Watched the Baylor/Duke game today, and before Baylor started to foul intentionally at end of the game, the free throw disparity in the 2nd half was Duke 19 attempts to Baylor's 2. Duke got every borderline call, for Baylor to get a call, it had to be blatant.
It was bullsh**. Zoubek should have fouled out 10 minutes before he did. He went over the back 15 times in the minutes before he fouled out. It's stupid. I hate Duke, and I hate that we can't have a final four without an 'elite' program.
From now on I'm rooting for ABD (Anybody But Duke).
Throw in on top of it the b.s. Tech they called on Baylor near the end, when Schyer threw an elbow
Gotta root for the Big East against Duke next week anyway. Conference pride on the line, though it's too bad it's Huggins that we need to root for.
Ners, I thought the same thing when I saw that 19-2 stat. What a freaking joke.
Years from now, I'm convinced a ref will spill the beans about NCAA reffing and Duke, with wagering, payoffs, etc.
Quote from: HylianHero on March 28, 2010, 06:23:56 PM
It was bullsh**. Zoubek should have fouled out 10 minutes before he did. He went over the back 15 times in the minutes before he fouled out. It's stupid. I hate Duke, and I hate that we can't have a final four without an 'elite' program.
From now on I'm rooting for ABD (Anybody But Duke).
Or how about that ridiculous "charge" late in the second half when Zoubek clearly got there late and they waved off the basket. That also should've fouled him out. Turning point in the game imo. Total BS.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 28, 2010, 06:30:26 PM
Or how about that ridiculous "charge" late in the second half when Zoubek clearly got there late and they waved off the basket. That also should've fouled him out. Turning point in the game imo. Total BS.
That was the play of the game. Baylor needed to get a damn rebound though. If they secure a few more boards, they would have won that game with relative ease.
The NCAA tourney contract with CBS is up this year and open for bidding, so ratings have never been more important. Think they wanted Baylor rounding out an already unattractive, (ratings wise), final four field?? Me neither. I've heard that's why Duke got a #1 with an easy road this year; the extra importance of ratings this year.
All these conspiracy theories are sad. If anyone would actually want Duke to win when they watch it tells a much different story. The only thing Baylor did better than Duke was bring better looking cheerleaders to the game.
The CBS contract runs through 2013, but there is an opt out clause for the NCAA this year. A possible scenario might be expansion with the NCAA selling some of the extra games to ESPN or another network.
Quote from: chapman on March 28, 2010, 06:44:58 PM
All these conspiracy theories are sad. If anyone would actually want Duke to win when they watch it tells a much different story. The only thing Baylor did better than Duke was bring better looking cheerleaders to the game.
I don't have a conspiracy theory, but a 19-2 differentail in FT attempts is ridiculous. Baylor plays an agressive brand of offensive basketball, that should elicit fouls - yet Duke was playing against a zone defense and launching a lot of threes, yet they get to the line 19 times to 2 Baylor trips?? In the spirit of the NFL Primetime/Countdown guys: C'mon Man
Quote from: Ners on March 28, 2010, 07:09:11 PM
I don't have a conspiracy theory, but a 19-2 differentail in FT attempts is ridiculous.
Were you bitching at halftime when Baylor had a 17-10 differential? Seriously, Duke was much more aggressive in the second half offensively and attacked the zone. I agree that the Zoubek call was wrong, but this talk of conspiracy theories is pathetic. This is Duke's first trip to the Final Four since 2004...some conspiracy...only works every six years.
Baylor had their shot, especially with Singler shooting 0 for 10. But Duke's guard's, especially Nolan Smith played a great game. If only Baylor could have rebounded on those long missed shots which Duke converted for 3's.
Now maybe you'll understand why I posted the things I did in the Duke=evil thread......
They were handed the easiest bracket by far including the pay-in game which they did not deserve since they weren't the number one overall seed.
They get away with illegal screens, ridiculous no calls, aggressive hand checks, elbows etc.....EVERY game
I've been watching their ACC games for 5 years now and they get away with things that no other team in college basketball does...
K (aka ratface) is an a## hole and the most over praised, undeserving coach in Div 1 ball.
As much as I hate to root for huggy bear....go WVU!!!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 28, 2010, 07:14:14 PM
Were you bitching at halftime when Baylor had a 17-10 differential? Seriously, Duke was much more aggressive in the second half offensively and attacked the zone. I agree that the Zoubek call was wrong, but this talk of conspiracy theories is pathetic. This is Duke's first trip to the Final Four since 2004...some conspiracy...only works every six years.
Exactly. In the second half, it looked like Duke was getting raped on a lot of calls inside as people were flailing all over the place.
I'm glad Duke won, only because it pisses so many people off. They graduate players, don't cheat, etc....
it sure didn't take long for the Dick Bavetta theory to come out on this one. I don't like Duke either, but to say that the NCAA torpedoed competition to favor them is a little hard to believe.
Seriously, these anti Duke threads are getting stupid. I am by no means a Duke fan. I have a kind of grudging respect for them based on how good they are, how they play as a team, how they graduate players, etc. Watch the game. The Baylor player came out of nowhere with a stupid push right in front of the ref- he should have been called for a tech.
The second half Duke was way more aggressive, went after the offensive rebounds, and were constantly in the lane.
And for the conspiracy theorists; Doug Gottlieb had some good comments after the brackets came out saying that anyone who thinks Duke got an easy path on purpose has no idea how the brackets are made.
It's not a conspiract theory. Every year they are seeded about two better slots than they deserve, are placed in the east bracket and are given opponents with injuries and downturn of momentum. and they get the calls. The funny thing is they usually aren't up to the task anyway but let's not say they do not have M.F.T. status with the committee. The Baylor big man played 9 minutes and the second foul call was absolutely astounding. Go Butler, WVU and Michigan State.
Quote from: patso on March 28, 2010, 07:54:12 PM
It's not a conspiract theory. Every year they are seeded about two better slots than they deserve, are placed in the east bracket and are given opponents with injuries and downturn of momentum. and they get the calls. The funny thing is they usually aren't up to the task anyway but let's not say they do not have M.F.T. status with the committee. The Baylor big man played 9 minutes and the second foul call was absolutely astounding. Go Butler, WVU and Michigan State.
Just to clarify this position because I sadly hear it quite a bit. Are you honestly suggesting that CBS executives (President? Programming? Sports?) are in on this; and then influence the committee, who is made up of Presidents of other universities, and pressure them to give Duke a higher seed than they deserve (even though every single Bracketologist has had them as a #1 seed for pretty much the entire year), and try to arrange the brackets so that they play the easier competition? And then, on top of this, all of the NCAA officials, who are picked for the tourney because they are the best, are in on this as well, and make favorable foul calls for them.
Wow, that's quite a reach.
Again, Doug Gottlieb explained this far better than I can when he said that people who understand all of the rules and what goes into picking the brackets would never ever think this...
I watched the game with no sound and wondered if it could possibly be as bad a job as it looked. That "charge" they called with a few minutes left to take away a bucket that would have put baylor up 4 was the turning point of the game. Such an obvious and-one. The technical on baylor after the elbow was an even worse call, but the refs had wrapped the game up by then.
Re: Duke Bias
« Reply #18 on: Today at 08:07:27 PM » Quote
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Quote from: patso on Today at 07:54:12 PM
It's not a conspiract theory. Every year they are seeded about two better slots than they deserve, are placed in the east bracket and are given opponents with injuries and downturn of momentum. and they get the calls. The funny thing is they usually aren't up to the task anyway but let's not say they do not have M.F.T. status with the committee. The Baylor big man played 9 minutes and the second foul call was absolutely astounding. Go Butler, WVU and Michigan State.
Just to clarify this position because I sadly hear it quite a bit. Are you honestly suggesting that CBS executives (President? Programming? Sports?) are in on this; and then influence the committee, who is made up of Presidents of other universities, and pressure them to give Duke a higher seed than they deserve (even though every single Bracketologist has had them as a #1 seed for pretty much the entire year), and try to arrange the brackets so that they play the easier competition? And then, on top of this, all of the NCAA officials, who are picked for the tourney because they are the best, are in on this as well, and make favorable foul calls for them.
Wow, that's quite a reach.
Again, Doug Gottlieb explained this far better than I can when he said that people who understand all of the rules and what goes into picking the brackets would never ever think this...
YES
Quote from: marquette99 on March 28, 2010, 08:17:04 PM
I watched the game with no sound and wondered if it could possibly be as bad a job as it looked. That "charge" they called with a few minutes left to take away a bucket that would have put baylor up 4 was the turning point of the game. Such an obvious and-one. The technical on baylor after the elbow was an even worse call, but the refs had wrapped the game up by then.
I agree that was a bad call, but we get the benefit of watching it on slow motion replay. The refs don't.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 28, 2010, 07:27:42 PM
I'm glad Duke won, only because it pisses so many people off.
I think you've just revealed what makes you happy in life Chicos - thus your controversial reputation here at MUScoop. Do you really derive pleasure from seeing people pissed off? Or did I interpret your comment incorrectly? I guess just another difference between you and me my friend - I take gladness and happiness out of seeing other people rejoice, exalt, and being happy...not seeing them pissed off.
Quote from: marquette99 on March 28, 2010, 08:17:04 PM
I watched the game with no sound and wondered if it could possibly be as bad a job as it looked. That "charge" they called with a few minutes left to take away a bucket that would have put baylor up 4 was the turning point of the game. Such an obvious and-one. The technical on baylor after the elbow was an even worse call, but the refs had wrapped the game up by then.
I too watche the game with no sound. I agree with your post. Baylor was ripped off in this game. But, they did need to get some of those defensive rebounds.
Quote from: Ners on March 28, 2010, 09:25:42 PM
I think you've just revealed what makes you happy in life Chicos - thus your controversial reputation here at MUScoop. Do you really derive pleasure from seeing people pissed off? Or did I interpret your comment incorrectly? I guess just another difference between you and me my friend - I take gladness and happiness out of seeing other people rejoice, exalt, and being happy...not seeing them pissed off.
LOL....more than anything I like to shoot down crazy conspiracy talk and folks like Hayward that is so fast and loose with the facts you would think aliens killed JFK after Hayward was done with his stories.
No Ners, that's not what I get satisfaction out of. This idea that Duke gets all the calls makes me scratch my head....were all the refs not getting the memos say the last few years?
Villanova beat them last year in the round of 16
West Virginia beat them the year before in the round of 32
Virginia Commonwealth knocked them out in the FIRST ROUND the year prior
LSU knocked them out in the round of 16 the year prior
MSU knocked them out in the round of 16 the year prior
Fact is, they haven't been anything other than a Sweet 16 team or less in the last 5 years until this year. For Duke, that's a drought.
I just chuckle at some of this talk.
The charge call was not an easy call....in slow motion for us all to see, maybe. Charge - block is the toughest call in basketball and is a bang bang call most of the time.
There looked to be a goal tending call that wasn't called against Baylor that Coach K was going ballistic about. The technical was the CORRECT call. They always catch someone that decides to get involved after the fact.
Let's not forget this game was played in Houston, Texas and Baylor fans dominated that stadium. They had their chances, they didn't do it. The refs did not decide that game. Offensive rebounding did and clutch shooting at the end.
Ners, you realize with 1:36 left in the game the fouls were as follows
Baylor 14 personal fouls
Duke 15 personal fouls
In the last 1:36 with Duke up 7 points and Baylor needing to foul, they committed 7 fouls to try and extend the game
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=300870150&period=2
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=300870150
I disagree on that particular charge block. Acy clearly saw Zoubek coming at him. Acy moved his body to avoid the contact and still got the charge call. There are bang bang charge/ block calls where a guy is coming right down the lane and the defender slides over. This wasn't even close. Maybe I had a better angle at home than the ref did, who knows?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 28, 2010, 10:00:34 PM
Ners, you realize with 1:36 left in the game the fouls were as follows
Baylor 14 personal fouls
Duke 15 personal fouls
In the last 1:36 with Duke up 7 points and Baylor needing to foul, they committed 7 fouls to try and extend the game
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=300870150&period=2
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=300870150
That's one way of looking at it, but if you look closer you will also see that from the 8:48 to 1:19 mark, Baylor was called for 9 fouls, and 1 technical, duke called for 2 fouls in that stretch At the 8:48 mark Baylor was ahead 52-51. Clearly things turned in the favor of Duke from this point forward, and as others have written, the charge call on Baylor's Acy against Zoubek was a huge call against Baylor - would have fouled Zoubek out at the 6:38 mark..and furthermore it wiped out the 2 point basket Acy made, and the And 1 option...and instead sends Zoubek to the line where he made 1 of 2 - so at minimum a 3 point swing, likely 4 point swing - and Duke gets to keep Zoubek in the game.
No matter how you look at it - the game was definitely whistled in Duke's favor down the stretch - no other way to justify the 9-2 foul disparity I mentioned above - or the 19 free throw attempts by Duke, to 2 by Baylor. I don't have anything against duke, just though Baylor got hosed.
I think Coach K is well respected, has been around forever, has won forever and coached well forever - and the refs obviuously have a lot of respoct for him. Newer coaches somtimes don't have that money in the banl yet. We even said that on ths boards when Buzz was not getting some calls.
So, not a conspiracy, but Coack K has the respect of official for sure.
How many times in a college basketball season does a ref make the wrong "charge/block" call?
All of you are just looking for a reason as to why Duke won. Could it be offensive rebounding? Scheyer and Smith's clutch 3-pointers?
No, it's because Brian Zoubek (5 points) didn't foul out...are you guys serious?
I'm so sick of everyone saying "I hate Duke, they get all the calls and always win. Dickie V is on their nuts."
But when Dickie V raves about Izzo or Huggins, everyone agrees.
Look at the whole picture before you bash, debatably, the classiest program in the country.
Quote from: beaconwarrior on March 29, 2010, 01:30:27 AM
How many times in a college basketball season does a ref make the wrong "charge/block" call?
All of you are just looking for a reason as to why Duke won. Could it be offensive rebounding? Scheyer and Smith's clutch 3-pointers?
No, it's because Brian Zoubek (5 points) didn't foul out...are you guys serious?
I'm so sick of everyone saying "I hate Duke, they get all the calls and always win. Dickie V is on their nuts."
But when Dickie V raves about Izzo or Huggins, everyone agrees.
Look at the whole picture before you bash, debatably, the classiest program in the country.
Classy programs don't associate themselves with guys like Myron Piggie.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 28, 2010, 07:27:42 PM
Exactly. In the second half, it looked like Duke was getting raped on a lot of calls inside as people were flailing all over the place.
I'm glad Duke won, only because it pisses so many people off. They graduate players, don't cheatget caught, etc....
Fixed it for you
Quote from: bma725 on March 29, 2010, 01:47:46 AM
Classy programs don't associate themselves with guys like Myron Piggie.
Aw, c'mon, any program could have had a player they didn't know was being paid paid by an AAU coach/crack dealer! Snyder?
Quote from: Ners on March 28, 2010, 06:17:16 PM
Watched the Baylor/Duke game today, and before Baylor started to foul intentionally at end of the game, the free throw disparity in the 2nd half was Duke 19 attempts to Baylor's 2. Duke got every borderline call, for Baylor to get a call, it had to be blatant.
I don't believe in conspiracies, but the block/charge call that they got wrong was an absolutely huge call, a game changer. But at the time, Baylor was still ahead. They lost the game by not controlling the defensive boards in crunch time (a trait, unfortunately, that is common to teams I am rooting for).
I will say this, however. Any number 1 seed would have traded brackets with Duke in a heartbeat. To say that they didn't have the easiest bracket set up in the tournament would be to deny the obvious. They did manage to dodge the only potential land mine, which was Baylor in Texas, so they deserve credit or that.
Quote from: Ners on March 28, 2010, 10:56:19 PM
No matter how you look at it - the game was definitely whistled in Duke's favor down the stretch - no other way to justify the 9-2 foul disparity I mentioned above - or the 19 free throw attempts by Duke, to 2 by Baylor. I don't have anything against duke, just though Baylor got hosed.
"No other way?" Maybe because Duke was playing better. Seriously, sometimes I wonder if people actually watch these games...
I'm not in the group that thinks there's a full blown conspiracy, but there's gotta be something in the referees' general unconscious that leads to some of the calls Duke gets over the years.
Duke played MUCH better than Baylor in the second half, but that offensive foul call is about as bad as it gets. Zoubek came running over and leaned into Avy. It was worth an eye roll live, and was even more comical on replay. I believe Baylor had come storming back and was on a mini 7-2 run right there. They should have had an opportunity for 10-2 run and some full blown momentum, if not for a horrific call. Yes, horrific calls happen, but I can't EVER recall a truly horrific call being an influence against Duke in one of their games. That hurt Baylor.
And the technical was no better. With Scheyer swinging elbows wildly then prancing off with a smug smirk on his face, it was worth a technical, and probably an ass kicking for that matter. Truthfully though, I think you either have to go no call or double tech right there. To reward Duke for that is heinous.
Quote from: Moonboots on March 29, 2010, 07:55:04 AM
I'm not in the group that thinks there's a full blown conspiracy, but there's gotta be something in the referees' general unconscious that leads to some of the calls Duke gets over the years.
Duke played MUCH better than Baylor in the second half, but that offensive foul call is about as bad as it gets. Zoubek came running over and leaned into Avy. It was worth an eye roll live, and was even more comical on replay. I believe Baylor had come storming back and was on a mini 7-2 run right there. They should have had an opportunity for 10-2 run and some full blown momentum, if not for a horrific call. Yes, horrific calls happen, but I can't EVER recall a truly horrific call being an influence against Duke in one of their games. That hurt Baylor.
And the technical was no better. With Scheyer swinging elbows wildly then prancing off with a smug smirk on his face, it was worth a technical, and probably an ass kicking for that matter. Truthfully though, I think you either have to go no call or double tech right there. To reward Duke for that is heinous.
Was it as bad as this Scheyer face? I missed that sequence during the game (and just wanted to post this picture):
(http://therafters.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/scheyer9_feature.jpg)
Quote from: indeelaw90 on March 29, 2010, 06:00:19 AM
Fixed it for you
And there were Wisconsin fans in the 1970's that made the same claims about MU and Marquette with various activities by alums, etc.
I'm sorry, but when the book is written about shady Programs in NCAA history, I don't think Duke will be in the conversation
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 29, 2010, 07:43:45 AM
"No other way?" Maybe because Duke was playing better. Seriously, sometimes I wonder if people actually watch these games...
Please don't question those that have such high basketball iq's....higher than all of us.
;)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 29, 2010, 08:55:33 AM
I'm sorry, but when the book is written about shady Programs in NCAA history, I don't think Duke will be in the conversation
Funny, but the book has already been written, and it includes portions about Duke cheating. See "Sole Influence" by Dan Wetzel and Don Yaeger.
Unless of course you don't consider using an ineligible player to get to the Final Four as cheating.
I guess I will ask again, didn't Duke have MORE fouls called against them than Baylor until the last minute of the game?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 29, 2010, 07:43:45 AM
"No other way?" Maybe because Duke was playing better. Seriously, sometimes I wonder if people actually watch these games...
19-2 is a huge disparity, particularily when you consider Duke wasn't pounding the ball inside, nor were they attacking a whole lot off the dribble. They moved the ball well in and out of the zone, and were hitting a lot of 3's. Baylor's big man got tick tack fouls all game (exception being on the Scheyer 3).
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 29, 2010, 09:02:57 AM
I guess I will ask again, didn't Duke have MORE fouls called against them than Baylor until the last minute of the game?
And I guess I'll ask again, Baylor gets whistled for 9 fouls, plus the technical (which at best should have been a double technical, but the right call was no technical at that stage of the game, given what transpired) to Dukes 2 fouls from the 8:48 mark to the 1:19 mark?? But, you argue Duke had more fouls called against them up until the last minute of the game - yet they went to the Free Throw line 19 times, compared to 2 times for Baylor?? Not sure how that translates..but...C'mon Man.
Quote from: robertoc on March 28, 2010, 07:43:42 PM
Seriously, these anti Duke threads are getting stupid. I am by no means a Duke fan. I have a kind of grudging respect for them based on how good they are, how they play as a team, how they graduate players, etc. Watch the game. The Baylor player came out of nowhere with a stupid push right in front of the ref- he should have been called for a tech.
Scheyer incited the push, but the retaliator always gets nailed.
Holy crap...
I just got an email from a Duke fan complaining about the home crowd for Baylor in Houston and how unfair it is to have teams playing road games in the tournament. I then pointed out to him that Duke has played its opening round games in North Carolina five of the last ten years, and with Charlotte and Greensboro hosting first and second round games the next two years, Duke will probably be playing there too.
Talk about delusional...and I've been defending them in this thread too!
Quote from: Ners on March 29, 2010, 09:12:49 AM
19-2 is a huge disparity, particularily when you consider Duke wasn't pounding the ball inside, nor were they attacking a whole lot off the dribble. They moved the ball well in and out of the zone, and were hitting a lot of 3's. Baylor's big man got tick tack fouls all game (exception being on the Scheyer 3).
And I guess I'll ask again, Baylor gets whistled for 9 fouls, plus the technical (which at best should have been a double technical, but the right call was no technical at that stage of the game, given what transpired) to Dukes 2 fouls from the 8:48 mark to the 1:19 mark?? But, you argue Duke had more fouls called against them up until the last minute of the game - yet they went to the Free Throw line 19 times, compared to 2 times for Baylor?? Not sure how that translates..but...C'mon Man.
So the fouls in the beginning of the game don't count, only the ones at the end? Come on Man. So in the first half it was anti-Duke but in the last 9 minutes they decided to turn on the pro-Duke bias?
Sorry, I don't see it your way. I don't see any national outrage by the media on this either. Baylor shot poorly from 3 point land and gave up huge offensive rebounds at the end.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 29, 2010, 11:55:19 AM
Holy crap...
I just got an email from a Duke fan complaining about the home crowd for Baylor in Houston and how unfair it is to have teams playing road games in the tournament. I then pointed out to him that Duke has played its opening round games in North Carolina five of the last ten years, and with Charlotte and Greensboro hosting first and second round games the next two years, Duke will probably be playing there too.
Talk about delusional...and I've been defending them in this thread too!
I know I am a bit OT with that Duke conspiracy stuff, but you should not be allowed to play in your home state until the Final Four. Between UNC and/or Duke each year, they average 2-4 home games each year. Ridiculous.
All this foul counting reminds me of a McGuire story. The best comeback he ever got from a referee (and I think the only time he admitted not having a comeback) was when he yelled at some ref something like: "Hey, that's five calls in a row for those guys, how about a call for us"; and the ref turned and said: "Coach, I don't count 'em, I just call 'em."