MUScoop

If you have a roster full of high-major players, transfers will happen.  Someone is always going to want more playing time.  It is part of the game and some need to learn to accept that.

All good, totally logical points.
I feel there needs to be more hysterical, panic-laced dread about the rest of the season, Buzz' job, and the MU basketball program.  A player is transferring...WORLDS ARE ENDING HERE!

Be that as it may, our attrition rate dating back to Crean's tenure is about as high as that of the teenage workforce at your local McDonalds.

An average player at that. A pg that can't shoot.

Quote from: lab_warrior on December 27, 2010, 02:18:50 PM
All good, totally logical points.
I feel there needs to be more hysterical, panic-laced dread about the rest of the season, Buzz' job, and the MU basketball program.  A player is transferring...WORLDS ARE ENDING HERE!

No one disagrees.....of course the way some posters here now accept transfers TODAY vs, say, a few years ago, is rather entertaining. 

The argument could be made that we didn't have a roster full of high major players 3-4 years ago and the transfers really hurt MU.

Quote from: Eford4President2012 on December 27, 2010, 05:42:52 PM
The argument could be made that we didn't have a roster full of high major players 3-4 years ago and the transfers really hurt MU.

Likewise, the argument could be made that a fair amount of those transfers were made for reasons other than playing time/opportunity.

Regardless, transfers happen. Particularly among young players who become convinced, rightly or wrongly, that they deserve more opportunity than they're getting.
I'd rather have players leaving under these circumstances than after getting caught breaking-and-entering and beating up their girlfriends, as has occurred at Chico's shining city on a hill about 90 miles to the west.

Quote from: Boone on December 27, 2010, 02:22:32 PM
Be that as it may, our attrition rate dating back to Crean's tenure is about as high as that of the teenage workforce at your local McDonalds.

Are you just talking or do you have data on this?  I'd love to know how we stack up compared to other high majors.

Quote from: Lockdown D on December 27, 2010, 02:16:00 PM
If you have a roster full of high-major players, transfers will happen.  Someone is always going to want more playing time.  It is part of the game and some need to learn to accept that.

I agree 100%.  If you improve the quality of your roster, someone is going to be upset about playing time. Better they leave than be a negative influence on the team because they are not healthy.  As far as Mr. Smith and his family goes, if they believe  he can get to the NBA sooner with another team more power to them.  All I can say is, if Jerel McNeal didn't make it, I doubt Reggie will make it.

I think the key words here are "improve the quality of the roster." That still remains to be seen.

Quote from: ecompt on December 27, 2010, 08:02:15 PM
I think the key words here are "improve the quality of the roster." That still remains to be seen.

I think it's safe to say that, 1-12 (now 11) this is likely the best roster of the last decade. Of course, other teams were certainly better at the top.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 27, 2010, 04:18:29 PM
No one disagrees.....of course the way some posters here now accept transfers TODAY vs, say, a few years ago, is rather entertaining. 

It's simple chicos crean was seen as a world class butt wipe and williams seems to be a pretty likeable guy so he is given the benefit of the doubt. It;s not fair and it's not right. But what ev.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 27, 2010, 05:57:59 PM
Likewise, the argument could be made that a fair amount of those transfers were made for reasons other than playing time/opportunity.

Regardless, transfers happen. Particularly among young players who become convinced, rightly or wrongly, that they deserve more opportunity than they're getting.
I'd rather have players leaving under these circumstances than after getting caught breaking-and-entering and beating up their girlfriends, as has occurred at Chico's shining city on a hill about 90 miles to the west.

Nice.  Yes, because you know I and others condone that kind of behavior.  In fact, we encourage it.  Of course, none of that has ever happened at MU and not swept under the rug....no, no.  Never.  (Edited to put in teal as I realize some people need that visual aid)


So let's get back to reality, shall we.  I thought we were talking about transfers and stability of a program.  As stated, I don't like to admit it, but they are the epitome of stability and the epitome of success.  They don't get the recruits we do, yet they go to the NCAAs every year, RARELY have someone in trouble (yes, Pakuni pointed out two kids that were bounced before ever playing a single second for the team), don't have players that transfer, etc.

I can't stand their brand of basketball and a number of other things about them, but I tip my hat to what they've done.  They have established a program that wins almost all the time, has clearly been the best program in the state the last decade plus, their kids know what they are getting into (either because it's explained up front or they don't bother recruiting kids that are head cases or parents that are head cases) and they just get keep on going on.  Remarkably stable and remarkable results.  

Quote from: mueron on December 27, 2010, 08:14:19 PM
It's simple chicos crean was seen as a world class butt wipe and williams seems to be a pretty likeable guy so he is given the benefit of the doubt. It;s not fair and it's not right. But what ev.

So you're saying that people are being hypocritical pricks?  That's all I wanted to hear, we're getting closer.  It took a few years of therapy, but I think people are finally having a breakthrough.  This is so exciting. 

not hypocritical, while it was pointed out that one was a raging dbag who treated people like crap and  the other is like-able and treats people well, the other fact is that the current one has deeper and more consistent recruiting classes which gives more slack for transfers

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 27, 2010, 08:19:54 PM
So you're saying that people are being hypocritical pricks?  That's all I wanted to hear, we're getting closer.  It took a few years of therapy, but I think people are finally having a breakthrough.  This is so exciting.  

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 27, 2010, 08:19:54 PM
So you're saying that people are being hypocritical pricks? 

So you're going to call people "pricks" because they trash a coach who you admit is a jerk?  He was the most recent coach to burn MU, and was a jerk in the process (by your own admission).  This leads you to calling people pricks...keep it classy bud  ;)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 27, 2010, 08:18:50 PM
Nice.  Yes, because you know I and others condone that kind of behavior.  In fact, we encourage it.  Of course, none of that has ever happened at MU and not swept under the rug....no, no.  Never.

Oh look ... it's Chico's pretending he knows the deep dark secrets of Marquette basketball. How rare.
I'm merely pointing out the contradiction over you claiming "squirminess" over one program that hasn't had players in trouble while praising the bejeezus over another that has had numerous players in trouble.

QuoteThey don't get the recruits we do, yet they go to the NCAAs every year

Yes they do. From 2000 to 2008, MU landed eight RSCI top 100 players. Wisconsin landed nine RSCI top 100 players.

Quote, RARELY have someone in trouble (yes, Pakuni pointed out two kids that were bounced before ever playing a single second for the team)

Boo Wade, Marcetteaus McGee, Diamond Taylor, Jeremy Glover ... yep, pretty rare. Love the "never played a minute defense." Must be why you were such an ardent defender of Buzz over Monterale Clark. Oh, wait, you weren't.

Quotedon't have players that transfer, etc.

Mickey Perry, DeAaron Williams and Neil Plank might beg to differ.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 27, 2010, 09:25:41 PM
Oh look ... it's Chico's pretending he knows the deep dark secrets of Marquette basketball. How rare.
I'm merely pointing out the contradiction over you claiming "squirminess" over one program that hasn't had players in trouble while praising the bejeezus over another that has had numerous players in trouble.


Yes they do. From 2000 to 2008, MU landed eight RSCI top 100 players. Wisconsin landed nine RSCI top 100 players.

Boo Wade, Marcetteaus McGee, Diamond Taylor, Jeremy Glover ... yep, pretty rare. Love the "never played a minute defense." Must be why you were such an ardent defender of Buzz over Monterale Clark. Oh, wait, you weren't.

Mickey Perry, DeAaron Williams and Neil Plank might beg to differ.

Quit picking on Chicos...you wouldn't dare to do this to some other poster who obviously loves UW, er, MU basketball. 
>
>
>
Waiting for the "you're mis-representing what I ACTUALLY said defense...wait for it...

Quote from: Lockdown D on December 27, 2010, 02:16:00 PM
If you have a roster full of high-major players, transfers will happen.  Someone is always going to want more playing time.  It is part of the game and some need to learn to accept that.

I believe these statements to be true.

I also believe Marquette does not have a roster full of high-major players.

Madtown, Pakuni, ATL and Avid. I see Chicos is fighting again with 4 of those 5 people who constantly pick on him. Wait, those guys aren't in his fave five? Guess the number of "hypocritical pricks" around here is on the rise. Thank God we have Chicos selflessly offering his services to rid the board of such shennanigans.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 27, 2010, 09:25:41 PM
Oh look ... it's Chico's pretending he knows the deep dark secrets of Marquette basketball. How rare.
I'm merely pointing out the contradiction over you claiming "squirminess" over one program that hasn't had players in trouble while praising the bejeezus over another that has had numerous players in trouble.


Yes they do. From 2000 to 2008, MU landed eight RSCI top 100 players. Wisconsin landed nine RSCI top 100 players.

Boo Wade, Marcetteaus McGee, Diamond Taylor, Jeremy Glover ... yep, pretty rare. Love the "never played a minute defense." Must be why you were such an ardent defender of Buzz over Monterale Clark. Oh, wait, you weren't.


Mickey Perry, DeAaron Williams and Neil Plank might beg to differ.

Here's the difference....UW-madison dealt with them and moved them out of the program....MU....not so much...in fact, added them to the team....THUS the squirminess.

Try to catch up Pakuni, you keep going this slow it's going to be a rough 2011.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on December 27, 2010, 08:43:00 PM
not hypocritical, while it was pointed out that one was a raging dbag who treated people like crap and  the other is like-able and treats people well, the other fact is that the current one has deeper and more consistent recruiting classes which gives more slack for transfers

Really....maybe a few players no longer here might disagree with those statements about being treated well.

At any rate, that's not really the point.  What I've always just laughed my butt off at fans here is the utter hypocrisy in how they handle each coach.  O'Neill was a class A prick of pricks.  TC the same.  Yet people treated them differently, despite one actually delivering a Final Four and not crapping on the university every 10 seconds.

Majerus leaves MU high and dry in late June...no problem.  Crean leaves MU April 1st and leaves Buzz Williams plus a loaded Senior laden team and solid junior players....you get the idea.

It's just been funny as crap to watch, I must say.  It took several years for people to finally admit what it was all about...progress.

Now this just in, there are plenty of people in this world that are world class a-holes but they get the job done.  CEOs, politicians, coaches, etc.  If the prerequisite is to have a woody for how nice the coach is, we're in trouble.  I could give a rip how nice the coach is...GRADUATE players, Win games, DO NOT get into NCAA trouble and I'm a happy camper.  If that means you're a SOB (like Bobby was at IU), so be it. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 27, 2010, 11:23:08 PM
Now this just in, there are plenty of people in this world that are world class a-holes but they get the job done.  CEOs, politicians, coaches, etc.  If the prerequisite is to have a woody for how nice the coach is, we're in trouble.  I could give a rip how nice the coach is...GRADUATE players, Win games, DO NOT get into NCAA trouble and I'm a happy camper.  If that means you're a SOB (like Bobby was at IU), so be it. 

I have to love your hypocrisies.  You would support Bobby because he graduates players, wins games, and stays clean with the NCAA, but it does not bother you that he assaults kids and owes jail time to another country.  You must hold the NCAA in pretty high regards.  I say we hire Bobby with the requirement that we play in the Puerto Rico preseason tourney.  Not sure what's wrong with expecting a coach to win the right way and be a class act.  Seems to have worked well for Wooden, Smith and so many others.  If it turns out Buzz is full of $hit with all his religous and character talk, I say can him.  If not, I'm happy with him representing MU, and I also expect him to field a quality team.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 27, 2010, 11:17:31 PM
Here's the difference....UW-madison dealt with them and moved them out of the program....MU....not so much...in fact, added them to the team....THUS the squirminess.

Please name the burglars, woman beaters and suspected rapists added to the team in recent years.
Oh wait ... you only toss out accusations, never actually back them up.
Love how a guy portrays himself as the voice of morality and integrity around here while continually making cowardly, anonymous accusations without offering a shred of evidence to back them up (not to mention the childish name-calling and personal attacks upon those with whom he disagrees).
Cura personalis, indeed.

QuoteTry to catch up Pakuni, you keep going this slow it's going to be a rough 2011.

You're a funny boy.
Tell us again how UW recruits lower-ranked recruits (false), has players that stay out of trouble (false) and never has transfers (false).

Quote from: avid1010 on December 27, 2010, 11:55:55 PM
I have to love your hypocrisies.  You would support Bobby because he graduates players, wins games, and stays clean with the NCAA, but it does not bother you that he assaults kids and owes jail time to another country.  You must hold the NCAA in pretty high regards.  I say we hire Bobby with the requirement that we play in the Puerto Rico preseason tourney.  Not sure what's wrong with expecting a coach to win the right way and be a class act.  Seems to have worked well for Wooden, Smith and so many others.  If it turns out Buzz is full of $hit with all his religous and character talk, I say can him.  If not, I'm happy with him representing MU, and I also expect him to field a quality team.

There's a reason why Bobby's former players love him and stood by him through thick and thin.  This whole "assaults" players is crap.  It's Woody Hayes syndrome.  Woody got canned for hitting a player, he shouldn't have done.  Of course 99.9% of what he did and the lives he improved at OSU was the real story.  Bobby improved lives left and right at IU and that is the real story.

And please, the jail time in another country.  Firs toff, Puerto Rico isn't another country...it is a US Territory.  Secondly, Puerto Rico more than 3 DECADES ago dropped this. 


And to answer your question succinctly, I would love to have a Bobby Knight at MU and win 3 national titles, graduate all but four players in 3 decades, turn out model citizens 99% of the time, etc.  IN A #$&#$ HEARTBEAT.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 28, 2010, 12:10:30 AM
Please name the burglars, woman beaters and suspected rapists added to the team in recent years.
Oh wait ... you only toss out accusations, never actually back them up.
Love how a guy portrays himself as the voice of morality and integrity around here while continually making cowardly, anonymous accusations without offering a shred of evidence to back them up (not to mention the childish name-calling and personal attacks upon those with whom he disagrees).
Cura personalis, indeed.

You're a funny boy.
Tell us again how UW recruits lower-ranked recruits (false), has players that stay out of trouble (false) and never has transfers (false).

In the last decade, per the NCAA info I can find, UW-madison has had ONE transfer.  You'll forgive me for my EXAGGERATED hyperbole for having the crazed out of control statement that they don't have anyone transfer...I was wrong...they had one.   ::)

Reading comprehension time...I said "RARELY HAS players in trouble"  ( http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23089.msg254652#msg254652 )  I did not say NEVER...so what is that now, a False boomerang back to you or something?  I'll have to ask my 8 year old, I'm sure there's some lame double false nomenclature they use on the playground which would be appropriate here.

UW doesn't recruit lower ranked players than MU?  Gee, according to this board they sure do....in fact I've been told they are on the downhill slide because of their poor recruiting yet I don't recall you ever once stating that was false on their part.  In the Buzz era, they have landed exactly one player in the RSCI top 100...#95 Evan Anderson.   MU, on the other hand, has landed #48 Vander Blue, #47 Junior Cadougan, #67 Erik Williams, etc.

So exactly how is that statement false....is that now a triple mocha boomerang false false false accusation?

Finally, your question about the suspected women beaters, burglars, and suspected rapists added to the team in recent years...none...thank God.  Do me a favor, could you also name those ADDED to the UW-Madison team in those years as well, you know, the ones that committed those crimes and THEN were added?  Or were they students \ recruits and after their transgressions were summarily dismissed as a result? 

Thanks.  I look forward to your responses as always, especially the ones that claim how my comments were false when they weren't...those are the most special.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2010, 12:48:18 AM
In the last decade, per the NCAA info I can find, UW-madison has had ONE transfer.  You'll forgive me for my EXAGGERATED hyperbole for having the crazed out of control statement that they don't have anyone transfer...I was wrong...they had one.   ::)

Reading comprehension time...I said "RARELY HAS players in trouble"  ( http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23089.msg254652#msg254652 )  I did not say NEVER...so what is that now, a False boomerang back to you or something?  I'll have to ask my 8 year old, I'm sure there's some lame double false nomenclature they use on the playground which would be appropriate here.

UW doesn't recruit lower ranked players than MU?  Gee, according to this board they sure do....in fact I've been told they are on the downhill slide because of their poor recruiting yet I don't recall you ever once stating that was false on their part.  In the Buzz era, they have landed exactly one player in the RSCI top 100...#95 Evan Anderson.   MU, on the other hand, has landed #48 Vander Blue, #47 Junior Cadougan, #67 Erik Williams, etc.

So exactly how is that statement false....is that now a triple mocha boomerang false false false accusation?

Finally, your question about the suspected women beaters, burglars, and suspected rapists added to the team in recent years...none...thank God.  Do me a favor, could you also name those ADDED to the UW-Madison team in those years as well, you know, the ones that committed those crimes and THEN were added?  Or were they students \ recruits and after their transgressions were summarily dismissed as a result? 

Thanks.  I look forward to your responses as always, especially the ones that claim how my comments were false when they weren't...those are the most special.

What a hot, steaming pile of BS.

By your own admission, your statement that they have no one transfer IS false. For someone who often uses semantics to avoid admitting he was wrong, it seems odd that you condemn someone else for doing the same. Pakuni even mentioned a few other players who transferred but apparently they weren't in the timeframe you designated so they don't count. Either way, the statement that you made was admittedly false so how can you actually argue that all of what you had said was true?

Interesting that you use the last decade in regards to transfers but prefer to only use "the Buzz era" in regards to recruits. As Pakuni pointed out earlier, "From 2000 to 2008, MU landed eight RSCI top 100 players. Wisconsin landed nine RSCI top 100 players." If my math is correct, 9 > 8. See, he can choose his own timeframes as well.

Finally, you're the one who stated, "Here's the difference....UW-madison dealt with them and moved them out of the program....MU....not so much...in fact, added them to the team....THUS the squirminess." That is why Pakuni is asking you to name these troublemakers who have been added to the program. You respond by saying condescendingly that they haven't been added, which clearly goes against what you previously said. Also, who are the troublemakes that MU did NOT get rid of? Saunders? Hazel? Clark? My assumption is that you have "inside info" that you're not at liberty to talk about, right?

Give it a rest, Chicos.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 28, 2010, 09:07:10 AM
What a hot, steaming pile of BS.

By your own admission, your statement that they have no one transfer IS false. For someone who often uses semantics to avoid admitting he was wrong, it seems odd that you condemn someone else for doing the same. Pakuni even mentioned a few other players who transferred but apparently they weren't in the timeframe you designated so they don't count. Either way, the statement that you made was admittedly false so how can you actually argue that all of what you had said was true?

Interesting that you use the last decade in regards to transfers but prefer to only use "the Buzz era" in regards to recruits. As Pakuni pointed out earlier, "From 2000 to 2008, MU landed eight RSCI top 100 players. Wisconsin landed nine RSCI top 100 players." If my math is correct, 9 > 8. See, he can choose his own timeframes as well.

Finally, you're the one who stated, "Here's the difference....UW-madison dealt with them and moved them out of the program....MU....not so much...in fact, added them to the team....THUS the squirminess." That is why Pakuni is asking you to name these troublemakers who have been added to the program. You respond by saying condescendingly that they haven't been added, which clearly goes against what you previously said. Also, who are the troublemakes that MU did NOT get rid of? Saunders? Hazel? Clark? My assumption is that you have "inside info" that you're not at liberty to talk about, right?

Give it a rest, Chicos.

MM, same can be said of Pakuni...why did he use 2000 to 2008?  Why not 2000 to 2010?  Oh, that's right...that would kill his argument and 9 wouldn't be greater than 8 because the numbers change.

The squirminess isn't hard to figure out MM, some of the very same guys we have (had) on this team purposely weren't recruited to UW-madison...FOR A REASON.   

On the transfers....I'm happy to admit I'm wrong.  I should take my own words of advice and not use ALWAYS, NEVER, or other absolute terms.  He's exactly right on Perry, Plank and Williams.  Tip of the hat to Pakuni and a bitchslap to me for being stupid and saying NEVER.

I'll state it more properly...RARELY does UW-madison have transfers....nothing comparable to what have here at MU under Crean \ Buzz.  Not even close.

Quote from: Lockdown D on December 27, 2010, 02:16:00 PM
If you have a roster full of high-major players, transfers will happen.  Someone is always going to want more playing time.  It is part of the game and some need to learn to accept that.

Actually, most "high-major" programs that aren't going through a coaching change don't have transfer rates that equal MU's over the past two years.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2010, 09:24:32 AM
MM, same can be said of Pakuni...why did he use 2000 to 2008?  Why not 2000 to 2010?  Oh, that's right...that would kill his argument and 9 wouldn't be greater than 8 because the numbers change.

As I stated, Pakuni can use his own timeframes just as easily as you can. If you used a different timeframe, it would kill your argument just the same...and it did.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2010, 09:24:32 AM
The squirminess isn't hard to figure out MM, some of the very same guys we have (had) on this team purposely weren't recruited to UW-madison...FOR A REASON.   

So there are criminals/woman-beaters/burglars currently on MU's roster? Who are they? Name them. Maymon supposedly wasn't recruited by UW because his father is a loon. Because of that you're willing to lump Jeronne into the same group as accused rapists? Cura personalis, as you like to say.

Quote from: Lockdown D on December 27, 2010, 02:16:00 PM
If you have a roster full of high-major players, transfers will happen.  Someone is always going to want more playing time.  It is part of the game and some need to learn to accept that.

no, the bottom line is below...
























_______________________________________________

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 28, 2010, 09:50:09 AM

So there are criminals/woman-beaters/burglars currently on MU's roster? Who are they? Name them. Maymon supposedly wasn't recruited by UW because his father is a loon. Because of that you're willing to lump Jeronne into the same group as accused rapists? Cura personalis, as you like to say.

Nope, just as there aren't any on UW-Madison and none that were recruited to UW-Madison.  Those incidents occurred AFTER they got there and were summarily dismissed.  The squirminess isn't related to your examples of criminality, but you know that I'm sure but it doesn't make for quite as good a complaint by you.  There are folks on MU's squad which UW-madison would not go after for a reason (and that has nothing to do with your criminal examples).

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2010, 12:48:18 AM
In the last decade, per the NCAA info I can find, UW-madison has had ONE transfer.  You'll forgive me for my EXAGGERATED hyperbole for having the crazed out of control statement that they don't have anyone transfer...I was wrong...they had one.   ::)

That NCAA data is simply false.
Neil Plank, DeAaron Williams and Mickey Perry  all transferred from Wisconsin in the Bo Ryan era. Look it up.
And, if you want to be technical, Diamond Taylor, Boo Wade and Marcetteaus McGee also transferred from Wisconsin ... though for reasons you say are oh so rare.

QuoteReading comprehension time...I said "RARELY HAS players in trouble"  ( http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23089.msg254652#msg254652 )  I did not say NEVER...so what is that now, a False boomerang back to you or something?  I'll have to ask my 8 year old, I'm sure there's some lame double false nomenclature they use on the playground which would be appropriate here.

Really Chico's? You consider four players thrown off the team in eight years for criminal behavior to be "rare." An average of one every other year? Interesting.
I wonder if you'd feel the same if Buzz Williams had to dismiss a player every other year for being a criminal.

QuoteUW doesn't recruit lower ranked players than MU?  Gee, according to this board they sure do....in fact I've been told they are on the downhill slide because of their poor recruiting yet I don't recall you ever once stating that was false on their part.  

Give me a break Chico's. The myth of Bo winning with a bunch of lesser recruits has been dispelled here repeatedly. Why you continue to cling to it is beyond comprehension.

QuoteFinally, your question about the suspected women beaters, burglars, and suspected rapists added to the team in recent years...none...thank God.

Wait ... what?
In your previous post at 11:17 p.m. you stated it was a fact that MU has added criminals to its roster and this was the reason for your squirminess ....

"Here's the difference....UW-madison dealt with them and moved them out of the program....MU....not so much...in fact, added them to the team....THUS the squirminess. "

Then, less than two hours later, you're telling us that "none" have been added.
Well, which is it? Has MU added criminals or not?
It would be much easier to discuss these issues if you invented just one bit of fiction and stuck to it.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2010, 09:57:23 AM
Nope, just as there aren't any on UW-Madison and none that were recruited to UW-Madison.  Those incidents occurred AFTER they got there and were summarily dismissed.  The squirminess isn't related to your examples of criminality, but you know that I'm sure but it doesn't make for quite as good a complaint by you.  There are folks on MU's squad which UW-madison would not go after for a reason (and that has nothing to do with your criminal examples).

I never said that there were any on UW's roster. YOU made the implication that there were players like that on Marquette's roster. YOU are the one who mentioned MU players getting in trouble. YOU are the one who stated that MU adds players of this ilk to their roster. Now you want to change the subject the "squirminess" level that you have in regards to certain players. That's fine.

Do tell. Who are these MU players that UW wanted no part of? Bo recruited Vander (obviously) as well as Wilson. I don't know about Buycks but he's the only other local product on the team and doesn't appear to have any major baggage. Is there someone I'm missing? Was Frozena not slow and white enough to play the swing? Please, enlighten us.

The "World According to Chico" is an interesting one. Today he insists that UW has been superior both on and off the court to MU for more than a decade. However, for the first 7+ years of that 10+ year time period, Chico was in total denial, constantly ripping UW and defending all things Marquette. An epiphany occured in April of 2008, curing him of his longtime myopia and allowing him to move forward fairly and objectively. Downright mysterious.

I think Chico's panties are in an extra tight bundle because his favorite coach / man-crush lost to Penn State AT HOME last night in one of their rare opportunities to get a Big Ten win this year (how long will the II,II fans put up with that crap?)

I think Lenny hit the Chico's situation on the head...

Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 27, 2010, 10:13:31 PM
I believe these statements to be true.

I also believe Marquette does not have a roster full of high-major players.

good point. I think many here want to believe the roster is loaded with high major talent. Time will tell.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 28, 2010, 09:07:10 AM

Interesting that you use the last decade in regards to transfers but prefer to only use "the Buzz era" in regards to recruits. As Pakuni pointed out earlier, "From 2000 to 2008, MU landed eight RSCI top 100 players. Wisconsin landed nine RSCI top 100 players." If my math is correct, 9 > 8. See, he can choose his own timeframes as well.

After further review, I'd like some clarification on who the 9 vs 8 are

Since 2000, MU has had 15 and Wisconsin 10.

Now, if you use the 2000 to 2008 criteria, looks to me like 10 for MU and 9 for UW.  

Per Pakuni's words...

Quote from: Pakuni

"Yes they do. From 2000 to 2008, MU landed eight RSCI top 100 players. Wisconsin landed nine RSCI top 100 players."  

Added NOTE:  6 of those top 100 UW players were 85 or worse (60%).  Only 3 MU players were (20%).  It's not just about quantity, but quality...no?

Marquette
Scott Merritt  #85
Travis Diener #40
Steve Novak #53
Dameon Mason #71
Wesley Matthews #61
Dominic James #36
Jerel McNeal #57
Trevor Mbakwe #91
Nick Williams #88
Tyshawn Taylor #73
Junior Cadougan #47
Erik Williams #67
Jeronne Maymon #73
Vander Blue #48
Jamail Jones #74


Wisconsin
Maurice Wade #90
Brian Butch #7
DeAaron Williams #91
Greg Stiemsma #37
Joe Krabbenhoft #28
Jason Bohannon #62
Trevon Hughes #88
John Leuer #86
Jarred Berggren #100
Evan Anderson #95

So, to recap, 9 is greater than 8.  But 9 is less than 10.  Furthermore, 15 is far greater than 10 and yet somehow they have been the best program in the state over the last decade.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2010, 11:52:45 AM
After further review, I'd like some clarification on who the 9 vs 8 are

Since 2000, MU has had 15 and Wisconsin 10.

Now, if you use the 2000 to 2008 criteria, looks to me like 10 for MU and 9 for UW. 

Stunningly, and nefariously I guess, I left out players who never came to Marquette. Silly me, I thought they were irrelevant to a discussion of how well the respective teams play.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 28, 2010, 10:45:43 AM
The "World According to Chico" is an interesting one. Today he insists that UW has been superior both on and off the court to MU for more than a decade. However, for the first 7+ years of that 10+ year time period, Chico was in total denial, constantly ripping UW and defending all things Marquette. An epiphany occured in April of 2008, curing him of his longtime myopia and allowing him to move forward fairly and objectively. Downright mysterious.

I'm a MU fan, I'll always rip UW...that's what rivals do.  I rip on UW still today....top 3 all-time probations...I have an infestation of fat Badger fans here in my town this week, the state might slip into the ocean as a result.  No, there is no love loss there at all.

The reality doesn't change, ANY way you measure it, they have had the best program the last decade and that is not an indictment of Deane, Crean, or Buzz...it's a tip of the hat to a program that signs far fewer top players than MU (15 to 10) but still gets it done year in and year out.

Quote from: Pakuni on December 28, 2010, 10:23:40 AM

Give me a break Chico's. The myth of Bo winning with a bunch of lesser recruits has been dispelled here repeatedly. Why you continue to cling to it is beyond comprehension.

Nope, and I just blew that out of the water again.  15 top 100 RSCI players this decade for MU.  10 for Wisconsin.  Most of Wisconsin's not even breaking the top 85 while more than 80% of MU's breaking the top 85.  So what was that about being DISPELLED REPEATEDLY?  Perhaps you need to update your stats because you're just plain wrong.

Wait ... what?
In your previous post at 11:17 p.m. you stated it was a fact that MU has added criminals to its roster and this was the reason for your squirminess ....

"Here's the difference....UW-madison dealt with them and moved them out of the program....MU....not so much...in fact, added them to the team....THUS the squirminess. "

Then, less than two hours later, you're telling us that "none" have been added.
Well, which is it? Has MU added criminals or not?
It would be much easier to discuss these issues if you invented just one bit of fiction and stuck to it.


NOPE.  I said UW dealt with those players and removed them.  You're the one who called them criminals and such.  No where did I say MU added criminals to it's roster, you went there, not me.  I said MU added players that were squirmy before we added them.  UW removed their players after transgressions were committed.  Now, if you believe I was saying MU added criminals, then that's a failure to communicate on both our ends, because I certainly never said MU added criminals but you certainly went there nonetheless.

Reading comprehension can be your friend.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on December 28, 2010, 10:54:23 AM
I think Chico's panties are in an extra tight bundle because his favorite coach / man-crush lost to Penn State AT HOME last night in one of their rare opportunities to get a Big Ten win this year (how long will the II,II fans put up with that crap?)

I think Lenny hit the Chico's situation on the head...

LOL.  My favorite coaches are actually anyone coaching Marquette followed by Stallings at Vanderbilt (would piss myself if we could have landed him).

Quote from: Pakuni on December 28, 2010, 11:56:49 AM
Stunningly, and nefariously I guess, I left out players who never came to Marquette. Silly me, I thought they were irrelevant to a discussion of how well the respective teams play.

They were irrelevant?  Odd, you said landed which I inferred to be SIGNED, if that wasn't the case then I apologize.  You see, just as I never said "criminals" or even implied it, people can read or infer things differently.  Crazy how that works in the world of the internets.   ;)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2010, 12:03:10 PM
Reading comprehension can be your friend.

OK, Chico's. Only you could write that MU added criminals (or players akin to crimianls?) and then less than two hours later deny writing it. Just like being forced to dismiss four players for being criminals in eight years (seven, actually) is a "rare" occurrence.
Seriously, how is one expected to have a sincere discussion with someone who won't even own up to his own statements?

Quote from: Pakuni on December 28, 2010, 12:12:06 PM
OK, Chico's. Only you could write that MU added criminals and then less than two hours later deny writing it. Just like being forced to dismiss four players for being criminals in eight years (seven, actually) is a "rare" occurrence.
Seriously, how is one expected to have a sincere discussion with someone who won't even own up to his own statements?

I NEVER said MU added criminals, ever.  I said MU added players that make my squirm factor go through the roof.  UW had players that LATER, after signed, had criminal issues and they were dismissed.  The point I was clearly making was that MU has taken a path of adding a few folks that make you go WTF when the squirm factor was already on high.  Hopefully that finally crystalizes it for you...nowhere did I say MU added criminals.  I'm sorry that my communications were that poor or your comprehension was that distorted to think that way.  


PS  Can we finally get beyond the MYTH that UW has been recruiting better players than MU over the last decade?  I should hope so, because they clearly haven't.

Am I the only one on this board who wonders how some of these guys can hold down a job with all the time they spend on here...?

Quote from: IAmMarquette on December 28, 2010, 12:31:11 PM
Am I the only one on this board who wonders how some of these guys can hold down a job with all the time they spend on here...?

The beauty of some jobs....you hit your numbers and whether you do it at 4:00am or 3:00pm, doesn't matter.  Other jobs people are chained to a desk from 9 to 5....different strokes for different folks, different job requirements for different folks.  I've got a buddy at another company that comes into his office once a month but books millions in sales from his home, on the golf course, etc. 

Quote from: IAmMarquette on December 28, 2010, 12:31:11 PM
Am I the only one on this board who wonders how some of these guys can hold down a job with all the time they spend on here...?

I'm off all week and can't even (haven't chosen to?) keep up.  lol.

Quote from: IAmMarquette on December 28, 2010, 12:31:11 PM
Am I the only one on this board who wonders how some of these guys can hold down a job with all the time they spend on here...?

Follow ZFFB's lead, marry bread.

Quote from: avid1010 on December 27, 2010, 11:55:55 PM
and owes jail time to another country. 

Oh oh. Does this mean that people are going to start demanding that Sonia Sotomayor produce her birth cirtificate? Does it mean that the guy who lead the Warriors to the title wasn't a real American? 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2010, 11:52:45 AM
After further review, I'd like some clarification on who the 9 vs 8 are

Since 2000, MU has had 15 and Wisconsin 10.

Now, if you use the 2000 to 2008 criteria, looks to me like 10 for MU and 9 for UW.  

Per Pakuni's words...

Added NOTE:  6 of those top 100 UW players were 85 or worse (60%).  Only 3 MU players were (20%).  It's not just about quantity, but quality...no?

Marquette
Scott Merritt  #85
Travis Diener #40
Steve Novak #53
Dameon Mason #71
Wesley Matthews #61
Dominic James #36
Jerel McNeal #57
Trevor Mbakwe #91
Nick Williams #88
Tyshawn Taylor #73
Junior Cadougan #47
Erik Williams #67
Jeronne Maymon #73
Vander Blue #48
Jamail Jones #74


Wisconsin
Maurice Wade #90
Brian Butch #7
DeAaron Williams #91
Greg Stiemsma #37
Joe Krabbenhoft #28
Jason Bohannon #62
Trevon Hughes #88
John Leuer #86
Jarred Berggren #100
Evan Anderson #95

So, to recap, 9 is greater than 8.  But 9 is less than 10.  Furthermore, 15 is far greater than 10 and yet somehow they have been the best program in the state over the last decade.

Lists like these can be way overrated anyways

The best team Bo ever had was lead by guys like Arlando Tucker and Devin Harris who aren't even on these lists. This year, while Leuer is a great college player, Taylor is just as valuable to them on not on the top 100 list.

For MU, their Final Four run was fueled by Wade obviously and he isn't on the list, nor is Mark Jackson who was a vital cog.

Currently for MU, Butler is our best player and has performed like a top 100 recruit in his time here. DJO has struggled this season from the perimeter, but coaches of numerous top 100 recruits the last few years would have gladly traded their under-performing top 100 recruit for DJO. Both guys are clearly better players for example than top 100 recruit Erik Williams who came in roughly at the same time.

Programs like UW and MU will never consistently haul in multiple elite recruits every year, but with a quality coach, they can sprinkle in some 4-5 star recruits to go along with the other 2-3 star kids that hopefully fit with a system the coach runs and also that some might be underrated by the scouting services which attach stars or numerical rankings to them, often enough inaccurately.

Looking at both MU/UW since say Bo Ryan took over, i don't see any sizable gulf either way in how well the two schools have recruited when all kids who were brought are factored into the equation and based just on recruiting rankings which are hardly an exact science anyways.

Granted, Bo did win more consistently than Crean did at Marquette and time will tell with Buzz, but either way it's hard for any college coach to match what Bo does by at least getting to the dance every single year, even if his success in the tournament has often been short lived.

I don't disagree with you and have said that ratings are very iffy on players, especially high school kids.  But that was the criteria used by the other poster so in comparing apples to apples, they have "landed" fewer RSCI top 100 kids than MU but have had more success...more NCAA appearances, more NCAA wins, more conference titles, more conference tournament titles, more overall wins, better head to head with us, etc, etc.

Quote from: El Duderino on December 29, 2010, 03:54:14 AM

For MU, their Final Four run was fueled by Wade obviously and he isn't on the list, nor is Mark Jackson who was a vital cog.

I think you meant Robert Jackson, who was actually ranked 33rd in the RSCI in 1998 (prior to 2000 so he wouldn't have been on the list). 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 29, 2010, 09:59:10 AM
I don't disagree with you and have said that ratings are very iffy on players, especially high school kids.  But that was the criteria used by the other poster so in comparing apples to apples, they have "landed" fewer RSCI top 100 kids than MU but have had more success...more NCAA appearances, more NCAA wins, more conference titles, more conference tournament titles, more overall wins, better head to head with us, etc, etc.

If you're supposedly comparing "apples to apples," why do conference titles and conference tournament titles come into play? MU and Wisconsin aren't in the same conference so that's clearly not an apples to apples comparison.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 29, 2010, 09:59:10 AM
I don't disagree with you and have said that ratings are very iffy on players, especially high school kids.  But that was the criteria used by the other poster so in comparing apples to apples, they have "landed" fewer RSCI top 100 kids than MU but have had more success...more NCAA appearances, more NCAA wins, more conference titles, more conference tournament titles, more overall wins, better head to head with us, etc, etc.

I understand that top 100 was used and generally, most of the elite college players each year come from that top 100 ranking, more so top 40-50 though.

That said, i agree with the guy who said it's kinda a misnomer when people try implying that Bo wins every year with a bunch of nobody recruits. He doesn't land tons of top 100/4-5 star type of recruits, but he gets his share of them along with a good number of the next tier 100-200/3 star recruits.

What Bo does so well and better than the majority of other college coaches is find kids that fit what he wants for his system and then coach those kids up to play well in his system. It's why he won more consistently than Crean did at MU even though recruiting rankings wise, there was no wide gulf in the quality of recruits that Crean and Ryan brought in. Bo simply is a fabulous teacher as a basketball coach and better than most out there at it. Just as Crean couldn't win as consistently at MU as Bo has at UW, Buzz will also face tough odds in trying to reach the dance every year. Hell, even North Carolina missed the tournament last season.

Of course, for all of the success Bo Ryan has had at winning in the Big Ten and getting to the NCAA Tournament every single year, his teams overall have tended to struggle once at the NCAA Tournament. That's where his team's often lack of athleticism sometimes gets exposed and his mind boggling success at the Kohl Center can't help him/his teams.

All MU fans would love it if we also made the NCAA Tournament every single year as Bo Ryan has, but i question if that's a fair expectation to put on any coach at Marquette, be it Crean or Buzz. It's a very short list of schools or coaches that have made the big dance 10 straight years. So many factors can make a team have an off year or lose just enough close games to make them end up in the NIT instead, which is why Bo's streak of NCAA Tournament invites at a non-traditional basketball power with little history of past success is so well respected in the college basketball world, regardless of the often early exits in the tournament.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 29, 2010, 10:14:35 AM
If you're supposedly comparing "apples to apples," why do conference titles and conference tournament titles come into play? MU and Wisconsin aren't in the same conference so that's clearly not an apples to apples comparison.

Uhm, the apples to apples comparison was using the RSCI rankings.  I was agreeing with El Duderino that these rankings aren't the best in the world, but to keep the discussion coherent I used the same source (the RSCI) as the original poster did...THUS, APPLES TO APPLES.


The examples of how they have been the dominant team this last decade were my own opinions (though all based on facts...they have won more conference titles, tournament titles, head to head, NCAA appearances, NCAA wins, total wins, etc). 

Quote from: El Duderino on December 29, 2010, 04:11:50 PM
I understand that top 100 was used and generally, most of the elite college players each year come from that top 100 ranking, more so top 40-50 though.

That said, i agree with the guy who said it's kinda a misnomer when people try implying that Bo wins every year with a bunch of nobody recruits. He doesn't land tons of top 100/4-5 star type of recruits, but he gets his share of them along with a good number of the next tier 100-200/3 star recruits.

What Bo does so well and better than the majority of other college coaches is find kids that fit what he wants for his system and then coach those kids up to play well in his system. It's why he won more consistently than Crean did at MU even though recruiting rankings wise, there was no wide gulf in the quality of recruits that Crean and Ryan brought in. Bo simply is a fabulous teacher as a basketball coach and better than most out there at it. Just as Crean couldn't win as consistently at MU as Bo has at UW, Buzz will also face tough odds in trying to reach the dance every year. Hell, even North Carolina missed the tournament last season.

Of course, for all of the success Bo Ryan has had at winning in the Big Ten and getting to the NCAA Tournament every single year, his teams overall have tended to struggle once at the NCAA Tournament. That's where his team's often lack of athleticism sometimes gets exposed and his mind boggling success at the Kohl Center can't help him/his teams.

All MU fans would love it if we also made the NCAA Tournament every single year as Bo Ryan has, but i question if that's a fair expectation to put on any coach at Marquette, be it Crean or Buzz. It's a very short list of schools or coaches that have made the big dance 10 straight years. So many factors can make a team have an off year or lose just enough close games to make them end up in the NIT instead, which is why Bo's streak of NCAA Tournament invites at a non-traditional basketball power with little history of past success is so well respected in the college basketball world, regardless of the often early exits in the tournament.

I don't think people are saying that Bo wins with "nobody recruits".  It's clear, however, that he wins more than we do with less touted recruits if one were to use the RSCI data as a source.  It's also clear that the predictions of their demise by some here because they aren't landing recruits higher ranked than MU's is probably more wishful thinking than reality.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on December 28, 2010, 10:54:23 AM
I think Chico's panties are in an extra tight bundle because his favorite coach / man-crush lost to Penn State AT HOME last night in one of their rare opportunities to get a Big Ten win this year (how long will the II,II fans put up with that

Penn State sure sucks.....