MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: DegenerateDish on June 30, 2010, 09:19:21 PM
-
I've been reading through these threads, went to the Wisco board, trying to figure out what all the fuss is about. There's two accounts to the story, truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
I'm a Marquette basketball fan, at the end of the day (without cheating to do it) I want Marquette to be able to put the best possible basketball product out there. Marquette basketball is better today with Jamil Wilson, than it was yesterday with Newbill. That works for me. Marquette basketball is on it's way to having one of the deepest rosters I can remember, even better if Wilson can convince the NCAA to allow him to play this year.
Did Newbill get a raw deal? Maybe, maybe not. If he has talent and can qualify academically, someone will take him. He had a LOI, but never filled out the proper paperwork to enroll. If MU used that to their advantage to get better as a team, I have no problem with it. At the end of the day it's Buzz Williams job to win basketball games, not make everyone happy.
Coaches leave programs hanging all the time (Tom...cough cough...Crean), players leave schools all the time to find a better opportunity (Blankson anyone?). MU didn't violate any rules today, Crean didn't violate any rules when he left MU, nor did Blankson. This is college basketball, not the boy scouts.
I got a kick out of reading the holier than thou Wisconsin board regarding this situation with MU. It'll be interesting to see next season when a Blue/Wilson MU team head to the Kohl Center and beat up the Badgers. I look forward to the "at least Bo keeps his word" threads over there. As if that is some sort of consolation prize for losing to a MU team made up of prominent in state players.
Good luck to Newbill. His minutes at MU probably would not have been what he would have liked. If that was going to be the case, and this gives him an opportunity to succeed elsewhere, I'd wish him the best of luck.
-
exactly, some people got mad at me when i said i hoped the player to leave for gardner would be mbao. I feel bad for guys like mbao and gardner, but just like you I want the best team possible.
Wilson whether or not he gets lucky and is allowed to play this year will help us greatly for 2011 when we should have a legit team that noone will want to play and a real tourney threat.
Thats what i want. A sweet 16 and more. Wilson gives us that better chance
We have enough guards.
-
IN all honesty, I was giving Buzz the benefit of the doubt. And I still do.... However, I was reading through some of the garbage on the jsonline site and came across this:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Did-Marquette-put-winning-before-ethics-by-cutti?urn=ncaab,252690&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter"
Well, the head coach's last name rang a bell with me and sure enough...HC Larry Waiters is the uncle of standout recruit, Dion Waiters (#27 overall on Scout and incoming freshman at Syracuse). Larry is an AAU coach in South Philly and apparently pulls some weight. So, what's the over-under on how many years it takes before MU lands a Philly recruit? Man, this is not good. Internally, things may be settled...but we cant control how people (future recruits, especially) think about this program at this point. Its just damage control now ---no matter what the true facts are.
I confirmed on my own that Dion Waiters is, in fact, the 27th ranked player and is also from Philadelphia. It's true that this is now a matter of perception....not internally, but externally.
-
The kid signed a letter of intent correct? So if he wanted to stick it to Buzz he could hold Buzz to that contract and show up at MU next year?
I'll take IWB's word for what happened, and I sincerely hope that's the truth. Both he and Buzz have a lot to lose if they're proven to be full of crap. But to say that what Buzz did was acceptable under any circumstances or in any situation is BS. I'd like to see those stating that sign a year long contract and then have their boss call and say they need to resign and not collect their salary for the year.
-
So, what's the over-under on how many years it takes before MU lands a Philly recruit? Man, this is not good.
I know, if that Philadelphia pipeline we have been milking all these years dries up, man, we are screwed.
-
IN all honesty, I was giving Buzz the benefit of the doubt. And I still do.... However, I was reading through some of the garbage on the jsonline site and came across this:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Did-Marquette-put-winning-before-ethics-by-cutti?urn=ncaab,252690&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter"
Well, the head coach's last name rang a bell with me and sure enough...HC Larry Waiters is the uncle of standout recruit, Dion Waiters (#27 overall on Scout and incoming freshman at Syracuse). Larry is an AAU coach in South Philly and apparently pulls some weight. So, what's the over-under on how many years it takes before MU lands a Philly recruit? Man, this is not good. Internally, things may be settled...but we cant control how people (future recruits, especially) think about this program at this point. Its just damage control now ---no matter what the true facts are.
No matter how this thing went down, I'm sure Buzz weighed the pro's and con's of this move prior to making it and he obviously felt it was worth the damage it could do to future recruits in Philly. If Buzz is as honest and ethical as he says he's probably not worrying about it anyhow.
-
I know, if that Philadelphia pipeline we have been milking all these years dries up, man, we are screwed.
Does Gene Banks have any eligibility remaining?
-
Until I hear Buzz Williams committed an NCAA violation/infraction, I can't decipher what rules he broke today. If Jamil Wilson next season or in 2011/2012 hits a 15 foot game winner to beat Notre Dame in South Bend, are people going to be saying "I enjoyed the game, but would rather have Newbill here".
Hell no.
We live in a "what have you done for me lately" world. I guarantee the first big game Wilson has, we'll see threads stating "Thank you Buzz for getting Wilson here!".
And where exactly is this recruiting pipeline from Philly??? We recruited two 2 star level recruits from the area. Hardly going to make or break things.
-
Have to admit, I've become more than a bit cynical about college athletics the past few years. I'm not slamming MU, DJ, Wilson, or anyone else. This episode seems to be normal for big-time college athletics. I sincerely hope it works out for all parties, but cannot get too upset.
I believe the word I am looking for is "meh."
-
I think some of you are missing the point. How many kids from Philly did we recruit as a member of CUSA. One of the HUGE benefits of being a member of the BE is that it opened recruiting channels to the biggest hotbeds of talent in America (Philly included). We're new to this game and its a bit early to burn bridges, IMHO. Id rather have one more option than one less option.
-
Whatever the mess that was caused by this (and Roseboro), Philly will be ours.
Because WINNING heals EVERYTHING.
-
Buzz has proved to be honest. You will never have to guess what he is thinking. Recruits will know that.
-
Until I hear Buzz Williams committed an NCAA violation/infraction, I can't decipher what rules he broke today. If Jamil Wilson next season or in 2011/2012 hits a 15 foot game winner to beat Notre Dame in South Bend, are people going to be saying "I enjoyed the game, but would rather have Newbill here".
Hell no.
You sound like a Kentucky fan, although many of them aren't too thrilled with trying to win while pulling crap either. Like I said, I'm taking IWB's words as true which would make Buzz seem ethical in the matter, but I'm not interested in writing this crap off to a "that's just the way it is" excuse. If it turns out Buzz screwed this kid over, and Wilson hits a game winner, I'm willing to bet someone will mention DJ within 10 minutes on this board.
-
Buzz has proved to be honest. You will never have to guess what he is thinking. Recruits will know that.
Agreed. I don't care what city a kid is from, if he's interested in MU because of what they have to offer, including the Head Coach, the Great DJ Newbill incident of 2010 is not going to keep him away.
-
The kid signed a letter of intent correct? So if he wanted to stick it to Buzz he could hold Buzz to that contract and show up at MU next year?
Not if he's not officially admitted.
-
He may not have applied because they really had a wait and see approach to the recruitment. He did not know if he was going to Marquette or prep school and just didn't apply yet.
It sounds like Buzz was nothing but upfront with Newbill.
It'd be like if you asked the hottest girl to the dance and she said she would go with you unless a football player asks. You say yes because it is a chance to go to the dance with the hottest girl. The football player asks the hottest girl and you are crushed because it was your chance. In the end, you knew this was possible the whole time. You can still be disappointed.
I honestly hope that the prep route and to MU in one year is an option for DJ.
-
I feel the same as most here. As long as we did not have any violations, get it done Buzz.
-
It sounds like Buzz was nothing but upfront with Newbill.
Well, only if the only account that you believe is MU's via IWB.
Life is shades of gray. This is no different.
-
You sound like a Kentucky fan, although many of them aren't too thrilled with trying to win while pulling crap either. Like I said, I'm taking IWB's words as true which would make Buzz seem ethical in the matter, but I'm not interested in writing this crap off to a "that's just the way it is" excuse. If it turns out Buzz screwed this kid over, and Wilson hits a game winner, I'm willing to bet someone will mention DJ within 10 minutes on this board.
I sound like a fan of a basketball team I care about. Last I checked Coach Cal has had to deal with the NCAA before, I don't recall Buzz Williams having any violations on his record.
If Buzz did not violate any rules, or cheat in any way, and Wilson has a great career at MU, then I would suspect very few will bring up Newbill. He's not wearing an MU uniform, so move on.
-
I think some of you are missing the point. How many kids from Philly did we recruit as a member of CUSA. One of the HUGE benefits of being a member of the BE is that it opened recruiting channels to the biggest hotbeds of talent in America (Philly included). We're new to this game and its a bit early to burn bridges, IMHO. Id rather have one more option than one less option.
Did "we" recruit - meaning your team - Syracuse? I don't have the data on that - why don't you tell us how many Philly kids the Orange have recruited in the past 2 years? Also, once Buzz allows a dude back on the MU team that punches his girlfriend - see Jim Boeheim and Eric Devendouche - at that point I will then begin to concern myself with Buzz's ethics and his perception.
-
Until I hear Buzz Williams committed an NCAA violation/infraction, I can't decipher what rules he broke today.
He broke the most important one...THE GOLDEN RULE.
Treat others and you would like to be treated
But you're right, he hasn't committed any NCAA violation. For that matter, neither has John Calipari.
I thought we were supposed to be above all this. Look his AAU coach today says it plain as day, we screwed the kid over. He was committed to us and us to him....until a prettier girl came along and we dumped him. You guys can spin this until the cows come home, but that's a crappy way to do business.
There will be additional comments later this week from several sources. It's a shame that MU is stiffing this kid, even worse that we have folks thinking it's ok. I didn't realize we turned into one of those schools.
"A Marquette spokesman confirmed Wednesday that Newbill had qualified academically and the coaching staff simply decided the program needed Wilson more than him."
-
He broke the most important one...THE GOLDEN RULE.
Treat others and you would like to be treated
Wait, wait, wait .... the guy who defends Tom Crean through thick and thin is ripping Buzz for violating THE GOLDEN RULE?
Apparently TC decided that his players and bosses wanted to learn he was bailing on them through ESPN.
Classic.
I don't mean to turn this into a Buzz vs TC thread (though I'm afraid I might have already), but here's yet another sterling example of inconsistency from our foremost TC defender.
thought we were supposed to be above all this. Look his AAU coach today says it plain as day, we screwed the kid over.
Well then, it's settled. AAU coaches are a paragon for truthiness. And no doubt he knows the entire story. Him being an AAU coach, and all.
He was committed to us and us to him....until a prettier girl came along and we dumped him. You guys can spin this until the cows come home, but that's a crappy way to do business.
By all accounts this is true, and it's a bad way of doing business. What's not so clear - and what will determine whether its dishonest or just bad - is whether DJ was aware he could/would be dumped if a prettier girl came along. If so - and there's some evidence to suggest he was - then it's unfortunate, but he rolled the dice and came up craps. If not, then this is bad form by Buzz.
I didn't realize we turned into one of those schools.
One of what schools?
The kind of school that dumps players in late August because it's suddenly determined their grades weren't in order? Because, you know, there's no way his grades could have been known before then.
I'm getting old and losing my memory, so maybe I missed it, but I don't recall you being quite so morally outraged when that happened to Damian Saunders.
Weird, huh?
-
"A Marquette spokesman confirmed Wednesday that Newbill had qualified academically and the coaching staff simply decided the program needed Wilson more than him."
If you believe that someone at MU said that verbatim, on the record, I have some swampland to sell you.
If true, that spokesman should be fired immediately.
-
If it does come out that Buzz did basically just cast Newbill aside for Wilson, the Wilson kid better end up being significantly better than Newbill ends up becoming elsewhere to make up for the amount of negative publicity the issue will bring on Buzz.
Not only that, Buzz is always talking about how wins and losses are second on his list to players thinking he helped make them better young men. That comes of more hollow to me if Buzz did basically toss aside DJ for a more skilled recruit.
-
Chico, I agree with you to a certain degree. I know this board are loaded with people saying we are DEEEP. And there were people out there saying Crean left "the cupboard full". I still don't think this team is DEEP or stacked or whatever you want to call it. We have two guys who have proven that they can play night in and night out; DJO and Jimmy. We still need players. Buzz has a job to do in an industry where you don't get many mulligans and excuses aren't accepted. As long as the guy isn't breaking rules, let the guy do his job. Guess what, if we were able to get Barnes or some other stud in the program, someone else would get booted too.
And honestly, this comes with the territory. Buzz has landed some home run recruits. Why? Because does exactly what he says he does. He says he is ALWAYS recruiting. And now, it should be even more clear.... THE MAN IS ALWAYS RECRUITING. I know this situation looks bad but situation is simple. If you have a quality player willing to come in, do you take him and pass on another? Of course you take the player, because you will help the program and the player will help you do a better job. This whole thing has not changed my opinion of Buzz.
-
If you believe that someone at MU said that verbatim, on the record, I have some swampland to sell you.
If true, that spokesman should be fired immediately.
You were correct to doubt that statement was uttered by a MU spokesman. In fact, the piece's author has "updated" his story with the following:
(Update: I removed a portion of what I had previously attributed to the Marquette spokesman because he did not confirm that the reason the program released Newbill was because it needed Wilson more than him)
-
You were correct to doubt that statement was uttered by a MU spokesman. In fact, the piece's author has "updated" his story with the following:
(Update: I removed a portion of what I had previously attributed to the Marquette spokesman because he did not confirm that the reason the program released Newbill was because it needed Wilson more than him)
But...that was fact! Surely the writer was up for a Pulitzer before that "misinterpretation"! The way I see it, the redacted statement applies: if Wilson (or anyone else) doesn't become available, Newbill is on campus...maybe only for a year, maybe longer. Was Newbill made fully aware that we have other needs and he could become cast aside prior to enrolling? That's where each side has a different opinion on the matter. I won't commit to one or the other, but I'll lean toward the IWB side of things and not the "I was dismissed because the principal was jealous of my success" side of things.
-
He broke the most important one...THE GOLDEN RULE.
Treat others and you would like to be treated
But you're right, he hasn't committed any NCAA violation. For that matter, neither has John Calipari.
I thought we were supposed to be above all this. Look his AAU coach today says it plain as day, we screwed the kid over. He was committed to us and us to him....until a prettier girl came along and we dumped him. You guys can spin this until the cows come home, but that's a crappy way to do business.
There will be additional comments later this week from several sources. It's a shame that MU is stiffing this kid, even worse that we have folks thinking it's ok. I didn't realize we turned into one of those schools.
"A Marquette spokesman confirmed Wednesday that Newbill had qualified academically and the coaching staff simply decided the program needed Wilson more than him."
The same intensity. ;D Are you going to retract that part of your response? ;D
Teams used to stash kids at prep school all of the time. Purdue was known for doing this...Brad Miller comes to mind
-
Chico's you're clearly calling IWB a liar, and saying his story is false?
-
No, Chicos is (correctly) pointing out that IWB's story is Marquette's version of the events.
-
You were correct to doubt that statement was uttered by a MU spokesman. In fact, the piece's author has "updated" his story with the following:
(Update: I removed a portion of what I had previously attributed to the Marquette spokesman because he did not confirm that the reason the program released Newbill was because it needed Wilson more than him)
---
I was going to say that any spokesperson who would have uttered something as outrageous as this should NOT be a spokesperson for MU.
-
He broke the most important one...THE GOLDEN RULE.
Treat others and you would like to be treated
But you're right, he hasn't committed any NCAA violation. For that matter, neither has John Calipari.
I thought we were supposed to be above all this. Look his AAU coach today says it plain as day, we screwed the kid over. He was committed to us and us to him....until a prettier girl came along and we dumped him. You guys can spin this until the cows come home, but that's a crappy way to do business.
There will be additional comments later this week from several sources. It's a shame that MU is stiffing this kid, even worse that we have folks thinking it's ok. I didn't realize we turned into one of those schools.
"A Marquette spokesman confirmed Wednesday that Newbill had qualified academically and the coaching staff simply decided the program needed Wilson more than him."
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Memphis (under John Calipari) had to vacate their 38 win, 2008 Final 4/National Titel game appearance, due to infractions done under Cal's watch, no?
Buzz and MU don't have the NCAA knocking on their door for this. No NCAA rule was violated. Again, this is college basketball, not the boy scouts. Buzz Williams and Marquette basketball are in the business to win games, in a manner compliant within NCAA rules. MU is better today than they were a week ago. If Newbill is good enough, go to prep school for a year, continue to prove yourself, and if Newbill and MU still want to dance together, fine by me.
-
It's part of the game.
Good luck DJ.
Welcome to MU Jamil!
-
"A Marquette spokesman confirmed Wednesday that Newbill had qualified academically and the coaching staff simply decided the program needed Wilson more than him."
---
I was going to say that any spokesperson who would have uttered something as outrageous as this should NOT be a spokesperson for MU.
But, strangely enough, it is roughly equivalent to the version of events that IWB describes. I don't for a second believe that someone at Marquette made the alleged comment verbatim (and the article didn't indicate that it was a direct quote), but IWB's summary of what happened here could fairly be summed up as, "Newbill had qualified academically and the coaching staff simply decided the program needed Wilson more than him." It sure sounds better the way IWB presented it, but it's essentially the same message. In light of the fact that it is not attributed as a direct quote, I'm willing to accept that an MU spokesman uttered words to that effect -- although the later retraction suggests that the earlier comments were probably off the record.
Look, I think everyone here knows that this is exactly what happened -- Marquette did decide that it wanted Wilson more than it wanted Newbill. That's not the issue. The issue is whether Marquette was up front with Newbill about the fact that they thought he might not have a place in next year's class and that they were actively looking to sign another player which could leave Newbill off the team.
-
Does Gene Banks have any eligibility remaining?
That's going to the "way back" machine. Good reference.
-
Look, I think everyone here knows that this is exactly what happened -- Marquette did decide that it wanted Wilson more than it wanted Newbill. That's not the issue. The issue is whether Marquette was up front with Newbill about the fact that they thought he might not have a place in next year's class and that they were actively looking to sign another player which could leave Newbill off the team.
Exactly right, and the thing none of the artificially outraged individuals can seem to articulate, is what Buzz Williams has done during his time here that makes them more apt to take the word of a wannabe coach who was fired because someone was jealous of his success, posting on an internet message board, over MU's actual coach who has been a model representative of Marquette University. Is the fact that his name is not Tom Crean really that offensive to you?
-
Imho, we (MU) should have given Newbill an unconditional release, allowing him to sign with a different BE team.
I think it would have helped Buzz, and MU, save face.
-
Exactly right, and the thing none of the artificially outraged individuals can seem to articulate, is what Buzz Williams has done during his time here that makes them more apt to take the word of a wannabe coach who was fired because someone was jealous of his success, posting on an internet message board, over MU's actual coach who has been a model representative of Marquette University. Is the fact that his name is not Tom Crean really that offensive to you?
ARGHH...this isn't about Tom Crean or Damien Saunders.
This is about Buzz Williams and his *repeated* instances of miscommunication between himself and players during the recruiting process. And its also not just the word of phillycoach, but we have *direct* quotes from Newbill himself on the philly.com article that was recently linked.
Stop being an apologist. We make fun of them when they are Barry Bonds fans, etc. Don't be one now.
-
Imho, we (MU) should have given Newbill an unconditional release, allowing him to sign with a different BE team.
I think it would have helped Buzz, and MU, save face.
It's not the release that's the problem, it's the Big East conference rule that a player can't sign with another team if they signed a NLI with a different conference team. Most conferences have this rule. UW appealed and won to get an exception to the same rule in the Big Ten when they picked up Brust from Iowa and dumped Markolf.
-
This is about Buzz Williams and his *repeated* instances of miscommunication between himself and players during the recruiting process.
What exactly are these *repeated* instances? If you say DJ Newbill, you are doing exactly what I suggested, and taking the word of the wannabe coach, over that of Buzz Williams. Please show me anywhere that DJ Newbill said anything to refute MU's version of things (via IWB).
Roseborro might be one example, but if you look at that situation, it seems to me they were both on the same page when he signed (thought he could play in the BE), and after he left (realized he wasn't going to play in the BE).
So where exactly are these repeated instances you speak of?
-
It's not the release that's the problem, it's the Big East conference rule that a player can't sign with another team if they signed a NLI with a different conference team. Most conferences have this rule. UW appealed and won to get an exception to the same rule in the Big Ten when they picked up Brust from Iowa and dumped Markolf.
Agreed. I guess I would be surprised if another BE team is interested, but I'd be willing to bet if MU is allowed any input into an appeal for him to be able to do so, they would probably be supportive.
-
Exactly right, and the thing none of the artificially outraged individuals can seem to articulate, is what Buzz Williams has done during his time here that makes them more apt to take the word of a wannabe coach who was fired because someone was jealous of his success, posting on an internet message board, over MU's actual coach who has been a model representative of Marquette University. Is the fact that his name is not Tom Crean really that offensive to you?
Not sure if those parts are directed at me or not since I don't think that from my perspective this is even remotely related to anything having to do with Tom Crean. But, I'll tell you where I am coming from. I'm not taking PhillyCoach's word about anything. I think he has, to a large extent, been discredited and was not an insider in this process. But, I do note that DJ and his AAU coach also have said that DJ was caught off guard by this development. That suggests one of three things: 1) they are lying; 2) there was a miscommunication between parties and DJ got his hopes up; or 3) DJ got totally screwed over by Buzz.
I'm very, very comfortable that Number 2 is the answer here. As always, the truth lies in the middle. DJ hoped to go to Marquette and believed that at the end of the day he would be there. He's really disappointed that it didn't work out. Buzz told DJ that they were still recruiting and it might not work out, but left the door open a crack which allowed DJ to get his hopes up (even more so as the summer progressed).
I'm not sure I think this is a good recruiting practice. I don't really think it's illegal, unethical or immoral, but I just am not sure it's a good way to do things. I'd love to have five minutes to sit down with Buzz and see if he would do things differently given another chance.
-
What exactly are these *repeated* instances? If you say DJ Newbill, you are doing exactly what I suggested, and taking the word of the wannabe coach, over that of Buzz Williams. Please show me anywhere that DJ Newbill said anything to refute MU's version of things (via IWB).
Roseborro might be one example, but if you look at that situation, it seems to me they were both on the same page when he signed (thought he could play in the BE), and after he left (realized he wasn't going to play in the BE).
So where exactly are these repeated instances you speak of?
Newbill, Roseboro, Maymon. We had direct quote from Maymon about what his role would be with the team immediately after he committed, and those concerns were brought up here at the time. When that role was not fulfilled, the problems started to occur. I am not saying that Tim Maymon isn't primarily to blame, but communication can be an issue.
Newbill hasn't said anything to directly refute IWB's version, but he hasn't asked to. However, if this was properly communicated from the beginning, one would think that he wouldn't be this pissed.
-
Not sure if those parts are directed at me or not since I don't think that from my perspective this is even remotely related to anything having to do with Tom Crean. But, I'll tell you where I am coming from. I'm not taking PhillyCoach's word about anything. I think he has, to a large extent, been discredited and was not an insider in this process. But, I do note that DJ and his AAU coach also have said that DJ was caught off guard by this development. That suggests one of three things: 1) they are lying; 2) there was a miscommunication between parties and DJ got his hopes up; or 3) DJ got totally screwed over by Buzz.
I'm very, very comfortable that Number 2 is the answer here. As always, the truth lies in the middle. DJ hoped to go to Marquette and believed that at the end of the day he would be there. He's really disappointed that it didn't work out. Buzz told DJ that they were still recruiting and it might not work out, but left the door open a crack which allowed DJ to get his hopes up (even more so as the summer progressed).
I'm not sure I think this is a good recruiting practice. I don't really think it's illegal, unethical or immoral, but I just am not sure it's a good way to do things. I'd love to have five minutes to sit down with Buzz and see if he would do things differently given another chance.
I agree with this. And #2 has been a rcurring issue.
-
"Major turnover on Marquette roster."
On espn college basketball page. Anybody have Insider?
-
Not sure if those parts are directed at me or not
Either am I.
I'm not sure I think this is a good recruiting practice. I don't really think it's illegal, unethical or immoral, but I just am not sure it's a good way to do things.
Its funny you say that, because as I was thinking about this last night, I came to the conclusion that this type of thing may just become somewhat of the norm, not just at MU, but across College BB, whre you have an extra scholarship, and some potential high quality recruits to fill it, but with nothing guaranteed, you sign a kid who you know can always fall back to a mid-major school as your back up plan. Again, if that reality/intention is communicated to the player (as I believe it was in this case), I don't see much wrong with it. The player and his family/advisors can decide to sign the LOI or not.
-
I agree with this. And #2 has been a rcurring issue.
What are they, and who's to blame? Is the message inaccurate/dishonest, or is the player choosing to hear what he wants to hear?
-
Imho, we (MU) should have given Newbill an unconditional release, allowing him to sign with a different BE team.
I think it would have helped Buzz, and MU, save face.
That's not an option. It's a Big East rule, not a Marquette rule. Marquette certainly could go to bat for him if he appeals the Big East rule, but first DJ would need a Big East offer.
-
However, if this was properly communicated from the beginning, one would think that he wouldn't be this pissed.
What I'm wondering is whether Newbill is pissed, or whether he's really disappointed. In one of the articles he sounded more disappointed than pissed. Even if IWB's version is 100% gospel truth, I'd expect that he'd be very disappointed -- and honestly, maybe even a little pissed. If IWB's version is way off base, I'd expect him to be very, very pissed.
I hope this comes through in the interview Forster does.
-
The same intensity. ;D Are you going to retract that part of your response? ;D
Looks like the answer to that would be NO!
-
What are they, and who's to blame? Is the message inaccurate/dishonest, or is the player choosing to hear what he wants to hear?
Perhaps some of both. As I said in the other post, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
-
No, Chicos is (correctly) pointing out that IWB's story is Marquette's version of the events.
If that's what you think he's doing I've got some swampland in Florida you might be interested in.
-
What I'm wondering is whether Newbill is pissed, or whether he's really disappointed. In one of the articles he sounded more disappointed than pissed. Even if IWB's version is 100% gospel truth, I'd expect that he'd be very disappointed -- and honestly, maybe even a little pissed. If IWB's version is way off base, I'd expect him to be very, very pissed.
I hope this comes through in the interview Forster does.
We put an offer in on a new home a few weeks ago. We knew it was a solid offer, and we were quite confident we would soon be moving. We also knew there was a competing offer and nothing was certain, but I was already picking out paint colors and planning the move when I heard that ours was rejected. I was immediately pissed at everybody involved....mostly the home buying process, real estate agents, etc. (don't get me started on this...can't we just sit down and arrive at a price so that we both walk away happy?). Then a few days later, reality set in that we ultimatley lost out because I had convinced myself our offer was adequate, and I underestimated the possibility of the alternative, and didn't offer as much as we could have.
Everyone's initial reaction when something doesn't go the way you want it to is to try to blame someone else. What are you gonna do, blame yourself? Once the emotion is removed, reality tends to set in (although I do still think the agent did a crappy job).
-
I'm going to try to lay out the reason I think that its ridiculous to give Buzz a pass on this and then back away. Sorry for the inevitable diatribe, feel free to skip if its too long.
This is not just about breaking NCAA rules. Buzz has always held himself above that, and with good reason. But I have a philosophical problem with using LOIs this way. The LOI is meant to be a commitment between the team and the player. Thats why other teams can no longer contact the player. The reason it isnt against the rules for the team to recruit over a signed player is because there is no way to draw a line between at what point that player can be cut for being a jagoff, not doing what hes supposed to be doing and when he signs. This creates a situation of great disparity in power between the player and the university if there isnt an implied commitment on behalf of the university.
When you recruit over someone who has signed, you lessen the value of your own acceptance of LOIs. To this, someone will sarcastically say "Oh, well we better be scared no one ever signs with us again then!" And of course while this isnt a concern, its also not the point. At a small school like MU with a remarkably upstanding coach like Buzz, we like to think that welcoming signed players to the small community is sort of a rite of passage, and that at MU, the LOI is held up to be the public declaration of commitment between the player, the team, and by extension the MU community. However after this, you just can't look at it exactly the same way again. Whether or not he broke NCAA rules, those of us that our upset about this think Buzz broke Buzz's rules, or MU's rules - or at least the ones we believed for one reason or another were in place. Sure, this was DJ's only chance to be on an MU team he wanted more than anything, but it turns out that Buzz didn't help the kid by allowing him to provisionally sign. All the what-ifs in the world don't change the fact that Buzz declared publicly that DJ was his guy, only to renege on that later. Whether or not DJ knew this, blinded by his desire to attend MU, doesn't make it right. Buzz didn't prevent having to deliver some heartbreaking news to the kid, he only deferred it - while hoping he would get to deliver it later via the signing of a better player.
And from a basketball only standpoint, I'm not entirely convinced that this can't hurt. Buzz's entire appeal seems to be that he's different, that he abides by a higher code than the one imposed on him by the NCAA. This changes the aura and culture of the program, even just a little. We aren't worse than anyone else because of this, but its hard to argue that we aren't more like everyone else because of this. And when you are the little engine that could like we are, there is something dangerous about being like everyone else. Beyond that, I didn't go to MU so I could argue that we were just like everybody else. Although this might be more of a philosophical point than a pragmatic one, i think these types of things that undermine the image you are trying to create can impact the way recruits and others think about the program, and in the end I just don't think its worth it for one player.
-
And when you are the little engine that could like we are,
I guess therein lies the point...Buzz doesn't want to be the conductor on little engine that could. Buzz wants MU to be the conductor on a locomotive. That's why he was hired, to recruit, and that's what he is doing...constantly.
-
We put an offer in on a new home a few weeks ago. We knew it was a solid offer, and we were quite confident we would soon be moving. We also knew there was a competing offer and nothing was certain, but I was already picking out paint colors and planning the move when I heard that ours was rejected. I was immediately pissed at everybody involved....mostly the home buying process, real estate agents, etc. (don't get me started on this...can't we just sit down and arrive at a price so that we both walk away happy?). Then a few days later, reality set in that we ultimatley lost out because I had convinced myself our offer was adequate, and I underestimated the possibility of the alternative, and didn't offer as much as we could have.
Everyone's initial reaction when something doesn't go the way you want it to is to try to blame someone else. What are you gonna do, blame yourself? Once the emotion is removed, reality tends to set in (although I do still think the agent did a crappy job).
Agreed.
-
It'd be like if you asked the hottest girl to the dance and she said she would go with you unless a football player asks. You say yes because it is a chance to go to the dance with the hottest girl. The football player asks the hottest girl and you are crushed because it was your chance. In the end, you knew this was possible the whole time. You can still be disappointed.
Another great reason to go to MU. No football players.
-
Exactly right, and the thing none of the artificially outraged individuals can seem to articulate, is what Buzz Williams has done during his time here that makes them more apt to take the word of a wannabe coach who was fired because someone was jealous of his success, posting on an internet message board, over MU's actual coach who has been a model representative of Marquette University. Is the fact that his name is not Tom Crean really that offensive to you?
Sounds repetitive, but...
This has nothing to do with phillycoach or tom crean whatsoever.
There is no artificial outrage. I am genuinely disappointed.
Even if we assume IWB's version of events to be 100% accurate, I think this situation is unacceptable. I don't think letting a kid sign a NLI when you plan on trying to recruit him off the team before he even steps foot on campus is acceptable, good, moral, right, etc.
-
We put an offer in on a new home a few weeks ago. We knew it was a solid offer, and we were quite confident we would soon be moving. We also knew there was a competing offer and nothing was certain, but I was already picking out paint colors and planning the move when I heard that ours was rejected. I was immediately pissed at everybody involved....mostly the home buying process, real estate agents, etc. (don't get me started on this...can't we just sit down and arrive at a price so that we both walk away happy?). Then a few days later, reality set in that we ultimatley lost out because I had convinced myself our offer was adequate, and I underestimated the possibility of the alternative, and didn't offer as much as we could have.
Everyone's initial reaction when something doesn't go the way you want it to is to try to blame someone else. What are you gonna do, blame yourself? Once the emotion is removed, reality tends to set in (although I do still think the agent did a crappy job).
Your metaphor is invalid. You put in an offer. There are scholarship offers in college basketball that could be roughly equivalent if you want them to be. You did not have the offer accepted, come to a final agreement, and sign. Which I would consider roughly equivalent to DJ's signing a NLI.
Of course there is another step, the closing, which DJ was not able to complete because the seller, MU, backed out of the contract.
-
Sounds repetitive, but...
This has nothing to do with phillycoach or tom crean whatsoever.
There is no artificial outrage. I am genuinely disappointed.
Even if we assume IWB's version of events to be 100% accurate, I think this situation is unacceptable. I don't think letting a kid sign a NLI when you plan on trying to recruit him off the team before he even steps foot on campus is acceptable, good, moral, right, etc.
Even when the kid is a willing participant?
-
I guess therein lies the point...Buzz doesn't want to be the conductor on little engine that could. Buzz wants MU to be the conductor on a locomotive. That's why he was hired, to recruit, and that's what he is doing...constantly.
Then he shouldn't say that it's about the kids first and the other things he says that imply that winning is not his only motivation, but doing things "right" is just as important.
-
What are they, and who's to blame? Is the message inaccurate/dishonest, or is the player choosing to hear what he wants to hear?
If were an isolated incident, I wouldn't know where to place blame. But this is the third time such an instance has occured.
-
Even when the kid is a willing participant?
Yes. It's bad form. It enters a kid into a binding contract with MU that MU has no expectations of honoring itself.
-
If were an isolated incident, I wouldn't know where to place blame. But this is the third time such an instance has occured.
I keep hearing that in generalities. What specifically are the three instances, and what specifically happened that is causing you to place blame on Buzz Williams, as you clearly state you are doing?
-
I keep hearing that in generalities. What specifically are the three instances, and what specifically happened that is causing you to place blame on Buzz Williams, as you clearly state you are doing?
You can't possibly dispute that something happened with DJ Newbill and with Brett Roseboro, can you?
I don't know what the third example is - Maymon probably.
Either way, I think that the first two is enough to warrant considering this a situation that needs to be reversed.
-
Either way, I think that the first two is enough to warrant considering this a situation that needs to be reversed.
Why? What has the negative impact of the Roseborro situation been?
-
If I remember right, the Roseboro transfer left them another player short last season. He wasn't run off. He couldn't hack it. So be it. He landed on his feet at a level more suited for him.
The Maymon situation was a strange beast. Pinning it on Buzz is at best a big reach and at worst disingenuous. It'd be like putting Mbakwe's last minute departure on Buzz.
-
Yes. It's bad form. It enters a kid into a binding contract with MU that MU has no expectations of honoring itself.
That's not exactly true, if IWB's account is mostly, if not entirely accurate.
It's more akin to an option. Under certain conditions, MU was entirely willing to honor the commitment and Newbill purportedly was made aware and agreed with those terms.
If you want to call it bad form, I agree. MU shouldn't be doing it because the negative consequences outweigh the potential benefits.
But if you want to call it immoral, wrong, etc. - and you have - then I disagree. It would only be immoral or wrong if DJ was an unwilling participant.
-
Why? What has the negative impact of the Roseborro situation been?
Marquette's player-to-stabbing incident ratio has fallen off the charts thanks to Roseboro's departure.
Also, the team is far less gingery these days.
-
Why? What has the negative impact of the Roseborro situation been?
Honest question for you Navin (and others): If we have another recruit in 2011 who never makes it to campus and comments that they felt that Marquette backed out on them, would that trouble you that it was three years in a row? How about if it happened again in 2012?
As I've tried to make clear, as long as Buzz was up front with Newbill, I don't really have too much of a problem with this. But if it clearly becomes a pattern (it's open for debate whether it already has become a pattern -- but I don't think twice makes a pattern), do you have a problem with this practice? I'm not sure I want to see a wake of 18 year old kids saying, "where the heck did my scholarship go?" How many would it take before you think it's a problem? Ever? I'm not sure I'm there yet -- waiting to see the interview with DJ -- but I suspect I'm closer to that point than you are.
-
That's not exactly true, if IWB's account is mostly, if not entirely accurate.
It's more akin to an option. Under certain conditions, MU was entirely willing to honor the commitment and Newbill purportedly was made aware and agreed with those terms.
If you want to call it bad form, I agree. MU shouldn't be doing it because the negative consequences outweigh the potential benefits.
But if you want to call it immoral, wrong, etc. - and you have - then I disagree. It would only be immoral or wrong if DJ was an unwilling participant.
I think we're talking semantics now. I agree with you and I think you pretty much agree with me. Maybe I'm just using a harsher word than you are willing to. Maybe I really do go slightly further in my distaste than you. Either way, I think we generally are in agreement - it's bad form and a poor way to conduct the recruiting process.
-
No, Chicos is (correctly) pointing out that IWB's story is Marquette's version of the events.
So you're saying what IWB posted is a lie, but he is not a liar. It sounds like when he writes, "so here is the deal..." he gives the story his backing. I, like just about everyone else on this board, has no idea what really went down, but when you pick one side or the other it seems like you better be willing to admit you're calling one side out for BS. Otherwise just admit you have no idea what happened and reserve judgement until, if ever, the facts are out in the open.
-
Honest question for you Navin (and others): If we have another recruit in 2011 who never makes it to campus and comments that they felt that Marquette backed out on them, would that trouble you that it was three years in a row? How about if it happened again in 2012?
My answer is very simply, it depends. It depends on the specific circumstances. I hope all would agree that the Roseboro decision was in everyone's best interest. He is in a much more appropriate place right now, and I would say there is legitimate questions as to whether or not he will even be good enough to contribute there.
Newbill, I think is similar in that it seems he was not going to be a good enough player to play here. Put me in the camp that believes that was absolutely communicated to him at every point along the way, and he knew full well what happened was a possibility (whether he chose to believe it or not), rolled the dice and was disappointed when snake eyes came up.
Hypothetically, if we take/give a chance to a kid who is questionable academically, and it doesn't work out, again assuming everyone is honest and forthcoming, I wouldn't really see much problem with that either.
What I am finding particularly off putting is how many people are criticizing Buzz Williams based on the version of events supplied by people like Tim Maymon, Coach Spurned Lover, and a disappointed player, even though those comments in no way refute anything supplied by MU via IWB. I realize those individuals have earned the benefit of the doubt because they post comments on this board, when all Buzz Williams has done has been to act as an honest straightforward, model representative of MU in the two+ years he's been here.
-
So you're saying what IWB posted is a lie, but he is not a liar. It sounds like when he writes, "so here is the deal..." he gives the story his backing. I, like just about everyone else on this board, has no idea what really went down, but when you pick one side or the other it seems like you better be willing to admit you're calling one side out for BS. Otherwise just admit you have no idea what happened and reserve judgement until, if ever, the facts are out in the open.
It is clear that IWB's post was basically what a MU guy told him. He never spoke with DJ or anyone close to him.
I am not calling him a liar, just that two people can see the same thing and come up with something different. I don't know what went down either, but some people who are saying that IWB is reporting something 100% factual is wrong...he is reporting 100% what he was told however.
-
Honest question for you Navin (and others): If we have another recruit in 2011 who never makes it to campus and comments that they felt that Marquette backed out on them, would that trouble you that it was three years in a row? How about if it happened again in 2012?
As I've tried to make clear, as long as Buzz was up front with Newbill, I don't really have too much of a problem with this. But if it clearly becomes a pattern (it's open for debate whether it already has become a pattern -- but I don't think twice makes a pattern), do you have a problem with this practice? I'm not sure I want to see a wake of 18 year old kids saying, "where the heck did my scholarship go?" How many would it take before you think it's a problem? Ever? I'm not sure I'm there yet -- waiting to see the interview with DJ -- but I suspect I'm closer to that point than you are.
I guess my trouble with your question is that it makes the Roseboro and Newbill situations analogous, when really they are not.
Roseboro came to campus. Newbill did not.
Roseboro played/practiced with the team. Newbill did not.
Rosebore presumably completed his application/enrollment requirements. Newbill did not.
Roseboro publicly stated it was his choice to leave. Newbill is saying just the opposite.
Heading into Roseboro's freshman year, the program never publicly stated a committed player would not be coming to MU that year. Heading into Newbill's freshman year, the program did publicly state committed player would not be coming to MU that year.
Roseboro's departure left the team shorthanded. Newbill's departure came as a result of there being too many players.
How can you suggest a pattern from two events so dissimilar?
Now, to answer your question anyhow, I'm troubled by it happening one time. I don't think Marquette should be in the habit of signing kids under any pretense other than a 100 percent intention that the kid will be playing for Marquette.
That said, IMO, what occurred here has more to do with bad judgement (by everyone involved) than anything immoral or unethical.
-
I, like just about everyone else on this board, has no idea what really went down, but when you pick one side or the other it seems like you better be willing to admit you're calling one side out for BS.
I am absolutely calling the Newbill side out for BS (though not him specifically as he has said nothing that is contrary to the IWB account), even though I think they probably have convinced themselves it is the truth.
-
thats why i think the greater point here is that for many, the IWB account still leaves a bad taste in our mouths. I wrote earlier, essentially on the belief that IWB's account was completely true. But that still doesn't necessarily answer all the questions or make all the moral ambiguities disappear. As much as anything, the candor is a little disconcerting, because it makes clear where Buzz comes down on an issue that makes many uncomfortable, and find inconsistent with the things we felt lead to believe.
*edited because I evidently disagree with English conventions, and still don't think i got it right.
-
I am absolutely calling the Newbill side out for BS (though not him specifically as he has said nothing that is contrary to the IWB account), even though I think they probably have convinced themselves it is the truth.
I don't know if this is right, but I think you have to at least examine the motivations of the people from Newbill's camp that have commented.
They stand to benefit (at least their egos do) because they've been very involved with helping an upstanding young man get into one of the premiere b-ball conferences in the country. I'm sure they are terribly disappointed, not only for DJ but also for themselves, because this is no longer the case.
I'm not trying to say they are bad people, but that their own motivations and emotions are playing a role in how they interpret what happened and in what they are saying.
-
I guess my trouble with your question is that it makes the Roseboro and Newbill situations analogous, when really they are not.
Roseboro came to campus. Newbill did not.
Roseboro played/practiced with the team. Newbill did not.
Rosebore presumably completed his application/enrollment requirements. Newbill did not.
Roseboro publicly stated it was his choice to leave. Newbill is saying just the opposite.
Heading into Roseboro's freshman year, the program never publicly stated a committed player would not be coming to MU that year. Heading into Newbill's freshman year, the program did publicly state committed player would not be coming to MU that year.
Roseboro's departure left the team shorthanded. Newbill's departure came as a result of there being too many players.
How can you suggest a pattern from two events so dissimilar?
Now, to answer your question anyhow, I'm troubled by it happening one time. I don't think Marquette should be in the habit of signing kids under any pretense other than a 100 percent intention that the kid will be playing for Marquette.
That said, IMO, what occurred here has more to do with bad judgement (by everyone involved) than anything immoral or unethical.
First, to answer the highlighted question -- I explicitly stated that I don't think it's a pattern.
I know there are differences between the situations. I've factored that into my "I don't have much of a problem with this" comment. My question is if every year there is a kid that is recruited and never actually ends up on the team, will some people ever think this is a problem? Will there come a point after three, four, five years when some people will scratch their heads and say, "hmmm...I wonder why this keeps happening? I wonder if maybe it has something to do with Marquette's side of the transaction?" I'm not saying we're there yet.
-
Sounds repetitive, but...
This has nothing to do with phillycoach or tom crean whatsoever.
On one level it does have something to do with Tom Crean.
It seems to me that some people on this board chose to bash Crean's character because he, a.) ran players off and b.) took flyers on recruits that weren't up to par or had issues outside of bball.
Now, it appears that Buzz is establishing a pattern of doing the same thing.
-
It is clear that IWB's post was basically what a MU guy told him. He never spoke with DJ or anyone close to him.
I am not calling him a liar, just that two people can see the same thing and come up with something different. I don't know what went down either, but some people who are saying that IWB is reporting something 100% factual is wrong...he is reporting 100% what he was told however.
You have no idea if what IWB is posting is 100% factual or not...if you have proof that it is not, please call him out on it. Until then, reserve judgement, which Chico's obviously didn't do.
-
I guess my trouble with your question is that it makes the Roseboro and Newbill situations analogous, when really they are not.
Roseboro came to campus. Newbill did not.
Roseboro played/practiced with the team. Newbill did not.
Rosebore presumably completed his application/enrollment requirements. Newbill did not.
Roseboro publicly stated it was his choice to leave. Newbill is saying just the opposite.
Heading into Roseboro's freshman year, the program never publicly stated a committed player would not be coming to MU that year. Heading into Newbill's freshman year, the program did publicly state committed player would not be coming to MU that year.
Roseboro's departure left the team shorthanded. Newbill's departure came as a result of there being too many players.
How can you suggest a pattern from two events so dissimilar?
Now, to answer your question anyhow, I'm troubled by it happening one time. I don't think Marquette should be in the habit of signing kids under any pretense other than a 100 percent intention that the kid will be playing for Marquette.
That said, IMO, what occurred here has more to do with bad judgement (by everyone involved) than anything immoral or unethical.
Here's another difference: when Roseboro was signed, everyone expected him to get to campus, start classes and be on the team; when Newbill was signed the staff seemed to think (hope?) he wouldn't be there, either because he wouldn't qualify, he would accept going to prep school or he would be over-recruited.
Buzz didn't take any heat for the Roseboro situation (except for the question about how a non-BEast caliber player that had just one weekend of superb ball could get a scholarship), because it was clearly a case of bad judgment, and Roseboro himself acknowledged it.
Unfortunately for Buzz, it appears that the third scenario has come to pass. So, he is getting, and deserving it my mind, heat for the Newbill situation because he essentially made a written commitment to DJ (even if it was conditional, and even if it was clear to DJ) with the intention/hope/possibility of pulling out of that commitment. I don't really care if it was immoral, unethical or bad judgment, but it was a poor choice, and counter to the messages Buzz sends out about himself.
I won't lose faith in Buzz, but I will look at him differently. He didn't need to handle Newbill's recruitment and cutting the way he did, and I, lil' ol' peon that I am, wish he hadn't.
-
What I am finding particularly off putting is how many people are criticizing Buzz Williams based on the version of events supplied by people like Tim Maymon, Coach Spurned Lover, and a disappointed player, even though those comments in no way refute anything supplied by MU via IWB. I realize those individuals have earned the benefit of the doubt because they post comments on this board, when all Buzz Williams has done has been to act as an honest straightforward, model representative of MU in the two+ years he's been here.
To me, it's not a matter of one side is right and one is wrong or one side is telling the truth and the other is lying. I firmly believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle but there is still reason for criticism of Buzz and the MU staff.
Best case scenario is that Buzz tried to make it clear to DJ that he would be recruited over, and he tried to make it clear to Roseboro and Yous that if they didn't display enough ability and effort that they would be let go, and he tried to make it clear to JMay and Tim that JM would play whatever position the team needed him to play and he would have to earn minutes/offensive touches. This best case scenario still leaves me with two problems/concerns.
First, the comments by DJ, Philly Coach, people close to Roseboro, and Tim Maymon suggest that, at a minimum, Buzz did not communicate the above messages clearly enough. This is starting to look like a trend to me. If people seem to be constantly misinterpreting your message, it is probably time to look in the mirror and figure out how you can do a better job of communicating that message. One fact that is indisputable is that more than one individual during Buzz's tenure feel that they were wronged by Buzz and MU. To me, that is a problem that needs to be addressed.
The second issue with the best case scenario, is that the practice of over recruiting and dismissing players opens the program up to speculation and criticism. This is obviously a calculated risk and I am not saying that Buzz should never over recruit or force guys out of the program but if you are going to do it, you better be damn sure that you have mitigated the potential negative effects as much as possible. If we are going to make conditional offers like this, then it must be made clear that one of the conditions is that the player and his camp will not trash MU when he is asked to leave. Otherwise, we shouldn't be making conditional offers.
-
You have no idea if what IWB is posting is 100% factual or not...if you have proof that it is not, please call him out on it. Until then, reserve judgement, which Chico's obviously didn't do.
No one has any idea of what any one has said is 100% factual.
Furthermore, I actually never said what IWB wrote *wasn't* factual, just that it was MU side of the story and should be recognized as such.
-
No one here, or on any of the other message boards, has a clue as to what the facts are in this case. Nothing but speculation and pure conjecture. Time for the silly season to stop. Lets talk basketball. Its only 106 days to October 15th.
-
I know, if that Philadelphia pipeline we have been milking all these years dries up, man, we are screwed.
Are you serious? We're "screwed" if the Philly market dries up? I forgot that was the mega hub of college basketball recruits. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of great basketball programs that have zero inroads to Philly.
-
Are you serious? We're "screwed" if the Philly market dries up? I forgot that was the mega hub of college basketball recruits. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of great basketball programs that have zero inroads to Philly.
Sarcasm
-
Are you serious? We're "screwed" if the Philly market dries up? I forgot that was the mega hub of college basketball recruits. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of great basketball programs that have zero inroads to Philly.
Sad...it's a lost art.
-
No one has any idea of what any one has said is 100% factual.
Furthermore, I actually never said what IWB wrote *wasn't* factual, just that it was MU side of the story and should be recognized as such.
You're wrong. Chicos knows the facts. In the Roseboro situation, Buzz and Roseboro were lying and Roseboro's coach was telling the truth. In this case, Buzz has been telling anybody and everybody for months that one of this year's recruits wouldn't be coming to MU this summer and that said recruit knew who he was. DJ and Stan Laws say Buzz told everybody but them. I know how preposterous that sounds, but when a self-proclaimed "Buzz lover" like Chicos says it's so who am I to argue?
-
You're wrong. Chicos knows the facts. In the Roseboro situation, Buzz and Roseboro were lying and Roseboro's coach was telling the truth. In this case, Buzz has been telling anybody and everybody for months that one of this year's recruits wouldn't be coming to MU this summer and that said recruit knew who he was. DJ and Stan Laws say Buzz told everybody but them. I know how preposterous that sounds, but when a self-proclaimed "Buzz lover" like Chicos says it's so who am I to argue?
If Buzz and MU had effectively communicated, then we wouldn't have 3 different parties in two years claiming that Buzz said one thing and did another. Not to mention the people in New Orleans who made the same allegation. Communication is a two part transaction. Did Buzz and the staff do everything they could to make sure the message was received properly by DJ, Roseboro, Maymon?
-
If Buzz and MU had effectively communicated, then we wouldn't have 3 different parties in two years claiming that Buzz said one thing and did another. Not to mention the people in New Orleans who made the same allegation. Communication is a two part transaction. Did Buzz and the staff do everything they could to make sure the message was received properly by DJ, Roseboro, Maymon?
Roseboro's remarks indicate no communication problems with Buzz or his staff. From his own words I think it's pretty clear that Tim Maymon has always heard what he wanted to hear regarding Jeronne. I'm waiting to hear more on DJ, but I'll grant you it appears Buzz and the staff could/should have been better communicators.
-
I am absolutely calling the Newbill side out for BS (though not him specifically as he has said nothing that is contrary to the IWB account), even though I think they probably have convinced themselves it is the truth.
Why would a kid sign a NLI and give up his options if he was going to Prep School? Can you or anyone else answer this for me?
-
You're wrong. Chicos knows the facts. In the Roseboro situation, Buzz and Roseboro were lying and Roseboro's coach was telling the truth. In this case, Buzz has been telling anybody and everybody for months that one of this year's recruits wouldn't be coming to MU this summer and that said recruit knew who he was. DJ and Stan Laws say Buzz told everybody but them. I know how preposterous that sounds, but when a self-proclaimed "Buzz lover" like Chicos says it's so who am I to argue?
Nice try....I was pointing out the similarities now with two different recruits in two different years with the same coach.
Yet some people want to blame the recruits, I'm only pointing out that this seems to have happened more than once with only one common denominator.
Now, does that make Buzz a liar? No, nor did I ever say that so your cheap shot there is nothing but crap. However, I would say that there seems to be a communication breakdown going on with some of these kids, their coaches and their families.
Someone is either not listening (the players \ coaches \ families) or someone is not communicating clearly (our staff).
When you communicate CLEARLY you don't have kids STUNNED when they are asked to leave.
I ask again, why on earth would a kid sign a NLI to play at a school if he was told he would be going to a Prep School....why give up all your options, including a free ride somewhere else? Secondly, why on earth after the NLI is signed would Marquette talk of him as if he is on this year's team and no mention at all of prep school? Third, if Wilson didn't want to transfer in would Newbill be on the Marquette squad....I think you know that answer.
-
No one has any idea of what any one has said is 100% factual.
Furthermore, I actually never said what IWB wrote *wasn't* factual, just that it was MU side of the story and should be recognized as such.
You're previous quote:
"I don't know what went down either, but some people who are saying that IWB is reporting something 100% factual is wrong...he is reporting 100% what he was told however."
In one sentence you say that to believe what he's saying is 100% factual is wrong, and in the other you admit that you have no idea what is factual and that you never said what he posted wasn't factual. So what you're saying is that what IWB is reporting factual information that he was told, but that the information he was told was not factual. I'm asking you to prove that.
-
You're previous quote:
"I don't know what went down either, but some people who are saying that IWB is reporting something 100% factual is wrong...he is reporting 100% what he was told however."
In one sentence you say that to believe what he's saying is 100% factual is wrong, and in the other you admit that you have no idea what is factual and that you never said what he posted wasn't factual. So what you're saying is that what IWB is reporting factual information that he was told, but that the information he was told was not factual. I'm asking you to prove that.
It is likely not 100% factual. Jesus....
-
When you communicate CLEARLY you don't have kids STUNNED when they are asked to leave.
I ask again, why on earth would a kid sign a NLI to play at a school if he was told he would be going to a Prep School....why give up all your options, including a free ride somewhere else? Secondly, why on earth after the NLI is signed would Marquette talk of him as if he is on this year's team and no mention at all of prep school? Third, if Wilson didn't want to transfer in would Newbill be on the Marquette squad....I think you know that answer.
I called an employee into my office three months ago and told him (verbally and with papers) his position would be eliminated on June 30, but I wanted to give him as much time as possible to find something new. The last three months we talked a few times about his job search, and it was not going well for him. About a week ago I called him in to see if he needed any help moving out of his office and he was shocked that I was actually going to lay him off.
I get the skepticism, as this makes no sense to me either, but MU's story is out there, and I'm not sure we'll ever know how honest Buzz and the staff were with this kid. I don't see what good it does to speculate.
-
Why would a kid sign a NLI and give up his options if he was going to Prep School? Can you or anyone else answer this for me?
Think that's been asked and answered, but at the risk of being redundant: DJ was MAYBE a top 500 kid. His options were MU (if we couldn't sign a big), prep school or a place like Drexel. His aspirations are higher than Drexel. He can a) go to prep school to possibly improve his standing or b) sign with MU with the caveat that if MU can find a better, bigger player he'll have to go back to plan a). For a kid with bigger dreams than Drexel this seems like a no-brainer.
-
Nice try....I was pointing out the similarities now with two different recruits in two different years with the same coach.
Yet some people want to blame the recruits, I'm only pointing out that this seems to have happened more than once with only one common denominator.
Now, does that make Buzz a liar? No, nor did I ever say that so your cheap shot there is nothing but crap. However, I would say that there seems to be a communication breakdown going on with some of these kids, their coaches and their families.
Someone is either not listening (the players \ coaches \ families) or someone is not communicating clearly (our staff).
When you communicate CLEARLY you don't have kids STUNNED when they are asked to leave.
I ask again, why on earth would a kid sign a NLI to play at a school if he was told he would be going to a Prep School....why give up all your options, including a free ride somewhere else? Secondly, why on earth after the NLI is signed would Marquette talk of him as if he is on this year's team and no mention at all of prep school? Third, if Wilson didn't want to transfer in would Newbill be on the Marquette squad....I think you know that answer.
These "kids were stunned when they were asked to leave"? I don't recall Roseboro saying he was stunned or asked to leave. Please reference his statement(s) saying otherwise.
-
I also haven't seen Newbill say he was stunned by this whole thing. He said he was a little upset, which I would be too if this didn't work out for him.
-
Why would a kid sign a NLI and give up his options if he was going to Prep School? Can you or anyone else answer this for me?
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but if he attends prep school, his NLI would be "satisfied" and he could then re-open his recruitment and go elsewhere. Thus, it would not be "giving up his options" as you claim.
Beyond that, I find it unlikely that MU would refuse to release him from his NLI if he chose prep school, especially after stating they expected one of their recruits (gee ... I wonder which one) to go to prep school.
-
Let's take the pro-MU or pro-Buzz emotions out of the picture.
How would we feel if Jim Calhoun did the same thing?
Or Rick Pitino?
Or Bob Huggins?
Or Mike Krzyswewski?
We all know the answer--those coaches would be slammed around here for doing so.
Here's the potential long term negative. If the LOI means nothing to the team--and that frankly is the effective result of Newbill's departure--what is to stop all programs from adopting the practice of taking one or two extra players every year?
Teams could easily mitigate their recruiting risk, reduce the impact of transfers, eliminate short rosters due to summer injury, not have to worry about non-qualifiers leaving a hole in the roster, etc. They simply take a couple extra LOIs. Then, if there are no transfers, injuries or non-qualifiers, they simply dump the two worst players.
And after MU the last two seasons, why wouldn't every team in America start to sign an extra player? As Buzz has demonstrated, aside from some bad press and ill feelings from a player you don't want anyway, there is absolutely no penalty for cutting loose a player who signed an LOI. Its even worse--the MU staff sits in good conscience knowing that Roseboro still got a free ride for a D1 team, and fully expect that someone will pick up Newbill.
But what if EVERY team in D1 did the same thing as Buzz and none of them suffered a departure? There would be 346 other kids today just like Newbill, all looking for a team.
Its simple math--when the music stops playing, there will be 4858 (347 x 14) players vying for 4511 chairs (347 x 13). 347 players will be left out because each team signed 14 players but has only 13 scholarships to give.
It can't go on--and I fully expect the NCAA will see to it that it won't.
-
The problem bringing Roseboro into this mess is that we didn't replace him with someone else, his roster spot went empty last year. Do you really think it would have been in Roseboro's best interest to sit at the end of the MU bench for a year, transfer someplace and sit out another year, and then finally resume playing competitive basketball 2 years later?
-
Here's the potential long term negative. If the LOI means nothing to the team--and that frankly is the effective result of Newbill's departure--what is to stop all programs from adopting the practice of taking one or two extra players every year?
Teams could easily mitigate their recruiting risk, reduce the impact of transfers, eliminate short rosters due to summer injury, not have to worry about non-qualifiers leaving a hole in the roster, etc. They simply take a couple extra LOIs. Then, if there are no transfers, injuries or non-qualifiers, they simply dump the two worst players.
Huh?
This already happens all over the place, including at Marquette, including under the prior coaching regime.
Does the name Damian Saunders ring a bell? Do you think MU just caught a lucky break when it suddenly discovered his academics weren't so hot and it magically solved the problem of having more scholarship players than scholarships?
It can't go on???
It has gone on. For a long time.
[/quote]
-
Huh?
This already happens all over the place, including at Marquette, including under the prior coaching regime.
Does the name Damian Saunders ring a bell? Do you think MU just caught a lucky break when it suddenly discovered his academics weren't so hot and it magically solved the problem of having more scholarship players than scholarships?
It can't go on???
It has gone on. For a long time.
I'm going to plead ignorance here, but does it really happen all the time and all over the place? I'm not saying that it doesn't...I don't personally know. Everyone brings up Saunders. Point taken. But is that the only time it happened in Crean's nine years? I don't remember others, but I didn't always follow these things as closely as I do now. Did it happen under Deane? O'Neill? Dukiet? I vaguely recall some players who didn't qualify while I was at Marquette (87-91), but I don't recall the specifics of when that came to light.
Does it happen at other schools a lot? And by "it" I'm referring to offering a scholarship, getting an NLI, and then the kid doesn't ever show up for the first day of classes (either because the scholarship is pulled or the kid is told that it doesn't look like he's going to cut it). I'm not saying it doesn't happen a lot, but I don't hear about it a lot. But I don't follow these things nearly as closely as some on this board.
-
Let's take the pro-MU or pro-Buzz emotions out of the picture.
How would we feel if Jim Calhoun did the same thing?
Or Rick Pitino?
Or Bob Huggins?
Or Mike Krzyswewski?
I suspect that, as is the case here, save for a bunch of internet nerds (us), most people wouldn't even know about it, and thus wouldn't care. Which is why this is such a non-issue. Beyond that, if nothing was offensive, immoral, unethical was done, there is really no reason for anyone to be slammed.
-
I suspect that, as is the case here, save for a bunch of internet nerds (us), most people wouldn't even know about it, and thus wouldn't care. Which is why this is such a non-issue. Beyond that, if nothing was offensive, immoral, unethical was done, there is really no reason for anyone to be slammed.
You are absolutely correct. The vast majority of the sporting world neither knows nor cares about this little saga that is captivating all of us. And given how I think this thing probably went down, Buzz doesn't need to be slammed.
But, I also do think that some people -- specifically 16 and 17 year old boys who can really play ball and their parents -- will know about this. That's because when Bo Ryan, Jamie Dixon, Rick Pitino and others sit in their living room, they're going to say, "so, you're considering an offer from Marquette? Boy, for your sake I hope that offer is still there when you get to campus." You know they will. They should. Buzz would, and should, do the same.
-
I'm going to plead ignorance here, but does it really happen all the time and all over the place? I'm not saying that it doesn't...I don't personally know. Everyone brings up Saunders. Point taken. But is that the only time it happened in Crean's nine years? I don't remember others, but I didn't always follow these things as closely as I do now. Did it happen under Deane? O'Neill? Dukiet? I vaguely recall some players who didn't qualify while I was at Marquette (87-91), but I don't recall the specifics of when that came to light.
Does it happen at other schools a lot? And by "it" I'm referring to offering a scholarship, getting an NLI, and then the kid doesn't ever show up for the first day of classes (either because the scholarship is pulled or the kid is told that it doesn't look like he's going to cut it). I'm not saying it doesn't happen a lot, but I don't hear about it a lot. But I don't follow these things nearly as closely as some on this board.
The "it" I was referring to was the practice of taking more commitments than spots available at the moment with the expectation that a spot would be opening up (i.e. transfer, early draft entry, academic casualty, etc.). And I probably was exaggerating - for which, no doubt, Marquette84 will come out swinging - with my "all the time" comment. Let's just say it's not uncommon.
-
The "it" I was referring to was the practice of taking more commitments than spots available at the moment with the expectation that a spot would be opening up (i.e. transfer, early draft entry, academic casualty, etc.). And I probably was exaggerating - for which, no doubt, Marquette84 will come out swinging - with my "all the time" comment. Let's just say it's not uncommon.
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification. Following up on my question, though: is the situation described in my post (offer, NLI, no-go) uncommon?
I agree that the situation you clarified (more commitments than spots) is very common. I do see that "all the time" and it usually ends up working out.
-
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification. Following up on my question, though: is the situation described in my post (offer, NLI, no-go) uncommon?
Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question.
When it does happen, I suspect it's far more often the result of an off-court issue with the player (academic or otherwise) or a player decision than the university's decision. I don't think schools are in the habit of taking LOIs from kids they might not want, nor should they be.
Again, it think it was stupid for MU to sign a kid without a 100 percent intetion of him playing at Marquette next year. That said, it doesn't necessarily make the situation immoral or nefarious. Just poor judgment/decision-making.
-
Huh?
This already happens all over the place, including at Marquette, including under the prior coaching regime.
Does the name Damian Saunders ring a bell? Do you think MU just caught a lucky break when it suddenly discovered his academics weren't so hot and it magically solved the problem of having more scholarship players than scholarships?
It can't go on???
It has gone on. For a long time.
Are you saying MU's admissions office is a party to fraud by improperly denying admission to Saunders for the sole purpose of getting out of a contract (his LOI?). That's a pretty serious charge. Hope you have evidence to back it up.
Seriously, if it were this easy, we would have used the same reason for Newbill, no?
The admissions department could have "suddenly discovered" that Newbill's academics weren't so hot, hence "magically" solving the problem, without burning any bridges or opening up Buzz to national scorn.
So either Buzz was too stupid to ask the admissions office to gin up some excuse to deny Newbill admission.
Or the admissions office had legitimate reason to deny Saunders admission, and no such reason for Newbill.
-
Are you saying MU's admissions office is a party to fraud by improperly denying admission to Saunders for the sole purpose of getting out of a contract (his LOI?). That's a pretty serious charge. Hope you have evidence to back it up.
Seriously, if it were this easy, we would have used the same reason for Newbill, no?
The admissions department could have "suddenly discovered" that Newbill's academics weren't so hot, hence "magically" solving the problem, without burning any bridges or opening up Buzz to national scorn.
So either Buzz was too stupid to ask the admissions office to gin up some excuse to deny Newbill admission.
Or the admissions office had legitimate reason to deny Saunders admission, and no such reason for Newbill.
The admissions office didn't have to gin up an excuse since Newbill never even sent in his application.
-
I agree that the situation you clarified (more commitments than spots) is very common. I do see that "all the time" and it usually ends up working out.
Where Pakuni is off base is implying that schools break the LOI to accommodate their oversigning.
Almost always, its a returning player who loses the scholarship--because the incoming player is guaranteed a scholarship under the terms of the LOI.
In Saunders case, it is most likely that had he qualified for admission, we would have seen an announcement that Trend Blackledge has left the team to focus on his academics.
-
It is a thin loophole/excuse/technicality, and the whole thing still makes me feel like I need a shower, but the kid never applied. I wasn't accepted at schools I didn't apply to. This whole thing has left me really conflicted. I can argue it several different ways. And that is the underlying problem. So many fine-lines, loopholes and technicalities.
-
The admissions office didn't have to gin up an excuse since Newbill never even sent in his application.
Per the terms of the NLI, Newbill had until September 1 to file an application.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/nli/NLI/NLI+Provisions/Letter+Becomes+Null+and+Void
" Admissions Requirement. This NLI shall be declared null and void if the institution named in this document notifies me in writing that I have been denied admission or, by the opening day of classes in fall 2010, has failed to provide me with written notice of admission, provided I have submitted a complete admission application. It is my obligation to provide, by request, my academic records and an application for admission to the signing institution. If I fail to submit the necessary academic credentials and/or application to determine an admission decision prior to September 1, the NLI shall be declared null and void.."
-
Are you saying MU's admissions office is a party to fraud by improperly denying admission to Saunders for the sole purpose of getting out of a contract (his LOI?). That's a pretty serious charge. Hope you have evidence to back it up.
Fraud? Fraud? How would it be fraud, exactly?
The university has a right to deny and accept admissions as it sees fit, so long as its not based on discrimination against a protected class. And the LOI is not a binding, legally enforceable document should the university deny admission.
This isn't rocket science. It's barely Contracts Law 101. Saunders was denied admission, therefore Saunders LOI was not binding.
The point is, Saunders' grades were bad when Tom Crean offered him a scholarship.
Saunders' grades were bad when he signed his NLI.
Saunders' grades were bad in April, May, June and July of 2007.
And yet it was only at the end of August, when everyone was enrolling and it became certain that MU had more players than scholarships, that the university decided it would not admit him.
Now, do you believe the university was under the impression that Saunders' high school grades would get markedly better between June and August of 2007?
If not, what other reason would they have for waiting so long to determine he lacked the grades to get into Marquette?
Could it be that they were waiting to see who showed up for classes at the start of the fall semester?
Hmmm.
Seriously, if it were this easy, we would have used the same reason for Newbill, no?
Sure, they could have.
Problem is, it's hard to deny admission to someone who hasn't applied for admission.
-
Per the terms of the NLI, Newbill had until September 1 to file an application.
Well he should hurry up and get it in then. This fiasco should give him plenty of material for the essay.
-
Fraud? Fraud? How would it be fraud, exactly?
The university has a right to deny and accept admissions as it sees fit, so long as its not based on discrimination against a protected class. And the LOI is not a binding, legally enforceable document should the university deny admission.
This isn't rocket science. It's barely Contracts Law 101. Saunders was denied admission, therefore Saunders LOI was not binding.
The point is, Saunders' grades were bad when Tom Crean offered him a scholarship.
Saunders' grades were bad when he signed his NLI.
Saunders' grades were bad in April, May, June and July of 2007.
And yet it was only at the end of August, when everyone was enrolling and it became certain that MU had more players than scholarships, that the university decided it would not admit him.
Now, do you believe the university was under the impression that Saunders' high school grades would get markedly better between June and August of 2007?
If not, what other reason would they have for waiting so long to determine he lacked the grades to get into Marquette?
Could it be that they were waiting to see who showed up for classes at the start of the fall semester?
Hmmm.
Sure, they could have.
Problem is, it's hard to deny admission to someone who hasn't applied for admission.
+1 The same admissions board that denied Saunders found it in their hearts to admit D Wade and we all know which one of the two was more "qualified".
-
Does the name Damian Saunders ring a bell?
Does arrested on drug charges ring a bell? That certainly, in my book, falls into the camp of eggregious violation and a reason to break the commitment.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/29381254.html
Furthermore, he didn't qualify academically, something Newbill DID.
You're not comparing apples to apples
-
Does arrested on drug charges ring a bell? That certainly, in my book, falls into the camp of eggregious violation and a reason to break the commitment.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/29381254.html
Furthermore, he didn't qualify academically, something Newbill DID.
You're not comparing apples to apples
What?
Damian Saunders absolutely qualified academically. How the heck do you think he played for Duquense just a few months after getting the boot from Marquette.
Marquette used the nebulous excuse that even though Saunders met NCAA requirements, he did not meet the school's requirements. Which is odd, given that Dwayne Wade did not meet NCAA requirements, yet somehow was admitted to Marquette. Maybe MU's standards are on a sliding scale, based on one's NBA potential.
The arrest thing has been addressed elsewhere. Crean said the arrest had nothing to do with it. If it did, why did the university wait two months after learning of the arrest to deny his admission?
-
Does arrested on drug charges ring a bell? That certainly, in my book, falls into the camp of eggregious violation and a reason to break the commitment.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/29381254.html
Furthermore, he didn't qualify academically, something Newbill DID.
You're not comparing apples to apples
And Tom Crean is quoted as saying the marijuana arrest was not a big problem and had NOTHING to do with Saunders not being admitted. So unless you're calling your boy a liar you can drop the drug arrest straw man.
-
Fraud? Fraud? How would it be fraud, exactly?
I'll step back and give you the chance to explain EXACTLY what you meant with your use of the terms "suddenly discovered" and "magically solved" if you didn't mean to imply some sort of dishonest motives.
And while you're at it, why don't you list those other cases that you claim are similar to Newbill.
-
I'll step back and give you the chance to explain EXACTLY what you meant with your use of the terms "suddenly discovered" and "magically solved" if you didn't mean to imply some sort of dishonest motives.
And while you're at it, why don't you list those other cases that you claim are similar to Newbill.
1. I meant that Damian Saunders' academics, and whether they were on par with Marquette's standards, only became an issue when it was clear the basketball team had more scholarship players than scholarships. They weren't a problem when he commited. Nor were they a problem when he signed. Or in May, June or July. Then all of a sudden things changed. What possibly could have happened between June and late August to have changed his academic situation? And why was a player like Dwayne Wade - who didn't meet NCAA standards - admitted, while Saunders - who did meet NCAA standards - denied? Did MU's standards change? And is it just a convenient coincidence that they changed just about the time Marquette had too many players and needed to cut someone loose?
2. When did I ever claim there are "other cases similar to Newbill." In fact, I said something close to the opposite.
"Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question. When it does happen, I suspect it's far more often the result of an off-court issue with the player (academic or otherwise) or a player decision than the university's decision. I don't think schools are in the habit of taking LOIs from kids they might not want, nor should they be."
Now, answer my questions (the ones you conveniently ignored).
How did Damian Saunders' academic situation change between June 2007 and August 2007?
How exactly would MU's decision to deny Saunders admission constitute fraud?
-
Does arrested on drug charges ring a bell? That certainly, in my book, falls into the camp of eggregious violation and a reason to break the commitment.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/29381254.html
Furthermore, he didn't qualify academically, something Newbill DID.
You're not comparing apples to apples
Definitely not, Saunders was/is a big and Newbill is a guard. I bet plenty of times, Crean wished he had that decision back and had more inside help for the three amigos.
-
Is it too late to change this thread's title to: "Don't get your panties all in a bunch."
-
If you believe that someone at MU said that verbatim, on the record, I have some swampland to sell you.
If true, that spokesman should be fired immediately.
If its true Buzz should be fired immediately.
-
You can't possibly dispute that something happened with DJ Newbill and with Brett Roseboro, can you?
I don't know what the third example is - Maymon probably.
Either way, I think that the first two is enough to warrant considering this a situation that needs to be reversed.
You forgot one.........UNO
-
1. I meant that Damian Saunders' academics, and whether they were on par with Marquette's standards, only became an issue when it was clear the basketball team had more scholarship players than scholarships. They weren't a problem when he commited. Nor were they a problem when he signed. Or in May, June or July. Then all of a sudden things changed. What possibly could have happened between June and late August to have changed his academic situation? And why was a player like Dwayne Wade - who didn't meet NCAA standards - admitted, while Saunders - who did meet NCAA standards - denied? Did MU's standards change? And is it just a convenient coincidence that they changed just about the time Marquette had too many players and needed to cut someone loose?
Didn't we also know we had too many players the day Saunders signed? You make it sound like we suddenly discovered too many players--in reality that fact was known for just as long as Saunders' grades.
Meanwhile, the last dates for the ACT/SAT are in mid-June, and if the writing test was involved it can take 8 weeks to post scores. That would put the timeline for a final decision in mid August.
The receipt of the final set of test scores provides a far more credible story than your allegations that we "suddenly" discovered we had too many players.
2. When did I ever claim there are "other cases similar to Newbill." In fact, I said something close to the opposite.
You said, and I quote:
"It has gone on. For a long time."
I don't believe this has gone on. I believe cutting players that would otherwise be protected by an LOI is treading new ground.
"Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question. When it does happen, I suspect it's far more often the result of an off-court issue with the player (academic or otherwise) or a player decision than the university's decision. I don't think schools are in the habit of taking LOIs from kids they might not want, nor should they be."
And I'm not talking about those cases. I'm talking about the novel approach of jettisoning a player who is otherwise qualified and still (supposedly) protected under an LOI.
MU has done that two years in a row.
My point was that we'd be upset here if we learned that Pitino, Calhoun, Krzyszewski, or Huggins did the same thing.
And the second point is that it is an unsustainable practice if all schools did the same thing we did and would undoubtedly cause the NCAA to get involved.
Now, answer my questions (the ones you conveniently ignored).
How did Damian Saunders' academic situation change between June 2007 and August 2007?
The final test date occurred in mid-June and scores may not have been fully reported until up to 8 weeks later (mid-August).
How exactly would MU's decision to deny Saunders admission constitute fraud?
MU was obligated to provide a scholarship to Saunders. Denying him admission under the false pretense that he was academically unqualified, but really for the sole purpose of breaking that agreement, would constitute fraud.
I'm willing to accept that MU denied Saunders admission after receiving the final test scores and determining that he would not succeed academically.
You implied that they lied about his academics and were really attempting to get out from under a contract. You're alleging fraud.
BTW, the difference with Wade is that he had a poor GPA based on his early HS career, but was, in fact, earning good grades by his senior year--just not good enough to offset his bad start. Therefore, its reasonable to conclude that he constituted an acceptable academic risk.
-
You are absolutely beyond the pale, 84. Sanders was FULLY qualified by NCAA standards and was enrolled at Duquesne on full scholarship days after MU (who didn't have room for him due to oversigning) allegedly decided that he didn't pass academic muster. If you honestly believe thay he wouldn't have been admitted if we weren't "overbooked" you are naive beyond belief.
And Wade was prop 48 because of his ACT scores, so take the BS about why we took him somewhere else. We took him because he absolutely blew up his senior year and was viewed as a possible program changer.
-
Furthermore, he didn't qualify academically, something Newbill DID.
When they say that DJ was qualified academically, do they mean qualified under NCAA standards, or do they mean qualified for admission to Marquette? Do we know?
-
These "kids were stunned when they were asked to leave"? I don't recall Roseboro saying he was stunned or asked to leave. Please reference his statement(s) saying otherwise.
To be fair, we don't know what the conversation was between Roseboro and Buzz.
But, I think it's fair to say that a kid coming to campus and then leaving right before school starts is "suprising" and/or "stunning".
We don't if Buzz asked him to leave, but I don't think Roseboro would have come to MU to play in the summer if he thought he'd be transferring... so I don't think "stunned" is an unfair description.
Back to your regularly scheduled debate(s).
-
To be fair, we don't know what the conversation was between Roseboro and Buzz.
But, I think it's fair to say that a kid coming to campus and then leaving right before school starts is "suprising" and/or "stunning".
We don't if Buzz asked him to leave, but I don't think Roseboro would have come to MU to play in the summer if he thought he'd be transferring... so I don't think "stunned" is an unfair description.
Back to your regularly scheduled debate(s).
Maybe you were stunned. Maybe Chicos was stunned. Maybe you think Rosebero should have been stunned. Maybe Chicos thinks Roseboro should have been stunned. But nothing in anything ROSEBERO said indicated he was stunned. Ergo, stating that he was stunned is indeed an unfair description.
-
Didn't we also know we had too many players the day Saunders signed? You make it sound like we suddenly discovered too many players--in reality that fact was known for just as long as Saunders' grades.
Meanwhile, the last dates for the ACT/SAT are in mid-June, and if the writing test was involved it can take 8 weeks to post scores. That would put the timeline for a final decision in mid August.
The receipt of the final set of test scores provides a far more credible story than your allegations that we "suddenly" discovered we had too many players.
When did Saunders take his ACT or SAT?
What, you don't know? You're basing your entire argument around a complete fabrication - or, at best, complete guess - as to when the kid may or may not have taken the test?
Classic.
Beyond that, though, it's irrelevant. And that's because just a few short weeks after MU cut Saunders loose, he was playing at Duquense ... fully qualified.
Did MU know it had too many players when it signed Saunders? Obviously. They signed him because they believed a member of thew team - most likely Dominic James - would not be returning for the 2007-08 season and Damian would fill that spot. When it didn't happen that way - James had a lousy sophomore season and returned - they were in a pinch and needed to jettison someone. Damian Saunders was that someone.
The only alternative under your "theory" is that they signed Saunders hoping he wouldn't qualify academically. Cause if he did, they'd have too many players. Which is exactly what happened.
You said, and I quote:
"It has gone on. For a long time."
Seriously, is it possible for you to have a conversation without misstating or misrepresenting what others write.
Here's what I wrote after that, the part you chose to leave out:
The "it" I was referring to was the practice of taking more commitments than spots available at the moment with the expectation that a spot would be opening up (i.e. transfer, early draft entry, academic casualty, etc.).
Weird how you forgot to include that. Probably just an accidental oversight.
And I'm not talking about those cases. I'm talking about the novel approach of jettisoning a player who is otherwise qualified and still (supposedly) protected under an LOI.
Except Newbill was not protected under a LOI. You can claim it all you want, but it won't make it true.
The final test date occurred in mid-June and scores may not have been fully reported until up to 8 weeks later (mid-August).
And once again, I ask, when did Saunders take the test?
And why is it relevant if he fully qualified?
I suppose we could make the argument that it's because MU as more rigorous standards than the NCAA. But we know that's not true. Lots of schools like to think so. UW fans will say the same thing. But very few schools actually do. And Marquette isn't one of them.
MU was obligated to provide a scholarship to Saunders. Denying him admission under the false pretense that he was academically unqualified, but really for the sole purpose of breaking that agreement, would constitute fraud.
No, Marquette absolutely was not obligated to provide a scholarship to Saunders.
Now you're just making stuff up.
I'll go over it again, slower this time.
1. Marquette University has the absolute right to admit or deny anyone admission for whatever reason it chooses, so long as there is not discrimination on the basis of a that person being in a protected class (i.e. race, religion, age, gender, disability, nation of origin, etc.). If Marquette doesn't like your hairstyle, it can deny you admission. Marquette can deny you admission if it thinks your test scores are too good. Marquette can deny you admission if it doesn't like your favorite TV show. And, yeah, Marquette can deny you admission if it doesn't want you on its basketball team.
2. A National Letter of Intent becomes a binding agreement if - and only if - the student-athlete is admitted into the university or college with which he or she signs the letter. No admission, no deal. This exists for obvious reasons.
3. Damian Saunders was not admitted to Marquette University. Therefore, his National Letter of Intent was not a binding agreement. And therefore, Marquette University had zero obligation to provide Damian Saunders with a scholarship.
As I said earlier, it isn't rocket science.
You implied that they lied about his academics and were really attempting to get out from under a contract. You're alleging fraud.
I implied no such things. His academics may have been awful for all I know. But that's not what kept him off campus, just like it hasn't prevented other kids from getting into Marquette. It certainly hasn't led to many kids getting cut loose at the last minute. If a scholarship were available, and Saunders were fully qualified - which he was - he would have been at Marquette.
Funny how Saunders' grades only became an issue when there wasn't a scholarship available to him.
BTW, the difference with Wade is that he had a poor GPA based on his early HS career, but was, in fact, earning good grades by his senior year--just not good enough to offset his bad start. Therefore, its reasonable to conclude that he constituted an acceptable academic risk.
Sure. That's the difference.
Playing ability had nothing to do with it.
Nor did the availability of a scholarship.
It was because of Dwyane's tremendous academic gains and classroom potential.
-
When they say that DJ was qualified academically, do they mean qualified under NCAA standards, or do they mean qualified for admission to Marquette? Do we know?
Didn't qualify per Marquette's "standards"....that info was released by the university after the drug bust and after MU decided to part ways.
Those standards, of course, move whichever way a school wants to let more talented kids in and push less talented kids out.
-
What?
Damian Saunders absolutely qualified academically. How the heck do you think he played for Duquense just a few months after getting the boot from Marquette.
Marquette used the nebulous excuse that even though Saunders met NCAA requirements, he did not meet the school's requirements. Which is odd, given that Dwayne Wade did not meet NCAA requirements, yet somehow was admitted to Marquette. Maybe MU's standards are on a sliding scale, based on one's NBA potential.
The arrest thing has been addressed elsewhere. Crean said the arrest had nothing to do with it. If it did, why did the university wait two months after learning of the arrest to deny his admission?
He didn't qualify for Marquette....sorry I need to be more clear with you. Here is the appropriated text that should help guide you through this complicated mine field.
"Unfortunately, Damian won't be able to be accepted at Marquette," said Crean. "His final grades and test scores were not at a level that was deemed appropriate for Marquette University. He's not through the (NCAA) Clearinghouse at this point. But this was more of a Marquette situation because of where he grades were at.
-
Didn't qualify per Marquette's "standards"....that info was released by the university after the drug bust and after MU decided to part ways.
Those standards, of course, move whichever way a school wants to let more talented kids in and push less talented kids out.
I was asking about DJ, not Saunders. When Newbill and his camp say he has fully qualified, are they talking NCAA or Marquette?
-
Didn't qualify per Marquette's "standards"....that info was released by the university after the drug bust and after MU decided to part ways.
Those standards, of course, move whichever way a school wants to let more talented kids in and push less talented kids out.
Or to deny a fully qualified guy (Saunders) admission when we overbook.
-
I was asking about DJ, not Saunders. When Newbill and his camp say he has fully qualified, are they talking NCAA or Marquette?
I think this can best be answered this way....if Wilson doesn't come along, he's qualified for MU. If Wilson comes along, suddenly he's not qualified for MU.
-
He didn't qualify for Marquette....sorry I need to be more clear with you. Here is the appropriated text that should help guide you through this complicated mine field.
"Unfortunately, Damian won't be able to be accepted at Marquette," said Crean. "His final grades and test scores were not at a level that was deemed appropriate for Marquette University. He's not through the (NCAA) Clearinghouse at this point. But this was more of a Marquette situation because of where he grades were at.
Big blue letters!?!?!?!?!?
Now I'm screwed!
Which is it, Chico's?
Earlier today, you told us Saudners was cut loose because he BROKE THE LAW.
Now it's because he didn't qualify under Marquette's standards.
The same standards by which the less academically credentialed Dwyane Wade, Lazar Hayward, Trevor Mbakwe and Yous Mbao did qualify.
Are you sure those standards don't shift conveniently depending on the player and scholarship situation?
Tell me, what would have happened if Tom Crean hadn't lucked out and the admissions office didn't discover - oh, heck, wouldn't you know it? - in late August that Saunders didn't meet their requirements?
The naivete in this thread is amusing.
Oh by the way, since Pennslyvania basketball coaches always, always, always know and tell the 100 percent truth, here's Duquense coach Ron Everhart on Damian Saunders and Marquette:
"He got caught in a numbers game. They signed one too many players," Everhart said. "He was the odd-man out."
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07323/835119-135.stm
-
I think this can best be answered this way....if Wilson doesn't come along, he's qualified for MU. If Wilson comes along, suddenly he's not qualified for MU.
OK, so here's a question for you -- if Dominique James had gone to the NBA, would Saunders have qualified?
-
Pakuni Rules!
Chicos is a complete hypocrite! He defends the Saunders and O'Brien decisions, yet when something similar happens with Buzz Williams, its not the way Marquette should be doing things. Speaks volumes.
-
He didn't qualify for Marquette....sorry I need to be more clear with you. Here is the appropriated text that should help guide you through this complicated mine field.
"Unfortunately, Damian won't be able to be accepted at Marquette," said Crean. "His final grades and test scores were not at a level that was deemed appropriate for Marquette University. He's not through the (NCAA) Clearinghouse at this point. But this was more of a Marquette situation because of where he grades were at.
And discovered in mid-August, days before he was to set foot on campus. Some due diligence there, unless he was needed summer school to graduate high school and didn't finish until August. While both situations suck for the kids, at least Newbill has a month and a half to find a new home instead of a week.
And can you please stop with the "look at me, I need attention, so I'll make everything big, colored, and underlined"?
-
Maybe you were stunned. Maybe Chicos was stunned. Maybe you think Rosebero should have been stunned. Maybe Chicos thinks Roseboro should have been stunned. But nothing in anything ROSEBERO said indicated he was stunned. Ergo, stating that he was stunned is indeed an unfair description.
We'll agree to disagree.
I don't think a kid would travel across the country and bust his butt in summer ball if he wasn't expecting to play for that team.
Carry on.
-
We'll agree to disagree.
I don't think a kid would travel across the country and bust his butt in summer ball if he wasn't expecting to play for that team.
Carry on.
I have no doubt Roseboro was expecting to play when he left PA, and he tried his best in summer ball, but it didn't take him long to realize he was in way over his head, in both talent level and work-out intensity.
-
I have no doubt Roseboro was expecting to play when he left PA, and he tried his best in summer ball, but it didn't take him long to realize he was in way over his head, in both talent level and work-out intensity.
Yea, I can go along with that, but a lot of frosh. are overwhelmed. Does that mean they should all expect to leave before the first day of classes?
-
You are absolutely beyond the pale, 84. Sanders was FULLY qualified by NCAA standards and was enrolled at Duquesne on full scholarship days after MU (who didn't have room for him due to oversigning) allegedly decided that he didn't pass academic muster. If you honestly believe thay he wouldn't have been admitted if we weren't "overbooked" you are naive beyond belief.
I think you're smart enough to realize that MU's own academic standards are a bit higher than the NCAA minimums. Whether or not Saunders was fully qualified under NCAA standards is irrelevant. He wasn't fully qualified under MU standards--a decision that was made in the timeline consistent with the last test schedule for the ACT and SAT.
I fully believe that Blackledge would have been the one off the team if Saunders had qualified. Trend had already missed a semester due to academics, MU was under no obligation to renew his scholarship, and Saunders was clearly the better player with far more upside potential. I absolutely believe he was on the team that year only because Saunders wasn't admitted.
If you wish to believe otherwise, that's your prerogative.
And Wade was prop 48 because of his ACT scores, so take the BS about why we took him somewhere else. We took him because he absolutely blew up his senior year and was viewed as a possible program changer.
You absolutely don't know what you're talking about.
The NCAA has a sliding ACT/Grade Point scale. The higher your GPA, the lower the acceptable ACT score.
Wade had a missed a qualifying ACT score by 1 point--if his GPA had not been hurt by the poor freshman & sophomore HS performance, he would have fully qualified as a freshman. Even his HS coach and HS counselors readily admitted that he got his academics in order proven by the fact that he was on the honor role by the end of his HS career.
-
Big blue letters!?!?!?!?!?
Now I'm screwed!
Which is it, Chico's?
Earlier today, you told us Saudners was cut loose because he BROKE THE LAW.
Now it's because he didn't qualify under Marquette's standards.
The same standards by which the less academically credentialed Dwyane Wade, Lazar Hayward, Trevor Mbakwe and Yous Mbao did qualify.
Are you sure those standards don't shift conveniently depending on the player and scholarship situation?
Dwayne Wade was NOT less academically credentialed. His HS coach and counselors all readily admitted that he was not focused early in HS, but had become an exceptional honor role student by his senior year.
His problem was that He lacked the necessary GPA because he screwed up his freshman year in HS.
For example, when you average a 1.0 GPA from freshman and sophomore years with a 3.0 junior and senior year GPA, it still averages to a 2.0 overall.
If you have a 2.0 GPA, you need a combined 86 on the ACT or 1010 on the SAT
If you have a 3.0 GPA, you need a combined 52 on the ACT or 620 on the SAT
Because Wade screwed up his first year or two in HS so his overall GPA was low and he needed a much higher ACT score.
As much as you won't like them, those are the facts. Wade was obviously a decent student by his senior year, but the hole he dug himself was too deep to dig out of.
Tell me, what would have happened if Tom Crean hadn't lucked out and the admissions office didn't discover - oh, heck, wouldn't you know it? - in late August that Saunders didn't meet their requirements?
The naivete in this thread is amusing.
First, do you honestly believe that losing Saunders was "lucking out"? He was clearly an outstanding player, and MU was right to give him every chance to prove he belonged.
If Saunders had qualified, Trend Blackledge would most likely have left the team, and it would have been so that he could focus on academics. He had already missed a semester due to low grades, and MU was under no obligation to renew his scholarship.
MU gave Saunders every opportunity to prove that he could cut it--they made the final decision only after the final ACT/SAT test scores were reported.
-
We'll agree to disagree.
I don't think a kid would travel across the country and bust his butt in summer ball if he wasn't expecting to play for that team.
Carry on.
Reality often intrudes on our hopes and expectations. When that occurs individuals react in many different ways. Some are stunned, some are angry, some are accepting and move on. Roseboro's OWN WORDS place him in that last category. But why believe him when we can have you and Chicos assign him emotions that YOU would feel.
Whether he's (falsely) accusing posters of making Stan Laws into Hitler (he's big on the Hitler comparisons - a sure sign of a weak argument), feigning outrage over things he previously accepted (see Damian Saunders) or just generally mischaracterizing people's words in order to advance an argument it's all basically the same BS. If you want to defend these practices it's okay by me but I find these kind of tactics borderline dishonest.
End of rant. Sorry if I dragged you in farther than was fair.
-
Reality often intrudes on our hopes and expectations. When that occurs individuals react in many different ways. Some are stunned, some are angry, some are accepting and move on. Roseboro's OWN WORDS place him in that last category. But why believe him when we can have you and Chicos assign him emotions that YOU would feel.
Whether he's (falsely) accusing posters of making Stan Laws into Hitler (he's big on the Hitler comparisons - a sure sign of a weak argument), feigning outrage over things he previously accepted (see Damian Saunders) or just generally mischaracterizing people's words in order to advance an argument it's all basically the same BS. If you want to defend these practices it's okay by me but I find these kind of tactics borderline dishonest.
End of rant. Sorry if I dragged you in farther than was fair.
Woah.
Yea, I think some of your rant is misplaced... but I'll leave that for you and Chico's to hash out.
My only point was, I don't think a kid would sign with MU, travel out to Milwaukee in the summer and bust his butt if he knew he would be asked/given the opportunity to transfer.
That's it.
-
Yea, I can go along with that, but a lot of frosh. are overwhelmed. Does that mean they should all expect to leave before the first day of classes?
His other option was to stay and ride the pine all year, transfer and sit out another year, and finally resume playing competitive basketball 2 years later.