Some chatter recently on the success of recruiting under Tom Crean at Indiana lately. This article illustrates just what is going on..it is borderline sleazy...but...apparently within the rules..but..ahem..it does make me squirm:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=5750525
From the article:
The Hoosiers ties with Indiana Elite run in the family. Adams is the coach of the squad and his son Drew is a former Elite coach and current video coordinator under Crean. Mike Barnett is on the board of directors for Indiana Elite and his son Kory is a walk-on forward for the Hoosiers. Remember that Bloomington Red team that fed Knight's IU program? Well, one of the coaches was Criss Beyers who is a board member for the Indiana Elite squad. Bob Pryor, the former head coach of Bloomington Red, skippers one of Indiana Elite's younger teams.
Over/under on posts pertaining to this topic or offshoots of it? 85 feels about right. In the down days of summer I would venture about 130.
I'm squirming too.
I'm missing the problem, I guess.
This isn't like Bo at Wisconsin having his son and a Wisconsn coach start and coach an AAU team? That seems sleezy.
At Indiana it seems like there are connections, but a little more distant and people involved with the AAU program having sons walking on. I don't see the problem, I guess.
As uncomfortably close as those ties seem, I'll admit I'd be pretty pleased if suddenly we got an influx of Wisconsin Playground Warriors players in the next couple years like Nolan, Tokoto, and Koenig (all still listed on the WPW roster). I'd be curious to see how many other high-majors have similar ties. Just curious if Indiana is an exception, or if these types of relations are becoming the rule.
The "sleazy" part is this is pretty much the same thing as hiring an AAU coach to get a player, worse if you factor that the pipeline still exists to players. Many have squirmed about that practice or the thought of Buzz doing it. Family money is family money, if a son gets it, there is nothing to prevent the dad from using it (unless its in your agenda to bring out tax codes for gifts within the family). My personal opinion is I don't really care... I would love to get a connection like that to the Irvin family, but I'm a part of the just win baby crowd (bend but don't break the rules). I just want to see how people would defend these actions who have been opposed to similar actions in the past.
I believe this type of thing is becoming more of a trend, but as the article states..IU is taking it to a new level, as far as % of their kids coming from 1 AAU program. Where it gets a little sleazy is when you hire the son of the coach of said AAU team to be your "video coordinator," and then offer a walk on position to one of the AAU teams Board of Directors sons.
So, not sure if I'd call it great recruiting per se...but..you have an AAU program that really wants kids to stay in Indiana..and with IU being the premier name in Indiana basketball over time..this AAU team wants to steer its best players to beloved IU (instead of perhaps Purdue or Butler.)
I know there is nothing wrong with it, but the Summer League program was essentially a MU program not run by MU. From the outside that looks wrong to me. There is so much grey area in college basketball that its hard to throw stones.
They aren't taking it to a new level other than getting more guys that want to play for IU. The Elite program has been around a long time, the problem was that kids didn't want to stay home, now they do. This is just another reason why you take a job like that, because you have a feeder system into the big state school.
And to answer another poster's question, yes, many of the top schools have it. Michigan State, UCLA, Duke, etc, etc. That's what they get for being top schools. These feeder programs basically say if you play for them, you have a great shot to play for one of the big boys. That's the lure and that's the benefit of coaching at one of the bluebloods of college hoops.
If this makes you squirm, you would really squirm over some of the stories......nevermind....trust me, this is nothing to squirm about in comparison to real squirmy activity.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on November 01, 2010, 07:54:02 PM
I know there is nothing wrong with it, but the Summer League program was essentially a MU program not run by MU. From the outside that looks wrong to me. There is so much grey area in college basketball that its hard to throw stones.
The summer league didn't feature high school or even middle school players...the only players allowed were current NCAA players, past NCAA/NAIA players, or professionals. Pretty sure you can't recruit any of those types to come play at MU.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 07:54:23 PM
They aren't taking it to a new level other than getting more guys that want to play for IU. The Elite program has been around a long time, the problem was that kids didn't want to stay home, now they do.
If this makes you squirm, you would really squirm over some of the stories......nevermind....trust me, this is nothing to squirm about in comparison to real squirmy activity.
Actually, I think it's time for you to share with everyone here at Scoop just what Buzz and MU have done that really makes you squirm? No more excuse making Chicos. Be a man and put it out there..enough of the little girl insinuations.
Quote from: Ners on November 01, 2010, 07:57:44 PM
Actually, I think it's time for you to share with everyone here at Scoop just what Buzz and MU have done that really makes you squirm? No more excuse making Chicos. Be a man and put it out there..enough of the little girl insinuations.
Agreed. Let's hear it.
Quote from: Ners on November 01, 2010, 07:57:44 PM
Actually, I think it's time for you to share with everyone here at Scoop just what Buzz and MU have done that really makes you squirm? No more excuse making Chicos. Be a man and put it out there..enough of the little girl insinuations.
I'm glad you think it's time for sharing. I've hinted enough and I'm not going any further with it. Don't like it, too bad.
By the way, loved this thread, kind of funny. It screams that you've been wrong this whole time and now you want to come up with an excuse to quantify how your arch villain is somehow doing well now. Good grief man, LET IT GO. MOVEON.ORG He's gone. He ain't coaching here anymore.
Quote from: Ners on November 01, 2010, 07:57:44 PM
Actually, I think it's time for you to share with everyone here at Scoop just what Buzz and MU have done that really makes you squirm? No more excuse making Chicos. Be a man and put it out there..enough of the little girl insinuations.
Quote from: MUfan12 on November 01, 2010, 07:59:39 PM
Agreed. Let's hear it.
Question...why would you want Chicos putting those stories out on public message boards? It doesnt make much sense to me.
I've heard some good recruiting stories myself. None of which I will ever put out for the public to see. It just doesnt make sense to do it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 08:00:51 PM
I'm glad you think it's time for sharing. I've hinted enough and I'm not going any further with it. Don't like it, too bad.
By the way, loved this thread, kind of funny. It screams that you've been wrong this whole time and now you want to come up with an excuse to quantify how your arch villain is somehow doing well now. Good grief man, LET IT GO. MOVEON.ORG He's gone. He ain't coaching here anymore.
Just to be clear, could you state if you believe Buzz operates in violation of NCAA rules? Or does he operate within rules, and just go in the grey area that may seem sleazy to the outsider?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 08:00:51 PM
By the way, loved this thread, kind of funny. It screams that you've been wrong this whole time and now you want to come up with an excuse to quantify how your arch villain is somehow doing well now. Good grief man, LET IT GO. MOVEON.ORG He's gone. He ain't coaching here anymore.
This line of thinking caught me as well. Not necessarily with Ners per se but with other fans in general: I wonder how long it will be for those who complained about Crean not getting it done at Indiana to now complain about the way he is now getting it done.
But, really, the main question is do Indiana fans give a crap? If not, this is irrelevant. Just ask Josh Pastner and the Memphis Magic (or something like that).
Buckley knows the state well too from his days at Ball State and has close local ties including Chicago. McLeod almost tanked CTC before he was axed...closed the Hurley network to IU but he was a major mistake of a hire. McClain was a great replacement to steady the teaching and development...plus his network in the west, south and JUCO. All about "connections" but I am sure the Red Rodents to the West will claim everyone else is "shady". This is how it is done.
TC has done a great job this offseason in-state. His job futures and mental health were on the line after last season. IU is still a mish-mash of a roster this season. Walk-on Danny Moore dominated their H'ween scrimmage. 8th place is the high water mark.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 08:00:51 PM
I'm glad you think it's time for sharing. I've hinted enough and I'm not going any further with it. Don't like it, too bad.
By the way, loved this thread, kind of funny. It screams that you've been wrong this whole time and now you want to come up with an excuse to quantify how your arch villain is somehow doing well now. Good grief man, LET IT GO. MOVEON.ORG He's gone. He ain't coaching here anymore.
What I find funny is that you are notorious for posting every article or link pertaining to/praising Tom Crean and his "recruiting successes," yet for some ironic reason...you failed to provide the link to this very article?? Gee..I wonder why??
My issue isn't with Tom Crean..it's with you and your veiled attempts to discredit the way our current coach goes about his business...whether that is him recruiting JUCO's, how he recruits, whatever it is. Yet..here we have your boy Tom Crean hiring an AAU coaches son to be video coordinator, giving a walk on spot to one of the AAU programs Board of Directors...and no outrage from you? No mentions of this making you squirm? Nonetheless, the only reason I'd enjoy seeing Tom Crean fail..is to shut you up. Period.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 08:00:51 PM
I'm glad you think it's time for sharing. I've hinted enough and I'm not going any further with it. Don't like it, too bad.
By the way, loved this thread, kind of funny. It screams that you've been wrong this whole time and now you want to come up with an excuse to quantify how your arch villain is somehow doing well now. Good grief man, LET IT GO. MOVEON.ORG He's gone. He ain't coaching here anymore.
No offense, but are you really telling ANYONE to "move on" or "let it go"? About anything? I know you're a big fan of irony. You advising people on the merits of "moving on" and "letting things go" is the absolute height of it.
*yawn*
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on November 01, 2010, 08:55:40 PM
This line of thinking caught me as well. Not necessarily with Ners per se but with other fans in general: I wonder how long it will be for those who complained about Crean not getting it done at Indiana to now complain about the way he is now getting it done.
But, really, the main question is do Indiana fans give a crap? If not, this is irrelevant. Just ask Josh Pastner and the Memphis Magic (or something like that).
Yes, IU fans give a big crap. Very conservative state and extremely upset with how Sampson sullied the program and university. They do care.
Of course fans were going to start down the "he must be cheating" angle that Ners went. Of course, if he has to cheat at IU, imagine what cheating he had to do at Marquette. Because isn't it obvious, all these kids are simply robots (along with their families) and would only go to a school where they have hired the video coordinator from the AAU team so they can hang out for the next four years.
Seriously, you sometimes can't make this stuff up...but Ners, I do enjoy reading your stuff.
Quote from: dw3dw3dw3 on November 01, 2010, 08:52:02 PM
Just to be clear, could you state if you believe Buzz operates in violation of NCAA rules? Or does he operate within rules, and just go in the grey area that may seem sleazy to the outsider?
Just to be clear, I said that there are things that make me squirm and I've listed SOME of them.
Signing a kid to a National Letter of Intent and then dumping him a few weeks later for another player, that makes me squirm.
Recruiting kids after they have already verbally committed to other schools, that makes me squirm.
Etc.
Are those against the rules....nope. Are AAU kids going to a college against the rules? Nope. That makes Ners squirm. Some of things that we've done makes me squirm. It's a squirmfest.
Of course there are some other things as well that make me squirm....just as Dwyane Wade videos at IU make people here squirm. Go figure.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 11:17:22 PM
Of course there are some other things as well that make me squirm....just as Dwyane Wade videos at IU make people here squirm. Go figure.
Coach Cal also did a video for IU and his buddy....that makes me squirm ;D
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 01, 2010, 11:26:31 PM
Coach Cal also did a video for IU and his buddy....that makes me squirm ;D
Billy Gillespie was at our practices helping out his buddy...that makes me squirm ;)
Crean coaching MU made me squirm.
Quote from: Ners on November 01, 2010, 07:45:43 PM
I believe this type of thing is becoming more of a trend, but as the article states..IU is taking it to a new level, as far as % of their kids coming from 1 AAU program. Where it gets a little sleazy is when you hire the son of the coach of said AAU team to be your "video coordinator," and then offer a walk on position to one of the AAU teams Board of Directors sons.
Honestly, this doesn't bother me all that much. In the end, if the kid choses IU out of free-will and without getting paid off, I have no problem with this.
And I'm with Chicos on this. I would much rather Buzz develop a similar AAU feeder-program than drop kids from NLIs.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 07:54:23 PM
If this makes you squirm, you would really squirm over some of the stories......nevermind....trust me, this is nothing to squirm about in comparison to real squirmy activity.
In other words, (read in a schoolgirl, sing-song manner) "I know something you don't know! I know something you don't know! Ha ha ha-ha ha!"
When will you ever give up this same, tired act, Chicos?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 07:54:23 PM
If this makes you squirm, you would really squirm over some of the stories......nevermind....trust me, this is nothing to squirm about in comparison to real squirmy activity.
Wow. How incredibly weak. Weak isn't even the word...Pathetic is more like it. If you are truly that uncomfortable with the things Buzz does, have a love for MU, and are the upstanding moral guy your position yourself as, then please for the sake of the entire MU community, bring the despicable acts into the light of day. Otherwise, you are doing nothing more than tacitly endorsing the activities and playing a role in the denigration of MU's program.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 11:17:22 PM
Just to be clear, I said that there are things that make me squirm and I've listed SOME of them.
Signing a kid to a National Letter of Intent and then dumping him a few weeks later for another player, that makes me squirm.
Recruiting kids after they have already verbally committed to other schools, that makes me squirm.
Etc.
I'm assuming that the "Etc." is where the real squirmy activity must be, so please for the sake of all of us, let's have it! If not, well then you're just full of crap. Allowing a guy to sully the MU program is not something I'm good with, and I assume the same is true of most here, because if you really think DJ Newbill or recruiting after verbal commitments (as we all know those are always honored), are in any way worse than anything Crean ever did, let alone providing jobs/money to secure your recruiting pipeline, then once again your BS shines through brightly. So please, I beg of you, expose that creep, Buzz Williams, so we can get started cleaning up the program.
I can't believe its been 5 years already.
It is threads like this that make me check back here less and less. So wrong on both sides of the argument. One ego trying to call out another's ego. No one really thinking about what they are talking about. Blah blah blah.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 02, 2010, 07:53:53 AM
Honestly, this doesn't bother me all that much. In the end, if the kid choses IU out of free-will and without getting paid off, I have no problem with this.
And I'm with Chicos on this. I would much rather Buzz develop a similar AAU feeder-program than drop kids from NLIs.
Have to agree with Sultan & Chicos on this one. Dropping a kid from a NLI is worse than a feeder program in the moral scheme of things. I still like Buzz and think he has done an exceptional job but we are in no position to cast stones right now.
If this makes you squirm, you would really squirm over some of the stories......nevermind....trust me, this is nothing to squirm about in comparison to real squirmy activity.
Again, with fans with Chicos, do you really need Badger or Louisville fans?
There is a reason the NCAA has placed major restrictions on universities hiring AAU and even JUCO coaches - because they know they hold ALOT of influence over where a kid "chooses" to go to school. So..giving an AAU coaches son a job, and one of its Board of Directors sons a spot on the IU team as a walk on..is the next level...
Is this within the "rules?" It appears to be. That said..for the "camp" who comes here and alleges behavior by the current coaching staff at MU as making them "squirm," at minimum it is quite ironic. People in glass houses shouldn't cast stones. Lastly, is "oversigning" within the rules? Yes. Did we like what happened in the Newbill situation? No. Did we truly have all of the facts? Probably not.
End of story...but it is quite ironic that our resident stone caster failed to publish this particular article link on IU and Tom Crean...as we usually get every single article that praises Tom Crean posted here...but yet not this one?? Ironic.
End of story? Oh...OK....
My point is that college basketball is a cut-throat and shady business. To pretend that MU doesn't participate in some of this shadiness is simply wrong-headed.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 02, 2010, 12:39:39 AM
Billy Gillespie was at our practices helping out his buddy...that makes me squirm ;)
This sums up our differences on Buzz and TC. I like the guy who doesn't abandon a friend/mentor who struggles with an illness. For you, it's bad pr and it makes you squirm. I squirm if my coach's BFFs are college basketball's biggest convicted cheater (Sampson) and its biggest cheater still on the loose (Calipari). You don't.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on November 02, 2010, 09:33:21 AM
we are in no position to cast stones right now.
Yes we are!
I think TC is a douche, and therefore I will look for every chink in the armor to prove it to everybody here.
I can't wait for IU to start landing big time recruits so I can say that TC must be doing a lot more shady stuff.
All this squirming in making me, ... well, you know.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 02, 2010, 09:55:34 AM
End of story? Oh...OK....
My point is that college basketball is a cut-throat and shady business. To pretend that MU doesn't participate in some of this shadiness is simply wrong-headed.
I'm not the one trumpeting MU as this squeaky clean program per se...but I'm certainly not the one trying to cast stones and insinuate that our current coaching staff doesn't do things as "ethically" as the previous regime. Nor do I come on here and allege things about the Indiana program, "that make me squirm," but never share just exactly WHAT they are. That would just be cheesy and weak. I think everyone can agree that college basketball is a cut throat business....but let's not attack our current coaching staff with squirmy allegations, that one can only allege...through I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend...etc...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 02, 2010, 10:20:07 AM
I realize today is going to be a very long day for you...as I told you and others 2 years ago. I'd suggest you start drinking now and keep the change.
You predicted that a President's party was going to lose seats in a mid-term election!?!?!?!?!?!! How insightful!
Quote from: Ners on November 02, 2010, 09:49:46 AM
There is a reason the NCAA has placed major restrictions on universities hiring AAU and even JUCO coaches - because they know they hold ALOT of influence over where a kid "chooses" to go to school. So..giving an AAU coaches son a job, and one of its Board of Directors sons a spot on the IU team as a walk on..is the next level...
Is this within the "rules?" It appears to be. That said..for the "camp" who comes here and alleges behavior by the current coaching staff at MU as making them "squirm," at minimum it is quite ironic. People in glass houses shouldn't cast stones. Lastly, is "oversigning" within the rules? Yes. Did we like what happened in the Newbill situation? No. Did we truly have all of the facts? Probably not.
End of story...but it is quite ironic that our resident stone caster failed to publish this particular article link on IU and Tom Crean...as we usually get every single article that praises Tom Crean posted here...but yet not this one?? Ironic.
Ironic? Really. Actually I don't post articles about IU or TC on this board as a thread starter (or haven't in ages)...remember. It's you and the obsessed ones that do. For one, it should be on the SuperBar. Secondly, I can't remember the last thread topic I started about IU and nor would I....so really there is no irony at all. Perhaps you should look inward and ask why you keep on bringing him up and then don't act so surprised when people respond to your posts. That might be a start.
You said this makes you squirm, I provided things that make me squirm. What IU is doing is not only legal, it's sanctioned and has been going on forever at all the top schools. It used to be the elite camps, which MU had along with just about everyone else. It's changed.
But just to make sure I understand where you are coming from, IU is now getting these top players because they hired a video coordinator from the AAU team? Not because it's the flagship school of the state, has won 5 titles, their coach (love him or hate him) has put a few guys into the NBA and professionally in Europe, etc....no no, it's because they all want to play at IU to be with the video coordinator. You're precious Ners, you really are.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 02, 2010, 09:55:34 AM
End of story? Oh...OK....
My point is that college basketball is a cut-throat and shady business. To pretend that MU doesn't participate in some of this shadiness is simply wrong-headed.
You are a saboteur!!!
(http://levelupnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/The_SABOTEUR.jpg)
. I like the guy who doesn't abandon a friend/mentor who struggles with an illness. For you, it's bad pr and it makes you squirm.
Lenny did i miss something here? could you enlighten me on this statement?
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on November 02, 2010, 01:55:41 PM
. I like the guy who doesn't abandon a friend/mentor who struggles with an illness. For you, it's bad pr and it makes you squirm.
Lenny did i miss something here? could you enlighten me on this statement?
I admire Buzz for sticking by a friend struggling with alcoholism (Gillespie).
I hate Crean as much as the next guy but I think people are over reacting to this. There have been close ties between AAu teams and schools for a long time. The swing and Wisconsin etc etc. the beginning of the article even names a number of other programs like this. It is not that big of a deal.
The majority of the kids have a desire to attend the state school anyway. The swing kids were Badger fans before they even knew what basketball is ...same with Indiana Elite. I am very familiar with Indiana Elite and yes the majority of the guys are IU fans or IU grads etc. Well holy moses an AAU basketball program that has a bunch of IU fans and grads involved....go figure!! of course they are going to favor IU. Happens in programs everywhere. Those are the same kids that have attended IU for years. bloomington Red is a perfect example, these are kids growing up in the shadows of bloomington and IU was good then.
This is no different than when Brian Butch signs with Wisconsin or Faust signs with MAryland...the hometown school has alot of advantages. Bottom line is the basketball world is a small world and most everyone knows each other. Likes and dislikes and pursuasions etc. are going to be a part of it ...always have always will
The problem with it for Mu is Wisconsin is arguably the worst stae in the country for HS basketball talent while Indiana has 5-10 four and 5 star players a year.
In fact Crean did have a pipelin similar to this built with Larry Butler and the Illinois Warriors until his boorish behavior and complete jack assishness burnt that bridge.
One last question when everyone wants to bring up abandoning players that signed NLI's...have you forgotten the best player on the Duquesne team , whom will most likely get drafte into the NBA this year and where he signed his NLI to? Does anyone remeber how that went down...when he was severed only days before school started and was left scrambing/
Comparing Buzz to crean and using the NLI card is the pot calling the kettle black.
Saunders was the final member of MUs' four-player recruiting class for 2007-'08, joining Scott Christopherson, Patrick Hazel and Trevor Mbakwe.
It pains me just to think about what the total contribution was from that class. Really hurts that none of those guys panned out.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 02, 2010, 05:36:53 AM
Crean coaching MU made me squirm.
Crean's habitual creaning of young men made me squirm
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on November 02, 2010, 02:12:05 PM
One last question when everyone wants to bring up abandoning players that signed NLI's...have you forgotten the best player on the Duquesne team , whom will most likely get drafte into the NBA this year and where he signed his NLI to? Does anyone remeber how that went down...when he was severed only days before school started and was left scrambing/
Comparing Buzz to crean and using the NLI card is the pot calling the kettle black.
Yeah, but that kid had academic issues.
You know, the kind that are discovered just before classes start, but apparently aren't serious enough to keep a kid from playing right away elsewhere. And conveniently arise when your team is oversigned.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 02, 2010, 01:59:45 PM
I admire Buzz for sticking by a friend struggling with alcoholism (Gillespie).
ya no kidding i think myself and about 99.9% of people that follow the game would perfer their coach call the former UK coach a friend than the present.
Quote from: mugrad2006 on November 02, 2010, 02:24:17 PM
Saunders was the final member of MUs' four-player recruiting class for 2007-'08, joining Scott Christopherson, Patrick Hazel and Trevor Mbakwe.
It pains me just to think about what the total contribution was from that class. Really hurts that none of those guys panned out.
Actually Suanders panned out quite well potential A10 POY and possible NBA draft pik. Sadly that class was not out of the ordinary, in fact a Crean class that had more than 1 or 2 players stay 4 years was out of the ordinary. I beleive Brandon bells class was 5 strong and none made it to Junior year.
How has this entire thread not been deleted by moderators....must be on lunch break. Everyone is just attacking each other over mostly rumors and half-truths without having all the information to even have a solid position.
Quote from: dw3dw3dw3 on November 01, 2010, 05:44:13 PM
Over/under on posts pertaining to this topic or offshoots of it? 85 feels about right. In the down days of summer I would venture about 130.
I'm squirming too.
pretty solid predicition, almost there
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 02, 2010, 01:59:45 PM
I admire Buzz for sticking by a friend struggling with alcoholism (Gillespie).
I admire him also for doing that, but you obviously missed the bigger picture on that one.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 02, 2010, 09:55:34 AM
End of story? Oh...OK....
My point is that college basketball is a cut-throat and shady business. To pretend that MU doesn't participate in some of this shadiness is simply wrong-headed.
Seems to me that in today's world of AAU ball and college basketball so intertwined, if college coaches don't push things to the edge without doing things that are technically against the rules, they'll often be left behind by coaches that will.
College coaches need to do tons of back scratching and ass kissing of successful AAU programs, then also make kids feel that they should join our college basketball program.
Crean is now the head coach in a state that regularly churns out numerous 4-5 star recruits. A kid at the level of say Vander Blue coming out of a Wisconsin high school is a big deal and feels like a must get for a UW or Marquette because it's easier to get recruits to stay close to home than to go out of state and get a recruit to come to a school far away. That's a big reason why Crean left. Indiana not only has more more tradition, that state is vastly superior to Wisconsin as a recruiting base. It's partly why Hoosier fans place such high demands on the head coaches, figuring that if those coaches can't recruit well with a recruiting base like Indiana to start off with, it's time for them to go.
Now it looks like Crean is finally having some recruiting success at keeping high end Indiana kids to stay home. We'll see if it leads to winning games in the Big Ten. Crean wouldn't have got those kids to come here if he was still at Marquette.
I don't like how he left and thus enjoyed for awhile his failures at Indiana, but by now don't care anymore. I'd much rather have Buzz here at Marquette than Crean, so i'm glad Tommy went to Indiana. If he starts winning there or keeps losing, i'll just yawn either way. Crean ended up doing MU a favor by quitting, it brought us Buzz.
Quote from: El Duderino on November 03, 2010, 12:38:12 AM
Now it looks like Crean is finally having some recruiting success at keeping high end Indiana kids to stay home. We'll see if it leads to winning games in the Big Ten.
And therein lies the problem, it's still two more years before these kids get on campus. Will IU put up with two more losing seasons so that Crean can get his prize recruits on campus (which most think he should have gotten already)? Chicos says yes. I say no. Only time will tell.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 03, 2010, 01:01:33 AM
And therein lies the problem, it's still two more years before these kids get on campus. Will IU put up with two more losing seasons so that Crean can get his prize recruits on campus (which most think he should have gotten already)? Chicos says yes. I say no. Only time will tell.
It's not just me, it's the IU folks that matter that say it. I don't know why this is so hard to process.
I look forward to winning the bet
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 03, 2010, 01:01:33 AM
And therein lies the problem, it's still two more years before these kids get on campus. Will IU put up with two more losing seasons so that Crean can get his prize recruits on campus (which most think he should have gotten already)? Chicos says yes. I say no. Only time will tell.
I think if he can string together a couple of really good recruiting classes, IU will let Crean stick around to see if he can coach those higher end recruits to success on the court, even if Indiana struggles again this year and somewhat the following year. I would if i ran Indiana because if they fired Crean after say this year or the following year, that can cause more turmoil as some potentially good young players transfer because they weren't recruited by the new coach coming in.
Obviously though it was crucial for Crean to have finally started to have better success recruiting as he's done so far of late because more losing this year without the promise of incoming high end talent would likely have meant the end for Crean.
Plus, the Big Ten IMO has improved of late by better coaches joining the conference between Tubby, Matta, and Painter to join Izzo, Ryan, and Weber. For Crean to have any hope of not continuing to be a bottom feeder or say 6th-8th place team, he badly needed to significantly improve his recruiting.
I never thought Crean was anything special as a bench and X's/O's coach, but he's good enough if he can continue to land 4-5 star kids largely from Indiana.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 03, 2010, 01:01:33 AM
And therein lies the problem, it's still two more years before these kids get on campus. Will IU put up with two more losing seasons so that Crean can get his prize recruits on campus (which most think he should have gotten already)? Chicos says yes. I say no. Only time will tell.
Put me in the "yes" column as well.
IU fans love winning, but Crean is an excellent salesman, so he will continue to "sell" the idea that IU is doing things the "right way" and that the wins will come.
IU fans are conceited about winning, but also conceited that their program does things the "right way". Crean is accomplishing the latter, and will continue to promise the former.
That will buy him the 2 years you refer to. After that, he'll need some wins to back up the hype. He might be gone in 3 or 4 years... but he won't be gone in 2.
I recall saying several months ago that the next 12-18 months would be critical, not as much on the court (although he is going to need to start winning some games), but with recruiting. With the 2012 class looking solid, I think ts safe to say he bought himself some rope. Assuming they all show up, etc., he will be fine for a few years yet. Take a player or two out of that class, and he would/will be toast.
He didn't buy himself any rope as there was no rope needed to buy. Again, why is this so difficult for some of you? The university has a 10 year plan on this and EVERYONE that is of consequence knows how long it's going to take. He most certainly isn't toast if one of these kids doesn't show up.
Don't let the hatorade cloud the reality of what their plan is.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 09:28:45 AM
He didn't buy himself any rope as there was no rope needed to buy. Again, why is this so difficult for some of you? The university has a 10 year plan on this and EVERYONE that is of consequence knows how long it's going to take. He most certainly isn't toast if one of these kids doesn't show up.
Don't let the hatorade cloud the reality of what their plan is.
I WANT to believe that, because it does sound probable.
But, let's face it, if he had another bad season without some strong prospects on the horizon, the grumblings with the IU fanatics would start.
If the fans start to turn on him, the grumblings could become loud enough in the next 2-3 years that IU would be forced to make a change before the 10 year plan is fully executed.
Every school has a "10 year plan", but things have to go correctly in the first 5 years in order to reach the second 5 years.
I don't think a University president and AD would brave the slings and arrows for 5 or 6 years of poor performance if Crean wasn't showing some progress (which the new recruiting class does).
The people of consequence can have all the 10 year plans they want, but if the real people of consequence, those who pay the bills, get restless enough, they are going to have no choice but to come up with a new plan. I would suggest at this point that is unlikely, but as I said if that class of 2012 doesn't quite come together, they lose other players, or something like that and they continue to lose games with regularity they aren't going to stick with a guy doing a bad job against high expectations, simply because the current plan calls for them to do so. Having a 10 year plan is great, but if the reality of their plan is that they have a bad plan, they will need to make changes.
BTW, Kelvin Sampson, or no Kelvin Sampson, if it takes 10 years to turn around Indiana, a place where he will be able to land many more consistent classes then at MU for all the obvious reasons, then frankly, he sucks. I thought we were supposed to be able to judge coaches after 5 years anyway. Cripes, Baylor was in the NCAA tournament 4 years after that nightmare, and IU's problems weren't anywhere close to what happened there. Not to mention the inherent differences of Baylor vs. IU.
St. John's is already better than IU, can DePaul be far behind?
Quote from: dw3dw3dw3 on November 01, 2010, 08:52:02 PM
Just to be clear, could you state if you believe Buzz operates in violation of NCAA rules? Or does he operate within rules, and just go in the grey area that may seem sleazy to the outsider?
This is a great question, since now I am told by a poster here that there are a good 10-20 people on this board who are well aware of the stupid things Buzz has done in the past year or so, yet they sit idly by while Buzz puts MU's program at risk, or so they would have you believe with their veiled accusations and innuendo.
If you are aware of recruiting violations, and you care about MU's program, you have a responsibility to bring that information forward so it can be dealt with. If the guys is a scum bag, I have no doubt, almost everyone would like to know about it and get him out of here.
If you are not aware of NCAA violations, but have heard unsubstantiated rumors, or have an issue with things Buzz has done that everyone already knows about, then you have a responsibility to shut the hell up, and quit with your childish veiled references in a not so veiled attempt to discredit the guy, I assume because of some sort of jealousy or disappointment in the upgrade he has been over our previous coach.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 11:17:22 PM
Just to be clear, I said that there are things that make me squirm and I've listed SOME of them.
Signing a kid to a National Letter of Intent and then dumping him a few weeks later for another player, that makes me squirm.
Recruiting kids after they have already verbally committed to other schools, that makes me squirm.
Etc.
Are those against the rules....nope. Are AAU kids going to a college against the rules? Nope. That makes Ners squirm. Some of things that we've done makes me squirm. It's a squirmfest.
Of course there are some other things as well that make me squirm....just as Dwyane Wade videos at IU make people here squirm. Go figure.
I'm inspired. Instead of whiling away my hours on MUScoop, I'm going to invent a new dance called the squirm, do a Utube video, link it to a website with t-shirts and other merchandise, and become a millionaire.
See you later, suckers!!!!!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 09:28:45 AM
He didn't buy himself any rope as there was no rope needed to buy. Again, why is this so difficult for some of you? The university has a 10 year plan on this and EVERYONE that is of consequence knows how long it's going to take. He most certainly isn't toast if one of these kids doesn't show up.
Don't let the hatorade cloud the reality of what their plan is.
Wow. Even the comrades most loyal to the cause in Mother Russia wouldn't have put up with a 10 year plan. I know Rome wasn't built in one day, but c'mon.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on November 03, 2010, 10:08:07 AM
I WANT to believe that, because it does sound probable.
But, let's face it, if he had another bad season without some strong prospects on the horizon, the grumblings with the IU fanatics would start.
If the fans start to turn on him, the grumblings could become loud enough in the next 2-3 years that IU would be forced to make a change before the 10 year plan is fully executed.
Every school has a "10 year plan", but things have to go correctly in the first 5 years in order to reach the second 5 years.
I don't think a University president and AD would brave the slings and arrows for 5 or 6 years of poor performance if Crean wasn't showing some progress (which the new recruiting class does).
A disastrous season, yes...that changes things, but that's not going to happen unless they have another crippling injury. Trust me when I tell you he got a full pass last year because of the injury situation. They are showing a ton of progress and the reality of it is simple, they started from scratch (literally) and the powers over there are in it for the long haul.
They have some major talent coming in and more beyond in those classes.
The plan was simple and straight forward.
FIX the academic and off the court issue mess....Accomplished already (ahead of schedule)
Rebuild recruiting infrastructure in the state...Accomplished already (on schedule)
Become a post season team.....will happen this year with NIT or next at the latest (TBD)
Compete in upper division of Big Ten....TBD but expectations are year 5
Compete for Big Ten titles...TBD
I've even seen this talked about in terms of actual years to accomplish each of these. Based on what I've seen and talked to people abut, they are ahead of schedule in some facets and on schedule in others. Not behind in any of them.
Where did I hear or see this stuff? I don't think it would take much sleuth work to figure it out if you see who some of the power brokers are in the Big Ten Network, heads of some of the Sports networks and their IU connections \ connections to my industry. I'll leave it at that, but it's not hard to figure out.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on November 03, 2010, 10:11:04 AM
The people of consequence can have all the 10 year plans they want, but if the real people of consequence, those who pay the bills, get restless enough, they are going to have no choice but to come up with a new plan. I would suggest at this point that is unlikely, but as I said if that class of 2012 doesn't quite come together, they lose other players, or something like that and they continue to lose games with regularity they aren't going to stick with a guy doing a bad job against high expectations, simply because the current plan calls for them to do so. Having a 10 year plan is great, but if the reality of their plan is that they have a bad plan, they will need to make changes.
BTW, Kelvin Sampson, or no Kelvin Sampson, if it takes 10 years to turn around Indiana, a place where he will be able to land many more consistent classes then at MU for all the obvious reasons, then frankly, he sucks. I thought we were supposed to be able to judge coaches after 5 years anyway. Cripes, Baylor was in the NCAA tournament 4 years after that nightmare, and IU's problems weren't anywhere close to what happened there. Not to mention the inherent differences of Baylor vs. IU.
St. John's is already better than IU, can DePaul be far behind?
Nowhere did I say it took 10 years to turn IU around. I said they had a 10 year plan....completely different.
In fact, TOTALLY different. IU's 10 year plan is to contend for national championships. IU certainly plans on turning things around well before then.
St. John's is starting this year with 11 Seniors....IU started under Crean with 1 returning player, a walk-on who scored 8 career points. I hope you understand starting points.
St. John's wasn't on probation...IU was. St. John's has been in the doldrums for a long time and they are going to be allowed to take risks that IU was not allowed to the last few years....that will change as IU gets farther away from their scandal.
The vast number of IU fans are on cloud 9 right now knowing what is on the horizon. They will suffer through an 8th or 9th place finish this year and not bat an eye....that is the reality. Comparing IU's situation to Memphis, or St. John's or whatever is pointless because there are so many differences in where they started and what they were trying to accomplish.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 12:04:48 PM
A disastrous season, yes...that changes things, but that's not going to happen unless they have another crippling injury. Trust me when I tell you he got a full pass last year because of the injury situation. They are showing a ton of progress and the reality of it is simple, they started from scratch (literally) and the powers over there are in it for the long haul.
They have some major talent coming in and more beyond in those classes.
The plan was simple and straight forward.
FIX the academic and off the court issue mess....Accomplished already (ahead of schedule)
Rebuild recruiting infrastructure in the state...Accomplished already (on schedule)
Become a post season team.....will happen this year with NIT or next at the latest (TBD)
Compete in upper division of Big Ten....TBD but expectations are year 5
Compete for Big Ten titles...TBD
I've even seen this talked about in terms of actual years to accomplish each of these. Based on what I've seen and talked to people abut, they are ahead of schedule in some facets and on schedule in others. Not behind in any of them.
Where did I hear or see this stuff? I don't think it would take much sleuth work to figure it out if you see who some of the power brokers are in the Big Ten Network, heads of some of the Sports networks and their IU connections \ connections to my industry. I'll leave it at that, but it's not hard to figure out.
You really are a piece...precious. All of your soures are always in the closet, shadowy figures..but never really, revealed??? Why not just put it in writing Chicos? Why do we always have to do "sleuth work" to "figure it out?" Here's a reason why: Because what you write is complete b.s. and fabricated and cannot be corroborated.
Ners, you want to have a beer sometime and I'm happy to tell you, not on a message board. But you're right, someone that works daily with the Big Ten Network, Fox Sports, ESPN, the NCAA offices (located just up the road from IU), friends at the IndyStar and Bloomington Herald, or the dozen or so folks that I went to school there with that are in strong sports positions around the country and very connected to IU. Yup, you are right. You got me there. It's all made up. Illusions of grandeur
Next thing you know you'll be saying that kids are going to certain schools because they hired the AAU assistant coach as a video coordinator...oh wait.
Let's have that beer Ners. We can talk about the Cowboys, Marquette and your other favorite topic...IU. Maybe we can drive down to Plymouth and get some stock tips and talk Angus with the Black Swan \ Canadian Dimes. It will be a hoot.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 12:04:48 PM
A disastrous season, yes...that changes things, but that's not going to happen unless they have another crippling injury. Trust me when I tell you he got a full pass last year because of the injury situation. They are showing a ton of progress and the reality of it is simple, they started from scratch (literally) and the powers over there are in it for the long haul.
They have some major talent coming in and more beyond in those classes.
The plan was simple and straight forward.
FIX the academic and off the court issue mess....Accomplished already (ahead of schedule)
Rebuild recruiting infrastructure in the state...Accomplished already (on schedule)
Become a post season team.....will happen this year with NIT or next at the latest (TBD)
Compete in upper division of Big Ten....TBD but expectations are year 5
Compete for Big Ten titles...TBD
I've even seen this talked about in terms of actual years to accomplish each of these. Based on what I've seen and talked to people abut, they are ahead of schedule in some facets and on schedule in others. Not behind in any of them.
Where did I hear or see this stuff? I don't think it would take much sleuth work to figure it out if you see who some of the power brokers are in the Big Ten Network, heads of some of the Sports networks and their IU connections \ connections to my industry. I'll leave it at that, but it's not hard to figure out.
Totally fair.
I still think he's going to get it right down there... but I know that a lot of people on this board are going to hate me for saying that.
I just think the guy is a workoholic with a big ego and a big budget. That program will win... just a question of how much, and if they can win in the tournament.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 12:04:48 PM
A disastrous season, yes...that changes things, but that's not going to happen unless they have another crippling injury. Trust me when I tell you he got a full pass last year because of the injury situation. They are showing a ton of progress and the reality of it is simple, they started from scratch (literally) and the powers over there are in it for the long haul.
They have some major talent coming in and more beyond in those classes.
The plan was simple and straight forward.
FIX the academic and off the court issue mess....Accomplished already (ahead of schedule)
Rebuild recruiting infrastructure in the state...Accomplished already (on schedule)
Become a post season team.....will happen this year with NIT or next at the latest (TBD)
Compete in upper division of Big Ten....TBD but expectations are year 5
Compete for Big Ten titles...TBD
I've even seen this talked about in terms of actual years to accomplish each of these. Based on what I've seen and talked to people abut, they are ahead of schedule in some facets and on schedule in others. Not behind in any of them.
Where did I hear or see this stuff? I don't think it would take much sleuth work to figure it out if you see who some of the power brokers are in the Big Ten Network, heads of some of the Sports networks and their IU connections \ connections to my industry. I'll leave it at that, but it's not hard to figure out.
If the job TC has done so far at IU exceeds or meets their every expectation I want to be an Indiana University employee in my next life. Talk about heaven on earth.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 12:40:45 PM
Ners, you want to have a beer sometime and I'm happy to tell you, not on a message board. But you're right, someone that works daily with the Big Ten Network, Fox Sports, ESPN, the NCAA offices (located just up the road from IU), friends at the IndyStar and Bloomington Herald, or the dozen or so folks that I went to school there with that are in strong sports positions around the country and very connected to IU. Yup, you are right. You got me there. It's all made up. Illusions of grandeur
Next thing you know you'll be saying that kids are going to certain schools because they hired the AAU assistant coach as a video coordinator...oh wait.
Let's have that beer Ners. We can talk about the Cowboys, Marquette and your other favorite topic...IU. Maybe we can drive down to Plymouth and get some stock tips and talk Angus with the Black Swan \ Canadian Dimes. It will be a hoot.
Sounds great Chicos...I'm going to be at the MU Syracuse game. You should come in town for that game, and we'll get out an hash this out. I still don't see what the fear is in putting the names of your sources on a message board? It's not libel if they said what you write..so why not? It's not like you are revealing any "bad" information...in fact it is quite the opposite..stating the people in the know with regard to IU are very pleased with the progress thus far. What's the rub about revelaing who those people are??
And you keep mocking the vdeo coordinator thing...ironic at minimum..cause I'm sure if Buzz did something like that..you'd be all over it. Then if he took it a step further and offered some kid a walk on slot that was the son of a board of directors memeber of an AAU squad..you'd be crying 'SQUIRMY." The reality is that it is highly, highly, highly unlikely that siad video coordinator and walk on were the best options for those positions. Classic quid pro quo
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 03, 2010, 01:35:16 PM
If the job TC has done so far at IU exceeds or meets their every expectation I want to be an Indiana University employee in my next life. Talk about heaven on earth.
You obviously have no clue how bad it was, and that's why you make comments like you do. More than half the stuff that was going on hasn't even been made public. So yes, they are pleased with how things are going considering what a cesspool it was.
Quote from: Ners on November 03, 2010, 02:00:20 PM
And you keep mocking the vdeo coordinator thing...ironic at minimum..cause I'm sure if Buzz did something like that..you'd be all over it. Then if he took it a step further and offered some kid a walk on slot that was the son of a board of directors memeber of an AAU squad..you'd be crying 'SQUIRMY." The reality is that it is highly, highly, highly unlikely that siad video coordinator and walk on were the best options for those positions. Classic quid pro quo
If Buzz wants to hire an AAU coach to be his video coordinator, God Bless him. I say go do it. The Video coordinator doesn't recruit, can't coach, etc which is why this entire thread is so laughable. So they hired a guy to be the video coordinator....OH MY GOD!! Let the pipeline of recruits start now. I mean, seriously, think what you are saying. Now, if he was hired as a person that could actually recruit, actually be on the court to coach, etc...different story. But that's not what is going on.
Why not put the names on the board, because I choose not to. Pretty simple. I can't make it any more clearer for you. Why don't you fly up this weekend, I'll be there. You can watch the Cowboys get slaughtered by the Packers on Sunday and take in the MU game on Saturday. Date? Sorry, Syracuse is out...that's the beginning of Super Bowl week in Dallas and I won't be able to get to Milwaukee. Let's make this weekend the date.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 02:09:19 PM
You obviously have no clue how bad it was, and that's why you make comments like you do. More than half the stuff that was going on hasn't even been made public. So yes, they are pleased with how things are going considering what a cesspool it was.
Of course it wasn't made known to the public! Come on Chicos..you came on here several months ago trying to say IU was banned from post season play..and that wasn't part of their punishment...their punishment basically was reduced phone calls to recruits and losing 1 scholarship for 2008-2009. Hardly a death penalty. What hurt was when Crean was named head coach and he couldn't retain some of the talented players at IU..such as Jordan Crawford...and several other transfers that took place..and then the JUCO's he did try to bring in were scrubs..
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 12:04:48 PM
A disastrous season, yes...that changes things, but that's not going to happen unless they have another crippling injury. Trust me when I tell you he got a full pass last year because of the injury situation. They are showing a ton of progress and the reality of it is simple, they started from scratch (literally) and the powers over there are in it for the long haul.
They have some major talent coming in and more beyond in those classes.
The plan was simple and straight forward.
FIX the academic and off the court issue mess....Accomplished already (ahead of schedule)
Rebuild recruiting infrastructure in the state...Accomplished already (on schedule)
Become a post season team.....will happen this year with NIT or next at the latest (TBD)
Compete in upper division of Big Ten....TBD but expectations are year 5
Compete for Big Ten titles...TBD
I've even seen this talked about in terms of actual years to accomplish each of these. Based on what I've seen and talked to people abut, they are ahead of schedule in some facets and on schedule in others. Not behind in any of them.
Where did I hear or see this stuff? I don't think it would take much sleuth work to figure it out if you see who some of the power brokers are in the Big Ten Network, heads of some of the Sports networks and their IU connections \ connections to my industry. I'll leave it at that, but it's not hard to figure out.
You left out one "benchmark" that TC has already exceeded since arriving at IU - the number of times his team has totally quit on him. I'd put the number at close to 10 last year, as they pretty much mailed in the last half of the Big 10 season. How many of those per season do your sources at Indiana want/expect per year? And please don't talk about injuries. I'm not talking about how bad they were (really bad). I'm talking about their lack of effort (much, much worse).
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 02:09:19 PM
You obviously have no clue how bad it was, and that's why you make comments like you do. More than half the stuff that was going on hasn't even been made public. So yes, they are pleased with how things are going considering what a cesspool it was.
In that case how did IU manage to get off almost scott free? Somehow when I think of something so horrid it takes 5-10 years to dig out from I'm thinking something that gets a little more than a slap on the wrist from the gendarmes. Also seems odd to me that the NCAA would hold back some of IU's violations from the public.
Quote from: Ners on November 03, 2010, 02:16:20 PM
Of course it wasn't made known to the public! Come on Chicos..you came on here several months ago trying to say IU was banned from post season play..and that wasn't part of their punishment...their punishment basically was reduced phone calls to recruits and losing 1 scholarship for 2008-2009. Hardly a death penalty. What hurt was when Crean was named head coach and he couldn't retain some of the talented players at IU..such as Jordan Crawford...and several other transfers that took place..and then the JUCO's he did try to bring in were scrubs..
They were put on 3 years probation and most of the players left BEFORE the NCAA decided not to put them on the post season ban, effectively a ban by defacto summary. The NCAA's decision was released on November 25th, long long long after school had started and players had left because the assumption was the NCAA was going to put them on the ban. Furthermore, no one knew if it was going to be a 1 year, 2 year, 3 year ban (no one expected no ban on the postseason)....not knowing did as much damage as anything. The mere idea of having it hang over their head that it was going to happen did the job and cratered the program. Don't believe me, why don't you ask their transfers and kids that were being recruited. That's reality, you can continue to live in your hateland and pretend to know what you're talking about, but you simply don't....not on this subject. I'm sorry, you simply have no clue what you are talking about on this subject. Your emotional hatred blinds you to common sense and facts of the situation.
Just a few examples for you from recruits after it was learned of the NCAA findings but BEFORE the announcement that no ban would happen....about 6 months before. Comments from transfers during the Summer ( a few months later) also exist that talk of the same thing...the uncertainty of the punishment and the decision to stay was not worth the risk of waiting to find out the severity.
Whether Ebanks attends is part of the
uncertainty surrounding Indiana after Wednesday's allegations of "major" recruiting violations.
Among the possible penalties is a postseason ban, which could devastate recruiting.If IU is banned from the NCAA tournament,
current high school juniors who made non-binding oral commitments to IU or are considering playing for IU could decide to go elsewhere. Even the four seniors who signed a binding letter of intent in November could ask to be released.
"I'm really concerned," said Stephan Van Treese, the state's top-ranked junior and one of the nationally ranked players in his class considering Indiana.
"If they have violations that they can't go to the tournament, why would I want to go there? The main thing I want to do when I go to college is play in the tournament. I think a lot of players feel the same way.
A lot of people won't want to go there if they can't go to the postseason."
"I think it's tough to convince a top-level prospect who has other options to go to a school where there's a
good chance you won't get to participate in the postseason," said Jerry Meyer, national recruiting analyst for Rivals.com.
"Rival recruiters would have a field day going in and talking not about only sanctions and postseason bans, but the coach's job security and, 'Do you want to go to a program that functions that way?,' and pointing out past histories," Bob Gibbons said.
Yes Ners, please tell me how IU was "merely" slapped. You have no f'ing clue what you are talking about or the impact on the program leading up to the actual penalty phase. NONE...ZERO CLUE. God help us if MU is ever put in that situation where we wait 6 months DURING recruiting season for the governing body of the sport to decide if there is a penalty, what it is and how severe it will be. Just imagine what that uncertainty would do and the decimating affect it would have on recruiting. Please, grab a clue!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 03, 2010, 02:43:03 PM
In that case how did IU manage to get off almost scott free? Somehow when I think of something so horrid it takes 5-10 years to dig out from I'm thinking something that gets a little more than a slap on the wrist from the gendarmes. Also seems odd to me that the NCAA would hold back some of IU's violations from the public.
I think IU could have been hit harder, if that's what you're asking. But aside from the penalty aspect, there are a plethora of embarrassing stories (not against NCAA rules) that were going with players, etc....that's what I mean by cleaning up an absolute cesspool.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 04, 2010, 06:39:25 PM
They were put on 3 years probation and most of the players left BEFORE the NCAA decided not to put them on the post season ban, effectively a ban by defacto summary. The NCAA's decision was released on November 25th, long long long after school had started and players had left because the assumption was the NCAA was going to put them on the ban. Furthermore, no one knew if it was going to be a 1 year, 2 year, 3 year ban (no one expected no ban on the postseason)....not knowing did as much damage as anything. The mere idea of having it hang over their head that it was going to happen did the job and cratered the program. Don't believe me, why don't you ask their transfers and kids that were being recruited. That's reality, you can continue to live in your hateland and pretend to know what you're talking about, but you simply don't....not on this subject. I'm sorry, you simply have no clue what you are talking about on this subject. Your emotional hatred blinds you to common sense and facts of the situation.
Just a few examples for you from recruits after it was learned of the NCAA findings but BEFORE the announcement that no ban would happen....about 6 months before. Comments from transfers during the Summer ( a few months later) also exist that talk of the same thing...the uncertainty of the punishment and the decision to stay was not worth the risk of waiting to find out the severity.
Whether Ebanks attends is part of the uncertainty surrounding Indiana after Wednesday's allegations of "major" recruiting violations. Among the possible penalties is a postseason ban, which could devastate recruiting.
If IU is banned from the NCAA tournament, current high school juniors who made non-binding oral commitments to IU or are considering playing for IU could decide to go elsewhere. Even the four seniors who signed a binding letter of intent in November could ask to be released.
"I'm really concerned," said Stephan Van Treese, the state's top-ranked junior and one of the nationally ranked players in his class considering Indiana.
"If they have violations that they can't go to the tournament, why would I want to go there? The main thing I want to do when I go to college is play in the tournament. I think a lot of players feel the same way. A lot of people won't want to go there if they can't go to the postseason."
"I think it's tough to convince a top-level prospect who has other options to go to a school where there's a good chance you won't get to participate in the postseason," said Jerry Meyer, national recruiting analyst for Rivals.com.
"Rival recruiters would have a field day going in and talking not about only sanctions and postseason bans, but the coach's job security and, 'Do you want to go to a program that functions that way?,' and pointing out past histories," Bob Gibbons said.
Yes Ners, please tell me how IU was "merely" slapped. You have no f'ing clue what you are talking about or the impact on the program leading up to the actual penalty phase. NONE...ZERO CLUE. God help us if MU is ever put in that situation where we wait 6 months DURING recruiting season for the governing body of the sport to decide if there is a penalty, what it is and how severe it will be. Just imagine what that uncertainty would do and the decimating affect it would have on recruiting. Please, grab a clue!
I find it very funny that you tell me I need to get a clue..when just 3 months ago you were posting HERE that IU did in fact receive a post season ban as part of their punishment!! Hilarious..yet..after being corrected by me..you now throw all of the above facts at me..and claim how informed you are. Percious Chicos. Precious..as you like to say. Like I said..I don't ahve anything against Tom Crean...I just with he'd fail..so you would shut up. Let it go buddy..he's gone
Ners, it was a poor choice of words and an error on my part. Because IU had a cloud over their head 8+ months waiting for the NCAA to decide what to do from a punishment standpoint, they got a postseason ban and THEN SOME.
No one knew if it would be 1, 2, 3 years....NO ONE thought it would be zero. The effect on recruiting and transfers was devastating and that's what you continue to miss, thus the need for a clue. You can't sit there with a straight face and ignore what all the recruits said, what all the transfers said, and the reality of having this huge punishment cloud hanging over the program. I'm sorry, you just can't do it. Instead, you throw out inane comments like they got slapped on the hand. Problem is, before they were "slapped on the hand" they were in such limbo it drove every player off the team and killed 2 recruiting classes. THIS CANNOT BE DENIED yet you completely ignore it.
I can't take you seriously when you don't have the intellectual integrity to acknowledge that fact. If MU was in the same situation where we got busted for something and the NCAA waited 8+ months to announce what the penalties would be (during the recruiting season, mind you), it would destroy this program for several years. That's the reality. This is why it is so different than the ridiculous comparisons you make.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 05, 2010, 11:11:26 AM
Ners, it was a poor choice of words and an error on my part. Because IU had a cloud over their head 8+ months waiting for the NCAA to decide what to do from a punishment standpoint, they got a postseason ban and THEN SOME.
No one knew if it would be 1, 2, 3 years....NO ONE thought it would be zero. The effect on recruiting and transfers was devastating and that's what you continue to miss, thus the need for a clue. You can't sit there with a straight face and ignore what all the recruits said, what all the transfers said, and the reality of having this huge punishment cloud hanging over the program. I'm sorry, you just can't do it. Instead, you throw out inane comments like they got slapped on the hand. Problem is, before they were "slapped on the hand" they were in such limbo it drove every player off the team and killed 2 recruiting classes. THIS CANNOT BE DENIED yet you completely ignore it.
I can't take you seriously when you don't have the intellectual integrity to acknowledge that fact. If MU was in the same situation where we got busted for something and the NCAA waited 8+ months to announce what the penalties would be (during the recruiting season, mind you), it would destroy this program for several years. That's the reality. This is why it is so different than the ridiculous comparisons you make.
Chicos - Sorry for the delayed reply - I just got back from Intellectual Integrity school..and had a hard time getting a seat in class, because they siad another student by the name of ChicosBailBonds was monopolizing all of the professors time.
I DO understand that having looming infractions can cause challenges with regard to recruiting, however, Crean's best recruiting class thus far has been his first..the kids who entered in 2009. 2010 was a complete disaster...both of which occured after the fate of the NCAA infractions was known.
Quote from: Ners on November 01, 2010, 05:16:13 PM
Some chatter recently on the success of recruiting under Tom Crean at Indiana lately. This article illustrates just what is going on..it is borderline sleazy...but...apparently within the rules..but..ahem..it does make me squirm:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=5750525
From the article:
The Hoosiers ties with Indiana Elite run in the family. Adams is the coach of the squad and his son Drew is a former Elite coach and current video coordinator under Crean. Mike Barnett is on the board of directors for Indiana Elite and his son Kory is a walk-on forward for the Hoosiers. Remember that Bloomington Red team that fed Knight's IU program? Well, one of the coaches was Criss Beyers who is a board member for the Indiana Elite squad. Bob Pryor, the former head coach of Bloomington Red, skippers one of Indiana Elite's younger teams.
Ironic that you had no problem with MU's association with a sleazy aau program like Mac Irvin but this really bothers you.
Quote from: dennycrane on November 07, 2010, 03:05:58 PM
Ironic that you had no problem with MU's association with a sleazy aau program like Mac Irvin but this really bothers you.
Well jack ass....when Buzz hires 2 guys associated with Mac Irvine aau program...then your point might have some merit..but until then this is just another idiotic post, of which u have a long history. Par for your course.
Quote from: dennycrane on November 07, 2010, 03:05:58 PM
Ironic that you had no problem with MU's association with a sleazy aau program like Mac Irvin but this really bothers you.
Oh go away, Badger troll. You complain about Marquette trying to make connections with Mac Irvin yet make no mention of UW's own sleazy connections with Rising Stars? Seriously, stop wasting our time with your trolling drivel.
Quote from: dennycrane on November 07, 2010, 03:05:58 PM
Ironic that you had no problem with MU's association with a sleazy aau program like Mac Irvin but this really bothers you.
Crean must have figured out the AAU connection thing watching Bo. Shall we remind you, Bo signed Marshall when he was with Irvin no matter how you try to cloud that one....also had Shaw in for a visit.
And why are you here again? Oh, I forgot, the signing date is nearing...a little worried that Buzz is making in-roads at Bo's storage locker at St. John's?
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 07, 2010, 04:43:02 PM
And why are you here again? Oh, I forgot, the signing date is nearing...a little worried that Buzz is making in-roads at Bo's storage locker at St. John's?
Well played.
Quote from: Ners on November 07, 2010, 03:56:15 PM
Well jack ass....when Buzz hires 2 guys associated with Mac Irvine aau program...then your point might have some merit..but until then this is just another idiotic post, of which u have a long history. Par for your course.
Irvin's make more not being on any one's official payroll.
It must go right over your head how foolish you look accusing a former coach of being involved in questionable recruiting activities. It must be the water in Indiana that has recently clouded his moral compass.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 07, 2010, 04:43:02 PM
Crean must have figured out the AAU connection thing watching Bo. Shall we remind you, Bo signed Marshall when he was with Irvin no matter how you try to cloud that one....also had Shaw in for a visit.
And why are you here again? Oh, I forgot, the signing date is nearing...a little worried that Buzz is making in-roads at Bo's storage locker at St. John's?
The Irvin's who were quoted in the Chicago paper that Marshall was not committed until he was signed after he gave a verbal? The Irvin's who were pushing MU to Shaw while Shaw's family wanted him to go somewhere else?
Defend the Irvins if you want but it won't end up well.
Quote from: dennycrane on November 07, 2010, 06:01:00 PM
Irvin's make more not being on any one's official payroll.
It must go right over your head how foolish you look accusing a former coach of being involved in questionable recruiting activities. It must be the water in Indiana that has recently clouded his moral compass.
The only moral compass around here who's is clouded is yours...anyone who resorts to posting on a rivals message board..inflammatory garbage...pretty much says everything about your character Denny.
Quote from: dennycrane on November 07, 2010, 06:01:00 PM
Irvin's make more not being on any one's official payroll.
It must go right over your head how foolish you look accusing a former coach of being involved in questionable recruiting activities. It must be the water in Indiana that has recently clouded his moral compass.
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/454/dbe/454dbe4b-6a87-4e0d-8c0d-5ff7b6ca9569)
Go away, troll.
Were you this outspoken when Bo signed Marshall? If so, continue your trolling, if not......
Quote from: dennycrane on November 07, 2010, 06:04:58 PM
Defend the Irvins if you want but it won't end up well.
The Irvins can defend for themselves...I was just pointing out their Wisconsin connections that you seem to be in denial about. Like this back in time:
"According to Illinois Prep Bulls-Eye, Shaw received an offer from Bo Ryan after UW's win over Northestern on Sunday. Howard Moore had attended the De La Salle-Simeon game the night before."
Or like this when Howard Moore was named UIC coach:
''It's great for UIC,'' Mac Irvin Fire club-basketball coach Mike Irvin said. ''Howard is a Chicago guy -- he's had success in both the city and suburbs. He definitely has our support at the Fire program. It's a long time coming and much deserved.''
A lot of the Fire kids seem to end up in the B-10....but now that Moore relocated from Madison it seems like the UW-Irvin connection is continuing with Moore now at UIC:
"Brown, a Morgan Park senior, orally committed to new UIC coach Howard Moore today, according to Morgan Park coach Nick Irvin."
Again, why are you here? Whisper, whisper....
Quote from: Ners on November 07, 2010, 07:01:04 PM
The only moral compass around here who's is clouded is yours...anyone who resorts to posting on a rivals message board..inflammatory garbage...pretty much says everything about your character Denny.
Inflammatory? I was pointing out the irony between your two positions. I guess it hit a nerve.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 07, 2010, 09:24:13 PM
The Irvins can defend for themselves...I was just pointing out their Wisconsin connections that you seem to be in denial about. Like this back in time:
"According to Illinois Prep Bulls-Eye, Shaw received an offer from Bo Ryan after UW's win over Northestern on Sunday. Howard Moore had attended the De La Salle-Simeon game the night before."
Or like this when Howard Moore was named UIC coach:
''It's great for UIC,'' Mac Irvin Fire club-basketball coach Mike Irvin said. ''Howard is a Chicago guy -- he's had success in both the city and suburbs. He definitely has our support at the Fire program. It's a long time coming and much deserved.''
A lot of the Fire kids seem to end up in the B-10....but now that Moore relocated from Madison it seems like the UW-Irvin connection is continuing with Moore now at UIC:
"Brown, a Morgan Park senior, orally committed to new UIC coach Howard Moore today, according to Morgan Park coach Nick Irvin."
Again, why are you here? Whisper, whisper....
All that writing and yet it does not address the issue at all. This has nothing to do with UW, Illinois or any other school.
The problem is that schools like UW and Illinois landed Fire players despite the Irvins and not because of their help. See Irvin's comments after Marshall committed to the UW. Irvin proclaiming that he was not really committed despite what marshall and his family said.
Back to the original point. It is ironic that some posters who defended a program like the Fire now attack another program that is no worse and probably less dirty.
I cannot speak as to whether or not they are dirty. Interestingly, though, you say that Irvin being ticked when Marshall went to UW is evidence you guys are clean. You are using the fact that Irvin favored MU for Shaw, A GUY WE DIDN'T GET, as evidence we are dirty. Dude..... We also lost out on Dawson(?), a guy that the Sparty board and the bucky board said that Buzz would land because he would make deals with the handler. And Miller/Bello. And Faust. So, either Buzz is the most incompetent cheater in the world, or your premise that he is dirty is a bunch of peepeekahkah.
Quote from: dennycrane on November 08, 2010, 07:17:24 AM
All that writing and yet it does not address the issue at all. This has nothing to do with UW, Illinois or any other school.
The problem is that schools like UW and Illinois landed Fire players despite the Irvins and not because of their help. See Irvin's comments after Marshall committed to the UW. Irvin proclaiming that he was not really committed despite what marshall and his family said.
Back to the original point. It is ironic that some posters who defended a program like the Fire now attack another program that is no worse and probably less dirty.
Your stance is laughable...how is that for keeping it simple? Moore was/is tight with the Irvins--even getting public kudos and recruits/visits at both UW and UIC. Is it really that hard for you to see that Bo plays here too along with his B10 friends?
As to defense, you keep bringing in MU and the Irvins...and I keep bringing up UW and the Irvins. As to the Irvins prosecution, I will leave that up to the internet lawyers such as yourself. Just know you may need to take the Fifth as Bucky and their B10 Buddies play here too (see Thompson, Shaw for 2011 for starters...)
Quote from: tower912 on November 08, 2010, 07:57:05 AM
I cannot speak as to whether or not they are dirty. Interestingly, though, you say that Irvin being ticked when Marshall went to UW is evidence you guys are clean. You are using the fact that Irvin favored MU for Shaw, A GUY WE DIDN'T GET, as evidence we are dirty. Dude..... We also lost out on Dawson(?), a guy that the Sparty board and the bucky board said that Buzz would land because he would make deals with the handler. And Miller/Bello. And Faust. So, either Buzz is the most incompetent cheater in the world, or your premise that he is dirty is a bunch of peepeekahkah.
This.
Buzz has shown he'll go after the top talent and not give in to anyone. This makes the fans and coaches of the top midwestern programs (MSU, Illinois, IU, etc) uncomfortable and quick to point fingers and start rumors (MU is cheating, Buzz will be leaving, etc). Expect most of this BS to come out of UW. We're on the rise, they're on the decline. Rather than face those facts they'll cry "foul". As predictable as it is pathetic.
Lenny, how do you think UW is on the "decline"?
Yeah...that one raised my eyebrows as well. They finished the year 13-5 in the B10, and the #16 team in the country. A year after they finished 10-8.
Quote from: dennycrane on November 08, 2010, 07:09:56 AM
Inflammatory? I was pointing out the irony between your two positions. I guess it hit a nerve.
Will you please illustrate the irony between my two positions? This ought to be good. In addition, do you acknowledge that UW and Bo Ryan recruit kids who play AAU?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 08, 2010, 09:51:00 AM
Lenny, how do you think UW is on the "decline"?
I think Wisky is like a stock that has had a great run but now looks "toppy". Their "guidance" going forward is questionable due to a significant drop off in recruiting the past two years. Add an aging executive (Bo) to the equation and I see the Badgers' next 5 -10 years as challenging. Instead of being in the top 3 or 4 and challenging for titles I see them more in the middle of the pack and on the bubble.
I know there's a popular myth that Bo gets it done without much talent, but the reality is that his rosters have been full of 4*, top 100 players (and even one 5*). As he keeps recruiting 3*s, expect results to suffer.