Call me a pessimist (its true), and I know I should have more faith in Buzz, but I can't see losing out on DeWitt, coupled with losing out on McDonald, as anything other than a major failure in a long line of attempts to land a quality big man. Maybe I shouldn't be so down, as DeWitt picked a program many levels below MU so maybe there were issues there or we lost interest in him, but this is still very upsetting. And if we really were going after him hard, and he picked a program like Southern Miss over us, then there is no positive way in the world to spin that. Failure any way you look at it.
Everyone can give the excuse that MU can't and won't land a good big man until they get one to the NBA, but how long are we supposed to wait for that? Gardner and Otule aren't going pro, and we have no bigs signed (maybe we get Shaw, but I don't get good vibes from that lately), so best case scenario is that we land a 2012 sleeper big who shocks everyone by developing and eventually goes pro in the 2016 NBA draft, then start getting good bigs in the next few classes? Are we really supposed to accept the big man situation at this program until then?? Will Buzz even be here then? I'm frustrated now. I love what I've seen from Gardner, but its tough to say we didn't kinda scrape the bottom of the barrel for him. I'm tired of being forced to find bigs that way.
And don't say "Buzz has this program in a good place", because the players he has brought in on the wings, as well as the ones he has tried but failed to bring in down low, are creating high expectations and frustration. I expect Buzz to take this program to a higher level than where we were during the 3 Amigos years, but I don't really see it with the players we currently have down low. Does anyone really expect the wings/guards we have now to be significantly better players than James, McNeal, Matthews, and Hayward? I don't. Maybe a bit better, but not enough to overcome the same shortcomings that plagued them.
Don't say "there are so few good big men out there". I see way too many 6'8+ guys signing for other, oftentimes lesser programs for me to accept that. There are plenty of good big men out there (and I don't necessarily mean 7foot true center bangers)
(By the way, I'm not saying DeWitt is an NBA player or the saving grace for our problems down low, I am just pissed and venting. Ok, end of rant.)
Did you ever see DeWitt play?
good grief.......get a grip man.
The season is about to start....try to enjoy it.
ps. You're a pessimist.
Seriously, there has been no evidence that we were even involved with Dewitt this time around. The only place we've even been mentioned with him is on this board where someone pulled it from god knows where. You can't lose something you weren't really going after.
I agree. There is no reason to be negative. Marquette has recruited a highly talented group of players that are longer than the past teams. Marquette has had plenty of big men throughout the years. Otule and Gardner may prove to be good big men. Our guards and wings are taller than most teams this year. Now is the time to be excited and get ready to enjoy a great year of highly competitive basketball.
Quote from: BCHoopster on October 21, 2010, 03:40:48 PM
Did you ever see DeWitt play?
No.
Not the issue, or my main point. If anyone has anything substantive to say that proves my concerns about our lack of quality down low wrong, lets hear it.
Good grief, let's try to represent and not act like Crean's still recruiting here.
Since you disqualify so many positive arguements that may cheer you up, what positive arguement is ok to make? Just wanna know before I post my thoughts.
I am excited about this year and the ones after it. I am thrilled about the way Buzz has built this roster up for the most part. I am a true believer in Buzz and think he is the exact right man for the job.
But that doesn't change the fact that in 3 classes (ok, 2.5) Buzz has not found an answer to the problem that has plagued this program since the Final 4.
Quote from: bma725 on October 21, 2010, 03:44:05 PM
Seriously, there has been no evidence that we were even involved with Dewitt this time around. The only place we've even been mentioned with him is on this board where someone pulled it from god knows where. You can't lose something you weren't really going after.
+1...Also, connect the dots and its not too hard to see why DeWitt committed to Southern Miss.
Mark - I like most of your posts, viewpoints and thoughts...but think you are going off that "big man at Marquette" ledge a like many. I do believe that there are so FEW dominant, highly skilled big men, that landing one isn't essential - so long as you have a solid big man for defensive purposes if needed (which Otule can provide.) In my opinion, a guy that is 6'7" and very athletic, who can pass, dribble and shoot..can create a ton of match up problems for teams with more "size" (and has more value than a 1-dimensional kid who is 6'10") So long as our PG and SG aren't midgets..we can compete, and compete well..NOW THAT WE FINALLY HAVE DEPTH THAT GOES ABOUT 10 DEEP.
I'm convinced that if we had just 2 more solid tweener/switchables like a Jamil Wilson/Jamail Jones last year...we definitely would have beat: FSU, WVU, NOVA, NC State, Georgetown in Big East tourney, and Washington. We were THAT close to being a Sweet 16 team last year. Zoubek at Duke wasn't a dominant big..nor was the Howard kid from Butler..WVU didn't have a traditonal "big," they were a team made up of 6'6"-6'8", rangy, athletic kids.
The sky is not falling, we have the deepest team I can remember having in a while. Additionally, you don't need a dominant big man to win a championship, Duke and Butler had serviceable bigs who could grab rebounds. All this negativity will stop the day the season begins.
Besides, Chicos will try to convince you it's a guard's game.
Guys,
I know losing DeWitt is not that huge of a deal. I never said that anywhere in my post, and I clearly stated that he was not the answer to our problems, just another notch in a trend I don't like.
Here is the Scout list of centers.
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&pid=45&yr=2011
Play around with this a bit, and you will notice that the quickest drop to 3 star territory happens with the center position. There simply aren't that many of them.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 03:58:02 PM
Guys,
I know losing DeWitt is not that huge of a deal. I never said that anywhere in my post, and I clearly stated that he was not the answer to our problems, just another notch in a trend I don't like.
How can it be a notch in a trend when there's no evidence that we were even recruiting the guy since he didn't qualify at Missouri?
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 03:38:56 PM
And don't say "Buzz has this program in a good place", because the players he has brought in on the wings, as well as the ones he has tried but failed to bring in down low, are creating high expectations and frustration. I expect Buzz to take this program to a higher level than where we were during the 3 Amigos years, but I don't really see it with the players we currently have down low. Does anyone really expect the wings/guards we have now to be significantly better players than James, McNeal, Matthews, and Hayward? I don't. Maybe a bit better, but not enough to overcome the same shortcomings that plagued them.
Depth-wise, yes. Are we bigger than we we were before? Yes. If this is the worst recruiting class we get under Buzz, then that's a pretty solid base (Juan Anderson is going to be very good). Good grief, can we go a week without someone freaking out? Season hasn't even started yet. You don't think if we have a very good season that recruiting won't improve even more? And I for one have high hopes for Otule this season.
I'm not worried.
So far, the coach and the staff have a good track record.
In fact, Buzz usually comes up with some guy we have never even heard of that turns out to be great.
Quote from: Ruby on October 21, 2010, 03:52:02 PM
Since you disqualify so many positive arguements that may cheer you up, what positive arguement is ok to make? Just wanna know before I post my thoughts.
Not looking for cheering up, I was just venting. I think the "we won't get good ones until we get a big into the league" argument has a lot of merit and I don't disagree at all. I meant to get that across in my original post, and I never refuted that. I just don't feel like waiting until 2017 to start getting them.
"There are so few good bigs out there" is more of an excuse than anything else. Lesser programs get them all the time. And my point in regards to "Buzz has this program in a good place" was me explaining why I want a quality big so bad, not a disqualification of an argument. I just don't want the promise of this roster to be wasted because I am so excited about it.
Maybe you have an explanation, maybe there isn't one. Maybe you guys are satisfied with our big man situation.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on October 21, 2010, 04:13:58 PM
In fact, Buzz usually comes up with some guy we have never even heard of that turns out to be great.
Really? Like who? Gardner, who has never played a game? Mbao?
Thanks to BMA for debunking the DeWitt interest. I read about our alleged recruitment of him a few days ago, but hadn't heard a peep about us being involved with him for a couple years.
QuoteReally? Like who? Gardner, who has never played a game? Mbao?
Your joking right, Jimmy F'in Butler, Crowder, Fulce has been a quality guy. Basically all of the JUCO players...I hate to say this but when Crean left Buzz had to fill the roster out and attempt to even it out class wise and he did an impressive job in doing so.
Did he swing and miss a couple times, yes, but the quality has outweighed the negativity when it comes to Buzz' recruiting thus far.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 04:17:38 PM
Really? Like who? Gardner, who has never played a game? Mbao?
DJO!
Quote from: MuMark on October 21, 2010, 03:41:48 PM
good grief.......get a grip man.
The season is about to start....try to enjoy it.
ps. You're a pessimist.
Calm down, give Buzz the credit he deserves. MU will be just fine in the years 2 come
Quote from: 2002MUalum on October 21, 2010, 04:13:58 PM
I'm not worried.
So far, the coach and the staff have a good track record.
In fact, Buzz usually comes up with some guy we have never even heard of that turns out to be great.
Hey everyone. Looks like 2002 is buying into Buzz, although he did leave a qualifier. Chicos may be the holdout.
Quote from: damuts222 on October 21, 2010, 04:23:07 PM
Your joking right, Jimmy F'in Butler, Crowder, Fulce has been a quality guy. Basically all of the JUCO players...I hate to say this but when Crean left Buzz had to fill the roster out and attempt to even it out class wise and he did an impressive job in doing so.
Did he swing and miss a couple times, yes, but the quality has outweighed the negativity when it comes to Buzz' recruiting thus far.
I couldn't agree more with this. Buzz is a great recruiter and I love having him here.
But all those players you listed are either small forwards, or small forwards being forced to play the 4/5 because we don't have enough quality bigs.
I guess I might have misunderstood 2002's post (sorry if I did). I assumed he was talking about big men. If he is talking about players in general, then ok he is right, but I never questioned Buzz's ability to bring in quality wing players. His ability to do so is what has me so excited, but also worried we might not get as much as we can out of it.
bma
If we weren't going after DeWitt, then fine, but don't put that on me because pretty much everyone on here thought we were. There were numerous mentions of us and him in the last weeks/months.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 04:35:44 PM
I couldn't agree more with this. Buzz is a great recruiter and I love having him here.
But all those players you listed are either small forwards, or small forwards being forced to play the 4/5 because we don't have enough quality bigs.
I guess I might have misunderstood 2002's post (sorry if I did). I assumed he was talking about big men. If he is talking about players in general, then ok he is right, but I never questioned Buzz's ability to bring in quality wing players. His ability to do so is what has me so excited, but also worried we might not get as much as we can out of it.
Programs build reputations as they attain success. Simple matter of the fact is that Marquette is a guard school and a guard school alone.
Our limitation relative to our talent holding us accountable to results will remain the same as it has the last seven seasons.
Quote from: Ners on October 21, 2010, 03:54:10 PM
Mark - I like most of your posts, viewpoints and thoughts...but think you are going off that "big man at Marquette" ledge a like many. I do believe that there are so FEW dominant, highly skilled big men, that landing one isn't essential - so long as you have a solid big man for defensive purposes if needed (which Otule can provide.) In my opinion, a guy that is 6'7" and very athletic, who can pass, dribble and shoot..can create a ton of match up problems for teams with more "size" (and has more value than a 1-dimensional kid who is 6'10") So long as our PG and SG aren't midgets..we can compete, and compete well..NOW THAT WE FINALLY HAVE DEPTH THAT GOES ABOUT 10 DEEP.
I'm convinced that if we had just 2 more solid tweener/switchables like a Jamil Wilson/Jamail Jones last year...we definitely would have beat: FSU, WVU, NOVA, NC State, Georgetown in Big East tourney, and Washington. We were THAT close to being a Sweet 16 team last year. Zoubek at Duke wasn't a dominant big..nor was the Howard kid from Butler..WVU didn't have a traditonal "big," they were a team made up of 6'6"-6'8", rangy, athletic kids.
All very good points. Except that I don't want a dominant big man, just a good one. I'd love a guy like Zoubek. I hope Otule is that man, but I haven't seen it yet.
I am already seeing how I went a little too far off the deepend with this, but I have been concerned about this for many years and haven't been given any reason not to be by the big guys brought in in the last few years. I hope they are the answer, but the jury is still very much out.
That being said, I can't think of anyone that could do a better job than Buzz. I think he will get us where we want to go (yes, even in regards to bigs), but I am impatient.
Peace to all.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 04:53:11 PM
All very good points. Except that I don't want a dominant big man, just a good one. I'd love a guy like Zoubek. I hope Otule is that man, but I haven't seen it yet.
If Otule stays healthy and plays 15 minutes a game (a very big if), I see no reason he should not be at least, if not more, productive than Zoubek was last year.
I know this is a very small sample size for CO last year but:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=chris-otule&p1=brian-zoubek (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=chris-otule&p1=brian-zoubek)
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 04:53:11 PM
All very good points. Except that I don't want a dominant big man, just a good one. I'd love a guy like Zoubek. I hope Otule is that man, but I haven't seen it yet.
I am already seeing how I went a little too far off the deepend with this, but I have been concerned about this for many years and haven't been given any reason not to be by the big guys brought in in the last few years. I hope they are the answer, but the jury is still very much out.
That being said, I can't think of anyone that could do a better job than Buzz. I think he will get us where we want to go (yes, even in regards to bigs), but I am impatient.
Peace to all.
I know you are a big fan of the program...so knew the spirit of your post wasn't really malicious or snide..but a concern that many MU fans have due to the complexion of our roster ever since Merritt and RJax have been gone. RJax was very valuable to the Final Four team..but the reality is that there is NO way we go to the Final Four that year without DWade. A big man is by no means the end all be all for a team to get to the Final Four..yet I think a lot of people feel that way. Lastly, I have NO doubt that Otule can be the same type of player Zoubekc was for Duke by next year..if not even this year. He will be used as needed - ifgetting dominated on the glass, or by a big like Fab Melo at Cuse...and that probaly is the role most bigs will play in college basketball these days..unless of course they are an elite, DeMarcus Cousins type of talent.
Quote from: Ners on October 21, 2010, 03:54:10 PM
Mark - I like most of your posts, viewpoints and thoughts...but think you are going off that "big man at Marquette" ledge a like many. I do believe that there are so FEW dominant, highly skilled big men, that landing one isn't essential - so long as you have a solid big man for defensive purposes if needed (which Otule can provide.) In my opinion, a guy that is 6'7" and very athletic, who can pass, dribble and shoot..can create a ton of match up problems for teams with more "size" (and has more value than a 1-dimensional kid who is 6'10") So long as our PG and SG aren't midgets..we can compete, and compete well..NOW THAT WE FINALLY HAVE DEPTH THAT GOES ABOUT 10 DEEP.
I'm convinced that if we had just 2 more solid tweener/switchables like a Jamil Wilson/Jamail Jones last year...we definitely would have beat: FSU, WVU, NOVA, NC State, Georgetown in Big East tourney, and Washington. We were THAT close to being a Sweet 16 team last year. Zoubek at Duke wasn't a dominant big..nor was the Howard kid from Butler..WVU didn't have a traditonal "big," they were a team made up of 6'6"-6'8", rangy, athletic kids.
Heck, if we have a healthy Otule, or a productive EWill, we win most of those games. Jeronne sticking around and making normal progress probably helps us beat Nova, WVU, and Washington. We were one functioning 6'6"+ away.
Quote from: jmayer1 on October 21, 2010, 05:06:35 PM
If Otule stays healthy and plays 15 minutes a game (a very big if), I see no reason he should not be at least, if not more, productive than Zoubek was last year.
I know this is a very small sample size for CO last year but:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=chris-otule&p1=brian-zoubek (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=chris-otule&p1=brian-zoubek)
I don't see how Otule comes close to being the presence Zoubek was until maybe his senior year. Zoubek was tenacious rebounding/going for loose balls, and he had a mean streak that made people think when they went in to the lane. And once Zoubek got the ball in his hands, he'd keep it high and guard it with his elbows. No reason Otule can't do that, I just haven't seen it yet.
Seriously, MU has 2 new players next year lose 3 so we are 1 player short, I never believed that you can keep 13 players happy.
MU has a solid 11 potential starters the following year and 9 after that. It will be much easier to recruit next year, Buzz
went for a home run type player this year, maybe still will get 1 of them, if not, so what. The talent the next two and even the
next four years will be fine and entertaining to watch. If MU can surprise a little bit this year, recruiting battles can turn around. It is
hard to recruit when there is only 1 or 2 kids per year going to a high Division 1 school from Wisconsin. If MU gets 1 more kid, the year
will be good on recruiting. It may have to happen in spring. Most of the other schools are filling there rosters, so maybe MU gets a
transfer in the spring like Wilson. Patience everybody!
I think the main reason I am so concerned is because, while I see question marks at the 4 and 5 (if you don't see them you aren't looking), I see nothing but good at 1/2/3. I don't know if there are more than 5 or 6 programs where I'd prefer their rosters at 1, 2 and 3 over ours. And the rosters I would prefer come with names like Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Florida. I love that.
I simply have nothing else to focus my rampant pessimism on in regards to MU, its all golden. (just ask my friends, I can be quite the negative thinker. Don't get me started on the Packers this year)
I want big men too. All I want is Robert Jackson.
But we don't "need" a center. We need post presence.
And this is the Mbakwe Maymon hole in the program we are
Still recovering from. Those guys were not centers, but had
They played we would have gotten that extra defensive rebound
Against notre dame and in the ncaa.
We don't need to put a center in the nba to recruit bigs to MU.
We need to continue to win and put MU athletes in the nba.
Otule will not be zoubek. But his senior year he will be good.
And MU will be better with him and Gardner as a Jr.
Go Marquette. I am excited for this year and I feel your pain about
losing guys. But let's just keep stocking the shelves and we will be
pleased as this young group gets older.
Mark, maybe a front line next year of Wilson, Crowder and Otule will make you
fell better. Thank on the positive side.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 04:38:06 PM
bma
If we weren't going after DeWitt, then fine, but don't put that on me because pretty much everyone on here thought we were. There were numerous mentions of us and him in the last weeks/months.
lame...if everyone on this board jumped....
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 05:40:36 PM
I don't see how Otule comes close to being the presence Zoubek was until maybe his senior year. Zoubek was tenacious rebounding/going for loose balls, and he had a mean streak that made people think when they went in to the lane. And once Zoubek got the ball in his hands, he'd keep it high and guard it with his elbows. No reason Otule can't do that, I just haven't seen it yet.
Disagree. Zoubek was not a great, or even very good player, his senior year or any other year at Duke. If he was, he would have played more than the 19 minutes a game he averaged last year. Zoubek was not any better of a player than Barro was when he was here. If that is what you want for an MU big man, I see no reason Otule can't fill that role this year, provided he stays healthy.
I will say what everyone else should be saying, we have Jamil Wilson and Juan Anderson. By my count that makes 2 very legitimate players in the fold for next year. I like what Buzz is doing, we could settle for some lower level players, but this time around we don't need to fill roster spots. If Rodney Hood, Faust or Shaw join those two who will be concerned?
In Buzz We Trust!
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 04:38:06 PM
bma
If we weren't going after DeWitt, then fine, but don't put that on me because pretty much everyone on here thought we were. There were numerous mentions of us and him in the last weeks/months.
YOU brought it up at the start of the thread!
And the only time it was brought up here was because of speculation. There is no word that he ever visited campus, or that we there was any serious consideration by either party.
Size makes a big difference and it is a valid concern. There is just so little size out there that it is hard to get mad at Buzz for not landing much size.
We are not going to go from small guards like DJ, Acker, and Cubillan, and playing 7 players to a ten man rotation of athletic studs with NBA-potential bigs in one big step. We are taking baby steps out of the Crean-era. We have many big, athletic wings and depth this year. Buzz is only in year three. We should really wait until year five to judge exactly what Buzz wants to put onto the floor, and it may not be many bigs anyway.
ESPN had us associated with DeWitt: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/102085/keith-dewitt
We are still on his "also considered" but is no longer on the MU ESPN recruiting page. That is where it came from.
Quote from: jmayer1 on October 21, 2010, 06:27:40 PM
Disagree. Zoubek was not a great, or even very good player, his senior year or any other year at Duke. If he was, he would have played more than the 19 minutes a game he averaged last year. Zoubek was not any better of a player than Barro was when he was here. If that is what you want for an MU big man, I see no reason Otule can't fill that role this year, provided he stays healthy.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Zoubek, but watching the tourney, he was a huge factor in them being national champions. And he was way better than Barro.
I, like many others, understand and appreciate your frustration...I think we all share in that frustration to an extent. We look at the recruiting landscape through our MU glasses and don't understand how a "big" recruit could pass up the opportunity for immediate PT on a team with a very good back-court...
Sure, Buzz appears to have "swung and missed" on the top tier big men that were on the market this year...but if you look closely at any recruiting classes top 100 players it's predominantly guards and wings...the supply of true interior players is significantly smaller and, therefore, the competition for these recruits is very high...
It will likely take Buzz' staff developing the under-valued big men (ie. Gardner, O'Tule) or the occassional JUCO big man into potential NBA talents before we start closing on the top tier guys...
But don't lose hope...as another poster mentioned, while we may not have that 4-star big man in our lineup, Buzz has developed a roster of lengthy players who are, across the board, big enough to compete with just about any team in the NCAA.
Quote from: GOMUWFB on October 21, 2010, 06:39:04 PM
I will say what everyone else should be saying, we have Jamil Wilson and Juan Anderson. By my count that makes 2 very legitimate players in the fold for next year. I like what Buzz is doing, we could settle for some lower level players, but this time around we don't need to fill roster spots. If Rodney Hood, Faust or Shaw join those two who will be concerned?
In Buzz We Trust!
First of all DeWitt was rated less than 90. McDonald had a higher ranking and 4 years to develope. DeWitt would only have two years and I suspect he never would have got off the end of the bench. We also have Singleton to add to next year's team. We are okay as long as we do not lose anyone, but the seniors. It is important that Buzz has another NCAA team this year. As long as he keeps us in the NCAA he will be considered a good coach and that will keep the recruiting doors open.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on October 21, 2010, 06:58:15 PM
ESPN had us associated with DeWitt: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/102085/keith-dewitt
We are still on his "also considered" but is no longer on the MU ESPN recruiting page. That is where it came from.
That's because ESPN hasn't updated that section since his original commitment to Missouri over a year ago. In fact if you look at the list of also considered, not a single one of those schools was part of his recruitment this time around. That's all out of date info.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 04:38:06 PM
bma
If we weren't going after DeWitt, then fine, but don't put that on me because pretty much everyone on here thought we were. There were numerous mentions of us and him in the last weeks/months.
The numerous mentions have all been on this board, based off of no actual facts. Someone saw an ESPN profile months ago that still had us on his "also considered" section and concluded that we were still going after him, despite the fact that the section had been put together the year before when he committed to Missouri. It was taken as gospel without anyone actually looking to see if MU or any of the other schools mentioned were actually involved with him anymore.
Look at the article about his commitment, neither MU nor any of the schools ESPN listed as being a part of his recruiting were mentioned, and he had a whole new list of schools he was considering before committing to USM.
Otule can fill that role for the next several years if he can do something about those hands. I don't know if there's any sort of drill that would help that way. One thing I can say after seeing him last weekend is that he's in great physical shape.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 21, 2010, 06:57:12 PM
YOU brought it up at the start of the thread! of course I did, I never said I didn't mention him
And the only time it was brought up here was because of speculation. There is no word that he ever visited campus, or that we there was any serious consideration by either party.
Quotelame...if everyone on this board jumped....
We offered DeWitt coming out of high school, so it would make sense that we were after him now.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/tcu/basketball/recruiting/player-Keith-Dewitt-83081 (http://rivals.yahoo.com/tcu/basketball/recruiting/player-Keith-Dewitt-83081)
Also, we were and still are listed on his considered schools on ESPN, as HoopsMalone just showed. Considering how little info there is regarding JUCO recruiting, those are legitimate indications that there was interest. I'm not claiming we were involved this recruiting period, all I'm saying is that BMA calling me out for thinking we were involved is inappropriate.
Tons of people on this board mentioned we were involved with him throughout this recruiting season, some of whom I'm sure are now calling me out for doing so. So I don't really get why people are looking back with 20/20 hindsight and saying my thoughts were baseless, or why BMA didn't call them out before he committed elsewhere.
I took exception to the way he made it sound like I was pulling a connection between MU and DeWitt out of thin air.
Quote from: bma725 on October 21, 2010, 07:17:51 PM
The numerous mentions have all been on this board, based off of no actual facts.
How much info in recruiting is based completely off fact? A huge amount of recruiting info, and info on message boards, is based off of speculation.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 07:48:37 PM
How much info in recruiting is based completely off fact? A huge amount of recruiting info, and info on message boards, is based off of speculation.
Completely off fact? Not much. However there were absolutely no facts that we were recruiting him at all this go around. No buzz...no visits...nothing.
Quote from: Boone on October 21, 2010, 04:20:20 PM
Thanks to BMA for debunking the DeWitt interest. I read about our alleged recruitment of him a few days ago, but hadn't heard a peep about us being involved with him for a couple years.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/102085/keith-dewitt
The present ESPN profile for him lists DeWitt as drawing interest from MU.
They could, of course, be wrong.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 21, 2010, 06:59:53 PM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Zoubek, but watching the tourney, he was a huge factor in them being national champions. And he was way better than Barro.
Heard K on the Herd this morning.....he talked about Zoubek finally "getting it" and his game came together mid season. In his opinion that made the difference in the FF run. prior to that never thought that Zoubek did much but take up space.
Quote from: mu-rara on October 21, 2010, 04:29:52 PM
Hey everyone. Looks like 2002 is buying into Buzz, although he did leave a qualifier. Chicos may be the holdout.
Hey, I never said I didn't like the guy, and I never said I didn't think he was good at his job... I've just indicated that after 2.5 years, I'm not ready to be in love with the guy. Need to see more.
With this said, my default stance for all coaches is that the guy making close to 1million dollars to coach (used to be TC, now it's BW) knows more about hoops than I do... especially recruiting.
Therefore, I don't think I can sit here and pretend to be "concerned" because the reality is that the coaching staff knows what they are doing, and they have had a recent track record of doing well with what some people would consider "secondary recruits".
(Butler, Fulce, DJO, Buycks,)
Hysteria of the first magnitude. Chill.
The continued panic by MU fans over a "big man" is getting ridiculous. Otule and Gardner will be more than sufficient over the next 3 years. MU will not miss the Final Four as a result of Otule and Gardner being our big men...the only reason we'll miss is if Blue, Jones, Wilson and Smith aren't nearly as good as advertised or rated coming into MU. Wings and Guards determine the success of an NCAA program...so long as they are not completely and totally inept at the center position. Zoubeck was far from a dominant big man..WVU didn't have one, and Butler's big man Matt Howard was far from dominant. Relax all MU fans and give this thing another 1 or 2 years before freaking the f out.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 21, 2010, 07:52:43 PM
Completely off fact? Not much. However there were absolutely no facts that we were recruiting him at all this go around. No buzz...no visits...nothing.
Well where were to shoot down this clearly ridiculous connection when others were talking about DeWitt recently? Pretty easy to talk like this now...
Quote from: Ners on October 21, 2010, 11:08:43 PM
The continued panic by MU fans over a "big man" is getting ridiculous. Otule and Gardner will be more than sufficient over the next 3 years. MU will not miss the Final Four as a result of Otule and Gardner being our big men...the only reason we'll miss is if Blue, Jones, Wilson and Smith aren't nearly as good as advertised or rated coming into MU. Wings and Guards determine the success of an NCAA program...so long as they are not completely and totally inept at the center position. Zoubeck was far from a dominant big man..WVU didn't have one, and Butler's big man Matt Howard was far from dominant. Relax all MU fans and give this thing another 1 or 2 years before freaking the f out.
Apparently you are satisfied with our bigs. Forgive me for not being satisfied with having 2 guys on the roster above 6'7 who will maybe be "sufficient" at some point down the road, but are not right now. I'm tired of having to watch MU teams win
in spite of their bigs. And don't get confused into thinking I judging Buzz too quickly. This is a problem that isn't defined by any coach, its a problem of the program for a decade.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 22, 2010, 12:23:53 AM
Apparently you are satisfied with our bigs. Forgive me for not being satisfied with having 2 guys on the roster above 6'7 who will maybe be "sufficient" at some point down the road, but are not right now. I'm tired of having to watch MU teams win in spite of their bigs. And don't get confused into thinking I judging Buzz too quickly. This is a problem that isn't defined by any coach, its a problem of the program for a decade.
But if we had landed McDonald or dewitt, or even shaw they wouldn't help us for another few years down the road anyway. While a lot of us think shaw would play rt. away, the rest if those guys would.be in no better position for playing time than Gardner is this year. I am not "satisfied" with our bigs, but next year's freshmen can't help this year's squad. And next year CO and DG will be a year older and (god willing) ready to make much bigger contributions. This team might win "in spite" of their center position, and we all might be craving more.post presence, but keep.recruiting ousmane barros and their Jr. And Sr. Years will be great because the cupboard is full of ousmane barros behind.them.
Getting big men is a huge concernt and should not be dismissed. Guards are the most important thing, but if MU wants to take the next step from a 10-12 conference win and first or second round loss, we are going to need to develop big men. We might make one sweet 16 because our guards/wings are that good. But more often than not we will lose early in the tournament.
I am sick of losing early in the tournament. Buzz has gotten many bigs (Liam, Roseboro, Mbao, Otule, Gardner, that guy with the rape charge) but they have not worked out. It is very essential to get one though.
Being able to compete and being a Final Four contender is a huge difference. I would like to become a Final Four contender.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on October 22, 2010, 07:31:56 AM
Getting big men is a huge concernt and should not be dismissed. Guards are the most important thing, but if MU wants to take the next step from a 10-12 conference win and first or second round loss, we are going to need to develop big men. We might make one sweet 16 because our guards/wings are that good. But more often than not we will lose early in the tournament.
I am sick of losing early in the tournament. Buzz has gotten many bigs (Liam, Roseboro, Mbao, Otule, Gardner, that guy with the rape charge) but they have not worked out. It is very essential to get one though.
Being able to compete and being a Final Four contender is a huge difference. I would like to become a Final Four contender.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 22, 2010, 12:09:00 AM
Well where were to shoot down this clearly ridiculous connection when others were talking about DeWitt recently? Pretty easy to talk like this now...
If I tried to debunk every ridiculous recruiting rumor on MUScoop, I wouldn't have time for anything else.
Quote from: texaswarrior74 on October 21, 2010, 09:14:40 PM
Heard K on the Herd this morning.....he talked about Zoubek finally "getting it" and his game came together mid season. In his opinion that made the difference in the FF run. prior to that never thought that Zoubek did much but take up space.
If Zoubek played for MU, he would have seen about 6-8 minutes/game last season...because he would have constantly been in foul trouble. Don't underestimate the impact that playing at a refs-best-friend school like Duke has on a big, slow-moving hack like Zoubek.
As for MU's big man situation...I apologize if this has been brought up in the thread previously (I didn't read all of it) but I think it comes down to the whether Buzz would rather have a 6'5"-6'8" swingman who can come in and contribute for 4 years or bring in a 6'10"-7'0" project who may or may not pan out. Based on what I hear, a lot of MU fans and posters would rather have a 7-footer burried on the bench "maturing" than have a swingman seeing 8-10 mpg. Last offseason, posters were all over Buzz for not going after Ben Mills. It didn't matter that he clearly wasn't a Big East caliber player - he's big!
The fact of the matter is that Buzz has brought in some big "projects" and, for whatever reason, they have yet to work out. This is not unusual for programs. Like people have said numerous times before, there just aren't that many quality big men out there.
Who knows? Otule could go out and average 12-8 this season and 15-10 next year. He also could be a Chris Grimm-type player who doesn't score much but hold his own on D. That's not a bad thing, especially with the way this team is assembled.
I equate it to the dynamics of a baseball team. Typically teams like to get power from the corner positions (1B, 3B, RF, LF) but if you have a SS who hits with a lot of power, you can afford to have a singles-hitter in RF. The power is still there even if it comes from a different source. MU might not have a traditional center manning the paint, but if Fulce, Crowder and EWill can defend and Butler and the guards score points and do their part on the boards, you're still getting the same numbers. It's just not coming in a "traditional" way.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 22, 2010, 08:15:00 AM
If I tried to debunk every ridiculous recruiting rumor on MUScoop, I wouldn't have time for anything else.
Even if you had the time, it still couldn't be done. That's what makes this board fun -- reality schmeality, facts shmacks... we all believe what we want to believe.
Speaking of which, Election Day is only 11 days away!
I think Mark Charles is unfairly taking a hit here. I've had this exact back and forth with Tim several times. Granted, it kind of boils down to the wonderful message board question of "why can't we get a big man?".
However, maybe there is a ceiling for Marquette. Buzz has been in on a lot of highly rated recruits for a long time and hasn't closed the deal (and he's a closer). Buzz has been after big men but they aren't signing.
I'm not saying I agree with the perspective, but I definitely think it's a valid concern until proven otherwise.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on October 22, 2010, 07:31:56 AM
Getting big men is a huge concernt and should not be dismissed. Guards are the most important thing, but if MU wants to take the next step from a 10-12 conference win and first or second round loss, we are going to need to develop big men. We might make one sweet 16 because our guards/wings are that good. But more often than not we will lose early in the tournament.
I am sick of losing early in the tournament. Buzz has gotten many bigs (Liam, Roseboro, Mbao, Otule, Gardner, that guy with the rape charge) but they have not worked out. It is very essential to get one though.
Being able to compete and being a Final Four contender is a huge difference. I would like to become a Final Four contender.
I'm not dismissing the value of a big..but many Marquette fans have way too much of an obsession with getting a "big." The necessity of a big is really kind of an illusion - Look at last year's Final Four..NO team had a really good big..they were bit players. It is NOT a requirement to have bigs to make the Final Four..you just can't be a team of 5 good guard/wing players and have NO depth beyond that, nor ANY serviceable big on the roster. Gardner and Otule will be more than serviceable over the next 3 years. Marquette hasn't advanced these past 5 seasons due to the lack of any real depth on its roster, injuries ot McNeal, James, and then a terrible matchup with Stanford..not to mention a few buzzer beater shots in the tourney that probably prevented us from being in the Sweet 16 - Washington and Stanford...and this was with having a team comprised of basically 6 High-Major players, and then a significant drop off for roster spots 7-12. I'll be SHOCKED if the 2011-2012 MU team does NOT make the Elite 8/Final Four..assuming DJO doesn't go pro.
Quote from: Ners on October 22, 2010, 09:32:28 AM
I'll be SHOCKED if the 2011-2012 MU team does NOT make the Elite 8/Final Four..assuming DJO doesn't go pro.
Man, you are a glass 1/2 full kind of guy.
I hope you are right.
On thing that I was not sure if it was mentioned, but They said the 2012 class has almost double the number of of Bigs as the 2011 class which is kind of weak in that area. No need to take a Big just to take one, Get one that can play. 3 center's on a roster is good. So if we get one in 2012 that would be 3.
Even in Al's years, he did not get a big man until Jim Chones came on board, then Jerome
Whitehead. It is easier to recruit in your own backyard. So in saying that, Wisconsin needs
to grow some more tall timber, Phillip Nolan may be it, maybe others.
Yeah, this might be the second or third time I've posted this on the board. CALM DOWN and get a grip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJsTbKEHH9g
I find it funny to see Zoubek touted as a serviceable but not dominating big man, considering he was the #25-rated recruit in the 2006 RSCI and played less than 20 mpg as a senior. If we got a 7-footer rated that highly and he put up Zoubek's stats, he'd be considered an enormous disappointment.
Interesting if not completely fair comparison: http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=brian-zoubek&p1=ousmane-barro
Quote from: Ners on October 22, 2010, 09:32:28 AM
I'm not dismissing the value of a big..but many Marquette fans have way too much of an obsession with getting a "big." The necessity of a big is really kind of an illusion - Look at last year's Final Four..NO team had a really good big..they were bit players. It is NOT a requirement to have bigs to make the Final Four..you just can't be a team of 5 good guard/wing players and have NO depth beyond that, nor ANY serviceable big on the roster. Gardner and Otule will be more than serviceable over the next 3 years. Marquette hasn't advanced these past 5 seasons due to the lack of any real depth on its roster, injuries ot McNeal, James, and then a terrible matchup with Stanford..not to mention a few buzzer beater shots in the tourney that probably prevented us from being in the Sweet 16 - Washington and Stanford...and this was with having a team comprised of basically 6 High-Major players, and then a significant drop off for roster spots 7-12. I'll be SHOCKED if the 2011-2012 MU team does NOT make the Elite 8/Final Four..assuming DJO doesn't go pro.
When we've had the same problem for the better part of a decade I don't think it can be called an illusion. We've rarely had any "presence" in the middle -- whether it be a player like Hibbert or a player like Maxiell. That causes a lot of stress on the other four positions and if they're off their game for just a half (witness Florida State, NC State, Washington, et al.) Marquette will most likely lose the game.
I, and I'm sure many others, admire your confidence in Otule and Gardner but we've been down this road before where all of our guys could be "serviceable" and they turn out (with the rare exceptions of MJax and Burke) not to be. You can't blame people who have seen this script before, and seen it turn out disastrously, getting antsy that it continues unabated into a new regime.
Quote from: BCHoopster on October 22, 2010, 09:53:10 AM
Even in Al's years, he did not get a big man until Jim Chones came on board, then Jerome
Whitehead. It is easier to recruit in your own backyard. So in saying that, Wisconsin needs
to grow some more tall timber, Phillip Nolan may be it, maybe others.
Um, the state has grown its fair share of timber over the last half decade -- and they've all landed on the Badgers' roster. Its there, we just don't get it.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on October 22, 2010, 10:09:34 AM
When we've had the same problem for the better part of a decade I don't think it can be called an illusion. We've rarely had any "presence" in the middle -- whether it be a player like Hibbert or a player like Maxiell. That causes a lot of stress on the other four positions and if they're off their game for just a half (witness Florida State, NC State, Washington, et al.) Marquette will most likely lose the game.
I, and I'm sure many others, admire your confidence in Otule and Gardner but we've been down this road before where all of our guys could be "serviceable" and they turn out (with the rare exceptions of MJax and Burke) not to be. You can't blame people who have seen this script before, and seen it turn out disastrously, getting antsy that it continues unabated into a new regime.
I wouldn't all Burke a big, nor serviceable...Jamil Wilson is taller...and weighs only about 15 pounds less than Burke. Barro was a much better player than Burke. C Otule and Gardner..will easily provide what Burke did - I'd be highly, highly disappointed if they didn't. They may not get the minutes Burke did..due to there being much better roster options now, than when Burke was on board at MU.
Regarding Hibbert and Maxiel - I'm pretty sure we beat both of those guys teams/went .500 against them. I don't see us losing the FSU or NC State, nor WAH games due to a lack of a big...it was a lack of depth. We flat out ran out of gas against FSU..and you could make that same case against Washington.
Lastly, this is just Year 3 of the new regime...let's see how this year goes and next year....now that we have a roster largely the way Buzz wants it..and lets see the results before continuing to beat this dead horse drum of "we need a big, we need a big..I'm getting ready to jump off a bridge, because MU can't land a big!" Not saying you are the culprit..but that we as a fan base are way, way too obsessed with this..laregly due to some really, really bad luck in the NCA tourney the last 5 years, injuries, and mostly due to MU only going to the tourney with a roster of about 6 legit High-Major players each of these last 5 years...and then there being MAJOR drop off
Quote from: Ners on October 22, 2010, 10:21:48 AM
Lastly, this is just Year 3 of the new regime...let's see how this year goes and next year....now that we have a roster largely the way Buzz wants it..and lets see the results before continuing to beat this dead horse drum of "we need a big, we need a big..I'm getting ready to jump off a bridge, because MU can't land a big!" Not saying you are the culprit..but that we as a fan base are way, way too obsessed with this..laregly due to some really, really bad luck in the NCA tourney the last 5 years, injuries, and mostly due to MU only going to the tourney with a roster of about 6 legit High-Major players each of these last 5 years...and then there being MAJOR drop off
Thank you Ners. These are my thoughts exactly. A couple of weeks ago, I was looking at the Louisville boxscore from last year, and I was shocked. I had forgotten how bad our depth had gotten for that game with Buycks injured. We basically played *six* guys for that game, including two very small guards. Buzz has solved our depth problem first and foremost. If we are healthy, we will be able to better match up with all sorts of lineups, and not just be the "hustle team" that outworks people in order to succeed. If Buzz has these guys playing just as hard as they have been, with more versatility, we are going to be in much better shape for the next few years.
I would love to have a high-quality 7 footer, but quality depth is so much more important.
Quote from: Ners on October 22, 2010, 09:32:28 AM
I'm not dismissing the value of a big..but many Marquette fans have way too much of an obsession with getting a "big." The necessity of a big is really kind of an illusion - Look at last year's Final Four..NO team had a really good big..they were bit players. It is NOT a requirement to have bigs to make the Final Four..you just can't be a team of 5 good guard/wing players and have NO depth beyond that, nor ANY serviceable big on the roster. Gardner and Otule will be more than serviceable over the next 3 years. Marquette hasn't advanced these past 5 seasons due to the lack of any real depth on its roster, injuries ot McNeal, James, and then a terrible matchup with Stanford..not to mention a few buzzer beater shots in the tourney that probably prevented us from being in the Sweet 16 - Washington and Stanford...and this was with having a team comprised of basically 6 High-Major players, and then a significant drop off for roster spots 7-12. I'll be SHOCKED if the 2011-2012 MU team does NOT make the Elite 8/Final Four..assuming DJO doesn't go pro.
If you want to call it an obsession, thats fine. But I am concerned because I have seen way too many MU losses over the years where they were significantly better 1-3, but lost because an often average big man took over the game. I don't think we need a "dominant" big, as you keep going back to, I just want ones that will prevent the average bigs we face from looking dominant.
And just because Buzz loves swingmen doesn't mean the entire college basketball landscape is moving away from big men. Players are bigger now than they ever have been. Sure, WVU made that model work last year, but they have signed a 6'11 center this year, a 6'10 in Noreen in 2010, and Kilicli at 6'9 who is a downlow banger is a major piece of their squad moving forward. And Butler may not have had a dominant big guy, but they had the 6'9 Howard playing center who was their conference POY in 2009, so don't act like they were playing with anything like our roster.
As we have talked about before, Zoubek was huge for Duke, and he is a true center by any stretch. Coach K has said they wouldn't have won the title without him, and thats good enough for me. He is all I want. But don't say guys like Barro and Burke were just as good, because they weren't. The fact that MU fans always compare other teams' bigs to Barro and Burke should say everything that needs to be said about our bigs the last 8 years.
Or go back to the 2009 Final Four-UConn had Thabeet, UNC had a stud pf/c in Hansbrough plus Zeller, and Mich. St. had Suton. All bigs who were some of, if not the, most important guys on their team.
Or 2008, when Memphis had bigs Dozier and Taggart, UNC again had Hansbrough, Kansas had Cole Aldrich, a true center, and UCLA got nice contribution from center Alfred Aboya.
Or 2007, Florida had two future pro big men in Noah and Horford, UCLA had center kevin Love, Georgetown had Hibbert, and Ohio St. had Oden.
Just because not having a true big works every few years doesn't mean its the preferred model or the way of the future.
Just because Buzz recruits the 2/3 best, and those players usually make up about half the top100 recruits doesn't mean the center position is being phased out.
I believe we will have the most talent every coming into this year. We just need to add experience to the mix. We are highly athletic and talented. Another "big" will be nice, but we have a team that can score and play with anyone. There is no reason to be hung up or pessimistic. Buzz fixed our biggest need by adding talented depth and taller guards. Can't wait to watch the 2010-11 Warriors play!!!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 22, 2010, 08:15:00 AM
If I tried to debunk every ridiculous recruiting rumor on MUScoop, I wouldn't have time for anything else.
Thats a weak response. You're taking time to debunk it now, so why not back then when it would have actually been valuable info? You don't agree with my viewpoint, and that is fine, but you're trying to piggyback on BMA saying we were never interested when I'm sure you, like everyone else here, assumed we were, as there was valid reason to believe so.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 22, 2010, 11:02:04 AM
If you want to call it an obsession, thats fine. But I am concerned because I have seen way too many MU losses over the years where they were significantly better 1-3, but lost because an often average big man took over the game. I don't think we need a "dominant" big, as you keep going back to, I just want ones that will prevent the average bigs we face from looking dominant.
And just because Buzz loves swingmen doesn't mean the entire college basketball landscape is moving away from big men. Players are bigger now than they ever have been. Sure, WVU made that model work last year, but they have signed a 6'11 center this year, a 6'10 in Noreen in 2010, and Kilicli at 6'9 who is a downlow banger is a major piece of their squad moving forward. And Butler may not have had a dominant big guy, but they had the 6'9 Howard playing center who was their conference POY in 2009, so don't act like they were playing with anything like our roster.
As we have talked about before, Zoubek was huge for Duke, and he is a true center by any stretch. Coach K has said they wouldn't have won the title without him, and thats good enough for me. He is all I want. But don't say guys like Barro and Burke were just as good, because they weren't. The fact that MU fans always compare other teams' bigs to Barro and Burke should say everything that needs to be said about our bigs the last 8 years.
Or go back to the 2009 Final Four-UConn had Thabeet, UNC had a stud pf/c in Hansbrough plus Zeller, and Mich. St. had Suton. All bigs who were some of, if not the, most important guys on their team.
Or 2008, when Memphis had bigs Dozier and Taggart, UNC again had Hansbrough, Kansas had Cole Aldrich, a true center, and UCLA got nice contribution from center Alfred Aboya.
Or 2007, Florida had two future pro big men in Noah and Horford, UCLA had center kevin Love, Georgetown had Hibbert, and Ohio St. had Oden.
Just because not having a true big works every few years doesn't mean its the preferred model or the way of the future.
Just because Buzz recruits the 2/3 best, and those players usually make up about half the top100 recruits doesn't mean the center position is being phased out.
Good data about the 2007, 2008, 2009 Final Four teams. Couple points of clarification..I've been saying all we need is a serviceable big..NOT dominant..and that Otule and Gardner can provide this. The bigs you point out from the Final Four teams were largely considered Top 20 prospects nationally..minus Suton. Taggart wasn't exactly a "big." These guys were the "dominant" big of their time...and as you wrote, you are not asking for a dominant big..just serviceable. It's been pointed out in this thread that Zoubeck was a Top 25 recruit..AND that Barro's numbers compared favorable to Zoubek's - so was Ouse really that much less of a player than Zoubek??
I don't think anyone denies the value of a "big." My personal opinion is that we have 2 on the roster right now...Otule and Gardner..that can be effective for us the next 3 years. Let's see how it plays out. These last 5 years of MU basketball have been in many ways..the best of times and worst of times...totally exciting, entertaining and fun, yet at the same time heartbreaking and frustrating...but our lack of a "big," was NOT the sole or even primary reason for all of the heart break...I've stated those reasons many times in this thread already...(again, just my opinion and I'm not essentially disagreeing with yours).
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 22, 2010, 11:14:18 AM
Thats a weak response. You're taking time to debunk it now, so why not back then when it would have actually been valuable info? You don't agree with my viewpoint, and that is fine, but you're trying to piggyback on BMA saying we were never interested when I'm sure you, like everyone else here, assumed we were, as there was valid reason to believe so.
There is a difference between someone stating "we are recruiting John Doe," even though there isn't any evidence for it, and you saying "we didn't get John Doe, and it is symbolic of our program's problems." In the first case, it is a mere rumor. In the second, you are making a point and back it up with a false assumption.
To use a potential real life example, it would be one thing for someone to say "I hear Buzz is after Sam Dekker...the kid from Sheboyban." It's something else entirely for someone to say "The fact that UW got Sam Dekker is symbolic of the fact that Buzz is going to have trouble going head-to-head with Bo for in state recruits." The first is merely a rumor that is false. The second attempts to make a larger point but it is built on a falsehood - Buzz was never after Sam Dekker.
When you use misinformation to underpin a larger point, it is going to cause more people to say "you're wrong" than if you simply state the misinformation on its own.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 22, 2010, 11:02:04 AM
But I am concerned because I have seen way too many MU losses over the years where they were significantly better 1-3, but lost because an often average big man took over the game.
This obsession over "bigs" is kind of shortsighted.
Jerel McNeal doesn't play here anymore. Wade doesn't play here anymore. Travis, Wes, DJ are all gone. MU could recruit the #1 big man this year, next year, and the year after and it wouldn't retroactively make those teams better, and it wouldn't really guarantee future success either.
You have to get good players at
every position on the roster. To pretend that landing a "top big" would suddenly launch MU to a magical next level wishful thinking. Are we sure Junior is that good? Is there enough scoring off of the bench? Is there good enough shooting to prevent double teams? We don't know.
MU will have to continue to get talented players at
every position and coach them up accordingly.
MU doesn't have some magical unlimited supply of guards that will never go dry in the next 100 years, so this obsession over "bigs" is a bit silly, no?
In 2004, MU had a "talented big" (Marcus Jackson), who ended up as the default PG because Travis got hurt. What's my point? Obsessing over 1 position and acting like it is the holy grail isn't really accurate.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on October 22, 2010, 11:49:08 AM
This obsession over "bigs" is kind of shortsighted.
Jerel McNeal doesn't play here anymore. Wade doesn't play here anymore. Travis, Wes, DJ are all gone. MU could recruit the #1 big man this year, next year, and the year after and it wouldn't retroactively make those teams better, and it wouldn't really guarantee future success either.
You have to get good players at every position on the roster. To pretend that landing a "top big" would suddenly launch MU to a magical next level wishful thinking. Are we sure Junior is that good? Is there enough scoring off of the bench? Is there good enough shooting to prevent double teams? We don't know.
MU will have to continue to get talented players at every position and coach them up accordingly.
MU doesn't have some magical unlimited supply of guards that will never go dry in the next 100 years, so this obsession over "bigs" is a bit silly, no? True, but they have more than enough, looking forward. Its tough to say MU isn't loaded at 1-3. Do you really think we don't have enough there? Is guard a bigger need than center??
In 2004, MU had a "talented big" (Marcus Jackson), who ended up as the default PG because Travis got hurt. What's my point? Obsessing over 1 position and acting like it is the holy grail isn't really accurate. If you haven't seen how not having better/any big guy has killed us countless times over the years, then you're missing something. It is a major hurdle for this program.
Thank you for making my point for me. We have more than enough talented players at 1, 2, and 3, and the number of players we have put into the NBA at those positions should show that they are being coached wonderfully. As you say, we need good players at every position. We do at most, but not all. That is why we need better bigs. I think we have more than enough at the smaller positions to get to the next level.
But as you said, we need good players at every position. We simply haven't had them in a long time down low, and I am frustrated by that.
And by the way, if we got the top big in the next 3 classes, I would personally guarantee huge improvements for this program. Who wouldn't?? Thats kind of a crazy argument.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 22, 2010, 10:34:53 AM
We basically played *six* guys for that game, including two very small guards. Buzz has solved our depth problem first and foremost.
We had the depth "problem" solved last year as well. At the end of the spring signing period, we had all 13 scholarships awarded, and none used on an ineligible transfer.
At the start of the year, nobody knew that:
1. Roseboro would be gone by the first day of class.
2. Maymon would leave mid season
3. Otule would suffer a season-ending injury three games into the year.
4. Cadougan would be injured and miss the first half of the season and never really fully recover.
5. Mbao would not play due to coach's choice & later, injury
6. Williams would play sparingly due to coach's choice
Without those six, it would leave a seven man rotation of Butler, Hayward, Fulce, Cubillan, Acker and DJO.
This year, we're only slightly ahead of ahead of last year's pace. By this time last year we already lost Roseboro for good, and Cadougan was down with injury. But we only have 12 scholarship players available to begin with since Wilson uses a scholarship but can't play.
At this point we just don't know how many of the new players (if any) will meet Buzz's exacting standards for earning playing time--they may sit like Mbao and Williams. Yes, we suspected that Mbao was a project when he arrived--but Williams was a top 100 player and even he sat.
We don't know if we'll suffer fewer, the same, or more injuries--or whether they will occur to key player or reserves. It's just a complete unknown.
We don't know if a player will choose to leave (or are asked to leave) mid season. We can all hope this isn't the case, but last year we didn't expect Roseboro and Maymon to leave.
We don't know if a player will become academically ineligible--again,we hope not, but we just don't know.
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 22, 2010, 12:23:27 PM
And by the way, if we got the top big in the next 3 classes, I would personally guarantee huge improvements for this program. Who wouldn't?? Thats kind of a crazy argument.
It's a bit of hyperbole for sure, but here's the point.
You can have the best center in the game, but if you don't have the other players to go with him, you'll be a good team (not a great team).
MU has had good guards in the past. That doesn't mean that there will be an endless stream of good guards at MU forever, so the idea MU only needs to land a top "big" just isn't accurate.
What would be accurate is something like:
"MU needs to bring in talented players at every position because as we have seen in the past, 1 dimensional teams can only go so far."
Saying or insinuating simply: "We need a big man!" is silly.
*Please note, I'm not picking on you specifically, just the constant buzz around here of posters saying "we need a big!" and then listing teams in the tournament that do well with their big men.
I've got earth shattering news for everybody: The best teams in the country have talented players at every position, and they don't always fit in the nice little package of "center" or "point guard".
To assume that MU has "the guards" wrapped up forever because we've had a good run of them lately is foolish.
Quote from: Ners on October 22, 2010, 10:21:48 AM
I wouldn't all Burke a big, nor serviceable...Jamil Wilson is taller...and weighs only about 15 pounds less than Burke. Barro was a much better player than Burke. C Otule and Gardner..will easily provide what Burke did - I'd be highly, highly disappointed if they didn't. They may not get the minutes Burke did..due to there being much better roster options now, than when Burke was on board at MU.
Regarding Hibbert and Maxiel - I'm pretty sure we beat both of those guys teams/went .500 against them. I don't see us losing the FSU or NC State, nor WAH games due to a lack of a big...it was a lack of depth. We flat out ran out of gas against FSU..and you could make that same case against Washington.
Lastly, this is just Year 3 of the new regime...let's see how this year goes and next year....now that we have a roster largely the way Buzz wants it..and lets see the results before continuing to beat this dead horse drum of "we need a big, we need a big..I'm getting ready to jump off a bridge, because MU can't land a big!" Not saying you are the culprit..but that we as a fan base are way, way too obsessed with this..laregly due to some really, really bad luck in the NCA tourney the last 5 years, injuries, and mostly due to MU only going to the tourney with a roster of about 6 legit High-Major players each of these last 5 years...and then there being MAJOR drop off
You didn't think Burke was a serviceable 5 playing within James, McNeal, Matthews, and Hayward? I thought he was pretty good at his job Senior year. We all view players differently though. And I'm not sure what Wilson has to do with a serviceable bigs discussion as he's not even on that side of the squiggly line.
You make my point on the depth. We consistently, over the last decade, have played wings out of position at the 5 to make up for no presence. That in turn weakens the wing depth and moves the guards which stresses the four remaining players on the floor. Stress like that leads to poor play. Poor play leads to losing a 17 point lead with 16 minutes left in the game.
As long as you win, there is always time to fix the problems that come up every year. Just ask Les Miles.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on October 22, 2010, 01:28:05 PM
It's a bit of hyperbole for sure, but here's the point.
You can have the best center in the game, but if you don't have the other players to go with him, you'll be a good team (not a great team). But we have those players. Thats why I want a center so bad.
MU has had good guards in the past. That doesn't mean that there will be an endless stream of good guards at MU forever, so the idea MU only needs to land a top "big" just isn't accurate. I don't take it for granted, but MU hasn't had trouble getting great perimeter players in a long time. I have 100% confidence that as long as Buzz is here, he will have no trouble in this regard. We already have a stable of these players, and another one lined up in Anderson.
Do you doubt this coach/program's ability to get good perimeter players?
What would be accurate is something like:
"MU needs to bring in talented players at every position because as we have seen in the past, 1 dimensional teams can only go so far." Thats pretty much exactly what I have been saying the whole time--that we need talent at all positions, not just the perimeter. I don't know how or why people think I'm saying center is by a mile the most important position. I'm not. But there is a ceiling to a team when literally every team you play has an advantage at a position, any position.
Saying or insinuating simply: "We need a big man!" is silly. No its not. Big man, in my opinion, is simply the only thing this roster needs
*Please note, I'm not picking on you specifically, just the constant buzz around here of posters saying "we need a big!" and then listing teams in the tournament that do well with their big men. Thats fine, I know my opinion is shared by a lot of MU fans. Maybe there aren't many here, but this has been a concern to many invested in this program for a long time
I've got earth shattering news for everybody: The best teams in the country have talented players at every position, and they don't always fit in the nice little package of "center" or "point guard". Exactly.
To assume that MU has "the guards" wrapped up forever because we've had a good run of them lately is foolish. I have no reason to think it won't continue into the near future
Quote from: MarkCharles on October 22, 2010, 04:07:39 PM
Fair enough.
I'm just not sure that there is a never ending stream of guards coming to MU, and therefore I don't get as tied into "we need a big man!" (shakes fist).
In 2004, MU had a good shot to make the tournament if A. Travis didn't get hurt or B. There was a competent back-up PG.
It wasn't a shortage of "big men" that hurt that team. It was a shortage of
overall talent and somebody who could bring the ball up that hurt that team. Shaq couldn't have won a tournament game with that team when Marcus Jackson was playing default PG.