in) but I think Buzz takes a hard look at this opening. Any thoughts?

You don't like the direction the program is heading right now? Yeah I hate scratching and clawwing our way into the NCAA tournament too, after playing the toughest schedule in MU history. I really hope we kill Providence tomorrow and Buzz leaves so we have a chance at Keno Davis after he gets fired. Come on people...

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 02:16:10 PM
Disagree that it's "ignorant".  There are many ways to skin the cat.  St. John's next year is adding mostly high school kids, despite having 10 seniors leave this year.  Now, some will argue that going that route you set yourself up for too much inexperience...that's a defensible argument.  So is going the route they (SJU) went. Let's not forget that our own freshmen a few years ago did a wonderful job playing major minutes, starting, etc and got us to the NCAA tournament.   

It seems that a number of folks here make this argument about filling and balancing the classes with JUCOS as if it was the ONLY solution....it's not the ONLY solution but is often presented here as if it was.  It simply isn't.  The quantity is the other question.  Is the right mix 70% JUCO and 30% HS...is it 50% each...is it 30% to 70%? 

My bigger concern about his recruiting philosophy is more on the types of players vs all the JUCOs.  PG, shooters seem to be not quite as important as switchables in the body frame he has described in the past. 

If you have 10 seniors tp replace, you might as well start from scratch.  Buzz had a totally different situation.  He had holes in every class.  He could have canned all scholarships, and recruited like Lavin was able too, but some people would have squirmed

Quote from: ringout on March 07, 2011, 04:00:35 PM
If you have 10 seniors tp replace, you might as well start from scratch.  Buzz had a totally different situation.  He had holes in every class.  He could have canned all scholarships, and recruited like Lavin was able too, but some people would have squirmed

St. John's was also in a much worse position than MU when Lavin was hired. Buzz inherited a team that returned 4 starters who were one shot away from at least the Sweet 16. A steep drop-off from that would not have gone over very well at all.  Not to mention that Lavin is an established head coach who likely will have more leeway with boosters/administration than the no-name who was hired to coach MU.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 07, 2011, 03:33:01 PM
I may have misspoken a bit in my phrasing, but what I meant to say was that for Buzz to have juniors and seniors on the roster this year, he had to recruit JUCO kids. You can't blame Buzz's recruiting philosophy for not having 4-year players at this point in time when his first recruiting class is in its sophomore year. I'm all for having more 4-year players on the roster, and more players in their third and fourth years in Buzz's system, but it's simply not possible to achieve that without arriving at the fourth and fifth years of Buzz's tenure. Barring the original poster having access to a time machine Buzz can borrow...

First, let's not ignore that Buzz was an assistant coach for the three players who would have been seniors this year.  None of those three left before learning that Buzz would get the head coaching job. They knew him. He knew them.  Let's not continue with the fiction that these players bolted on April 2nd out of uncertainty over who the next coach would be. They stuck around long enough to find out.

Second, Buzz was not limited to JUCOs if is goal was to balance the classes.  He could have sought out D1 transfers like ND did with Scott Martin and Ben Hansbrough. MU has had a good track record with D1 transfers considering how Maurice Acker and Robert Jackson worked out for us.  A D1 transfer would have both balanced the classes AND given us D1 experience.  

Third, there was no need to fixate on balancing the classes--we SHOULD have been in a position to land excellent HS talent that would be capable of starting as freshmen for a Big East team (i.e. players like the Amigos).  I would MUCH rather have a .500 team this year dominated by frosh and sophs that will still be here in 2013 and 2014, rather than one dominated by JUCOs that will all be gone by 2012.

Fourth, we know Buzz believes that 40% of freshmen will eventually transfer--loading up on Frosh in his first full season would have self-balanced over time AND given us a roster of seniors down the road.  Two years in, of the 7-man 2010 class, we have only 3 players left for next year--Erik Williams, Junior Cadougan and DJO.  And a maximum of two 4-year seniors out of seven recruits.  

Quote from: Marquette84 on March 07, 2011, 04:18:31 PM
Second, Buzz was not limited to JUCOs if is goal was to balance the classes.  He could have sought out D1 transfers like ND did with Scott Martin and Ben Hansbrough.

Good grief. Let's ee the list of transfers from that year, and assume that starting on April 15th or whatever day it was, that Buzz would have been able to get to them, and convince them to come on board with a first year head coach they probably never met. Yeah, that can't miss.

Quote from: Marquette84 on March 07, 2011, 04:18:31 PM
Third, there was no need to fixate on balancing the classes--we SHOULD have been in a position to land excellent HS talent that would be capable of starting as freshmen for a Big East team (i.e. players like the Amigos).  I would MUCH rather have a .500 team this year dominated by frosh and sophs that will still be here in 2013 and 2014, rather than one dominated by JUCOs that will all be gone by 2012.

You mean like Vander Blue, Junior Cadougan, Jamail Jones, Erik Williams? Guys like that? How many more of them were out there that he would have had a serious shot at on 'short notice'? Or is your assertion that Buzz didn't even try to recruit HS players? Let's face it, John Wall wasn't going to come to Marquette. I don't disagree this would have been a decent route to go, but you and I both know that when we stunk on ice last year and this year, just as many people would have been bitching about that. Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, and DJO are legitimate BE players, and MU will be going to the NCAA tournament for the 6th (and probably 7th) consecutive year because they're here. that would not have been the case were they not.

Taking it a step further, when those guys are gone by 2012, who's gonna take their place? Perhaps excellent HS talent that is capable of starting as freshman for a Big East team? I guess we'll find out.

BTW, why exactly SHOULD we have been in a position to land excellent HS talent that would be capable of starting as freshmen for a Big East team?

Quote from: LittleMurs on March 07, 2011, 03:47:34 PM
Those first two look good.  No idea what the buzz is at Oklahoma.  Crean, absolutely not.  They've had a hard time since they had to boot Bobby, and Crean has finally greased up the recruiting pipeline.  They'd be complete idiots to can Crean now that he's finally up to snuff.

yeah, Crean is up to snuff--last in Big Tweleven last couple years?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 02:16:10 PM
Disagree that it's "ignorant".  There are many ways to skin the cat.  St. John's next year is adding mostly high school kids, despite having 10 seniors leave this year.  Now, some will argue that going that route you set yourself up for too much inexperience...that's a defensible argument.  So is going the route they (SJU) went. Let's not forget that our own freshmen a few years ago did a wonderful job playing major minutes, starting, etc and got us to the NCAA tournament.  

Chicos you are chosing to ignore a few key elements in your many way to skin the cat.  Lavin was a known comodity who didn't have to prove himself.  Remember Buzz had just had the door slammed in his face by Hurley and TT.  Do you think he might have been rightly concerned that would happen in his first recruiting class.  Second SJU had been sooo bad for sooo long suffering through a couple years of growing pains would have been fine (not even figuring in the support he'll bank from this years unexpected success).  I'm pretty sure if Buzz put up Providence type numbers last year and this year his job tenure would be very much in doubt.  Third I quess if you want to bank on recruiting 3 of the top 7 scorers in MU history in one class you could roll the dice.  As I recall the last time a coach did that it was Key, MacIlvane and Logeterman got chewed up pretty bad in C-USA.

Quote from: LittleMurs on March 07, 2011, 03:50:20 PM
+1  Buzz could have gone the route Crean went at Indiana, but the results would have pissed most posters on this board off.  AND there's no guarantee that we'd be looking as good for next year.

+1. Plus Crean knew he had a larger grace period stepping into the IU job.  Everyone was tripping over themselves to talk about how it was a huge rebuilding job (rightfully so). No one saw MU that way, just sort of underlining Murs point about people being pissed if the program had "regressed" before Buzz's HS guys matured.

Quote from: NotAnAlum on March 07, 2011, 05:01:54 PM
Chicos you are chosing to ignore a few key elements in your many way to skin the cat.  Lavin was a known comodity who didn't have to prove himself.  Remember Buzz had just had the door slammed in his face by Hurley and TT.  Do you think he might have been rightly concerned that would happen in his first recruiting class.  Second SJU had been sooo bad for sooo long suffering through a couple years of growing pains would have been fine (not even figuring in the support he'll bank from this years unexpected success).  I'm pretty sure if Buzz put up Providence type numbers last year and this year his job tenure would be very much in doubt.  Third I quess if you want to bank on recruiting 3 of the top 7 scorers in MU history in one class you could roll the dice.  As I recall the last time a coach did that it was Key, MacIlvane and Logeterman got chewed up pretty bad in C-USA.

All fair points.  Doesn't change my opinion that 72 hours to decide could have been pushed to more than a week, he wasn't going anywhere...that's the crux of it for me.  The recruiting class was gone no matter what and it was naive to think otherwise.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 04:38:14 PM
Good grief. Let's ee the list of transfers from that year, and assume that starting on April 15th or whatever day it was, that Buzz would have been able to get to them, and convince them to come on board with a first year head coach they probably never met. Yeah, that can't miss.

How is that any different than landing Jimmy Butler or Liam McMorrow?  How in the world could Buzz have convinced them to come on board with a first year head coach they probably never met?

This is where you seem to have a bit of a logic problem in your argument.  You credit Buzz for being good enough to convince Butler and McMorrow to come to MU, but not good enough to recruit a D1 transfer or a HS senior.  

Regardless of what happend the first year, Buzz CERTAINLY should have been good enough by his second year.

I gotta love the way you swing wildly between declaring Buzz to be an outstanding recruite, then turning around and implying that he's an incompetent nincompoop who can't even figure out how introduce himself and connect with players looking to transfer--unless they're a JUCO or a Canadian player.

Not to mention that BUZZ WAS ALREADY RECRUITING FOR MARQUETTE AS CREAN'S ASSISTANT!!

Seriously, what the hell was Buzz doing flying around on MU's dime spending MU's recruiting budget for the previous season if he DIDN'T wind up with any connections with players and coaches he could tap into?

Are you seriously suggesting that Buzz was so utterly incompetent that after a full season recruiting for MU that he had to rely on five JUCO transfers?

For my part, I have significantly more more faith than you do in the ability of a first year head coach to land quality players.  O'Neill landed Key, McIlvaine, Logermann and transfers Stewart and Curry.  Or Crean who landed ODB, Wade, Merritt--all without resorting to going deep into the JUCO pipeline.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 04:38:14 PM
You mean like Vander Blue, Junior Cadougan, Jamail Jones, Erik Williams? Guys like that? How many more of them were out there that he would have had a serious shot at on 'short notice'?

Short notice?  He was MU's main recruiter under Crean!!!  He damn well should have had connections across the country by that point.

If you think that Buzz had made no recruiting inroads during his time as Crean's assistant--what the hell WAS he doing?   Its not like Buzz just jumped into the MU job off some turnip truck.  He got the job largely because he was ALREADY WORKING FOR MU RECRUITING PLAYERS FOR US!!!

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 04:38:14 PM
BTW, why exactly SHOULD we have been in a position to land excellent HS talent that would be capable of starting as freshmen for a Big East team?

How about the best facilities in the country, strong fan support and top 10 attendance, a school where the team isn't playing 2nd fiddle to football, outstanding heritage, visibility to NBA players and scouts, 3-4 straight years of 10+ wins in the Big East and NCAA appearances, and most importantly A TON OF STARTING MINUTES OVER THE NEXT TWO SEASONS.

Quote from: Marquette84 on March 07, 2011, 05:55:52 PM
This is where you seem to have a bit of a logic problem in your argument.  You credit Buzz for being good enough to convince Butler and McMorrow to come to MU, but not good enough to recruit a D1 transfer or a HS senior.

Again, that list of D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job would be helpful.

Not to mention that BUZZ WAS ALREADY RECRUITING FOR MARQUETTE AS CREAN'S ASSISTANT!!

Gee, I must have forgotten about all of those open scholarships they had prior to Crean (and Taylor, and Nick Williams, and Chritopherson, and Mbakwe, and Hazel) leaving. Who were all of those uncommitted BE starting caliber players that maintained an interest in MU with no open scholarships, that he should have been able to sign in the Summer of 2008?

Regardless of what happend the first year, Buzz CERTAINLY should have been good enough by his second year.

You mean the year that he signed Williams, Cadougan, Maymon, and Mbao (and DJO)? That year? The class that was ranked in the Top 25? that class? Or perhaps we could look one more year down the line to the class containing Blue, Jones, Smith, Gardner and Wilson? Yep in that first year he made the choice to pass on BE starting caliber HS players, and BE starting caliber D1 transfers because he wanted to. They were all just sitting there waiting for his call, but he thought he'd go with the jucos instead.

If we assume he needed 3 or 4 guys, I will look forward to your list of 15-20 BE starting caliber HS players and/or BE starting caliber D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job, and after Taylor, Christopherson, etc. made the decision to leave to open up scholarships. It probably wouldn't hurt if they are better than Jimmy Butler too. All he has done is earn All Big East honors the last two years. Why would we want that guy around? He went to a Junior College! Gasp!

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 06:46:26 PM
Again, that list of D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job would be helpful.

Not to mention that BUZZ WAS ALREADY RECRUITING FOR MARQUETTE AS CREAN'S ASSISTANT!!

Gee, I must have forgotten about all of those open scholarships they had prior to Crean (and Taylor, and Nick Williams, and Chritopherson, and Mbakwe, and Hazel) leaving. Who were all of those uncommitted BE starting caliber players that maintained an interest in MU with no open scholarships, that he should have been able to sign in the Summer of 2008?

C'mon Navin, if Buzz was any good he would have just crapped a couple of 5 stars the day he was hired.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 07, 2011, 07:08:36 PM
C'mon Navin, if Buzz was any good he would have just crapped a couple of 5 stars the day he was hired.

I know. I swear, sometimes its like trying to argue with award wining writer Jim Hague around here.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 07:28:01 PM
I know. I swear, sometimes its like trying to argue with award wining writer Jim Hague around here.

There is ZERO sense trying to have a rationale debate with 84.  His nickname of Joanie Crean is well earned and deserved.  It is absolutely amazing how much grace he and Chicos afford Tom Crean, but Buzz??  NO WAY.  It would be so refreshing to see both of them grant Buzz the same latitude and grace they do Tom Crean.

Shoot, they've defended the hell out of Crean taking the 2004 and 2005 teams to the NIT (even with 2 traditional, Top 100, future NBA players).  Chicos has absolutely tried to assert that D-Wade was not the reason MU went on the Final Four run.  I'll never understand how losing a Robert Jackson can cause a team from being Final Four 1 year, and returning every other player the next year..and being NIT caliber..and losing in the first round..

Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 07:37:17 PM
There is ZERO sense trying to have a rationale debate with 84.  His nickname of Joanie Crean is well earned and deserved.  It is absolutely amazing how much grace he and Chicos afford Tom Crean, but Buzz??  NO WAY.  It would be so refreshing to see both of them grant Buzz the same latitude and grace they do Tom Crean.

Shoot, they've defended the hell out of Crean taking the 2004 and 2005 teams to the NIT (even with 2 traditional, Top 100, future NBA players).  Chicos has absolutely tried to assert that D-Wade was not the reason MU went on the Final Four run.  I'll never understand how losing a Robert Jackson can cause a team from being Final Four 1 year, and returning every other player the next year..and being NIT caliber..and losing in the first round..

Excuse me, but I have asserted you go to a Final Four as a team.  If Diener isn't on fire against Holy Cross, we don't go.  If Novak isn't on fired against Missouri, we don't go.  Jackson and Merrit against Pitt...etc, etc.  Of course Wade was paramount, but you make it sound like he was the ONLY reason...in fact you said it in the paragraph above.  You couldn't be more wrong. Collectively that TEAM went to the Final Four.  Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand, but apparently it is.

84's logic was just fine...you just don't like it and that's when you start crapping on people rather than actually REFUTING it.  What about his logic do you not care for?  Explain it. 

The irony of your comments about Crean and Buzz is staggering...again, how were they similar?  I've asked this time and time and time again and you have never answered this question...yet you continue to make this absurd comparison as if they were the same.  Why can't you just man up and admit you're wrong on this one.  They weren't the same by any standard.

I don't grant Buzz any grace....wow....you might want to go back to last year when I said he should be up for BE COY of the award.  Hmmm, oh that's right...you ignore those types of things.  If I may borrow some of your words..."It is absolutely amazing how much" you forget what other posters actually say when you're trying to build a faulty charge...keep it going.

TT? Oh, that TT. I'll have to unlearn the reflexive reading of those letters as shorthand for the tanned one.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 07:51:11 PM
Excuse me, but I have asserted you go to a Final Four as a team.  If Diener isn't on fire against Holy Cross, we don't go.  If Novak isn't on fired against Missouri, we don't go.  Jackson and Merrit against Pitt...etc, etc.  Of course Wade was paramount, but you make it sound like he was the ONLY reason...in fact you said it in the paragraph above.  You couldn't be more wrong. Collectively that TEAM went to the Final Four.  Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand, but apparently it is.

84's logic was just fine...you just don't like it and that's when you start crapping on people rather than actually REFUTING it.  What about his logic do you not care for?  Explain it. 

The irony of your comments about Crean and Buzz is staggering...again, how were they similar?  I've asked this time and time and time again and you have never answered this question...yet you continue to make this absurd comparison as if they were the same.  Why can't you just man up and admit you're wrong on this one.  They weren't the same by any standard.

I don't grant Buzz any grace....wow....you might want to go back to last year when I said he should be up for BE COY of the award.  Hmmm, oh that's right...you ignore those types of things.  If I may borrow some of your words..."It is absolutely amazing how much" you forget what other posters actually say when you're trying to build a faulty charge...keep it going.

Here's some news for you Chicos - just because you make one statemednt about "I thought Buzz should be Big East COY last year," but have a litany of posts that degrade/question his recruiting and coaching..well...the majority usually speaks to somjeones beliefs.

And as for IF's about the Final Four team...the sooner you get it through your dense head, the better - that:  IF D-Wade wasn't on the  Final Four Team..MU is no better than a 1st round NCAA tam.  DWAde made life extremely easy for Diener, Novak and Jackson.  The guy is a Top 5 player of our generation.  Period.  Diener, Novak and Jackson don't get the looks without DWade on the floor. 

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 06:46:26 PM
Again, that list of D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job would be helpful.

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=667122

And if I can find the list in about 5 seconds of google searching, I would think a well-networked professional with 20 years in the college coaching business just might have a slight edge in knowing what transfers might be coming available.

After all, even Buzz figured out that Jamil Wilson was coming available.  Unless your view is that Wilson just fell in Buzz's lap.

But here's the interesting thing.  What you would have us believe is that as Buzz himself was losing 3 players and 2 recruits to transfer . . .you are implying that it never occurred to him that other teams might be going through the exact same the same thing!!!  Even though Buzz can quote you chapter and verse of how many transfers take place every year!!!

"Gosh, we're losing players to transfer.  We'll just HAVE to take a JUCO now.  Because where in the world would I find a transferring player"

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 06:46:26 PM
Not to mention that BUZZ WAS ALREADY RECRUITING FOR MARQUETTE AS CREAN'S ASSISTANT!!

Gee, I must have forgotten about all of those open scholarships they had prior to Crean (and Taylor, and Nick Williams, and Chritopherson, and Mbakwe, and Hazel) leaving. Who were all of those uncommitted BE starting caliber players that maintained an interest in MU with no open scholarships, that he should have been able to sign in the Summer of 2008?

Did you also forget about all those open scholarships we had prior to Newbill leaving?  Or is Wilson somehow different?

As I said, there are 200 to 300 D1 transfers a year.  Even Buzz will tell yout that 40% of all freshman transfer before their senior year. 

I think we would have been better off taking them rather than JUCOs.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 06:46:26 PM
If we assume he needed 3 or 4 guys, I will look forward to your list of 15-20 BE starting caliber HS players and/or BE starting caliber D1 transfers that were available after Buzz took the job, and after Taylor, Christopherson, etc. made the decision to leave to open up scholarships. It probably wouldn't hurt if they are better than Jimmy Butler too. All he has done is earn All Big East honors the last two years. Why would we want that guy around? He went to a Junior College! Gasp!

I think I could pick 20 to 30 starting calibre players off that list of 300 transfers that became available at about the same time Buzz got the head coaching job.

Quote from: Marquette84 on March 07, 2011, 08:13:39 PM

I think I could pick 20 to 30 starting calibre players off that list of 300 transfers that became available at about the same time Buzz got the head coaching job.

Then let's see 'em. You have the list right there. Now pick out for me the 20-30 guys that are starting caliber BE players, and would have a reasonable interest and/or ability to come to MU.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 08:19:43 PM
Then let's see 'em. You have the list right there. Now pick out for me the 20-30 guys that are starting caliber BE players, and would have a reasonable interest and/or ability to come to MU.

I'd like a shot at this, too....can I pick folks like Roseboro and Newbill, since they signed NLI's and were certainly deemed to be Big East caliber players by this administration?   ;D

Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 08:03:11 PM
Here's some news for you Chicos - just because you make one statemednt about "I thought Buzz should be Big East COY last year," but have a litany of posts that degrade/question his recruiting and coaching..well...the majority usually speaks to somjeones beliefs.

And as for IF's about the Final Four team...the sooner you get it through your dense head, the better - that:  IF D-Wade wasn't on the  Final Four Team..MU is no better than a 1st round NCAA tam.  DWAde made life extremely easy for Diener, Novak and Jackson.  The guy is a Top 5 player of our generation.  Period.  Diener, Novak and Jackson don't get the looks without DWade on the floor. 

Wade was incredible, no one ever said differently.  Did I ever say we would get to the Final Four without Wade?  Nope.  Did I say we would get to the Final Four because of Wade? Nope...you did.  Basketball requires a lot of pieces.  Of course MU is not a Final Four team without Wade, no one ever said differently. However, MU wasn't a Final Four team without Novak, Diener, RJAX and others as well...that's the part you keep forgetting.

I actually complemented Buzz a ton last year and the year prior, you just continue to ignore it.  I also came down on him last year and the year before. I'm an equal opportunity evaluator.  That's the difference. You're a sunshine blower, a cheerleader, smitten lover.  I'm not...thus I can evaluate on both ends of the spectrum.

Quote from: Marquette84 on March 07, 2011, 05:55:52 PM
How about the best facilities in the country, strong fan support and top 10 attendance, a school where the team isn't playing 2nd fiddle to football, outstanding heritage, visibility to NBA players and scouts, 3-4 straight years of 10+ wins in the Big East and NCAA appearances, and most importantly A TON OF STARTING MINUTES OVER THE NEXT TWO SEASONS.

So, Buzz Williams should be expected to do it, while took your hero Tom Crean 3 years to have any kind of real recruiting success at one of the premier basketball schools in the country, in a state with significantly more talent. The difference? Indiana has stunk out loud the last three years, while MU has been to the NCAA tournament.Of course the other difference is that you acknowledge the bad hand Tom Crean was handed by his predecessor, but not the one Buzz Williams inherited (relative to incoming recruits/pipeline).

SJS complains that he would rather suck now in exchange for having different players here through 2012-13. To what end? Can you guaranty we would be better down the road? Are we going to be any worse off in 2012-2013 or after because we had those 4 Jucos? Or, could we actually be better and have been to the NCAA tournament every year in the interim? Who knows? Nobody. As I said earlier, at some point, we were gonna pay in the W/L columns for the sins of Buzz's predecessor. I would suggest that is probably happening now, and we will still manage to make the NCAA tournament.

Of course SJS goes on to say that he would rather have D1 transfers as an alternative. Well guess what, unless they were magically transferring with 4 years remaining, they would all be gone by 2012-2013 as well. As usual his lengthy diatribes come out of both sides of his mouth.

Navin, why would we suck now?   Are you saying teams led by mostly freshmen can't get it done?  Weird, in 2006 an MU team sure did.  Weird.

The "sins of Buzz's predecessor"...that's a classic one.  Ironic since Buzz has also been the beneficiary of the "miracles of Buzz's predecessor"...ironic (not really) that you ignore that part.

Brand new practice center, 4 top 10 scorers in MU history on the roster, two NBA players, guaranteed NCAA berth your first year on the job, Big East conference, etc....damn those "sins of the predecessor".

I wonder when that excuse is done being played...is it year 2018 or 2019?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 08:51:18 PM
Navin, why would we suck now?   Are you saying teams led by mostly freshmen can't get it done?  Weird, in 2006 an MU team sure did.  Weird.

The "sins of Buzz's predecessor"...that's a classic one.  Ironic since Buzz has also been the beneficiary of the "miracles of Buzz's predecessor"...ironic (not really) that you ignore that part.

How did I ignore that smart guy? You're the one who seems to know it all, so you tell me how I ignored that part.

This discussion is almost entirely relative relative to how Buzz handled his first recruiting class (maybe first two). The sins of his predecessor are leaving, and leaving Buzz to have to fill 80% of the roster over the following 18 months. That's it. People like SJS (and others I won't name) are wringing their hands about Juco players and how that was the wrong thing to do. That he should have just gone out and found BE starting caliber HS players to fill out the roster, or all those BE starting caliber D1 transfers who were just waiting by the phone. Had he done that, do you not suspect we would have had a couple of rough years with freshmen and sophs learning how to play?

I am suggesting that the Jucos helped bridge the gap, and kept MU competitive in the BE while that unavoidable roster turnover after Crean's departure followed by the departure of McNeal, Matthews, and James. At some point that was going to catch up with MU. Same would have held true had Crean stayed and for some reason in April of 2008 5 players/recruits suddenly up and left, followed by 3 seniors the following year. Do you deny that?

That's it. So please, tell me how any of that ignores the miracles of his predecessor? Weird.

BTW, how long was Tom Crean recruiting those Freshmen that got it done in 2006 before they committed? I hope the answer is that he started in mid-April of 2004 after he was named head coach, and a bunch of scholarships suddenly opened up, otherwise your suggestion is just plain stupid. Then again, maybe your position is that Buzz should have been able to attract a class of uncommitted players as good as those three guys in that short amount of time. You know, like Crean was able to do when he got to Ind...nevermind.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 08:51:18 PM

I wonder when that excuse is done being played...is it year 2018 or 2019?

Are you talking about MU or Indiana?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 08:51:18 PM
Navin, why would we suck now?   Are you saying teams led by mostly freshmen can't get it done?  Weird, in 2006 an MU team sure did.  Weird.

Never mind that senior who was unanimous first team All-Big East behind the curtain.
(ohh ... ohh ... but I said mostly...).

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 09:17:11 PM
Are you talking about MU or Indiana?

I thought this was a Marquette board, so we're talking about Marquette.  But since you asked, I'd expect IU's excuses stop next year.  Considering they had a walk on and a 1.4 PPG scorer coming back his first year...3 years of excuses seems right.

Now, compare that to our situation.....do you think by year 3 the excuses should still be going on?  Really...are they the same situations?  You're smarter than that.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 07, 2011, 09:19:00 PM
Never mind that senior who was unanimous first team All-Big East behind the curtain.
(ohh ... ohh ... but I said mostly...).

Yup, a wonderful player....wish we had him now.  I seem to recall Dominic James (freshman) and Jerel McNeal (freshman) also made All Big East honors.  Matthews suffered an injury and only played in 2/3 of MU's games that year. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 07:51:11 PM


I don't grant Buzz any grace....wow....you might want to go back to last year when I said he should be up for BE COY of the award.  Hmmm, oh that's right...you ignore those types of things.  If I may borrow some of your words..."It is absolutely amazing how much" you forget what other posters actually say when you're trying to build a faulty charge...keep it going.

You didn't "grant Buzz any grace" last year. With 4 starters gone and Cadougan hurt you thought we were gonna suck. You said if Buzz got us into the tournament he should be National Coach of the Year because you thought there was no chance. You ripped him often throughout the season and wrote his /our NCAA tournament obituary more than once. When we got into the tournament easily, you belittled the accomplishment by babbling on and on about a soft bubble which affected our status not at all.

Your original premise was NCAA 12 seed = National Coach of the Year. Well, he was an NCAA 6 seed. An honest person would have pounded the drum for the guy did this for the team he loved. After Buzz soared 24 spots over the "best in the country" bar you yourself set, what did you do? You moved the goalposts. Buzz hadn't done such a remarkable job afterall, and everyone but your pal 84 had grossly underestimated our talent. Dishonest? Sure. Hypocritical? You bet. But it fit neatly into your preconceptions and prejudices so who cares about the other stuff.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 08:19:43 PM
Then let's see 'em. You have the list right there. Now pick out for me the 20-30 guys that are starting caliber BE players, and would have a reasonable interest and/or ability to come to MU.

Since your'e changing arguments, I guess I've successfully demonstrated the nonsense that there were no transfers available.  

Of course, I know your game is to get me to identify anyone, and have you either question their skill, or hand wave them off by claiming they never would have considered MU.

But I'll play your game.  Of course, I've picked players who either attended a similar school, or who Buzz previously recruited--just so you can't wave them off.

Herb Pope--could have easily seen minutes with Burke leaving and Mbakwe transferring--and wound up at a similar (but lesser) school in the same league.  Gonzo was already on the firing line at Seton Hall. A Pittsburg kid who was considering Big East schools. You've gotta think that anyone with half a brain would have steered Pope to Buzz over Gonzo.

Jordan Crawford--landed at Xavier.  Any player willing to consider a Catholic northern-climate urban school would have at least considered MU, had there been interest.  And with lots of minutes at guard opening at exactly the time Crawford would become eligible, there were plenty of minutes for him.  And with Sean Miller already the hottest prospect in coaching, why jump from one coaching departure to another unless its your only option.

Cory Johnson--MU would have been a much better offer than Valpo.  Was a Freshman starter at Iowa State.  Caught up in a coaching change.  his 15 points/5 rpg would have been nice to have--certainly more than we got out of Liam McMorrow.

Wesley Johnson--got caught up in the same Iowa State coaching change as Johnson.  Texas kid.  He was recruited by Texas A&M (while Buzz was an assistant) and was recruited by MU before he signed with Iowa State. GIven the MU and Buzz connection, its not a stretch to think that we might have had a shot.

Elijah Millsap--another player straight from Buzz's neck of the woods from Grambling, LA.  Also recruited by Texas A&M while Buzz was there.  Originally signed with Louisiana Lafayette, transferred to UAB.  Have to figure that Buzz would have at least got him to entertain an offer.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 09:12:50 PM

BTW, how long was Tom Crean recruiting those Freshmen that got it done in 2006 before they committed? I hope the answer is that he started in mid-April of 2004 after he was named head coach, and a bunch of scholarships suddenly opened up, otherwise your suggestion is just plain stupid. Then again, maybe your position is that Buzz should have been able to attract a class of uncommitted players as good as those three guys in that short amount of time. You know, like Crean was able to do when he got to Ind...nevermind.

BTW, how long has Buzz been on the MU staff?  4 years now...as the lead recruiter and head coach....so using that same logic....nevermind

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 09:19:06 PM
Now, compare that to our situation.....do you think by year 3 the excuses should still be going on?  Really...are they the same situations?  You're smarter than that.

I never said they were the same situation, but I appreciate the words in my mouth.

So just so we're clear. Had Buzz not signed the Jucos and had signed lets say 4 players he could still get when hired from the class of 2008, and regular class of 4-5 players from the class of 2009, what are you suggesting would have been realistic expectations this season? I'd like to know. As I said yesterday, after his second year, there was not a single player from Tom Crean left on the roster. How exactly is that roster turnover Buzz Williams fault? Are you really suggesting that he should be expected to win in the Big East with a roster comprised almost entirely of Freshmen and Sophomores (who were uncommitted and available at the time he got the job)?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 09:25:07 PM
BTW, how long has Buzz been on the MU staff?  4 years now...as the lead recruiter and head coach....so using that same logic....nevermind

How many available scholarships did they have in the few months before Crean decided to leave? Why would any available player even be considering MU at that time? he is to be expected to just jump in on a binch of 4 and 5 star recruits when 5 scholarships suddenly open up and get commitments?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 07, 2011, 09:24:16 PM
You didn't "grant Buzz any grace" last year. With 4 starters gone and Cadougan hurt you thought we were gonna suck. You said if Buzz got us into the tournament he should be National Coach of the Year because you thought there was no chance. You ripped him often throughout the season and wrote his /our NCAA tournament obituary more than once. When we got into the tournament easily, you belittled the accomplishment by babbling on and on about a soft bubble which affected our status not at all.

Your original premise was NCAA 12 seed = National Coach of the Year. Well, he was an NCAA 6 seed. An honest person would have pounded the drum for the guy did this for the team he loved. After Buzz soared 24 spots over the "best in the country" bar you yourself set, what did you do? You moved the goalposts. Buzz hadn't done such a remarkable job afterall, and everyone but your pal 84 had grossly underestimated our talent. Dishonest? Sure. Hypocritical? You bet. But it fit neatly into your preconceptions and prejudices so who cares about the other stuff.

Weird, that's all preseason stuff you mention above....then this thing called THE SEASON happened.  Weird...I guess "grace" comes in the preseason only?  Odd and weird.

I didn't grant him any grace....hmmm....perhaps you can explain these House?  Thanks, I'll hang up and listen

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17616.msg174984#msg174984


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17356.msg171411#msg171411


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=12869.msg115112#msg115112


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15177.msg142884#msg142884


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15963.msg154742#msg154742


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15678.msg151238#msg151238


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14181.msg127258#msg127258  (here's a classic example of praise for Buzz but also a critique...you would view this post as 100% critique)


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13394.msg119913#msg119913


http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13376.msg119923#msg119923



etc, etc, etc, etc.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 08:45:13 PM
So, Buzz Williams should be expected to do it, while took your hero Tom Crean 3 years to have any kind of real recruiting success at one of the premier basketball schools in the country, in a state with significantly more talent. The difference? Indiana has stunk out loud the last three years, while MU has been to the NCAA tournament.Of course the other difference is that you acknowledge the bad hand Tom Crean was handed by his predecessor, but not the one Buzz Williams inherited (relative to incoming recruits/pipeline).

What are you talking about?  In Crean's first recruiting class, he landed Merritt, ODB, and Wade. I'd call that real recruiting success. And it didn't take 3 years to land those players. 

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 08:45:13 PM
SJS complains that he would rather suck now in exchange for having different players here through 2012-13.

Lie.

I said we could have had the same results that we CURRENTLY have with frosh and sophs instead of JUCOs.  We dudb;t need 9 jucos to fall from 5th to 9th. We gained no advantage by recruiting JUCOs.

All I'm saying is that we could have accomplished the same results without resorting to JUCOs--AND we'd have 3 more players returning next year to give us that much-needed experience.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 08:45:13 PM
To what end? Can you guaranty we would be better down the road? Are we going to be any worse off in 2012-2013 or after because we had those 4 Jucos?

Yes. 

Because we now have to replace 3 of our top 8 players from a 9th place team.   I would rather we had 3 more returning starters for next year with our current record, than 3 players leaving, and player with no real D1 experience to replace them.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 08:45:13 PM
Or, could we actually be better and have been to the NCAA tournament every year in the interim? Who knows?
Nobody. As I said earlier, at some point, we were gonna pay in the W/L columns for the sins of Buzz's predecessor. I would suggest that is probably happening now, and we will still manage to make the NCAA tournament.

I guess when you try and fix those sins by running off or failing to retain one entire claass, coupled with ill-fated attempts to replace them with with McMorrow, Roseboro, Maymon, Smith, and Newbill--yeah, there is a price to pay in the W/L column.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 08:45:13 PM
Of course SJS goes on to say that he would rather have D1 transfers as an alternative. Well guess what, unless they were magically transferring with 4 years remaining, they would all be gone by 2012-2013 as well. As usual his lengthy diatribes come out of both sides of his mouth.

In the last three years, we've seen 4 players leave MU alone with 4 years remaining--Taylor, Roseboro, Nick WIlliams and Newbill.  With 344 other D1 schools, maybe you underestimate the number of such 4-year players.

And of course we're talking about two years of recruiting, with most of those transfers coming with 3 years of eligibility.  Magic?  Nope--just Buzz's observation about 40% of players transferring--most of them after one season.

A D1 frosh transfer coming to MU in spring of 2008 with 3 years of eligibility left would play through 2011-12
And a D1 transfer in 2009 with 3 years left would play through 2012-13
And a D1 transfer in 2010 (like Jamil Wilson) with 3 year left will play through 2013-14.

What were you saying about a D1 transfers not being here past 2011-12?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 09:46:31 PM
Weird, that's all preseason stuff you mention above....then this thing called THE SEASON happened.  Weird...I guess "grace" comes in the preseason only?  Odd and weird.

I didn't grant him any grace....hmmm....perhaps you can explain these House?  Thanks, I'll hang up and listen

As your post point out, you ABSOLUTELY say he's COY if he just makes the tourney during the preseason. When it looks like we'll make it, you have him in the top 3, though you think Dixon will win. There are no posts of outrage from after the season when he greatly exceeded your conditions but was not named COY. Why's that Dyckes? I'll hang up and listen.


Oh, loved that you had to include neutral posts in your "Best of Buzz" anthology. Funny.

Since your'e changing arguments, I guess I've successfully demonstrated the nonsense that there were no transfers available.

Not changing arguments. You brought up D1 transfers , I'm simply telling you why you're wrong.

Of course, I know your game is to get me to identify anyone, and have you either question their skill, or hand wave them off by claiming they never would have considered MU.

But I'll play your game.  Of course, I've picked players who either attended a similar school, or who Buzz previously recruited--just so you can't wave them off.

Herb Pope--could have easily seen minutes with Burke leaving and Mbakwe transferring--and wound up at a similar (but lesser) school in the same league.  Gonzo was already on the firing line at Seton Hall. A Pittsburg kid who was considering Big East schools. You've gotta think that anyone with half a brain would have steered Pope to Buzz over Gonzo.

The same Herb Pope who was shot in a fight, and was charged with a DUI within the 12 months prior. Yeah, its tough to figure how he ended up with Gonzo at SHU rather than MU. I'm sure guys like you wouldn't have been bitching had they signed a guy with this kind of baggage.  ::)

Jordan Crawford--landed at Xavier.  Any player willing to consider a Catholic northern-climate urban school would have at least considered MU, had there been interest.  And with lots of minutes at guard opening at exactly the time Crawford would become eligible, there were plenty of minutes for him.  And with Sean Miller already the hottest prospect in coaching, why jump from one coaching departure to another unless its your only option.


LOL! Only option? You are funny. After flirting with Indiana, Sean Miller signed a 10-year extension with Xavier, whom coincidentally enough, Taylor also considered out of HS. BTW, how do you know MU didn't try to get him?


Cory Johnson--MU would have been a much better offer than Valpo.  Was a Freshman starter at Iowa State.  Caught up in a coaching change.  his 15 points/5 rpg would have been nice to have--certainly more than we got out of Liam McMorrow.

So Buzz should have anticipated Liam McMorrow's illness and not signed him. Got it. I guess Buzz should have also anticipated Dominic James' broken foot, and signed a 5-star PG to back him up.

BTW, its 14 ppg and 4 rpg in the Horizon league. You mean to tell me that is a BE starting caliber player?


Wesley Johnson--got caught up in the same Iowa State coaching change as Johnson.  Texas kid.  He was recruited by Texas A&M (while Buzz was an assistant) and was recruited by MU before he signed with Iowa State. GIven the MU and Buzz connection, its not a stretch to think that we might have had a shot.

He did consider Marquette early on in the process. He went to Syracuse. Oh well.  

Elijah Millsap--another player straight from Buzz's neck of the woods from Grambling, LA.  Also recruited by Texas A&M while Buzz was there.  Originally signed with Louisiana Lafayette, transferred to UAB.  Have to figure that Buzz would have at least got him to entertain an offer.

This one makes some sense, though again, how do you know Buzz didn't try?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 07, 2011, 10:04:24 PM

Weird, that's all preseason stuff you mention above....then this thing called THE SEASON happened.  Weird...I guess "grace" comes in the preseason only?  Odd and weird.

I didn't grant him any grace....hmmm....perhaps you can explain these House?  Thanks, I'll hang up and listen

As your post point out, you ABSOLUTELY say he's COY if he just makes the tourney during the preseason. When it looks like we'll make it, you have him in the top 3, though you think Dixon will win. There are no posts of outrage from after the season when he greatly exceeded your conditions but was not named COY. Why's that Dyckes? I'll hang up and listen.


Oh, loved that you had to include neutral posts in your "Best of Buzz" anthology. Funny.

You do understand preseason...right?  Why is it so hard for you to admit that things change?  Post of outrage?  No, because at the end of the day other coaches did better and won the COY...the experts agreed with me and that's why they got it and Buzz didn't.  Doesn't mean Buzz failed, I thought he did a wonderful job.  

Why is it so hard for you to admit you are wrong?  You said I never gave him any grace...sure I did.  Hell, the guy that did the audit said there were over 400 such posts he ranked as positive and less than 200 as negative toward Buzz.  

Your vast majority, never, always, and other ridiculous word plays of fiction just don't cut it when the real facts come out.  I hope when mentoring your clients you are a bit less absolute with your diction.

Some day we should talk about how derivatives have totally screwed over this country economically...maybe you'll have an opinion on that mess.  It might be enjoyable.  

Quote from: Marquette84 on March 07, 2011, 10:00:12 PM
I said we could have had the same results that we CURRENTLY have with frosh and sophs instead of JUCOs.  We dudb;t need 9 jucos to fall from 5th to 9th. We gained no advantage by recruiting JUCOs.

All I'm saying is that we could have accomplished the same results without resorting to JUCOs--AND we'd have 3 more players returning next year to give us that much-needed experience.

You base that on what, considering that our three, maybe 4 best players are those juco's? Who are these HS players Buzz would have been able to land in his first 3 months that would have had us in the NCAA tournament this year and last if we had them instead of Butler, DJO, Crowder, and Buycks? Still looking for that list of 20-30 class o 2008 guys Buzz could have had a shot at in his first class.

BTW, where are you getting 9 jucos from?

Quote from: Marquette84 on March 07, 2011, 10:00:12 PM
And of course we're talking about two years of recruiting, with most of those transfers coming with 3 years of eligibility.  Magic?  Nope--just Buzz's observation about 40% of players transferring--most of them after one season.

A D1 frosh transfer coming to MU in spring of 2008 with 3 years of eligibility left would play through 2011-12
And a D1 transfer in 2009 with 3 years left would play through 2012-13
And a D1 transfer in 2010 (like Jamil Wilson) with 3 year left will play through 2013-14.

What were you saying about a D1 transfers not being here past 2011-12?

OMG, why do I do this? You said...

I would MUCH rather have a .500 team this year dominated by frosh and sophs that will still be here in 2013 and 2014

Your words, not mine. those players would have been in Buzz's first two recruiting classes. Had Buzz gone with all of those available D1 transfers in 2008, and 2009 as you suggested as an alternative to HS players, which are preferable to jucos, explain to me how a single one of them would be here in 2013-2014.


Player with 3 years eligibility transfers in 2008. Is gone after the 2011-2012 season.
Player with 3 years eligibility transfers in 2009. Is gone after the 2012-2013 season.

That's what I was saying. Guess what...A juco who transfers in 2011 could be here in 2013-2014 as well.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 10:19:30 PM
Since your'e changing arguments, I guess I've successfully demonstrated the nonsense that there were no transfers available.

Not changing arguments. You brought up D1 transfers , I'm simply telling you why you're wrong.

Sure you are. 

You first suggested that Buzz was too new to know about D1 transfers available and demanded I give you a list.  Once I produced the list, instead of admitting that you were wrong and vastly underestimated the number of available transfers, you wanted to know which ones we could have landed.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 10:19:30 PM

Herb Pope--could have easily seen minutes with Burke leaving and Mbakwe transferring--and wound up at a similar (but lesser) school in the same league.  Gonzo was already on the firing line at Seton Hall. A Pittsburg kid who was considering Big East schools. You've gotta think that anyone with half a brain would have steered Pope to Buzz over Gonzo.

The same Herb Pope who was shot in a fight, and was charged with a DUI within the 12 months prior. Yeah, its tough to figure how he ended up with Gonzo at SHU rather than MU. I'm sure guys like you wouldn't have been bitching had they signed a guy with this kind of baggage.  ::)

Straw man.

I think most here are more forgiving of the victim than the perpetrator.  And Buzz was already willing to consider Clark and Maymon--without such bitching. 

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 10:19:30 PM
Jordan Crawford--landed at Xavier.  Any player willing to consider a Catholic northern-climate urban school would have at least considered MU, had there been interest.  And with lots of minutes at guard opening at exactly the time Crawford would become eligible, there were plenty of minutes for him.  And with Sean Miller already the hottest prospect in coaching, why jump from one coaching departure to another unless its your only option.


LOL! Only option? You are funny. After flirting with Indiana, Sean Miller signed a 10-year extension with Xavier, whom coincidentally enough, Taylor also considered out of HS. BTW, how do you know MU didn't try to get him?

How long did that 10 year extension last? 

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 10:19:30 PM

Cory Johnson--MU would have been a much better offer than Valpo.  Was a Freshman starter at Iowa State.  Caught up in a coaching change.  his 15 points/5 rpg would have been nice to have--certainly more than we got out of Liam McMorrow.

So Buzz should have anticipated Liam McMorrow's illness and not signed him. Got it. I guess Buzz should have also anticipated Dominic James' broken foot, and signed a 5-star PG to back him up.

No.  Buzz should have anticipated that a player who wasn't dominating in a low-level Canadian conference wasn't Big East material.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 10:19:30 PM
BTW, its 14 ppg and 4 rpg in the Horizon league. You mean to tell me that is a BE starting caliber player?

I don't know.  But I think it compares rather favorably to 8.5 ppg and 6.5 rpg in the Ontario Colleges Athletic Association.

At least a Horizon team made the Final Four last year.   

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 10:19:30 PM

Wesley Johnson--got caught up in the same Iowa State coaching change as Johnson.  Texas kid.  He was recruited by Texas A&M (while Buzz was an assistant) and was recruited by MU before he signed with Iowa State. GIven the MU and Buzz connection, its not a stretch to think that we might have had a shot.

He did consider Marquette early on in the process. He went to Syracuse. Oh well.  

[/quote]

So this whole debate started when you said: "Good grief. Let's ee the list of transfers from that year, and assume that starting on April 15th or whatever day it was, that Buzz would have been able to get to them, and convince them to come on board with a first year head coach they probably never met."

So in one post you claimed that Buzz was too new on the job to be expected to know about transferring players. 

Now you admit that you knew he was involved with Johnson?  How can this be?  You said he was too new on the job--didn't have enough time to get players to consider MU. 

So if we can get one such transfer to consider us, don't you suppose it's possible to have had more consider us?

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 10:19:30 PM

Elijah Millsap--another player straight from Buzz's neck of the woods from Grambling, LA.  Also recruited by Texas A&M while Buzz was there.  Originally signed with Louisiana Lafayette, transferred to UAB.  Have to figure that Buzz would have at least got him to entertain an offer.

This one makes some sense, though again, how do you know Buzz didn't try?

I'm just putting the name out there as a player we would have had a chance with.  That's enough to prove my case. 

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 07, 2011, 10:45:27 PM
OMG, why do I do this? You said...

I would MUCH rather have a .500 team this year dominated by frosh and sophs that will still be here in 2013 and 2014

Your words, not mine. those players would have been in Buzz's first two recruiting classes. Had Buzz gone with all of those available D1 transfers in 2008, and 2009 as you suggested as an alternative to HS players, which are preferable to jucos, explain to me how a single one of them would be here in 2013-2014.

Player with 3 years eligibility transfers in 2008. Is gone after the 2011-2012 season.
Player with 3 years eligibility transfers in 2009. Is gone after the 2012-2013 season.

That's what I was saying. Guess what...A juco who transfers in 2011 could be here in 2013-2014 as well.

After 3 years and five JUCOs in an ill-fated attempt to "balance" classes, we're no better off than had we just gone after the type of frosh we were getting since joining the big East.   

The problem is you're trying to merge two different arguments.

Someone originally said Buzz was forced to take JUCOs to balance the classes--I said he could have done it with D1 transfers as well.  End of that argument.

But then I went on--separate argument--to say that we were wrong to fixate on balancing the classe.  After three years of recruiting JUCOs in an attempt to "balance" the classes, we have a .500 team dominated by junior and senior JUCOs.  I think we could have achieved the same results this year had we landed true freshmen instead of every one of those JUCOs.

And from this year's class, Crowder will be gone after 2012.  A frosh would have been here through 2014.

How many D-1 transfers do you want though? They have to sit out a year. With injuries last year to Cadougan and Otule, it would be tough to have another guy or two sitting out. Also, we had Maymon leave. That would be cutting it pretty thin. Yes, Maymon might not have been surprising, but Reggie Smith wasn't an obvious choice, so it can happen. That's one of the things that makes JUCOs an attractive option. They don't have to sit out a year.

Also, as far as the D-1 transfer list you provided, just because you list them doesn't mean they are viable options. Who knows what they were looking for in a school? It is a two way street. Buzz may have pursued a few of those guys and they wanted no part of MU.

When trying to rebuild a team (post Amigos that's what Buzz was facing with the lack of an 07 class), I don't know if D-1 transfers are the way to go. I feel they are for more established teams. For example, we have a bit more stability, so taking Wilson made more sense. Hansbrough was a very successful transfer and he walked into a team with a bunch of juniors and seniors.

Marquette 84, Crowder might not have been recruited if the FR Maymon did not leave.  Butler came in after all the 2008 class was compeletly picked through.  We signed 4 High school player's last year and we are probably going to have 3 this year.  What do you want.  WISC has few HM and WISC gets some of them right off the bat.  After Maymon left what should Buzz have done go get a 2 star power forward to replace him?  That player would have never seen the floor and we for sure would be NIT bound without Crowder.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 10:33:02 PM
 

 I hope when mentoring your clients you are a bit less absolute with your diction.

 

I know you've devoted an awful lot of time to stalking me. I know you think you're being "clever" when you call me by name or you insinuate that you know something  about my professional or personal life. Number one, you know less than you think you know. Number two, it's creepy and reflects poorly on you.

I do love how Crean gets so much credit for "landing Wade."  We won out over Bradley.  No BCS school could take him due to his partial qualifier status.  Due to MU being in Conference USA at that time and NOT the Big East, we were able to roll the dice on Wade.  Great move.  But let's not pretend it was some hotly contested recruiting battle we won.  We can credit Crean for winning Matthews, James, McNeal, Novak, Diener, Merritt, and ODB - but Wade??  Nope.  Not nearly as competitive as the above recruiting wins for Crean.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 10:33:02 PM


Some day we should talk about how derivatives have totally screwed over this country economically...maybe you'll have an opinion on that mess.  It might be enjoyable.  

So you want to sit down and have an enjoyable and fruitful discussion on "how derivatives have totally screwed over this country economically". Sorry, but I'm disinclined to discuss  complex issues with someone who reduces them to a simplistic sound bite. And judging from that sound bite, it seems as if you (as usual, but please don't say I said always) think you have the answers anyway.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 10:33:02 PM
You do understand preseason...right?  Why is it so hard for you to admit that things change?  Post of outrage?  No, because at the end of the day other coaches did better and won the COY...the experts agreed with me and that's why they got it and Buzz didn't.  Doesn't mean Buzz failed, I thought he did a wonderful job.  

 You said I never gave him any grace...sure I did.  Hell, the guy that did the audit said there were over 400 such posts he ranked as positive and less than 200 as negative toward Buzz.  

Ah, the audit. The still unpublished audit. The unbiased, scientific audit that when published would once and for all prove how positive you are on Buzz. Two months ago you trumpeted its release as imminent. Now all you'll offer is that your guy (84?) ranked your posts and found more positive than negative. LOL

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 08, 2011, 10:05:55 AM
Ah, the audit. The still unpublished audit. The unbiased, scientific audit that when published would once and for all prove how positive you are on Buzz. Two months ago you trumpeted its release as imminent. Now all you'll offer is that your guy (84?) ranked your posts and found more positive than negative. LOL

Wait ... someone actually conducted an audit of thousands of Chico's posts to determine whether they were pro- or anti-Buzz? For real?

Quote from: Pakuni on March 08, 2011, 10:18:05 AM
Wait ... someone actually conducted an audit of thousands of Chico's posts to determine whether they were pro- or anti-Buzz? For real?

Absolutely. Chicos and one of his buddies claim to have sifted through thousands of posts and, using their own arbitrary standards, determined which were positive and which were negative towards Buzz. Chicos had us on the edge of our collective seats for weeks advertising its release and then nothing. It was reminscient of Geraldo Rivera and the Al Capone vault fiasco.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 08, 2011, 10:05:55 AM
Ah, the audit. The still unpublished audit. The unbiased, scientific audit that when published would once and for all prove how positive you are on Buzz. Two months ago you trumpeted its release as imminent. Now all you'll offer is that your guy (84?) ranked your posts and found more positive than negative. LOL

I cannot stop laughing at this. How come I never heard of this?

Ners. Wew can't credit Crean for recruiting wade because it wasn't competitive enough?  If Ox turns out similar, do we get to say the same thing about Buzz?  After all he only beat out USF for his services.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 08, 2011, 10:53:38 AM
Ners. Wew can't credit Crean for recruiting wade because it wasn't competitive enough?  If Ox turns out similar, do we get to say the same thing about Buzz?  After all he only beat out USF for his services.

The big boys didn't stay away from Wade because of who he was on the court. They were forced to stay away because of his academics. Thus our competition was artificially reducesd to the Illinois States and Bradleys of the world. Everybody was free to go after Gardner, but most thought he was unworty as a basketball player. Big difference.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 08, 2011, 10:53:38 AM
Ners. Wew can't credit Crean for recruiting wade because it wasn't competitive enough?  If Ox turns out similar, do we get to say the same thing about Buzz?  After all he only beat out USF for his services.

I'd say this is a fair statement, definitely.  Unfortunately we all know Ox won't turn out to be D-Wade, but I definitely can see him being as good as R-Jax as a senior.  Very similar games/skill sets actually - both good hands, feet, touch, shooting stroke - neither very athletic.

But to the original question/point - yes, I do feel landing a hotly contested recruit deserves more credit than landing a B-list type of recruit.  As we know, however, the A-list/Top 100 kids, aren't always as good as the 200-400 kids.

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 08, 2011, 10:42:49 AM
I cannot stop laughing at this. How come I never heard of this?

It was very real, and very talked about here...and absolutely hilarious and reflective of the degree of goober of the Bondsman.  Pure comedy!!

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 08, 2011, 10:05:55 AM
Ah, the audit. The still unpublished audit. The unbiased, scientific audit that when published would once and for all prove how positive you are on Buzz. Two months ago you trumpeted its release as imminent. Now all you'll offer is that your guy (84?) ranked your posts and found more positive than negative. LOL

Nobody's done any scientific audit.

But it doesn't take much effort to prove that your "vast majority" comment to be false. 

You were out of line when you made it. Why you didn't simply apologize for it an move on weeks ago is beyond me. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 08, 2011, 10:38:11 AM
Absolutely. Chicos and one of his buddies claim to have sifted through thousands of posts and, using their own arbitrary standards, determined which were positive and which were negative towards Buzz. Chicos had us on the edge of our collective seats for weeks advertising its release and then nothing. It was reminscient of Geraldo Rivera and the Al Capone vault fiasco.

Not one of my buddies at all...he is a poster here that has his agreements and disagreements with me.  In fact, with all the back and forth going on here and the "timeouts", I asked him not to publish it because it would just lead to more nonsense.  I think the mods would agree.

Pakuni...no....I asked if there were any auditors here in the community and several PM'd saying they were. I was tired of Lenny's constant absolutes of ALways, Never, Vast Majority, blah blah blah.  He had said the "vast majority" of my Buzz posts were negative.  Well, that's a flat out fallacy and is easily proven if someone has the time.  After he kept stating it, I asked for an auditor here because if I did the study, Lenny would pooh pooh it.  I'd rather have an independent source.

So he looked at just the Buzz posts of mine and found, as I knew he would, that his claim was pure garbage by multiple X factors....not even close.  Due to the fireworks here from last month where we had people taking timeouts, I asked him not to publish it but he has the data and could certainly publish if I asked.  I don't think the mods would enjoy that but if they say it's ok, I'll happily ask him to do so.

I have no problem with people attacking my views, rebutting them, whatever.  But do so with actual evidence, not made up nonsense and claims that are so outrageous that only someone delusional could buy into them.

That is all...Rocky has asked us to cool it.  I'm trying to be nice here...the data exists, I thought I was being nice by not having it published and showing how incredibly wrong you were.  Call it cura personalis.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 08, 2011, 03:01:43 PM
Not one of my buddies at all...he is a poster here that has his agreements and disagreements with me.  In fact, with all the back and forth going on here and the "timeouts", I asked him not to publish it because it would just lead to more nonsense.  I think the mods would agree.

Pakuni...no....I asked if there were any auditors here in the community and several PM'd saying they were. I was tired of Lenny's constant absolutes of ALways, Never, Vast Majority, blah blah blah.  He had said the "vast majority" of my Buzz posts were negative.  Well, that's a flat out fallacy and is easily proven if someone has the time.  After he kept stating it, I asked for an auditor here because if I did the study, Lenny would pooh pooh it.  I'd rather have an independent source.

So he looked at just the Buzz posts of mine and found, as I knew he would, that his claim was pure garbage by multiple X factors....not even close.  Due to the fireworks here from last month where we had people taking timeouts, I asked him not to publish it but he has the data and could certainly publish if I asked.  I don't think the mods would enjoy that but if they say it's ok, I'll happily ask him to do so.

I have no problem with people attacking my views, rebutting them, whatever.  But do so with actual evidence, not made up nonsense and claims that are so outrageous that only someone delusional could buy into them.

That is all...Rocky has asked us to cool it.  I'm trying to be nice here...the data exists, I thought I was being nice by not having it published and showing how incredibly wrong you were.  Call it cura personalis.

You and your buddy/auditor are incredible. I'll drop it because Rocky said to, but for you to call what you've done Cura Personalis is unbelieveable.

Peace, anyway.

Clash of the apologists. Either Buzz is god or Crean is god. Like tribal warfare, but with less paint.

freezer = bagder troll. Go away rodent.

Quote from: Marquette84 on March 07, 2011, 08:13:39 PM


I think we would have been better off taking them rather than JUCOs.

I think I could pick 20 to 30 starting calibre players off that list of 300 transfers that became available at about the same time Buzz got the head coaching job.

Why?

The thing i find so baffling in your constant rants against the job Buzz has done so far as head coach is the JUCO angle. It truly does strike me as incredibly bizarre.

Now i could understand your incessant rants about Buzz bringing in multiple JUCO kids over transfers as you seem to prefer if

1. The JUCO kids Buzz brought in all pretty much have sucked on the court.

2. Some of the JUCO kids got in trouble off the court and basically brought negative light on the university.

3. They were all two year JUCO kids.

4. The program didn't win the last two years.

5. There is very little high school talent on the roster leaving a program that looks like the next few years could be very bleak as the transfers leave..

Yet, i don't see any of those to actually have happened or be true.

Butler and DJO have not only performed fabulously and thus helped allow MU to get into the NCAA Tournament the last two years instead of having down seasons, both will have been three year players at Marquette. Three very productive years. Not a lot of high school recruits will produce three good years like they will have.

Buycks has been a solid contributor. Crowder has been really good this year and will be back next year with DJO to help us win games.

None, none of the JUCO kids have got in the slightest bit of trouble. All have represented the university wonderfully.

The roster does still have it's share of high school kids on the roster to hopefully contribute to wins going forward. Vander. Erik Williams. Otule. Junior. Gardner. Jones. Wilson will be eligible next year. Buzz currently has two high school recruits coming in for this recruiting class.

So where exactly have been all these negatives by Buzz bringing in multiple very productive JUCO kids, negatives that outweigh the positives brought on by the JUCO's helping significantly the last two years to make the big dance along with DJO/Crowder being on the team to help next year?

I'm just really at a loss to explain all the constant venom you have with the  Buzz bringing in the JUCO'S he has so far? What exactly would these hypothetical transfers you wanted instead and that may not have even chosen MU done better than the JUCO's Buzz brought in?

I get that you can't stand Buzz being our coach and he certainly hasn't been perfect, but of the things someone can try to criticize Buzz for, the JUCO angle makes zero sense to given given how well they've performed on/off the court for the university.