if you doubted that he was totally upfront to DJ.
Heh.
No.
Quote from: reinko on June 30, 2010, 03:26:55 PM
No.
Come on, I know you want to. We're a Catholic school, it'll be just like confession. You'll feel a lot better afterward.
Did I miss a report detailing everything?
Quote from: GoldenWarrior on June 30, 2010, 03:28:31 PM
Did I miss a report detailing everything?
Check the IWB thread.
He has set a precedent here though hasn't he? Typically coaches don't offer in this situation, which i'm sure happens time and time again. I'm an unabashed Buzz supporter btw.
I'm not sure an apology is in order. No matter what the circumstances are, it still doesn't look good on the surface. It might have been better to just not get the NLI from Newbill, even if he knew the situation and still wanted to sign it.
Buzz is year three as a head coach. He went right to a big program. He is not going to be perfect. He really did not do anything technically wrong, but maybe he could have handled it with more grace.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on June 30, 2010, 03:42:27 PM
Buzz is year three as a head coach. He went right to a big program. He is not going to be perfect. He really did not do anything technically wrong, but maybe he could have handled it with more grace.
Does anyone know the rules with speaking to a player signed on elsewhere? I'm wondering if Buzz violated NCAA ragulation with Wilson... certainly seems they were in communication prior to Wilson receiving his freedom from the Ducks...
you can be upfront and still handle things poorly. just because you are honest about poor behavior doesn't exempt you from blame for it. LOIs are meant to carry finality, and are meant to publicly express the commitment the player and the team have to each other. thats why other teams can't recruit the player and why the NCAA takes signing LOIs so seriously and forces the team to allow players out of them when they switch coaches, rather than just the NCAA overriding the LOI. it is the equivalent of an NCAA BB marriage, which the parties need to annul themselves.
so when Buzz allowed DJ to sign, even if he was upfront with him, he took away DJs power while preserving his own. DJ was no longer capable of talking with other teams and was at the complete mercy of MUs ability to recruit over him. however he was not able to develop a contingency plan. it seems to me like DJ's love and commitment to MU was used against him. he wanted so badly to come to MU that he was allowed to sign while MU continued going to the singles bars. just because MU came home every night and admitted they were trying to get lucky doesn't make it right when DJ is doing everything you could hope for.
Quote from: MUBurrow on June 30, 2010, 04:14:02 PM
you can be upfront and still handle things poorly. just because you are honest about poor behavior doesn't exempt you from blame for it. LOIs are meant to carry finality, and are meant to publicly express the commitment the player and the team have to each other. thats why other teams can't recruit the player and why the NCAA takes signing LOIs so seriously and forces the team to allow players out of them when they switch coaches, rather than just the NCAA overriding the LOI. it is the equivalent of an NCAA BB marriage, which the parties need to annul themselves.
so when Buzz allowed DJ to sign, even if he was upfront with him, he took away DJs power while preserving his own. DJ was no longer capable of talking with other teams and was at the complete mercy of MUs ability to recruit over him. however he was not able to develop a contingency plan. it seems to me like DJ's love and commitment to MU was used against him. he wanted so badly to come to MU that he was allowed to sign while MU continued going to the singles bars. just because MU came home every night and admitted they were trying to get lucky doesn't make it right when DJ is doing everything you could hope for.
What DJ got out of signing a LOI: A chance to play at MU this year (assuming we didn't sign a 3/4/5) and a promise that he could go to prep school and be part of our next recruiting class.
DJ had other scholarship offers. He could have taken them. He thought his one scholarship offer from a high major program was worth the shot. There's nothing wrong with that.
What MU got out of signing a LOI: A back-up plan for this year (in case we didn't sign a 3/4/5) and a solid recruit for our next recruiting class. Plus, knowledge that he couldn't talk to other teams.
Since we released him from his LOI, he can now do that and sign with a team for next year late . . . or go to prep school and go elsewhere.
He's not that highly regarded of a recruit and a year in prep school (especially with a chip on his shoulder) may end up serving him well and he may end up with offers from many great schools.
Edit: What CrazyEcho said ^^
The IWB thread has everything? Really?
So if something comes out of the Newbill camp in a few days like it did with the Roseboro camp, it should just be ignored?
I'll ask again as it doesn't seem to get answered. WHY did we have this kid sign a NLI if he wasn't going to be coming here?
I have a very hard time believing we told this kid "sure, sign a NLI but if another, better prospect comes along we're going to cut you". What recruit on earth would go for that?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 30, 2010, 04:25:49 PM
I'll ask again as it doesn't seem to get answered. WHY did we have this kid sign a NLI if he wasn't going to be coming here?
I have a very hard time believing we told this kid "sure, sign a NLI but if another, better prospect comes along we're going to cut you". What recruit on earth would go for that?
1st paragraph: I think there were benefits to both sides (see my post above).
2nd paragraph: One who only has one high-major offer. He decided that the chance of going to Marquette discounted by the probability that we'd find a suitable 3/4/5 was worth the risk. Plus, we'd take him in next year's class if he goes to prep school.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 30, 2010, 04:25:49 PM
The IWB thread has everything? Really?
So if something comes out of the Newbill camp in a few days like it did with the Roseboro camp, it should just be ignored?
I'll ask again as it doesn't seem to get answered. WHY did we have this kid sign a NLI if he wasn't going to be coming here?
I have a very hard time believing we told this kid "sure, sign a NLI but if another, better prospect comes along we're going to cut you". What recruit on earth would go for that?
Perhaps you'll apologize after evaluating the situation for another three to five years.
So, given all we know at this point - including prior public statements that a member of the recruiting class would not be coming to MU this year - are you suggesting that Phillycoach is the more reliable source here than IWB?
Quote from: CrazyEcho on June 30, 2010, 03:24:13 PM
if you doubted that he was totally upfront to DJ.
I think he was totally upfront with DJ, but he was not totally upfront with us. He should have said all along that the plans were for DJ to go to prep school to develope his game instead of implying a player is going to prep school. Buzz should have made it clear to us when Newbill signed. We been speculating for two months who had grade problems, when apparently nobody did.
this is such a slippery slope though, and its only okay if you take a lackadaisical approach toward LOIs. for instance, what if Buzz tells DJ he will always be recruiting over him? so if Jamil doesn't come along and next year Buzz finds someone else that is too good to pass up, is it okay if he lets DJ go then?
If you say no, because he is already on the team - the whole point of an LOI is to put a player onto the team. Just because a bunch of time has passed and the player is seemingly entrenched doesn't make that less ethical when the signed LOI has the purpose of publicly declaring your team.
Also if you say no - are you okay with Buzz committing then to a kid he doesn't think is Big East material for four years? The whole point of the prep school thing is to see what comes of him, not to assure him a spot next year. DJ would have been competing with whoever Buzz finds for those schollies too. Its also not like DJ would magically be a Big East player after sitting on our bench for a year had Jamil not come along. But if you draw the line after a year of being on the team, that means that either a) Buzz would have locked up a four year scholarship with a non Big East player or b) Buzzcut him. Neither are heartwarming options.
Quote from: bilsu on June 30, 2010, 04:37:00 PM
I think he was totally upfront with DJ, but he was not totally upfront with us. He should have said all along that the plans were for DJ to go to prep school to develope his game instead of implying a player is going to prep school. Buzz should have made it clear to us when Newbill signed. We been speculating for two months who had grade problems, when apparently nobody did.
I think you grossly over-estimate the importance of "us." Buzz doesn't owe us anything.
Quote from: CrazyEcho on June 30, 2010, 04:39:55 PM
I think you grossly over-estimate the importance of "us." Buzz doesn't owe us anything.
I think Buzz owes the fans everything. We are the people buying the tickets and donating to the Blue & Gold fund.
Quote from: bilsu on June 30, 2010, 04:42:14 PM
I think Buzz owes the fans everything. We are the people buying the tickets and donating to the Blue & Gold fund.
Well, then you can go ahead and continue to be shocked/outraged when you're not privy to inside information on recruiting and other major athletic department decisions.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 30, 2010, 04:25:49 PM
So if something comes out of the Newbill camp in a few days like it did with the Roseboro camp, it should just be ignored?
You've mentioned this several times but seem to ignore what actually came out of Roseboro's mouth when he left.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/54402887.html (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/54402887.html)
Do you believe the people in his "camp" over him? Do you think Rosiak misquoted him? Do you think Brett was just being nice?
I think he left, because he felt like he was not going to play. The funny part about it is Maymon left, Otule got injured and so did Mbao. He may have actually played if he had stayed.
Quote from: jmayer1 on June 30, 2010, 04:48:18 PM
You've mentioned this several times but seem to ignore what actually came out of Roseboro's mouth when he left.
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/54402887.html (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/54402887.html)
Do you believe the people in his "camp" over him? Do you think Rosiak misquoted him? Do you think Brett was just being nice?
Let's reverse the questions. Do you believe Roseboro's coaches were misquoted? Do you believe Roseboro's coaches were lying? Do you believe that Roseboro probably wanted to just put it to bed and not deal with anymore?
http://blog.northstarbball.com/2009/08/21/major-news-brett-roseboro-leaving-marquette.aspx
http://www.nbebasketball.com/w3/2009-0822/busy-week-at-marquette/
By the way, remarkably similar stories if you read the quotes from Roseboro's coach and Phillycoach.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 30, 2010, 05:00:59 PM
Let's reverse the questions. Do you believe Roseboro's coaches were misquoted? Do you believe Roseboro's coaches were lying? Do you believe that Roseboro probably wanted to just put it to bed and not deal with anymore?
http://blog.northstarbball.com/2009/08/21/major-news-brett-roseboro-leaving-marquette.aspx
http://www.nbebasketball.com/w3/2009-0822/busy-week-at-marquette/
By the way, remarkably similar stories if you read the quotes from Roseboro's coach and Phillycoach.
We thought Roseboro was good enough to play at Marquette, so we offered him a scholarship. He thought he was good enough to play at Marquette, so he accepted the scholarship. He turned out not to be good, so we told him that if he stayed at Marquette, he wasn't going to play. He decided to go somewhere where he would get minutes.
The quotes by Roseboro and his coaches suggest that is exactly what happened. Besides the fact that I wish we would perfectly assess every recruit, I don't see how MU/Buzz did anything wrong?
Quote from: bilsu on June 30, 2010, 04:42:14 PM
I think Buzz owes the fans everything. We are the people buying the tickets and donating to the Blue & Gold fund.
He owes the university, and by extension the people that support it, a successful and clean college basketball program.
He does not owe us a detailed explanation of his every recruiting/coaching move and decision. It would be nice to get one under most circumstances, but it's not "owed."
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 30, 2010, 05:00:59 PM
Let's reverse the questions. Do you believe Roseboro's coaches were misquoted? Do you believe Roseboro's coaches were lying? Do you believe that Roseboro probably wanted to just put it to bed and not deal with anymore?
http://blog.northstarbball.com/2009/08/21/major-news-brett-roseboro-leaving-marquette.aspx
http://www.nbebasketball.com/w3/2009-0822/busy-week-at-marquette/
By the way, remarkably similar stories if you read the quotes from Roseboro's coach and Phillycoach.
The easiest way to tell if someone can't/doesn't want to answer a questions is if they answer said question with another question.
I read the links you posted (which had the exact same quotes). I don't think the coach was misquoted. I think he felt MU made it clear that Roseboro was prolly not going to play a lot his freshman year, if ever. Brett made a decision to leave based on that advice, and from his experiences during open gyms, to find a school where he might be able to better to compete, despite the fact that he had a guaranteed scholarship
What part of the following quote from Roseboro throws up a red flag?
"At first, obviously I'm going to struggle," he said. "I came in, I think I was overwhelmed a little bit. But I progressed, I got better and all that. The usual. But I just knew I wasn't going to get playing time, and it was made obvious to me. I wanted to go somewhere where I could make an impact right away, maybe a level down. Right now I'm looking at some A-10 schools.
"I love the guys, the coaches. The coaches were fine. I just had to look out for my future and be happy and all of that."
When Roseboro was asked if he regretted deciding to sign with MU initially, he answered quickly.
"No, because it was an opportunity that I had to take to see where I was at," he said. "If I didn't do this, then I wouldn't have known. I think I can play at that level – just not right now."
Imperfect world Chico's. Give it a concerned glance but there is no reason to dwell on this. Hopefully it won't be a habitual thing but it's all in the game.
Buzz is doing what it takes to build a monster and I have no reason to think he's done anything that would require any outrage on my part.
Trading up to a potential star player means more to this school than phillycoach's opinion. Especially if we remain a leader for next year.
Quote from: CrazyEcho on June 30, 2010, 05:07:01 PM
We thought Roseboro was good enough to play at Marquette, so we offered him a scholarship. He thought he was good enough to play at Marquette, so he accepted the scholarship. He turned out not to be good, so we told him that if he stayed at Marquette, he wasn't going to play. He decided to go somewhere where he would get minutes.
The quotes by Roseboro and his coaches suggest that is exactly what happened. Besides the fact that I wish we would perfectly assess every recruit, I don't see how MU/Buzz did anything wrong?
Correct me if this wrong, here are the similarities I see
MU offers scholarship to player
Player accepts scholarship, ready to play at MU
MU staff sours on player and\or better option becomes available and player is told to go elsewhere
Player is surprised \ caught off guard at late in the game cutting (per Roseboro's coaches and a Newbill coach)
I'm old school guys, it's that simple. We made a commitment, we should stand by the commitment. That's what COMMITMENTS are for. If after one year it's not working out, then that's a different story since a scholarship is a one year RENEWABLE offer.
Now, I get the "imperfect" world argument, it's the same one that Kentucky, Memphis and other programs play. I was hoping we weren't going down that path and that a commitment still meant something.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 30, 2010, 06:45:52 PM
I'm old school guys, it's that simple. We made a commitment, we should stand by the commitment. That's what COMMITMENTS are for. If after one year it's not working out, then that's a different story since a scholarship is a one year RENEWABLE offer.
There are commitments, and then there are commitments.
If, as IWB says, the commitment was contingent on certain other events occurring, or not occurring - and both parties knew and agreed to that - then it's kind of nonsense to complain that the kid somehow was mistreated. He knew what he was getting into when he signed the LOI.
If IWB's account is false, then the kid got hosed.
Of course, there appear to be several pieces of evidence supporting IWB's account:
- reports from several weeks ago that one incoming recruit would not be coming to campus
- the fact DJ never formally turned in his application
- the fact DJ never signed up for the Pro Am
- the fact DJ never came to campus
Now, perhaps that all means nothing, but certainly it's circumstantial evidence that tends to back what IWB is saying, don't you think?
I love Buzz...think he's the best thing to happen to MU basketball since DWade was here...but I agree with Chicos. This just doesn't seem like the kind of thing I want the Warriors doing. I do trust Buzz, by the way.
Let's not forget, with all due respect to IWB because I know he does his due diligence, he's really kind of a mouthpiece for MU. Less so than Dodds, but still a mouthpiece.
I've read this board since the beginning... sometimes holding my nose, but this is it... you're not good for MU BB... what does the program have to do to prove it is above board. Chicos, what did MU do while you were here that would lead you to believe we are a Memphis type program... what has Buzz done to make you think so... I'm proud of our program and Buzz, but not of this board as a representative of my university... ciao
Quote from: CrazyEcho on June 30, 2010, 04:29:34 PM
1st paragraph: I think there were benefits to both sides (see my post above).
2nd paragraph: One who only has one high-major offer. He decided that the chance of going to Marquette discounted by the probability that we'd find a suitable 3/4/5 was worth the risk. Plus, we'd take him in next year's class if he goes to prep school.
Was there a promise that if DJ went to prep school for a year, he'd have a Marquette scholarship waiting for him next year?
Or was it, DJ we want you to go to prep school for a year and only if you play well, then a scholarship will be waiting for you next year?
Is there any confirmation that for sure Newbill was offered the option to go to prep school, but he passed on going to prep school and that's why he was released from his LOI?
That's what i can't seem to fully understand. It sounds like from the Newbill camp that Marquette/Buzz no longer even seemed interested in DJ going to prep school for a year and then giving him a spot on the team for the following year.
What's the actual story? Did Buzz tell DJ he still had his scholarship to Marquette, but first he
had to attend prep school for a year? Then if DJ did that, there for sure would be a spot for him next year? Newbill then balked at this? Is this the Marquette side of this?
Remember a few things .. you've heard MU's side, through IWB. And I have zero doubt that what IWB has recounted is what was given to him by someone on staff.
Indeed, it's MU's side of the story, and "if" there is any, let's say, questionable actions by MU, the argument has been framed to put MU in the best possible light. (Duh.)
Naturally, the same can be said about Phillycoach's commentary, although his story is certainly more raw.
Draw your own conclusions.
And here is Rivals side of the story.
"Did Marquette put winning before ethics by cutting D.J. Newbill?"
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Did-Marquette-put-winning-before-ethics-by-cutti?urn=ncaab,252690&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Buzz screwed up!!!
Boy, I hope no one sees that Rivals story.
Quote from: bilsu on June 30, 2010, 04:42:14 PM
I think Buzz owes the fans everything. We are the people buying the tickets and donating to the Blue & Gold fund.
That's laughable. Buzz owes us nothing other than legally and ethically putting together a winning basketball program.
Quote from: mufanatic on June 30, 2010, 09:23:05 PM
And here is Rivals side of the story.
"Did Marquette put winning before ethics by cutting D.J. Newbill?"
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Did-Marquette-put-winning-before-ethics-by-cutti?urn=ncaab,252690&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Buzz screwed up!!!
If this is what is going to happen, Buzz needs to get this side of the story out there if he can under NCAA rules.