There's no denying the fact or defending what we've seen in the last few games. Just awful, clueless, gutless basketball.
We ARE and will continue to be the worst coached team in the Big East. There are teams with less talent behind us in the standings. But given our players, they would also display higher basketball IQ and more hustle than us.
This is also the worst defensive squad seen at Marquette since at least Mike Deane's last couple of teams — or since Dukiet's era at the very least. The proud, tough defensive identity of Marquette basketball built by O'Neill and Crean has been so totally wiped out by this current rube's "paint touches, free throws, just outscore them" idiocy that I'm left dreaming of the day when this Three Stooges reject from Texas takes his sweet tea and barnyard wisdom on to his next victim.
Get upset and sanctimonious, if you choose. Drink the blue and gold kool-aid and pretend the future is bright. But the Buzz honeymoon is over regardless of how this season progresses. Local media is onto him, and so are fans who've been around long enough to know better. The calls for new leadership will begin now with whispers and build consistently now that Crean's properly developed players are gone.
I'll stay a fan and await the inevitable. There will come a new day of proper, well-developed Marquette recruits from major high schools instead of a mishmash of kids not talented or not bright enough to play at a major program out of high school. There will come a day when the high school players we do get are developed properly and put in a position to succeed. There will come a day when this overdressed Boo Radley with a clipboard leads another program to insignificance.
"See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."
there's some unnecessary vitriol in your post.
But i will agree buzz looks clueless as a defensive coach.
So...what do you really think?
A little premature to denounce the whole program under Buzz....don't you think? Give it two years...one way or the other you will either be proven as ahead of the curve or a vitriolic reactionist.
To paraphrase radio talk show host Mark Levin, "shut up you idiot and get off our board!"
Scoreboard, folks.
I expect the defenders around here to get more and more nasty as the truth sets in and they become more desperate to avoid admission of how wrong they were about this clown.
Buzz isn't the guy. He just doesn't have it in him.
Quote from: silverback on February 15, 2011, 10:27:35 PM
Scoreboard, folks.
I expect the defenders around here to get more and more nasty as the truth sets in and they become more desperate to avoid admission of how wrong they were about this clown.
Buzz isn't the guy. He just doesn't have it in him.
Let's hear your solution for who is the coach to get it done at MU (that will actually come to MU).
and hire a proven winner that coaches disciple basketball. This team is the most un-disciplined team I have EVER seen. Just pathetic. At HOME, against St. Johns, a MUST win, on Al's night and we lay another huge Fing egg in the second half.
HORRIBLE.
No hate towards Buzz but this season definitely marks the end of his honeymoon, for me at least.
He needs better assistants, imho.
Moron, we made the NCAA 2 seasons in a row with Buzz and we can this year. By your standards I guess Tom Izzo and Roy Williams are terrible too.
Quote from: New Era Warriors on February 15, 2011, 10:31:23 PM
and hire a proven winner that coaches disciple basketball. This team is the most un-disciplined team I have EVER seen. Just pathetic. At HOME, against St. Johns, a MUST win, on Al's night and we lay another huge Fing egg in the second half.
HORRIBLE.
Who do you have in mind? I'm all ears.
Quote from: New Era Warriors on February 15, 2011, 10:31:23 PM
and hire a proven winner that coaches disciple basketball. This team is the most un-disciplined team I have EVER seen. Just pathetic. At HOME, against St. Johns, a MUST win, on Al's night and we lay another huge Fing egg in the second half.
HORRIBLE.
Again, please name a proven winner that will come to MU and coach. When is the last time MU has hired a "proven winner?"
Quote from: Ners on February 15, 2011, 10:34:06 PM
Again, please name a proven winner that will come to MU and coach. When is the last time MU has hired a "proven winner?"
New orleans wouldn't even want him back
It's way too premature to look for possible replacements, but if we struggle next year I can see MU going after a guy like Brian Gregory.
I hear Bob Knight is on the market and that he has a soft spot in his heart for Jesuit Schools in Milwaukee
and he'll be leaving us with a bare cupboard by the time he is gone
Quote from: groove on February 15, 2011, 10:36:07 PM
New orleans wouldn't even want him back
Losers have a way of always complaining but never offering solutions. Still waiting for you to offer some solutions. Step up and share with all of us what proven winner of a coach is salivating to come to Marquette.
Quote from: denverMU on February 15, 2011, 10:33:47 PM
Moron, we made the NCAA 2 seasons in a row with Buzz and we can this year. By your standards I guess Tom Izzo and Roy Williams are terrible too.
This is a terrible comparison. Check out the hardware that Izzo and R. Williams have. When Buzz has a national championship under his belt, call me back. Heck, call me back when they make the sweet sixteen. Izzo and R. Williams have
earned a longer leash, without a doubt. Buzz has established no such credibility.
Mark Turgeon
Wrong!!!!
Buzz did not loose this game. Are two JUCO guards mailed this one in.
Quote from: New Era Warriors on February 15, 2011, 10:39:33 PM
Mark Turgeon
If you think he's going to leave Texas A&M for MU..that alone illustrates part of the problem with some of our fanbase - unrealistic perception of the programs appeal and stature on the national coaching landscape.
Todd Bozeman
Brad Stevens
Brian Warldle (not proven winner, but still)
Quote from: Jam Chowder on February 15, 2011, 10:39:20 PM
This is a terrible comparison. Check out the hardware that Izzo and R. Williams have. When Buzz has a national championship under his belt, call me back. Heck, call me back when they make the sweet sixteen. Izzo and R. Williams have earned a longer leash, without a doubt. Buzz has established no such credibility.
It's just as bad to compare a coach in his 3rd season, at 38 years old to guys who are 50+ with 20+ years coaching experience - one of which is has coached at Kansas and UNC - 2 of the blue blood programs in CBB
Quote from: Ners on February 15, 2011, 10:39:14 PM
Losers have a way of always complaining but never offering solutions. Still waiting for you to offer some solutions. Step up and share with all of us what proven winner of a coach is salivating to come to Marquette.
I dislike the tone and attacks on Buzz in this thread.
With that said, Ners, I don't think throwing your hands up and saying that MU can't do any better is really a ringing endorsement for your favorite coach.
With that sort of attitude, MU should have kept Dukiet, stayed in the arena, and play in the A10. "Well, what if we can't do better??"
Buzz is a good coach and I like him, but not because I don't think MU "Can do better".
Quote from: Ners on February 15, 2011, 10:39:14 PM
Losers have a way of always complaining but never offering solutions. Still waiting for you to offer some solutions. Step up and share with all of us what proven winner of a coach is salivating to come to Marquette.
So if you have an old pair of shoes with crap on them, you don't wipe off the crap?
It seems like it was Buzz suited up on the court against five St. Johns players.
Get a grip guys! Buzz has been fine! I'm not satisfied with how we were playing today, but come on there are five PLAYERS on the court too! I used to think everyone only obsessed over Crean leaving, but now I think people go out of their way to blame Buzz for EVERYTHING, or really anything!
Quote from: groove on February 15, 2011, 10:48:53 PM
So if you have an old pair of shoes with crap on them, you don't wipe off the crap?
Still waiting for some solutions..
Quote from: New Era Warriors on February 15, 2011, 10:43:53 PM
Todd Bozeman
Brad Stevens
Brian Warldle (not proven winner, but still)
Really?? How is Butler doing this year? Todd Bozeman - u r aware as to why he's been relegated to coaching at Morgan State? Brian Wardle? I'm not even going to comment on that..
Quote from: silverback on February 15, 2011, 10:07:03 PM
There's no denying the fact or defending what we've seen in the last few games. Just awful, clueless, gutless basketball.
We ARE and will continue to be the worst coached team in the Big East. There are teams with less talent behind us in the standings. But given our players, they would also display higher basketball IQ and more hustle than us.
This is also the worst defensive squad seen at Marquette since at least Mike Deane's last couple of teams — or since Dukiet's era at the very least. The proud, tough defensive identity of Marquette basketball built by O'Neill and Crean has been so totally wiped out by this current rube's "paint touches, free throws, just outscore them" idiocy that I'm left dreaming of the day when this Three Stooges reject from Texas takes his sweet tea and barnyard wisdom on to his next victim.
Get upset and sanctimonious, if you choose. Drink the blue and gold kool-aid and pretend the future is bright. But the Buzz honeymoon is over regardless of how this season progresses. Local media is onto him, and so are fans who've been around long enough to know better. The calls for new leadership will begin now with whispers and build consistently now that Crean's properly developed players are gone.
I'll stay a fan and await the inevitable. There will come a new day of proper, well-developed Marquette recruits from major high schools instead of a mishmash of kids not talented or not bright enough to play at a major program out of high school. There will come a day when the high school players we do get are developed properly and put in a position to succeed. There will come a day when this overdressed Boo Radley with a clipboard leads another program to insignificance.
"See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."
This was a pretty strong sentence, but we both know Buzz isn't going anywhere soon.
Insane, knee jerk thread. This is how you handle a little adversity as a fan?
Buzz is a good coach. This is just not as good of a team as most expected mostly because Cadougan couldn't keep a recycling bin in front of him and Blue can't do anything. No PG and no leadership on the floor.
Disappointing game. But fire Buzz? People are onto him??? Onto what? I am not surprised I guess, but come on...
I guess we will wait for the "new day" when we don't have a "mishmash" of what sounds like JUCOs. Well, when you don't have a 2007 or 2008 class, you can't just wish for players. I mean come on. Read this in a few days and you will be laughing at yourself.
St. John's is clearly the better team this year. A talented group of seniors went on the road and won a conference game tonight against an extremely inexperienced team. Stop the press. Good thing this isn't the "new day" yet.
Quote from: New Era Warriors on February 15, 2011, 10:43:53 PM
Todd Bozeman
Brad Stevens
Brian Warldle (not proven winner, but still)
Todd Bozeman...Nice! A guy that was banned from the NCAA for 8 years
try a zone once. pt gardners big arse in the middle and surround him with hustlin maniacs then switch back to man/man. buzz is tryin to jam a square thru a rond hole. he should know our players strengths and weaknesses by now. play to them. everyone isn't a good man-man playa, zone breakers, outside, inside, game situations. he's too predictable. swing swing paint touch, jam a bounce pass inside to be deflected and stolen...
Quote from: wyzgy on February 16, 2011, 07:19:05 AM
try a zone once. pt gardners big arse in the middle and surround him with hustlin maniacs then switch back to man/man. buzz is tryin to jam a square thru a rond hole. he should know our players strengths and weaknesses by now. play to them. everyone isn't a good man-man playa, zone breakers, outside, inside, game situations. he's too predictable. swing swing paint touch, jam a bounce pass inside to be deflected and stolen...
We played a zone last night. On the first trip down the court DJO let Hardy hit a three.
Zone/Man/Whatever, our guards can't play perimiter D...and Junior is the popular target but I'm starting to honestly think he's a better defender than Buycks or DJO. DJO's defense is horrendous.
OK, I am as disappointed as anyone with this team this year. But firing Buzz is a dumb move and goes against the commitment Marquette made when they hired him. We're a Jesuit school, we should live up to our commitments.
That said, I think of what the Chicago Bears did when they found out Lovie Smith was the crappy coach that he is. They hired former head coaches for offensive and defensive coordinator positions and for the offensive line. Suddenly, the love train looks like a genius and the Bears make the NFC Championship (losing to God's team). Look at St. John's last night -- Gene Keady was over on the sideline as an assistant coach.
What Buzz needs his his version of Hank. Someone who can develop the strategy and coach the fundamentals. Hank bled Warrior blue and while he never should have been head coach, as Al's right-hand guy, he was a huge difference maker. And he was not alone in that role. See Guthridge, Bill, North Carolina Assistant to Smith, Dean.
Almost everybody has an off year. Crean did. O'Neill did. Well, Al didn't but he's an exception! Tune the staff up and let's go for that NCAA Championship in the next few years.
What a bunch of jerks or should that be fools ?
:) :D SEAN MILLER
Wow... there are all sorts of characters coming out of the woodwork this morning.
St. John's is a GOOD team. Where were all of you when we lost to UCONN a few weeks back?
The season isn't nearly over, MU likely still controls its own NCAA destiny over the next five games, and some people want to throw in the towel and fire the coach. Pathetic.
Quote from: Ners on February 15, 2011, 10:34:06 PM
Again, please name a proven winner that will come to MU and coach. When is the last time MU has hired a "proven winner?"
I don't agree that Buzz should go, but I'm so sick and tired of the "you can't say that unless you have a better alternative" crowd. If that was the standard for whether or not a coach should be fired, most programs (especially "stepping stone" programs) would never fire a coach. Sometimes the guy needs to go, even if you haven't identified his replacement yet. I'm not saying that Buzz needs to go, but I think that "who will replace him" is a really stupid reason to keep someone around.
I don't know it all, but I would rather have Lavin and Keady than Buzz and co.
Quote from: Ners on February 15, 2011, 10:39:14 PM
Losers have a way of always complaining but never offering solutions. Still waiting for you to offer some solutions. Step up and share with all of us what proven winner of a coach is salivating to come to Marquette.
Another post on the same theme. Let me ask a hypothetical question: if Buzz totally screws up the next two years (and I
don't think he will), can you tell me who will be salivating to come to Marquette then? Is your standard of whether a coach should be fired whether there is an identified "better" coach salivating to come? There are hundreds -- probably thousands -- of coaches that are salivating for every single D-I opening...even more in a conference like ours. Rest assured, there are coaches salivating to come to Marquette. I can't name them for you, but they're out there. If it turns out that someone decides that Buzz needs to go, someone at Marquette will need to try to figure out which of those guys is the right guy. It's an inexact science, but it's a fact of life for programs like ours.
Even after the success that we had under Crean (love him or hate him, we did have some success) when a lot of us wanted to believe that Marquette was a destination job, we learned that the coaches we wanted weren't salivating to come to Milwaukee. The same thing is almost certainly true now; will probably be true in the future if Buzz has a rough couple of years and gets fired; and will probably be true in the future if Buzz is very successful and moves on to another job. As much as I wish it were otherwise, I think that is probably who we are: a program that will hire relatively inexperienced coaches who are not widely known.
I still think that the best coach is about 90% recruiter, 9% teacher and 1% strategist. Buzz is probably the best recruiter since Al.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on February 16, 2011, 11:02:55 AM
I don't agree that Buzz should go, but I'm so sick and tired of the "you can't say that unless you have a better alternative" crowd. If that was the standard for whether or not a coach should be fired, most programs (especially "stepping stone" programs) would never fire a coach. Sometimes the guy needs to go, even if you haven't identified his replacement yet. I'm not saying that Buzz needs to go, but I think that "who will replace him" is a really stupid reason to keep someone around.
What I think is even more stupid as that this debate is even being had. Talk about stupid. A guy in his 3rd year as a head coach, with 2 NCAA's and having a challenging 3rd year - having played more Top 25 teams than EVER in MU history - and we have this thread. Stupid.
There is a reason the cliche - be careful what you wish for - exists. History has shown MU to not be a destination job, and in our last go around we were told "no" by many young, relatively inexperienced coaches. People really think we are going to get a veteran, proven, high level D1 coach? Please. Plus Buzz has done significantly better than all the hot young coaches at the time of his hire: Bennett, Grant, Miller Davis.
Well he is recruiting a lot of top 100 recruits. But it's like drafting in the NFL. There are 32 guys picked in the first round, not all of them turn out to be good, the key is being able to pick out the talented players from the posers. So far the jury is out on whether the top 100 recruits that Buzz snagged are actually going to be productive or sit on the bench. Just because a recruiting service tags a player as a top 100 recruit doesn't guarantee that the player actually ends up having top 100 talent.
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 11:36:29 AM
Plus Buzz has done significantly better than all the hot young coaches at the time of his hire: Bennett, Grant, Miller Davis.
You sure about this? In terms of win/loss percentage probably, but Buzz also inherited a team with a great deal of talent. Bennett is a national coach of the year recipient. Grant has turned Alabama around from nothing in his second year. Sean Miller has Arizona on the top of the Pac Ten. (If you mean Keno Davis by Davis, I don't think MU ever looked at him and he is a notch below the rest.)
I really doubt that if those three were in Buzz's shoes that the results would have been any worse. So to say he has done "significantly" better is a little misleading.
Quote from: LAZER on February 15, 2011, 11:03:42 PM
Todd Bozeman...Nice! A guy that was banned from the NCAA for 8 years
Sampson should be allow back in the NCAA soon....
Quote from: groove on February 16, 2011, 11:38:49 AM
Well he is recruiting a lot of top 100 recruits. But it's like drafting in the NFL. There are 32 guys picked in the first round, not all of them turn out to be good, the key is being able to pick out the talented players from the posers. So far the jury is out on whether the top 100 recruits that Buzz snagged are actually going to be productive or sit on the bench. Just because a recruiting service tags a player as a top 100 recruit doesn't guarantee that the player actually ends up having top 100 talent.
But you also have to give him credit for finding DJO, Butler, and Crowder. Those guys are true Big East players. Fulce is too to a certain extent. And, to be honest, Buycks has been all right when he plays in his natural spot.
We all might be praising Buzz for developing two three star big men into Big East caliber players next season.
To your point, though, the top 100 players have not yet lived up to their hype.
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 11:36:29 AM
What I think is even more stupid as that this debate is even being had. Talk about stupid. A guy in his 3rd year as a head coach, with 2 NCAA's and having a challenging 3rd year - having played more Top 25 teams than EVER in MU history - and we have this thread. Stupid.
There is a reason the cliche - be careful what you wish for - exists. History has shown MU to not be a destination job, and in our last go around we were told "no" by many young, relatively inexperienced coaches. People really think we are going to get a veteran, proven, high level D1 coach? Please. Plus Buzz has done significantly better than all the hot young coaches at the time of his hire: Bennett, Grant, Miller Davis.
In my personal opinion, it's premature to talk about replacing Buzz, so I agree that this is a stupid debate. I'll admit I'm growing increasingly concerned, but in my opinion we shouldn't even begin having that discussion for at least another year (and hopefully it won't be necessary).
If you want to argue that it's too early to have this debate, then go for it. It's when people argue, "you can't say he should go unless you tell me who would you replace him with" that I get annoyed. That is not a reason to keep a coach. And the rest of your post makes that point -- there may never be a desirable coach who is salivating to come to Marquette because it's not a destination job.
If Buzz totally crashes and burns over the next 2-3 seasons, will you argue, "but who's salivating to replace him?" I suspect not. So really, we're just talking about timing. Some people on this board think he's already proved so deficient that he should be canned right now, even if they don't know who will step in (and a recent poll showed that this is a very small, but vocal minority). Some people think it's too early to talk about getting rid of him, but presumably at some time in the future might want him canned even if there is nobody else salivating to come in. It's a question of timing, and not a question of who will replace him. Unless, of course, you truly believe that we can never replace a coach if there isn't a suitable candidate just itching to step in.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 11:50:10 AM
You sure about this? In terms of win/loss percentage probably, but Buzz also inherited a team with a great deal of talent. Bennett is a national coach of the year recipient. Grant has turned Alabama around from nothing in his second year. Sean Miller has Arizona on the top of the Pac Ten. (If you mean Keno Davis by Davis, I don't think MU ever looked at him and he is a notch below the rest.)
I really doubt that if those three were in Buzz's shoes that the results would have been any worse. So to say he has done "significantly" better is a little misleading.
+1 People don't compare apples to apples here very well, but you just did a nice job of calibrating it correctly.
Does it really matter what those guys do though? I thought we reached out to Miller and he didn't want to come here. I remember Grant said that he wasn't going to leave the South. Bennett did not want to come here either. I know Chicos has said that we could have waited a little bit to get a more proven coach. I honestly don't remember much of the coaching changes immediately after Buzz was hired, but who were some of the other coaches that had we waited would have been a good candidate?
Quote from: HoopsMalone on February 16, 2011, 12:36:26 PM
But you also have to give him credit for finding DJO, Butler, and Crowder. Those guys are true Big East players.
To your point, though, the top 100 players have not yet lived up to their hype.
I think this post helps make the point I was trying to make in my earlier posts in this thread...albeit in a roundabout way.
As I said, there are hundreds or thousands of coaches right now who would be salivating to coach at Marquette. It's quite possible that most of us here haven't heard of any of them. But who here had heard of Jae Crowder 18 months ago? That's not meant as a slight to Jae -- he's my favorite player on this team. The point is that there are a lot of talented people out there -- players
and coaches -- that are more than capable of succeeding at this level. Just because the coaches we've all heard of might not be lining up to coach at Marquette doesn't mean that the next great coach isn't one that is. I'm still holding out hope that Marquette already found it's diamond in the rough and that Buzz is that guy.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on February 16, 2011, 12:36:26 PM
But you also have to give him credit for finding DJO, Butler, and Crowder. Those guys are true Big East players. Fulce is too to a certain extent. And, to be honest, Buycks has been all right when he plays in his natural spot.
We all might be praising Buzz for developing two three star big men into Big East caliber players next season.
To your point, though, the top 100 players have not yet lived up to their hype.
Yes I do, good finds on his part.
Does anyone know if DJO is hurt? why wasn't he playing point last game.. Is he a PG? Im confused with Buzz's line-ups i guess
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 16, 2011, 12:47:55 PM
Does it really matter what those guys do though? I thought we reached out to Miller and he didn't want to come here. I remember Grant said that he wasn't going to leave the South. Bennett did not want to come here either. I know Chicos has said that we could have waited a little bit to get a more proven coach. I honestly don't remember much of the coaching changes immediately after Buzz was hired, but who were some of the other coaches that had we waited would have been a good candidate?
I doubt you will ever get an acutal list from anyone here as to which experienced or accomplished candidates would have come to MU - had we waited longer...because the answer is - there wasn't any accomplished/experienced candidates that wanted the MU job. Considering we got shot down by 4 young coaches, what makes one think an experienced, accomplished coach (that could actually recruit at a Big East level), would come to MU?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 12:39:44 PM
+1 People don't compare apples to apples here very well, but you just did a nice job of calibrating it correctly.
I'm not sure there are any apples-to-apples comparisons that can be made. Too many variables.
If you can make one, go right ahead.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 11:50:10 AM
I really doubt that if those three were in Buzz's shoes that the results would have been any worse. So to say he has done "significantly" better is a little misleading.
I guess it depends on what you mean by significantly. Last year, Buzz over achieved bigtime in my opinion. St. John's Seton Hall, Cincy, Louisville were all more talented that MU, and Buzz put it together and got us into the tourney. Remember, most people did not think Acker or Cubillan were high major players. Based on athleticism and size, they really were not. The Big East was not as good at the top last year, but the middle was just as good and we came out pretty well.
This year, like has been chronicled by the posts about our tough schedule, we are losing to good teams. St. John's is more talented team with a bunch of seniors. We haven't lost to them since LBJ was in office, but this year they are the more talented team.
Buzz should get heat now and praise last year. I love that a fanbase does not accept losing. But, we just don't have as much talent as some of the other teams. I am not sure another coach would be doing any better.
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 16, 2011, 12:47:55 PM
Does it really matter what those guys do though? I thought we reached out to Miller and he didn't want to come here. I remember Grant said that he wasn't going to leave the South. Bennett did not want to come here either. I know Chicos has said that we could have waited a little bit to get a more proven coach. I honestly don't remember much of the coaching changes immediately after Buzz was hired, but who were some of the other coaches that had we waited would have been a good candidate?
My point was and will always be that Buzz wasn't going anywhere. His one head coaching stint lasted 1 year with a losing record and he left that program on his own accord. So you have Buzz as a fallback, you spend a few more weeks to get a guy. If you don't, then Buzz is still there. No harm no foul.
Some have argued here that you simply can't wait a few weeks. I call BS. I remember people here ripping on SJU for the Lavin hire because it took so long...really? I think they did a phenomenal job with that hire. I'd argue DePaul did a wonderful job as well considering how long it took and who they got. Who cares if it takes a few extra weeks.
MU wanted to preserve a recruiting class and they felt Buzz was the best way to do it. That obviously didn't work and shouldn't surprise anyone as the recruiting class largely broke up. That was my beef, time we had and we were at the top of the mountain with an absolutely LOADED team. Spend more than 72 hours to see who you can get.
Now, having said all that, the idea of getting rid of Buzz or saying he's the worst coach in the conference, etc...I find that all to be complete crap. He's a good coach, he's a young coach, a very good recruiter, he definitely has some learning to do but let's get some perspective. I'm not wild about his assistants but I thought the assistants for our previous HD left a lot to be desired during some years as well. I'm more concerned with his philosophy sometimes than anything else.
Buzz is our guy and we just have to hope they can get over the hump. This is a brutal league to cut your chops in coaching. Brutal. That was the risk we took in April of 2008. It was a risk then and it's still a risk today. That doesn't mean that risk won't pay off handsomely. We just don't know.
THIS IS WHY PEOPLE NEED TO WAIT MORE THAN 2 YEARS TO START CROWNING PRINCES around here.
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 01:18:04 PM
I doubt you will ever get an acutal list from anyone here as to which experienced or accomplished candidates would have come to MU - had we waited longer...because the answer is - there wasn't any accomplished/experienced candidates that wanted the MU job. Considering we got shot down by 4 young coaches, what makes one think an experienced, accomplished coach (that could actually recruit at a Big East level), would come to MU?
That's not the point. The point is you made an inaccurate comment.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 16, 2011, 01:36:22 PM
I'm not sure there are any apples-to-apples comparisons that can be made. Too many variables.
If you can make one, go right ahead.
I probably can't, but I know it's naive to say Coach X at this school did better than Coach Y at that school and just leave it that. Yet we hear this type of analysis here all too often. This is why I've said from day one not to judge our coaching situation in the first few years. You judge a coach when he has HIS players and has them for several years. Call it the Matt Doherty or Bruiser Flint Rule, because no one knows until they are truly on their own.
Quote from: silverback on February 15, 2011, 10:07:03 PM
There's no denying the fact or defending what we've seen in the last few games. Just awful, clueless, gutless basketball.
We ARE and will continue to be the worst coached team in the Big East. There are teams with less talent behind us in the standings. But given our players, they would also display higher basketball IQ and more hustle than us.
This is also the worst defensive squad seen at Marquette since at least Mike Deane's last couple of teams — or since Dukiet's era at the very least. The proud, tough defensive identity of Marquette basketball built by O'Neill and Crean has been so totally wiped out by this current rube's "paint touches, free throws, just outscore them" idiocy that I'm left dreaming of the day when this Three Stooges reject from Texas takes his sweet tea and barnyard wisdom on to his next victim.
Get upset and sanctimonious, if you choose. Drink the blue and gold kool-aid and pretend the future is bright. But the Buzz honeymoon is over regardless of how this season progresses. Local media is onto him, and so are fans who've been around long enough to know better. The calls for new leadership will begin now with whispers and build consistently now that Crean's properly developed players are gone.
I'll stay a fan and await the inevitable. There will come a new day of proper, well-developed Marquette recruits from major high schools instead of a mishmash of kids not talented or not bright enough to play at a major program out of high school. There will come a day when the high school players we do get are developed properly and put in a position to succeed. There will come a day when this overdressed Boo Radley with a clipboard leads another program to insignificance.
"See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."
Look - say what yoyu want about HOW the team is playing, how they are undisciplined, how you do not like the way Buzz coaches etc. etc. - all fair game. But all of your caustic remarks against Buzz and the players as people are out of line
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 01:18:04 PM
I doubt you will ever get an acutal list from anyone here as to which experienced or accomplished candidates would have come to MU - had we waited longer...because the answer is - there wasn't any accomplished/experienced candidates that wanted the MU job. Considering we got shot down by 4 young coaches, what makes one think an experienced, accomplished coach (that could actually recruit at a Big East level), would come to MU?
Agree, probably will not know the list.
Disagree with your last sentence....I believe MU wanted to save a recruiting class and they also didn't want it to look like a bunch of coaches shot them down so they acted quickly after Miller and Bennett said no. This is why running a quiet search, something Cords was very good at, is absolutely critical. The media will get antsy and speculate, but tough.
Remember this entry from way back when?
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2008/05/cottingham-details-process.html
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 02:02:07 PM
That's not the point. The point is you made an inaccurate comment.
So you are saying I pulled a Sultan? Sorry - I'll try to get it right (in your view) next time. But, if you want to debate the point - all 4 of the coaches in question shot MU down - so who really cares what results they got? But if you want to dissect the results of those 4 coaches who told MU thanks but no thanks - Buzz has the best results thus far.
Does Sean Miller coach in the Big East?? No. Anthony Grant in the Big East? No. Tony Bennett in the Big East? No. Keno Davis in the Big East? Yes. The performance of Davis PALES in comparison to Buzz Williams. Bennett, Grant and Miller haven't done jack the past 2 seasons. So Sean Miller has Arizona at the top of the Pac 10 this year? How did he fare last year? Was Arizona not a Top 5-10 program under Lute Olson? Pretty strong legacy of success at Arizona.
And FYI - the point I made was in response to the poster inquiring as to who we might have been able to land if not Buzz at the time of his hire. Those who are frustrated with the Buzz hire, mention we didn't wait long enough to see who else was available - based on who shot us down - hard to believe and established, accomplished, successful veteran coach would have accepted the MU gig.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on February 16, 2011, 01:42:17 PM
Remember, most people did not think Acker or Cubillan were high major players. Based on athleticism and size, they really were not.
I truly believe that those people made those assertions based on who brought them in and not based on their ability. I remember reading absolutely ridiculous commentary last year that not only weren't they high major DI, but not DI players at all, which was insanity.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 02:04:24 PM
I probably can't, but I know it's naive to say Coach X at this school did better than Coach Y at that school and just leave it that. Yet we hear this type of analysis here all too often. This is why I've said from day one not to judge our coaching situation in the first few years. You judge a coach when he has HIS players and has them for several years. Call it the Matt Doherty or Bruiser Flint Rule, because no one knows until they are truly on their own.
I find it ironic that you trumpet the 5 year wait and see rule, yet 3 posts above in this thread, you are heraliding the hires of Steve Lavin and Oliver Purnell. Never can do an apples to apples comparison - but I do know that Chicago and New York City are much better hotbeds of high school talent than Milwaukee. I wonder if Lavin would have come to MKE?
I don't disagree with you that MU could have waited on Buzz for awhile longer - but there is something to be said about trying to retain a recruiting class - but on the bigger picture - also that it doesn't appear you settled on yoru last resort as a coach. So if MU went through a long process, and only came back to Buzz at the end - just saying, not the best way to start a relationship...
Ners---Lavin coaches in BE and everyone on here thought we were too good to talk to him. We hired an unproven, unknown and we are starting to see why he was unproven, unknown.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 02:36:29 PM
I truly believe that those people made those assertions based on who brought them in and not based on their ability. I remember reading absolutely ridiculous commentary last year that not only weren't they high major DI, but not DI players at all, which was insanity.
BS. Early in his Jr. Year Acker looked lost as the PG. He picked it up at the end of the year when he had to, but we had NO idea he was going to become a lethal 3 pt shooter his Sr. year. It worked out better than most people hoped based on what the had seen through his Jr year.
Cubillan his Jr year struggled with shoulder problems and had seemed to lose his shooting touch. When playing PG he was usually lost. Driving to the hoop he was repeatedly rejected. His Sr. year? The shooting came back, he started having success driving to the hoop and distributing the ball. Again, low expectations based on what fans had seen through the end of his Jr year.
There was no bias based on who recruited them, but rather a bias based on their play the previous year.
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 02:33:26 PM
So you are saying I pulled a Sultan? Sorry - I'll try to get it right (in your view) next time. But, if you want to debate the point - all 4 of the coaches in question shot MU down - so who really cares what results they got?
LOL....**YOU** brought them up!!! I didn't...
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 02:33:26 PM
Does Sean Miller coach in the Big East?? No. Anthony Grant in the Big East? No. Tony Bennett in the Big East? No. Keno Davis in the Big East? Yes. The performance of Davis PALES in comparison to Buzz Williams. Bennett, Grant and Miller haven't done jack the past 2 seasons. So Sean Miller has Arizona at the top of the Pac 10 this year? How did he fare last year? Was Arizona not a Top 5-10 program under Lute Olson? Pretty strong legacy of success at Arizona.
That's what I figured your argument would be. I am excluding Davis, but the other three all started at places that were in much worse shape than MU was when Buzz took over. You don't seem to take that into consideration. Anything to make Buzz look good in your eyes...
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 02:41:08 PM
I find it ironic that you trumpet the 5 year wait and see rule, yet 3 posts above in this thread, you are heraliding the hires of Steve Lavin and Oliver Purnell. Never can do an apples to apples comparison - but I do know that Chicago and New York City are much better hotbeds of high school talent than Milwaukee. I wonder if Lavin would have come to MKE?
I don't disagree with you that MU could have waited on Buzz for awhile longer - but there is something to be said about trying to retain a recruiting class - but on the bigger picture - also that it doesn't appear you settled on yoru last resort as a coach. So if MU went through a long process, and only came back to Buzz at the end - just saying, not the best way to start a relationship...
Nothing ironic at all, I'm trumpeting their (DePaul and SJU) HIRING PROCESS not whether they will end up as great coaches. BIG DIFFERENCE. READ my friend, READ!! They took their time and got good candidates with good track records. They were lauded for it, hell I took my own shots at DePaul because it's easy to do and fans do that stuff. At the end of the day, their process was more thorough than ours.
I will use my same 4 to 5 years to judge them as I did our previous guy, our current guy, etc.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 16, 2011, 02:52:29 PM
BS. Early in his Jr. Year Acker looked lost as the PG. He picked it up at the end of the year when he had to, but we had NO idea he was going to become a lethal 3 pt shooter his Sr. year. It worked out better than most people hoped based on what the had seen through his Jr year.
Cubillan his Jr year struggled with shoulder problems and had seemed to lose his shooting touch. When playing PG he was usually lost. Driving to the hoop he was repeatedly rejected. His Sr. year? The shooting came back, he started having success driving to the hoop and distributing the ball. Again, low expectations based on what fans had seen through the end of his Jr year.
There was no bias based on who recruited them, but rather a bias based on their play the previous year.
So if I find a bunch of posts that say he can't play linked with because of who brought him in, does that make the BS go away?
Yes, Cubes had injury issues, that hardly makes him less a DI player as some here were saying, he just needed to recover. The overall point was that they were the sum of the parts. On their own, Mo and Cubes are good but not great players. On that team with all those ball handlers, they were wonderful complimentary players. People here get too caught up in individual performances and not TEAM PLAY. That's one of the things Wisconsin does so well. It's also why the Gasser rip jobs here are so out of line. At the end of the day, Gasser isn't going to have the stats, but he fits a role on that team...a team that is playing much better than ours. A team with a few stars and a lot of guys that get their role. What a concept.
Did you guys fix the ghosts in the machine last night that had posts magically disappearing?
Quote from: Goose on February 16, 2011, 02:42:29 PM
Ners---Lavin coaches in BE and everyone on here thought we were too good to talk to him. We hired an unproven, unknown and we are starting to see why he was unproven, unknown.
I highly doubt MU thought they were "too good" to talk to Lavin. I also highly doubt that L.A. Lavin would have settled in Milwaukee. NYC on the other hand - that's more Lavin.
Ners----Bob Huggins went to Manhattan, KS, Lavin would have come to MU. Unfortunately Cottingham listened to TC and Doc Rivers and the rest is history.
I stick with my premise that MU and too many fans set a low bar for us. Hear all the time "he would not" or "why would He come here?" from posters on here. Money talks and we walk.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 02:53:04 PM
LOL....**YOU** brought them up!!! I didn't...
That's what I figured your argument would be. I am excluding Davis, but the other three all started at places that were in much worse shape than MU was when Buzz took over. You don't seem to take that into consideration. Anything to make Buzz look good in your eyes...
Arizona and Virginia aren't exactly bottom of the barrel universities or destinations. And, Arizona was a Top 20 program for about 20 of the last 22 years. Alabama recently beat MU in the NCAA tourney, did that not in 2005-2006? Not sure that the empty MU recruiting classes after the Big 3 Class exactly set MU up to be in a great position after the Big 3 graduated...
Quote from: Goose on February 16, 2011, 03:09:03 PM
Ners----Bob Huggins went to Manhattan, KS, Lavin would have come to MU. Unfortunately Cottingham listened to TC and Doc Rivers and the rest is history.
I stick with my premise that MU and too many fans set a low bar for us. Hear all the time "he would not" or "why would He come here?" from posters on here. Money talks and we walk.
I'd still say you are a little quick to judge how things are going to turn out under Buzz. Steve Lavin aint Bob Huggins (a West Virginia born and raised individual). Lavin is city slick.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 02:57:37 PM
So if I find a bunch of posts that say he can't play linked with because of who brought him in, does that make the BS go away?
Only if those posts come from someone other than the 5 usual's that make a living ripping on the guy that recruited Mo and DC.
Money talks. NOBODY aside from MU offered Buzz a job when TC left. We made a knee jerk decision, which was made by non basketball people. The advisory board listened to Doc and TC and ran with it. Twenty hours over thirteen interviews and three days they concluded Buzz was it.
I will stand behind me 100% because next hire would be based off a Buzz recommendation the way things are run here. Buzz needs a quality assistant and things will improve.
Ners you keep moving the goalposts. You said they have accomplished significantly less. We aren't debating which program is best.
Well if Marquette were to fire Buzz I know who they should hire. Randy Bennett coach of St. Marys
Quote from: Masterr73 on February 16, 2011, 03:55:23 PM
Well if Marquette were to fire Buzz I know who they should hire. Randy Bennett coach of St. Marys
yeah i think four straight 20 win seasons at a mid major beats one season of 14-15 at a mid-major anytime, but then again you have to search for more than 72 hours to find that type of coach. Hopefully the next job search will last longer than 72 hours. Nothing wrong with having someone like buzz as a choice to fall back on.
Seriously? People are still ticked about about how quickly Buzz was hired? Good grief people - learn to move on with life!
What MU should have done was posted the job externally for 2 weeks, then brought the candidates in for an HR interview, waited a week, then did call backs to meet the hiring manager, waited another week, brought the candidates in to meet all of the bosses and then after gathering input from all of the stakeholders, made a decision and extend an offer, including the benefits package.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 03:46:25 PM
Ners you keep moving the goalposts. You said they have accomplished significantly less. We aren't debating which program is best.
It really is pointless to debate with you on this issue - because it is you who keeps moving the goalposts. When you make a statement - about how much worse off those programs were (Prov, Virginia, Arizona, Alabama), then I shift the debate to the program. Initially, you tried to argue that Buzz's results haven't been significantly better than Miller, Davis, Grant and Bennett - but since they ARE better - and significantly better - you then brought up the "state of those programs." Now, you complain that I am debating which program is best? I'm pretty much mindf'd at this point!!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 02:53:04 PM
LOL....**YOU** brought them up!!! I didn't...
That's what I figured your argument would be. I am excluding Davis, but the other three all started at places that were in much worse shape than MU was when Buzz took over. You don't seem to take that into consideration. Anything to make Buzz look good in your eyes...
Quote from: rocky_warrior on February 16, 2011, 04:28:30 PM
Seriously? People are still ticked about about how quickly Buzz was hired? Good grief people - learn to move on with life!
Yes, lets beat Seton Hall and turn the tide around. It would be nice to jump out to a fast start and have someone shoot lights out. Get some confidence flowing and relax at the line.
Quite the thread we have here. Chico's said we hired Williams in 72 hours. Was it really that quick? I do remember that the search did not last too long. If it was in 72 hours, then we could not have reached out to all the guys that supposedly nixed us from the above posts.
And by the way, 3 days is simply not long enough to do a sufficient search.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 02:36:29 PM
I truly believe that those people made those assertions based on who brought them in and not based on their ability. I remember reading absolutely ridiculous commentary last year that not only weren't they high major DI, but not DI players at all, which was insanity.
I for one didn't think Acker and Cubillan were High D1 players because going into their senior years (with the exception of one of Cubi's seasons, freshman I think) they hadn't played very well for us at all. I was glad to be wrong.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 16, 2011, 04:45:52 PM
Quite the thread we have here. Chico's said we hired Williams in 72 hours. Was it really that quick? I do remember that the search did not last too long. If it was in 72 hours, then we could not have reached out to all the guys that supposedly nixed us from the above posts.
And by the way, 3 days is simply not long enough to do a sufficient search.
from an earlier post from chicos : "Depends when you start the clock. Search process started April 2nd, Buzz was announced April 8th but the decision to hire him was prior to the 8th with first leak that he was the guy on April 6th. Since Buzz wasn't option A or B, some will argue the clock doesn't start until after Miller and Bennett said no (Bennett on April 3rd and Miller on April 4th). "
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 04:31:02 PM
It really is pointless to debate with you on this issue - because it is you who keeps moving the goalposts. When you make a statement - about how much worse off those programs were (Prov, Virginia, Arizona, Alabama), then I shift the debate to the program. Initially, you tried to argue that Buzz's results haven't been significantly better than Miller, Davis, Grant and Bennett - but since they ARE better - and significantly better - you then brought up the "state of those programs." Now, you complain that I am debating which program is best? I'm pretty much mindf'd at this point!!
Whoa we have now entered "imaginary MUScoop" where Ners gets to make up what other people say!!!
I never once said "state of the programs" or anything of the sort. I said that those coaches took over basketball teams in worse shape which is why Buzz has accomplished "significantly more" in terms of won/loss.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 16, 2011, 04:45:52 PM
Quite the thread we have here. Chico's said we hired Williams in 72 hours. Was it really that quick? I do remember that the search did not last too long. If it was in 72 hours, then we could not have reached out to all the guys that supposedly nixed us from the above posts.
And by the way, 3 days is simply not long enough to do a sufficient search.
Some will say 6 days...search started the 2nd, announcement was the 8th but it was leaked on the 6th it was Buzz's job.
IMO, doesn't much matter. Water under the bridge at this point, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored, either. I'll disagree with Rocky and Z' on that one. Buzz is our guy and he's done a good job in 2.5 years. What will be critical to watch is how he does the next 2.5 years as he's further and further away from previous regime. That's how he will make his claim one way or the other.
I don't think this year's run is over. 4 of the final 5 are winnable games. It's up to Buzz and the guys to go get those wins.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 04:56:50 PM
Whoa we have now entered "imaginary MUScoop" where Ners gets to make up what other people say!!!
I never once said "state of the programs" or anything of the sort. I said that those coaches took over basketball teams in worse shape which is why Buzz has accomplished "significantly more" in terms of won/loss.
??? You aruged this morning that Buzz hasn't accomplished significantly more than Davis, Miller, Grant and Bennett - now above you say Buzz has?? It really is pointless to debate with you on this topic. What is the difference between "state of the programs," and "basketball teams in worse shape?" Amazingly, though - you never even said "basketball teams in worse shape" in your original post, your wrote "places" (to me places sounds geographical/state of the program-ish??:
I am excluding Davis, but the other
three all started at places that were in much worse shape than MU was when Buzz took over. You don't seem to take that into consideration. Anything to make Buzz look good in your eyes...
[/quote]
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 16, 2011, 11:50:10 AM
You sure about this? In terms of win/loss percentage probably, but Buzz also inherited a team with a great deal of talent. Bennett is a national coach of the year recipient. Grant has turned Alabama around from nothing in his second year. Sean Miller has Arizona on the top of the Pac Ten. (If you mean Keno Davis by Davis, I don't think MU ever looked at him and he is a notch below the rest.)
I really doubt that if those three were in Buzz's shoes that the results would have been any worse. So to say he has done "significantly" better is a little misleading.
??
So....with 4 bona fide HOF coaches already in or as a lock (Calhoun, Boeheim, Huggins and Pitino), two of the youngest and winningest coaches in Dixon (tied for most wins ever in first 7 seasons) and Wright (best offensive mind), Brey a Duke disciple (300+ career wins), four with successful coaching fathers if not HOF (Thompson, Willard, Davis, Rice), Heath who was an Izzo disciple has been a head coach at three schools, Purnell who has successively rebuilt multiple programs, and now Lavin is very accomplished and a great recruiter with Dunlop and HOF Keady on the bench. Multiple national champions, coaches of the year, NBA players, high NCAA finishes, NIT...
And you want to compare them to Buzz's chops? I think Buzz is holding his own on most days...he has a lot of growing to go but is open about it and makes adjustments game to game. Frustrating as a fan but also he is very creative and innovative--especially on offense..and these coaches fear playing MU. But, is it any wonder that these other guys ran for the hills when MU came a-knocking? Buzz is self-made and will get us there--mainly by trying to outwork everyone else.
Quote from: Goose on February 16, 2011, 03:09:03 PM
Ners----Bob Huggins went to Manhattan, KS, Lavin would have come to MU. Unfortunately Cottingham listened to TC and Doc Rivers and the rest is history.
I stick with my premise that MU and too many fans set a low bar for us. Hear all the time "he would not" or "why would He come here?" from posters on here. Money talks and we walk.
Don't forget Crean got into Strong's head also and Dickie had a very "strong" say in the process.
Ners...please stop misrepresenting what I have said. YOU are the one that said he accomplished significantly more. I have disputed your assertion from the beginning.
Disagree - I thought the really bad performance was offense today. The scored 80 points because our offense gave up a ridiculous 13 steals. When was the last time that happened?
Defense was above average on the defensive boards and fg percentage.
I think trashing the defense today is like trashing a defense in a game with several pick sixes.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 16, 2011, 05:39:04 PM
So....with 4 bona fide HOF coaches already in or as a lock (Calhoun, Boeheim, Huggins and Pitino), two of the youngest and winningest coaches in Dixon (tied for most wins ever in first 7 seasons) and Wright (best offensive mind), Brey a Duke disciple (300+ career wins), four with successful coaching fathers if not HOF (Thompson, Willard, Davis, Rice), Heath who was an Izzo disciple has been a head coach at three schools, Purnell who has successively rebuilt multiple programs, and now Lavin is very accomplished and a great recruiter with Dunlop and HOF Keady on the bench. Multiple national champions, coaches of the year, NBA players, high NCAA finishes, NIT...
And you want to compare them to Buzz's chops? I think Buzz is holding his own on most days...he has a lot of growing to go but is open about it and makes adjustments game to game. Frustrating as a fan but also he is very creative and innovative--especially on offense..and these coaches fear playing MU. But, is it any wonder that these other guys ran for the hills when MU came a-knocking? Buzz is self-made and will get us there--mainly by trying to outwork everyone else.
Just last year people here were saying Buzz was 10X the coach of Brey. The way people bagged on Purnell and Lavin, you would be surprised those two knew the ball was round.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 16, 2011, 06:23:01 PM
Just last year people here were saying Buzz was 10X the coach of Brey. The way people bagged on Purnell and Lavin, you would be surprised those two knew the ball was round.
Is Brey a great recruiter? No--relies on transfers-in but has been adequate...has always been a great game and prep coach. It took Goody to get hurt for him to change his philosophy for the better I must say. Brey was in trouble last year for off-the-court stuff.
As you know, Lavin always has been a great recruiter...and he has shored up his weaknesses on the chairs next to him. Being an analyst may have made him wiser. Was already in a pressure cooker so knows the BE grind.
Purnell hire stunned me...will be into his 60's if he can turn it around. Chicago AAU and CPS scene is tempting but is a tempest in a teapot. Still think this is a mis-fit long-term. Solid hire but the AD and school support is pathetic.
Quote from: radome on February 16, 2011, 11:32:46 AM
I still think that the best coach is about 90% recruiter, 9% teacher and 1% strategist. Buzz is probably the best recruiter since Al.
And what exactly qualifies Buzz as the best recruiter since Al McGuire? His teams haven't made it past the second round in the tournament, they make dumb mistakes (yes - if you don't want to put it on his coaching, then you can put it on his recruiting).
As a college coach, not only do you set the offense, call the plays, and train your players, but you PICK them as well. I can understand if you are a Junior College and have guys who simply can't make shots, but Buzz has gone after a rag-tag bunch of players that play poor defense (no, running over to help your fellow player and leaving someone wide open for a three is NOT good defense) and now he's getting blamed for it - as he should!
He runs this team 100%, and he needs to take what's coming to him. The original poster made a great point when they said that he did his best when the rest of Crean's crop was still here. The more players we lose from Crean's era, the worse we become, and Buzz's "best" recruiting skills since Al are not improving the team. We've gotten worse each year since Buzz started. Yes, we've lost some good players. But that's Buzz's job - fill the holes with new, great players.
Sorry dude, but you gotta go.
Buzz is the man...Love his hi-tops!
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 02:33:26 PM
The performance of Davis PALES in comparison to Buzz Williams. Bennett, Grant and Miller haven't done jack the past 2 seasons. So Sean Miller has Arizona at the top of the Pac 10 this year? How did he fare last year? Was Arizona not a Top 5-10 program under Lute Olson? Pretty strong legacy of success at Arizona.
And FYI - the point I made was in response to the poster inquiring as to who we might have been able to land if not Buzz at the time of his hire. Those who are frustrated with the Buzz hire, mention we didn't wait long enough to see who else was available - based on who shot us down - hard to believe and established, accomplished, successful veteran coach would have accepted the MU gig.
I think you're wrong in your statement that 4 coaches shot us down. I think the right number was 2--Bennett and Miller. The others announced that they weren't interested in the job after they knew that they weren't going to be considered--at least not until after MU looked at their 3rd choice--Buzz Williams.
The names of the experienced, successful coaches that many thought we should have considered include Southern Illinois' Chris Lowery, Vandy's Kevin Stallings, Wright State's Brad Brownell, Bradley's Jim Les, Creighton's Dana Altman.
Its hard to believe that all of those coaches would have turned us down.
Quote from: Marquette84 on February 16, 2011, 08:46:31 PM
I think you're wrong in your statement that 4 coaches shot us down. I think the right number was 2--Bennett and Miller. The others announced that they weren't interested in the job after they knew that they weren't going to be considered--at least not until after MU looked at their 3rd choice--Buzz Williams.
The names of the experienced, successful coaches that many thought we should have considered include Southern Illinois' Chris Lowery, Vandy's Kevin Stallings, Wright State's Brad Brownell, Bradley's Jim Les, Creighton's Dana Altman.
Its hard to believe that all of those coaches would have turned us down.
It is also highly suspect to think MVC/Horizon coaches could recruit at a Big East required level. Would we really be happy with bringing in coaches like Brownell and Les?? What have they accomplished? Why would Stallings leave Vandy for MU? What upside does MU offer that Vandy does not?
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 10:08:08 PM
It is also highly suspect to think MVC/Horizon coaches could recruit at a Big East required level. Would we really be happy with bringing in coaches like Brownell and Les?? What have they accomplished? Why would Stallings leave Vandy for MU? What upside does MU offer that Vandy does not?
at least as good as a coach from the Sun Belt conference
Quote from: berndie90 on February 16, 2011, 07:24:43 PM
And what exactly qualifies Buzz as the best recruiter since Al McGuire? His teams haven't made it past the second round in the tournament, they make dumb mistakes (yes - if you don't want to put it on his coaching, then you can put it on his recruiting).
As a college coach, not only do you set the offense, call the plays, and train your players, but you PICK them as well. I can understand if you are a Junior College and have guys who simply can't make shots, but Buzz has gone after a rag-tag bunch of players that play poor defense (no, running over to help your fellow player and leaving someone wide open for a three is NOT good defense) and now he's getting blamed for it - as he should!
He runs this team 100%, and he needs to take what's coming to him. The original poster made a great point when they said that he did his best when the rest of Crean's crop was still here. The more players we lose from Crean's era, the worse we become, and Buzz's "best" recruiting skills since Al are not improving the team. We've gotten worse each year since Buzz started. Yes, we've lost some good players. But that's Buzz's job - fill the holes with new, great players.
Sorry dude, but you gotta go.
Sorry dude - but if you think coaches at a school like MU hand select the Top 100 recruits they land...well...sorry dude..but you gotta go.
Would you care to tell us how Crean did after the Final Four team -pretty sure there were 2 terrible recruiting classes that followed, and 2 subsequent NIT appearances. did Crean all of a sudden lose the knack for "picking"his players he brought into MU? NO..you win some and lose some in recruiting. This isn't pro ball where you have a draft - I assume you know the difference, right?
Quote from: groove on February 16, 2011, 10:11:49 PM
at least as good as a coach from the Sun Belt conference
It is idiots like you that are the reason I post topics such as "I hope Buzz Williams leaves MU after this season."
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 10:15:21 PM
It is idiots like you that are the reason I post topics such as "I hope Buzz Williams leaves MU after this season."
So what is the difference between Buzz being in the Sun Belt and the others being in MVC or Horizon? Buzz came from the Sun Belt and is recruiting at his current level. Why would those qualified coaches from the MVC or Horizon not be able to recruit at that level
Quote from: groove on February 16, 2011, 10:19:39 PM
So what is the difference between Buzz being in the Sun Belt and the others being in MVC or Horizon? Buzz came from the Sun Belt and is recruiting at his current level. Why would those qualified coaches from the MVC or Horizon not be able to recruit at that level
Let's see how the MU team looks in 2 years - with Blue, Jones, Otule, Gardner, Jamil Wilson, Cadougan and Erik Williams having been in the program for 3-4 years. I like their chances for competing at a high level in the Big East.
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 10:25:51 PM
Let's see how the MU team looks in 2 years - with Blue, Jones, Otule, Gardner, Jamil Wilson, Cadougan and Erik Williams having been in the program for 3-4 years. I like their chances for competing at a high level in the Big East.
Yeah I agree lets take a look then. You are optimistic, fine. I think Otule has improved greatly over the last two months. Gardner has potential but needs to lose weight, get in condition. I would be optimistic with them. Williams has not been able to get off the bench in two years and there are no signs that he is getting better. Jones, none of us have seen enough of to make a judgement. Cadougan looks like he will be a good back-up point guard. Wilson averaged 4 points a game as a freshman at oregon. How much Blue improves will be a big key in how well this team does in the next two years. For me that doesn't add up to a lot of optimism. I also don't see a stubborn buzz making any adjustments over the season to defensive schemes and he seems over his head a lot. So there are differences of opinions on this board of what the future holds. But if anyone is on the glass half empty side of the argument you want to shout them down and cut off the discussion. Whatever floats your boat dude.
Quote from: silverback on February 15, 2011, 10:07:03 PM
There's no denying the fact or defending what we've seen in the last few games. Just awful, clueless, gutless basketball.
We ARE and will continue to be the worst coached team in the Big East. There are teams with less talent behind us in the standings. But given our players, they would also display higher basketball IQ and more hustle than us.
This is also the worst defensive squad seen at Marquette since at least Mike Deane's last couple of teams — or since Dukiet's era at the very least. The proud, tough defensive identity of Marquette basketball built by O'Neill and Crean has been so totally wiped out by this current rube's "paint touches, free throws, just outscore them" idiocy that I'm left dreaming of the day when this Three Stooges reject from Texas takes his sweet tea and barnyard wisdom on to his next victim.
Get upset and sanctimonious, if you choose. Drink the blue and gold kool-aid and pretend the future is bright. But the Buzz honeymoon is over regardless of how this season progresses. Local media is onto him, and so are fans who've been around long enough to know better. The calls for new leadership will begin now with whispers and build consistently now that Crean's properly developed players are gone.
I'll stay a fan and await the inevitable. There will come a new day of proper, well-developed Marquette recruits from major high schools instead of a mishmash of kids not talented or not bright enough to play at a major program out of high school. There will come a day when the high school players we do get are developed properly and put in a position to succeed. There will come a day when this overdressed Boo Radley with a clipboard leads another program to insignificance.
"See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve."
Buzz is worse even than Coach K, Calhoun, Huggins and Brey?
Those are the guys who should be fired. Average score in those four games was St. John's 84-69, so those four idiots gave up 4 points more to St. John's than Buzz Williams, the worst coach in the conferenence. Period.
Its always easy to see what we don't have than to see what we do have. The talent level and preparation on this team is really pretty good. We play in the toughest basketball conference in the USA against the best teams every night. No margin for error. One just needs to look at Wake Forest (and the firing of Dino) in regards to fans with unrealistic expectations getting major doses or reality now. Wake up before you really get to learn the meaning of "door mat".
Quote from: NCMUFan on February 17, 2011, 02:49:30 AM
Its always easy to see what we don't have than to see what we do have. The talent level and preparation on this team is really pretty good. We play in the toughest basketball conference in the USA against the best teams every night. No margin for error. One just needs to look at Wake Forest (and the firing of Dino) in regards to fans with unrealistic expectations getting major doses or reality now. Wake up before you really get to learn the meaning of "door mat".
You can add NC State to this list..after their fanbase criticized the hell out of Herb Sendik..and he chose to leave. Sidney Lowe hasn't quite gotten the job done.
Quote from: Ners on February 17, 2011, 08:50:05 AM
You can add NC State to this list..after their fanbase criticized the hell out of Herb Sendik..and he chose to leave. Sidney Lowe hasn't quite gotten the job done.
Lowe is a complete idiot. Down here in Raleigh it was funny how it seemed the main reason people hated Sendik was because they hated his "boring" offense and his "boring" personality. Never mind that he got them to the sweet 16 with hardly any talent.
Quote from: Ners on February 17, 2011, 08:50:05 AM
You can add NC State to this list..after their fanbase criticized the hell out of Herb Sendik..and he chose to leave. Sidney Lowe hasn't quite gotten the job done.
Lowe completely sucks. But do you honestly think NC State fans are longing for the days of Herb Sendek??? Ask Arizona State fans about what they think of Sendek...
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 17, 2011, 09:25:29 AM
Lowe completely sucks. But do you honestly think NC State fans are longing for the days of Herb Sendek??? Ask Arizona State fans about what they think of Sendek...
No, they are not longing for Sendek. They still hate him. And Sendek has been in a nose dive at Arizona State. But he did seem to have things figured out, at least ow to get to the NCAA every year, at NCST.
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 10:08:08 PM
It is also highly suspect to think MVC/Horizon coaches could recruit at a Big East required level.
No more suspect than thinking that a Sun Belt coach could recruit at a Big East required level.
In fact, it doesn't take long to develop a list of lower-level coaches who have been able to recruit at a high-major level
Thad Matta's Horizon and A10 experience is proving to be no detriment at Ohio State.
Bo Ryan's Horizon League coaching has resulted in decent success at Wisconsin
Bill Howland's Big Sky experience at Northern Arizona didn't seem to bother his recruiting at Pittsburgh.
Bill Self from the WAC recruited final four talent to Illinois
Matt Painter has recruited just fine at Purdue based on his MVC experience at SIU
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 10:08:08 PM
Would we really be happy with bringing in coaches like Brownell and Les??
No more so than most people were when MU hired an assistant with one year head coaching experience in the Sun Belt.
In fact, Les (with a recent Sweet 16 and three straight 20+ win seasons at Bradley) and Brownell (getting both UNC-Wilmington and Wright State to the NCAA) probably would have led to less grumbling than Buzz did.
And I would suggest that they would have easily duplicated Buzz's results.
Quote from: Ners on February 16, 2011, 10:08:08 PM
What have they accomplished? Why would Stallings leave Vandy for MU? What upside does MU offer that Vandy does not?
Maybe a 20% pay raise. More prestigious conference. After a decade taken Vandy as far as he could. Better facilities. Chance to become the dean of the conference when Boeheim, Calhoun and Calipari retire. I don't know--a host of possible reasons. We'll never know because he was never considered.
Quote from: Marquette84 on February 17, 2011, 02:01:07 PM
Maybe a 20% pay raise. More prestigious conference. After a decade taken Vandy as far as he could. Better facilities. Chance to become the dean of the conference when Boeheim, Calhoun and Calipari retire. I don't know--a host of possible reasons. We'll never know because he was never considered.
A bummer, too. He was in my top two for MU back in 2007 when speculation of Crean to Kentucky came up.
"If it's Crean {to Kentucky}, MU then has to hire a coach when we don't even have an Athletic Director....not good.
Majerus is the easy fall back and would at least hold things together short term, but is he willing to get out there and recruit? He better hire an incredible recruiter.
If not Majerus, I would love to make a play on Stallings who may finally feel the need to get out of Vanderbilt (especially with the SEC the way it is and Tennessee coming on strong in his own state)."
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 17, 2011, 02:45:41 PM
A bummer, too. He was in my top two for MU back in 2007 when speculation of Crean to Kentucky came up.
Who was on your list in April of 2008 when we actually needed a coach? After Bennett and Miller declined interviews, iirc the names mentioned were McKillop, Lowery, Grant and Keno Davis - all guys with less credentials than Stallings. If he had any interest I think MU would have at least given him a look.
For the first time since Mike Deane I am losing faith in a team & it's coach
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 17, 2011, 03:07:32 PM
Who was on your list in April of 2008 when we actually needed a coach? After Bennett and Miller declined interviews, iirc the names mentioned were McKillop, Lowery, Grant and Keno Davis - all guys with less credentials than Stallings. If he had any interest I think MU would have at least given him a look.
Wasn't there a poll back then? I remember I voted for Grant, then the "shocking" hire of Buzz happened shortly after.
Quote from: nyg on February 17, 2011, 03:32:56 PM
Wasn't there a poll back then? I remember I voted for Grant, then the "shocking" hire of Buzz happened shortly after.
Yup, looks like those that haven't already can still vote too. hah!
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8236.0
Quote from: Marquette84 on February 17, 2011, 02:01:07 PM
No more suspect than thinking that a Sun Belt coach could recruit at a Big East required level.
In fact, it doesn't take long to develop a list of lower-level coaches who have been able to recruit at a high-major level
Thad Matta's Horizon and A10 experience is proving to be no detriment at Ohio State.
Bo Ryan's Horizon League coaching has resulted in decent success at Wisconsin
Bill Howland's Big Sky experience at Northern Arizona didn't seem to bother his recruiting at Pittsburgh.
Bill Self from the WAC recruited final four talent to Illinois
Matt Painter has recruited just fine at Purdue based on his MVC experience at SIU
No more so than most people were when MU hired an assistant with one year head coaching experience in the Sun Belt.
In fact, Les (with a recent Sweet 16 and three straight 20+ win seasons at Bradley) and Brownell (getting both UNC-Wilmington and Wright State to the NCAA) probably would have led to less grumbling than Buzz did.
And I would suggest that they would have easily duplicated Buzz's results.
Maybe a 20% pay raise. More prestigious conference. After a decade taken Vandy as far as he could. Better facilities. Chance to become the dean of the conference when Boeheim, Calhoun and Calipari retire. I don't know--a host of possible reasons. We'll never know because he was never considered.
Decent points you make here - though I don't agree Stallings owuld hve jumped at the chance to come to MU - even if for more money. Whatever the case, one thing always rings true in your posts - for whatever reason...you are hell bent on criticizing Buzz. Why?
Quote from: Ners on February 17, 2011, 08:01:43 PM
Decent points you make here - though I don't agree Stallings owuld hve jumped at the chance to come to MU - even if for more money. Whatever the case, one thing always rings true in your posts - for whatever reason...you are hell bent on criticizing Buzz. Why?
What do you consider criticism?
Pointing out that Buzz came from the Sun Belt? That's not a criticism of Buzz--it's a criticism of YOU for making the stupid statement that a coach from a low level conference can't recruit Big East quality players.
For suggesting that Les or Brownell probably could have achieved the same results with Lazar, the Amigos, etc.? Sorry--that's not a criticism of Buzz either. Les took an arguably less talented team to a Sweet 16. Brownell did well with FAR less talented teams at Wright State and UNC-Wilmington.
For pointing out that Buzz wasn't the only coach in America willing to take the lousy MU job? Sorry--that's your revisionist history. The truth is that the MU administration was extremely high on Buzz, offering him 3rd (after Miller and Bennett), without even considering anyone else.
Too bad you haven't looked at the posts from around the time Buzz was hired, because I was the first to defend his hiring--one of the few to do so at the time. And I gave him credit each of the past two years for keeping MU at the level of play in the Big East that we were at each of our first three years in the conference.