IU held their Haunted Halloween event last night and it was also part of the OV for Cody Zeller....the recruit they see as the "savior" of their program since several other premier recruits are waiting to see what he does before committing....if he goes to IU so will they...
They showed two videos as part of their program-obviously for the sake of Zeller; one was Calbert Cheaney and the other was D Wade.
As an MU fan it really bothers me that Crean is using the sole marquee recruit of his MU tenure to recruit for IU....especially since D Wade would never have been at MU if we were in the Big East at the time due to his partial qualifier status. It also bother me that Wade allows his name and fame to be associated with IU.....certainly not what I'd expect for someone who had his jersey hung as one of MU's all time greats.... it would be like Jordan doing an infomercial for K and Duke.
If Zeller picks IU (over UNC and Butler) the real question is how did Tanned Tommy convince him that he could better prepare him for the NBA (given his long history of recruiting bigs and getting them to the next level) over Roy Williams who has probably sent more first rounds bigs to the league than any other active coach? The Zeller family is supposed to be very basketball savvy....how they haven't seen through the tanned one's BS by now is amazing to me.
Quote from: texaswarrior74 on October 30, 2010, 10:09:01 AM
it would be like Jordan doing an infomercial for K and Duke.
Not at all. Marquette and Indiana arent rivals and Jordan never played for Coach K. So your comparison is worthless.
Like it or not, like TC or not...he and Wade have a special bond. I have no problem with him still staying close to TC.
The one situation I'd have a problem with it is if it was a recruit that both MU and IU were after.
If TC wants to use him to impress the 13 year olds he's recruiting, fine by me.
How did leveraging Wade work out when we were recruiting Shumpert? It's the best thing Crean has going for him. When he brings Wade into the mix you know it's desperate times.
How good is Cody Zeller and what type of style does he play? I've heard he's the best of the 3 brothers. The Indiana fans seem to think he is the second coming. I guess based on his brothers I've assumed he's not really a true big man, but more in the mold of a Novak type of player, playing more on the outside.
Quote from: Ready2Fly on October 30, 2010, 10:36:14 AM
How did leveraging Wade work out when we were recruiting Shumpert? It's the best thing Crean has going for him. When he brings Wade into the mix you know it's desperate times.
Just beat me to it.
Honestly, if a video of Dwyane Wade is the deciding - or even any - factor in where Zeller goes, then the kid is a complete goof. Who would be enough of a dope to think the success of a guard at Marquette nearly a decade ago somehow impacts what will happen with him, a big man, at Indiana? And I'm somewhat confident Roy Williams can roll out a few former UNC players if that's what it takes to impress the kid.
Quote from: cheebs09 on October 30, 2010, 10:39:02 AM
How good is Cody Zeller and what type of style does he play? I've heard he's the best of the 3 brothers. The Indiana fans seem to think he is the second coming. I guess based on his brothers I've assumed he's not really a true big man, but more in the mold of a Novak type of player, playing more on the outside.
Most overhyped trio of brothers since Hanson (the band, not the hockey players).
Was it a taped message (I am fine with as DW3 loves what CTC did for him) or a highlight video (lame...how does that have anything to do with IU basketball?)?
After his first couple years of disaster, CTC needed these three recruits desperately...sounds like he has them locked up.
Quote from: texaswarrior74 on October 30, 2010, 10:09:01 AM
The Zeller family is supposed to be very basketball savvy....how they haven't seen through the tanned one's BS by now is amazing to me.
Texas....ask yourself that same question. How much time have you spent one on one with TC in your life? How much time have the Zelllers? Yet here they are with IU in the final 3. It doesn't mean he'll pick IU, but my point is a lot of people have picked TC as their head coach.
I was extremely impressed with Steve Novak and his family. With your words, it sounds like you're calling the Novak family, and Steve himself, stupid or naive for choosing to play for Crean.
I don't think that's fair nor do I think that's what you truly mean, but one can come to that conclusion about any recruit that chooses to play for TC. Conversely, since Buzz hasn't landed a quality big man either, does that mean all recruits are seeing through Buzz?
This is why the Buzz vs TC stuff is nonsense. People still have raw emotions about the guy that seems to wipe away the logic rather quickly.
Pakuni...they may be overrated but MU would have been screaming like little girls to have any of the three.
As for the Wade part...people...get over it. He and Crean have a tight bond. Some of you make it like your girlfriend / wife is chummy with their ex.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 30, 2010, 11:06:27 AM
Pakuni...they may be overrated but MU would have been screaming like little girls to have any of the three.
MU would be screaming like little girls to have any semi-athletic 7-footer with some basketball skills, something we haven't achieved in 20 years.
That hardly supports the status of the Zellers as McDonald's All-Americans and perceived program saviors.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 30, 2010, 11:13:35 AM
MU would be screaming like little girls to have any semi-athletic 7-footer with some basketball skills, something we haven't achieved in 20 years.
That hardly supports the status of the Zellers as McDonald's All-Americans and perceived program saviors.
The only people that are saying program saviors are fans that are trying to make some kind of hay. No one seriously in the know is calling any of them program saviors.
As for whether they deserve the notoriety they have received, well it seems you and others are very into ratings (me, not so much). So let's look at the ratings that you support so much.
Cody Zeller RSCI 14th
Tyler Zeller RSCI 18th Class of 2008...attends to North Carolina
Luke Zeller RSCI 34th Class of 2005....is easily the worst of the three...attended Notre Dame and was a 4 star high school player...final 5 were Stanford, Kansas, Illinois, Notre Dame and Missouri.
Again, we would scream like little girls to land any of the three. No one is saying program savior unless to make some kind of anti-Crean point. No one thinks he is (a program savior), but it would certainly be a big get for IU because he has been considered the best of the three Zeller kids and would likely lead to landing a few more recruits in state. But no, not a program savior.
Quote from: texaswarrior74 on October 30, 2010, 10:09:01 AM
As an MU fan it really bothers me that Crean is using the sole marquee recruit of his MU tenure to recruit for IU....
I think your frustrations are misplaced. I don't blame Crean for using every option at his disposal. Blame Wade for lending his name to recruit for another school.
wouldn't IU fans and players be saying "if our school is so great, why is our coach not using one of our many superstars from the past to do videos?"
I don't disagree with you Ziggy...I think it is strange myself.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on October 30, 2010, 09:26:19 PM
wouldn't IU fans and players be saying "if our school is so great, why is our coach not using one of our many superstars from the past to do videos?"
They are using their own past players as well, it's just that people here only focus on Wade's appearance. But they have and continue to use IU former players as well.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 30, 2010, 09:41:47 PM
They are using their own past players as well, it's just that people here only focus on Wade's appearance. But they have and continue to use IU former players as well.
And despite all that, Crean is still a fairly shitty recruiter (Wesley and Lazar the exceptions of course). Hey, if you're full of crap, some people can see it, some can't. Not a fault of yours (the one full of crap). usually they're the ones most disconnected to their crap trowing.
I love wade as a basketball player, but he is a total dork for hyping Indiana BB in any form.
Does anybody know if he has helped Buzz and MU last year or this year--if he has I haven't heard about it. And if he has, then I can change my opinion.
If Crean was at DePaul or ND, would wade be helping him there--how about at UW?
I could care less if Crean is using Wade to hype their program. Dwyane is his own person now.
With that said, is it some type of culture thing at Indiana to name drop? Do they teach at class on that in Bloomington? Chico? I say that because reading Tom Crean's twitter is embarassing. Kissing ass, name dropping, whatever you want to call it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 30, 2010, 08:37:22 PM
The only people that are saying program saviors are fans that are trying to make some kind of hay. No one seriously in the know is calling any of them program saviors.
As for whether they deserve the notoriety they have received, well it seems you and others are very into ratings (me, not so much). So let's look at the ratings that you support so much.
Cody Zeller RSCI 14th
Tyler Zeller RSCI 18th Class of 2008...attends to North Carolina
Luke Zeller RSCI 34th Class of 2005....is easily the worst of the three...attended Notre Dame and was a 4 star high school player...final 5 were Stanford, Kansas, Illinois, Notre Dame and Missouri.
Again, we would scream like little girls to land any of the three. No one is saying program savior unless to make some kind of anti-Crean point. No one thinks he is (a program savior), but it would certainly be a big get for IU because he has been considered the best of the three Zeller kids and would likely lead to landing a few more recruits in state. But no, not a program savior.
This is why people dislike you so.
You know very well I've repeatedly said I don't put much stock into player rankings, and yet you've built an entire response around the false notion that I "support them so much" and am "very into" them.
You're basically selling yourself out for a nonsensical mission to defend Tom Crean against any perceived slight (in this case, the apparently hurtful labeling of his top recruit as overhyped).
Bravo for you.
By the way, Luke Zeller was a McDonald's All-American and Indiana Mr. Basketball (over Dominic James and Josh McRoberts) who went on to average about 4 ppg in college. And you're defending him against the overhyped label?
Uh-huh.
Is calling a kid, whom you've probably never seen play, overhyped, in order to make his potential coach look bad any better?
Here's a question- In 2-3 years, when Crean is hired to rebuild the struggling Akron Zips program and uses Wade, will we still care?
Wade can do whatever he wants and I don't think it's a huge deal, but I think it's in poor taste and kind of embarrassing for Crean to be using one of Marquette's former players to recruit for him. I don't recall Bill Self using Deron Williams to get kids to come to Kansas. How about Roy Williams...does he use Hinrich to get kids to NC? Does Calipari use Marcus Camby to get kids to Kentucky? I could extend the list. It's just kind of an awkward and odd situation and I would think Indiana fans would kind of think the same thing. Shouldn't Crean be selling his program rather something he fell into 7 years ago?
What confuses me most is how a Nike player can support an Adidas program.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 30, 2010, 08:37:22 PM
The only people that are saying program saviors are fans that are trying to make some kind of hay. No one seriously in the know is calling any of them program saviors.
As for whether they deserve the notoriety they have received, well it seems you and others are very into ratings (me, not so much). So let's look at the ratings that you support so much.
Cody Zeller RSCI 14th
Tyler Zeller RSCI 18th Class of 2008...attends to North Carolina
Luke Zeller RSCI 34th Class of 2005....is easily the worst of the three...attended Notre Dame and was a 4 star high school player...final 5 were Stanford, Kansas, Illinois, Notre Dame and Missouri.
Again, we would scream like little girls to land any of the three. No one is saying program savior unless to make some kind of anti-Crean point. No one thinks he is (a program savior), but it would certainly be a big get for IU because he has been considered the best of the three Zeller kids and would likely lead to landing a few more recruits in state. But no, not a program savior.
Please uninclude me in the "we" who would scream like a little girl if MU landed any of the Zeller brothers.
Sure would have like Zeller over James, Matthews, or Jerel. I forgot about Burke too. We could have really used another big guy on the wings to defend the Lopez twins.
(Heavy sarcasm), although the other two would have been good pickups.
Quote from: muchalktalk on October 31, 2010, 09:52:30 AM
Is calling a kid, whom you've probably never seen play, overhyped, in order to make his potential coach look bad any better?
I'm calling the kid overhyped because I believe he, like his brothers, has been overhyped.
It has nothing to do with who his potential coach may or may not be. It has to do with a time-honored tradition in Indiana of hyping up small-town kids (Damon Bailey?).
If you don't share that opinion, fine. Maybe I'm wrong. Make the third Zeller will live up to expectations his brothers haven't. But don't attribute to me motivations when you have no clue what you're talking about. I am not, nor have I ever been, one of the consistent Crean bashers around here. In fact, I was one of the few who didn't call for a public hanging (yes, that's hyperbole) when he left and I've largely avoided any discussion of what he's doing at Indiana. Because I don't care. Someone asked here for an opinion. I gave mine.
Dwyane Wade is a grown ass man and can do whatever he wants for whoever he wants.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on October 31, 2010, 10:06:17 AM
Wade can do whatever he wants and I don't think it's a huge deal, but I think it's in poor taste and kind of embarrassing for Crean to be using one of Marquette's former players to recruit for him. I don't recall Bill Self using Deron Williams to get kids to come to Kansas. How about Roy Williams...does he use Hinrich to get kids to NC? Does Calipari use Marcus Camby to get kids to Kentucky? I could extend the list. It's just kind of an awkward and odd situation and I would think Indiana fans would kind of think the same thing. Shouldn't Crean be selling his program rather something he fell into 7 years ago?
Not trying to be combative, but do we really know that those coaches don't use their former players from other schools?
Certainly these former players could be featured in recruiting videos that we (the fans) don't see, and mentioned in recruiting visits. Hell, they could be at midnight madness, and we probably wouldn't hear about it.
Quite frankly, if Bill Self is recruiting a PG, he should definitely mention Derron Williams, and show him Williams highlight videos.
There is no award for second place in recruiting, so coaches should leverage every angle they can.
Certainly D Wade and Tom Crean could do whatever they heck they want to do, and that is completely fine. But I would hope that somewhere along the line, if we ask, D Wade would help us recruit a kid to Marquette and talk about how great a place it was for him, as an insitution etc. Be true to your school sometimes. And I am sure he would help if asked. Sure Crean was his coach, and so there is some connection between Wade doing well and Crean coaching him well. But he went to Marquette, and I would hope he'd support the institution if asked to help land a recruit for Marquette.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Hanner-Perea-96521
I don't know if this kid was there, but he just committed to IU.
#10 ranked recruit in 2012. #4 PF in class. Nice get.
And some of the IU scout board denizens are telling the MU smacktalkers who said that Crean can't recruit a big to. well, hush.
You don't see DeAndrae Jordan in MU shorts, do you?
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 31, 2010, 12:42:06 AM
And despite all that, Crean is still a fairly crapty recruiter (Wesley and Lazar the exceptions of course). Hey, if you're full of crap, some people can see it, some can't. Not a fault of yours (the one full of crap). usually they're the ones most disconnected to their crap trowing.
Wesley and Lazar are the exceptions? I think the list is much deeper than that, but whatever.
Quote from: Pakuni on October 31, 2010, 09:05:57 AM
This is why people dislike you so.
You know very well I've repeatedly said I don't put much stock into player rankings, and yet you've built an entire response around the false notion that I "support them so much" and am "very into" them.
I'm not here to make friends....plenty of people really like me in this world and plenty don't. I can live with that. :-*
If I incorrectly labeled you as one of those that loves the ratings, then my apologies. You shift so much on your arguments with Marquette84 and others, I can't keep track of what you're saying half the time, but if you say that's the case, fine. There are plenty here that do believe in the ratings, that is until it goes against their argument and they run away from them faster than Dems are from B.O. this election season.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 31, 2010, 11:10:24 AM
Please uninclude me in the "we" who would scream like a little girl if MU landed any of the Zeller brothers.
So if MU landed the 14th best player in the country you wouldn't be happy? You...especially. Interesting, especially with our stud big men that we've landed the last 3 decades.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on October 31, 2010, 10:06:17 AM
Wade can do whatever he wants and I don't think it's a huge deal, but I think it's in poor taste and kind of embarrassing for Crean to be using one of Marquette's former players to recruit for him. I don't recall Bill Self using Deron Williams to get kids to come to Kansas. How about Roy Williams...does he use Hinrich to get kids to NC? Does Calipari use Marcus Camby to get kids to Kentucky? I could extend the list. It's just kind of an awkward and odd situation and I would think Indiana fans would kind of think the same thing. Shouldn't Crean be selling his program rather something he fell into 7 years ago?
How do you know Wade didn't offer to help?
How 'bout if we just settle for the moans of a lady of the evening?
Quote from: nyg on October 31, 2010, 06:13:03 PM
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Hanner-Perea-96521
I don't know if this kid was there, but he just committed to IU.
#10 ranked recruit in 2012. #4 PF in class. Nice get.
They are picking up a lot of good recruits which is why all this nonsense coming out of the haters here is so freak'n stupid.
He felt he couldn't recruit some of the kids he wanted at MU, he left and now he's landing kids he couldn't at MU. Maybe he needed that assist by coaching at IU and having all the benefits that go along with. Buzz has proven to be a solid recruiter, though he is also showing that in a year where there aren't as many minutes it's harder to recruit to a place like MU....the same situation Crean had. He's also showing that landing a big at MU has been very tough, something Crean also couldn't do but has now landed 3 at IU and may land a fourth in the next few weeks.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 31, 2010, 07:12:25 PM
So if MU landed the 14th best player in the country you wouldn't be happy? You...especially. Interesting, especially with our stud big men that we've landed the last 3 decades.
Happy? Sure. Scream like a little girl? Not my style.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 31, 2010, 07:20:52 PM
They are picking up a lot of good recruits which is why all this nonsense coming out of the haters here is so freak'n stupid.
Your perspective is mostly right I think here. However, people are assigning Crean different expectations. When Crean left, I think the standard was going to be a few good recruits every year since Crean was so great and IU was such an easy place to recruit to. The talent instate for 2011 and 2012 was supposed to be like fish in a barrel for Crean. Playing time is/was there to be had, you had a great coach, a great recruiter, and a great program. Even with these 2012 pickups, there is no way he has met expectations from April 2008.
It is probably more of a matter of lower Crean's expectations and noticing that he has always gotten good players once every three years and he will continue to do that at IU. If "It's Indiana, It's Indiana" then it shouldn't matter who the coach is when recruiting in state. A drunk boxer will land a punch every once in a while if it is really that easy.
So there is still a fair perspective that Crean has barely done better recruiting at IU than he did at MU. He basically landed the equivalent of Butch at IU which he coudn't at MU. It was probably a good move for Crean but I think Crean has barely met expectations at best with recruiting. I honestly thought he would be cleaning up better than he has, even after seeing what he did at MU. I did not expect him to be a Cody Zeller decision away from two dud classes in a row with tons of PT to sell.
I don't have a problem with DW helping TC at IU. So long as he doesn't denigrate MU in the process. Just as DW can't attest to Buzz's coaching abilities, he also can't speak to the type of university IU is.
Quote from: tower912 on October 31, 2010, 06:31:29 PM
And some of the IU scout board denizens are telling the MU smacktalkers who said that Crean can't recruit a big to. well, hush.
Tijan Jobe, Tom Pritchard, Kyle Taber, Bobby Capobianco, Bawa Muinru, Christian Watford, Derek Elston...
Am I missing an impact player here?!?
Should a team that has its PG (Jeremiah Rivers) as its second leading rebounder TALK about big men landing in IU?
Quote from: Avenue Commons on October 31, 2010, 04:13:53 PM
Dwyane Wade is a grown ass man and can do whatever he wants for whoever he wants.
+10000000000000000000000000000000
Conversation over.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on October 31, 2010, 08:05:29 PM
Your perspective is mostly right I think here. However, people are assigning Crean different expectations. When Crean left, I think the standard was going to be a few good recruits every year since Crean was so great and IU was such an easy place to recruit to. The talent instate for 2011 and 2012 was supposed to be like fish in a barrel for Crean. Playing time is/was there to be had, you had a great coach, a great recruiter, and a great program. Even with these 2012 pickups, there is no way he has met expectations from April 2008.
It is probably more of a matter of lower Crean's expectations and noticing that he has always gotten good players once every three years and he will continue to do that at IU. If "It's Indiana, It's Indiana" then it shouldn't matter who the coach is when recruiting in state. A drunk boxer will land a punch every once in a while if it is really that easy.
So there is still a fair perspective that Crean has barely done better recruiting at IU than he did at MU. He basically landed the equivalent of Butch at IU which he coudn't at MU. It was probably a good move for Crean but I think Crean has barely met expectations at best with recruiting. I honestly thought he would be cleaning up better than he has, even after seeing what he did at MU. I did not expect him to be a Cody Zeller decision away from two dud classes in a row with tons of PT to sell.
My guess is you will see over the long run that he will pull in better classes at IU year over year then he did at MU. People here jumped the gun, not surprisingly, because he didn't have stellar classes in the first couple of years. Fact of the matter is that they were way behind in terms of recruiting in that state, basically started over from scratch, etc. In my opinion, that lack of perspective here has blinded a lot of people that are using emotion over brain power. This is why I continued to tell many doubters here that he was there for the long haul and the president and Fred Glass were totally on board.
The nonsense about the rumblings of him being fired or some of the fans upset and ready to fold on the team was a total joke. Sure, a few dimwits on a message board, but no one of substance.
Crean will be there a long time and I suspect that will rub a lot of people here the wrong way....it most certainly is going to make a good number of folks here back down from the "he'll be gone within 4 years" mantra.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on October 31, 2010, 09:11:00 PM
Tijan Jobe, Tom Pritchard, Kyle Taber, Bobby Capobianco, Bawa Muinru, Christian Watford, Derek Elston...
Am I missing an impact player here?!?
Should a team that has its PG (Jeremiah Rivers) as its second leading rebounder TALK about big men landing in IU?
I believe they're talking about the 3 highly ranked bigs they have landed in the last few months, not the list you have listed above which are basically the guys he had to get simply to field a team
Perea 6-8" very highly regarded (if you're into rankings...10th in the nation)
Jurkin 7-0" again, if you're into rankings (54th in one rating, top 20 in two others)
Lyles 6-10" Considered #1 recruit in the class of 2014 in some rankings
Of course, if they get Zeller, that would be another big at 6-10" and ranked also in the top 15.
Safe to say, Mr. Crean is able to get very highly rated bigs to play for him at Indiana, but not at Marquette. Let's hope Buzz can finally land one of these guys and make it routine here at MU.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 12:13:07 AM
My guess is you will see over the long run that he will pull in better classes at IU year over year then he did at MU. People here jumped the gun, not surprisingly, because he didn't have stellar classes in the first couple of years. Fact of the matter is that they were way behind in terms of recruiting in that state, basically started over from scratch, etc. In my opinion, that lack of perspective here has blinded a lot of people that are using emotion over brain power. This is why I continued to tell many doubters here that he was there for the long haul and the president and Fred Glass were totally on board.
The nonsense about the rumblings of him being fired or some of the fans upset and ready to fold on the team was a total joke. Sure, a few dimwits on a message board, but no one of substance.
Crean will be there a long time and I suspect that will rub a lot of people here the wrong way....it most certainly is going to make a good number of folks here back down from the "he'll be gone within 4 years" mantra.
I think you have the right perspective. Crean should do better at IU for sure. Better program, new facilities sound great, more talent it seems year after year coming out of the state compare to up in WI.
I just think the way he left MU and went to IU set the bar higher than it should have been, and maybe you always had the more realistic expectations. When he went to IU, I remember Hoosier fans saying that he will make them forget Bob Knight. I remember people salivating at the 2011 and 2012 class and thinking Crean will pull a few of those and the day will be saved. He did for 2012, but even with Zeller if he goes he still missed a lot in 2011. Some IU fans thought he would be similar to Calipari or Self and pull in one and done studs. Maybe he was not allowed to because they want a no-nonsense atmosphere and that would be distracting. But he certainly was not able to do that in 2010.
Point is, he left here and did the "It's Indiana" thing and people had high expectations. The expectations for some was that he would be on par with the other historic top 5 or 6 programs. He has not done that so many people will think he failed.
Failing or not failing on the recruiting trail is a point of view. I think Anderson as a 4 star top 100 player is enough to make this class good enough as long as Buzz adds some role players with the last two spots. Others wanted to see us build on the 5-star trend and land another, so they see this year's recruiting class as a disappointment.
I think it is fair to say that Crean has not lived up to his savior expecations, but can do well. But the "It's Indiana" stuff from him and the people thinking that he could out-do Bob Knight that drive the high expecations. If you set the bar that high, then Crean has basically failed until now. If you look at what Crean did at MU and factor in what a program like Indiana should get regardless of the coach, he is closer to meeting expectations.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 12:23:44 AM
Lyles 6-10" Considered #1 recruit in the class of 2014 in some rankings
That is an interesting offer. At 6'10" he probably dominated 8th grade, but it would be really hard to judge if he really is that good yet. Who knows? He will probably grow a little more and could be worth having regardless if he shows that he can lay the ball in already.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on November 01, 2010, 12:38:44 AM
I think you have the right perspective. Crean should do better at IU for sure. Better program, new facilities sound great, more talent it seems year after year coming out of the state compare to up in WI.
I just think the way he left MU and went to IU set the bar higher than it should have been, and maybe you always had the more realistic expectations. When he went to IU, I remember Hoosier fans saying that he will make them forget Bob Knight. I remember people salivating at the 2011 and 2012 class and thinking Crean will pull a few of those and the day will be saved. He did for 2012, but even with Zeller if he goes he still missed a lot in 2011. Some IU fans thought he would be similar to Calipari or Self and pull in one and done studs. Maybe he was not allowed to because they want a no-nonsense atmosphere and that would be distracting. But he certainly was not able to do that in 2010.
Point is, he left here and did the "It's Indiana" thing and people had high expectations. The expectations for some was that he would be on par with the other historic top 5 or 6 programs. He has not done that so many people will think he failed.
Failing or not failing on the recruiting trail is a point of view. I think Anderson as a 4 star top 100 player is enough to make this class good enough as long as Buzz adds some role players with the last two spots. Others wanted to see us build on the 5-star trend and land another, so they see this year's recruiting class as a disappointment.
I think it is fair to say that Crean has not lived up to his savior expectations, but can do well. But the "It's Indiana" stuff from him and the people thinking that he could out-do Bob Knight that drive the high expectations. If you set the bar that high, then Crean has basically failed until now. If you look at what Crean did at MU and factor in what a program like Indiana should get regardless of the coach, he is closer to meeting expectations.
Well, the fact of the matter is that even though it is one of the 5 or 6 historic top programs, I'm hard pressed to remember another coach in recent history that had to take over one of those programs with basically zero players. I mean, literally, he had one player returning who scored something like 8 points all year long the previous season.
Plus, IU has been struggling for the better part of the last decade. They were petering out with Knight. Mike Davis was never a good fit (yes, they made the run one year to the championship), and Kelvin was a cheating machine.
So your point is well taken, the expectations were there for some, but I think anyone on the inside knew those expectations were ridiculous. They started from scratch, literally. Some IU fans that are imbalanced certainly made hay with some of those expectations. And certainly some folks here that did so only because they hate the man, made absurd statements as well. When TC said "it's Indiana", he was right, but that rubbed a lot of people here wrong. I never understood why. Hell, I was a lot more pissed when Kevin O'Neill said it's Tennessee. That should have pissed everyone off. Indiana is a better basketball program long term than MU is. It just is. That doesn't mean we can't have a better decade than them, but over the long haul of many decades and on the average year to year, IU will have more going for it. Some people here take this as sacrilege. Why? They're one of the all-time great programs. We are one of the all-time top 35 programs and have plenty to be proud of, but if someone is given the opportunity to take one of the 4 or 5 great programs...you do it in a heartbeat. And hell yes, you say "it's Indiana" because he isn't talking to us, he's talking to the IU faithful and that's what THEY want to hear.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 01:06:33 AM
When TC said "it's Indiana", he was right, but that rubbed a lot of people here wrong. I never understood why.
I am more likely to bash Crean than defend him, and I have been told to get over it and what not. And the jealous ex-girlfriend analogy has been thrown around to many (but not from you) and I really hate that analogy. You cannot cheat on/dump your girlfriend and say "It's XYZ Playboy Bunny." That just isn't right.
You can, though, leave your job for a better one and say "It's XYZ Company" as your reason. And that is what Crean did, which is basically one of your points. Not as big of a deal you are right.
He did handle his leave a little like Lebron handled his decision though, which was disappointing, and he has not done all that well even given what he started with down at IU. There are plenty of things to criticize about Crean from April 2008-present, but he may deserve more context than he gets from the MU community now. He has creaned many players (which is too common), he has missed on a lot of close to home talent (though he cannot be expected to bat 1.000, but still a let down), and his teams have lost to some mid-majors and been blown out by Iowa.
There are also MU basketball/program related things about Crean that will frustrate me forever (the hand off offense, D James taking the bulk of the shots when others would have been better, Karate Kid Marquette Madness, his insistence that Scott Merritt take the last shots the year after the Final Four, the Thanksgiving tourney banner), so he will be forever bashed for some things on this board, and forever (deep-down though not outwardly) appreciated for the Al, the Big East, DWade, the Final Four, and leaving at the right time so we could get a better X's and O's coach. Those are pretty reasonable things that get manifested into a lot of threads.
You get accused of blindly loving him for bringing up some of the good, others get psychoanalyzed for not being able to get over their ex-girlfriend when bringin up the bad or him at all. C'est la vie. I think all perspectives add to the convo.
Good post, Hoops. A pretty solid, and definitely honest, summation.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 01, 2010, 11:25:38 AM
Good post, Hoops. A pretty solid, and definitely honest, summation.
Thanks brotha.
8TH GRADERS AND MOST hs'ERS FOR THAT MATTER ARE not evaluated based on how well they do in school ball. that was a pretty ignorant statment.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on October 31, 2010, 04:37:50 PM
Not trying to be combative, but do we really know that those coaches don't use their former players from other schools?
Certainly these former players could be featured in recruiting videos that we (the fans) don't see, and mentioned in recruiting visits. Hell, they could be at midnight madness, and we probably wouldn't hear about it.
Quite frankly, if Bill Self is recruiting a PG, he should definitely mention Derron Williams, and show him Williams highlight videos.
There is no award for second place in recruiting, so coaches should leverage every angle they can.
I agree that if Self is recruiting a PG he should show him how he used Deron Williams (and other PG's he's coached), but he'd never use video of him at a Kansas Midnight Madness or Haunted Hoops scrimmage. That's just lame.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 01, 2010, 03:15:48 PM
I agree that if Self is recruiting a PG he should show him how he used Deron Williams (and other PG's he's coached), but he'd never use video of him at a Kansas Midnight Madness or Haunted Hoops scrimmage. That's just lame.
I agree that it's kind of lame, I'm just trying to be objective. Other coaches are doing the same type of stuff.
How about this one:
http://www.ukathletics.com/sports/blog/spec-rel/071709aaa.html
Do you think it's an accident that Lebron ended up on UK's campus?
Now, say what you want about Cal (the guy is a slimeball), but he CAN recruit, and he uses every tool as his disposal (insert Pitino joke here).
My only point is:
Take a look around at techniques other coaches are using. This isn't anything new or unique to the Tanned One.
Crean has always been a big promotions guy, that's not going to change simply because he drinks diet coke and wears a red tie (that is too long).
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 01, 2010, 03:15:48 PM
I agree that if Self is recruiting a PG he should show him how he used Deron Williams (and other PG's he's coached), but he'd never use video of him at a Kansas Midnight Madness or Haunted Hoops scrimmage. That's just lame.
To you it is, to a high school kid that loves Dwyane Wade...it probably isn't. And that's the point.