Had one hell of a game from start to finish. Has now cemented himself for now as my favorite player to watch on the team.
Think Jae just seized the "Leader" role on this team that so many have been complaining about lacking. Jae embodies MU basketball. Flat out tough.
Looks like he's taking it from Jimmy. It was Jimmy's team at the beginning of the season, but he's been quiet the last few game. Love watching Jae. Great player with a lot of passion too.
I love seeing Crowder have big days, if for no other reason than because he's become my girlfriend's favorite player. She got a big grin when she saw me online and the pic of Jae as the Stud of the game today. Keep it up, big(ish) man!
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on January 01, 2011, 03:17:18 PM
Looks like he's taking it from Jimmy. It was Jimmy's team at the beginning of the season, but he's been quiet the last few game. Love watching Jae. Great player with a lot of passion too.
Crowder played great, but today's game is why Butler is such an invaluable player on this team. He NEVER forces anything. Ever. He was not scoring at all early and continued to plug away, getting rebounds and making nice passes. He made one incredible pass in the lane in the first half. He's the smartest player on this team.
As good of a Big East debut as you'll find anywhere. Maybe still topped by Novak lol
JFB lead the team in assists today...second in rebounds...only one turnover. He consistently scores in double didgits, and may not have the game to be a constant 20+ ppg scorer, but you can be a leader and be an invaluable player in many ways besides scoring.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 01, 2011, 03:30:31 PM
Crowder played great, but today's game is why Butler is such an invaluable player on this team. He NEVER forces anything. Ever. He was not scoring at all early and continued to plug away, getting rebounds and making nice passes. He made one incredible pass in the lane in the first half. He's the smartest player on this team.
Agree 100%. JFB is a coach's dream. He is smart and rarely, rarely makes mistakes or forces a shot.
Jae Crowder played a great game. He played all out and definitely leads the team with his strength and all out effort. Crowder will lead the team more and more as the season goes on. What a great recruit.
I don't recall the last time MU had a player with such great hands & touch around the hoop (possibly edging out R.Jackson). Very rarely juggles a pass, and finishes with a very high percentage.
Starting to love his patented two handed back board slap on a lay-up/putback.
Incredible game by Jae.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 01, 2011, 03:30:31 PM
Crowder played great, but today's game is why Butler is such an invaluable player on this team. He NEVER forces anything. Ever. He was not scoring at all early and continued to plug away, getting rebounds and making nice passes. He made one incredible pass in the lane in the first half. He's the smartest player on this team.
Butler is an outstanding team player. But just like last year, he seems to be the role player on our team. Last year it was Hayward and sometimes DJO. This year Crowder has replaced Zar. The bottom line is that Jae was indispensable today. Without him the game isn't even close. Jae makes plays. Butler waits for opportunities to arise.
Quote from: DaCoach on January 01, 2011, 07:15:02 PM
Butler is an outstanding team player. But just like last year, he seems to be the role player on our team. Last year it was Hayward and sometimes DJO. This year Crowder has replaced Zar. The bottom line is that Jae was indispensable today. Without him the game isn't even close. Jae makes plays. Butler waits for opportunities to arise.
Exactly. Great finds to Jae inside during the game, but he was the difference maker along with DJO this morning.
Jae came into Centercourt after the game... sat down at the table next to us. Happily honored a couple "future Warriors" requests for pictures and thanked every one of the 20+ people who came up to congratulate him. Great guy, very friendly, and looked like he was on top of the world.
It's impossible to not like this guy.
Did he tip a few with you?
After the UWM game I referred to Crowder as "disappointingly soft". Boy has he made me eat my words.
I think we found our leader.
Before all you guys give Crowder the John Wooden Award I'd like you to take a look at the last 30 seconds of the Vandy game. Crowder lost the game for MU. His man was the inbounder, once he threw the ball in Crowder turned his back on him and never looked at him again and with 4.1 seconds to play Crowder's man made the game winning layup. This is not the first time. He regularly leaves his man and is caught out of position. For everyone who says Gardner can't play because he is a defensive liability, if the same rules applied to Crowder, he would not get much time either. I like Crowder and think his playing time is fine but I also think we are a better overall team when we have a big man, who can catch a pass, inside.
Crowder made a bad play, though I thought it looked like a switch. Gardner can't guard Buzz.
Don't disagree with Denver. Crowder missed few defensive plays in the Vandy game. However, he showed much more intensity in the West Virginia game. He is a bigger 6'6" than Hayward. If he continue to be more aggressive on defense he can be great.
Um -I have to say that if we want to discuss how many times MU players have missed defensive assignments, I think this thread would go on for a couple hundred pages. To call out Crowder for the Vandy loss is crazy. If they are all missing defensive assignments, I like one of them to be a guy who could also score 29 points once in a while.
I was trying to make a couple of points (probably not well). One, yes I like Crowder, but he has defensive lapses, one of which allowed an open layup at the end of the Vandy game. Two, MU is a better overall team when Gardner is playing. He is averaging almost a point a minute (.68 ppm) the highest average on our team. His presence down low causes defenses to help and gives our guards better outside shots. He catches passes inside and can pass very well. Finally, his defense may not be great but with the exception of JB and maybe Vander he is not that bad. I think to be a NCAA team we need his offensive scoring ability.
Quote from: denverMU on January 02, 2011, 04:10:59 PM
I was trying to make a couple of points (probably not well). One, yes I like Crowder, but he has defensive lapses, one of which allowed an open layup at the end of the Vandy game. Two, MU is a better overall team when Gardner is playing. He is averaging almost a point a minute (.68 ppm) the highest average on our team. His presence down low causes defenses to help and gives our guards better outside shots. He catches passes inside and can pass very well. Finally, his defense may not be great but with the exception of JB and maybe Vander he is not that bad. I think to be a NCAA team we need his offensive scoring ability.
His offense isn't nearly as effective if he is a big liability on defense. While Jae has made a few mistakes (like everyone), it is clear Gardner isn't ready on the defensive end yet, and needs to improve his rebounding.
He is not "a big liability on defense". Just because a bunch of people on this site write it, does not make it so. Even if his defense is terrible it does not outweigh the offense for him and his teammates. Please give me some stats which show how much he hurts us defensively. As far as rebounding he is tied with Crowder with most rebounds per minute played.
Quote from: denverMU on January 02, 2011, 04:55:54 PM
He is not "a big liability on defense". Just because a bunch of people on this site write it, does not make it so. Even if his defense is terrible it does not outweigh the offense for him and his teammates. Please give me some stats which show how much he hurts us defensively. As far as rebounding he is tied with Crowder with most rebounds per minute played.
Seriously, go back and watch some of our games. Like Vanderbilt. There's a reason he only played 3 minutes. He was absolutely abused on the defensive boards. He gave up 3 or 4 offensive rebounds in the short time he played. Granted, Vandy has two athletic and very mobile big guys which not all teams have, but he CANNOT match up defensively with guys like that yet. It's blantantly obvious if you just watch the game. If the matchups are favorable for him I'm sure he will play, but against teams that have mobile bigs he should sit.
I will go back and look at the Vandy game and get back to you. I asked for actual stats/facts. I know this is just a fan board made up mostly of opinions but sometimes it's helpful back up your opinions. Gardner gets as many or more rebounds per minute than anyone on our team. Please tell me who these great rebounders are we have on this years team.
Quote from: denverMU on January 02, 2011, 05:32:24 PM
I will go back and look at the Vandy game and get back to you. I asked for actual stats/facts. I know this is just a fan board made up mostly of opinions but sometimes it's helpful back up your opinions. Gardner gets as many or more rebounds per minute than anyone on our team. Please tell me who these great rebounders are we have on this years team.
I am not one of the stats gurus on this board. I've never been to any of the sites they reference. I trust my own knowledge of basketball to form my opinions. Besides, I don't know of any stats that would quantify how much of a liability Gardner is to the team from a defensive POV.
Rebounds per minute is a nice stat I guess, but it doesn't tell you squat about how many offensive rebounds/2nd chance points are given up by Gardner, how many points are scored by the opposing player while he is guarding him, his inability to move laterally and quickly to help defend a pentrating player, etc. etc. etc.
I'm not trying to single out Gardner, I like him as a player and I think he's going to be a good player for us if he can get his body right. But right now, in my opinion based on watching the games, he's clearly a defensive liability when matched up against a mobile, athletic big guy. Otule is a much better option.
Quote from: denverMU on January 02, 2011, 05:32:24 PM
I will go back and look at the Vandy game and get back to you. I asked for actual stats/facts. I know this is just a fan board made up mostly of opinions but sometimes it's helpful back up your opinions. Gardner gets as many or more rebounds per minute than anyone on our team. Please tell me who these great rebounders are we have on this years team.
From a purely stat standpoint, I would be looking at DEFENSIVE rebounds per minute for Gardner. He is a decent offensive rebounder but not as good on the defensive side which everyone is talking about. If you use that stat, Crowder and Fulce blow Gardner away. And Crowder has been in much more difficult parts of the game. A bulk of Gardner's minutes have been garbage time.
To guard quicker post players when Otule is out, Fulce is the best option if healthy. If the post is slow, I do like Davante to get some minutes provided he is doing is job boxing out and rebounding.
First, I went back and looked at the Vandy game. In 3 minutes, he scored on his only shot, blocked 1 shot, and his man had 2 off. rebounds and scored once. Not exactly a terrible disadvantage of a player who should get zero minutes against WV. As far as def./off. rebounds per minute he stacks up quite well against Crowder and Fulce. Crowder (off/def rpm) .1/.16 Gardner .12/.14 Fulce .09/.24 I don't think we have anybody who stacks up well against quick, mobile, big men. My main point is Gardner is a very good low post offensive player, he catches passes and passes back out well, he draws fouls on the other teams big men and he makes free throw. I think he deserves to play more.
Quote from: denverMU on January 02, 2011, 08:42:51 PM
First, I went back and looked at the Vandy game. In 3 minutes, he scored on his only shot, blocked 1 shot, and his man had 2 off. rebounds and scored once. Not exactly a terrible disadvantage of a player who should get zero minutes against WV. As far as def./off. rebounds per minute he stacks up quite well against Crowder and Fulce. Crowder (off/def rpm) .1/.16 Gardner .12/.14 Fulce .09/.24 I don't think we have anybody who stacks up well against quick, mobile, big men. My main point is Gardner is a very good low post offensive player, he catches passes and passes back out well, he draws fouls on the other teams big men and he makes free throw. I think he deserves to play more.
I bet Buzz starts Gardner after reading this.
Quote from: denverMU on January 02, 2011, 05:32:24 PM
I will go back and look at the Vandy game and get back to you. I asked for actual stats/facts. I know this is just a fan board made up mostly of opinions but sometimes it's helpful back up your opinions. Gardner gets as many or more rebounds per minute than anyone on our team. Please tell me who these great rebounders are we have on this years team.
Look, I was at the Vanderbilt game in Nashville. We lost the game because we could not solve a 2-3 defense early in the second half (and people wondered why Huggie Bear tried it Satursday) and because defensively, we were suckered way too many times. Jae was one of nine players who played and when you lose by that little, it is a TEAM loss.
Get it -- T-E-A-M loss. That means everybody did something to contribute, not just one player. I remember 1969 when Marquette was one Ric Cobb free throw away from the Final Four. Rick missed and my wise parents reminded me there were several lapses during the game where someone could have done something that would have prevented us from ever being in a position where Ric HAD to hit two free throws. Same here dudes. Same here.
Jae will be great and we'll do fine if we're patient and opportunistic. We were neither in Nashville and that's why we lost.
I bet Buzz never plays Gardner again after reading this thread.
Since you such a stat guy KenPoms stats on Defensive Rebounding are much more reliable than what you are using (see link below). Crowder has 18% DR while Fulce has a 31.4% DR rating. Otule as a 16.9% DR rating. Davante's is 15.7%. KenPom uses legitimate defensive possessions including for missed shots while the player is in the game to determine which is much more reliable than simply taking defensive boards divded by minutes.
http://www.kenpom.com/team.php?team=Marquette (http://www.kenpom.com/team.php?team=Marquette)
I'm not a huge stat guy. I just prefer facts to opinions and feelings. The numbers I used were from MU's web site on year to date stats. I keep reading on posts how bad a defensive player Gardner is and I disagree and I think his offense outweighs his defense.
Quote from: denverMU on January 02, 2011, 10:29:53 PM
I'm not a huge stat guy. I just prefer facts to opinions and feelings. The numbers I used were from MU's web site on year to date stats. I keep reading on posts how bad a defensive player Gardner is and I disagree and I think his offense outweighs his defense.
The guy has got great footwork for his size and an amazing touch. Evidently, he is a decent three point shooter as well. He is going to be a really good player for us. We don't win the Bucknell game without him. He helped keep the Duke game close.
That said, he needs works on his defensive rebounding and help defense. Once he does, he is going to be really good. In the meantime, I hope he averages 10mpg and makes a difference in those minutes.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on January 02, 2011, 10:36:29 PM
The guy has got great footwork for his size and an amazing touch. Evidently, he is a decent three point shooter as well. He is going to be a really good player for us. We don't win the Bucknell game without him. He helped keep the Duke game close.
That said, he needs works on his defensive rebounding and help defense. Once he does, he is going to be really good. In the meantime, I hope he averages 10mpg and makes a difference in those minutes.
I couldn't agree more. Also, thanks for the link. I noticed Gardner has our top rating for offense and offensive rebounding.
Ill agree with Denver here. He is not saying Gardner is the best player on the team, or always needs to be in. But the the promulgation of the idea that Gardner can play NO defense is fairly false. Is he liability on defense? Yes, and I think most agree with that. However, the question is HOW big of a liability. I just dont see that his D is as big of an issue as much as people here state it as pure fact.
I think people too often jump to conclusions for why people are not playing, and defense is an easy, hard to quantify aspect that can be pointed to conveniently. I think we've seen plenty of defenses lapses from many players, and maybe more from Gardner than anyone else. But I believe the difference he makes on offense, specifically half-court, is so significant and something no other player can remotely equal that his D should be somewhat overlooked.
His hands and footwork are fantastic, he looks more natural in his position than any freshman since Dom, and more than any big that I can remember. Just watching him on offense is just so refreshing for me, as this program has not seen that type of natural skill in a long time. That doenst mean I think he should be playing more than Otule, but that Im a little selfish cause I really enjoy seeing a big man who FINALLY looks like he knows what he's doing in the post.
A good offense helps your defense, especially one that can eat time.
Quote from: Aughnanure on January 02, 2011, 11:52:32 PM
I think people too often jump to conclusions for why people are not playing, and defense is an easy, hard to quantify aspect that can be pointed to conveniently. I think we've seen plenty of defenses lapses from many players, and maybe more from Gardner than anyone else. But I believe the difference he makes on offense, specifically half-court, is so significant and something no other player can remotely equal that his D should be somewhat overlooked.
Defense might be hard to *quantify* but it is fairly easy to see when someone doesn't play it well. And Gardner doesn't. But I do agree with you that there are a number of people on this team that don't play very good defense too.
Quote from: denverMU on January 02, 2011, 10:29:53 PM
I'm not a huge stat guy. I just prefer facts to opinions and feelings. The numbers I used were from MU's web site on year to date stats. I keep reading on posts how bad a defensive player Gardner is and I disagree and I think his offense outweighs his defense.
I have the ability to generate some stats showing net contributions as a factor of offensive and defensive stats. My spreadsheet is all outdated so it'll take some time to work through.
Great, I would love to see it.
Quick calcs
By my numbers (which may vary from Pomeroy's)
- Gardner has the #3 ORtg on the team at 128.
- His stop percentage (which is an aspect of defense that can be determined pretty accurately) is 55%. It's worse than average, but not by much.
- His DRtg (which is really just an approximation) is worse than average, but again not by much.
- Gardner's net point contributions are 4th highest on the team (behind Crowder, Butler, and DJO). With less usage than Vander and Buycks, he's more of a contributor.
The short answer to your question is that Gardner's offensive skills outweigh his defensive shortcomings. At least that's what the stats say.
I'll save the rest for a CS post. Free Ox!
This is getting back to Buzz's argument that Ox isn't conditioned as well as he should be. He's done very well in late-game situations because the other bigs are in foul trouble and are tired so he doesn't have an issue keeping up at that point.
I don't have a dog in this fight, I just thought I'd bring it up sine Buzz thought it was important enough to mention.
How relevant are these stats everyone is throwing out? Do they take into account and adjust for the fact that Ox's minutes have primarily been against lesser opponents while Crowder has logged significantly more minutes against the likes of Duke, Gonzaga, Wisconsin, etc.
If so, can you explain how the adjustment is made/calculated?
If not, the numbers are meaningless.
Quote from: Benny B on January 03, 2011, 10:51:19 AM
How relevant are these stats everyone is throwing out? Do they take into account and adjust for the fact that Ox's minutes have primarily been against lesser opponents while Crowder has logged significantly more minutes against the likes of Duke, Gonzaga, Wisconsin, etc.
If so, can you explain how the adjustment is made/calculated?
If not, the numbers are meaningless.
So are subjective opinions like Ox allows more offensive rebounds than Otule, or Otule covers his man better than Ox, or Ox is slow to his man. Look at the stats--or why do we have them?
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 03, 2011, 10:44:15 AM
Quick calcs
By my numbers (which may vary from Pomeroy's)
- Gardner has the #3 ORtg on the team at 128.
- His stop percentage (which is an aspect of defense that can be determined pretty accurately) is 55%. It's worse than average, but not by much.
- His DRtg (which is really just an approximation) is worse than average, but again not by much.
- Gardner's net point contributions are 4th highest on the team (behind Crowder, Butler, and DJO). With less usage than Vander and Buycks, he's more of a contributor.
The short answer to your question is that Gardner's offensive skills outweigh his defensive shortcomings. At least that's what the stats say.
I'll save the rest for a CS post. Free Ox!
Definitely agree with the "Free Ox" chant. he should be playing 15 plus minutes per game, and will score more down low than Otule.
Quote from: Benny B on January 03, 2011, 10:51:19 AM
How relevant are these stats everyone is throwing out? Do they take into account and adjust for the fact that Ox's minutes have primarily been against lesser opponents while Crowder has logged significantly more minutes against the likes of Duke, Gonzaga, Wisconsin, etc.
If so, can you explain how the adjustment is made/calculated?
If not, the numbers are meaningless.
Crowder has the best Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating on the team, as well as the most net points.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 03, 2011, 11:21:00 AM
Crowder has the best Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating on the team, as well as the most net points.
The numbers for Ox are very interesting, but Benny's question remains. Are they skewed because such a high percentage of his minutes have come against cupcakes?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2011, 12:31:43 PM
The numbers for Ox are very interesting, but Benny's question remains. Are they skewed because such a high percentage of his minutes have come against cupcakes?
Hard to say, really, but I don't think so. Gardner's numbers are based on roughly 5% usage, which is pretty low. He got 15 min against Duke, 7 Gonzaga, 18 against UW. I don't think Ox's numbers have come primarily against lesser opponents, and they don't appear any more skewed than anyone else's.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 03, 2011, 01:20:21 PM
Hard to say, really, but I don't think so. Gardner's numbers are based on roughly 5% usage, which is pretty low. He got 15 min against Duke, 7 Gonzaga, 18 against UW. I don't think Ox's numbers have come primarily against lesser opponents, and they don't appear any more skewed than anyone else's.
He gets 15 minutes against Duke and 18 against UW, both quality opponents, and now he is relegated to the doghouse. What is wrong with that picture?
Quote from: willie warrior on January 03, 2011, 04:06:59 PM
He gets 15 minutes against Duke and 18 against UW, both quality opponents, and now he is relegated to the doghouse. What is wrong with that picture?
We lost to Duke and Wisconsin.
Henry Sugar, thanks for the great stats and thanks to everyone for keeping this a civil conversation.
Quote from: Marquette84 on January 03, 2011, 05:01:56 PM
We lost to Duke and Wisconsin.
So that is the reason he is not playing? I was at the Duke game--he played well. Do you wear knee pads for Otule? It was gardner's fault we lost? We also lost at Vandy when Gardner didn't play--so was that Otule's fault?
(Last time I will post this)
For those who have not seen this. Take a look at 2 minutes of the VANDY replay on espn3.com, you can still view the game. Game time to fast forward to is noted below.
-10:47 left in first half, DG in.
-9:42 Gardner gives up offensive rebound. Watch him CLEARLY get beat down the court getting back on D. He starts off ahead of his man but gets beat to the block on the other end of the court somehow. Results in Taylor putback from the lane.
-9:13 DG gets beat down the floor AGAIN. His man gets the offensive board and results in Tinsley hitting a 10 footer.
-8:51 OK defense by MU, shot from baseline bounces long and DG's man gets the offensive rebound. Tuff bounce. DG gets pulled.
Now I can understand pulling him there but that's where it ends. I thought he should have gotten a few minutes in the second half and also agree with some posts above that he should have gotten a few minutes vs. WVU.
I have it taped and have watched it three times now. Gardner comes in with 11:22 to go. Somehow you convienently forgot to mention his defensive shot block of Jenkins at the 10:14 mark and his 2 points at the 10:22 mark. Finally, Tinsley jumper was not Gardner issue VB forced up a poor shot, then failed to block out and then let Kinsley drive right by him.
Quote from: denverMU on January 03, 2011, 11:44:48 PM
I have it taped and have watched it three times now. Gardner comes in with 11:22 to go. Somehow you convienently forgot to mention his defensive shot block of Jenkins at the 10:14 mark and his 2 points at the 10:22 mark. Finally, Tinsley jumper was not Gardner issue VB forced up a poor shot, then failed to block out and then let Kinsley drive right by him.
Why did you throw conveinently in there? I missed it... Sorry about that, will try and do better. If you read the board the day after the vandy game you will see i listed out most of the plays of the entire half and was mostly concentrating on defense.
You are correct his first def possession at 11:22 was good and so was his second. Not sure how I missed that. There was a lot of rewinding going on.
At 9:13 I would agree VB deserves some blame but DG clearly gets beat down the court. Thats DG's man not VB's. If he hustles a half step more he can be in front of the guy that gets his hand on the rebound. If he does that Kinsley never has that chance.
I think we all can agree that Gardner looks to be a great offensive player, and just needs to improve his defense. The main reason he's not in there right now I imagine is due to experience which hurts him a bit more on D. He is going to be a great player and I'm excited to see him play more. With that said, I don't really know if I want him in a lot in big games quite yet. I understand some people wanting to see him play more, but just gotta remember his effectiveness on offense will probably be lower during conference play.
I love the Ox, but I think at this point he has to get in the game based on matchups. He seems to be able to score against anyone, but in order to not lose more than he's giving, he needs the right defensive matchup. A slow or tired big man that doesn't drift too far from the basket would be ideal. If DG can keep his body between his man and the basket, he seems to do alright on D. He gets into trouble if his man can use quickness to slip past him or when he has to move out towards the perimeter to guard and then can't slide back to the post in time.
Quote from: w0bbie on January 04, 2011, 10:22:45 AM
He gets into trouble if his man can use quickness to slip past him or when he has to move out towards the perimeter to guard and then can't slide back to the post in time.
Otule has the same problem.
A couple teams this year have had their big guy out at the top of the key moving the ball from wing to wing as the team initiates our offense. It's brutal watching Otule or Gardner hedge their bets between guarding their man out there and trying to be close enough to get back down low.
This is not a unique problem to Otule and Gardner, though
Quote from: Skatastrophy on January 04, 2011, 10:29:20 AM
Otule has the same problem.
A couple teams this year have had their big guy out at the top of the key moving the ball from wing to wing as the team initiates our offense. It's brutal watching Otule or Gardner hedge their bets between guarding their man out there and trying to be close enough to get back down low.
This is not a unique problem to Otule and Gardner, though
Definitely true. I think it's intensfied in DG's case by the fact that he is the slower of the two and doesn't have Otule's length. Although neither recover that well, Otule has the better chance of be able to contest. Both guys are works in progress. Since this was originally a thread about Crowder, I will say that I'm glad that we have DG and Otule so we don't have to rely on Crowder and Fulce splitting all the time at the 5.
nm