A trend of "bait and switch"?
if I understand your post, it would actually be a 'reverse' bait and switch..., as we are receiving better value than promised, rather than less.
Maymon left US to get a better shot at the NBA since clearly he and Lazar could never make the NBA trying to play the 5 at only 6-foot-5. Instead he went to Tennessee, which has ONE NBA product in CJ Watson.
As for Brett Roseboro, clearly you are right. Clearly Buzz was wrong on Roseboro, who was arrested along with three teammates after a stabbing of opposing players. Was that really worth the 22 points and 12 rebounds this season for St. B's? That's not per game – and that's his total in 31 games for St. B's, so an extra basket and rebound from him every three games.
We don't know the story on DJ, and I do hope it was voluntary, but I don't believe it's necessarily better for someone to come to MU before realizing the game is moving way too fast for them, then to move on and find a program where they can really contribute and participate.
How many times do you run into someone successful in life who says, "the best thing that happened to me was when I lost that job, I never would have found my nitch." People in wealth management are amazed that most of the most successful people start with a setback.
I want nothing but the best for DJ, but it may have just become apparent at some point this wasn't the best fit for him, and I'd rather have it happen now. Kind of like feeling bad when the wedding gets called off last minute, but realizing it's better than a divorce in a year. I hope the initial LOI may have increased DJs marketability, but stop the Buzz hating.
Quote from: augoman on July 01, 2010, 08:29:57 PM
if I understand your post, it would actually be a 'reverse' bait and switch..., as we are receiving better value than promised, rather than less.
I believe that Knight Commission was looking at it from the point of view of those dealing with Buzz, and posing the question if 'bait and switch' is what Buzz was doing to them from their point of view.
Quote from: LittleMurs on July 01, 2010, 08:56:42 PM
I believe that Knight Commission was looking at it from the point of view of those dealing with Buzz, and posing the question if 'bait and switch' is what Buzz was doing to them from their point of view.
It still doesn't make any sense.
This is getting ridiculous. If anything, UNO was the other way around, the school made promises to Buzz and didn't deliver. I'm just glad there's yet another thread discussing this. ::)
Quote from: Knight Commission on July 01, 2010, 08:26:50 PM
A trend of "bait and switch"?
lol are you an ass all the time?...or has something set you off recently? Can you break your statement down a bit more?
Discuss...
Quote from: Litehouse on July 01, 2010, 09:18:14 PM
This is getting ridiculous. If anything, UNO was the other way around, the school made promises to Buzz and didn't deliver.
+1
Quote from: Litehouse on July 01, 2010, 09:18:14 PM
I'm just glad there's yet another thread discussing this. ::)
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Knight Commission is clearly in the dark.
This fall, UNO men's basketball will be competing as a D-III school. When Buzz departed UNO, he stated it was because the school couldn't make the necessary commitment needed to be a successful D-1 program. Buzz was right.
the "Knight Commission" could be Chico's second screen name....
Buzz 3, Knight Commission 0
Roseboro a disaster, Lazar pulling in $1.7 million next two years to prove Maymon wrong and New Orleans is now Division 3. If those are your best examples, think our coach has a pretty good record.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on July 01, 2010, 10:51:50 PM
the "Knight Commission" could be Chico's second screen name....
Considering I disagree with Knight Commission on about 75% of things, I don't think so. But whatever floats your flotilla.
I believe he said Buzz should be fired for this. I don't agree, but that's just one example of many.
UNO is a basketball joke and was completely in the wrong since THEY actually fired Buzz, not the other way around.
Jeronne Maymon will never make it at Tennessee. He has the same attitude problems and Bruce Pearl will not take this "I play where I want to play mentality"
Roseboro is an embarrassment to the Bonnies and it looks like we dodged a bullet.
And no one is happy about the way we treated Newbill, but let me tell you something; Marquette spent 10 million dollars on their basketball program last year. That's more than every school in the Big East save for Georgetown. Now you may think college basketball is a tool to make kids feel better about their lives, but the reality of the situation is that college basketball is a business, and here at Marquette it's the only business in town. Does that justify the Newbill situation? Does it make it right? No, of course not, but at the end of the day if you give me the option of having a coach who will jump at the opportunity to make his team better I'll take it over a coach who will let the same opportunity pass him up to save face. What Buzz did was not corrupt, it was not illegal, it was at the very most cold-hearted.
Quote from: SacWarrior on July 02, 2010, 02:47:39 AM
UNO is a basketball joke and was completely in the wrong since THEY actually fired Buzz, not the other way around.
Jeronne Maymon will never make it at Tennessee. He has the same attitude problems and Bruce Pearl will not take this "I play where I want to play mentality"
Roseboro is an embarrassment to the Bonnies and it looks like we dodged a bullet.
And no one is happy about the way we treated Newbill, but let me tell you something; Marquette spent 10 million dollars on their basketball program last year. That's more than every school in the Big East save for Georgetown. Now you may think college basketball is a tool to make kids feel better about their lives, but the reality of the situation is that college basketball is a business, and here at Marquette it's the only business in town. Does that justify the Newbill situation? Does it make it right? No, of course not, but at the end of the day if you give me the option of having a coach who will jump at the opportunity to make his team better I'll take it over a coach who will let the same opportunity pass him up to save face. What Buzz did was not corrupt, it was not illegal, it was at the very most cold-hearted.
And that's exactly what oversigning.com website is trying to do: make oversigning a violation.
And if they're equally serious about the situation, the Big East should beat the NCAA to the punch. But they're also seeing $$$ with super-conferences forming or getting stronger.
Quote from: SacWarrior on July 02, 2010, 02:47:39 AM
Does it make it right? No, of course not, but at the end of the day if you give me the option of having a coach who will jump at the opportunity to make his team better I'll take it over a coach who will let the same opportunity pass him up to save face. What Buzz did was not corrupt, it was not illegal, it was at the very most cold-hearted.
I agree with this to a point, but part of what made has made Buzz so endearing is that he's seemed to be the opposite. That story about the ill Marquette fan that he brought to the Awards dinner and gave him a chance to meet the entire team was one of those heart-warming moments that make you think he's playing the straight-shooter role both on and off the court.
In the past, we've reconciled the UNO story with Buzz's version of events, despite it being clear that people on their end weren't happy with how things played out. Roseboro's lack of production at St. Bonnie and his stabbing incident make it easy to look the other way on any wrongdoing by us there. Maymon's dad is clearly a bit deluded, and it seems easy to point the finger there. But again, this is a trend of incidents that does make one wonder a bit.
I'm still in Buzz's camp, I still feel the team has been improved, but I really want to believe that Buzz is as stand-up a guy as he comes across. I hope that he learns from this Newbill situation and is a bit more careful in the future. Possible growing pains of a young coach, I can accept that, but I certainly don't want this to be an annual trend.
Quote from: SacWarrior on July 02, 2010, 02:47:39 AM
UNO is a basketball joke and was completely in the wrong since THEY actually fired Buzz, not the other way around.
Jeronne Maymon will never make it at Tennessee. He has the same attitude problems and Bruce Pearl will not take this "I play where I want to play mentality"
Roseboro is an embarrassment to the Bonnies and it looks like we dodged a bullet.
Can you point me to the report that said Buzz Williams was fired from UNO? Every story I read said he quit - that's why UNO was suing him for breach of contract.
Quote from: Norm on July 02, 2010, 08:44:56 AM
Can you point me to the report that said Buzz Williams was fired from UNO? Every story I read said he quit - that's why UNO was suing him for breach of contract.
Ding! Ding!
http://blog.nola.com/tpsports/2007/07/uno_coach_resigns.html
That's what I thought to be the case reinko...thanks for the link.
Buzz quit because UNO pulled a bait and switch on HIM. Maymon left because his dad wanted the offense run through his freshman son instead of a first round draft pick. Buzz called his bluff and said no one is bigger than the team. Hardly a bait and switch. Roseboro played summer pickup games and it became obvious to player and coaches that he was unlikely to be a major contributor anytime soon. He wasn't recruited over and we ended up missing him as a practice body, though apparently the assessment was right, as he barely contributed at St. Bonny and found legal trouble. ONE guy may have a legitimate beef. One.
Quote from: tower912 on July 02, 2010, 03:16:42 PM
Buzz quit because UNO pulled a bait and switch on HIM. Maymon left because his dad wanted the offense run through his freshman son instead of a first round draft pick. Buzz called his bluff and said no one is bigger than the team. Hardly a bait and switch. Roseboro played summer pickup games and it became obvious to player and coaches that he was unlikely to be a major contributor anytime soon. He wasn't recruited over and we ended up missing him as a practice body, though apparently the assessment was right, as he barely contributed at St. Bonny and found legal trouble. ONE guy may have a legitimate beef. One.
Interesting that you listed 3 different situations, 4 if you add DJ, all with one common ingredient... Buzz Williams. If all of these situations played out the way you have described, then we can at least question Buzz's judgement in getting involved with these parties.
I'm not calling for Buzz's head but I would like him or the university to take some corrective action.
What about the Tyshaun Taylor situation? Shouldn't he have honored his commitment to us as well?
This has become a business and should be treated as such; isn't a letter of intent a precursor to a contract?
Quote from: MUSF on July 02, 2010, 03:31:39 PM
Interesting that you listed 3 different situations, 4 if you add DJ, all with one common ingredient... Buzz Williams. If all of these situations played out the way you have described, then we can at least question Buzz's judgement in getting involved with these parties.
I'm not calling for Buzz's head but I would like him or the university to take some corrective action.
In 2 of the situations, it was what was done TO Buzz (UNO and Maymon), 1 was a misjudging the abilities of a recruit and doing the honest thing and cutting clean on both sides. So IMO, 2 situations actually make him look good. (Maymon and UNO) One is neutral. Only if you accept Newbill's camp's version of events does Buzz look REALLLLLLLLY bad. If this becomes the norm, then I definitely want MU to step in.
Quote from: CAINMUTINY on July 02, 2010, 04:47:55 PM
What about the Tyshaun Taylor situation? Shouldn't he have honored his commitment to us as well?
This has become a business and should be treated as such; isn't a letter of intent a precursor to a contract?
Yes, he should, and this came to mind for me the other day. But just because Taylor didn't do right by Marquette doesn't give MU the right to not do right by Newbill.
I'm completely ready to put this in the past, and am sick of discussing it, but I REALLY don't want this to become the norm at Marquette. The situation should have been handled better, hopefully next time it will be :)
Quote from: CAINMUTINY on July 02, 2010, 04:47:55 PM
What about the Tyshaun Taylor situation? Shouldn't he have honored his commitment to us as well?
This has become a business and should be treated as such; isn't a letter of intent a precursor to a contract?
Yes he should have....are you arguing moral equivalency? Billy did it down the street so I should be able to?
It was an incomplete and ultimately faulty argument. It is a messy business and hopefully we don't get our hands too dirty on the way to the top.
Quote from: tower912 on July 02, 2010, 07:47:59 PM
In 2 of the situations, it was what was done TO Buzz (UNO and Maymon), 1 was a misjudging the abilities of a recruit and doing the honest thing and cutting clean on both sides. So IMO, 2 situations actually make him look good. (Maymon and UNO) One is neutral. Only if you accept Newbill's camp's version of events does Buzz look REALLLLLLLLY bad. If this becomes the norm, then I definitely want MU to step in.
Many at UNO and the Maymons would argue that Buzz did something negative TO them. Add that to Newbill and UNO and you at least have communication issues or poor judgement. In all of these situations, I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle and I am pretty sure the Maymons are crazy but it still reflects poorly on Buzz's ability to communicate his message effectively or his judgement for dealing with these people / institutions.
You're right, it's not REALLLLY bad but it still needs to be identified, addressed, and corrected by Buzz and MU. I don't think we should wait until this, "becomes the norm."
Quote from: MUSF on July 02, 2010, 10:39:53 PM
Many at UNO and the Maymons would argue that Buzz did something negative TO them. Add that to Newbill and UNO and you at least have communication issues or poor judgement. In all of these situations, I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle and I am pretty sure the Maymons are crazy but it still reflects poorly on Buzz's ability to communicate his message effectively or his judgement for dealing with these people / institutions.
You're right, it's not REALLLLY bad but it still needs to be identified, addressed, and corrected by Buzz and MU. I don't think we should wait until this, "becomes the norm."
The only thing that is 'reflected poorly' is your spelling. Are you British? Hope you like it hot - 'judgement' day is coming.
I'm not sure everyone that posts here lives in the real world. It's quite amazing and unfortunate. I'm far more concerned with the slowness of the users of this message board than anything that has transpired in the MU bball program this week.
If you "don't think we should wait until this becomes the norm", what do you propose?
Quote from: MUSF on July 02, 2010, 03:31:39 PM
Interesting that you listed 3 different situations, 4 if you add DJ, all with one common ingredient... Buzz Williams. If all of these situations played out the way you have described, then we can at least question Buzz's judgement in getting involved with these parties.
I'm not calling for Buzz's head but I would like him or the university to take some corrective action.
Who the "f" are you? It's been laid out very clearly in 3 of these 4 scenarios where Buzz is guilty of nothing. You want to continue to belabor the point that he's shady. Personally, if I were running this board -I'd call for your head and have some corrective action taken to shut your account down and the continued idiotic posts you are making regarding this matter. You can argue who this Newbill situation was handled - but to bring UNO, Maymon and Roseboro into this..it ruins your credibility and certainly makes it look like you have an agenda/ulterior motive.
Quote from: Ners on July 02, 2010, 10:51:44 PM
Who the "f" are you? It's been laid out very clearly in 3 of these 4 scenarios where Buzz is guilty of nothing. You want to continue to belabor the point that he's shady. Personally, if I were running this board -I'd call for your head and have some corrective action taken to shut your account down and the continued idiotic posts you are making regarding this matter. You can argue who this Newbill situation was handled - but to bring UNO, Maymon and Roseboro into this..it ruins your credibility and certainly makes it look like you have an agenda/ulterior motive.
Wow. Calm down.
I am not and have never called Buzz shady. I have never attacked Buzz's character or insulted him personally. Read some of my other posts if you need proof.
I am also not taking the Maymon, Roseboro's coach, or DJs side. I have absolutely no agenda or ulterior motive. I hope Buzz is the coach at MU for the next 20 years.
All criticism isn't an attack. I just want Buzz and MU to do a sanity check on how they are communicating, managing their message and image, and the people they are choosing to get involved with. That's called growth and self-improvement in my mind.
Quote from: MUSF on July 02, 2010, 11:06:54 PM
Wow. Calm down.
I am not and have never called Buzz shady. I have never attacked Buzz's character or insulted him personally. Read some of my other posts if you need proof.
I am also not taking the Maymon, Roseboro's coach, or DJs side. I have absolutely no agenda or ulterior motive. I hope Buzz is the coach at MU for the next 20 years.
All criticism isn't an attack. I just want Buzz and MU to do a sanity check on how they are communicating, managing their message and image, and the people they are choosing to get involved with. That's called growth and self-improvement in my mind.
Great - but when your point gets rebutted, and by several posters - let it go..don't belabor the point. UNO, Maymon and Roseboro have no merit for mention in this Newbill situation. When you grasp for straws like bringing up UNO/Maymon/Roseboro - it makes you come across as having an agenda. I've refrained from commenting on all of your other posts that all harp on Buzz - but enough is enough. Don't automatically assume guilt before innoncence. I don't like how this Newbill thing transpired..but we have some posters asking if this is a fireable offense...you belaboring the point...give our coach a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. He's assembled probably the most talented team EVER in MU basketball history...and this is the type of thanks he gets or sh$t he gets?? Let it go..hopefully a situation like Newbill doesn't happen again..and Buzz will learn from it..though I have little doubt he communicated the message of prep school being a possibility for Newbill from square 1 in the recruitment and LOI stage.
Quote from: Ners on July 02, 2010, 11:17:42 PM
UNO, Maymon and Roseboro have no merit for mention in this Newbill situation.
Maybe not to us, but they certainly do to the perception that is built up in other fanbases. It's easy to say we don't care what Bucky, or DePaul, or WVU think of us, but when I discuss basketball with fans of those teams, I want to do so in a way that lets me hold my head high because Marquette represents a high standard.
I still love Buzz. I still absolutely want Buzz here. But if you think that a broader public perception won't try to lump together Buzz's exit from UNO with the insanity of the Maymon family and the "running off" of Roseboro and Newbill, I think that's a bit naive. Besides, look at the title of the thread in which you are posting. Pretty sure that the events, at least in here, are being compared, so railroading someone for posting in the spirit of the thread and commenting on it is more than a bit out of line.
I want to believe that Buzz left UNO for the right reasons. They claim they have grievances, honestly, I don't care that much. Tim Maymon is nuts and is trying to live vicariously (and probably profit off of) his son, I don't care that much. Roseboro was brought to campus, didn't seem to fit the bill, and ended up going to a school that is probably more suited to his abilities (and hopefully off-court tendencies), again, I don't care that much. And Newbill seems to have been told "you'll get a shot if we don't find someone who fits our needs better", and then got upset when we found someone who fit our needs better. Again, I don't care that much.
But it's not that I don't care at all. I care that you can logically put together a line of questionable situations that has people on other boards calling our coach, the man who stands on the front line as the single most recognizable spokesman for our university, a "slime ball", a "cold-hearted mother <expletive>", a "tool", "totally full of <expletive>". Those are just a few from the links Chicos put up earlier. Regardless what you think of him or the people posting them, the comments are out there, and I'd prefer to not hear that kind of stuff about my alma mater.
Again, I'm behind Buzz. I'm optimistic about the program, and think he is a great recruiter, a surprisingly good game coach, and seems to be at worst too brutally honest for his own good (which I can respect). I just hope he learns from this incident and we don't have to explain away another questionable recruiting scenario next year.
Quote from: Ners on July 02, 2010, 11:17:42 PM
Great - but when your point gets rebutted, and by several posters - let it go..don't belabor the point. UNO, Maymon and Roseboro have no merit for mention in this Newbill situation. When you grasp for straws like bringing up UNO/Maymon/Roseboro - it makes you come across as having an agenda. I've refrained from commenting on all of your other posts that all harp on Buzz - but enough is enough. Don't automatically assume guilt before innoncence. I don't like how this Newbill thing transpired..but we have some posters asking if this is a fireable offense...you belaboring the point...give our coach a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. He's assembled probably the most talented team EVER in MU basketball history...and this is the type of thanks he gets or sh$t he gets?? Let it go..hopefully a situation like Newbill doesn't happen again..and Buzz will learn from it..though I have little doubt he communicated the message of prep school being a possibility for Newbill from square 1 in the recruitment and LOI stage.
I keep bringing it up because you and many others are not getting the point. How exactly has my point been rebutted? I only ask people to concede that there are 4 parties that PERCEIVE to have been wronged by Buzz. You choose to ignore this because you don't think those 4 parties' points of view are valid.
I am arguing that the percepiton these incidents create have potential negative effects. I am in no way saying that Newbill, Roseboro's coach, Tim Maymon, or UNO fans / admin are right and Buzz is wrong. You seem to rush to that conclusion because apparently you need things to be black and white.
Is it really that horrible and offensive to suggest that Buzz and MU might want to make sure that they effectively communicating or that maybe they want to take a hard look at whether offering guys like Roseboro, Newbill, and Maymon is worth the potential negative results?
You can dismiss the opinions of the three parties I listed all you want but you have to know that there are a lot of people who are going to use them as examples of MU pushing the ethical envelope. Look at this board as it relates to UW. We love to cite any Badger indiscretion as proof that they run an ethically questionable program. Whether its Ron Dayne's wonderlic or suspending star players for a few practices, most of what we bring up are not violations but they ammo that allows us to cast UW in a negative light. I don't want MU to make a habit of putting ourselves into situations that create the perception of a program that habitually pushes the ethics envelope.
Is it time to fire Buzz? NO!!!
Does Buzz disgust me? NO!!!
Do I think Buzz is "chicken$hit" (quote from the board)? NO!!!
Do I want MU to try to prevent situations that could cause people to question their ethics? YES!!!
Now as to your overall attitude and tone:
Get over yourself and grow up. I find it more than laughable that someone who has a history of personal attacks against other Scoopers would ask for me to be banned.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 03, 2010, 01:39:30 AM
Maybe not to us, but they certainly do to the perception that is built up in other fanbases. It's easy to say we don't care what Bucky, or DePaul, or WVU think of us, but when I discuss basketball with fans of those teams, I want to do so in a way that lets me hold my head high because Marquette represents a high standard.
so railroading someone for posting in the spirit of the thread and commenting on it is more than a bit out of line.
But it's not that I don't care at all. I care that you can logically put together a line of questionable situations that has people on other boards calling our coach, the man who stands on the front line as the single most recognizable spokesman for our university, a "slime ball", a "cold-hearted mother <expletive>", a "tool", "totally full of <expletive>". Those are just a few from the links Chicos put up earlier. Regardless what you think of him or the people posting them, the comments are out there, and I'd prefer to not hear that kind of stuff about my alma mater.
I railroaded someone because he's beat and belabored this point beyond reason..and several Scoopers pointed out the flaws in his logic. Also, the higher someone rises in life, the more successful they become, the more trash that is going to get talked about them...see: Huggins, Calipari, Pitono,Boheim, Coach K..people hate on people who become big time winners and start to dominate their field (in this case basketball). Considering we are looking at probably the most talented MU roster ever in 2011-2012..it stands to reason other schools are going to try to hate on Buzz and MU. Now, once one of these recruits gets into all kinds of trouble, skps classes, embarrasses the university publically..let's give Buzz a pass. He runs a tight ship program, and I don't think we'll have to see too much off the court behavioral issues from either him personally, or his players.
I've said I don't like how the Newbill deal alledgedly went down, and I do hope Buzz doesn't do something like this again, but ENOUGH with all of the crucification of his character over this. I think Buzz got burned, and his verbal deal with the Newbills blew up..
Quote from: Ners on July 03, 2010, 09:39:57 AM
I've said I don't like how the Newbill deal alledgedly went down, and I do hope Buzz doesn't do something like this again, but ENOUGH with all of the crucification of his character over this.
I agree. People shouldn't crucify Buzz's character over this and I never have.
Of course in your world of absolutes, maybe suggesting that someone isn't communicating effectively enough or made one or two errors in judgement is character crucifiction.
Quote from: MUSF on July 03, 2010, 09:57:06 AM
I agree. People shouldn't crucify Buzz's character over this and I never have.
Of course in your world of absolutes, maybe suggesting that someone isn't communicating effectively enough or made one or two errors in judgement is character crucifiction.
Once again you belabor the "communicating effectively" enough point. Perhaps in your world of jumping to conclusions - you shouldn't form opinions on how things are "communicated" when you weren't present at the actual communication event.
And are you really not trying to indict Buzz's character? If I click on your post history and read..oh..maybe your last 35 posts..all of them call into question/chip away at his credibilty/character...and that type of "communication" helps me get to my world of absolutes regarding your motives/intentions here.
Quote from: Ners on July 03, 2010, 10:04:50 AM
If I click on your post history and read..oh..maybe your last 35 posts..all of them call into question/chip away at his credibilty/character...and that type of "communication" helps me get to my world of absolutes regarding your motives/intentions here.
Be my guest.
Make sure you include my awesome posts in the nickname thread, and my posts going after 3Mer for claiming Buzz doesn't live up to Jesuit values, or my posts about how excited I am to see this team and Vander Blue on the court.
Of course you will find the post where I suggest you would like to publicly fellate Buzz. Sorry everybody that may have been a little much. :)
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 03, 2010, 01:39:30 AM
Maybe not to us, but they certainly do to the perception that is built up in other fanbases. It's easy to say we don't care what Bucky, or DePaul, or WVU think of us, but when I discuss basketball with fans of those teams, I want to do so in a way that lets me hold my head high because Marquette represents a high standard.
Well said and that's all most people are saying. Do the right thing, don't put yourself in this situation.
If you look at the Dawson recruitment, we have other fanbases insinuating we're using $$ to influence his decision. Never in my wildest dreams did I think MU would be put in that light, but it's starting to be portrayed that way on some of the Purdue and Indiana boards. Whether it's just a few nutjobs or not, it's something I'd rather MU not get dragged through.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 03, 2010, 12:08:02 PM
Well said and that's all most people are saying. Do the right thing, don't put yourself in this situation.
If you look at the Dawson recruitment, we have other fanbases insinuating we're using $$ to influence his decision. Never in my wildest dreams did I think MU would be put in that light, but it's starting to be portrayed that way on some of the Purdue and Indiana boards. Whether it's just a few nutjobs or not, it's something I'd rather MU not get dragged through.
Wait ... what? How can Buzz Williams/Marquette possibly control what fans on Internet sites - who you're willing to admit might be nutjobs - are saying about Buzz Williams/Marquette, much less be accountable for it? Should MU just not bother recruiting with the big boys because any success therein might lead to some anonymous guy on a message board saying something negative?
Of all the weird statements of the past few days, this is among the weirdest. Apparently it's not enough for Marquette to stay within the rules. They must also make sure that no person in all of Cyberspace ever insinuates that they're not staying withing the rules.
You must have been in a real tizzy when the NCAA investigated Tom Crean for a violation during his first month on the job at Marquette. Never in your wildest dreams did you think MU would be put in that light.
By the way, I heard from a good source that Bo Ryan has paid off numerous high school and AAU coaches across the Midwest for special access to players. Bo Ryan clearly is doing something wrong. Even if he's not. Someone on the Internet insinuated it.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 03, 2010, 12:27:46 PM
Wait ... what? How can Buzz Williams/Marquette possibly control what fans on Internet sites - who you're willing to admit might be nutjobs - are saying about Buzz Williams/Marquette, much less be accountable for it? Should MU just not bother recruiting with the big boys because any success therein might lead to some anonymous guy on a message board saying something negative?
Of all the weird statements of the past few days, this is among the weirdest. Apparently it's not enough for Marquette to stay within the rules. They must also make sure that no person in all of Cyberspace ever insinuates that they're not staying withing the rules.
You must have been in a real tizzy when the NCAA investigated Tom Crean for a violation during his first month on the job at Marquette. Never in your wildest dreams did you think MU would be put in that light.
By the way, I heard from a good source that Bo Ryan has paid off numerous high school and AAU coaches across the Midwest for special access to players. Bo Ryan clearly is doing something wrong. Even if he's not. Someone on the Internet insinuated it.
BRAVO...success breeds contempt. get used to it and get oer it.
Quote from: Ners on July 03, 2010, 09:39:57 AM
I've said I don't like how the Newbill deal alledgedly went down, and I do hope Buzz doesn't do something like this again, but ENOUGH with all of the crucification of his character over this. I think Buzz got burned, and his verbal deal with the Newbills blew up..
It seems to me that there's generally 4 different groups here.
1) People who think MU/Buzz did something wrong
2) People who think MU/Buzz used poor judgment and shouldn't do it again and want to call attention to it to that end
3) People who think MU/Buzz used poor judgment and shouldn't do it again, but want to defend Buzz from too much criticism
4) People who think MU/Buzz did nothing wrong
I think groups 1-3 comprise 80% or more of the population here, as the majority clearly believes that poor judgment was used no matter what they are posting about. I'm satisfied with that; I don't want anything more from Buzz than to not do it again. I really don't think we (groups 1-3) need to argue anymore.
Quote from: TJ on July 03, 2010, 02:55:20 PM
It seems to me that there's generally 4 different groups here.
You're completely wrong.
You miss the point Pakuni. Wisconsin runs a clean program and doesn't put themselves in these positions. Your strawman doesn't even raise an eyebrow.
But when you start running off players and doing anything and everything to win, well all of a sudden people start throwing these things around and people do raise an eyebrow because you've invited it on yourself.
I don't know if you've followed the Crean rant on Twitter the last few days. A few college basketball blogs have speculated who Crean is so pissed off at (it's obviously another coach or school).
Most people think it's Thad Matta. But there are a number of folks that think it's Buzz, including some of the radio sports guys up in Indianapolis. Who knows, but as I stated the other day, I just assume we avoid that kind of mud slinging. You don't see Vanderbilt, Stanford, etc being thrown into these kinds of discussions because they aren't kicking kids to the curb, yet still have successful basketball programs. When we start to do the things we did this week, it gives the "APPEARANCE" of something bad, whether it's by the rules or not.
http://kentsterling.com/2010/07/01/iu-hoops-tom-crean-uses-twitter-to-fire-a-shot-across-someones-bow/
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=6083000&p=2
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=169&f=2616&t=6088059&p=2
http://buckyville.yuku.com/topic/31845/t/Jamil-Wilson-to-transfer.html?page=3
http://buckyville.yuku.com/topic/31937/t/Speaking-of-Crean.html
Quote from: Jay Bee on July 04, 2010, 01:11:01 AM
You miss everything, pal.
Go to bed Bauer, it's late and you've been drinking again.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 04, 2010, 01:07:36 AM
You miss the point Pakuni. Wisconsin runs a clean program and doesn't put themselves in these positions. Your strawman doesn't even raise an eyebrow.
Strawman? What strawman?
Just so I'm clear, is the Wisconsin you now say runs a clean program the same or different Wisconsin that a few days ago you posted about having the third most major NCAA violations in the country?
QuoteBut when you start running off players and doing anything and everything to win, well all of a sudden people start throwing these things around and people do raise an eyebrow because you've invited it on yourself.
When you "start" running off players? So running off players just "started" with Buzz Williams?
You're quite the revisionist.
I may be mistaken, but when Buzz Williams' predecessor ran off players, I don't recall you ever linking us to Wisconsin message boards as some sort of proof of the vast harm Buzz Williams' predecessor was doing to Marquette's reputation. In fact, I remember you going to those message boards and vociferously defending Buzz Williams' predecessor. So much so, that you were banned, repeatedly, from those sites.
Some of these links you include below are laughable and I'd be embarrassed of myself if I tried to pass it off as proof of anything.
The Illinois site has a five-page thread on the Crean-Matta dispute. Five pages with dozens of posts. One of them - ONE - mentions anything about Buzz Williams. And here's exactly what it says:
"Matta and Crean don't get along. But some of the radio guys have been speculating he could also be talking about Buzz Williams or Josh Pastner"Some radio guys are
"speculating" that Crean
"could" also be talking about Buzz Williams
"or" Josh Pastner.
I'll repeat .... somebody on sports talk radio - that paragon of journalistic accuracy and integrity - is saying Tom Crean could be talking about Thad Matta. Or he could be talking about Josh Pastner. Or he could be talking about Buzz Williams. But they don't really know, cause it's all just speculation.
Lord have mercy! Marquette's reputation is in tatters.
The remainder of the thread - all five pages - is dedicated to Illinois fans claiming Thad Matta is or could be a cheater.
If this post drives you to despair regarding Marquette, imagine what it's doing to loyal Buckeye fans. Mass hari kari this morning at the horseshoe?
I mean, someone on a rival team's message says their coach might be skirting the rules. Never in their wildest dreams could they imagine such a thing.
The Sterling link likewise is a joke. The author runs through all the possible people Crean could be talking about. He never even mentions Buzz Williams' name. Instead, he concludes that it's Thad Matta. Even says Matta has a reputation for skirting the rules.
But
one commenter at the bottom of the story theorizes that it's Buzz Williams. And once again, I guess, this sends you into mourning about the downfall of Marquette's reputation.
Are you for real? That has you all atwitter?
I'm glad that when he was at Marquette nobody on a message board ever accused Buzz Williams' predecessor of doing anything wrong.
Oh wait ... they did. Plenty. And you were first in line to defend. Now, it seems, you're first in line to commiserate.
Which I'm sure has nothing to do with your sad and neverending quest to justify your opposition to Buzz Williams' hiring.
By the way, what's your take on the Bawa Muniru situation?
Weird that a kid would decide to transfer in late June. I mean, most kids make that decision months earlier, right? Apparently it took him three+ months to realize he didn't get a lot of playing time last season. And, man, as we know from the DJ Newbill situation, it's almost impossible for a kid to hook on with another school this late in the year.
I presume you are deeply saddened and dismayed about what has been done to that young man and the reputation of IU. Oh, and it was on oversigning.com, so surely you feel crestfallen about these latest developments. My deepest condolences.
I'll be sure to go check the Indiana message boards to read your thoughts on it.
Quote from: Jay Bee on July 04, 2010, 12:52:43 AM
You're completely wrong.
Then tell us, Jay Bee, what do you think? I mean aside from calling everyone names and being obnoxious. What's this 5th position you subscribe to?
Quote from: Pakuni on July 04, 2010, 09:05:03 AM
Strawman? What strawman?
Just so I'm clear, is the Wisconsin you now say runs a clean program the same or different Wisconsin that a few days ago you posted about having the third most major NCAA violations in the country?
On the basketball side....yes.
There hasn't been a sense of impropriety since Stu Jackson left their basketball program.
And you're correct, poor choice of words on my part. We started running off players years ago, but I don't recall us doing it before they even enrolled in the Fall semester which we've done twice now. I view them differently, completely different. In one case you actually give the kid a chance to prove himself and he has options with a transfer. In the other case, the kid is left screwed in the middle of the Summer when there are no scholarships open anywhere in the country that are worth a damn.
So I should have said, "when you start running off players after they sign their NLI and before they start Fall classes..."
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 04, 2010, 11:45:21 AM
On the basketball side....yes.
There hasn't been a sense of impropriety since Stu Jackson left their basketball program.
And you're correct, poor choice of words on my part. We started running off players years ago, but I don't recall us doing it before they even enrolled in the Fall semester which we've done twice now. I view them differently, completely different. In one case you actually give the kid a chance to prove himself and he has options with a transfer. In the other case, the kid is left screwed in the middle of the Summer when there are no scholarships open anywhere in the country that are worth a damn.
So I should have said, "when you start running off players after they sign their NLI and before they start Fall classes..."
I think the only difference between running players off now under Buzz and running players off under Crean is the way the message is managed. Crean was a PR machine and covered his bases to get out in front of these types of situations and keep control of MU's image. Was it slimy, slick, used car salesmanish? Probably, but it worked. Some think Crean's PR chops were a negative attribute but I see it as a necessary evil in the grey world of major college athletics.
P.S. Sorry for bringing up Crean but I think it is germane to the discussion.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 04, 2010, 11:45:21 AM
On the basketball side....yes.
There hasn't been a sense of impropriety since Stu Jackson left their basketball program.
And you're correct, poor choice of words on my part. We started running off players years ago, but I don't recall us doing it before they even enrolled in the Fall semester which we've done twice now. I view them differently, completely different. In one case you actually give the kid a chance to prove himself and he has options with a transfer. In the other case, the kid is left screwed in the middle of the Summer when there are no scholarships open anywhere in the country that are worth a damn.
So I should have said, "when you start running off players after they sign their NLI and before they start Fall classes..."
There are no scholarships anywhere in the country worth a damn?
Does this mean Kevin Noreen's scholie to WVU, and offers from Indiana, Virginia, Arkansas and Providence, among others, weren't worth a damn?
Are you saying the multiple A-10 offers Roseboro got upon leaving MU weren't worth a damn (especially for a kid of his abilities)?
Are you saying the offers that are rolling in to Newbill (according to Brad Forster, who has all the facts) aren't worth a damn?
Sorry, but the facts dispute that statement.
As for "when you start running off players after they sign their NLI and before they start Fall classes," that sounds an awful lot like tailoring your outrage just to fit a specific set of cimrcumstances. Running off players is fine, just don't do it after they sign their NLI and before they start Fall classes and unless you can claim they didn't qualify for your academic standards even though kids with lesser academic standing did qualify for your academic standards.
I see.
But if you honestly think about it, is a kid who got the Brett Roseboro treatment better or worse off than a kid who gets run off in the manner you find more palatable?
Let's look at his situation. He got sent off before enrolling his freshman year, allowing him to transfer immediately to another program better suited to his skills, avoid any kind of NCAA transfer penalty and play right away as a freshman.
Now, let's compare that to a kid like Brandon Bell.
Bell, like Roseboro, gets to campus and it soon becomes apparent that he's not a high major college basketball player. He nonethless sticks around to "prove" himself, if that's what you call earning less than 5 minutes per game, most of it in garbage time, and going many games without even seeing the court except dressed in warmups. After an essentially wasted freshman year, Bell transfers to Detroit, where he's forced to sit out
another year under NCAA transfer rules.
Now ask yourself, who got the more raw deal? The kid who got to hook on with another program and play right away after leaving Marquette during the summer, or the kid who wasted the first two years of his college career?
If you're being honest, you'll say it's the latter.
Quote from: Pakuni on July 04, 2010, 12:50:25 PM
There are no scholarships anywhere in the country worth a damn?
Does this mean Kevin Noreen's scholie to WVU, and offers from Indiana, Virginia, Arkansas and Providence, among others, weren't worth a damn?
Are you saying the multiple A-10 offers Roseboro got upon leaving MU weren't worth a damn (especially for a kid of his abilities)?
Are you saying the offers that are rolling in to Newbill (according to Brad Forster, who has all the facts) aren't worth a damn?
Sorry, but the facts dispute that statement.
As for "when you start running off players after they sign their NLI and before they start Fall classes," that sounds an awful lot like tailoring your outrage just to fit a specific set of cimrcumstances. Running off players is fine, just don't do it after they sign their NLI and before they start Fall classes and unless you can claim they didn't qualify for your academic standards even though kids with lesser academic standing did qualify for your academic standards.
I see.
But if you honestly think about it, is a kid who got the Brett Roseboro treatment better or worse off than a kid who gets run off in the manner you find more palatable?
Let's look at his situation. He got sent off before enrolling his freshman year, allowing him to transfer immediately to another program better suited to his skills, avoid any kind of NCAA transfer penalty and play right away as a freshman.
Now, let's compare that to a kid like Brandon Bell.
Bell, like Roseboro, gets to campus and it soon becomes apparent that he's not a high major college basketball player. He nonethless sticks around to "prove" himself, if that's what you call earning less than 5 minutes per game, most of it in garbage time, and going many games without even seeing the court except dressed in warmups. After an essentially wasted freshman year, Bell transfers to Detroit, where he's forced to sit out another year under NCAA transfer rules.
Now ask yourself, who got the more raw deal? The kid who got to hook on with another program and play right away after leaving Marquette during the summer, or the kid who wasted the first two years of his college career?
If you're being honest, you'll say it's the latter.
+1
The problem I have with the situation isn't that Newbill got screwed. He didn't. I'm sure he would have liked things to work out differently but he will still be able to get an education for playing bball somewhere. He will also probably end up at a school where he will contribute more as a player than he likely would have at MU.
The only difference I see between Crean and Buzz in these situations is how the message is managed. Crean was calculating and always seemed to mitigate potential negative backlash well. With Saunders it was academic reasons, with others it was personal issues. Some people on this board and from outside the MU community called B.S., and maybe rightfully so, but overall it actually worked pretty well. Crean didn't break the rules and the reasons he provided for running players off were valid, even if they may not have been 100% true.