March Madness: Is public college football killing private schools' basketball?
By: Neal McCluskey
OpEd Contributor
March 18, 2010
Georgetown's Greg Monroe, top, shoots over Marquette's Lazar Hayward during the first half of a semifinal round NCAA college basketball game at the Big East Conference Championships on Friday, March 12, 2010 in New York. (AP Photo/Frank Franklin II) (AP)
Twenty-five years ago, the Big East Conference pulled off two feats not since repeated: It put three teams in the NCAA Tournament's Final Four, and all were private schools. Unfortunately, both the Big East, and private schools regularly contending for championships, are in danger of extinction. The reason? Football.
The Big East's greatest year was 1985. Yes, this year the league has several top seeds, and last season it produced three number-one seeds and two Final Four teams. But none of that can compare.
In '85, St. John's, Georgetown and Villanova all made the Final Four, and Villanova defeated the Hoyas in perhaps the greatest upset in tourney history.
The conference has remained a hoops powerhouse since then. But it has also been in constant flux thanks to its need to compete in big-time football, by far the biggest moneymaker in college sports.
Founded in 1979, the Big East didn't sponsor football until 1991. When it did, its overwhelmingly private complexion was drastically altered, with Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Rutgers and Temple, as well as the private University of Miami, joining primarily for football.
Meanwhile, many original members didn't hit the gridiron at all.
With football conferences of at least 12 members able to stage cash-cow championship games, the relatively small Big East remained vulnerable to poaching. And poached it was: In 2003, the Atlantic Coast Conference grabbed Miami, Virginia Tech and Boston College.
To save its life, the Big East brought in Louisville, South Florida and Cincinnati for football and basketball, and Marquette and DePaul for hoops.
The Big East has survived, but only with eight basketball-only and eight football schools. That balances football and non-football membership, but also makes it impossible to bring in more football schools.
Meanwhile, the gridiron market hasn't cooled off: In pursuit of conference championship dough, last year the Big Ten announced that it would explore expansion. And the Big East is in its sights. According to an assessment released two weeks ago, Rutgers is a very attractive candidate, as are Pitt and Syracuse.
So why can't schools like Georgetown and St. John's play Big East football and end the constant poaching? After all, Notre Dame is private and plays top-level football. Ditto Southern Cal.
A few private institutions do, indeed, play major college football. But of 120 Bowl Division schools only 17 are private. Many of those, such as Duke and Vanderbilt, are perennial doormats.
Most private institutions simply aren't large enough to compete with the publics. Thanks to massive taxpayer subsidies, public universities are much bigger and cheaper, and can bring in far more students. That leads to many more fans and more potential sports donors.
The problem is reflected brilliantly in game attendance. In 2009, average crowd size for Southeastern Conference games was 76,288. At SEC-member Vanderbilt, it was only 35,015. In the ACC, the average draw was 51,249; at Duke, just 26,314. The Big Ten average was 71,769; but Northwestern a mere 24,190.
The upshot of all this is smaller schools have less money to hire big-name coaching staffs and build Taj Mahal athletic facilities. And private schools need donors to contribute to their whole operation – unlike publics, taxpayers don't underwrite private schools' academics – making it less likely that benefactors will focus on sports.
Unfortunately, football's massive weight is smothering college basketball. In particular, the game is being dominated by "power conferences" – which except for the Big East consist overwhelmingly of public institutions – that not only play Bowl Division football, but are part of the exclusive Bowl Championship Series.
Since 1998, the year the BCS started, only three non-BCS teams have made the Final Four, and pre-Big East membership Marquette was the only private school among them. In contrast, in the 1970s and 80s, such private institutions as Jacksonville University, UPenn, and St. Bonaventure made the promised land.
If the Big 10 nabs Rutgers, Pitt or Syracuse, private-school hoops will sink even lower, with the Big East likely to crumble and '85 contenders Georgetown, St. John's and Villanova forced into mid-major status.
Twenty-five years after the greatest postseason ever for a college basketball conference, we could be staring at both the end of that conference, and another nail in the private-school hoops coffin.
Neal McCluskey is a higher education expert at the Cato Institute.
Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/OpEd-Contributor/Is-public-college-football-killing-private-schools-basketball--88479987.html#ixzz0ii02GYeo
The reason for all of the conference re-alignments is football and it will likely split the BE sometime in the future. Seems the author missed an obvious final four private school since 98 in Georgetown and the author is from DC.
Quote from: sailwi on March 20, 2010, 05:24:17 AM
The reason for all of the conference re-alignments is football and it will likely split the BE sometime in the future. Seems the author missed an obvious final four private school since 98 in Georgetown and the author is from DC.
Georgetown was in the Big East, though not having football and a private school, a BCS team. Marquette was in CUSA when we made the final 4.
Can't disagree with much in the article. College football drives the college sports bus...and its power is growing.
Just a thought, what if the non-football schools form their own organization. They could even pay their players a reasonable stipend to attract top talent. As long as the product on the court is good, the market will be there.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 20, 2010, 09:11:14 AM
Just a thought, what if the non-football schools form their own organization. They could even pay their players a reasonable stipend to attract top talent. As long as the product on the court is good, the market will be there.
Other than the private schools of the Big East, how many other schools are legit top 25 programs? You can probably count them on one hand.
What the non-football schools can do is form
one conference and that's about it.
Well, you could have the Big East teams in one conference
Villanova
Marquette
Georgetown
Notre Dame (who knows what they would do?)
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Providence
DePaul
The A10 could make up their own conference
Xavier
Richmond
Dayton
Lasalle
Duquesne
St. Louis
St. Bonaventure
Fordham
George Washington
Temple
St. Joseph's
Throw some MVC and Horizon schools together
Bradley
Creighton
Drake
Evansville
Butler
Detroit
Loyola
Valpo
The WCC could stay in-tact
Gonzaga
St. Marys
Santa Clara
Loyola Maraymount
Pepperdine
San Francisco
San Diego
Portland
Not sure what the Ivy League would do?
Maybe some Patriot League teams
American
Bucknell
Colgate
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Throw in some other schools that could fit in somewhere...
Boston University
Siena
George Mason
Drexel
Hartford
Charleston
Davidson
Wofford
Couldnt agree more with this article.
I have no idea why some think the BE is the best it has ever been. If you have been a fan of college basketball, it clearly got worse after the CUSA expansion. The regular season is watered down. The conference tournament is watered down. It's a geographic mess. And that's not even brining up the football side of things.
Mid 80's to early 90's was it's peak, at least for basketball.
The non football schools of the big east would still make up a pretty strong conference obviously not as stong as the current big east but still formidable. Throw in two other Catholic schools Xavier and Dayton or perhaps St Louis and/or Butler? and it would be a strong conference.
The question is how would a non football conference compete going forward. Would not having football help or hurt as far as bringing in recruits? Could the conference itself compete financially with football/basketball conferences? The individual non football schools are doing ok without football but if they were in a basketball only conference would the conference bring in the money to compete with the big conferences? Not sure.
Also, I wonder if Villanova would decide to move their football program to D-1 if the choice is a basketball only conference or moving to one of the superconferences. I think that they would move to D-1 Football and that would be a major hit to the basketball only programs in my mind because they have been very good as of late and are one of the big name basketball only teams.
Quote from: cheebs09 on March 20, 2010, 10:36:17 AM
Also, I wonder if Villanova would decide to move their football program to D-1 if the choice is a basketball only conference or moving to one of the superconferences. I think that they would move to D-1 Football and that would be a major hit to the basketball only programs in my mind because they have been very good as of late and are one of the big name basketball only teams.
Not having villanova would be a problem. Not sure why they are not D1 football now maybe they don't have the facilities or infrastructure to do it. I don't know
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on March 20, 2010, 10:21:34 AM
Couldnt agree more with this article.
I have no idea why some think the BE is the best it has ever been. If you have been a fan of college basketball, it clearly got worse after the CUSA expansion. The regular season is watered down. The conference tournament is watered down. It's a geographic mess. And that's not even brining up the football side of things.
Mid 80's to early 90's was it's peak, at least for basketball.
Abe....is that you? Abe?
Quote from: Litehouse on March 20, 2010, 09:58:47 AM
Well, you could have the Big East teams in one conference
Villanova
Marquette
Georgetown
Notre Dame (who knows what they would do?)
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Providence
DePaul
The A10 could make up their own conference
Xavier
Richmond
Dayton
Lasalle
Duquesne
St. Louis
St. Bonaventure
Fordham
George Washington
Temple
St. Joseph's
Throw some MVC and Horizon schools together
Bradley
Creighton
Drake
Evansville
Butler
Detroit
Loyola
Valpo
The WCC could stay in-tact
Gonzaga
St. Marys
Santa Clara
Loyola Maraymount
Pepperdine
San Francisco
San Diego
Portland
Not sure what the Ivy League would do?
Maybe some Patriot League teams
American
Bucknell
Colgate
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Throw in some other schools that could fit in somewhere...
Boston University
Siena
George Mason
Drexel
Hartford
Charleston
Davidson
Wofford
Other than the BE schools, and some of the A-10 Schools, how many of these other schools have even been ranked since the invention of color TV?
Answer Drake and Butler in the MVC, George Mason and Davidson in the other category.
So here are the schools that matter ....
Villanova
Marquette
Georgetown
Notre Dame
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Providence
DePaul
Xavier
Richmond
Dayton
Lasalle
Duquesne
St. Louis
St. Bonaventure
Fordham
George Washington
Temple
St. Joseph's
Drake
Butler
George Mason
Davidson
This is totals 23 schools.
Throw out ... Fordham, St. Bonaventure, George Washington, Lasalle, Duquesne, St. Louis, Providence
Then you're left with 16 .... one conference that could probably get a decent TV deal (remember that is the purpose of a conference).
The rest collectively couldn't get a deal deal with The Ouch if it existed.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 20, 2010, 10:50:31 AM
Abe....is that you? Abe?
I thought abe was gumbeyandpokey. Where has his depressing ass been. Now that he dosen't post, I will have to get rid of that prozac.
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on March 20, 2010, 10:21:34 AM
Couldnt agree more with this article.
I have no idea why some think the BE is the best it has ever been.
Yeah, the two Final Four teams last year, the twenty wins in the NCAA tournament (five from the new C-USA teams), the four Elite Teams. Definitely on the way down. ::)
Now, if you want to argue the future may be in trouble, that's one thing. But to act like the conference is not one of the best conferences right now?
Quote from: hairyworthen on March 20, 2010, 10:58:33 AM
I thought abe was gumbeyandpokey. Where has his depressing ass been. Now that he dosen't post, I will have to get rid of that prozac.
I'm still wondering who the new Mr. Hayward is.....looks he they found out who he was on the IU board as they pretty much killed him over there. He's been AWOL over here.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 20, 2010, 10:53:49 AM
Other than the BE schools, and some of the A-10 Schools, how many of these other schools have even been ranked since the invention of color TV?
Answer Drake and Butler in the MVC, George Mason and Davidson in the other category.
So here are the schools that matter ....
Villanova
Marquette
Georgetown
Notre Dame
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Providence
DePaul
Xavier
Richmond
Dayton
Lasalle
Duquesne
St. Louis
St. Bonaventure
Fordham
George Washington
Temple
St. Joseph's
Drake
Butler
George Mason
Davidson
This is totals 23 schools.
Throw out ... Fordham, St. Bonaventure, George Washington, Lasalle, Duquesne, St. Louis, Providence
Then you're left with 16 .... one conference that could probably get a decent TV deal (remember that is the purpose of a conference).
The rest collectively couldn't get a deal deal with The Ouch if it existed.
I guess my point isn't that this would be a good option, it's that the football schools in the NCAA could kick the basketball-only schools out anyway and have their own tournament, and we'd be screwed anyway. Then schools like us would have to do something to stay competitive, like pay players. Like you said, a lot of those schools aren't that competitive right now. But if they committed to taking it serious and possibly paying players, a lot of those schools could improve to at least be legitimate options. If we're shut out of the top level tourney, then there's really no use for the NCAA anymore and their rules, and we would have to do whatever we could stay relevant.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 20, 2010, 11:26:06 AM
I guess my point isn't that this would be a good option, it's that the football schools in the NCAA could kick the basketball-only schools out anyway and have their own tournament, and we'd be screwed anyway. Then schools like us would have to do something to stay competitive, like pay players. Like you said, a lot of those schools aren't that competitive right now. But if they committed to taking it serious and possibly paying players, a lot of those schools could improve to at least be legitimate options. If we're shut out of the top level tourney, then there's really no use for the NCAA anymore and their rules, and we would have to do whatever we could stay relevant.
Where has this been discussed? The NCAA would never ever do this.
The issue is conferences and TV revenue. Right now this bus is being driven by football considerations.
So the Big East loses their BCS automatic bid in football? The Big East is still a BCS conference right? They have to be able to find a way to make money.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on March 20, 2010, 11:18:34 AM
Yeah, the two Final Four teams last year, the twenty wins in the NCAA tournament (five from the new C-USA teams), the four Elite Teams. Definitely on the way down. ::)
Now, if you want to argue the future may be in trouble, that's one thing. But to act like the conference is not one of the best conferences right now?
Compared to the mid 80's to early 90's? No. Im not saying its not one of the best right now. However, when was it ever truly an "average" conference anyways? It has always been one of the best.
Just look at the coaches from the period I mentioned:
Calhoun
Pitino @ Providence
Boeheim
Carlesimo
the "real" John Thompson
Massimino
Carnesecca
These guys made the BE and captivated the college hoops world.
Just sayin...
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 20, 2010, 10:53:49 AM
Other than the BE schools, and some of the A-10 Schools, how many of these other schools have even been ranked since the invention of color TV?
Answer Drake and Butler in the MVC, George Mason and Davidson in the other category.
So here are the schools that matter ....
Villanova
Marquette
Georgetown
Notre Dame
Seton Hall
St. Johns
Providence
DePaul
Xavier
Richmond
Dayton
Lasalle
Duquesne
St. Louis
St. Bonaventure
Fordham
George Washington
Temple
St. Joseph's
Drake
Butler
George Mason
Davidson
This is totals 23 schools.
Throw out ... Fordham, St. Bonaventure, George Washington, Lasalle, Duquesne, St. Louis, Providence
Then you're left with 16 .... one conference that could probably get a decent TV deal (remember that is the purpose of a conference).
The rest collectively couldn't get a deal deal with The Ouch if it existed.
I don't know how to go back and look at rankings over the years, and if they would only list the final rankings form the year and not throughout the year. But to put Richmond, Lasalle, Duquesne, St. Bonaventure, Fordham, George Mason, Drake, Davidson in the discussion is wrong, and especially to not even mention Creighton which has had much more consistent success and are always competitive. And why are you throwing out Providence, who has a history of being consistently competitive in the Big East while Richmond has literally only had 2 good seasons in the last 15 years in the A-10.
I think 1 conference split into three divisions of 6-8 team could be interesting, and would limit the amount of extensive travel (WCC already travels very far) by playing only a few games outside of conference . The West is obviously harder to come up with a solid nucleus, but if Temple is a possibility in the East, I don't know why UNLV and UTEP (who have their fair share of trouble in football) wouldn't be at least interested in joining just for basketball. Just a thought...
WEST
Gonzaga
St. Mary's
Wichita St.
UNLV
UTEP
Portland or Santa Clara?
Loyola Marymount or Santa Clara?
MIDWEST
Marquette
Xavier
St. Louis
DePaul
Butler
Dayton
Creighton
EAST
Villanova
Georgetown
Temple
Seton Hall
St. John's
Providence
St. Joe's or GW?
Could someone give me an example of a college football team that has improved its fortunes by changing conferences? Also, tell me how changing conferences changed it. What about a conference that has improved?
To me, low academic standards and recruiting geography keep the SEC and Big 12 on top. The other teams and conferences can realign all they want. It is not going to help them. This begs the question - why do it? Will it bring the schools more TV money?
Quote from: 1990Warrior on March 20, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
To me, low academic standards and recruiting geography keep the SEC and Big 12 on top.
Texas is one of the best academic schools in the country and is doing pretty well in football and men's basketball. The academic standards in the Big 10 are the same as in the SEC and Big 12: if you are good enough, there really are not any for you.
Ohio and Michigan used to have a vibrant working class and growing population. The demographics have changed. That is a key factor in the Big Ten's relative fall from what it once was in football.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 01:46:48 PM
Texas is one of the best academic schools in the country and is doing pretty well in football and men's basketball. The academic standards in the Big 10 are the same as in the SEC and Big 12: if you are good enough, there really are not any for you.
Ohio and Michigan used to have a vibrant working class and growing population. The demographics have changed. That is a key factor in the Big Ten's relative fall from what it once was in football.
Are we talking about the academic standards for athletes or the school overall? If we are talking overall, Big Ten has much stronger academic institutions than SEC or Big Twelve. Think of Mississippi State, Oklahoma State, LSU, Missouri... we are comparing them to any Big Ten school?
Especially in the research arena. If you compared Nobel prizes and other major awards based on research there would be a HUGE difference between the conferences.
If we talking athletes, than yeah... Big Ten alum live in a dreamworld that somehow their athletes are better students than other schools.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on March 20, 2010, 02:30:36 PM
Are we talking about the academic standards for athletes or the school overall? If we are talking overall, Big Ten has much stronger academic institutions than SEC or Big Twelve. Think of Mississippi State, Oklahoma State, LSU, Missouri... we are comparing them to any Big Ten school?
You are right. The bottom schools in the Big 12 and SEC are worse than the Big Ten schools. I was talking about athletics. Athletes can choose to do nothing at any of these schools. Good academics is useful in recruiting because an athlete can choose to get a lot out of his classes if he wants to. However, athletes can slack at any school (to a reasonable degree of course) they want to and the top schools still find ways to get good players through.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 02:34:04 PM
You are right. The bottom schools in the Big 12 and SEC are worse than the Big Ten schools. I was talking about athletics. Athletes can choose to do nothing at any of these schools. Good academics is useful in recruiting because an athlete can choose to get a lot out of his classes if he wants to. However, athletes can slack at any school (to a reasonable degree of course) they want to and the top schools still find ways to get good players through.
Agreed.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 11:51:50 AM
So the Big East loses their BCS automatic bid in football? The Big East is still a BCS conference right? They have to be able to find a way to make money.
Yes, the Big East could lose their BCS bid if teams left and the replacement teams were not up to snuff per the BCS. Definitely could happen.
Quote from: 1990Warrior on March 20, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
Could someone give me an example of a college football team that has improved its fortunes by changing conferences? Also, tell me how changing conferences changed it. What about a conference that has improved?
To me, low academic standards and recruiting geography keep the SEC and Big 12 on top. The other teams and conferences can realign all they want. It is not going to help them. This begs the question - why do it? Will it bring the schools more TV money?
More money, allows for a Big Ten championship football game....that's why they are looking into it. Also why the Pac Ten is looking into it.
As for your question, depends how far back you want to go. When the Pac 8 expanded to the Pac 10 by adding Arizona and Arizona State, I'd argue it improved both of their programs. Texas Tech improved by going to the Big 12.
Of course, there are may examples of programs that went the other way. Houston got lost in the shuffle with the breakup of the Southwest Conference. Florida State, Miami and Boston College....jury is still out but doesn't look like the ACC did anything for them, especially Miami.
The problem with all of these things is that you don't want to be left out when the music stops or it takes years if not decades to position yourself back up for a chance to get back into play. This is the thing that MU and other schools have to protect against. Pray that Cottingham and others have a plan is all I've got to say.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 20, 2010, 02:44:57 PM
The problem with all of these things is that you don't want to be left out when the music stops or it takes years if not decades to position yourself back up for a chance to get back into play. This is the thing that MU and other schools have to protect against. Pray that Cottingham and others have a plan is all I've got to say.
It sounds like right now the absolute worst case scenario is a conference consisting of:
Villanova
Georgetown
St. John's
Seton Hall
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Dayton
Providence
And then 2-3 more (I'd like to see St. Joe's. Maybe SLU. Notre Dame alums don't seem to think their football team is joining a conference any time soon so they would be an ideal fit for this hypothetical league.)
Even that doomsday scenerio has us in a better conference than 10 years ago. Is there any reason to think that it could get worse than that? Those are still some pretty good games, especially assuming that St. John's and DePaul get their acts together. It would be harder to get TV contracts with those.
And that is the worst case. UConn, Syracuse, WVU, Pitt, Louisville, ND, and Cincy are the bubble teams to leave. I would guess that Pitt or WVU go to the Big Ten giving them their title game. If we can keep Syracuse and UConn in the Big East, then we are still in an elite conference. Not sure what the future holds for Louisville and Cincy.
I think St. John's returning to glory will do a lot for the Big East now, and the small private school league it might become. Games at MSG have to be attractive.
At the end of the day, the conference in the most trouble is probably the A-10. The Big East will take them over in basketball.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 03:24:10 PM
It sounds like right now the absolute worst case scenario is a conference consisting of:
Villanova
Georgetown
St. John's
Seton Hall
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Dayton
Providence
And then 2-3 more (I'd like to see St. Joe's. Maybe SLU. Notre Dame alums don't seem to think their football team is joining a conference any time soon so they would be an ideal fit for this hypothetical league.)
Even that doomsday scenerio has us in a better conference than 10 years ago. Is there any reason to think that it could get worse than that? Those are still some pretty good games, especially assuming that St. John's and DePaul get their acts together. It would be harder to get TV contracts with those.
And that is the worst case. UConn, Syracuse, WVU, Pitt, Louisville, ND, and Cincy are the bubble teams to leave. I would guess that Pitt or WVU go to the Big Ten giving them their title game. If we can keep Syracuse and UConn in the Big East, then we are still in an elite conference. Not sure what the future holds for Louisville and Cincy.
I think St. John's returning to glory will do a lot for the Big East now, and the small private school league it might become. Games at MSG have to be attractive.
At the end of the day, the conference in the most trouble is probably the A-10. The Big East will take them over in basketball.
It could be worse. Nova and G'Town both have football, just at lower levels. Nova could step up in football if they felt the need to push in that direction.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 03:24:10 PM
It sounds like right now the absolute worst case scenario is a conference consisting of:
Villanova
Georgetown
St. John's
Seton Hall
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Dayton
Providence
And then 2-3 more (I'd like to see St. Joe's. Maybe SLU. Notre Dame alums don't seem to think their football team is joining a conference any time soon so they would be an ideal fit for this hypothetical league.)
Even that doomsday scenerio has us in a better conference than 10 years ago. Is there any reason to think that it could get worse than that? Those are still some pretty good games, especially assuming that St. John's and DePaul get their acts together. It would be harder to get TV contracts with those.
And that is the worst case. UConn, Syracuse, WVU, Pitt, Louisville, ND, and Cincy are the bubble teams to leave. I would guess that Pitt or WVU go to the Big Ten giving them their title game. If we can keep Syracuse and UConn in the Big East, then we are still in an elite conference. Not sure what the future holds for Louisville and Cincy.
I think St. John's returning to glory will do a lot for the Big East now, and the small private school league it might become. Games at MSG have to be attractive.
At the end of the day, the conference in the most trouble is probably the A-10. The Big East will take them over in basketball.
Agreed that is probably worst case. I also like St. Joe's, and I'd like to see a few more teams from the western side to spread out the makeup geographically - such as Creighton, SLU, Wichita St, and Butler should definitely be in the conversation
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 20, 2010, 03:34:36 PM
It could be worse. Nova and G'Town both have football, just at lower levels. Nova could step up in football if they felt the need to push in that direction.
I would think that the bigger possibility is that they get into a major conference as a basketball-only school, don't think they need to bring their football up (and they have to debate the advantages as Villanova has a pretty good thing going right now in D2). If there is room after the large reshuffle, I can't imagine the ACC not wanting GTown and Villanova to up their basketball prestige even more, especially when both schools would jump at any chance to a big name conference
Quote from: KCMarq09 on March 20, 2010, 03:39:58 PM
I would think that the bigger possibility is that they get into a major conference as a basketball-only school, don't think they need to bring their football up (and they have to debate the advantages as Villanova has a pretty good thing going right now in D2). If there is room after the large reshuffle, I can't imagine the ACC not wanting GTown and Villanova to up their basketball prestige even more, especially when both schools would jump at any chance to a big name conference
If UConn and Syracuse go to the ACC for football and basketball, then Nova and G-town could be basketball only in the ACC and they would have 16 teams for basketball. SCARY conference for basketball. I can't imagine that.
Who is to say that Marquette cannot jump onto a conference for basketball only too then? We have a pretty good product and if all of the conferences move to 16-18 teams with a few basketball only schools, we better be on the phone with the Big 10 and the Big 12 to get in on that. It really would not hurt either of those conferences to add Marq and/or DePaul for basketball only. The Big Ten Network would get a big ratings bump in basketball season in Chicago and Milwaukee.
If the ACC is going to set the standard on each conference having a few basketball only schools, then the others might as well too. We have shown we will make the tournament and we sell a lot of tickets. MU makes money for a basketball only school.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 03:24:10 PM
And that is the worst case. UConn, Syracuse, WVU, Pitt, Louisville, ND, and Cincy are the bubble teams to leave. I would guess that Pitt or WVU go to the Big Ten giving them their title game. If we can keep Syracuse and UConn in the Big East, then we are still in an elite conference. Not sure what the future holds for Louisville and Cincy.
No way Syracuse and UConn stick around. Ridiculous. They didnt build a $100 MM football stadium simply to stay competitive. They dove straight into the world of college football and will have every intention of being a part of a conference that will have a BCS bid. The only issue prohibiting Nova from becoming a football school as well is the cost of building a stadium since they are a private school. UConn got tax dollars; Nova will likely receive very little state funding.
And Syracuse was very close to jumping to the ACC the first time before Virginia politics got in the way. I believe it was Boeheim that said Syracuse is a football school that happens to have a very good basketball program. Football games can sell out the Carrier Dome, basketball games cannot.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 03:53:32 PM
If UConn and Syracuse go to the ACC for football and basketball, then Nova and G-town could be basketball only in the ACC and they would have 16 teams for basketball. SCARY conference for basketball. I can't imagine that.
Who is to say that Marquette cannot jump onto a conference for basketball only too then? We have a pretty good product and if all of the conferences move to 16-18 teams with a few basketball only schools, we better be on the phone with the Big 10 and the Big 12 to get in on that. It really would not hurt either of those conferences to add Marq and/or DePaul for basketball only. The Big Ten Network would get a big ratings bump in basketball season in Chicago and Milwaukee.
If the ACC is going to set the standard on each conference having a few basketball only schools, then the others might as well too. We have shown we will make the tournament and we sell a lot of tickets. MU makes money for a basketball only school.
Agreed. Ive had a thought of the 5 conferences adding a few basketball-only teams could work.
Options?
Big Ten: MU, Xavier, Depaul, Butler?
ACC: G-Town, St. John's, Nova?
Big12: MU, Creighton, SLU, Butler or Wichita State (solid athletic programs all around, especially baseball)
Pac10: I guess Gonzaga and St. Mary's are the only good options
SEC:Who knows- George Washington, Old Dominion, Charlotte, Xavier/Dayton (not that far away really) Western Kentucky (since they just joined D1 football in 09)????
Quote from: 1990Warrior on March 20, 2010, 01:06:49 PM
Could someone give me an example of a college football team that has improved its fortunes by changing conferences? Also, tell me how changing conferences changed it. What about a conference that has improved?
Huh? Give me an example of one who *hasn't* improved its fortunes. They change conferences because they make more $$$$ to support their overall athletic program. With that standard, it isn't hard to understand why schools switch.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 20, 2010, 09:11:14 AM
Just a thought, what if the non-football schools form their own organization. They could even pay their players a reasonable stipend to attract top talent. As long as the product on the court is good, the market will be there.
Not a chance. You want to get into a money game with the football schools? That would be disasterous.
Quote from: KCMarq09 on March 20, 2010, 04:16:30 PM
Agreed. Ive had a thought of the 5 conferences adding a few basketball-only teams could work.
Options?
Big Ten: MU, Xavier, Depaul, Butler?
ACC: G-Town, St. John's, Nova?
Big12: MU, Creighton, SLU, Butler or Wichita State (solid athletic programs all around, especially baseball)
Pac10: I guess Gonzaga and St. Mary's are the only good options
SEC:Who knows- George Washington, Old Dominion, Charlotte, Xavier/Dayton (not that far away really) Western Kentucky (since they just joined D1 football in 09)????
Memphis could go to the SEC. I don't know how their football would do, but they would be perfect in basketball.
I can't imagine ESPN's coverage every day about the ACC if G-town, Cuse, Nova, and UConn joined. Other conferences would have to take Marquette and DePaul to try to compete in basketball prestige and so the ACC doesn't run away with all of the top seeds in the 96-team tournament.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 20, 2010, 04:18:47 PM
Not a chance. You want to get into a money game with the football schools? That would be disasterous.
I guess I went too far down the hypothetical line with this issue. My thought was what could schools like MU do if the football schools start their own basketball tournament without us. We would have to do something that would compete for the top talent. If the other schools kept their "amateur" status, we could pay players to level the playing field.
Paying them wouldn't be that huge of a hit with smaller basketball rosters. If every player got a $20k/year stipend, that would still only be $260,000/year for a 13 player roster. Definitely a chunk of change, but still only about 2.6% compared to our $10M annual budget. That's just an example, maybe they get paid more or less, and maybe you can only pay fewer than 13 players, like the 8, and the rest are "walk-ons" that only get scholarships but not the stipend.
If the football schools decide to pay players also, that would level the playing field, but then they'd also have to pay 100 or so football players the same amount.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 20, 2010, 04:35:58 PM
Paying them wouldn't be that huge of a hit with smaller basketball rosters. If every player got a $20k/year stipend, that would still only be $260,000/year for a 13 player roster. Definitely a chunk of change, but still only about 2.6% compared to our $10M annual budget. That's just an example, maybe they get paid more or less, and maybe you can only pay fewer than 13 players, like the 8, and the rest are "walk-ons" that only get scholarships but not the stipend.
Let's not turn into the NBDL.
Things are going to change. The Big East as is will not last for long it doesn't look like. I'd rather see the Big East try to strengthen its football rather than dispand personally.
Whatever happens, I think the glass is still half full for MU. We have proven to make the tourney consistently and we can compete against the big boys. We sell tickets and have a loyal fanbase. We provide a nice little cash flow for a major conference. If we do the "Catholic League" thing, we are still playing Nova, G-town, and St. John's at the Garden. DePaul is going to spend cash to step it up. St. Joe's and Xavier will allow our conference to be competitive. If the BCS shrinks to 5 conferences and people look for basketball only schools, we have to be at the top of that list for money makers.
Fans of Marquette, DePaul, St. John's, Villanova, Georgetown, Xavier, and Gonzaga should not worry too much. We have consistently good products and we make money. Something good will happen. Maybe even something better than now.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 20, 2010, 04:16:47 PM
Huh? Give me an example of one who *hasn't* improved its fortunes. They change conferences because they make more $$$$ to support their overall athletic program. With that standard, it isn't hard to understand why schools switch.
He may have meant competitive fortunes. Certainly some teams have gone "down" as a result of their switches. Miami (FL) seems to be one. Houston when they were out of the Southwest. Boston College, etc.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 04:48:46 PM
Fans of Marquette, DePaul, St. John's, Villanova, Georgetown, Xavier, and Gonzaga should not worry too much. We have consistently good products and we make money. Something good will happen. Maybe even something better than now.
Fans of those schools and of any basketball only school should worry, and worry a lot, because what's coming isn't going to be good. Basketball money is chump change compared to football money and all the conferences out there know that. They have no intention of adding anymore basketball only schools schools to their conferences. They don't want to share money, or publicity with them, nor do they want to give them a say in conference matters.
This isn't a situation where one of the basketball only schools is going to improve their standing. This is a situation where the basketball only schools are going to be left behind.
Quote from: bma725 on March 20, 2010, 07:26:08 PM
Fans of those schools and of any basketball only school should worry, and worry a lot, because what's coming isn't going to be good. Basketball money is chump change compared to football money and all the conferences out there know that. They have no intention of adding anymore basketball only schools schools to their conferences. They don't want to share money, or publicity with them, nor do they want to give them a say in conference matters.
This isn't a situation where one of the basketball only schools is going to improve their standing. This is a situation where the basketball only schools are going to be left behind.
This is what I'm most afraid of, that we'll basically find ourselves in a basketball version of the FCS in football vs. the BCS. That's why I'm thinking what schools like us could do about it, like form our own division and pay players to get top talent.
I guess I dont see whats wrong with a conference of Marquette, DePaul, St. John's, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Xavier, Dayton, St. Joes and Notre Dame (and they keep fb independence). If that is the doomsday scenerio, it is not that bad of a place. If there was any way to justify Gonzaga's frequent trips, I wish we could have them in there too.
Are people suggesting that if you do not have a football team then you are out of D1? Because I see the conference as a step up from C-USA personally. Our cash flow would go down from the Big East days, but we still were able to pay Crean a decent amount and make money for Marquette while in C-USA weren't we?
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 08:56:30 PM
I guess I dont see whats wrong with a conference of Marquette, DePaul, St. John's, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Xavier, Dayton, St. Joes and Notre Dame (and they keep fb independence). If that is the doomsday scenerio, it is not that bad of a place. If there was any way to justify Gonzaga's frequent trips, I wish we could have them in there too.
The problem is what kind of TV contract will this conference generate versus the Big East now? I'm guessing less, far less.
Also No way 'Nova allows St. Joes in the same conference as them. Same way we would never be in the same conference as UWM, or Cincy and Xavier, or DePaul with Loyola. The exception is NYC as its is big enough for SH and St. Johns.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 08:56:30 PM
I guess I dont see whats wrong with a conference of Marquette, DePaul, St. John's, Villanova, Georgetown, Seton Hall, Xavier, Dayton, St. Joes and Notre Dame (and they keep fb independence). If that is the doomsday scenerio, it is not that bad of a place. If there was any way to justify Gonzaga's frequent trips, I wish we could have them in there too.
Are people suggesting that if you do not have a football team then you are out of D1? Because I see the conference as a step up from C-USA personally. Our cash flow would go down from the Big East days, but we still were able to pay Crean a decent amount and make money for Marquette while in C-USA weren't we?
It's not that we'd be out of D1, it's the D1 as it has been known would cease to exist. The football schools would decide they've had enough of being governed by the NCAA, and they've had enough with sharing money with the basketball schools, so they would split off to form their own collegiate athletic association without any basketball only schools and without an small schools. If that happens, and there has been some talk about it for years, we and all the rest of the basketball only schools are dead in the water.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 20, 2010, 09:22:54 PM
The problem is what kind of TV contract will this conference generate versus the Big East now? I'm guessing less, far less.
Also No way 'Nova allows St. Joes in the same conference as them. Same way we would never be in the same conference as UWM, or Cincy and Xavier, or DePaul with Loyola. The exception is NYC as its is big enough for SH and St. Johns.
I will concede our cashflow is going to go down some, but it still has to be better than CUSA was. Fair point about St. Joe's and Nova. Maybe we would have to look at Duquense? UMass to get into the Boston area? Rhode Island?
I just think we will get something that is better than CUSA and that is a half full cup for me.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 20, 2010, 03:24:10 PM
It sounds like right now the absolute worst case scenario is a conference consisting of:
Villanova
Georgetown
St. John's
Seton Hall
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier
Dayton
Providence
And then 2-3 more (I'd like to see St. Joe's. Maybe SLU. Notre Dame alums don't seem to think their football team is joining a conference any time soon so they would be an ideal fit for this hypothetical league.)
This is hardly the worst case scenario.
The almost worst case scenario is that the football schools leave the NCAA for a BCS Basketball alliance, and that alliance forms their own own post-season tournament. It is wrong to assume that we'll be at the same level at the football schools, with conference affiliation as our only change.
The Big Money programs see $545 million per year going to the NCAA, and it peeves them to no end that that they have to share it with 347 D1 schools. They could set up a new post-season tournament--similar to BCS in football--and limit participation to the existing 120 BCS football schools.
But it could get worse.
The other mistaken assumption is that our future is tied to Villanova, Georgetown, Dayton, etc. Those program have strong basketball programs
and have an existing Division I football program. People make the mistake of callilng them basketball-only. There is no doubt in my mind that if the BCS schools try to split off and form a basketball tournament, those four schools would seek to upgrade their football programs so their basketball teams could participate at the higher level.
So the absolute worst case is that we'd be the best program in a new division a step above D2, but a step below today's major basketball programs.
Curious .. Congress often rattles its sabre about sport changes it doesn't like, usually threatening organization's anti-trust status .. NFL, MLB, etc.
Does the NCAA have any sort of status like this? You gotta figure there are more than enough congressmen from bball-only schools that would try to stop the NCAA/BCS from the BCS only teams abandoning the others.
Quote from: bma725 on March 20, 2010, 09:35:55 PM
It's not that we'd be out of D1, it's the D1 as it has been known would cease to exist. The football schools would decide they've had enough of being governed by the NCAA, and they've had enough with sharing money with the basketball schools, so they would split off to form their own collegiate athletic association without any basketball only schools and without an small schools. If that happens, and there has been some talk about it for years, we and all the rest of the basketball only schools are dead in the water.
BMA ...
For this to happen, university presidents would have to approve it. As a group, they have been avoiding the appearance of chasing money because they opens the door to lots of other things, including paying players.
Do you think University Presidents are ready to change their stance and go after money instead of the higher ideals of the "student athlete?"
Regarding paying players, who pays them? Don't rule out the idea that NBA players will draft players and send them to college for a year or two. Imagine MU or Wisc. as a minor league for the Bucks.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 21, 2010, 08:43:53 AM
BMA ...
For this to happen, university presidents would have to approve it. As a group, they have been avoiding the appearance of chasing money because they opens the door to lots of other things, including paying players.
Do you think University Presidents are ready to change their stance and go after money instead of the higher ideals of the "student athlete?"
Regarding paying players, who pays them? Don't rule out the idea that NBA players will draft players and send them to college for a year or two. Imagine MU or Wisc. as a minor league for the Bucks.
They already did it in football with the BCS.
I'm not getting it. If all these conferences get bigger why wouldn't they also pick up some bball only private schools? If the b10 goes to 12 and there is a few bball only schools out there why not make it: 12 fb and 14 bball? If bigger is better than why wouldn't there be room for the bball only schools in these expanding conferences. There won't be a 16 team football conference but the big east proved it would work for basketball.
Quote from: RawdogDX on March 22, 2010, 10:47:55 AM
I'm not getting it. If all these conferences get bigger why wouldn't they also pick up some bball only private schools? If the b10 goes to 12 and there is a few bball only schools out there why not make it: 12 fb and 14 bball? If bigger is better than why wouldn't there be room for the bball only schools in these expanding conferences. There won't be a 16 team football conference but the big east proved it would work for basketball.
Why would they want to share any piece of the pie? If the ACC wanted to add two basketball only schools, does adding Georgetown and Nova really help them *that* much? Do their television deals get so much better that dividing them 14 ways instead of 12 still makes each school more money? I doubt it.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 22, 2010, 10:51:10 AM
Why would they want to share any piece of the pie? If the ACC wanted to add two basketball only schools, does adding Georgetown and Nova really help them *that* much? Do their television deals get so much better that dividing them 14 ways instead of 12 still makes each school more money? I doubt it.
Let's stick to the b10.
I don't know jack about this so please pardon my ignorance. Why wouldn't adding the city of milwaukee as well of plenty of wisconsin and chicago through mu basketball not help land a larger basketball contract. Why else did the big east do it? Wouldn't it add to the number of big ten network viewers.
MU v WI, IL, IN, MI, ND Wouldn't be big games? Those games would be on the b10 network every year. It would up their annual march bid count by one as well as the number of conference tourney games.
Quote from: RawdogDX on March 22, 2010, 11:16:17 AM
Let's stick to the b10.
I don't know jack about this so please pardon my ignorance. Why wouldn't adding the city of milwaukee as well of plenty of wisconsin and chicago through mu basketball not help land a larger basketball contract. Why else did the big east do it? Wouldn't it add to the number of big ten network viewers.
MU v WI, IL, IN, MI, ND Wouldn't be big games? Those games would be on the b10 network every year. It would up their annual march bid count by one as well as the number of conference tourney games.
The Big Ten Network is in every cable household in Wisconsin as it is? What does the addition of Marquette do at all to the conference?
I mentioned the ACC because that at least brings you something new.
Look, there is a reason MU can only get on WMLW now. It's not a big television draw.
Because they already own Milwaukee and Chicago. For the BTN, we already have to pay the monthly carrier fee ($1.10 or whatever) if we live around here. It's not like they care about viewers, since hardly anyone pays to advertise on there, most of the ads are for the BTN itself. Also, the MU fan base is tiny compared to every B10 team besides Northwestern. The potential bids would mean nothing. If MU gets left behind, that's one more spot in the tourny for teams like Illinois.
If anything, MU might be more attractive to a conference like the Big 12, since they don't currently have a presence in WI, and at least we could offer something new.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 22, 2010, 11:30:27 AM
The Big Ten Network is in every cable household in Wisconsin as it is? What does the addition of Marquette do at all to the conference?
I mentioned the ACC because that at least brings you something new.
Look, there is a reason MU can only get on WMLW now. It's not a big television draw.
Ok, no mu to big 10. But why wouldn't the big conferences in general want to add teams and have them be successful rather than just let them fail and have the market share go to no one. I think that conferences expanding will mean that they will want to add bball only schools. For the same reason that any league wants to add more teams. They can only handle a certain number of football schools, they can handle more basketball schools. It seems like bigger is better and they only have one expansion option once you hit 12. If that theory holds up than someone will pick up the number 1 spending school from a disintegrating power conference.
Litehouse, bid spots won't matter when we go to 96, IL is in and so is mu even as a member of a mid-major.
I agree that MU remains attractive if the tournament stays the same, or even goes to 96 bids. MU has clearly shown we're going to compete at the highest level and willing to make the necessary investments.
If MU can stick with a major conference, we'll be fine. If we end up in the basketball-only version of the Big East, or the Catholic Conference, and stay in the same division as the major conferences, we'll still be fine. The problem would be if the football schools decide to form their own division for basketball with their own tournament, and we get left behind in some lesser division. Then we're screwed. That could be a long way off though, if ever. But if a person was cynical, they could see conference reshuffling as the first step in that direction.