My god, guys, they lost one bad game--first if the year--to a team that's in the RPI top 100. And guess what, this team is still in, like it or not. We have great wins including a fantastic road win and have one not-so-good loss on the ROAD. Everyone calm down and sleep before posting more garbage that you'll regret.
How dare you be a voice of reason. WE ARE MARQUETTE. We have every right to be outraged. Anything less than Big East titles at this point or Top 4 finishes are unaccpetable. Or so some idiots here believe. Some here don't care that Nova and UCONN under Jay Wright and Jim Calhoun could only muster 9-9 this year. WE ARE MARQUETTE -and have a legacy of conference championships. Wait..maybe not..but since we are a basketball only school, in probably the 2nd or 3rd lest attractive city in the Big East conference - we should expect more out of our program.
By watching the game, we all know it was a bad if not horrible loss... but looking at the computers, does this qualify?
Prior to the game, SHU's rpi was 96 and their kenpom was 61. I'm asking genuinely... it definitely wasn't a good one, but is it a "bad" loss?
Quote from: wardle2wade on March 06, 2011, 01:03:27 AM
By watching the game, we all know it was a bad if not horrible loss... but looking at the computers, does this qualify?
Prior to the game, SHU's rpi was 96 and their kenpom was 61. I'm asking genuinely... it definitely wasn't a good one, but is it a "bad" loss?
Not a bad loss at all by technical standards. We pretty much locked SHU into the RPI top 100. It isn't good, but not at all the disaster the naysayers are claiming.
Quote from: Ners on March 05, 2011, 10:54:31 PM
How dare you be a voice of reason. WE ARE MARQUETTE. We have every right to be outraged. Anything less than Big East titles at this point or Top 4 finishes are unaccpetable. Or so some idiots here believe. Some here don't care that Nova and UCONN under Jay Wright and Jim Calhoun could only muster 9-9 this year. WE ARE MARQUETTE -and have a legacy of conference championships. Wait..maybe not..but since we are a basketball only school, in probably the 2nd or 3rd lest attractive city in the Big East conference - we should expect more out of our program.
When you finish in the Big East
2006 4th
2007 5th
2008 5th
2009 5th
2010 5th
2011 11th....well, let's just say Mu has proven the previous 5 years what its capable of. I guess we shouldn't aspire to those silly expectations....
What's ironic as hell is your posts the last two years saying we were on our way to Final Fours, Big East titles, etc...you got us all fired up ners and now you're backing down. Why?
Quote from: windyplayer on March 05, 2011, 10:34:46 PM
My god, guys, they lost one bad game--first if the year--to a team that's in the RPI top 100. And guess what, this team is still in, like it or not. We have great wins including a fantastic road win and have one not-so-good loss on the ROAD. Everyone calm down and sleep before posting more garbage that you'll regret.
Yeah, let's get busy polishing that turd we all saw yesterday...QUICKLY! Enough of this "no bad losses" bulls***. We played about the worst basketball I've seen since the Western Mich. game of the NIT the past two games, when we should be improving, and playing with some sort of intensity/urgency.
Again, if you think we're in with 9-9, and 14 losses trash, fine. I think it leaves us left out on Selection Sunday. Our only way in now is to somehow make a run in the BET, probably two wins.
Did you read the post, Lab_Warrior? No one is saying it's not a tough game to lose against a less-than-quality opponent, but I think teams are entitled to one of these a year especially on the road. I know it didn't come at the most opportune time, but this team still has plenty to be hopeful for come selection Sunday as long as they take care of business against the Friars.
One point ... SH was not a bad loss
SH Gonzaga
KenPom = 56 33
Sagarin = 68 45
RT RPI = 97 66
ESPN RPI = 91 63
Before last night our worst loss was Gonzaga. Now it is SH. But the standard definition of a "bad loss" is RPI above 100. SH is just under that.
So when ESPN runs the tourney resume graphic next week, "bad loss" will still be listed as "none".
Additional thought .... of the 13 losses we have. 11 are in the tourney teams, Gonzaga is a bubble team and SH is out, unless they make a huge run in the BE tourney.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 01:19:17 AM
When you finish in the Big East
2006 4th
2007 5th
2008 5th
2009 5th
2010 5th
2011 11th....well, let's just say Mu has proven the previous 5 years what its capable of. I guess we shouldn't aspire to those silly expectations....
What's ironic as hell is your posts the last two years saying we were on our way to Final Fours, Big East titles, etc...you got us all fired up ners and now you're backing down. Why?
If you want to split the hairs between finishing 8th or 11th we can - as there were several 9-9 teams as you are aware. Considering the mess Buzz Williams walked into at Marquette, due to the shoddy recruiting of Tom Crean after the Big 3, Tom Crean's transfers, as well as the kids who signed with MU, only to leave after the coaching change - MU hit a bump. The fact the performance hasn't dropped off further is a HUGE testament to our head coach.
Again, in your world, give it 5 years. Even the UNC's of the world have off years. And even the IU's of the world have 3 straight horrendous years, no being able to eclipse 3 conference wins. Newsflash Chicos - maybe 2 programs (Duke and Kansas) can claim they've been Top 3 or 4 in their conference of 12 teams for every season the last decade. But hey, in your view, given that MU is not a blue blood, elite college program - MU should stil compete at that level, right?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 01:19:17 AM
When you finish in the Big East
2006 4th
2007 5th
2008 5th
2009 5th
2010 5th
2011 11th....well, let's just say Mu has proven the previous 5 years what its capable of. I guess we shouldn't aspire to those silly expectations....
Chicos "facts" Actual Facts
2006 4th - tied for 4th, 5th and 6th
2007 5th tied for 5th and 6th
2008 5th - tied for 5th and 6th
2009 5th - 5th
2010 5th - tied for 5th and 6th
2011 11th - tied for 9th, 10th and 11th
Don't you ever get tired of this BS? How can you do crap like this and say with a straight face you don't have an agenda?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 06, 2011, 09:50:49 AM
Chicos "facts" Actual Facts
2006 4th - tied for 4th, 5th and 6th
2007 5th tied for 5th and 6th
2008 5th - tied for 5th and 6th
2009 5th - 5th
2010 5th - tied for 5th and 6th
2011 11th - tied for 9th, 10th and 11th
Don't you ever get tired of this BS? How can you do crap like this and say with a straight face you don't have an agenga?
Can't wait for the highly charged reply coming at you Lenny's telling you what a joke you are. As is usually the case when Chicos agendas get revelaed and he's left with egg on his face - he comes out in rants that are usually so far off topic and emotionally charged - to hopefully divert the issue.
What a complete tool to have to live one's life in such a fashion as CBB - to pretend something to be ture, that really is not. A complete farce. Sad.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 06, 2011, 01:05:58 AM
Not a bad loss at all by technical standards. We pretty much locked SHU into the RPI top 100. It isn't good, but not at all the disaster the naysayers are claiming.
So that's how far MU's program has fallen, huh?
"Not a bad loss by technical standards?" How about the simple standard of how they played...the eye test. MU had everything in the world to play for. It was literally a play-in game for the NCAA tourney and MU couldn't be bothered to play with any desire, fire or intensity. You can't measure it "technically," but something is wrong with the team. You don't come out flat on senior day (and another play-in game) and follow that with an even more uninspired performance if everything is A-OK with the team and coaching staff.
Is there anyone out there who is satistified with the way this season has gone?
I am disappointed that we failed to overachieve. But to borrow from the inimitable Dennis Green rant, we are who they thought we were. We were picked anywhere from 7 (IIRC) to 12 in the BEast. The pre-season pundits pretty much nailed it. I, like most of the rest of the board, was expecting us to out-perform those expectations. We didn't.
Quote from: Ners on March 05, 2011, 10:54:31 PM
How dare you be a voice of reason. WE ARE MARQUETTE. We have every right to be outraged. Anything less than Big East titles at this point or Top 4 finishes are unaccpetable. Or so some idiots here believe. Some here don't care that Nova and UCONN under Jay Wright and Jim Calhoun could only muster 9-9 this year. WE ARE MARQUETTE -and have a legacy of conference championships. Wait..maybe not..but since we are a basketball only school, in probably the 2nd or 3rd lest attractive city in the Big East conference - we should expect more out of our program.
Your hyperbole is obnoxious.
Quote from: Mutaman on March 06, 2011, 10:52:06 AM
Is there anyone out there who is satistified with the way this season has gone?
"Satisfied," no. I am not satisfied. I am, however, a realist, and while I had hoped we would have a better overall record, not blown large late game leads, and crushed all BE competition, I, like many on this board thought we would have difficulty this year. The fact that we have had failures to meet my hoped expectations does not leave me satisfied, but it doesn't make me run for the hills screaming in fear either.
Quote from: TJ on March 06, 2011, 10:58:51 AM
Your hyperbole is obnoxious.
No more obnoxious than those who are all up in arms over how bad this team is, that Buzz should be canned, etc.
However, if you would, please do rebut the content of my post and tell me why my "hyperbole" is so far off base and obnoxious, than the reality of a lot of what gets thrown out around here with regard to expectations/overreactions.
Quote from: tower912 on March 06, 2011, 10:55:54 AM
I am disappointed that we failed to overachieve. But to borrow from the inimitable Dennis Green rant, we are who they thought we were. We were picked anywhere from 7 (IIRC) to 12 in the BEast. The pre-season pundits pretty much nailed it. I, like most of the rest of the board, was expecting us to out-perform those expectations. We didn't.
This is the part that really p!$$e$ me off. When the preseason predictions came out, I believed we could do better than projected. judging from the early season posts, many of you felt the same way. Preseason optimism one might call it. As the season progressed, and we saw flashes of positive things from our team, and individual players as well, we had reason for continued optimism. We came up short against some tough OOC teams, (UW, Vandy) but continued on and beat who we were supposed to beat. "No bad losses." The we won some big games in conference (ND, SU, UConn). We were looking pretty good heading into the Cincy game.
So, I ask everyone who says we finished where we were predicted to finish, or we tied with Villanova and UConn, or we are who they say we are, ath that point in the season, were you not thinking - "predictions be damned, we are in a position to show those preseason prognasticators that hey were wrong and we were right? So then we begin our tailspin, and finish the season playing arguably our worst basketball of the season, and suddenly, it's okay because that's how we were supposed to finish?
I'm not happy. I'm very disappointed we finished where we were predicted to finish. It doesn't make me feel any better that THEY we right and I (WE?) were wrong in the preseason. We had it right there to take it. Just win the games we were supposed to win in the last couple of weeks and right now we'd be a "lock."
BTW Tower, not a personal attack, just right now I'm upset that we had this set up and we didn't seize the opportunity.
I didn't take it personally. The opportunities were there and we didn't seize them because we were the limited team that the preseason pundits thought we were. Sure, I'm frustrated. The almosts are infuriating. Seizing them would have meant we were indeed better than predicted. But for whatever reason, this team never found a way to perform in the crunch, never found a way to become more than the sum of their parts, never found the magic.
I don't get the people who argue "We were predicted in the begining of the year to end up where we did, or Uconn and Nova are 9-9" Is that relevant at all? Who gives a F#*K where they end up or where we were predicted to end up. The fact is that MU shouldn't be 11th in the BEAST and should have locked a spot a while ago. The lack of focus and determination with other things is why we're in the situation we're in right now. That is why fans aren't happy.
"Some kids play sports for the juice box and dinosaur snacks after the game and some just win!"
I'm with Connie & Tower.
Quote from: JDuquaine on March 06, 2011, 12:59:17 PM
I don't get the people who argue "We were predicted in the begining of the year to end up where we did, or Uconn and Nova are 9-9" Is that relevant at all? Who gives a F#*K where they end up or where we were predicted to end up. The fact is that MU shouldn't be 11th in the BEAST and should have locked a spot a while ago. The lack of focus and determination with other things is why we're in the situation we're in right now. That is why fans aren't happy.
"Some kids play sports for the juice box and dinosaur snacks after the game and some just win!"
Are you a spoiled teenager? Or were you a spoiled child growing up? Newsflash - you don't get to win and have things your way every single year - not in life, and certainly not in sports. Seems all of your posts I recall reading recently are all of an "entitled" sort.
Are you a spoiled teenager? Or were you a spoiled child growing up? Newsflash - you don't get to win and have things your way every single year - not in life, and certainly not in sports. Seems all of your posts I recall reading recently are all of an "entitled" sort.
Yeah I am an only child, how is the relevant? Pardon me everybody for having "realistic" expectations that weren't met in my opinion. I guess I just ask way to much!
Seton hall is ine the top 100, so this is not a bad loss. Mu remains one of only 23 teams in the country without a bad loss. As I've document, seton hall's sagarin rating since hazell returned would put them in the ncaa, so we lost to a tourney-level team that had just killed st johns and they were at home.
No question we played purely, but your post is right on.
Quote from: JDuquaine on March 06, 2011, 12:59:17 PM
I don't get the people who argue "We were predicted in the begining of the year to end up where we did, or Uconn and Nova are 9-9" Is that relevant at all? Who gives a F#*K where they end up or where we were predicted to end up. The fact is that MU shouldn't be 11th in the BEAST and should have locked a spot a while ago. The lack of focus and determination with other things is why we're in the situation we're in right now. That is why fans aren't happy.
"Some kids play sports for the juice box and dinosaur snacks after the game and some just win!"
I see a flawed team, an inconsistent team, a team that has had flashes of brilliance but hasn't been able to sustain them. I see a team that has been poor on defense, erratic in rebounding, with inconsistency at PG, SG, C, PF. But I've felt that way a lot of years. Most of the Dukiet years, a lot of the Deane years. I see Villanova fans calling Wright a lousy coach, Syracuse fans losing their minds because they lost 4 straight, Sparty fans wondering if Izzo lost it....there are a lot of PO'd fanbases out there. 344 teams end up ticked at the end of the season. So, I'm frustrated that this team did not perform to my optimistic expectations. Just like I was disappointed by the Tigers, Lions, Pistons, Phil Mickelson, US Ryder Cup team. Of all of those, the one I am least pessimistic about long term is MU hoops. It was an underperforming year, relative to expectations. Oops.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 01:09:06 PM
Are you a spoiled teenager? Or were you a spoiled child growing up? Newsflash - you don't get to win and have things your way every single year - not in life, and certainly not in sports. Seems all of your posts I recall reading recently are all of an "entitled" sort.
You have no frickin' idea Ners - and what does that have to do with anything? Oh yeah, I was entitled How about you walk in my shoes for a day pal?
Not that it matters, but if we are picked to finish 11th in the BE next year (a very distinct possibility), should we be happy when he finish there? Just asking.
Quote from: ecompt on March 06, 2011, 01:24:24 PM
Not that it matters, but if we are picked to finish 11th in the BE next year (a very distinct possibility), should we be happy when he finish there? Just asking.
I know I won't be. I want better. I want my team to improve every year as well as during the year. I am not happy about this year. I am incredibly frustrated. If we are picked 11th pre-season next year, my first thought is to support the team as best I can to hope they exceed that pick.
Quote from: tower912 on March 06, 2011, 10:55:54 AM
I am disappointed that we failed to overachieve. But to borrow from the inimitable Dennis Green rant, we are who they thought we were. We were picked anywhere from 7 (IIRC) to 12 in the BEast. The pre-season pundits pretty much nailed it. I, like most of the rest of the board, was expecting us to out-perform those expectations. We didn't.
7th to 12th is quite a spread...not sure they "nailed it" if their selection range occupies 38% of the possible outcomes.
In the 3 way tie we are in, I would say they pretty much nailed it.
Quote from: tower912 on March 06, 2011, 10:55:54 AM
I am disappointed that we failed to overachieve. But to borrow from the inimitable Dennis Green rant, we are who they thought we were. We were picked anywhere from 7 (IIRC) to 12 in the BEast. The pre-season pundits pretty much nailed it. I, like most of the rest of the board, was expecting us to out-perform those expectations. We didn't.
Well said.
We had a history of over achievement with Buzz. I predicted 10-8, 7th place while admitting I was being optimistic. So I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed.
To me the loss is only part of the issue. It seems to me that many have lost faith in Buzz and the is worrisome. More importantly, many of the loyal Buzz supporters from Day One are getting antsy. I was completely against the hire because I felt Buzz was in over his head. It appears to me that we need to rally the troops or the wheels fall off big time.
Our AD is not a basketball guy and a new president that may or may not have ball a big part of agenda. All I know the DWade Final Four seems like it was twenty years ago. The time is now for Buzz to prove all his early supporters correct or we are in trouble.
Quote from: romey on March 06, 2011, 01:19:30 PM
You have no frickin' idea Ners - and what does that have to do with anything? Oh yeah, I was entitled How about you walk in my shoes for a day pal?
Hey weirdo - 1) the statement wasn't directed at you. 2) it was confirmed by the intended target that he was an only child/spoiled.
As for you, I'll gladly pass at the invite to walk in your shoes for a day pal - you seem like a real nut job.
Quote from: ecompt on March 06, 2011, 01:24:24 PM
Not that it matters, but if we are picked to finish 11th in the BE next year (a very distinct possibility), should we be happy when he finish there? Just asking.
Great question...especially after finishing 4th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th and now 11th.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 02:17:10 PM
Great question...especially after finishing 4th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th and now 11th.
Why aren't you consistent on the tiebreakers? Why pick us on the bottom of the tiebreaker this year but at the top end for all other years? I'd say it's seeding on the BEast tourney, but in '08 we were a 6 seed.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 02:15:06 PM
Hey weirdo - 1) the statement wasn't directed at you. 2) it was confirmed by the intended target that he was an only child/spoiled.
As for you, I'll gladly pass at the invite to walk in your shoes for a day pal - you seem like a real nut job.
I apologize Ners, but I had pretty much just written the post and when I came back to the thread, I read your post in response to someone who had made a comment with the same basic premise as mine. Before the Cincy game, would any of us honestly have said we would NOT be disappointed if we lost the next three games? And would any of us at that same time not have agreed that we were going to prove the preseason predictions wrong? At the beginning of the season 9-9 didn't look too bad, and was "realistic". Before the UC game, 9-9 looked like a "miss," a disappointing finish.
I'm just a passionate (currently disappointed) lifelong MU fan, and I flew off the handle. I'm not a nut job. ;)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 02:17:10 PM
Great question...especially after finishing 4th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th and now 11th.
Actually 4th,5th and 6th (tie), 5th and 6th (tie), 5th and 6th (tie), 5th, 5th and 6th (tie) and now 9th, 10th and 11th (tie).
Even when you have the facts on your side (the piss on this year's MU team side), you still have to fudge them (lie, basically) to make them look better. It's who you are. Character revealed.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 11:06:40 AM
No more obnoxious than those who are all up in arms over how bad this team is, that Buzz should be canned, etc.
However, if you would, please do rebut the content of my post and tell me why my "hyperbole" is so far off base and obnoxious, than the reality of a lot of what gets thrown out around here with regard to expectations/overreactions.
The following is obnoxious, and you repeat it over and over and over in different forms.
Quote from: Ners on March 05, 2011, 10:54:31 PM
How dare you be a voice of reason. WE ARE MARQUETTE. We have every right to be outraged. Anything less than Big East titles at this point or Top 4 finishes are unaccpetable. Or so some idiots here believe.
Your gross exaggeration (or "hyperbole") when you get sarcastic is obnoxious. No one besides willie has said a single thing about Big East Titles or Top 4 finishes. People are disappointed that we're not in the top half, that we didn't get to 10 wins, that we blew a TON of games on the way and just one of them would have put us at that level. Yet you continue to falsely exaggerate others' expectations to make it seem like people are upset we didn't beat out PITT for #1. Yes, you're being sarcastic, but sometimes I don't know how close to reality that statement is for you, since you never ever make a post about others' expectations in which you lay them out realistically.
Quote from: Ners on March 05, 2011, 10:54:31 PM
Some here don't care that Nova and UCONN under Jay Wright and Jim Calhoun could only muster 9-9 this year.
As to this, I simply don't care and most people agree. The fact that other schools have a mediocre season is not an excuse for MU to do the same.
Quote from: Ners on March 05, 2011, 10:54:31 PM
WE ARE MARQUETTE -and have a legacy of conference championships. Wait..maybe not..but since we are a basketball only school, in probably the 2nd or 3rd lest attractive city in the Big East conference - we should expect more out of our program.
I wonder why you think so poorly of our program, the program you claim to root for, and put it down so often. Is it just to try to make Buzz look better? Having reasonably high expectations (as in finishes in the top half or better than .500) is not a bad thing; I would argue that your expectations are too low given our program's history since joining the Big East. We should try to continue that success, not put it down as "over achievement" and claim that our rightful place is lower than that.
I don't get how fans can be excited we are tied with 'nova and UConn. I want to be tied with Pitt. I doubt if Badger fans would be do cartwheels if they had similar finish. We play in tough conference...big deal. This is the conference we are in and I believe our expectations should be higher than many on his board.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 06, 2011, 02:30:51 PM
Actually 4th,5th and 6th (tie), 5th and 6th (tie), 5th and 6th (tie), 5th, 5th and 6th (tie) and now 9th, 10th and 11th (tie).
Even when you have the facts on your side (the piss on this year's MU team side), you still have to fudge them (lie, basically) to make them look better. It's who you are. Character revealed.
Oh good Lord. Yes, the Stat Sheet basketball website where I got them was lying....what a tool.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2005-2006
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2006-2007
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2007-2008
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2008-2009
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2009-2010
Those liars
But let's use yours, just so we're all on the same page, because I sure wouldn't want you to get all upset.
4th\5th\6th
5th\6th
5th\6th
5th
5th\6th
9th\10th\11th
If, as ecompt asked, we are picked 11th next year and we "achieve" 11th (whether that's with a 3 way tie or whatever) what does that mean.
Now look at the numbers above, whether you use the ones I took from Stat Sheet (
you know, the Character revealed LYING numbers who has a long history of trying to lie to their viewers over the years) or using your version, I don't really care.....which one isn't like the others?
Character revealed
Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 02:43:15 PM
I don't get how fans can be excited we are tied with 'nova and UConn. I want to be tied with Pitt. I doubt if Badger fans would be do cartwheels if they had similar finish. We play in tough conference...big deal. This is the conference we are in and I believe our expectations should be higher than many on his board.
Exactly. Some of the same people today saying how wonderful it is that we finished "tied" with UCONN and Villanova for 9th (or 10th or 11th) were bitching a fit that we weren't breaking through and finishing higher than 5th \ 6th in years past.
Character revealed for some of these people.
With the money we spend, the league we are in, we should be pushing to be in the top of the conference at a MINIMUM, not finishing 9th\10th\11th. I assure you that UCONN and Nova fans aren't happy to be finishing where they did, why are some of our fans?
And Goose...please don't bring up the program 75 miles to the west of us...
it's NOT FAIR.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 02:44:15 PM
Oh good Lord. Yes, the Stat Sheet basketball website where I got them was lying....what a tool.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2005-2006
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2006-2007
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2007-2008
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2008-2009
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2009-2010
Those liars
But let's use yours, just so we're all on the same page, because I sure wouldn't want you to get all upset.
4th\5th\6th
5th\6th
5th\6th
5th
5th\6th
9th\10th\11th
If, as ecompt asked, we are picked 11th next year and we "achieve" 11th (whether that's with a 3 way tie or whatever) what does that mean.
Now look at the numbers above, whether you use the ones I took from Stat Sheet (you know, the Character revealed LYING numbers who has a long history of trying to lie to their viewers over the years) or using your version, I don't really care.....which one isn't like the others?
Character revealed
So if we tie for 4th (and 5th and 6th) we finish 4th. And if we tie for 9th (and 10th and 11th) we finish 11th. Check.
That bogus. You know it's bogus. And you pulled the same BS in another thread. I refuse to believe you could be that stupid. If I'm giving you too much credit I apologize.
Chico's --- I hate UW like most on here but their expectations should be copied. I realize everyone will say that Bo sucks in NCAA but I am talking whole program. I wish BC was sold out, and every seat filled, night in and night out. I wish Buzz had as few loses at BC this season that Bo has in career at KC.
Why is MU afraid to set the bar higher? You hope to be a bubble team and you become an 11th or 12th place team.
Quote from: mugrad2006 on March 06, 2011, 02:25:15 PM
Why aren't you consistent on the tiebreakers? Why pick us on the bottom of the tiebreaker this year but at the top end for all other years? I'd say it's seeding on the BEast tourney, but in '08 we were a 6 seed.
I used Stat Sheet and simply took the number they finished in the standings.
As stated to Lenny, fine, let's use seedings....which one is not like the other?
4th\5th\6th
5th\6th
5th\6th
5th
5th\6th
9th\10th\11th
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 02:44:15 PM
Oh good Lord. Yes, the Stat Sheet basketball website where I got them was lying....what a tool.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2005-2006
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2006-2007
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2007-2008
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2008-2009
http://statsheet.com/mcb/conferences/big-east?season=2009-2010
Those liars
Statsheet didn't lie. YOU just picked the high tiebreakers in older years and the low tiebreaker this year. Why not just admit that you picked the tiebreakers arbitrarily and it by chance made you look biased instead of playing the spin game you did?
I think that at the end of the day the committee sees we're tied for 9th in the Big East, not the 11 seed in the tourney. That's 1 off the preseason coach's poll. Not as good as we'd like or expect at MU, but about where those that actually coach the teams thought we would.
1999–2000 Michigan State 32–7 13–3 T–1st NCAA Champions
2000–2001 Michigan State 28–5 13–3 T–1st NCAA Final Four
2001–2002 Michigan State 19–12 10–6 5th NCAA 1st Round
2002–2003 Michigan State 22–13 10–6 T–3rd NCAA Elite Eight
2003–2004 Michigan State 18–12 12–4 T–2nd NCAA 1st Round
2004–2005 Michigan State 26–7 13–3 2nd NCAA Final Four
2005–2006 Michigan State 22–12 8–8 T–6th NCAA 1st Round
2006–2007 Michigan State 23–12 8–8 T–7th NCAA 2nd Round
2007–2008 Michigan State 27–9 12–6 4th NCAA Sweet 16
2008–2009 Michigan State 31–7 15–3 1st NCAA Runner-Up
2009–2010 Michigan State 28-9 14-4 T-1st NCAA Final Four
2010–2011 Michigan State 16-11 8-7 6th |
Michigan state won a championship and has been to final four five times over the past 11 seasons. They also finished in the bottom half of the big ten 3 times in that run, and in the bottom third (gasp!) once in that run. Even great programs have down years.
What am I trying to prove with this info? Nothing, really, other than that I can pull out some stats and twist them to fit an agenda.
Quote from: romey on March 06, 2011, 02:25:30 PM
I apologize Ners, but I had pretty much just written the post and when I came back to the thread, I read your post in response to someone who had made a comment with the same basic premise as mine. Before the Cincy game, would any of us honestly have said we would NOT be disappointed if we lost the next three games? And would any of us at that same time not have agreed that we were going to prove the preseason predictions wrong? At the beginning of the season 9-9 didn't look too bad, and was "realistic". Before the UC game, 9-9 looked like a "miss," a disappointing finish.
I'm just a passionate (currently disappointed) lifelong MU fan, and I flew off the handle. I'm not a nut job. ;)
Apology accepted and no worries Romey. I'm a very passionate MU fan as well - and this season has been very frustrating. I acknowledge that. However, taking a broader view - we'll probably make the NCAA tourney and we finished with the same record as two Top 20 teams - Nova and UCONN. The conference was a beast this year. Yes, I thought we'd beat Cincy and Seton Hall - but then you look at both and see that they both BLASTED St. Johns and Georgetown in the last 5 days...and its just the nature of the league. Anyone can beat anyone on any given night - save for DePaul and USF.
Quote from: TJ on March 06, 2011, 02:31:13 PM
The following is obnoxious, and you repeat it over and over and over in different forms.Your gross exaggeration (or "hyperbole") when you get sarcastic is obnoxious. No one besides willie has said a single thing about Big East Titles or Top 4 finishes. People are disappointed that we're not in the top half, that we didn't get to 10 wins, that we blew a TON of games on the way and just one of them would have put us at that level. Yet you continue to falsely exaggerate others' expectations to make it seem like people are upset we didn't beat out PITT for #1. Yes, you're being sarcastic, but sometimes I don't know how close to reality that statement is for you, since you never ever make a post about others' expectations in which you lay them out realistically.
As to this, I simply don't care and most people agree. The fact that other schools have a mediocre season is not an excuse for MU to do the same.
I wonder why you think so poorly of our program, the program you claim to root for, and put it down so often. Is it just to try to make Buzz look better? Having reasonably high expectations (as in finishes in the top half or better than .500) is not a bad thing; I would argue that your expectations are too low given our program's history since joining the Big East. We should try to continue that success, not put it down as "over achievement" and claim that our rightful place is lower than that.
My expectations for the MU program are no greater than what UNC, UCONN, MSU or other elite programs have achieved thelast decade. Some of those schools went to the NIT last year, or might be headed there this year. I'm not going to FREAK out if MU has a slightly down year. If you can't see the perspctive in looking at UCONN and Villanova - both who are ranked in the Top 20 NATIONALLY and see that MU finished with the same conference record as both..and see we are practically a Top 25 team - sorry...but i don't think MU should be flying off the handle at a team that is practically Top 25 natioanlly. I hope MU can become as elite as a UNC, UCONN or MSU - but they really haven't been since the 1970s. We had a flash in the pan in 2003 with a once in a program type of player - D-Wade. Other than that?? 1 Sweet 16 appearance since 1977..I believe.
Quote from: mugrad2006 on March 06, 2011, 03:00:52 PM
Statsheet didn't lie. YOU just picked the high tiebreakers in older years and the low tiebreaker this year. Why not just admit that you picked the tiebreakers arbitrarily and it by chance made you look biased instead of playing the spin game you did?
I think that at the end of the day the committee sees we're tied for 9th in the Big East, not the 11 seed in the tourney. That's 1 off the preseason coach's poll. Not as good as we'd like or expect at MU, but about where those that actually coach the teams thought we would.
No I didn't...the number to the left of those teams showed what place they finished. The number 4 was for fourth place. I disagree with you. In fact, last year Dan Guerrero, the chair of the committee, said that it's more complex than ever because of unbalanced schedules. They don't just look at what "place you finished" because they are not all equal. Is our 9th place finish the same as UCONN and NOVA? Nope, already showed that earlier today. We had easier conference schedules than UCONN and Nova. Unless you don't believe the committee chairman.
I'll ask again, let's use your seeding numbers...which one is not like the others in the past 6 years...it's a simple question really.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 03:17:17 PM
My expectations for the MU program are no greater than what UNC, UCONN, MSU or other elite programs have achieved thelast decade. Some of those schools went to the NIT last year, or might be headed there this year. I'm not going to FREAK out if MU has a slightly down year. If you can't see the perspctive in looking at UCONN and Villanova - both who are ranked in the Top 20 NATIONALLY and see that MU finished with the same conference record as both..and see we are practically a Top 25 team - sorry...but i don't think MU should be flying off the handle at a team that is practically Top 25 natioanlly. I hope MU can become as elite as a UNC, UCONN or MSU - but they really haven't been since the 1970s. We had a flash in the pan in 2003 with a once in a program type of player - D-Wade. Other than that?? 1 Sweet 16 appearance since 1977..I believe.
First, how can you possibly call this team "practically a Top 25 team" with a straight face? Or are you giggling at the keyboard as you type it?
I did talk about your expectations in my "rebuttal" as you termed it, but that was not what was obnoxious about your first post. The obnoxious part is your constant gross exaggeration of the expectations of anyone whose expectations are higher than yours. You do that to try to make them look silly for expecting too much. You do it repeatedly. It's obnoxious. Can you just once admit that the average expectations among the people you seem to despise are actually more like top half than top 2?
Ners you are correct we have not been elite since the 70's, so what? That does not mean that status quo has to be accepted. We are close enough that we see elite programs without straining our eyes. Unfortunately programs in the rearview mirror are closer than we should like. We can stay a middle of the road BE program forever. I would prefer to see a forward moving breakout than all out collapse.
We have facilities like the big boys and spend money like them, so why not get in the same team photo as UNC, Duke and Kansas? If we are not careful we will end being St. Louis or Dayton.
Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 03:26:25 PM
so why not get in the same team photo as UNC, Duke and Kansas? If we are not careful we will end being St. Louis or Dayton.
After reading all the Tokoto posts, I thought the reason we are not Duke or UNC is Milwaukee has bad weather, ugly girls and third world public schools ... just like St. Louis and Dayton.
Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 03:26:25 PM
We have facilities like the big boys and spend money like them, so why not get in the same team photo as UNC, Duke and Kansas? If we are not careful we will end being St. Louis or Dayton.
This is what Ners has a problem with. We should be trying to get into the PITT, SU, GU, UW, etc. team picture before we start worrying about aspiring to be with UNC, Duke, or KU.
I'd take the Pitt, UW,GU and SU team photo.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 03:17:17 PM
My expectations for the MU program are no greater than what UNC, UCONN, MSU or other elite programs have achieved thelast decade. Some of those schools went to the NIT last year, or might be headed there this year. I'm not going to FREAK out if MU has a slightly down year. If you can't see the perspctive in looking at UCONN and Villanova - both who are ranked in the Top 20 NATIONALLY and see that MU finished with the same conference record as both..and see we are practically a Top 25 team - sorry...but i don't think MU should be flying off the handle at a team that is practically Top 25 natioanlly. I hope MU can become as elite as a UNC, UCONN or MSU - but they really haven't been since the 1970s. We had a flash in the pan in 2003 with a once in a program type of player - D-Wade. Other than that?? 1 Sweet 16 appearance since 1977..I believe.
Really...then why did you say with Buzz you thought we would win the Big East and go to
MULTIPLE Final Fours....your expectations sure have changed in the last few months. Weird. What's happened? All those expectations sure have changed in only 4 months...why ners?
In fact, you started a poll saying Buzz will get MU to a Final Four before TC and Bo Ryan (which was weird because TC had already accomplished that feat). http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21634.msg234861#msg234861
Then things like this...the addition of Jamil Wilson "increases the likelihood MU can make a Final Four"
Or this gem..."That said, I see Buzz taking us on a Sweet 16 run this year, possibly
a Final Four run in 2011-2012..and he'll have sent Jimmy Butler and DJO to the NBA at by that time. Vander, Jamail Jones, Jamil Wilson, Reggie Smith, Davante Gardner will be juniors..Erik Williams a senior...and Juan Anderson as sophomore...perhaps that team can make another deep run..
possible Final Four."
"However, if DJO stays for his senior year (which some laugh at the notion that he could be an early entry candidate), and this year's freshman class develops well, add in Jamil Wilson -
we very easily could be a Final Four caliber team."
Weird that you've changed all those expectations...weird.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 03:22:39 PM
No I didn't...the number to the left of those teams showed what place they finished. The number 4 was for fourth place. I disagree with you. In fact, last year Dan Guerrero, the chair of the committee, said that it's more complex than ever because of unbalanced schedules. They don't just look at what "place you finished" because they are not all equal. Is our 9th place finish the same as UCONN and NOVA? Nope, already showed that earlier today. We had easier conference schedules than UCONN and Nova. Unless you don't believe the committee chairman.
I'll ask again, let's use your seeding numbers...which one is not like the others in the past 6 years...it's a simple question really.
Chicos was right in making me correct this, and I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong. Let's just call it like it is, using BEast Tourney seeding
2006 6th
2007 5th
2008 5th
2009 5th
2010 5th
2011 11th
Yes, we're down this year and it 'doesn't look like the others.' BUT, we've happily over achieved relative to consensus expectations in the past few years, and regressed this year.
I've forgotten what point you're trying to prove other than we're not as good this year and a bit of a disappointment. That's definitely true, I thought we'd finish 6th this year. Is it that Buzz is a bad coach? He's got a couple years to prove himself yet. Is it that we're not as good as the Badgers relative to our conference? I'll make the argument that in the '07 - '10 seasons we would have finished in the top 3 of the Big 10.
We've made the tourney six years running, and if we beat Providence we'll make it 7 in a row. Maybe the lower regular season results will light a fire under this team and they make it out of the first weekend this year, maybe not.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 09:31:40 AM
If you want to split the hairs between finishing 8th or 11th we can - as there were several 9-9 teams as you are aware. Considering the mess Buzz Williams walked into at Marquette, due to the shoddy recruiting of Tom Crean after the Big 3, Tom Crean's transfers, as well as the kids who signed with MU, only to leave after the coaching change - MU hit a bump. The fact the performance hasn't dropped off further is a HUGE testament to our head coach.
You can repeat fallacy as many times as you want, it doesn't change the fact within weeks of being named coach, Buzz had 13 of 13 scholarships filled--two of them with future NBA players, four of them making up 40% of our top 10 all-time scorers.
I question your ability to judge Crean's recruiting honestly. James, McNeal, Matthews, Hayward were shoddy? Even Acker and Cubillan demonstrated a high level of performance when they were asked to step up. And let's admit the truth--Christopherson would have added a much-needed outside shooting touch to this year's team and Mbakwe would have provided a strong inside force. Crean's recruiting was hardly shoddy.
You seem to want to give Buzz huge credit for improving the team by landing players like Butler and DJO and Buycks when they replaced the scholarships vacated by Taylor and Nick Williams and Christopherson. But then you turn around blame Crean when Buzz's recruits haven't delivered the expected results.
Quote from: mugrad2006 on March 06, 2011, 03:00:52 PM
Statsheet didn't lie. YOU just picked the high tiebreakers in older years and the low tiebreaker this year. Why not just admit that you picked the tiebreakers arbitrarily and it by chance made you look biased instead of playing the spin game you did?
So what?
I'm not as concerned with Chico's characterization of 9th versus 11th as I am with the fact that we've had five straight years of finishing in no worse than a tie for 5th, now we're tied for 9th.
You're not sugarcoating anything by making a big deal out of the fact that we really finished in a 9th place tie instead of the 11th seed. A tie for 9th isn't something to celebrate.
Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 03:34:01 PM
I'd take the Pitt, UW,GU and SU team photo.
I think we are in the team photo with these schools now (save UW as they are slightly better).
Hypothetical, If I could guarantee you an elite 8 game this year but you have to give me an NIT season next year, would you take that trade? Or would you prefer and NCAA team every year and take your chances in the tourney (which is what we have now)?
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 06, 2011, 03:40:55 PM
You're not sugarcoating anything by making a big deal out of the fact that we really finished in a 9th place tie instead of the 11th seed. A tie for 9th isn't something to celebrate.
Agreed.
I want the same thing UW fans want, goal of conference championship every year. We get wood if we place 4th in BE and complain after NCAA gives lower seed than we think we deserve. I am pretty certain UW fans will not be crying about their seed in a week.
Well all the bad posts about UW on the road are appearing to be correct again, they are not doing well right now at Ohio State.
To me the one thing that is keeping us from being a really good team is a go to guy. Butler tries hard and DJO had five minutes of one game where he was that good. Outside of that, we have nobody that really wants the ball when we really need a basket. We can only hope someone develops that mentality in the off season or next year will not be any better even with the new recruits.
As far as making it out of the 1st weekend in the tourney, I would love making it out of the 1st game.
Quote from: mugrad2006 on March 06, 2011, 03:39:16 PM
I'm not debating which year is not like the others. I'm saying if you take place in conference via records, in the earlier years you gave MU the benefit of the doubt relative to BEast seeding. This year to prove your point you stated MU finished 11th when to stay consistent with previous years you should have placed them 9th. Now, you might have an argument that in previous years MU had the 'best' result relative to SOS their ties in 5th and 6th place, but I'm not gonna go back and do make that argument.
Let's just call it like it is, using BEast Tourney seeding
2006 6th
2007 5th
2008 5th
2009 5th
2010 5th
2011 9th
Ahem...aren't we seeded 11th in 2011....aren't you guilty of exactly what you just said I was guilty of? ;) Now, if Lenny didn't like you, he would call you a liar. I like you, I'll just say it was a mistake on your part.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 03:48:37 PM
Ahem...aren't we seeded 11th in 2011....aren't you guilty of exactly what you just said I was guilty of? ;) Now, if Lenny didn't like you, he would call you a liar. I like you, I'll just say it was a mistake on your part.
Yup, you're correct, I admit it. Now that I think about it, not sure why I'm even arguing this point. Just taking out some frustration at the poor performances in the last two games, it's gotten me a little testy.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 03:48:37 PM
I like you, I'll just say it was a mistake on your part.
That's awfully generous from someone who's never met me and has been trying to destroy you on MU Scoop for the past 3 months.
Quote from: GO MU!! on March 06, 2011, 03:48:04 PM
Well all the bad posts about UW on the road are appearing to be correct again, they are not doing well right now at Ohio State.
Could that have anything to do with who they are playing?
They looked pretty good on the road at the BC in December. They're 7-6 away from the Kohl this year. As a comparison, we are 4-9 away from the BC
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 03:55:22 PM
Could that have anything to do with who they are playing?
They looked pretty good on the road at the BC in December. They're 7-6 away from the Kohl this year. As a comparison, we are 4-9 away from the BC
Definitely has to do with who they are playing. I was just agreeing with the knock I hear from the talking heads on TV and on these blogs that say they can't win big games on the road. I was not cutting them down at all, I have been a fan of UW for a long time, especially their football team. I just happen to love MU basketball more then UW basketball.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 03:55:22 PM
Could that have anything to do with who they are playing?
They looked pretty good on the road at the BC in December. They're 7-6 away from the Kohl this year. As a comparison, we are 4-9 away from the BC
To your point, two of those are neutral court wins, two others are against >100 RPI teams, and their only top 50 RPI road win is actually a neutral court win against BC (RPI 41).
MU's best road win is a true road win against RPI 24 UCONN, and they've had 7 RPI top 50 road games vs. Wisconsin's four (of which UW-Madison lost all 4, they split their two neutral coart top 50 games).
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 11:06:40 AM
No more obnoxious than those who are all up in arms over how bad this team is, that Buzz should be canned, etc.
However, if you would, please do rebut the content of my post and tell me why my "hyperbole" is so far off base and obnoxious, than the reality of a lot of what gets thrown out around here with regard to expectations/overreactions.
Also, I understand that some posters are over the top with their negativity. But personally I don't think the best way to counter that is to go further in the opposite direction.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 06, 2011, 03:42:51 PM
I think we are in the team photo with these schools now (save UW as they are slightly better).
Hypothetical, If I could guarantee you an elite 8 game this year but you have to give me an NIT season next year, would you take that trade? Or would you prefer and NCAA team every year and take your chances in the tourney (which is what we have now)?
What do you mean by in the team photo?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 03:55:22 PM
Could that have anything to do with who they are playing?
They looked pretty good on the road at the BC in December. They're 7-6 away from the Kohl this year. As a comparison, we are 4-9 away from the BC
UW down 21.........
Team photo= programs of similar status. I want the Varsity picture, not the JV.
Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 04:44:29 PM
Team photo= programs of similar status. I want the Varsity picture, not the JV.
Maybe a few years ago we were in the team photo with Syracuse, Pittsburgh, etc....
Quote from: GO MU!! on March 06, 2011, 04:42:42 PM
OUCH down 25
Seriously when was the last time UW gave up 93 points and lost by 30? WOW Ohio St looks good!
Quote from: GO MU!! on March 06, 2011, 04:42:42 PM
OUCH down 25
Yup, OSU is good...undefeated at home this year. Only lost two games...to Wisconsin and Purdue.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 06, 2011, 03:40:55 PM
I'm not as concerned with Chico's characterization of 9th versus 11th as I am with the fact that we've had five straight years of finishing in no worse than a tie for 5th, now we're tied for 9th.
You're not sugarcoating anything by making a big deal out of the fact that we really finished in a 9th place tie instead of the 11th seed. A tie for 9th isn't something to celebrate.
Believe me, I'm not celebrating our tie for ninth either. I'm just pointing out an obvious bit of hypocrisy on Chico's part. If that doesn't concern you I can't say I'm surprised.
Quote from: GO MU!! on March 06, 2011, 05:00:16 PM
Seriously when was the last time UW gave up 93 points and lost by 30? WOW Ohio St looks good!
They ran a graphic at the end of the game .... Feb 2006 against AZ, over 5 years.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 03:36:57 PM
Really...then why did you say with Buzz you thought we would win the Big East and go to MULTIPLE Final Fours....your expectations sure have changed in the last few months. Weird. What's happened? All those expectations sure have changed in only 4 months...why ners?
In fact, you started a poll saying Buzz will get MU to a Final Four before TC and Bo Ryan (which was weird because TC had already accomplished that feat). http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21634.msg234861#msg234861
Then things like this...the addition of Jamil Wilson "increases the likelihood MU can make a Final Four"
Or this gem..."That said, I see Buzz taking us on a Sweet 16 run this year, possibly a Final Four run in 2011-2012..and he'll have sent Jimmy Butler and DJO to the NBA at by that time. Vander, Jamail Jones, Jamil Wilson, Reggie Smith, Davante Gardner will be juniors..Erik Williams a senior...and Juan Anderson as sophomore...perhaps that team can make another deep run..possible Final Four."
"However, if DJO stays for his senior year (which some laugh at the notion that he could be an early entry candidate), and this year's freshman class develops well, add in Jamil Wilson - we very easily could be a Final Four caliber team."
Weird that you've changed all those expectations...weird.
This is pretty much psychotic...to reach back into the archive and extract these quotes. But..i'll stand by them. This year's team could potentially go to the Sweet 16 - season isn't over yet. Next year's team could be better than this year's team. We know CREAN is light years away from going to a Final Four - and duh..I'm aware TC went to a Final Four with D-Wade..point was present day forward. Bo Ryan? Got a chance this year..but we'll see.
I will say DJO's performance this year was a big surprise/disappointment. I still think Buzz can take us to the upper reaches of the Big East..but am not freaking outover this seasons results as are some..as you like to say..give a guy 5 years before judging. Should be an interesting team in that 5th year with Otule a Senior, Gardner a junior, Wilson a Senio, Cadougan a senior, Vander a JR, Jamil Jones a JR, Erik Williams a SR and Juan Anderson a Sophomore...
Ners---Just curious on what your overall appraisal of the program is? On some posts we are FF bound and some posts we are doomed to 9th in BE because of 100 excuses. Are we a work in progress under Buzz or is next year the finished product we will get?
Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 06:27:21 PM
Ners---Just curious on what your overall appraisal of the program is? On some posts we are FF bound and some posts we are doomed to 9th in BE because of 100 excuses. Are we a work in progress under Buzz or is next year the finished product we will get?
I'm by no means saying MU is "doomed" to a 9th place finish in the Big East year in year out. But, when you are tied with two teams who are also 9-9 that are ranked in the National Top 25 - well...I just don't see that we need to be freaking the hell out - as you, TJ and several others are.
Saragin and Pomroy have us in the Top 35. Personally, if MU makes the NCAA tourney every year, hits an occasional Sweet 16 every 5 years, maybe 1 Elite 8 per decade - I'm pretty happy. I very much do like what the MU team will look like in 2012-2013 season and remain optimistic for next year's team. But looking at Year 5 under Buzz the team will feature: Wilson, Otule, Erik Williams, Cadougan as seniors. Vander, Jamil Jones, Gardner as juniors. Juan Anderson, Derrick Wilson, and 2 others TBD as sophomores (or possibly jr/sr if JUCOs).
Ners---Thanks for reply. I would be more excited being tied with two top 25 teams if I thought we were on the verge of something good. Feels like the wheels are falling off everyone's wagon this season.
Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 06:27:21 PMNers---Just curious on what your overall appraisal of the program is? On some posts we are FF bound and some posts we are doomed to 9th in BE because of 100 excuses. Are we a work in progress under Buzz or is next year the finished product we will get?
One thing I've found with Buzz is that we seem to be far too kneejerk of a community. Every loss is amplified into a need for change while every win is an endorsement of Buzz for life. It's almost surreal how crazy we can get, and I'll admit to sometimes being a part of that :-[
Personally, I think it's too early to really give an overall appraisal of the program under Buzz. He inherited a great class, but had two empty recruiting classes after that. This year, the only scholarship players we graduated were Buzz's three JUCOs. Next year it will be DJO and Crowder, two more JUCO additions. I think that it will be safe to start making a judgment once Buzz has his second "true" senior class. Once the current freshmen are seniors, it should be a fair time to make an assessment. Though the year before that will probably give us a lot of indicators of where we're at. How will we do with Cadougan, Otule, and Williams as seniors and Vander, Wilson, Gardner, and Jones as juniors? But even if that isn't quite up to snuff, I say Buzz deserves at least one more year. Add Anderson, Derrick Wilson, and whomever else he is able to sign this year (Mayo?) as juniors and we'll see where we're at. If we've fallen out of the NCAA picture by then and aren't able to regularly win 11+ games in the Big East, I will be pretty disappointed.
My hopes for Buzz are average finishes of 5th-7th in the Big East, but I can accept the occasional 9th or lower as long as it's offset by the occasional top 4. In the tournament, I feel that the Sweet 16 should be a realistic goal every year once his classes develop into seniors. We don't have to make it every year, but I do think we should be good enough to feel disappointed when we don't, and not surprised when we overachieve our way into an Elite 8 or Final Four. I'm not saying I expect us to be a perennial top 5-10 team, but I would like us to be a perennial top 15-25 team. If Buzz can get us there by the time VB is a senior, I'll be pleased. And if he can keep that up I don't see any reason why we wouldn't want to keep him as long as he'll stay.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 06, 2011, 05:30:16 PM
Believe me, I'm not celebrating our tie for ninth either. I'm just pointing out an obvious bit of hypocrisy on Chico's part. If that doesn't concern you I can't say I'm surprised.
Fine--we can be concerned about different things.
You're more concerned about what Chicos says. I'm more concerned about Marquette's performance.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 06:34:40 PM
I'm by no means saying MU is "doomed" to a 9th place finish in the Big East year in year out. But, when you are tied with two teams who are also 9-9 that are ranked in the National Top 25 - well...I just don't see that we need to be freaking the hell out - as you, TJ and several others are.
Saragin and Pomroy have us in the Top 35. Personally, if MU makes the NCAA tourney every year, hits an occasional Sweet 16 every 5 years, maybe 1 Elite 8 per decade - I'm pretty happy. I very much do like what the MU team will look like in 2012-2013 season and remain optimistic for next year's team. But looking at Year 5 under Buzz the team will feature: Wilson, Otule, Erik Williams, Cadougan as seniors. Vander, Jamil Jones, Gardner as juniors. Juan Anderson, Derrick Wilson, and 2 others TBD as sophomores (or possibly jr/sr if JUCOs).
I haven't posted anything remotely close to freaking out since before Cincy - I've realized that this team is just going to be whatever it is, and set us up for constant disappointment.
What I have posted about is to to call you out for your repeated mis-characterization of those you disagree with (hyperbole), and you have apparently taken that to be "freaking the hell out". I think you are just as over the top as the people you call out, and I felt a desire to point it out. Or do you really think that people were expecting a BE Title this year - which is what you started this thread with?
I did think it was comical to see your predictions before the season compared to what you claim expectations for the season were now. Or were you predicting 9-9 in conference and a Sweet 16 appearance?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 06, 2011, 05:39:35 PM
They ran a graphic at the end of the game .... Feb 2006 against AZ, over 5 years.
Thanks for the info!
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 06, 2011, 06:51:31 PM
Fine--we can be concerned about different things.
You're more concerned about what Chicos says. I'm more concerned about Marquette's performance.
Seems you are also concerned with what Lenny's says. BTW, how have you had a chance to talk with Tom Crean and ask him if he is at all concerned with IU's 3-15 finish in the Big 10 and second straight season of losing their last 8+ games?? Talk about a progarm with some performance issues. WOW!
Quote from: TJ on March 06, 2011, 07:10:58 PM
I haven't posted anything remotely close to freaking out since before Cincy - I've realized that this team is just going to be whatever it is, and set us up for constant disappointment.
What I have posted about is to to call you out for your repeated mis-characterization of those you disagree with (hyperbole), and you have apparently taken that to be "freaking the hell out". I think you are just as over the top as the people you call out, and I felt a desire to point it out. Or do you really think that people were expecting a BE Title this year - which is what you started this thread with?
I did think it was comical to see your predictions before the season compared to what you claim expectations for the season were now. Or were you predicting 9-9 in conference and a Sweet 16 appearance?
I was off in my pre-season pick -went with an optimistic 12-6. According to you, considering we just lost 2 games against inferior teams - that we should of beat.. we would have finished 11-7. Here's the real point -this season isn't over!! That's my point all along. We still probably get in the NCAA. Maybe we do still make the Sweet 16 this year. The Big East rated the hardest conference this year - which wasn't expected. Hell when the "11th" place Big East team can take Wisco, Duke and Vandy to all within 5 - who all finished 2 or 3 in their respective conferences...just saying we might have a chance yet to win a game or two in the NCAA..
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 07:16:57 PM
I was off in my pre-season pick -went with an optimistic 12-6. According to you, considering we just lost 2 games against inferior teams - that we should of beat.. we would have finished 11-7. Here's the real point -this season isn't over!! That's my point all along. We still probably get in the NCAA. Maybe we do still make the Sweet 16 this year. The Big East rated the hardest conference this year - which wasn't expected. Hell when the "11th" place Big East team can take Wisco, Duke and Vandy to all within 5 - who all finished 2 or 3 in their respective conferences...just saying we might have a chance yet to win a game or two in the NCAA..
But.. since you think all emotions should be based on preseason expectations how could you be so calm since we missed yours by 3 games???
That's why we should all be calm, right? Because "experts" predicted we would be where we are. It doesn't matter that we've seen the games and seen the blown leads and seen the regression... we should be fine because expectations had us right where we are at.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 07:13:25 PM
Seems you are also concerned with what Lenny's says. BTW, how have you had a chance to talk with Tom Crean and ask him if he is at all concerned with IU's 3-15 finish in the Big 10 and second straight season of losing their last 8+ games?? Talk about a progarm with some performance issues. WOW!
I don't care what Crean does at
Indiana. I do care if Buzz matches what Crean previously did at
Marquette. This year, Buzz simply didn't get it done.
The fact of the matter is that we have just finished our worst performance since joining the Big East. After five straight years finishing no worse than a tie for fifth, this year we finished in a tie for 9th.
You seem to be consoled by the fact that we outperformed Indiana this year.
I'm sorry but I just don't find any reason for celebration in that.
I love everyone proclaiming that Buzz already failed this season. Last time I checked the season isn't over. Can we save these proclamations of over/underachievement for when the post-season ends and the results that matter are posted? Thanks in advance!
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 06, 2011, 06:51:31 PM
Fine--we can be concerned about different things.
You're more concerned about what Chicos says. I'm more concerned about Marquette's performance.
Of course I never said that I was more concerned about about Chico's hypocisy than I am about MU's performance. Since I can walk and chew gum at the same time I'm able to address both. Sorry you can't.
Quote from: Jamailman on March 06, 2011, 08:00:21 PM
I love everyone proclaiming that Buzz already failed this season. Last time I checked the season isn't over. Can we save these proclamations of over/underachievement for when the post-season ends and the results that matter are posted? Thanks in advance!
Amen
Quote from: TJ on March 06, 2011, 07:22:19 PM
But.. since you think all emotions should be based on preseason expectations how could you be so calm since we missed yours by 3 games???
That's why we should all be calm, right? Because "experts" predicted we would be where we are. It doesn't matter that we've seen the games and seen the blown leads and seen the regression... we should be fine because expectations had us right where we are at.
TJ - Let's call it quits on this - You are trying to make something of nothing. I never said I thought all emotions should be based on preseason expectations?? Let it go. My point is the season isn't over. Period. The way SOME people go from high to low from a win over a Syracuse or UCONN on the road, to a loss to Cincy at home or Seton Hall on the road, or DePaul last year is ridiculous.
Another thing - teams lose leads in basketball games. It happens. USF lost a 15 point 2nd half lead to MU. Lville just lost a 6 point lead with under 20 seconds in regulation to WV and lost yesterday. Why get all up in arms over this stuff??
I agree with you that MU has not looked good these last 2 games...and probably isn't peaking at the right time of year..and yes..I have concerns about how they will perform in the tourney....but big picture wise - UNC missed the damn NCAA last year, UCONN did too, MSU might this year...why do we as a fanbase have to bash the helll out of our coaches and team for having a tough season...a season that is not yet over?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 06, 2011, 08:13:07 PM
Of course I never said that I was more concerned about about Chico's hypocisy than I am about MU's performance. Since I can walk and chew gum at the same time I'm able to address both.
First, you didn't address both.
Second, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that you were more concerned about what you didn't comment on (MU's 9th place Big East finish--our worst) than about than what you did comment about (Chico's referring to it as 11th place)
Let's go back and look at your first post in the thread:
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 06, 2011, 09:50:49 AM
Chicos "facts" Actual Facts
2006 4th - tied for 4th, 5th and 6th
2007 5th tied for 5th and 6th
2008 5th - tied for 5th and 6th
2009 5th - 5th
2010 5th - tied for 5th and 6th
2011 11th - tied for 9th, 10th and 11th
Don't you ever get tired of this BS? How can you do crap like this and say with a straight face you don't have an agenda?
Nothing about our performance.
Sure looks to me like your concern is that Chicos referred to it as 11th place.
Again, so what? A 9th place tie is not something to celebrate.
Sorry--there's no sugarcoating a 9th place finish.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 08:20:29 PM
TJ - Let's call it quits on this - You are trying to make something of nothing. I never said I thought all emotions should be based on preseason expectations?? Let it go. My point is the season isn't over. Period. The way SOME people go from high to low from a win over a Syracuse or UCONN on the road, to a loss to Cincy at home or Seton Hall on the road, or DePaul last year is ridiculous.
Fine with me, all I really want is for you to stop over-dramatizing every opinion more negative than your own. I'm certainly guilty of what you're talking about here, I'll admit. I'm trying not to post as much or as negatively after losses/bad performances, but there's nothing I can do about others. This season has just been unique in that there haven't been many great successes to offset the lows. ND is about it. We blew a big lead against SU, we shouldn't have been in the USF situation, etc. - every other "success" had some type of asterisk next to it. And there just wasn't enough of them to offset all the bad. You may not believe it, but I have trying to take some of your advice and smooth it out a bit more for myself. I stayed upset for only like 20 minutes after Seton Hall. Might have helped that I missed the first half hour.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 08:20:29 PM
Another thing - teams lose leads in basketball games. It happens. USF lost a 15 point 2nd half lead to MU. Lville just lost a 6 point lead with under 20 seconds in regulation to WV and lost yesterday. Why get all up in arms over this stuff??
I don't know how to answer this, except to say that if I didn't get annoyed by a blown lead I don't think I would have enough personal investment in the game to watch at all. At least with regularity.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 08:20:29 PM
I agree with you that MU has not looked good these last 2 games...and probably isn't peaking at the right time of year..and yes..I have concerns about how they will perform in the tourney....but big picture wise - UNC missed the damn NCAA last year, UCONN did too, MSU might this year...why do we as a fanbase have to bash the helll out of our coaches and team for having a tough season...a season that is not yet over?
Pretty much same answer as above. The large personal investment we have in the game/team is the reason we discuss them, and if it's bad we discuss the bad. Sometimes in the heat of the moment it gets worse than maybe it should I guess.
I do try not to bash individual players too much; I agree with you that we should limit that as much as possible. I feel like the coaches should be a little less protected, as they're adults and paid for their position.
Quote from: TJ on March 06, 2011, 08:59:00 PM
Fine with me, all I really want is for you to stop over-dramatizing every opinion more negative than your own. I'm certainly guilty of what you're talking about here, I'll admit. I'm trying not to post as much or as negatively after losses/bad performances, but there's nothing I can do about others. This season has just been unique in that there haven't been many great successes to offset the lows. ND is about it. We blew a big lead against SU, we shouldn't have been in the USF situation, etc. - every other "success" had some type of asterisk next to it. And there just wasn't enough of them to offset all the bad. You may not believe it, but I have trying to take some of your advice and smooth it out a bit more for myself. I stayed upset for only like 20 minutes after Seton Hall. Might have helped that I missed the first half hour.
I don't know how to answer this, except to say that if I didn't get annoyed by a blown lead I don't think I would have enough personal investment in the game to watch at all. At least with regularity.
Pretty much same answer as above. The large personal investment we have in the game/team is the reason we discuss them, and if it's bad we discuss the bad. Sometimes in the heat of the moment it gets worse than maybe it should I guess.
I do try not to bash individual players too much; I agree with you that we should limit that as much as possible. I feel like the coaches should be a little less protected, as they're adults and paid for their position.
Good points...and I do see your point about coaches being more eligible targets than the players..as they are adults and are paid a lot of money. In all seriousness, I used to get super HOT during games....to the point of throwing things in my house...it was really pretty ridiculous...but for some reason, this year in particular...other than Lville..I haven't flown off the handle as much. My personal opinion is that the kids and coaching staff are trying their damndest to win..perhaps both are trying too hard..as crazy as that sounds..sometimes itcan lead to being/playing tight. The best thing for this team might ery well be a break from practice between now and the Big East tourney..and perhaps some more time off before the NCAA. They need to get refreshed/and some time away would help.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 05:48:55 PM
This is pretty much psychotic...to reach back into the archive and extract these quotes. But..i'll stand by them. This year's team could potentially go to the Sweet 16 - season isn't over yet. Next year's team could be better than this year's team. We know CREAN is light years away from going to a Final Four - and duh..I'm aware TC went to a Final Four with D-Wade..point was present day forward. Bo Ryan? Got a chance this year..but we'll see.
I will say DJO's performance this year was a big surprise/disappointment. I still think Buzz can take us to the upper reaches of the Big East..but am not freaking outover this seasons results as are some..as you like to say..give a guy 5 years before judging. Should be an interesting team in that 5th year with Otule a Senior, Gardner a junior, Wilson a Senio, Cadougan a senior, Vander a JR, Jamil Jones a JR, Erik Williams a SR and Juan Anderson a Sophomore...
Was it psychotic when you did it to me, and other posters here in the last few months? LOL...no no, not psychotic then, only now. LOL. What a gem you are. As far as reaching back into the archive, it was October and November of THIS SEASON for some of those gems.
Who cares what TC is doing at IU...you said Buzz was a better coach HERE, at MARQUETTE. Yet here we are in 9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history. I hope you are right about Buzz's greatness and the upcoming Final Fours (multiple trips). It was just so weird to see you cool on him the last few days, I was hoping you weren't feeling ill or something. Going from multiple Final Fours to saying we should all be satisfied with an 11 seed and 9th place finishes because UCONN and Nova finished with the same record is so...so...so not endearing any confidence of man crush love, quite frankly.
Yes, I concur the season is not over and depending on the draw, we could get to the Sweet 16...and rest assured you will be on that mountain top telling us how great things are...and if we lose and don't go there....rest assured you'll also tell us to be damn happy with what we have and be proud of that 11 seed. It's wonderful for you, either outcome you get to have it your way.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 09:46:11 PM
Was it psychotic when you did it to me, and other posters here in the last few months? LOL...no no, not psychotic then, only now. LOL. What a gem you are. As far as reaching back into the archive, it was October and November of THIS SEASON for some of those gems.
Who cares what TC is doing at IU...you said Buzz was a better coach HERE, at MARQUETTE. Yet here we are in 9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history. I hope you are right about Buzz's greatness and the upcoming Final Fours (multiple trips). It was just so weird to see you cool on him the last few days, I was hoping you weren't feeling ill or something. Going from multiple Final Fours to saying we should all be satisfied with an 11 seed and 9th place finishes because UCONN and Nova finished with the same record is so...so...so not endearing any confidence of man crush love, quite frankly.
Yes, I concur the season is not over and depending on the draw, we could get to the Sweet 16...and rest assured you will be on that mountain top telling us how great things are...and if we lose and don't go there....rest assured you'll also tell us to be damn happy with what we have and be proud of that 11 seed. It's wonderful for you, either we you get to have it your way.
I said I believe Buzz will be a better coach here at MU. Again..give him 9 years and lets see where its at..And no..by no means am I cooling on Buzz - still think he's agreat coach for MU. To have no hiccup after the Crean departure, the transfers, and the Taylors and Nick Williams not honoring their LOI's is really pretty awesome. This is all I preach..a little perspective and patience.
It is funny how you keep saying 11th place finish with regard to this years team..yet as Lenny pointed out in other threads..you referred to the 2005 team which finished tied for 5th as a 5th place team...and not a 7th place team. Why?? Same thing took place with the 2006 team. A real gem you are indeed.
Thankfully, I don't have to be a fan of IU, as do you...that must be nasueating having to watch the 2nd straight last place finish in the Big 10..with the season ending on an 8 game losing streak. But hey...its all okay at IU..because for 1 year they had to limit recruiting phone calls and had to take away 1 scholarship for 1 year.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 09:55:19 PM
I said I believe Buzz will be a better coach here at MU. Again..give him 9 years and lets see where its at..And no..by no means am I cooling on Buzz - still think he's agreat coach for MU. To have no hiccup after the Crean departure, the transfers, and the Taylors and Nick Williams not honoring their LOI's is really pretty awesome. This is all I preach..a little perspective and patience.
I'd say finishing 4 places lower than our previous low-water mark in the Big East would be considered by most to be a hiccup.
And as you usually do, you overstate the shakeup to the roster. Buzz had only two roster openings to fill, which were both filled within weeks of his promotion. Did you forget about Butler and McMorrow? 13 of 13 scholarships were filled.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 07, 2011, 07:29:42 AM
I'd say finishing 4 places lower than our previous low-water mark in the Big East would be considered by most to be a hiccup.
And as you usually do, you overstate the shakeup to the roster. Buzz had only two roster openings to fill, which were both filled within weeks of his promotion. Did you forget about Butler and McMorrow? 13 of 13 scholarships were filled.
Give it a rest 84. You have a long post history/legacy of pro-Crean, anti Buzz. Call this year a hiccup if you want..but at least it isn't a complete disaster with a last place finish and 3 conference wins.
You continue to understate the roster shakeup that Buzz dealt with upon arrival - yet excuse it for Crean at Indiana (or at least Chicos does). It is not uncommon during a coaching change for players recruited by the previous coach to want to transfer, nor is it uncommon to have LOI's broken. Buzz dealt with both - Mbawke, Christo, Taylor, Williams, Hazel (was basically kicked out of MU).
To me that is 5 players that would all be 3 or 4 year program guys at this point, that had to be replaced..and rapidly. To do so, while also dealing with the graduation of 3 of the program's Top 10 scorers of all time after your first year...and never miss an NCAA...say that is pretty darn good. Give the guy some credit..as much as it may pain you.
Bottom line is we are going to finish the regular season with 14 losses.
I couldn't care less if they were good losses, bad losses, almost wins - whatever you want to call them.
It also doesn't really make any difference whether the 14 losses were due to poor coaching, poor players, too many or too few 'switchables', transfers, "Buzz cuts", something that Chico said, something that Ners responded, bad luck, bad refs, lack of student support or the new scoreboard.
We still will have 14 losses - - and that's dissappointing. Regardless of whether you expected more or less, you can't be happy with 14 losses.
Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
You continue to understate the roster shakeup that Buzz dealt with upon arrival - yet excuse it for Crean at Indiana (or at least Chicos does).
Are you really comparing the roster situations at the two school as if they were the same? Are you telling me MU was at risk of probation? Really? Wow.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 03:56:07 PM
Are you really comparing the roster situations at the two school as if they were the same? Are you telling me MU was at risk of probation? Really? Wow.
What I'm saying is after year 1 at each school - Buzz at MU and Crean at IU (at which point everyone knew there was no post season ban..and even for spring recruiting in 2009 - which could help influence 2009-2010 season results) - the situations were not that different.
Buzz got Jimmy in Spring of 2008, DJO in Spring of 2009 and Crowder in Spring of 2010. However you want to slice it....the disparity between finishing 3-15 in conference vs 9-9 is much greater than was the disparity of what both teams had entering the 2009 season. Fact is Crean can't recruit JUCO's and get guys who are ready to play/contribute right away. All of his JUCO's have been flops - which come to think of it - I'm now not surprised as to why you are so negative on JUCOs.
Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 09:55:19 PM
I said I believe Buzz will be a better coach here at MU. Again..give him 9 years and lets see where its at..And no..by no means am I cooling on Buzz - still think he's agreat coach for MU. To have no hiccup after the Crean departure, the transfers, and the Taylors and Nick Williams not honoring their LOI's is really pretty awesome. This is all I preach..a little perspective and patience.
It is funny how you keep saying 11th place finish with regard to this years team..yet as Lenny pointed out in other threads..you referred to the 2005 team which finished tied for 5th as a 5th place team...and not a 7th place team. Why?? Same thing took place with the 2006 team. A real gem you are indeed.
You might want to read again your very post...I said 9th place finish and 11th seed....you even QUOTED it ("Yet here we are in
9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history.") but still put out the faulty info anyway. Good God. Moronic...congratulations, you've outdone yourself.
You're right, transfers suck as do kids backing out of their NLIs....funny how you take such a different viewpoint of that when it involves another coach.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 07:55:29 PM
You might want to read again your very post...I said 9th place finish and 11th seed....you even QUOTED it ("Yet here we are in 9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history.") but still put out the faulty info anyway. Good God. Moronic...congratulations, you've outdone yourself.
You're right, transfers suck as do kids backing out of their NLIs....funny how you take such a different viewpoint of that when it involves another coach.
Newsflash - I'm fully aware you can go back and edit posts one makes on here. We both know, plus Lenny's and a few others who saw the thread how you referred to this year's MU as the 11th place team (not the 9th place team and 11th seed.) The fact you go back and edit it to cover your ass is all the more comical and evidence of your douchery. You are a real piece of work. What's it like living a lie??
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 07:55:29 PM
You might want to read again your very post...I said 9th place finish and 11th seed....you even QUOTED it ("Yet here we are in 9th place and an 11 seed....the worst performance in the Big East in our history.") but still put out the faulty info anyway. Good God. Moronic...congratulations, you've outdone yourself.
You're right, transfers suck as do kids backing out of their NLIs....funny how you take such a different viewpoint of that when it involves another coach.
This one?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 01:19:17 AM
When you finish in the Big East
2006 4th
2007 5th
2008 5th
2009 5th
2010 5th
2011 11th....well, let's just say Mu has proven the previous 5 years what its capable of. I guess we shouldn't aspire to those silly expectations....
What's ironic as hell is your posts the last two years saying we were on our way to Final Fours, Big East titles, etc...you got us all fired up ners and now you're backing down. Why?
This one?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 02:17:10 PM
Great question...especially after finishing 4th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 5th and now 11th.
Not sure where I'm seeing an 11 seed?? Seem you keep stating 11th place..yet in the 2005 2006 years when we tied for 4th and t5th..it was that we finished in 4th and 5th..not 6th and 7th as could be said. Why??
This one sweetheart
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25164.msg281100#msg281100
Your post, you quoted me...right there in the quote...do you knot even read what you're quoting?
Like I said, you've outdone yourself..congratulations.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 08:21:40 PM
This one sweetheart
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=25164.msg281100#msg281100
Your post, you quoted me...right there in the quote...do you knot even read what you're quoting?
Like I said, you've outdone yourself..congratulations.
Hey weirdo - enough with the sweetheart talk..or is that another lie you are living? Pretending to be straight? You may notice in your quote that you've "quoted" you it was March 6th at 9:46pm...yet the ones offered originally (until Lenny pointed out how you downgraded this year's teams tie to the lowest finish, yet upgraded Tom Crean team's ties to the "top place" tie finish), all occurred before March 6, 9:48pm. So after getting called on it by Lenny..you then properly begin to refer to it as 9th place finish/11th seed.
Quote from: leever on March 07, 2011, 03:07:56 PMBottom line is we are going to finish the regular season with 14 losses.
I couldn't care less if they were good losses, bad losses, almost wins - whatever you want to call them.
It also doesn't really make any difference whether the 14 losses were due to poor coaching, poor players, too many or too few 'switchables', transfers, "Buzz cuts", something that Chico said, something that Ners responded, bad luck, bad refs, lack of student support or the new scoreboard.
We still will have 14 losses - - and that's dissappointing. Regardless of whether you expected more or less, you can't be happy with 14 losses.
Well, we only have one loss to teams outside the NCAA field. That's fewer than UNC, Florida, or Brigham Young. Our loss total is high, but it's largely a product of playing a ridiculous number of high-quality opponents. I'd rather see us with fewer than 10 losses, but if you're going to have losses, it's better to have them against teams that are legitimately good.
Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
Give it a rest 84. You have a long post history/legacy of pro-Crean, anti Buzz. Call this year a hiccup if you want..but at least it isn't a complete disaster with a last place finish and 3 conference wins.
As I've said many times, I think Buzz did a tremendous job to keep the team performing at the level we were at from 2006 to 2008.
But he hasn't demonstrated that he's raised our performance--as witnessed by 5th, 5th and 9th place finishes.
Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
You continue to understate the roster shakeup that Buzz dealt with upon arrival -
How am I understating it?
This is my frustration with you--I give you facts, you respond with accusations of being anti-Buzz, but you can't ever provide any counter argument.
Did Crean cause McMorrow's health issue? No? Then why is the fact that we don't have McMorrow blamed on Crean?
I know exactly what your explantion is: because McMorrow replaced Scott Chirstopherson's scholarship, you consider it a "free play" for Buzz. Had McMorrow been a star, Buzz gets hailed as an outstanding recruiter. But since McMorrow was a bust, we can go back and blame Crean for somehow causing Christopherson to leave.
In fact, even when we DID fill the slot (e.g. with Butler), you STILL blame Crean for the very same vacancy that Butler filled. Neat, isn't it? Had Nick WIlliams not left, Buzz never would have been able to sign Butler. But even replacing Nick WIlliams with Butler, Crean is blamed for a vacancy.
Did Crean cause Buzz to sign Roseboro and later kick him off?
Did he come back and make Hazel offend people to the point he got kicked off the team?
Did he cause Maymon's father to intervene to the point that Buzz had to kick Jeronne off the team?
Did he cause Mbakwe to decide at the end of summer that he wanted to leave?
Did he cause Smith to leave? Newbill?
Here's my view: When a coach takes over, he owns the team. You don't get to blame the other guy once you fill the slots with your own players.
Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
yet excuse it for Crean at Indiana (or at least Chicos does).
No. I don't really care about what is going on at Indiana. I don't think their struggles is a good excuse here.
I'm not happy with 9th place finish just because Indiana is worse.
Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
It is not uncommon during a coaching change for players recruited by the previous coach to want to transfer, nor is it uncommon to have LOI's broken. Buzz dealt with both - Mbawke, Christo, Taylor, Williams, Hazel (was basically kicked out of MU).
Actually, I think it is uncommon, and represents one of my biggest disappointments with Buzz.
I've already given you the analysis of both the O'Neill to Deane and Deane to Crean transitions--one player left during each transition. With Crean to Buzz, we've had five such departures.
Find me an assistant promoted to head coach who saw five of his recruits/players leave. You're saying is not uncommon. Fine. Back it up. Should be easy given that you claim its not uncommon. Give me examples.
Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
To me that is 5 players that would all be 3 or 4 year program guys at this point, that had to be replaced..and rapidly.
Once again, there weren't 5 players that had to be replaced rapidly--there were only 2. You're counting players like Pat Hazel, who was on the team for an entire year after Buzz was head coach as a departure that is blamed on Crean. Or Trevor Mbakwe--who decided to leave only after an entire summer with Buzz.
I don't think you've even acknowledged fundamental facts--like that that we were oversigned by 1 on the day Crean left? The first departure didn't have to be replaced--in fact couldn't be replaced. Do you honestly feel its "anti-Buzz" to point this out?
Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
To do so, while also dealing with the graduation of 3 of the program's Top 10 scorers of all time after your first year...and never miss an NCAA...say that is pretty darn good.
Wow, what a revelation. Good players graduate. Who knew?
Guess what? Good players have left Uconn, West Virginia, Villanova, Louisville, Pitt--and they were replaced with other good players.
Jay Wright didn't run around complaining that he had to sign a slew of JUCOs or blame Steve Lappas when he was hired--he went out and recruited Frasor, Ray, Foye, Sumpter, and Claxton. All frosh. All in the same class. And when those players left, he didn't whine about losing so many good players--he reloaded with scottie reynolds, Corey Fisher, Corey Stokes, Antonio Pena.
THATs what I want the MU coach to do. Not pussyfoot around trying to determine whether we have balanced classes, or JUCOs or transfers, or blaming a guy no longer here. Go out and get the best players you can--and stand on your own record.
Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 11:09:22 AM
Give the guy some credit..as much as it may pain you.
I have given him credit--i have quite often complemented Buzz for continuing our 5th place finishes in 2009 and 2010. I said it was a major accomplishment to keep us at that level.
I've also said that when Buzz's offense works, it works very very well, and is extremely entertaining.
I also think Buzz has made mistakes. I think we over rely on JUCOs and have wasted scholarships trying to "balance" classes that don't have to be balanced. I'm disappointed that we cant' seem to get frosh engaged early in their career. I think he royally screwed up with Newbill on two levels--missing out on his talent, and running him off the team.
84...well done. Facts, logic, the whole ball of wax...itemized as well.
Now be prepared to be attacked, called Joanie, not have your points rebutted but just blanket attacked.
84 - Your previous post, though very long, is reasonable and I won't disagree with the entirety of what you wrote. I will say, however, where you point to Jay Wright's situation and how he's reloaded so effectively - yet in Jay Wright's 10th year he's 9-9 in conference? Same as MU?
Also, Buzz doesn't make excuses about the situation he came into - actually compliments the program and job Tom Crean did - so not sure why you feel he makes excuses, etc? Those of us who are fans, such as myself, will point out some of the challenges he faced.
In the words of the immortal Chicos, we can give it 5 years. I have a feeling by Buzz's 5th year - when he'll have 7, three and four year program guys - Otule, Cadougan, Wilson, Williams, Gardner, Blue, Jones - we'll be okay. On this year's team we have 2, 3-year guys (Jimmy and Joe), and 2, 2-year guys (Buycks and DJO). That is a pretty significant reduction of experience - when measured against where we'll be in Year 5.
Why get all up in arms about this seasons performance, when our conference record mirrors legendary coaches and programs - Calhoun and Wright/UCONN/NOVA - both of whom are Top 25 ranked this year??