Last year we were blessed with a player with incredible leadership skills. Whatever the game or whatever the circumstances, every MU fan knew that Hayward was the man. This year it was always assumed that role would go to Butler. However, it appears to me that Jimmy has just not taken over that role. Now that's not a slap in the face of JB, it's merely the perception I have based upon his role this year.
Leadership is not something most people are born with. Failure to have that quality doesn't make one a lesser human being. However, we all became so used to Zar last year and his role that perhaps we underappreciated what he meant to the team. Last year Zar and Butler reminded me of the Jordan-Pippen duo. Scotty was a great sidekick but Jordan was the guy who put the team on his back whenever it was needed. After Michael left, Pippen was never able to assume a good leadership role on the teams he played for. That may be the reality with Butler this year. Great team mate and excellent player, but not a dynamic leader that this young team needs.
Well leadership is in part on court performance and JFB isn't as talented a bball player as Zar.
From shooting to leadership...we were SPOILED ROTTEN last year...and it is a huge wake-up call for everyone this year.
Not a slap in the face to anyone (player or coach); it's a fact.
Spoiled rotten last year and the four years before. You know who the go-to PG was, or the go-to glue-guys. We don't have that this year. I wouldn't say the team is young because they have enough juniors sprinkled in there, but, they are inexperienced playing D-1 ball together.
Biggest thing is point guard. We don't have a leader at the PG position...yet. I think we will eventually. Reggie Smith and Vander Blue were the starting guards against UW. Forget the whole rebounding thing. You know what you are getting from UW. That's their calling card...rebounding, defense, and an offense that lulls you to sleep. That being said, there was no leadership out there for MU.
I think the crowd at the game - except for the students - sucked. It's like the crowd never expected them to win to matter what MU did so they held back. The roof should have come off for Butler's three but it didn't. All it did was finally get the lower deck alums to get up. Nobody on MU took charge all game and that lack of leadership is what needs to be found in the next three weeks before the Big East opens up.
One other thing - based on what we've seen, I think we have seen how valuable Acker and Cubillon were to the team last year.
I see your point, but I will say that just because he doesn't score 20ppg and grab 8rbg doesn't mean he is not a good leader. Flat out, he just isn't as talented as Zar (NBA 1st rounder), but will lead in practice by working the hardest, being the most vocal, and spending the most time in the weight room/shooting on his own/watching film.
In continuation of that point, last year Acker and Cubillan weren't necessarily stuffing the stat sheet, but it was clear that they were "leaders" on the team.
The best leadership in the world isn't going to help MU's inability to hit outside shots. If DJO was hitting 40% of his 3s and MU had wins over Gonzaga and Wisconsin to show for it, no one would be questioning the leadership on this team. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that people would be praising the leadership on the team despite the fact that it'd be the same as it is now.
Right you are, 'stache.
Good points stache.
Thanks.
Winning cures all.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 13, 2010, 03:58:17 PM
Winning cures all.
Not really. It often masks mistakes. We beat UWM but it certainly didn't cure our rebounding problems.
I think he means for the fans, not for the team.
Zar's leadership is missed for sure, but what I also miss are the "tandem teams". That is, the guys who know each other inside and out on the court and are so well meshed when playing. The Three Amigos, particularly McNeal-James. Cubi-Acker. Hayward-Butler. There are no such obvious pairs this year yet, and this speaks to Buzz's concern the team won't "gel" this year, lack of identity, etc. I chalk it up to youth and the fact this is the first year that most of the guys have played together. I was hoping Butler-DJO would be the superstar tandem team this year but DJO can't seem to show up for the game yet. Hopefully that changes.
One of the major elements missing from this year's squad is senior leadership. And, that void lays squarely in the tanning bed of the douche in Bloomington.
Quote from: 96warrior on December 13, 2010, 07:11:23 PM
Zar's leadership is missed for sure, but what I also miss are the "tandem teams". That is, the guys who know each other inside and out on the court and are so well meshed when playing. The Three Amigos, particularly McNeal-James. Cubi-Acker. Hayward-Butler. There are no such obvious pairs this year yet, and this speaks to Buzz's concern the team won't "gel" this year, lack of identity, etc. I chalk it up to youth and the fact this is the first year that most of the guys have played together. I was hoping Butler-DJO would be the superstar tandem team this year but DJO can't seem to show up for the game yet. Hopefully that changes.
The tandem that does seem to be coming along is Cadougan-Gardner, which really bodes well for the future, as the they get more used to playing together and can be out on the floor for longer periods. If Cadougan develops a jump shot to go with his drive and dish, and Gardner can step out a bit, they will be a tough duo.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2010, 08:25:09 PM
One of the major elements missing from this year's squad is senior leadership. And, that void lays squarely in the tanning bed of the douche in Bloomington.
Crean is responsible for every bad thing that has happened these last two and a half seasons, isn't he?
Why stop at 2 1/2 seasons?
Quote from: DaCoach on December 13, 2010, 11:20:54 AM
L Last year Zar and Butler reminded me of the Jordan-Pippen duo. Scotty was a great sidekick but Jordan was the guy who put the team on his back whenever it was needed. After Michael left, Pippen was never able to assume a good leadership role on the teams he played for.
Insane. We won 55 games the year Jodan was out. Pippen put up 21, 9 and 6 during that time. We were one crappy foul call from going to the conference finals. You want someone who sets the tone? How about when pippen changed the nicks series by slamming it in Ewing's face with one of the greatest dunks of all time and then flexed at him.
What about post Bulls? After leaving the Bulls he was the best player on a portland team that was 1 game from getting to the finals in 2000.
He might not have been on Jordan's level (top 5 all time leaders/killers in any sport ever) but to say he wasn't a good leader is insane.
Wasn't that the same knicks series where he refused to enter the game because the final play was drawn up for kukoc? Which he hit???
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 14, 2010, 10:27:20 AM
Wasn't that the same knicks series where he refused to enter the game because the final play was drawn up for kukoc? Which he hit???
One selfish moment in a completely selfish career. He was the leader of that team and wanted the ball (another leadership trait). He handled it like a moron and i'm sure he regrets it to this day. I'm sure you are perfect to.
I love JB but he is a wing man, not a flight leader. Nothing wrong with that, either.
Quote from: ATWizJr on December 14, 2010, 11:15:13 AM
I love JB but he is a wing man, not a flight leader. Nothing wrong with that, either.
+1
I love Jimmy Butler as role player extraordinaire but he just doesn't seem to have that "Give me the damn ball" mentality that a #1 option typically has. There are crucial points in games where MU has possessions where he doesn't even touch the ball. That's obviously not all on him, but he just isn't the type of player to go
get the ball so he can make something happen for his team. As the UConn and StJ games last season proved, he's obviously not scared of having the ball in big moments, but his game is such that someone needs to
give him the ball because he's not going to demand it. That being said, I hope he proves me wrong and takes over in some crunch-time situations.
Since the thread is analogy-heavy, I'd equate it to a WR in football who has been a solid #2 for a while and is then expected to become "the man" after the #1 departs. With a majority of the attention now on him, it can take a while to adjust and some players just don't have it in them.
Quote from: ATWizJr on December 14, 2010, 11:15:13 AM
I love JB but he is a wing man, not a flight leader. Nothing wrong with that, either.
did warthog driver steal your password??
Rawdog...my point is that Pip struggled as a leader. At times he was great but at times he wasn't.
And don't drop the "I'm sure you are perfect" line. Lame.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2010, 08:25:09 PM
One of the major elements missing from this year's squad is senior leadership. And, that void lays squarely in the tanning bed of the douche in Bloomington.
When did Buzz go tanning in Bloomington? And why are you calling him a douche?
This year we have three seniors--and Buzz is responsible for recruiting all three. Butler and Buycks were 100% Buzz recruits. Fulce was recruited by Buzz when he was Crean's assistant. If those three players lack leadership skills, its because they either didn't have them when they were recruited, or the skills haven't been developed after they arrived.
We all know that if Butler or Buycks or Fulce displayed anything close to the leadership ability of a Tony Miller, Brian Wardle, Travis Diener or Lazar Hayward, you'd give Buzz 100% of the credit. So stop trying to pass the blame.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 13, 2010, 03:58:17 PM
Thanks.
Winning cures all.
But it's the leadership and maturity that helps teams get through the non-winning times....that's what typically makes a successful season. The ability to manage the losing and turning it around. The tough times call for leadership, whether that's in sports, politics, business, etc.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 14, 2010, 11:53:40 AM
Rawdog...my point is that Pip struggled as a leader. At times he was great but at times he wasn't.
And don't drop the "I'm sure you are perfect" line. Lame.
You are both right. Pippen was clearly a leader of that team, but he often struggled in that role. Incidentally, Paxson thought enough of his leadership abilities to bring him back for a swan song at the end of his career. To deny he was somebody other players went to for advice or somebody who was a leader on the court is silly. He also made some pretty poor choices and that Knicks thing really jumps out.
I think Jimmy has the personality to be a team leader, but there may be other stronger personalities on the team. I'm going to guess, although I have no personal knowledge, that Buycks is that type of person.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 13, 2010, 08:25:09 PM
One of the major elements missing from this year's squad is senior leadership. And, that void lays squarely in the tanning bed of the douche in Bloomington.
Last I checked we have three seniors on this team. Are you suggesting that only the guy in Bloomington recruited kids that ended up as leaders and the current coach that recruited these Seniors doesn't?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 14, 2010, 01:45:09 PM
But it's the leadership and maturity that helps teams get through the non-winning times....that's what typically makes a successful season. The ability to manage the losing and turning it around. The tough times call for leadership, whether that's in sports, politics, business, etc.
True, but as someone else pointed out, I was speaking in terms of the fans' perspective.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 14, 2010, 01:48:07 PM
Last I checked we have three seniors on this team. Are you suggesting that only the guy in Bloomington recruited kids that ended up as leaders and the current coach that recruited these Seniors doesn't?
One of those seniors is hurt and may never play again. The other two are 2nd and 3rd years seniors. We have no 4 year seniors or even any 3 year juniors on our team because of Crean's departure. Hard to argue those facts.
I imagine Pip also regret's this movie.
(http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blogmedia/2010/01/pippenlittle.jpg)
Orwell, maybe you missed the part where Buzz had to go Juco hunting to balance out the classes left behind by the Bloomington douche.
Quote from: reinko on December 14, 2010, 02:37:50 PM
I imagine Pip also regret's this movie.
(http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blogmedia/2010/01/pippenlittle.jpg)
Was that photo taken when MU brought Scottie in to talk to the players Crean left behind?
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 14, 2010, 02:59:10 PM
Was that photo taken when MU brought Scottie in to talk to the players Crean left behind?
You're one of a handful that can literally make me laugh out loud.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 02:20:19 PM
One of those seniors is hurt and may never play again. The other two are 2nd and 3rd years seniors. We have no 4 year seniors or even any 3 year juniors on our team because of Crean's departure. Hard to argue those facts.
One can lead not just with actions on the court...much like DJ did when his ankle was busted.
Yes, we don't have any 4 year seniors, but we do have three seniors. If we're worried about the ability of transfer players being able to lead as seniors since they aren't going to be here for four full years, then we might as well say we aren't going to take anyone but high school players from this day forward. (Yes, I understand why we took the JUCOs, I'm just saying moving forward if for some strange reason this squelches the ability to lead, we may want to only take 4 year players if what you say is 3 and 2 year Seniors are unable to show leadership....which I don't buy by the way).
I think more than leadership we miss Cubby and Mo's high basketball IQs, extra pass around the perimeter, and ability to knock down the 3 ball at a very high rate.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 14, 2010, 03:06:21 PM
One can lead not just with actions on the court...much like DJ did when his ankle was busted.
What were we, 2-6 after DJ broke his foot? After a 23-4 start? That's what I call leadership!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 03:13:39 PM
What were we, 2-6 after DJ broke his foot? After a 23-4 start? That's what I call leadership!
This is ridiculous. How many wins would you place on leadership from the bench, Lenny? Especially against top-20 teams?
Fact is, Dominic was vocal, supportive, and did some coaching from the bench while he was out. He handled the situation with incredible maturity. He could have sulked, but still was there for his guys. That's leadership for me.
Quote from: Tmreddevil on December 14, 2010, 03:12:19 PM
I think more than leadership we miss Cubby and Mo's high basketball IQs, extra pass around the perimeter, and ability to knock down the 3 ball at a very high rate.
+1,000,000
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 14, 2010, 03:20:32 PM
This is ridiculous. How many wins would you place on leadership from the bench, Lenny? Especially against top-20 teams?
Fact is, Dominic was vocal, supportive, and did some coaching from the bench while he was out. He handled the situation with incredible maturity. He could have sulked, but still was there for his guys. That's leadership for me.
DJ was great after the injury and I'd never say different. My point was that players do their effective leadership on the court, not off it. Expecting Joe Fulce or DJ to have any significant impact on a games outcomes from the bench is folly.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 02:20:19 PM
One of those seniors is hurt and may never play again. The other two are 2nd and 3rd years seniors. We have no 4 year seniors or even any 3 year juniors on our team because of Crean's departure. Hard to argue those facts.
Wrong. We have no 4 year seniors because Buzz was either unable to convince the players in that class to stay, or alternately he chose to encourage them to transfer.
THOSE are the facts.
Fact: None of the would-be seniors had left MU before we announced our new head coach. They all waited to see who Crean's successor would be.
Fact: In our two prior coaching transitions, almost no freshmen chose to leave.
Mike Deane recruited Nnamaka, Henry, Harris and Diggs as Freshman in his last year. All four stayed with MU until their senior year--Tom Crean's third season.
Kevin O'Neill recruited Abel Joseph, Shane Littles, Faisal Abraham, Anthony Pieper, and Chris Crawford--all were Freshmen in O'Neill's final season at MU, and all but Littles were at MU to see their senior year--Mike Deane's third season.
But here's the real conundrum--if Buzz is as beloved as a coach as you claim (and Crean is equally despised)--why did Christopherson and Mbakwe bail so quickly AFTER Buzz was named the new coach? If they were only staying because of Crean, wouldn't they have left on April 2nd?
Here's the other interesting factor. For Nnamaka, Henry, Harris, Diggs, Joseph, Abraham, Crawford and Pieper--their new coach was a complete stranger. They were recruited by someone else, and never had any prior interaction with either Deane or Crean before those coaches were named to the job. Yet
those players stuck around--not just for the summer, but until they completed their senior seasons. Kind of flies in the face of the contention that players won't play for a coach that didn't recruit them. Mbakwe and Chirsopherson KNEW Buzz because Buzz was THEIR assistant coach for a year. Despite that well established relationship, as soon as Buzz was named coach, Chiristopherson bailed, and Mbakwe wasn't too far behind.
Buzz MUST bear some blame for failing to recognize that he would no longer have a leader and do something about it. Dominic James was the team leader from day one. Ditto with Wardle, Tony Miller, Travis Diener, etc. Why didn't Buzz recruit a natural leader like that--someone who could lead the team without requiring three years of seasoning?
Sorry, but leadership isn't something that's "switchable."
Buzz should have had the foresight to look at his roster in 2008 and realize that his new class--Butler, Fulce, Otule--weren't the "step up and take charge" guys that he had with James, Hayward, McNeal etc. In the very next class he should have gone out and found a
leader--not a switchable who by definition is not a stand-above-the-crowd, go-to player.
Finally, I'll point out that in Crean's
fourth season, we had ZERO four-year seniors to provide leadership (Krunti Hester being long gone). I think we did okay that season.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 14, 2010, 11:53:40 AM
Rawdog...my point is that Pip struggled as a leader. At times he was great but at times he wasn't.
And don't drop the "I'm sure you are perfect" line. Lame.
The original post i responded to didn't say 'at times he wasn't great' it said he wasn't good. That is what i objected to. If you want to call him not great, fine. But to say he wasn't a good leader, aka a bad leader or to compare him to Jimmy Butler is ridiculous.
He led the bulls to 55 win and was very close to the confrence titles and almost took the blazers to the finals even if you want to discount his 6 championship teams. In the year without MJ he also lead the bulls in 4 statistical catagories. At the very least he was good.
84-
As you and everyone who follows MU with even a modicum of interest knows, Mbakwe had already packed his bags before Crean left. BECAUSE the Tanned One departed he gave the idea of staying a brief thought but Buzz was unable to bridge the chasm TC had created between MU and Trevor. I don't know exactly what happened with Cristopherson, but I'm sure he was unhappy with his playing time under Crean and was concerned as to what his future was here regardless of who was the coach.
O'Neil's players did stay - he had the class to push them hard in that direction. As much as some of his guys wanted to follow him, Kevin said no. Crean, on the other hand, was already trying to steal an MU commit before the ink was dry on his contract and his players had learned of his defection via ESPN.
Don't take my word that the players much prefer Buzz to Crean - ask them. DJ, Wes, Jerel, Lazar, etc.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 03:13:39 PM
What were we, 2-6 after DJ broke his foot? After a 23-4 start? That's what I call leadership!
Who did we lose to? As I recall, they were top 10 teams mostly, not unranked ones. Those pesky details.
Per Ken Pom
lost to #3 UCONN...#1 seed that year
lost to #4 Louisville....#1 seed that year
lost to #5 Pittsburgh...#1 seed that year
lost to #15 Syracuse in OT...#3 seed that year
lost to #14 Villanova by 1 point...#3 seed that year
Beat St. John's
Beat Utah State
Pesky details
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 14, 2010, 07:27:16 PM
Who did we lose to? As I recall, they were top 10 teams mostly, not unranked ones. Those pesky details.
Per Ken Pom
lost to #3 UCONN...#1 seed that year
lost to #4 Louisville....#1 seed that year
lost to #5 Pittsburgh...#1 seed that year
lost to #15 Syracuse in OT...#3 seed that year
lost to #14 Villanova by 1 point...#3 seed that year
Beat St. John's
Beat Utah State
Pesky details
We were #8 in the country and 1st in the BEast. Maybe you think a bunch of losses and a win over woeful St Johns and a squeeker over 11th seeded Utah St were only possible because of DJ's leadership. I love him and am glad he was so vocal about supporting his teamates, but his cheering from the sidelines made zero difference in any of the final scores. Oh, and Santa won't really be sliding down your chimney this year. Sorry to be the bearer of such bad news.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 06:16:04 PM
Don't take my word that the players much prefer Buzz to Crean - ask them. DJ, Wes, Jerel, Lazar, etc.
You can find examples for and against like this until the cows come home. The Cowboys players preferred Wade Phillips to Bill Parcells, too. Dwade loves Crean. Etc, etc.
Now, that's not meant to be a negative remark, just the reality that different strokes for different folks. Some people are going to love one coach, hate another...no different than a boss, a teacher, etc.
There are some people that I had as mentors that I despised at the time, but looking back 10, 20 years later I now understand why they were pushing me so hard. There are others that I got along with great and truly loved them. Others are complete jerkoffs then and still are now.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 14, 2010, 08:18:11 PM
You can find examples for and against like this until the cows come home. The Cowboys players preferred Wade Phillips to Bill Parcells, too. Dwade loves Crean. Etc, etc.
Now, that's not meant to be a negative remark, just the reality that different strokes for different folks. Some people are going to love one coach, hate another...no different than a boss, a teacher, etc.
There are some people that I had as mentors that I despised at the time, but looking back 10, 20 years later I now understand why they were pushing me so hard. There are others that I got along with great and truly loved them. Others are complete jerkoffs then and still are now.
Don't really care about Bill Parcells vs Wade Phillips, how much Wade likes TC or (no offense) your feelings about your various mentors. 84 was comparing Buzz to TC, and I was simply sharing the fact thatthose who played for both seem to prefer Buzz as a coach and as a human being.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 14, 2010, 01:34:30 PM
When did Buzz go tanning in Bloomington? And why are you calling him a douche?
This year we have three seniors--and Buzz is responsible for recruiting all three. Butler and Buycks were 100% Buzz recruits. Fulce was recruited by Buzz when he was Crean's assistant. If those three players lack leadership skills, its because they either didn't have them when they were recruited, or the skills haven't been developed after they arrived.
We all know that if Butler or Buycks or Fulce displayed anything close to the leadership ability of a Tony Miller, Brian Wardle, Travis Diener or Lazar Hayward, you'd give Buzz 100% of the credit. So stop trying to pass the blame.
Interesting..the only reason this thread exists is due to the team losing to UW, Duke and Gonzaga. If we won just 1 of those 3, more than likely the "leadership" of this team isn't even being questioned. Due to the good work of Tom Crean..and continued good work by Buzz Williams...expectations for this program are as high as ever - probably the highest since 1978.
I don't really care if Brian Wardle displayed great leadership..his teams pretty much sucked..we had not expectations for those teams..due to the aftermath of the Deane years and what Crean walked into. Not to be a jack ass here..but what did Travis Diener's "leadership" translate to after Dwade was gone? Two NIT appearances, one of which ended in the first round with a loss to Western Michigan..the other a 2nd round exit...
Leadership..isn't going to guarantee wins..nor is it going to help DJO start shooting like he did last year, nor will it change the fact we basically have 2 freshman at the PG position..all of which are factors in this team losing to UW and Gonzaga...and so we lost to the defending national championship team..thought to be better than last yar's team by 5 points...darn...if only we had better leadership
Quote from: RawdogDX on December 14, 2010, 03:52:44 PM
The original post i responded to didn't say 'at times he wasn't great' it said he wasn't good. That is what i objected to. If you want to call him not great, fine. But to say he wasn't a good leader, aka a bad leader or to compare him to Jimmy Butler is ridiculous.
He led the bulls to 55 win and was very close to the confrence titles and almost took the blazers to the finals even if you want to discount his 6 championship teams. In the year without MJ he also lead the bulls in 4 statistical catagories. At the very least he was good.
If you're going to take my words out of context, you obviously have few facts to present. I said
After Michael left, Pippen was never able to assume a good leadership role on the teams he played for. That's not the same as calling him bad.
Pippen, in his 2 years without Jordan, was dumped in the 2nd round of playoffs. In his only year with the Rockets, the team lost in the 1st round. In his 4 years with Portland, which he joined after finishing 1st in the Pacific the prior year, they never made it out of the 1st round 3 years straight. No evidence of great leadership based upon those results.
There's only one place to find leadership.
Next to legendship, of course.
Quote from: Ners on December 14, 2010, 09:33:42 PM
Interesting..the only reason this thread exists is due to the team losing to UW, Duke and Gonzaga.
Not really. Are you suggesting that leadership has no influence on wins and losses? Good leaders make their teams play better than they would otherwise. Particularly this year as we try and blend all the newcomers into a winning team, we clearly have shown an inconsistency that a strong leader might have leveled off. Believe it or not, it's about the play, not about the record.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 06:16:04 PM
As you and everyone who follows MU with even a modicum of interest knows, Mbakwe had already packed his bags before Crean left. BECAUSE the Tanned One departed he gave the idea of staying a brief thought but Buzz was unable to bridge the chasm TC had created between MU and Trevor.
Brief thought = five months.
And you ignore that Buzz and Trevor well knew each other well because Trevor sat injured on the bench for most of the year while Buzz sat next to him (figuratively speaking) as an assistant coach.
But here's the bottom line. If Buzz spends an entire season working with a player as an assistant coach, then can't convince the player to stay when he becomes the head coach, its not the departed coach's fault.
Mbakwe may not have wanted to player for Crean. But he also didn't want to play for Buzz. That's not Crean's fault.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 06:16:04 PM
I don't know exactly what happened with Christopherson, but I'm sure he was unhappy with his playing time under Crean
So is it intentional misrepresentation to leave out the knee surgery that forced Scott to miss much of the non-conference play, or did you simply forget when you claimed that he was "unhappy with his playing time?"
I mean, most guys I know are rational enough to know that when you miss two months of practice due to knee surgery, you don't play a whole lot of minutes--especially when you were just a frosh behind several of the best players in school history.
And do you seriously think that Christopherson thought he'd get big minutes as a freshman? Unless he was a complete imbecile, he KNEW he wasn't going to get much playing time his freshman (and probably sophomore) year. And he came anyway. It was entirely predicable.
But even if he expected more minutes at MU and took it out on Crean, Crean was gone. What it doesn't explain is why Christopherson left AFTER Buzz was named head coach.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 06:16:04 PM
and was concerned as to what his future was here regardless of who was the coach.
And Buzz apparently did a poor job of giving him the "I play the five hardest working guys in practice" speech.
But once again, we're faced with this: If Buzz spends an entire season working with a player as an assistant coach, but then can't convince the player to stay when he becomes the head coach, its not the departed coach's fault.
Quote from: DaCoach on December 14, 2010, 09:58:27 PM
Not really. Are you suggesting that leadership has no influence on wins and losses? Good leaders make their teams play better than they would otherwise. Particularly this year as we try and blend all the newcomers into a winning team, we clearly have shown an inconsistency that a strong leader might have leveled off. Believe it or not, it's about the play, not about the record.
Agree...it's not about the losses or the wins. I'd argue the play against Duke was very solid while some of the play in our wins we've been lacking in some of that leadership, the kind that demands we put our foot on a weaker team's neck and crushes them rather than put it in cruise control.
Quote from: ATWizJr on December 14, 2010, 11:15:13 AM
I love JB but he is a wing man, not a flight leader. Nothing wrong with that, either.
When I was flying CJ Falcons the best spot was slot 2 in a battle box. I love hitting gomers in the open.
Quote from: DaCoach on December 14, 2010, 09:58:27 PM
Not really. Are you suggesting that leadership has no influence on wins and losses? Good leaders make their teams play better than they would otherwise. Particularly this year as we try and blend all the newcomers into a winning team, we clearly have shown an inconsistency that a strong leader might have leveled off. Believe it or not, it's about the play, not about the record.
I'm suggesting that you can have good leadership, with good talent..and still not win games...as was the case in Travis Diener's Junior and Senior year. Think we all thought Travis to be a good leader, tough, and a competitor...but were the results very good? No.
And...are you really suggesting that this thread would even be occuring if we'd beaten say Wisconsin and Gonzaga?? No way does this thread exist. Furthermore...unless this "strong leader" can morph into the DJO of 2009-2010, and shoot it like the 2009-2010 edition of DJO did...I don't care how strong of leader he might be..it wouldn't be enough to get the team past 5 and 3 point defeats to Wisconsin and Gonzaga where DJO shot a combined 25% from the field.
Quote from: Ners on December 14, 2010, 10:57:23 PM
...as was the case in Travis Diener's Junior and Senior year. Think we all thought Travis to be a good leader, tough, and a competitor...but were the results very good? No.
Perhaps Murf was right about Travis, after all...
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 08:07:28 PM
Oh, and Santa won't really be sliding down your chimney this year.
You're right, Santa will be squirming down Chicos' chimney.
/sorryhadtosayit
Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 14, 2010, 11:10:00 PM
You're right, Santa will be squirming down Chicos' chimney./sorryhadtosayit
I heard Chicos has gerbils squirming down his chimney
Quote from: DaCoach on December 14, 2010, 09:58:27 PM
Not really. Are you suggesting that leadership has no influence on wins and losses? Good leaders make their teams play better than they would otherwise. Particularly this year as we try and blend all the newcomers into a winning team, we clearly have shown an inconsistency that a strong leader might have leveled off. Believe it or not, it's about the play, not about the record.
I don't agree that in general, good leaders get other guys on the team to perform better. What leaders do is help prevent teammates from say not practicing hard, not playing hard in games, to not hang their heads if some guys are struggling, and/or prevent certain players from playing selfish ball over team ball.
A good leader can't make guys shoot better, handle the ball better, or play bigger than is in their skillset.
Marquette is struggling right now IMO not because of some leadership vacuum, but instead mainly because of large amounts of inexperience on the roster, DJO badly struggling from the perimeter on a team that badly needs his jumper to fall, rebounding problems, and Junior plays well in stretches, but currently the team doesn't have a consistently reliable PG.
The PG position is very important in both college and pro ball, but it's so crucial in the college game, especially for a team like MU that has so many inexperienced players getting significant minutes. Put an experienced, high quality, and consistent PG like Jordan Taylor on Marquette and we are a completely different team for the better. I know that's a well duh statement, but MU badly needs Junior to speed up his development to where he can be counted on most night to provide 27-30 consistent minutes or more. That's why his injury last season was such a killer. Instead of Junior entering this year confident and the clear on court leader running the team from the PG spot, he's more like a freshman still trying to find his way on the court.
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 14, 2010, 10:41:22 PM
When I was flying CJ Falcons the best spot was slot 2 in a battle box. I love hitting gomers in the open.
Thanks for your service! Maybe you can teach our guys to hit some jumpers in the open!
Quote from: Ners on December 14, 2010, 10:57:23 PM
I'm suggesting that you can have good leadership, with good talent..and still not win games...as was the case in Travis Diener's Junior and Senior year. Think we all thought Travis to be a good leader, tough, and a competitor...but were the results very good? No.
And...are you really suggesting that this thread would even be occuring if we'd beaten say Wisconsin and Gonzaga?? No way does this thread exist. Furthermore...unless this "strong leader" can morph into the DJO of 2009-2010, and shoot it like the 2009-2010 edition of DJO did...I don't care how strong of leader he might be..it wouldn't be enough to get the team past 5 and 3 point defeats to Wisconsin and Gonzaga where DJO shot a combined 25% from the field.
I never suggested that a good leader couldn't be on a bad team. As for Diener, let's not forget his injury in his senior season. The team went 17-6 with him in the lineup but only 2-6 without him. But it seems you suggest that winning solves everything. That approach is disastrous. Great teams never ignore the flaws that exist in every team and game. To suggest that the leadership issue arose only because of losses is to ignore the team lack of floor leadership. Are discussions about our lack of rebounding only here because of the losses?
In the end, you feel DJO would be having the same struggles if Zar were still here. I disagree. Perhaps it wouldn't be enough to win some games we've lost this year. But perhaps it would. This team lacks the consistency needed to be an impact team in the BE. That seldom was a problem last year and I attribute much of that to Hayward's effect. He made the team better by his presence. Regrettably, I don't see Butler being that type guy.
Quote from: DaCoach on December 15, 2010, 12:43:46 PM
In the end, you feel DJO would be having the same struggles if Zar were still here. I disagree. Perhaps it wouldn't be enough to win some games we've lost this year. But perhaps it would. This team lacks the consistency needed to be an impact team in the BE. That seldom was a problem last year and I attribute much of that to Hayward's effect. He made the team better by his presence. Regrettably, I don't see Butler being that type guy.
How did Hayward make the team better by his "presense?" That's just silly. He made the team better because he was NBA first round pick talent. It was his inside/outside offensive game, his ability to guard big, and his ability to rebound that made the team better.
I think a big reason that DJO is struggling this year is simply because he is now scoring option #1 or #2, whereas last year he was often option #3 or #4. Maybe he just has trouble mentally accepting that fact...or maybe he was just very hot last year and is reverting back to his norm. But I think we are missing Zar's talent more than anything else.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 15, 2010, 12:55:41 PM
How did Hayward make the team better by his "presense?" That's just silly. He made the team better because he was NBA first round pick talent. It was his inside/outside offensive game, his ability to guard big, and his ability to rebound that made the team better.
I think a big reason that DJO is struggling this year is simply because he is now scoring option #1 or #2, whereas last year he was often option #3 or #4. Maybe he just has trouble mentally accepting that fact...or maybe he was just very hot last year and is reverting back to his norm. But I think we are missing Zar's talent more than anything else.
Zar's leadership would have willed in at least 1-2 of DJO's 3s per game.
Sarcasm aside, I agree with Sultan. While Lazar was a great leader, he was also an outstanding player. That's what MU misses more than anything else. Put Zar back on this team, even without Acker and Cubillan, and this team likely beats Gonzaga and Wisco...and it wouldn't have been because of his leadership.
As far as DJO is concerned, I think that he got off to slow start and his confidence is shaken. Instead of just catching and shooting, he looks like he's tense and aiming his shots. Just from watching his body language after some of his shots, it just looks like he's
really, really hoping that the shot goes in. He just doesn't look like the same confident player as last season.
Quote from: DaCoach on December 15, 2010, 12:43:46 PM
But it seems you suggest that winning solves everything. That approach is disastrous. Great teams never ignore the flaws that exist in every team and game. To suggest that the leadership issue arose only because of losses is to ignore the team lack of floor leadership. Are discussions about our lack of rebounding only here because of the losses?
In the end, you feel DJO would be having the same struggles if Zar were still here. I disagree. Perhaps it wouldn't be enough to win some games we've lost this year. But perhaps it would. This team lacks the consistency needed to be an impact team in the BE. That seldom was a problem last year and I attribute much of that to Hayward's effect. He made the team better by his presence. Regrettably, I don't see Butler being that type guy.
Sorry..but I disagree entirely. Perhaps you are the type of fan who will find something to complain about even if his team in undefeated. It was seems ridiculous to suggest that the approach of winning solves everything is disasterous. Really? Ever been on a team that was said to have "bad chemistry," but then it starts winning..and all of a sudden the chemistry becomes good, no more finger pointing, etc.?
Lastly someone's "presence" largely has to do with the talent and skill set they bring to the floor..and what that talent translates nito in terms..in terms of how it makes the game easier for the other players on the team. See D-Wade. Perhaps see Lazar Hayward...but to suggest it is his "leadership" that was responsible for the team winning more/or being better..is just wrong. You could say that you believe Lazar is a bettter all-around player than Jimmy..and as a result the team is struggling...but to suggest it is leadership as for why we are struggling...in my opinion..that is the LEAST of our problems. DJO getting back on track and shoring up the rebounding are the 2 most critical to this team playing winning basketball.
Quote from: Ners on December 15, 2010, 01:16:09 PM
Sorry..but I disagree entirely. Perhaps you are the type of fan who will find something to complain about even if his team in undefeated. It was seems ridiculous to suggest that the approach of winning solves everything is disasterous. Really? Ever been on a team that was said to have "bad chemistry," but then it starts winning..and all of a sudden the chemistry becomes good, no more finger pointing, etc.?
Lastly someone's "presence" largely has to do with the talent and skill set they bring to the floor..and what that talent translates nito in terms..in terms of how it makes the game easier for the other players on the team. See D-Wade. Perhaps see Lazar Hayward...but to suggest it is his "leadership" that was responsible for the team winning more/or being better..is just wrong. You could say that you believe Lazar is a bettter all-around player than Jimmy..and as a result the team is struggling...but to suggest it is leadership as for why we are struggling...in my opinion..that is the LEAST of our problems. DJO getting back on track and shoring up the rebounding are the 2 most critical to this team playing winning basketball.
Again, I never suggested that leadership alone wins ball games. But I am of the firm opinion that most all great teams have someone who they look to for inspiration. Not to dismiss Hayward's abilities on the court, but clearly the team looked to him for leadership. It was mentioned time and again by players, coaches and fans. So how can you dismiss that element of his effect on last year's team. It's also been said on many occasions that Butler had the mantle of leadership passed to him. Of course DJO is having a terrible year and our rebounding isn't adequate. But it's my opinion that the mere presence of Zar would inspire this team to rebound more ferociously and even reassure DJO that he is expected to pick up his game.
Quote from: Ners on December 15, 2010, 01:16:09 PMYou could say that you believe Lazar is a bettter all-around player than Jimmy..and as a result the team is struggling...but to suggest it is leadership as for why we are struggling...in my opinion..that is the LEAST of our problems.
I really think this is a bit unfair to Jimmy. The comparison shouldn't be Lazar and Jimmy, because Jimmy is still being asked to play the same role he did last year. Granted, his role would be expected to expand as a senior, but no one expected Jimmy to suddenly become a go-to guy from three-point range or to defend big men in the post like Lazar did.
Jimmy's ability is really not what should be questioned, but more the guys around him. Jimmy's numbers are very similar to what they were last year. The problem is more that he doesn't have the support Lazar did. Hayward had Butler, an on-the-mark DJO, and two reliable senior point guards. Butler has an off-the-mark DJO and a number of guys that have yet to step in as consistent options on either the offensive or defensive ends. While we only lost three major contributors, this is clearly not even remotely the same team we had last year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2010, 03:49:22 PM
I really think this is a bit unfair to Jimmy. The comparison shouldn't be Lazar and Jimmy, because Jimmy is still being asked to play the same role he did last year. Granted, his role would be expected to expand as a senior, but no one expected Jimmy to suddenly become a go-to guy from three-point range or to defend big men in the post like Lazar did.
Jimmy's ability is really not what should be questioned, but more the guys around him. Jimmy's numbers are very similar to what they were last year. The problem is more that he doesn't have the support Lazar did. Hayward had Butler, an on-the-mark DJO, and two reliable senior point guards. Butler has an off-the-mark DJO and a number of guys that have yet to step in as consistent options on either the offensive or defensive ends. While we only lost three major contributors, this is clearly not even remotely the same team we had last year.
Very good analysis..agree 100%..and the bolded part 1000%
Quote from: DaCoach on December 14, 2010, 09:47:20 PM
If you're going to take my words out of context, you obviously have few facts to present. I said After Michael left, Pippen was never able to assume a good leadership role on the teams he played for. That's not the same as calling him bad.I suppose
Pippen, in his 2 years without Jordan, was dumped in the 2nd round of playoffs. They were one crappy foul away from going to the conference finals. On a team that just lost the best player of all time and hadn't picked up rodman yet. Who was the 3rd best player on that team? And there was only 1 playoffs without jordan, he came back for year 2.In his only year with the Rocketsso was jordan a bad leader based on his time with the wizards?, the team lost in the 1st round.
In his 4 years with Portland, which he joined after finishing 1st in the Pacific the prior year, they never made it out of the 1st round 3 years straight. He hurt his back in his 2nd year there that is why his stats dived.No evidence of great leadership based upon those results.
your standards are out crazy high for calling someone a good leader. He made it past the first round of the playoffs a few times and never missed the playoffs. There are plenty of people who have had similar success but are considered great leaders. (ie. Nash)
Pippen doesn't get any respect!
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 14, 2010, 11:13:05 PM
I heard Chicos has gerbils squirming down his chimney
Not since I gave them up for Lent earlier in the year.
Quote from: RawdogDX on December 15, 2010, 04:22:36 PM
Pippen doesn't get any respect!
He's a top 50 of all time guy. Those in the know respect Scottie.