MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: ChicosBailBonds on May 10, 2010, 05:04:34 PM
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http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-articles-worst_paying_college_degrees-1263
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Odd, in an apparent editing mistake they left "Forum moderator" off the list :)
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in addition to being the worst paying, forum moderator is also the most thankless.
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I really thought I would have found Romance Languages and Art History at the top (Bottom) of the list. Kind of surprised with Spanish and Education.
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I really thought I would have found Romance Languages and Art History at the top (Bottom) of the list. Kind of surprised with Spanish and Education.
For the life of me I never understood why someone would go to a private school to get a degree in education. So much cost and loans for a job that has a small financial return. You'll spend way too many years of your life to pay that off.
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Sigh Chicos.
Weird, my dad said the same thing to me in 1999. As an educator, MU taught me to critically think about social issues, asses student needs in a fair way, and treat my students with respect and dignity. Not trying to be lame, but those lessons make me a stronger educator.
MU also taught me the importance of serving ones community, setting me up to volunteer teach for a few years after school in low-income neighborhoods.
So yeah, my 20K in loans was "worth it", at least for me ;)
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Sigh Chicos.
Weird, my dad said the same thing to me in 1999. As an educator, MU taught me to critically think about social issues, asses student needs in a fair way, and treat my students with respect and dignity. Not trying to be lame, but those lessons make me a stronger educator.
MU also taught me the importance of serving ones community, setting me up to volunteer teach for a few years after school in low-income neighborhoods.
So yeah, my 20K in loans was "worth it", at least for me ;)
I totally agree. One of my daughters has her masters in social work and works (for not much money) with people who are both poor and mentally challenged. It's never occured to me (or her) that the extra cost of St Louis U wasn't worth it.
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Sigh Chicos.
Weird, my dad said the same thing to me in 1999. As an educator, MU taught me to critically think about social issues, asses student needs in a fair way, and treat my students with respect and dignity. Not trying to be lame, but those lessons make me a stronger educator.
MU also taught me the importance of serving ones community, setting me up to volunteer teach for a few years after school in low-income neighborhoods.
So yeah, my 20K in loans was "worth it", at least for me ;)
I'm very happy it worked for you. I'm saying for me, I never understood the long term ROI on it. I'd rather if someone is going to come out of school with $80K in debt, that they have a chance to climb out of it in a reasonable time period. I'm glad it worked out for you and it sounds like the debt wasn't that bad. In today's world at today's cost, it's a mountain of debt load.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Going-to-College?-Figure-Out-Your-ROI-First&id=3767442
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Maybe it is because I am in the field but does anyone find it odd that Education is in the top 10 of this list.
I mean, I'm not surprised, because I know what I make, but holy hell, talk about importance of the field coupled with not paying the field
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Maybe it is because I am in the field but does anyone find it odd that Education is in the top 10 of this list.
I mean, I'm not surprised, because I know what I make, but holy hell, talk about importance of the field coupled with not paying the field
I am anticipating this thread spiraling out of control.
As the son of two life long educators, I couldn't agree with you more.
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Alright, this needs to be said, at the risk of being hissed off the board.
The total compensation of an educator is really not that bad. (Salary, generous benefits, retirement at a young age, the ability to double dip on your pension)
Based on the number of applicants for each job, I think that educators know that too.
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Alright, this needs to be said, at the risk of being hissed off the board.
The total compensation of an educator is really not that bad. (Salary, generous benefits, retirement at a young age, the ability to double dip on your pension)
Based on the number of applicants for each job, I think that educators know that too.
+1
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It's good to know that a mid-career theology major makes about the same income as my prosecutor wife.
Now if only she had theology major student debt instead of lawyer student debt.
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I'm surprised such rewarding majors as Women's Studies or "Ethnic Studies" aren't on the list. Can't think there is much call for the angry victim.
I also agree that teacher's salaryies may be low because there is a plurality of candidates. I am a big proponent of paying well for teacher's performance but exceptional teachers are few and far between in So Cal and the dress code is on par with the janitorial staff.
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Alright, this needs to be said, at the risk of being hissed off the board.
The total compensation of an educator is really not that bad. (Salary, generous benefits, retirement at a young age, the ability to double dip on your pension)
Based on the number of applicants for each job, I think that educators know that too.
total crap. When my parents got HOME from work, they usually had papers to correct, tests to grade, and this after working an 8 hour day. Nevermind the 'summer off' fallacy. Teachers have to continuously take classes to keep their certification. Additionally, my mother (a superintendant) had to attend school board meetings, and CESA meetings.
I will concede that the benefits are great as a teacher, but the unions have worked hard for decades for those benefits.
As for retirement at a young age, my parents invested really well, and were able to retire around age 58. That is early by a couple of years. I had teachers at my high school who didn't retire until they were in their 60s. I'm not sure what 'average' is, but 60 can't be too early.
I also agree that teacher's salaryies may be low because there is a plurality of candidates. I am a big proponent of paying well for teacher's performance but exceptional teachers are few and far between in So Cal and the dress code is on par with the janitorial staff.
I couldn't agree more, and neither could my parents. My father wore a shirt and tie every day teaching public school, and my mother wore dress clothes everyday as well. I think that when students see teachers dressing like bums they don't have the respect that they should for the teachers. This is only the fault of the teachers and the districts that allow them to get away with it.
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I had a conference with my son's Junior High Science teacher and when he entered the room I actually thought he was there to empty the wastebasket! Faded jeans and a T-shirt so old it should have been in the rag bin. When I think of a teacher I am reminded of John Pick who taught Englihs Lit at MU. he wore a jacket and tie to every class and the rumour was it was never the same outfit
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I had a conference with my son's Junior High Science teacher and when he entered the room I actually thought he was there to empty the wastebasket! Faded jeans and a T-shirt so old it should have been in the rag bin. When I think of a teacher I am reminded of John Pick who taught Englihs Lit at MU. he wore a jacket and tie to every class and the rumour was it was never the same outfit
And the rubber chicken around is neck was priceless when discussing the albatross in "The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner."
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total crap. When my parents got HOME from work, they usually had papers to correct, tests to grade, and this after working an 8 hour day. Nevermind the 'summer off' fallacy. Teachers have to continuously take classes to keep their certification. Additionally, my mother (a superintendant) had to attend school board meetings, and CESA meetings.
I will concede that the benefits are great as a teacher, but the unions have worked hard for decades for those benefits.
As for retirement at a young age, my parents invested really well, and were able to retire around age 58. That is early by a couple of years. I had teachers at my high school who didn't retire until they were in their 60s. I'm not sure what 'average' is, but 60 can't be too early.
I'm in my first real job, age 25. Most of the people I've met here, at a very legitimate large corporate, expect that age 65 is the absolute earliest they could retire. I know in Wisconsin teachers can retire with full benefits and salary for 10 years at age 55. Pretty sweet deal.
My guess is also that the number of kids a couple has, has a great effect on the age of retirement.
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Alright, this needs to be said, at the risk of being hissed off the board.
The total compensation of an educator is really not that bad. (Salary, generous benefits, retirement at a young age, the ability to double dip on your pension)
Based on the number of applicants for each job, I think that educators know that too.
+1
Disregard whatever hards said. As soon as he said "the unions worked hard" he ruined his argument.
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+1
Disregard whatever hards said. As soon as he said "the unions worked hard" he ruined his argument.
lol Ari get a clue.
This forum isn't supposed to be about politics, and that is why politics is banned here. Yet a few people here routinely bring them up. Namely, you, MU-rara, and willie warrior.
If you want to have a polite political discussion rather than tossing barbs feel free to PM me rather than injecting it into your posts.
Simply because you are anti-union (based on your ideology's, rather than any intelligible reason, my guess) does not mean that teachers unions didn't fight hard for their benefits.
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I couldn't agree more, and neither could my parents. My father wore a shirt and tie every day teaching public school, and my mother wore dress clothes everyday as well. I think that when students see teachers dressing like bums they don't have the respect that they should for the teachers. This is only the fault of the teachers and the districts that allow them to get away with it.
I had teachers at my HS (one of the top 2-3 public HS in WI) that would wear windpants almost everyday. Even at 14-15 I thought they dressed like completely unprofessional idiots. Now, going to grad school, I can't imagine what I would think if a professor came in dressed like that. They made Bob Huggins look stylish.
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I had teachers at my HS (one of the top 2-3 public HS in WI) that would wear windpants almost everyday. Even at 14-15 I thought they dressed like completely unprofessional idiots. Now, going to grad school, I can't imagine what I would think if a professor came in dressed like that. They made Bob Huggins look stylish.
Out of curiosity, which public high schools would you consider to be the "top 3" in Wisconsin? I have no real metric, but my guess would be:
Madison West
Waukesha West
Nicolet
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Out of curiosity, which public high schools would you consider to be the "top 3" in Wisconsin? I have no real metric, but my guess would be:
Madison West
Waukesha West
Nicolet
I heard Middleton is also up there.
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lol Ari get a clue.
This forum isn't supposed to be about politics, and that is why politics is banned here. Yet a few people here routinely bring them up. Namely, you, MU-rara, and willie warrior.
If you want to have a polite political discussion rather than tossing barbs feel free to PM me rather than injecting it into your posts.
Simply because you are anti-union (based on your ideology's, rather than any intelligible reason, my guess) does not mean that teachers unions didn't fight hard for their benefits.
This could turn into an interesting discussion (i.e., speak now before the thread gets locked). I have great respect for good teachers. I had many and I wish they were better compensated. I have little respect for teachers' unions. You mentioned that the unions worked hard for the benefits, and that might be true. I work hard to pay for those benefits. One thing I think was interesting, though, was your comment that some teachers dress poorly because the district lets them get away with it. That's undoubtedly true, but I'll go ahead and lay much of the blame of that on the unions. In many places (I can't speak for the district where your parents work because I don't know where that is) the unions work very hard to protect mediocre (and worse) teachers. I have been personally involved in grievance arbitrations where the union fought tooth and nail for teachers that absolutely deserved to be fired. You can debate me all you like, but I know what I'm talking about (at least for the districts I am familiar with). Also, many of the same districts that you suggest are rolling over and allowing poor teachers to get away with things are rolling over in negotiations with the union and letting them have whatever they want -- the union isn't necessarily having to work terribly hard to get the benefits. Clearly the fault is with both parties.
My community has very good schools. Historically, it has never failed to pass a levy for the schools. Last year our levy failed because the board came to the community asking for a large increase before the next round of negotiations with the union because they anticipated increases in the CBA. The voters in our community suggested that before they come to us for more money to pay for a future union contract, perhaps they should "strap on a set" and seek concessions from the union. We'll see how things go.
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This could turn into an interesting discussion (i.e., speak now before the thread gets locked). I have great respect for good teachers. I had many and I wish they were better compensated. I have little respect for teachers' unions. You mentioned that the unions worked hard for the benefits, and that might be true. I work hard to pay for those benefits. One thing I think was interesting, though, was your comment that some teachers dress poorly because the district lets them get away with it. That's undoubtedly true, but I'll go ahead and lay much of the blame of that on the unions. In many places (I can't speak for the district where your parents work because I don't know where that is) the unions work very hard to protect mediocre (and worse) teachers. I have been personally involved in grievance arbitrations where the union fought tooth and nail for teachers that absolutely deserved to be fired. You can debate me all you like, but I know what I'm talking about (at least for the districts I am familiar with). Also, many of the same districts that you suggest are rolling over and allowing poor teachers to get away with things are rolling over in negotiations with the union and letting them have whatever they want -- the union isn't necessarily having to work terribly hard to get the benefits. Clearly the fault is with both parties.
My community has very good schools. Historically, it has never failed to pass a levy for the schools. Last year our levy failed because the board came to the community asking for a large increase before the next round of negotiations with the union because they anticipated increases in the CBA. The voters in our community suggested that before they come to us for more money to pay for a future union contract, perhaps they should "strap on a set" and seek concessions from the union. We'll see how things go.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not a full backer 100% of teachers unions. I would side with you here. I know my parents (my mother specifically) had to deal with bad teachers and the unions that back them. I was merely stating that the unions worked hard for the benefits. If the benefits weren't so good, we would have to pay teachers more or we would have (probably, speculation here) worse teachers.
Another thing I have a serious problem with is political activism of unions. While I understand they are simply trying to further the union, some people have a serious problem with unions giving money to campaigns since not everyone in the union has the same political ideology. Why should one teacher be forced to give up their money to support candidates who don't share their political ideology? Heck why should any union member have to?!? But I guess this is a discussion for another day.
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Whitefish Bay
Shorewood
Yeah, it's funny how a 10-20-30 years ago, employers and employees could make the deal for lower wages, higher benefits.
Now that health care costs (in particular) are so high and climbing, employers would rather back off on those, give more in salary.
My wife taught for 10 years, made in the $50s, but her benefits were way over $30k per year -- health insurance alone was $23k for a family policy, of which the teacher pays 8%.
MPS's benefit rate is like 77% of every salary dollar.
So .. if "total compensation package" were counted, I think teachers would not be in the top 10 of that list.
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absolutely.
WEA insurance is unbeatable.
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Which is why the unions should dump WEAC insurance. They are under salaried, over insured.
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absolutely.
WEA insurance is unbeatable.
Hards,
I have never started a political argument, but I find it hard to let some "stuff" go by unanswered. The idea that total compensation to teachers is low is one of those fallacies.
I'm guessing that WEA insurance profits fund much of the political activism that you don't like.
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Hards,
I have never started a political argument, but I find it hard to let some "stuff" go by unanswered. The idea that total compensation to teachers is low is one of those fallacies.
I'm guessing that WEA insurance profits fund much of the political activism that you don't like.
I guess we will just have to disagree. If need be I am sure I can go back through threads and find things you have said that are politically provocative. I don't really wish to, but I would bet it wouldn't be very hard. ;) Either way, I am just tired of the random political stuff that people throw around. Either it is allowed, or its not.
I also find it hard to let 'stuff' go by unanswered... clearly.
Additionally, I am sure that WEA insurance profits fund that activism. I was only stating that WEA insurance is unbeatable because it is. It is probably the best insurance that I can think of. If I was a teacher I would be ticked pink! Having said that, I am not endorsing WEA insurance or their use of funds for politics.
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Wow,
This thread could become a powder keg.
A few thoughts:
My mother retired is a WI elementary teach at age 53...gets a full pension and health coverage, how many other professions/employers outside of law enforcement and government still offer that type of retirement benefit?
The long hours during the day...I got it, but again, based on the total days worked teachers get compensated just fine, IMO. People who work the entire calendar year also work longer than an 8 hour work days so I don't see how stating that teachers work long days makes a strong argument. Most professionals work long days. however, most companies only offer 7-9 holidays plus 10-20 days vacation per year...not 120 days off per year.
Next point: what is our ROI with regards to education? We are currently spending more per student than most European countries and our students perform worse in most areas. The solution is spend more money? I think this is where Unions have a negative influence but I operate in a right to work area of the US so I'll keep my union thoughts/experiences to myself.
Lastly, this really has no scientific proof but many of my peers from High School that weren't very smart or driven ended up becoming teachers...just throwing that out there.
My mom was a teacher, I respected all my teachers growing up, and I think it is an honorable and important profession but I don't think they are under-compensated.
Let the grilling begin.
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Out of curiosity, which public high schools would you consider to be the "top 3" in Wisconsin? I have no real metric, but my guess would be:
Madison West
Waukesha West
Nicolet
I went to Homestead. I never knew Waukesha West to be that good. Arrowhead would have to be in the debate based on size and subsequent funding alone.
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Wow,
This thread could become a powder keg.
So you provide some matches... Way to go.
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I'd agree that we would have to (and should) pay some teachers more (science, math, early elementary) but a lot of teachers could be had for a lot less (music, Phys Ed, Art, and probably History and English, etc). The problems with the union contracts are that pay is based on longevity and formal education rather than student performance and improvement metrics.
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I went to Homestead. I never knew Waukesha West to be that good. Arrowhead would have to be in the debate based on size and subsequent funding alone.
Homestead makes sense . . . I have no idea how anyone would actually rank public high schools in Wisconsin, but Homestead is certainly one of the most well-funded.
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Like most, my teachers ran the gamut from incompetent to inspirational. The really good ones will always be undercompensated while those at or near the bottom are stealing money. This will never change as long as tenure is so easy to get and compensation is based on longevity rather than ability.
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total crap. When my parents got HOME from work, they usually had papers to correct, tests to grade, and this after working an 8 hour day. Nevermind the 'summer off' fallacy. Teachers have to continuously take classes to keep their certification. Additionally, my mother (a superintendant) had to attend school board meetings, and CESA meetings.
This is total crap. Lets say teachers work from 8 to 4, an 8 hour day. Most teachers get about 45 min for lunch, and an additional hour for "planning period" which most teachers use as an extended lunch. This brings us to about a six hour work day. In addition, most teachers do take summers off, roughly three weeks for Christmas holiday off, spring break off, fall break off, easter holiday off, and various other holidays/teacher inservice days.
Compare this to almost any other profession. I'll take nursing, since my mom is a nurse. She works 10 hour days, she commonly doesn't have time for a lunch break of any sort, and she almost never gets home on time which usually results in a 11-12 hour work day; in addition to working holidays, nights, weekends, summers. Her total yearly compensation is probably very similar to that of an experienced teacher.
Now, I am not trying to bash your parents in any way. I am simply taking a look at the "average" teacher. I admit I have known some teachers who work their asses off, and work just as much time, if not more, as other professions. These teachers certainly deserve everything they get plus more. But on average, teachers do have it pretty easy.
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Now, I am not trying to bash your parents in any way. I am simply taking a look at the "average" teacher. I admit I have known some teachers who work their asses off, and work just as much time, if not more, as other professions. These teachers certainly deserve everything they get plus more. But on average, teachers do have it pretty easy.
To be fair, it should be said that there are people halfassing it in all professions. There are bad/lazy doctors, lawyers, teachers, corporate lemmings, etc.
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To be fair, it should be said that there are people halfassing it in all professions. There are bad/lazy doctors, lawyers, teachers, corporate lemmings, etc.
True, but you don't have to send your kids to the bad/lazy doctor, etc. Not as many choices in education. Do you move or change schools each time one of your kids has a bad teacher?
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total crap. When my parents got HOME from work, they usually had papers to correct, tests to grade, and this after working an 8 hour day. Nevermind the 'summer off' fallacy. Teachers have to continuously take classes to keep their certification. Additionally, my mother (a superintendant) had to attend school board meetings, and CESA meetings.
I will concede that the benefits are great as a teacher, but the unions have worked hard for decades for those benefits.
As for retirement at a young age, my parents invested really well, and were able to retire around age 58. That is early by a couple of years. I had teachers at my high school who didn't retire until they were in their 60s. I'm not sure what 'average' is, but 60 can't be too early.
I couldn't agree more, and neither could my parents. My father wore a shirt and tie every day teaching public school, and my mother wore dress clothes everyday as well. I think that when students see teachers dressing like bums they don't have the respect that they should for the teachers. This is only the fault of the teachers and the districts that allow them to get away with it.
Mom was a teacher for 40+ years, dad was a professor before going into the private sector. Mom definitely graded papers when she got home, typically while watching tv. ;D Lesson planning as well, though after a number of years they merely needed to be tweaked. Great teacher, won the So. Cal teacher of the year and similar type award in Colorado a number of years ago....even got her award presented to her by Presidential nominee, John Kerry.
Mom had Summers off, she had a full certification in California that was "grandfathered" in for life. She did take occasional classes, but for the most part the Summer was downtime for her.
The benefits are incredible so I don't go for the perception on how under appreciated the profession in. Teachers have a tough job, but they also are rewarded handsomely with pensions that 95% of private sector employees would kill for.
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Out of curiosity, which public high schools would you consider to be the "top 3" in Wisconsin? I have no real metric, but my guess would be:
Madison West
Waukesha West
Nicolet
Also never heard of Waukesha West being among top high schools. Below are the top median ACT scores of public schools in WI from 2007.
Kohler Kohler High 26.15
Shorewood Shorewood High 25.83
Madison Metropolitan West High 25.71
Whitefish Bay Whitefish Bay High 25.71
Madison Metropolitan Memorial High 25.25
Mequon-Thiensville Homestead High 25.07
Elmbrook Central High 24.60
Nicolet UHS Nicolet High 24.49
Middleton-Cross Plains Middleton High 24.48
Elmbrook East High 24.46
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Also never heard of Waukesha West being among top high schools. Below are the top median ACT scores of public schools in WI from 2007.
Kohler Kohler High 26.15
Shorewood Shorewood High 25.83
Madison Metropolitan West High 25.71
Whitefish Bay Whitefish Bay High 25.71
Madison Metropolitan Memorial High 25.25
Mequon-Thiensville Homestead High 25.07
Elmbrook Central High 24.60
Nicolet UHS Nicolet High 24.49
Middleton-Cross Plains Middleton High 24.48
Elmbrook East High 24.46
Kohler, Bay, and Shorewood are all deceptive compared to Homestead, Brookfield Central, and the Madison Schools cause they have 600-700 students whereas the latter have 1500-2200. I actually think Kohler has under 400. But then again, a smaller sample size means its easier to keep averages higher, but funding is less. Where the bigger schools have more to even out averages, but more funding. All are equally impressive.
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Kohler, Bay, and Shorewood are all deceptive compared to Homestead, Brookfield Central, and the Madison Schools cause they have 600-700 students whereas the latter have 1500-2200. I actually think Kohler has under 400. But then again, a smaller sample size means its easier to keep averages higher, but funding is less. Where the bigger schools have more to even out averages, but more funding. All are equally impressive.
Kohler is a blue collar town, I think that makes it more impressive, most of the other schools on the list are upper middle class area codes with more (formally) educated parents with higher (presumably) expectations regarding education. I'd say Kohler is more impressive than deceptive.
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Also never heard of Waukesha West being among top high schools. Below are the top median ACT scores of public schools in WI from 2007.
Kohler Kohler High 26.15
Shorewood Shorewood High 25.83
Madison Metropolitan West High 25.71
Whitefish Bay Whitefish Bay High 25.71
Madison Metropolitan Memorial High 25.25
Mequon-Thiensville Homestead High 25.07
Elmbrook Central High 24.60
Nicolet UHS Nicolet High 24.49
Middleton-Cross Plains Middleton High 24.48
Elmbrook East High 24.46
Are ACT scores a good metric to compare schools? After all, only those who are college bound take the ACT, right? What about those students that don't take the ACT, or only take the SAT because they're going to college out of state?
Hypothetically, if only 5% of the students from Kohler took the ACT, and the rest that didn't failed their senior year, does that make their school better than an Elmbrook East where 95% of the students took the ACT yet as a group scored lower?
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Kohler is a blue collar town, I think that makes it more impressive, most of the other schools on the list are upper middle class area codes with more (formally) educated parents with higher (presumably) expectations regarding education. I'd say Kohler is more impressive than deceptive.
It may be blue collar, but its a fairly affluent town, absolutely upper middle class. Are you sure you're not thinking Sheboygan itself? Kohler started as a planned community for the workers but now has kind of turned into a very nice suburb of sorts for Sheybogan. My grandparents live there and its very nice. The goals of students at that HS are not concurrent with that of other "blue collar" towns. I would imagine the college placement is just as high as any of the others and expectations are no different.
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To be fair, it should be said that there are people halfassing it in all professions. There are bad/lazy doctors, lawyers, teachers, corporate lemmings, etc.
Anyone can see this just from reading this board ;D
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It may be blue collar, but its a fairly affluent town, absolutely upper middle class. Are you sure you're not thinking Sheboygan itself? Kohler started as a planned community for the workers but now has kind of turned into a very nice suburb of sorts for Sheybogan. My grandparents live there and its very nice. The goals of students at that HS are not concurrent with that of other "blue collar" towns. I would imagine the college placement is just as high as any of the others and expectations are no different.
All that may be true, but we will never forgive Joe Wolf.
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Sheboygan has suburbs. Who knew.
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Sheboygan has suburbs. Who knew.
Does this mean Sheboygan is spreading? God help us.