I appreciate Vander's attitude towards coming in and playing defense, but man does he have a long way to go on the offensive end. It's amazing to see how much he struggles in BEAST play compared to how "good" he looked to start the season. It shows the level of play in the BEAST, especially considering we're this deep in the season. He needs to be able to give us a little bit of offense, at least enough to keep his defender honest, but neither he or Junior seemed to help us much off the bench. While I'm impressed with the improvements MU players make under Buzz from year-to-year, it is hard to watch so many of the BEAST teams have impact true freshmen and MU's are FAR from being BEAST ready.
Yes, I and a lot of people would've thought he'd perform better by now but a lot of us need to take a step back and realize he's still a freshman. Give him some time, in a few years this is going to be his team.
I think it's been an unexpectedly large jump for Vander. Aside from his jumper, which wasn't his strong suit coming in, the biggest adjustment has been going to the basket. He looks extremely timid taking the ball strong to the hoop when it presents itself. He'll go but as he is going up, he goes up weak and tends to bail half way up every time resulting in a block, turnover, or flat out ugly shot (couple of those 2day). It will come with time......I've got faith anyways. I recall Kemba Walker not being very good his freshman year and he was also highly touted. Hek, even Fab Melo, who was a top20 guy and everyone said was a can't miss, hasn't had a big impact on their team as I think he's averaging just 2pts 2rbds per contest
He's a joke on offense, and can't guard anybody on d. He doesn't deserve any minutes. Bring on Jamail Jones
If JJ was showing more in practice than Vander, he would be playing.
Quote from: tower912 on January 29, 2011, 08:26:24 PM
If JJ was showing more in practice than Vander, he would be playing.
Vander is playing well on D, and contributing on the glass. This experience (and the struggles on O) will help, as you see the other guys talking him through things.
Vander is playing out of position by necessity .... he's an Alpha Guard ala Arenas or Wade. When Buycks graduates he'll do just fine and play in position --- no worries. He's an explosive athlete who plays better with the ball in his hands.
I liked his drive down the lane that was called goal tending. I would like to see more of that. But his long air ball 3 in the first half was painful to watch. As were the multiple baseline drives that resulted in turnovers.
I did like on the 'cuse possesion immediately after one of the turnovers, he got back on D and had a nice stop on his man.
The offense will come. The game will slow down for him and he will be more effective.
I'm starting to think that while the U18 team was great for him to play in, it may have held back his offense. His shot needs to be completely retooled and there just wasn't enough time before practices started. He's got a lot of work to do on his jump shot over the offseason
The kid is pressing right now, forcing shots he shouldn't, trying to do things he can't. He'll be fine once he 1) develops a more consistent outside shot and 2) let's the offense come to him in the natural flow of the game rather than forcing things. He's really scuffling right now, but I think he's got too much talent to not be good eventually.
Bring on Jamail Jones? Nothing against Jamail, but it's not as if Vander is stealing minutes from him. They don't and can't play the same position or do the same things. Jamail will get his chance next year when he, Jamil and and Juan battle it out for JFB's minutes at the three.
For all of the complaining about Vander going on around here...I cant help but think how crazy this board would be if we had a freshman 7 footer that was rated in the Top 15 (#3 C overall) struggle the way Fab Melo is.
10.3 MPG
2.1 PPG (single game high of 9)
1.9 RPG (single game high of 7)
Some freshman play well...most freshman struggle. Vander will be fine.
I do think he'll be an excellent player when it's all said and done, but I have two knocks on Buzz (who I think it doing a great job) and one is that he doesn't develop freshmen well in their first year. My belief is that Vander will have a big summer, development wise, and be a contributing starter next year. It just seems odd that Buzz can't get a true freshman that contributes right away...it's going to become painfully obvious that if you're a top 100 recruit there's still a good chance you don't see the floor as a freshmen. Maybe Juan will break that trend, and hopefully it become painfully obvious that after a few years with Buzz players will develop to their full potential (give a little early on to gain more later on).
Quote from: GOMU1104 on January 29, 2011, 08:47:49 PM
Some freshman play well...most freshman struggle. Vander will be fine.
No one is really arguing that. Just wondering why "some freshman play well" (not ours under Buzz)...."most freshman struggle" (all freshmen under Buzz).
I really think Buzz just has "trust" (for lack of better words) issues with playing freshmen, and because he won't play them from day one, on day 90 they're behind others. A couple recruits could surely blow that theory away....I hope.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 29, 2011, 08:57:56 PM
No one is really arguing that. Just wondering why "some freshman play well" (not ours under Buzz)...."most freshman struggle" (all freshmen under Buzz).
I really think Buzz just has "trust" (for lack of better words) issues with playing freshmen, and because he won't play them from day one, on day 90 they're behind others. A couple recruits could surely blow that theory away....I hope.
Blue has played from day one...and look what it has gotten him. A guy who doesn't trust his shot one bit and is thinking too much on the court. Seriously, what do you want him to do?
Quote from: avid1010 on January 29, 2011, 08:57:56 PM
No one is really arguing that. Just wondering why "some freshman play well" (not ours under Buzz)...."most freshman struggle" (all freshmen under Buzz).
For the same reason that a 1st year auditor isn't expected to do the same work as a Sr. manager. For the same reason George Karl hates rookies. For the same reason that a rookie quota in sales is less than a 5 year producer. There a very few John Walls ( one or two per year ) compared to the hundreds of other struggling freshman.
Quote from: NYWarrior on January 29, 2011, 08:29:39 PM
Vander is playing out of position by necessity .... he's an Alpha Guard ala Arenas or Wade. When Buycks graduates he'll do just fine and play in position --- no worries. He's an explosive athlete who plays better with the ball in his hands.
good thing his daddy don't pull his ass from MU and go play for pearl's assistants ;D
Agree on the pressing. You could feel that 3 had a lot of adrenaline behind it. It's like in baseball when you hit a two-three hop chopper to the short stop because you are squeezing the bat so hard. It's like he feels that he has limited minutes so he has to capitalize.
Let's remember one other thing....we do not see Vander in practice nor in any other basketball situation except during the games. I would venture a guess that Buzz sees something we do not. I don't think it is earth-breaking news that a freshman guard is struggling during his first BEast season on offense. Right now it looks like his confidence on offense is all but gone and so he is pressing even harder. He is a great athlete, a solid defender and can get to the hoop. I trust his outside game, as well as his offense, will come around as this 18 year old kid continues to grow up. On the upside, he is getting experience (maybe in a frustrating way) and if he keeps his head and his heart toward continually learning (which is something Buzz praises him for), he could be really solid for us the next 3 years. Who knows what his game will be by the time he is a junior or senior....could meet all the promise and high expectations we have for him...or not....that is D-1 sports. For now, I am rooting for him to keep at it and not getting down on his playing time nor his play.
Blue's outside shot has been screwed up since his Senior year of high school. He's going to have to work extremely hard over the summer to get it straightened out.
Not sure if it's true or not, but I heard at school today from someone who would know that Blue has expressed a strong desire to play some PG next season.
Quote from: warriors1965 on January 29, 2011, 09:19:24 PM
Blue's outside shot has been screwed up since his Senior year of high school. He's going to have to work extremely hard over the summer to get it straightened out.
Not sure if it's true or not, but I heard at school today from someone who would know that Blue has expressed a strong desire to play some PG next season.
He still will need an outside shot at PG...but, he does have great athleticism, can handle the ball and sees the court well. I would think he could be as successful (or moreso) than DB at the point. Coudagon is gaining a lot of experience and looks like a solid distributing pg for the future, though.
Vander is going to be great for this team but he's got some work to do. He needs to get some more experience. I was really hoping today when DJO had to sit out with 4 fouls that Vander was going to spark and step up to be the guy. He's too much in his own head right now. Like murobrob said, Buzz sees his performance in practice and he must be showing his stuff there to be seeing the floor so much in the games. Maybe it's just stage fright. I'm still excited as hell that he plays for us and think once it clicks for him, he's going to be very dangerous.
Quote from: mu-rara on January 29, 2011, 09:04:26 PM
For the same reason that a 1st year auditor isn't expected to do the same work as a Sr. manager. For the same reason George Karl hates rookies. For the same reason that a rookie quota in sales is less than a 5 year producer. There a very few John Walls ( one or two per year ) compared to the hundreds of other struggling freshman.
I'm not looking for a John Wall....that's a dumb comparison. No one is saying Buzz should have a Wade every year...I don't know where you're pulling that out of.
I don't think it's normal that a coach go three years without recruiting a single freshman that contributes offensively in the freshman year. When TC had the three amigos come in, he gave them serious focus and PT from day one. I'm just questioning if some coaches strategically give freshmen more time/focus than Buzz...not even saying one way is right/wrong. For the same reason that some first year brokers out produce their seniors, for the same reason some first year salesmen crush their quota, for the reason that most coaches recruit a at least one freshman in three years that has an offensive impact on their team.
I don't care how screwed up his shot is, you don't miss an open three by two feet because of mechanics. You miss it because of what is going in between your ears.
Eventually he'll have a breakout game and relax/gain confidence. Hopefully it is this year.
-----
The same "expert analysis" about what is wrong with VB is pretty much the same "expert analysis" about what was wrong with DJO's shot earlier this year. That was right before DJO started shooting 3s better than 40%. Wrong about DJO.
These same "experts" also said that Junior would never ever be a good FT shooter (and wanted him locked in a gym shooting 100 FTs a day) and was too slow for the BE. Since these "experts" spoke, Junior FTs have been 12 for 15 (80%) in his last 5 games. Since the "experts" announced Junior was to slow for the BE, he became the best distributor of the basketball on this team.
These same "experts" were also unimpressed with Crowder's game through the first 10 games this season. They proclaimed they saw nothing from him that suggested he was a BE caliber player. Wrong about Crowder.
Why are the "experts" always wrong (and will eventually be wrong about VB)? Because they fail to recognize the importance of confidence and believing in yourself on the field of play. They all think its mechanical or a lack of effort. VB needs to believe he is a BE player and not think the ball is a piece of nuclear waste. Once this happens, we'll have yet another in a very long list of wrong "expert" analysis about this team.
Quote from: Untucked on January 29, 2011, 08:24:07 PM
He's a joke on offense, and can't guard anybody on d. He doesn't deserve any minutes. Bring on Jamail Jones
Their is a joke in the NFL that the most popular player on a struggling team is the back-up QB.
Same joke in college Bball ... the most popular guy on a struggling team is the freshman shooter that never plays.
Again, I don't think anyone is writing Vander off...by any means. I did find it interesting that Homer/Mac talked about how he fixed his free-throw mechanics and is now shooting them much better. They felt that would eventually transfer to his 3 point shot...talked about concerns over him jumping too high on his shot, etc. If they fixed his free-throw it's more than what's going on between his ears. Not saying he isn't struggling mentally...because his lack of confidence with the ball in his hands is obvious, but there's a reason he doesn't trust his jumper. He'll get going, I have no doubt. If someone like E-Will can improve his shot as much as he did in one summer, I expect the same or more from Vander. Just wish we were seeing Vander get better as the year progresses, is that ridiculous to question?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 29, 2011, 10:11:03 PM
I don't care how screwed up his shot is, you don't miss an open three by two feet because of mechanics. You miss it because of what is going in between your ears.
Eventually he'll have a breakout game and relax/gain confidence. Hopefully it is this year.
-----
The same "expert analysis" about what is wrong with VB is pretty much the same "expert analysis" about what was wrong with DJO's shot earlier this year. That was right before DJO started shooting 3s better than 40%. Wrong about DJO.
These same "experts" also said that Junior would never ever be a good FT shooter (and wanted him locked in a gym shooting 100 FTs a day) and was too slow for the BE. Since these "experts" spoke, Junior FTs have been 12 for 15 (80%) in his last 5 games. Since the "experts" announced Junior was to slow for the BE, he became the best distributor of the basketball on this team.
These same "experts" were also unimpressed with Crowder's game through the first 10 games this season. They proclaimed they saw nothing from him that suggested he was a BE caliber player. Wrong about Crowder.
Why are the "experts" always wrong (and will eventually be wrong about VB)? Because they fail to recognize the importance of confidence and believing in yourself on the field of play. They all think its mechanical or a lack of effort. VB needs to believe he is a BE player and not think the ball is a piece of nuclear waste. Once this happens, we'll have yet another in a very long list of wrong "expert" analysis about this team.
Kid needs some confidence. May not happen this year, but once he gets it, he will be a great player.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 29, 2011, 10:18:15 PM
Again, I don't think anyone is writing Vander off...by any means.
Warriors65 is writing him off
Quote from: warriors1965 on January 29, 2011, 09:19:24 PM
Blue's outside shot has been screwed up since his Senior year of high school. He's going to have to work extremely hard over the summer to get it straightened out.
Not sure if it's true or not, but I heard at school today from someone who would know that Blue has expressed a strong desire to play some PG next season.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 29, 2011, 10:39:12 PM
Warriors65 is writing him off
His thoughts are similar to mine, yet I feel like Vander is going to be a great player for MU in the future...just not really seeing it this year on any kind of a consistent basis.
Compare Vander to BYU's Jimmer Fredette in his Freshman Year.
Other than FT%, Vander's numbers look a lot like Jimmer's.
I'm sure the BYU message boards "experts" were complaining about Jimmer 3 years ago.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jimmer-fredette&jimmer-fredette=2007-2008&p1=vander-blue
Add:
Jimmer's Freshman year he played 647 minutes (18.5/game). In that time he took 128 3pt ATT and 204 FG ATT. That totals 332 shots or one every 116 seconds.
He was a reserve playing 18.5 minutes a game. Did he shoot every other possession, or 50% of the BYU's possessions, when he was on the floor?
Unbelievable.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 29, 2011, 10:06:46 PM
I'm not looking for a John Wall....that's a dumb comparison. No one is saying Buzz should have a Wade every year...I don't know where you're pulling that out of.
I don't think it's normal that a coach go three years without recruiting a single freshman that contributes offensively in the freshman year. When TC had the three amigos come in, he gave them serious focus and PT from day one. I'm just questioning if some coaches strategically give freshmen more time/focus than Buzz...not even saying one way is right/wrong. For the same reason that some first year brokers out produce their seniors, for the same reason some first year salesmen crush their quota, for the reason that most coaches recruit a at least one freshman in three years that has an offensive impact on their team.
First year brokers that outproduce veterans, first year salespeople who crush it = John Wall.... They are very hard to find.
Vander sees the floor because he plays defense. That was always what was going to get him on the floor. Vander will become a better offensive player. He has shown flashes getting to the hole. He is a hard worker...he'll develop a shot.
Quote from: warriors1965 on January 29, 2011, 09:19:24 PM
Blue's outside shot has been screwed up since his Senior year of high school. He's going to have to work extremely hard over the summer to get it straightened out.
Not sure if it's true or not, but I heard at school today from someone who would know that Blue has expressed a strong desire to play some PG next season.
1. Vander just has terrible shooting mechanics and that's not something that can be quickly fixed on the fly during a season where practice time is more limited to team practicing vs individual coaching. He's going to have to spend a lot of time in the summer fixing his jumper in the gym via tons of shot taking.
2. His lack of a jump shot also hurts his ability to penetrate the paint. Big East coaches have scouting reports for each MU player and they can see that Vander can't shoot well from the perimeter, thus defenders can sag off him which in turn makes it tougher for Vander to beat defenders off the dribble.
3. Vander may want to play some PG, but right now at least, he doesn't have the top notch ball handling abilities needed to play the point effectively. Hell, Buycks isn't a great ball handler either, but he's better at it than Vander and Buycks has turnover issues of his own.
As others mentioned, tons of highly recruited freshman each year come on to college teams expecting to have huge impacts right away, but for various reasons, struggle to be more than just a role player. Vander isn't alone in that. In fact, it's the freshman who play great right away that are the more exceptions, not the norm. Fans though get so wrapped up in the whole recruiting process that if they see a kid ranked in the top 50-75, many of these fans then just expect near immediate high level production. When the production instead is fairly limited, out comes the what the hell is wrong talk.
Freshman guards who can't shoot well are always going to be limited offensively.
The issues with Vander stem from the fact that he was hyped as the best HS player we've had in years. Better than the Amigos. Better than Diener. Better than Hayward. Better than DJO and Buycks. Better than Merritt, Blankson, Logterman, Miller, Wardle, Henry, etc. etc. etc.
At the time he signed, Rosiak reported he was the highest rated player since the McGuire era--eventually correcting himself and admitting that Trotter and Rivers were higher. But that gives you some idea of what people thought about Blue when he signed.
People always say "well, you can't compare an ordinary freshman to the Amigos--they were special players". Well, Vander was supposed to be just as special, if not more so. People thought he'd start from day one.
He might get there someday, and probably will eventually. Where I think there's disappointment is that he isn't there yet, and its taking him longer than some other first year players to find his groove.
Quote from: Untucked on January 29, 2011, 08:24:07 PM
He's a joke on offense, and can't guard anybody on d. He doesn't deserve any minutes. Bring on Jamail Jones
He has been great defensively. Not only does he steal the ball three times as often as DJO, but he has been a lock down defender. Agree with those who say we need at least a little offense from him, but he has been one of the few brightspots in many of the defensive struggles.
Let's not forget that blue has to SoG's for a reason. It takes a cockiness to shoot threes constantly cause he is going to make one, that may be important.
watching him in warm-ups, yea his shot looks McGuire bad, but he makes them. The kid needs to shoot just like DJO needed to shoot (ok not the same).
I hate to bring it up, but how often does our rival to the west, who most concede is a very good coach, get an impact freshman? Gasser is getting minutes by default, but other than a couple of good games, he hasn't done a lot. Wasn't MU basketball's patron saint that said something along the lines of....the best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores? Would you rather have Calipari here who magically gets impact freshman only to see them leave for the league after a year? Blue's numbers compare to Fredette's and Walker's as freshmen. And yet some want to use him as evidence that Buzz sucks. Sounds like some just have an agenda. The kid will be fine.
Air balls a 3, dribbles to the baseline and throws the pass away, throughs up some crazy looking shot under the basket.
Vander Blue needs the game to just come to him, it's like he is pressing out on the floor.
Compare Vander to Harrison Barnes, the #1 high school player last year.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=vander-blue&p2=jimmer-fredette&p3=harrison-barnes&remove=jimmer-fredette
Barnes has similar numbers to VB. Both are doing better than last year Parade AA Fab Melo of Syracuse (who looked simply awful yesterday).
In previous posts, VB's freshman production was shown to be similar to Deiner, Novak, Hayward and Wes. VB's freshman numbers are also similar to Kimba Walker's freshman numbers.
Point is many many highly touted freshman struggle like VB is now and go on the have awesome Junior and Senior years. It so common that it should almost be expect int he case of VB.
El Duderino Are VBs mechanics off because he has bad mechanics or no confidence causing him to shoot the ball all wrong? It's a big difference. If his problems are mental, forcing him to change everything mechanically as you suggest will make him worse. Let him get confidence and see if his stoke returns. If not, then work on the mechanics.
Not to be a broken record, but this is exactly the same wrong advice that many said Junior needed to do with his FT shooting this summer (remember a 100 FTs a day?). Then Junior got confident and without changing his mechanics, Junior has shot 80% of his FTs in the last 5 games.
Here's the problem, you all look at these guys like this is sixth grade basketball and think it's all about teaching them the basic fundamentals of the game. They know the fundamentals. At this level is is about playing as a team and having the confidence to believe you belong and want the ball in crunch time.
Quote from: tower912 on January 30, 2011, 06:58:18 AMI hate to bring it up, but how often does our rival to the west, who most concede is a very good coach, get an impact freshman? Gasser is getting minutes by default, but other than a couple of good games, he hasn't done a lot. Wasn't MU basketball's patron saint that said something along the lines of....the best thing about freshman is that they become sophomores? Would you rather have Calipari here who magically gets impact freshman only to see them leave for the league after a year? Blue's numbers compare to Fredette's and Walker's as freshmen. And yet some want to use him as evidence that Buzz sucks. Sounds like some just have an agenda. The kid will be fine.
+1
I think it's a bit surprising that so many expected him to start, I didn't think he would until maybe the middle of Big East play, and even that was no lock. We've got two starting seniors and two starting juniors. Admittedly all JUCO transfers, but that's still higher-level experience than Blue came in with. And no matter how good he is, Blue's not going to start at center.
Bottom line, we don't need him to be the man most nights. We have other guys who can take that role. Let him grow into it. There's plenty of time for him. And besides, he's already a ready and willing defender. How often to the big recruits just want to score and be the man? Seems to me having a kid who's good on that end is more valuable than someone who just wants to score, simply because it's a rare commodity these days.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 30, 2011, 08:25:33 AM
El Duderino Are VBs mechanics off because he has bad mechanics or no confidence causing him to shoot the ball all wrong? It's a big difference. If his problems are mental, forcing him to change everything mechanically as you suggest will make him worse. Let him get confidence and see if his stoke returns. If not, then work on the mechanics.
Vander's mechanics are off because of bad mechanics. He shoots the ball off the heel of his palm, his release point is to the right of and underneath his chin, his elbow flies outside, and he hitches and tends to shoot when he's already on the way back down. Not to mention that he practically shoots his FTs from his chest. He needs to get his R hand up above his forehead, his elbow in, the ball on his fingertips, and shooting in the rising part of his jump. It will come and I think he'll be a great player for us, but it needs a LOT of work.
It's troubling to watch Vander play this season. It seems that his confidence level is going south instead of north. Expected Vander to play at the level he was rated coming in. His defense is nothing great (very few if any steals); and his offense has become a joke. It makes you wonder what is going on in practice. With proper coaching, he should be getting better instead of worse. He seems to be following in the foot steps of Cadugan. Thought coming he would be more like Marquette legend, Dean Memminger, an ultra quick slasher.
Quote from: msbjim on January 30, 2011, 09:10:15 AM
It's troubling to watch Vander play this season. It seems that his confidence level is going south instead of north. Expected Vander to play at the level he was rated coming in. His defense is nothing great (very few if any steals); and his offense has become a joke. It makes you wonder what is going on in practice. With proper coaching, he should be getting better instead of worse. He seems to be following in the foot steps of Cadugan. Thought coming he would be more like Marquette legend, Dean Memminger, an ultra quick slasher.
Do you make this up or just not watch the games?
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/269/marquette-golden-eagles
Vander is third on the team with 26 steals while playing about 150 minutes less than Butler (31) and Crowder (30). DJO has 13 and Buycks has 25 and both have way more minutes the VB.
Regarding Cadougan, here's a news flash, he tore is Achilles last year and missed 3/4 of the season. It wasn't until this fall that he was fully healed and past it.
Did you expect a Memminger type performance in a cast?
Quote from: msbjim on January 30, 2011, 09:10:15 AM
It's troubling to watch Vander play this season. It seems that his confidence level is going south instead of north. Expected Vander to play at the level he was rated coming in. His defense is nothing great (very few if any steals); and his offense has become a joke. It makes you wonder what is going on in practice. With proper coaching, he should be getting better instead of worse. He seems to be following in the foot steps of Cadugan. Thought coming he would be more like Marquette legend, Dean Memminger, an ultra quick slasher.
91, have you seen VB in practice? Is that the way he shoots in practice? And if he shoots that way in practice, how does he do? I thought I read that he hits EVERYTHING in practice which is why Buzz keeps running him out there. We know he shot very well this past summer on the U18 team.
Luciano Pavarotti once said something to the effect of ... anyone can perform when no one is looking. The trick is being able to perform when one's sphincter is so tight it hurts.
I fear that if you take someone with a confidence problem and pile on changing his mechanics, you risk making him permanently worse.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 29, 2011, 10:55:07 PM
Compare Vander to BYU's Jimmer Fredette in his Freshman Year.
Unbelievable.
What's unbelievable is that you keep going to these ridiculous comparisons. Vander will be just fine, and anyone that knows anything about basketball realizes that. The question is why can't Buzz get a true freshman to have an offensive impact on a team in his three years at MU? I was hoping for some decent debate about different coaches having different philosophies on how they bring freshman along as the season progresses, but instead you come back with Walla nd Fredette comparisons? Really? What the heck does that prove. I can show you a thousand freshmen that have Fredette numbers as freshmen and never progress into being even average D1 players. It proves nothing, and has nothing to do with the conversation.
Simply put, is seems odd that Buzz hasn't had a freshman in 3 years that shows much of anything on the offensive end in his freshman year and why is this the case? My thought is that he doesn't trust any freshman, so he tends to balance his classes with JUCO kids, and he brings his freshmen along slowly, not asking them to do much outside of defesne, rebounding, and not turning the ball over. It's a different philosophy than someone like Calhoun and that's why he has freshmen that are really starting to come on strong, while Vander looks to be stuck in his progress.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 30, 2011, 09:31:25 AM
Simply put, is seems odd that Buzz hasn't had a freshman in 3 years that shows much of anything on the offensive end in his freshman year and why is this the case?
What Freshman are you referring to?
2008 = Outle (hurt)
2009 = Ewill, Jmay (transfer), Mbao (transfer), Junior (hurt)
2010 = VB, Smith (transfer) J Jones, Devante
Other than VB, what unhurt non-transferred Freshman were you expecting big things from?
Prior to this year it seems their was only one possible candidate, Ewill. Are you basing your opinion in Buzz's ability to develop Freshman solely on the progress of Ewill?
Regarding JMay ... Should we praise Buzz because Freshman JMay looked much better than Sophomore JMay under Bruce Pearl?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 30, 2011, 09:44:31 AM
What Freshman are you referring to?
2008 = Outle (hurt)
2009 = Ewill, Jmay (transfer), Mbao (transfer), Junior (hurt)
2010 = VB, Smith (transfer) J Jones, Devante
Other than VB, what unhurt non-transferred Freshman were you expecting big things from? I would expect in three years that Buzz recruit one freshman that had an offensive impact on the team. Are you stating that you don't expect this to happen? Not one in three years?
Prior to this year it seems their was only one possible candidate, Ewill. Are you basing your opinion in Buzz's ability to develop Freshman solely on the progress of Ewill? Why prior to this year? The fact that Buzz has recruited so many JUCO players, few true freshmen, and the ones that didn't transfer (E-Will, VB, JJ and DG) haven't been able to help the team offensively in BEAST play seems to show his philosophy with freshmen.
Regarding JMay ... Should we praise Buzz because Freshman JMay looked much better than Sophomore JMay under Bruce Pearl? So you're saying Buzz can develop players that transfer?
Thank you for making my point for me...wow!
Quote from: avid1010 on January 30, 2011, 10:04:36 AM
I would expect in three years that Buzz recruit one freshman that had an offensive impact on the team. Are you stating that you don't expect this to happen? Not one in three years?
And, if I concede your point, what did you win? That in a period of transition, Buzz recruited a bunch of high impact Jucos? Why is the standard of a Freshman that make an impact their Freshman year on a bunch of ranked teams (2008 and 2009) so important? What I care about is what they develop into.
ALMOST EVERY SINGLE POST IN THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS AS PATHETIC AS IT IS IGNORANT
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 30, 2011, 10:17:31 AM
And, if I concede your point, what did you win? That in a period of transition, Buzz recruited a bunch of high impact Jucos? Why is the standard of a Freshman that make an impact their Freshman year on a bunch of ranked teams (2008 and 2009) so important? What I care about is what they develop into.
Not trying to win anything...get a life. I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so. You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about. Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen. Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 30, 2011, 09:31:25 AM
What's unbelievable is that you keep going to these ridiculous comparisons. Vander will be just fine, and anyone that knows anything about basketball realizes that. The question is why can't Buzz get a true freshman to have an offensive impact on a team in his three years at MU? I was hoping for some decent debate about different coaches having different philosophies on how they bring freshman along as the season progresses, but instead you come back with Walla nd Fredette comparisons? Really? What the heck does that prove. I can show you a thousand freshmen that have Fredette numbers as freshmen and never progress into being even average D1 players. It proves nothing, and has nothing to do with the conversation.
Simply put, is seems odd that Buzz hasn't had a freshman in 3 years that shows much of anything on the offensive end in his freshman year and why is this the case? My thought is that he doesn't trust any freshman, so he tends to balance his classes with JUCO kids, and he brings his freshmen along slowly, not asking them to do much outside of defesne, rebounding, and not turning the ball over. It's a different philosophy than someone like Calhoun and that's why he has freshmen that are really starting to come on strong, while Vander looks to be stuck in his progress.
I'm not sure it's a fair question, given that there have only been two freshman over those three years who've had a chance to have an impact. Maymon, Smith, Mbao, Cadougan and Otule, for either transfer or injury reasons, didn't have a chance to have an impact as freshmen. Jones is stuck behind the team's best all around player (who averages 34 mpg) and hasn't - to few people's surprise - had the opportunity to make an impact.
That leaves Blue and Erik Williams. And in Blue's case, I'm interested in knowing how you define "impact." Some might suggest that a kid playing 23 mpg (including 10 starts) and who's become the team's best perimeter defender has had an impact. Perhaps not a large impact, and probably not the expected impact, but it's not as if he's a small step above Rob Frozena when it comes to contributing.
Anyhow, I guess what I'm saying here is that you're declaring a trend - that Buzz Williams, either by choice or poor coaching, cannot get a true freshman to have an impact - when, in reality, the sample size of two players over three years is far too small to make such a declaration.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 30, 2011, 10:54:38 AM
Not trying to win anything...get a life. I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so. You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about. Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen. Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.
What I was trying to say is the sample size of Freshman is so small that you cannot draw any conclusions either way. Essentially the entire sample size is Vander. Cannot draw any conclusions from a sample of one.
2008 and 2009 were ranked teams with established players. Unless we had a top 50 or top 30 buy (like Vander) no Freshman was going to play. And the one's we had were either injured, transferred or coming in not ranked high enough to expect to see action.
So the answer to your question is we have to wait a few more years and see a lot more than Vander to draw any conclusions.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 30, 2011, 10:54:38 AM
Not trying to win anything...get a life. I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so. You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about. Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen. Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.
Well if you are looking for an intelligent conversation about the above, why don't you provide a list of coaches and how they use freshman to get us started. Once you realize that this is impossible, I think you will understand why this thread is going the way it is.
Vander will be fine, maybe next year or the year after. He does not know when to shoot right now and I am sure an airball
on his first shot shocks him as much as MU fans. Besides the 2 freshman on UConn, I am sure other freshman are in the same
situation as MU. West Virginia, Georgetown, Villanova, Syracuse, Louisville, and most others do not have an impact freshman in
there rotation. You need upper classman. That is why a JC transfer like Jae really works. Next year Mu brings in a transfer who
will take Butlers position, again another upper classman. Next years biggest issue might be the point. Cadougan will have to learn
how to shot shoots other than lay-ups.
Quote from: jfmu on January 29, 2011, 08:31:57 PM
I'm starting to think that while the U18 team was great for him to play in, it may have held back his offense. His shot needs to be completely retooled and there just wasn't enough time before practices started. He's got a lot of work to do on his jump shot over the offseason
You would know he could not shoot, if you watched the high school state championship game last year. He tried but could not take over that game and they got blown out. Vander is quick, but he is playing against players in the Big East that are also quick.
It is time that some start realizing he was vastly overrated. He still will develop into a good player--we all hope, but he is nowhere near his reputation. It is my understanding he averaged about 17 ppg his senior year in HS. He also was not even Mr. Basketball in Wisc., so why so many are frustrated by what is happening now is beyond me.
Face it, he was overrated coming out of HS and needs a lot of work. He will need to devlop his shot and defensive skills better. He cerrtainly can do it, but right now he is lost out there.
Remember one of Al McGuire's old sayings--the best thing about Freshman is that they become Sophs.
Was Vander overrated, or did we all just build up unrealistic expectations for him? I for one have been pleased with how he's come along this, particularly when comparing his performance relative to other top tier recruits not names Jared Sullinger.
My view is that we all built up his reputation past anything that he could be expected to accomplish, and he's probably right where he should be, especially since his high ranking was based much more upon his athletic ability, tenacious defense, and upside vs. his offensive game.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 30, 2011, 12:15:35 PM
It is time that some start realizing he was vastly overrated. He still will develop into a good player--we all hope, but he is nowhere near his reputation. It is my understanding he averaged about 17 ppg his senior year in HS. He also was not even Mr. Basketball in Wisc., so why so many are frustrated by what is happening now is beyond me.
Face it, he was overrated coming out of HS and needs a lot of work. He will need to devlop his shot and defensive skills better. He cerrtainly can do it, but right now he is lost out there.
Remember one of Al McGuire's old sayings--the best thing about Freshman is that they become Sophs.
Actually, I would say he exceeded my expecations in the non-conference portion of the schedule. Now he has underperformed the Big East portion. I just have a feeling that he will have a good last 6-7 games to end the season. I know he isn't playing great right now, but there is too much talent there not to turn it around.
And I do believe he will be very good next year. A lock for the most improved player along with Gardner.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 30, 2011, 10:54:38 AM
Not trying to win anything...get a life. I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so. You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about. Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen. Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.
Coaches don't expect much from freshman, unless they are Harrison Barnes, John Wall or a few others. Some develop faster, and overachieve, earning PT.
I'm not sure what you were expecting from VB. Did you ever see him play in HS? He was great because he was a tremendous athlete. He played very good defense, and got to the hoop. He had a lousy shot then. I'm sure that he knew he had to work on shooting, and I'm sure Buzz and the MU assistants all knew it and told him so. He has great upside becuase of his athleticism. You I expect a very good Marquette career (He kinda reminds me of Tony Smith, but Tony played a lot as a freshman because he played on a much less talented team).
TJ Bray was Mr. Basketball last year because he had a great all around game....and he has played in most or all of Princeton's games as a freshman. He may have more impact as a freshman, but not nearly the upside athletically. (Confession: love TJ Bray as a kid and player...not quick or athletic enough to play BE hoops)
Point: VB is not Wall or Harrison (the only type who are impact players as freshman)...he will be a quality player for MU...He is developing as the vast majority of freshman do...and coaches never want to depend on freshman, but will play them if it is earned. VB has earned PT on defense.
Regarding Harrison Barnes. He is not close to John Wall. (which is one of the reason UNC has not been ranked in February for the second year in a row).
See his stats versus Vander, only marginally better at this point.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=vander-blue&p2=jimmer-fredette&p3=harrison-barnes&remove=jimmer-fredette
Barnes is NOT lighting the world on fire.
Vander has all of the tools needed to be impact player down the road. Obviously his confidence and his teammates confidence in him is not high right now. You can teach his talent and improved shooting will happen. To small degree he reminds me of Doc Rivers while he was at MU. Doc had great talent, great defender and poor shooting touch eary in his career. If you watched Doc you knew he was going to be really good and VB has same look to me.
If Blue's outside shot had deteriorated so badly by his senior year of HS, why didn't he work out the kinks last summer?
This is nowhere close to the DJO situation since he had plenty of success shooting the ball last season.
I know everyone seems to think an outside shot is easy to fix, but it's not when it's been allowed to get incredibly screwed up mechanically for years.
Quote from: warriors1965 on January 30, 2011, 04:40:35 PM
I know everyone seems to think an outside shot is easy to fix, but it's not when it's been allowed to get incredibly screwed up mechanically for years.
Wrong. A jump shot is very easily fixed through practice, coaching and repetition. However, it will not be fixed in season, as time needs to be spent elsewhere. You cannot fix Vander's awareness and vision.
For example, see McNeal, Jerel.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 30, 2011, 10:54:38 AM
Not trying to win anything...get a life. I was looking for intelligent conversation on how different coaches use freshmen, and why they do so. You'll have a very hard time finding many posts from me being critical of Buzz or any MU player...that wasn't what this was about. Just trying to look at different styles and understand why Buzz does what he does with freshmen. Unfortunately that no longer happens on this board.
I don't think the issue is how Buzz uses freshmen. Buzz has more options at his disposal - experienced college basketball players. Unless they are one and done types, freshmen simply don't see a lot of playing time in major college basketball, and when they see the floor they generally struggle.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 30, 2011, 04:16:34 PM
Regarding Harrison Barnes. He is not close to John Wall. (which is one of the reason UNC has not been ranked in February for the second year in a row).
See his stats versus Vander, only marginally better at this point.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=vander-blue&p2=jimmer-fredette&p3=harrison-barnes&remove=jimmer-fredette
Barnes is NOT lighting the world on fire.
I would argue that his stats are more than marginally better. So Far, on average he is not lighting the world on fire, but he has had some big games. He is closer to a finished product than Vander at this point.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 29, 2011, 10:11:03 PM
The same "expert analysis" about what is wrong with VB is pretty much the same "expert analysis" about what was wrong with DJO's shot earlier this year.
The big difference is that Blue's shot "looks" awful. It looks terrible leaving his hand. Like too much palm and not enough fingertips or something. DJO has a nice stroke, so you feel like when he's shooting poorly he's going to come out of it. When you see something that looks like it is going to be terrible, and subsequently is terrible, it's natural to assume the two are related.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 31, 2011, 10:30:48 AM
The big difference is that Blue's shot "looks" awful. It looks terrible leaving his hand. Like too much palm and not enough fingertips or something. DJO has a nice stroke, so you feel like when he's shooting poorly he's going to come out of it. When you see something that looks like it is going to be terrible, and subsequently is terrible, it's natural too assume the two are related.
Vander's shot starts at his chest. His release is too far in front of his head, and not above his head.