MUScoop

Breaking news...my boy mike deane fired at Wagner today. 5-26 this year I believe his record was. He's come a long way since his glory days at MU lol

I was just going to start a thread on this.  Here's the link...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4957743

That's too bad.  This is also why I apply my 4 to 5 year rule when evaluating coaches.  Mike was the cat's meow after 2 and 3 years at MU.   

too bad, i really liked the guy for some reason,,, the intensity and insanity he brought to the court was great.
you gotta love that seatbelt story espn ran on him. priceless

Quote from: 46-47warriorcaptain on March 01, 2010, 07:33:40 PM
too bad, i really liked the guy for some reason,,, the intensity and insanity he brought to the court was great.
you gotta love that seatbelt story espn ran on him. priceless

Seat belt story?  Please elaborate...

Quote from: The Pickle on March 01, 2010, 07:37:21 PM
Seat belt story?  Please elaborate...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/kevin_armstrong/01/04/wagner.buckle/

Hilarious.  Thanks Chicos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyx6-Ln6B3g

no one could call a timeout in the first :20 seconds of a game better than Mike Deane.

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on March 01, 2010, 08:38:33 PM
no one could call a timeout in the first :20 seconds of a game better than Mike Deane.

No one could call two timeouts and sub the entire team in the first 1:30 better than Mike Deane.

Was that AL saying, "Mike Deane's gone bananas out there!" at 1:20?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 01, 2010, 07:09:53 PM
That's too bad.  This is also why I apply my 4 to 5 year rule when evaluating coaches.  Mike was the cat's meow after 2 and 3 years at MU.   

I was at MU in Deane's first 2 years..to say he was the cat's meow is quite strong and an exaggeration.  Most of us weren't thrilled with the NIT Finals game, after seeing KO take us to the Sweet 16 in 1994.  Furthermore, watching the recruits he was bringing in - we all knew the program was going south fast.  So for those who thought he was awesome - they definitely didn't have a very good sense of what it takes to have a successful, high-level basketball team.  Furthermore, Deane said MU was an NIT type program, and didn't have the ability to be NCAA level again.  This is where Tom Creans should get his due, because Deane did torpedo the program.

I too was at Marquette during the Deane years...I liked him...but I remember him saying once that MU just would never be able to attract top blue chippers.  Thank goodness, Tom and Buzz didn't/don't have such low targets.

I am happy Mike Deane is a part of Marquette basketball history. He is a real character.
It truly bums me out that Tom Crean is part of our history.

we'd be in the Horizon or MVC now.

QuoteIt truly bums me out that Tom Crean is part of our history.

Give the man his due, I didn't like his personality either but he did good for MU

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 01, 2010, 09:12:14 PM
I am happy Mike Deane is a part of Marquette basketball history. He is a real character.
It truly bums me out that Tom Crean is part of our history.

So long as the operative word here is history.

Deane sucked .

His off court behavior left a lot to be desired. He was at best a boorish person and an unfit representative of a great Jesuit university. I believe his wife Paula said it best when she voted with her feet.

I was also in school during the Mike Deane years.  The loss to Providence in the NCAA tournament was an embarrassment and many of his recruits would have barely been serviceable in the NAIA ranks.  The moment Deane proclaimed the NIT as a desirable postseason destination he should have been excommunicated from the university.  He was an irascible, pompous jerk who acted like Bob Knight without the results.  At least Deane did achieve a final four appearance in his favorite tournament.  Who the heck strives for mediocrity as the leader of a major basketball team besides Donald Sterling?  Any administration that gives this guy another hoops job should join the next group of overpaid CEO's at their congressional hearing.  We are certainly going to need an explanation!

I say we bring him back for the Louisiville game...let Deane scream at Louisville from the student section with his prescription sunglasses.

Yep, I went to school during the Mike Deane years too.  Because I was an athlete I got to meet him a few times and never paid for a basketball ticket.  He had a great sense of humor, but a horrible coach.  I don't care what anyone says about Crean, it's amazing how fast things around when Deane left. 

I lived also in NYC while he was at Wagner and always talked about going to Wagner game to heckle him.  Never got the energy to get out to Staten Island though.

Fired by Marquette, fired by Lamar, abd now fired by Wagner -- the hat trick. Watching from afar, he seemed to be a pretty good game coach, but couldn't recruit at all. When they used to show him on TV screaming at the team during timeouts, I would think 'recruit better players and you won't have to yell so much.'

Quote from: Fullodds on March 01, 2010, 09:48:17 PM
I say we bring him back for the Louisiville game...let Deane scream at Louisville from the student section with his prescription sunglasses.

Agreed.  Bring him back as the czar of the late night drunken tirade with Zack McCall in tow to mellow everybody back out.  They should at least be offered a segment on the Dennis Krause show.

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 01, 2010, 09:12:14 PM
I am happy Mike Deane is a part of Marquette basketball history. He is a real character.
It truly bums me out that Tom Crean is part of our history.

I really enjoyed our vacation while PRN was on his alleged Scoop retirement. His responses are more predictable than a reflex hammer.

Quote from: Ners on March 01, 2010, 09:03:00 PM
I was at MU in Deane's first 2 years..to say he was the cat's meow is quite strong and an exaggeration.  Most of us weren't thrilled with the NIT Finals game, after seeing KO take us to the Sweet 16 in 1994.  Furthermore, watching the recruits he was bringing in - we all knew the program was going south fast.  So for those who thought he was awesome - they definitely didn't have a very good sense of what it takes to have a successful, high-level basketball team.  Furthermore, Deane said MU was an NIT type program, and didn't have the ability to be NCAA level again.  This is where Tom Creans should get his due, because Deane did torpedo the program.

Your memory is faded.  In year two, MU was 23-8 and 10-4 in CUSA.  Made the conference tournament finals in Memphis where we lost to Cincinnati 85-84 in overtime.  That was the year of the incredible double overtime thriller win at Louisville.  I worked in the athletic department at the time.  People were gaga at the time.  MU had beaten Louisville, Memphis, and Cincinnati in the last two weeks of the season until finally losing to Cincy in the CUSA tournament by one point.

We had a 4 seed in the NCAA tournament and crushed Monmouth by 25 points.  Then we took on Arkansas, the 12 seed.  It was a day where we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and fell by 10 points.  That was a very good team that just played poor that day, but the Deane wagon was in full gear at that point after year two.  Your memory has faded.

Mike was walking on sunshine then.

The next year was the improbable run in St. Louis to win the conference title and get an automatic berth before the annihilation in Charlotte to Providence.  There were definitely some chinks in the armor that year, but the run to get us in the tournament had him loved by most again.

It wasn't until year 4 when things started to go downhill.

I like Mike a ton.  Funny as hell and definitely a character.  But your memory is tainted, he was quite the darling of Marquette his 2nd and 3rd year...a visit to Turners after the games showed how much Milwaukee was behind Mike at the time.

Walking on sunshine??? Still playing the old Katrina and the Waves cassette tape dreaming of the glory years in the ol' Athletic Dept?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2010, 12:23:50 AM
Your memory is faded.  In year two, MU was 23-8 and 10-4 in CUSA.  Made the conference tournament finals in Memphis where we lost to Cincinnati 85-84 in overtime.  That was the year of the incredible double overtime thriller win at Louisville.  I worked in the athletic department at the time.  People were gaga at the time.  MU had beaten Louisville, Memphis, and Cincinnati in the last two weeks of the season until finally losing to Cincy in the CUSA tournament by one point.

We had a 4 seed in the NCAA tournament and crushed Monmouth by 25 points.  Then we took on Arkansas, the 12 seed.  It was a day where we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and fell by 10 points.  That was a very good team that just played poor that day, but the Deane wagon was in full gear at that point after year two.  Your memory has faded.

Mike was walking on sunshine then.

The next year was the improbable run in St. Louis to win the conference title and get an automatic berth before the annihilation in Charlotte to Providence.  There were definitely some chinks in the armor that year, but the run to get us in the tournament had him loved by most again.

It wasn't until year 4 when things started to go downhill.

I like Mike a ton.  Funny as hell and definitely a character.  But your memory is tainted, he was quite the darling of Marquette his 2nd and 3rd year...a visit to Turners after the games showed how much Milwaukee was behind Mike at the time.

More of the same from you.

Just trying to slight Buzz again.

Give it up.

Calling Chicos post negative towards Buzz is a joke.  He is absolutely right regarding Deane.  The Mike Deane bandwagon at MU was completely full during those years.  He was a fantastic game coach and recruited better than many give him credit for.  The well documented "chinks in the armor" certainly existed, but he did have a nice 3 year run. 

PJDunn:  Notice the teal colored font on 2002MUAlum's post?

That means he's being sarcastic.

Quote from: bradforster on March 01, 2010, 09:43:50 PM
He was an irascible, pompous jerk who acted like Bob Knight without the results.  

He absolutely was not a pompous jerk. Did you ever meet the guy?

Pompous might not be correct.  Jerk definitely is.

He became dead to me when he stated that it was not possible to recruit top tier talent to Marquette.  That our academic admissions requirements made it too hard.  He seemed to be an effective game coach.  Off the court, I have no idea.  Though its fun to read about this stuff now.

I guess Athletics couldn't see what every MU alum I know could see. Deane was winning w/KO's players, while bringing in the likes of Polonowski, Bart Miller and Krunti Hester. W/those kind of players coming in, it was only a matter of time until the bottom fell out.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2010, 12:23:50 AM
Your memory is faded.  In year two, MU was 23-8 and 10-4 in CUSA.  Made the conference tournament finals in Memphis where we lost to Cincinnati 85-84 in overtime.  That was the year of the incredible double overtime thriller win at Louisville.  I worked in the athletic department at the time.  People were gaga at the time.  MU had beaten Louisville, Memphis, and Cincinnati in the last two weeks of the season until finally losing to Cincy in the CUSA tournament by one point.

We had a 4 seed in the NCAA tournament and crushed Monmouth by 25 points.  Then we took on Arkansas, the 12 seed.  It was a day where we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and fell by 10 points.  That was a very good team that just played poor that day, but the Deane wagon was in full gear at that point after year two.  Your memory has faded.

Mike was walking on sunshine then.

The next year was the improbable run in St. Louis to win the conference title and get an automatic berth before the annihilation in Charlotte to Providence.  There were definitely some chinks in the armor that year, but the run to get us in the tournament had him loved by most again.

It wasn't until year 4 when things started to go downhill.

I like Mike a ton.  Funny as hell and definitely a character.  But your memory is tainted, he was quite the darling of Marquette his 2nd and 3rd year...a visit to Turners after the games showed how much Milwaukee was behind Mike at the time.

Sorry Chicos, yet another time I disagree..and we have virtually an entire page of previous history not exactly endorsing Deane.  Maybe because of your time working in the Athletic Department you enjoyed being around Deane, you clearly jumped on the Mike Deane bandwagon - only to see it bottom out -explains why you are cautious with Buzz.  That makes a lot of sense actually.  Having said that, it appears you got carried away in that moment, as to not realize that Deane was recruiting marginal, at best players, was to ignore that the program was headed for disaster.  Contrast that with Buzz's recruiting up to this point, and I think it is safer to be a bandwagon fan of Buzz..which as you know, I certainly am - though have been a fan of Buzz since the time he started coaching last year's team. 

And I did have plenty of interaction/observation of Mike Deane at Hegartys, and played golf and pick up ball with Mike Rice quite frequently.  I also coached at MU's basketball camps for 1 summer during Deane's time.  Deane was a mess, but certainly could laugh at/with the guy at times.  To some naive fans, Deane may have been the cat's meow, but most anyone with a long-term take/vision for the program realized he was a disaster.

Quote from: only a warrior on March 02, 2010, 06:27:15 AM
Walking on sunshine??? Still playing the old Katrina and the Waves cassette tape dreaming of the glory years in the ol' Athletic Dept?

;D  They opened up for Bryan Adams and Journey probably 20 years ago at a concert I went to.  I think they played that song like 3 times since it was the only song they really had.

QuoteHaving said that, it appears you got carried away in that moment, as to not realize that Deane was recruiting marginal, at best players, was to ignore that the program was headed for disaster

That's complete revisionist history.  

While it looks ridiculous to say it now, his 2nd class(in year 3) was very well thought of.  Alton Mason was a Top 100 recruit.  Bart Miller was a Street and Smith Honorable Mention All American(aka 100-150), he was considered the 2nd best if not the best player in Kentucky, one of the top players in the midwest, and he ended up choosing MU over offers from Stanford and Tennessee.  John Cliff chose MU over offers from DePaul and Iowa State among others.

Further, his third class included two Top 100 players in Brian Wardle and DeMarcus Minor, and would have included a third Top 100 kid had LeDaryl Billingsley not flaked out.

That it didn't work out makes it very easy to say he was recruiting marginal players.  But it ignores the reality of what was actually going on and the thought at the time.

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 10:16:37 AM
That's complete revisionist history.  

While it looks ridiculous to say it now, his 2nd class(in year 3) was very well thought of.  Alton Mason was a Top 100 recruit.  Bart Miller was a Street and Smith Honorable Mention All American(aka 100-150), he was considered the 2nd best if not the best player in Kentucky, one of the top players in the midwest, and he ended up choosing MU over offers from Stanford and Tennessee.  John Cliff chose MU over offers from DePaul and Iowa State among others.

Further, his third class included two Top 100 players in Brian Wardle and DeMarcus Minor, and would have included a third Top 100 kid had LeDaryl Billingsley not flaked out.

That it didn't work out makes it very easy to say he was recruiting marginal players.  But it ignores the reality of what was actually going on and the thought at the time.

Billingsly would have been a major recruit, but ultimately he flaked...so that would qualify as a near miss.  I do not recall what happened with Alton Mason and DeMarcus Minor - though I don't think they ever made it to campus?  Nor do I recall the reason why they didn't make it on campus.  Nontheless, my personal viewpoint at the time was as I've stated, and from my observation I wasn't too excited about the players that ultimately showed up on campus - Polonowski (fun to drink beer with though), Bargen (decent/Nebraska player of the year), Lovette, or Bart Miller.

Both Mason and Minor made it to campus.  Mason was declared academically ineligible after first semester and left school.  Minor received little playing time until Hutchins' injury, and then he got some minutes.  He ended up transferring after his freshman year.  Too bad, as both were good players.  Mason turned into a very good player at Arizona State, and Minor was All Big 12 at Baylor.

Deane was a great guy.  Bought dinner for our table at Marquette Day in Charlotte ('98?).  Funny as he**.

He was the toast of the town, as has been mentioned.  That's probably what brought him down.  No energy for recruiting.

Good game coach.   Not as bad a recruiter as some overstate. 

While I enjoyed him in the bar, and enjoyed his gameplans...It was time for Mike to go.  If the internet was as ubiquitous as it is now, he wouldn't have made it 2 years.  Can you imagine Mike Deane and a cell phone camera in Turner's.  Now that would have been funny.

Quote from: mu-rara on March 02, 2010, 10:52:19 AM


If the internet was as ubiquitous as it is now, he wouldn't have made it 2 years.  Can you imagine Mike Deane and a cell phone camera in Turner's.  Now that would have been funny.

+1 - - Hilarious...there would have been some great footage, and would have loved to be present if such video surfaced and Father DiUlio had to call him in for a talk.

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 08:25:15 AM
Pompous might not be correct.  Jerk definitely is.

With BMA calling him a jerk I figured it was time to weigh in...

In spring of '96 I was lucky enough to be elected student body Vice President (then ASMU, we changed to MUSG in the fall).  One of the things the President & I wanted to do was implement Midnight Madness. We wanted 18,000 fans at Midnight on ESPN in the BC.  What was so hard about that?  We also wanted general admission seating and gold tee's.  Project 1 though was Midnight Madness.

I sent Mike a letter and he responded within the week with a 3 page hand written letter explaining why MM would not work.  He detailed the post Sweet 16 pep rally & NIT pep rallies and their low turnout.  He talked about how these environments weren't the best encouragement for his players.  But he also agreed to meet with us.  We met at Mike in his office and expected to be ushered out in 5 minutes.  He ended up having us there for 45 minutes, at least.  We bounced ideas off each other.  By the end we agreed to a daytime pep rally in the Old Gym.  He made a few calls to key sponsors while we were in his office.  The meeting also produced the idea to start The Spirit Committee (thankfully renamed SAB).  It was modeled after IU's Student Athletic Board.  A certain poster who works for DirecTv was working for MU at the time and was a big help with set-up as he also went to grad school at IU.

Throughout the '96-'97 school year the Spirit committee did a few more things.  We handed out 500 Gold Deane's List T-Shirts before the Louisville game.  We made our recommendation to the Athletic Department that General Admission be implemented.  Our reasoning was Freshmen were losing interest right away in MU hoops as they would sit in row M of the 400s while hundreds of empty seats were in front of them.  No atmosphere = no returning fans.  We held a tailgate before a UW-MU Soccer game and Mike made an appearance.  With Mike all requests were considered, many were OK'd.

All of what was accomplished was 100% because of Mike's involvement.  He gave us instant creditability within the Ath. Dept.  He pushed that our requests would be made a priority.  He reached into his own pockets on more than one occasion to get something done.

Mike Deane is a lot of things but when I was a student at MU, he was one of the most cooperative and accessible figures on campus.  And a damn good bench coach too.

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 08:25:15 AM
Pompous might not be correct.  Jerk definitely is.

Mike Deane on the road ..... MU had just topped BC at Conte Forum early in the season and the university had previously arranged a post-game alumni gathering at the same facility.  Mike Deane was to be the featured guest and speaker -- fans were pumped, after all MU had won a roadie and optimism was high.

Of course, Mike Deane didn't show.  Instead he sent Father Kelly into the room to announce that the coach was ill and unable to attend. 

Later that night when fans returned to the team hotel and went to the bar guess who was already there?   Yup, Mike Deane.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2010, 12:23:50 AM
Your memory is faded.  In year two, MU was 23-8 and 10-4 in CUSA.  Made the conference tournament finals in Memphis where we lost to Cincinnati 85-84 in overtime.  That was the year of the incredible double overtime thriller win at Louisville.  I worked in the athletic department at the time.  People were gaga at the time.  MU had beaten Louisville, Memphis, and Cincinnati in the last two weeks of the season until finally losing to Cincy in the CUSA tournament by one point.

We had a 4 seed in the NCAA tournament and crushed Monmouth by 25 points.  Then we took on Arkansas, the 12 seed.  It was a day where we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and fell by 10 points.  That was a very good team that just played poor that day, but the Deane wagon was in full gear at that point after year two.  Your memory has faded.

That loss to Arkansas stung more than any loss that I can remember as an MU fan.  (And I am including the last two years when I say that.)  I was living in Milwaukee at the time, and there was just this feeling of momentum and invincibility around that team.  If we would have won, we would have played Calipari's UMass team in the Sweet 16.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 02, 2010, 12:07:41 PM

That loss to Arkansas stung more than any loss that I can remember as an MU fan.  (And I am including the last two years when I say that.)  I was living in Milwaukee at the time, and there was just this feeling of momentum and invincibility around that team.  If we would have won, we would have played Calipari's UMass team in the Sweet 16.

I agree.  That team was absolutely on a roll.  I was working the NCAA tournament in Milwaukee so none of us got to travel with the team, which was a rarity as usually we always did for the NCAAs.  We watched the game as a staff at the Bradley Center in a private room since that day there were no games at the B.C.   What a bummer on all levels.

Of course, if we would have won that game and gone on, who knows what would have happened.  Does LeDaryl Billingsley stay committed to Marquette.  Is Mike Deane around longer?  Is Tom Cream never hired. 

Dominoes

Quote from: NYWarrior on March 02, 2010, 11:59:27 AM
Mike Deane on the road ..... MU had just topped BC at Conte Forum early in the season and the university had previously arranged a post-game alumni gathering at the same facility.  Mike Deane was to be the featured guest and speaker -- fans were pumped, after all MU had won a roadie and optimism was high.

Of course, Mike Deane didn't show.  Instead he sent Father Kelly into the room to announce that the coach was ill and unable to attend. 

Later that night when fans returned to the team hotel and went to the bar guess who was already there?   Yup, Mike Deane.

But this was progress for MU; for KO before him would have been up in his hotel rooming trashing the place.

Quote from: Boone on March 02, 2010, 08:35:28 AM
I guess Athletics couldn't see what every MU alum I know could see. Deane was winning w/KO's players, while bringing in the likes of Polonowski, Bart Miller and Krunti Hester. W/those kind of players coming in, it was only a matter of time until the bottom fell out.

Sure they could see it, but the fans still loved the guy...that's whom I was referencing when I said the Cat's Meow....the fans.  I'd say Bill Cords saw it pretty quickly.  When Billingsley was lost, that was the beginning of the end in my opinion.

This is why I wait 4 or 5 years to evaluate coaches because only then are the players truly purged from the previous regime and it gives a full recruiting class under the new coach to matriculate all the way through. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2010, 01:42:12 PM
Sure they could see it, but the fans still loved the guy...that's whom I was referencing when I said the Cat's Meow....the fans.  I'd say Bill Cords saw it pretty quickly.  When Billingsley was lost, that was the beginning of the end in my opinion.

This is why I wait 4 or 5 years to evaluate coaches because only then are the players truly purged from the previous regime and it gives a full recruiting class under the new coach to matriculate all the way through. 

I couldn't agree more.

In fact, if MU sucked royally this year, I wouldn't be calling for Buzz's head. I promise you that.

We have to give the guy a chance to succeed/fail for a 3-4 year span before we can really evaluate him, positively or negatively.

You guys are completely discounting the fact that Buzz has ALREADY brought in the second and third leading scorers on this year's team, one of which is the #4 ranked player in offensive efficiency in the entire nation. Another of his players has until recently (due to injury/illness)logged the most minutes off the bench. They will still be here in addition to the influx of talent next year. Did Deane make the second tourney runs with three of his own players contributing so heavily?

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 02:05:26 PM
You guys are completely discounting the fact that Buzz has ALREADY brought in the second and third leading scorers on this year's team, one of which is the #4 ranked player in offensive efficiency in the entire nation.

+1

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 02:05:26 PM
You guys are completely discounting the fact that Buzz has ALREADY brought in the second and third leading scorers on this year's team, one of which is the #4 ranked player in offensive efficiency in the entire nation. Another of his players has until recently (due to injury/illness)logged the most minutes off the bench. They will still be here in addition to the influx of talent next year. Did Deane make the second tourney runs with three of his own players contributing so heavily?

Very good points. Butler in my mind is a 2nd team all conference performer and DJO has been as good as any first year player* in the league.

*Freshman or JUCOs... Not transfers, as that would be Johnson at 'Cuse.

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 02:05:26 PM
You guys are completely discounting the fact that Buzz has ALREADY brought in the second and third leading scorers on this year's team, one of which is the #4 ranked player in offensive efficiency in the entire nation. Another of his players has until recently (due to injury/illness)logged the most minutes off the bench. They will still be here in addition to the influx of talent next year. Did Deane make the second tourney runs with three of his own players contributing so heavily?

Pay the man, Shirley.

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 02:05:26 PM
Did Deane make the second tourney runs with three of his own players contributing so heavily?

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. 

In his first two seasons, Deane signed 6 players....Polo, Lovette, Bargen, Mason, Cliff and Miller. 

In his first two seasons, Buzz signed 15...Otule, Fulce, Butler, McMorrow, DJO, Buycks, Williams, Maymon, Roseboro, Mbao, Blue, Smith, Jones, Newbill, Crowder. 

Buzz has essentially remade the roster within under two years, with only three being Crean's players during year two.  Deane still had three O'Neill recruits on the roster in year four. 

So far Buzz's recruiting looks better, but he's also had many more opportunities to get it right than Deane did.

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 02:05:26 PM
You guys are completely discounting the fact that Buzz has ALREADY brought in the second and third leading scorers on this year's team, one of which is the #4 ranked player in offensive efficiency in the entire nation. Another of his players has until recently (due to injury/illness)logged the most minutes off the bench. They will still be here in addition to the influx of talent next year. Did Deane make the second tourney runs with three of his own players contributing so heavily?

Not discounting it, but I believe it's not quite that simple. 

I'm a big big big believer in guards make the world go round in college hoops, especially the point guard.  If the PG can't distribute, the guys can't score.  Watching next year with JC will be the biggest part of the equation to me, followed by who is going to take up for Lazar.

You can't score if you don't have the ball in the right position to score.  Sort of like having an all world receiver but no QB (yes, not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea).

Otule, Fulce, McMorrow, Butler, DJO, Buycks, Cadougan, Williams, Maymon and Roseboro are the only players I was considering since they've already had a chance to enter into in the program. I was intentionally leaving out the players yet to come, as anything can happen with them as we all know. Two of them are absolute studs, and another is a significant contributor off the bench. How does that change my point at all? In year two, two of the top three and three of the top six players are Buzz' guys. Was that the case with Deane? I honestly don't know. Please enlighten me.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2010, 03:31:43 PM
Not discounting it, but I believe it's not quite that simple. 

I'm a big big big believer in guards make the world go round in college hoops, especially the point guard.  If the PG can't distribute, the guys can't score.  Watching next year with JC will be the biggest part of the equation to me, followed by who is going to take up for Lazar.

You can't score if you don't have the ball in the right position to score.  Sort of like having an all world receiver but no QB (yes, not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea).

So are you really saying the only reason DJO and Butler are lighting up the scoreboard is because Acker is creating all their scoring opportunities for them?  That's extremely disingenuous, to say the least.  I like Acker, and he's performing way better than I thought he would, but I'd argue his scoring production is mainly off of DJO and Butler's drive and kick, not the other way around.

Answer the question: did Deane ever make a tourney run with his own players contributing as much as Butler, DJO and Buycks have?  I seriously don't know, I wasn't even in high school yet when he was MU's coach and I grew up halfway across the country.

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 04:04:22 PM
So are you really saying the only reason DJO and Butler are lighting up the scoreboard is because Acker is creating all their scoring opportunities for them?  That's extremely disingenuous, to say the least.  I like Acker, and he's performing way better than I thought he would, but I'd argue his scoring production is mainly off of DJO and Butler's drive and kick, not the other way around.

Answer the question: did Deane ever make a tourney run with his own players contributing as much as Butler, DJO and Buycks have?  I seriously don't know, I wasn't even in high school yet when he was MU's coach and I grew up halfway across the country.

Nope, would never say that is the ONLY reason.  They are extremely talented players.  Each team, however, is different.  We shoot very well from the perimeter (including DJO) and that helps other guys.  Two of those three perimeter guys will move on after this year (Acker and Hayward), how does that affect the team.  

And, as stated before, when we lead the Big East in turnover margin, which I attribute mostly to senior guards who value the ball, what happens next year with a less experienced PG.  That it was what I will be looking for next season.  The kids he has brought it on are very talented but also helped by some of the key parts at other positions.  PG play is essential, just ask UCLA and North Carolina among others this year.

But that's next year, let's get a win in these last two and enjoy the ride.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2010, 04:09:39 PM
Nope, would never say that is the ONLY reason.  They are extremely talented players.  Each team, however, is different.  We shoot very well from the perimeter (including DJO) and that helps other guys.  Two of those three perimeter guys will move on after this year (Acker and Hayward), how does that affect the team.  

And, as stated before, when we lead the Big East in turnover margin, which I attribute mostly to senior guards who value the ball, what happens next year with a less experienced PG.  That it was what I will be looking for next season.  The kids he has brought it on are very talented but also helped by some of the key parts at other positions.  PG play is essential, just ask UCLA and North Carolina among others this year.

But that's next year, let's get a win in these last two and enjoy the ride.

Did Deane ever make a tourney run with his own players contributing as much as Butler, DJO and Buycks have?

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 03:38:45 PM
Otule, Fulce, McMorrow, Butler, DJO, Buycks, Cadougan, Williams, Maymon and Roseboro are the only players I was considering since they've already had a chance to enter into in the program. I was intentionally leaving out the players yet to come, as anything can happen with them as we all know. Two of them are absolute studs, and another is a significant contributor off the bench. How does that change my point at all? In year two, two of the top three and three of the top six players are Buzz' guys. Was that the case with Deane? I honestly don't know. Please enlighten me.

You left out Mbao, but the point remains the same whether you look at who's here or who is coming.  At the same point in their time at MU, Buzz had completed two recruiting cycles and brought in 11 players, where as Deane only had one recruiting cycle(after his first year) and only brought in 3 three players in that class.  Because of the amount of available scholarships, Buzz has a much greater opportunity for success.  Not only that, but he was also working under a much less restrictive regime.  You may not recall, MU used to have an unwritten policy of not allowing the coaches to bring in JUCO players.  Until Crean got here, we hadn't recruited one since the Dukiet days.  So Deane couldn't go out and get anyone like that, while Buzz has been able to bring in 4 of them.

Of the three guys Deane brought in, one never amounted to anything(Polo).  The other two(Lovette and Bargen) became starters and double figure scorers by the end of their respective careers, but at this same point, they hadn't done anything due to the fact that O'Neill left behind far more talent than Crean did.

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 04:32:58 PM
You left out Mbao, but the point remains the same whether you look at who's here or who is coming.  At the same point in their time at MU, Buzz had completed two recruiting cycles and brought in 11 players, where as Deane only had one recruiting cycle(after his first year) and only brought in 3 three players in that class.  Because of the amount of available scholarships, Buzz has a much greater opportunity for success.  Not only that, but he was also working under a much less restrictive regime.  You may not recall, MU used to have an unwritten policy of not allowing the coaches to bring in JUCO players.  Until Crean got here, we hadn't recruited one since the Dukiet days.  So Deane couldn't go out and get anyone like that, while Buzz has been able to bring in 4 of them.

Of the three guys Deane brought in, one never amounted to anything(Polo).  The other two(Lovette and Bargen) became starters and double figure scorers by the end of their respective careers, but at this same point, they hadn't done anything due to the fact that O'Neill left behind far more talent than Crean did.

And you left out Cadougan, but the point remains that I really don't know a single thing about the Deane era, and I respect your recruiting knowledge.  I'm not trying to compare the two recruiting-wise.  I'm addressing the "wait and see" crowd who are comparing the Deane era year two with the Buzz era year two.  I really don't know if Deane ever made a run with his own players, which is why I'm asking.  I think the major flaw in the argument is that Buzz already has a significant amount of his own players contributing at a high level, so I guess I don't understand what they're "waiting to see."

Wasn't Tyrone Baldwin a JUCO under O'Neill?

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 02, 2010, 04:56:44 PM
Wasn't Tyrone Baldwin a JUCO under O'Neill?

He was a Dukiet recruit and played his first year under Piano Bob.  O'Neill came in during Baldwin's second year.

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 04:55:51 PM
And you left out Cadougan, but the point remains that I really don't know a single thing about the Deane era, and I respect your recruiting knowledge.  I'm not trying to compare the two recruiting-wise.  I'm addressing the "wait and see" crowd who are comparing the Deane era year two with the Buzz era year two.  I really don't know if Deane ever made a run with his own players, which is why I'm asking.  I think the major flaw in the argument is that Buzz already has a significant amount of his own players contributing at a high level, so I guess I don't understand what they're "waiting to see."

Mike Davis.

Matt Doherty.

Coach K.

Bruce Weber.


My only point has been that you can't know what a coach is really capable of after only 2 seasons.

If Buzz sucked right now, would you want to fire him?

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 04:55:51 PM
And you left out Cadougan, but the point remains that I really don't know a single thing about the Deane era, and I respect your recruiting knowledge.  I'm not trying to compare the two recruiting-wise.  I'm addressing the "wait and see" crowd who are comparing the Deane era year two with the Buzz era year two.  I really don't know if Deane ever made a run with his own players, which is why I'm asking.  I think the major flaw in the argument is that Buzz already has a significant amount of his own players contributing at a high level, so I guess I don't understand what they're "waiting to see."

I am waiting to see accomplishments.  Honestly, he hasn't really done that much from a completely objective point of view.  I think he has a real good start and is showing good promise, but as he done anything more than a number of coaches out there?

Quote from: Ready2Fly on March 02, 2010, 04:55:51 PM
And you left out Cadougan, but the point remains that I really don't know a single thing about the Deane era, and I respect your recruiting knowledge.  I'm not trying to compare the two recruiting-wise.  I'm addressing the "wait and see" crowd who are comparing the Deane era year two with the Buzz era year two.  I really don't know if Deane ever made a run with his own players, which is why I'm asking.  I think the major flaw in the argument is that Buzz already has a significant amount of his own players contributing at a high level, so I guess I don't understand what they're "waiting to see."

Deane only had two years that you could consider making a run, his second and third.  In his second year, only 3 of the 13 were Deane's recruits, two were back ups, one redshirted.  In his third year, 6 of 14 players were Deane's recruits.  One, Lovette, was a starter.  Two others, Bargen and West, were contributors off the bench.  He didn't have a full roster of his own players until his fifth and final year.

The wait and see attitude comes down to the fact that Buzz has been put in a situation where his guys had to contribute or he would have had major problems.  He only has 3 guys on the roster that aren't his recruits.  Deane didn't have that few until his fourth year.

Quoteam waiting to see accomplishments.  Honestly, he hasn't really done that much from a completely objective point of view.  I think he has a real good start and is showing good promise, but as he done anything more than a number of coaches out there?

Wow... what has he done.. taken a team picked to finish 12th in the BEAST to the verge of a NCAA tournament.  It is one thing to wait and see for 3-4 years.  Which by my count is only 1-2 years out, however to suggest he has not done anything more than a number of coaches out there.. I guess you are correct he has not managed to take a team with the talent of UCONN or NC this year and not make the NCAA's... what he has done with this talent is amazing as our the players.. go get the Cardinals tonight.. tough game..If I did not get the teal correct my first post..

Could not ignore that comment

Quote from: MUBBALL on March 02, 2010, 05:58:48 PM

Wow... what has he done.. taken a team picked to finish 12th in the BEAST to the verge of a NCAA tournament.  It is one thing to wait and see for 3-4 years.  Which by my count is only 1-2 years out, however to suggest he has not done anything more than a number of coaches out there.. I guess you are correct he has not managed to take a team with the talent of UCONN or NC this year and not make the NCAA's... what he has done with this talent is amazing as our the players.. go get the Cardinals tonight.. tough game..If I did not get the teal correct my first post..

He took over a team with senior leadership last year and lost in the second round...mostly due to injury.  He has clearly overaccomplished this year no doubt.  But on the face of it, it really isn't that much.  I am expecting more in the next few years, as I would think you would too.  However, since he hasn't had time to build on what he has started, and hasn't yet had the results to meet the expectations, that is what I said what I did.

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 04:32:58 PM
You may not recall, MU used to have an unwritten policy of not allowing the coaches to bring in JUCO players. 

That's bull. Al thrived on Jucos.

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 05:25:33 PM
Deane only had two years that you could consider making a run, his second and third.  In his second year, only 3 of the 13 were Deane's recruits, two were back ups, one redshirted.  In his third year, 6 of 14 players were Deane's recruits.  One, Lovette, was a starter.  Two others, Bargen and West, were contributors off the bench.  He didn't have a full roster of his own players until his fifth and final year.

The wait and see attitude comes down to the fact that Buzz has been put in a situation where his guys had to contribute or he would have had major problems.  He only has 3 guys on the roster that aren't his recruits.  Deane didn't have that few until his fourth year.

So all but 3 of the guys on this year's team are Buzz recruits and that's why people have a "wait and see" attitude. Please explain what I'm missing as that doesn't make sense to me.

Quote from: TheBudaPest on March 02, 2010, 06:17:05 PM
That's bull. Al thrived on Jucos.

Yeah, and then Raynor, DiUlio and Wild forbid coaches from signing them.  Check your history. We didn't have one from Ty Baldwin in 1989 until Crean went begging to Wild so that he could sign Marcus Jackson in 2003. 

I haven't read all the background so sorry if I'm being redundant but why would Father Wild care if we recruited JUCO kids?

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 05:25:33 PM
Deane only had two years that you could consider making a run, his second and third.  In his second year, only 3 of the 13 were Deane's recruits, two were back ups, one redshirted.  In his third year, 6 of 14 players were Deane's recruits.  One, Lovette, was a starter.  Two others, Bargen and West, were contributors off the bench.  He didn't have a full roster of his own players until his fifth and final year.

The wait and see attitude comes down to the fact that Buzz has been put in a situation where his guys had to contribute or he would have had major problems.  He only has 3 guys on the roster that aren't his recruits.  Deane didn't have that few until his fourth year.

Not sure I see the point in how comparing Buzz and Deane isn't exactly apples to apples - perhaps you could say the 2 situations are in reversed order.  But consider this proposition - if Deane had fewer scholarships to offer, it is the result of his predecessor having balanced recruitinng classes which included talented players..which Deane had the benefit of going on to be successful with for 2 years.  Buzz on the other had was left with perhaps 6 talented players in year 1, but that dropped to 3 players in Year 2.  Also, by virtue of the above logic it clearly shows that as time moved on and Mike Deane became more reliant on his recruits - the results suffered, which leads me to believe his recruiting wasn't very good.  Buzz has had to overcome McMorrow, Maymon, Otule and Cadougan injuries - so let's not give Deane a pass on the would of/could of scenario with Alton Mason, DeMarcus Minor, LeDaryl Billingsly...

Quote from: The Pickle on March 02, 2010, 06:32:15 PM
I haven't read all the background so sorry if I'm being redundant but why would Father Wild care if we recruited JUCO kids?

The university had been embarrassed by the academic issues that the program had under Dukiet, both by JUCOs and non-JUCOs.  So Raynor put his foot down after Tyrone Baldwin in an effort to repair the image of MU basketball's academic reputation.  DiUlio and Wild just continued the policy.

Quote from: MUBBALL on March 02, 2010, 05:58:48 PM

Wow... what has he done.. taken a team picked to finish 12th in the BEAST to the verge of a NCAA tournament.  It is one thing to wait and see for 3-4 years.  Which by my count is only 1-2 years out, however to suggest he has not done anything more than a number of coaches out there.. I guess you are correct he has not managed to take a team with the talent of UCONN or NC this year and not make the NCAA's... what he has done with this talent is amazing as our the players.. go get the Cardinals tonight.. tough game..If I did not get the teal correct my first post..

Could not ignore that comment

+1

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 02, 2010, 06:26:57 PM

So all but 3 of the guys on this year's team are Buzz recruits and that's why people have a "wait and see" attitude. Please explain what I'm missing as that doesn't make sense to me.

I'd have to say you are missing nothing, and agree 100%

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 04:32:58 PM

Of the three guys Deane brought in, one never amounted to anything(Polo).  The other two(Lovette and Bargen) became starters and double figure scorers by the end of their respective careers, but at this same point, they hadn't done anything due to the fact that O'Neill left behind far more talent than Crean did.

A lot of Deane's recruits did great in the classroom after MU. Diggs went to MIT.

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 06:30:02 PM
Yeah, and then Raynor, DiUlio and Wild forbid coaches from signing them.  Check your history. We didn't have one from Ty Baldwin in 1989 until Crean went begging to Wild so that he could sign Marcus Jackson in 2003.  

Are you suggesting that Mike Deane's recruiting woes were the result of his inability to recruit JUCOs?

Honestly, I think it very unlikely Deane would recruit the JUCOs unless he had to. It's no coincidence Deane brought so many coach's son types into the program. He wanted kids whom he perceived would be no trouble for him or academically because, quite frankly, he never seemed the type who wanted to deal with that. It would take away valuable barfly time. Or maybe the one time he took a chance on a risky kid, i.e. Alton Mason, it bit him in the behind.
Regardless, it seems misleading at best to argue that this so-called JUCO policy somehow slowed the Mike Deane Recruiting Express.

He was a lousy, lousy, lousy recruiter and all the citations to Street and Smith's lists, etc., doesn't change that. For starters, he landed very few nationally ranked players over his five recruiting classes (one, albeit, incomplete). And the few he did land mostly  proved unworthy of such standing (I'm looking at you, Bart Miller).
Would it not be fair to suggest that part of recruiting is not only landing highly ranked talent, but recognizing which of that talent truly deserves the ranking?
Likewise, part of recruiting is closing the deal. It doesn't end with the verbal, so I can't understand why people continue to act as if he were a victim in the Billingsley saga. Mike didn't close the deal after getting a verbal. Maybe not entirely his fault, but he's far from blameless.
The bottom line is in five years, Deane only brought (and kept) two all-conference caliber players to Marquette. Seems to me, Buzz already has landed at least two.

No, I'm suggesting you can't compare the recruiting of the two because they weren't playing on anything close to a level playing field.  Buzz has the Al, the Big East, the private planes, the expanded budget, the ability to sign JUCOs etc.  Deane didn't.

QuoteHonestly, I think it very unlikely Deane would recruit the JUCOs unless he had to. It's no coincidence Deane brought so many coach's son types into the program. He wanted kids whom he perceived would be no trouble for him or academically because, quite frankly, he never seemed the type who wanted to deal with that. It would take away valuable barfly time. Or maybe the one time he took a chance on a risky kid, i.e. Alton Mason, it bit him in the behin

That's simply not true.  He tried time and time again to get guys that might be perceived as trouble makers, but could never get them to commit, or had problems when they did.  The "coaches kid" thing was the result of missing out on other guys, not his strategy.

QuoteWould it not be fair to suggest that part of recruiting is not only landing highly ranked talent, but recognizing which of that talent truly deserves the ranking?

It would.  And of the 5 nationally ranked players he got, there's only one you could say didn't deserve the ranking they had, Bart Miller.  Wardle deserved it.  Henry deserved it.  Look at what Mason and Minor did once they got a chance at other high majors, they deserved the ranking as well. 

Look I'm not saying he was a great recruiter.  But the notion that he was terrible is completely overblown.

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 06:41:11 PM
The university had been embarrassed by the academic issues that the program had under Dukiet, both by JUCOs and non-JUCOs.  So Raynor put his foot down after Tyrone Baldwin in an effort to repair the image of MU basketball's academic reputation.  DiUlio and Wild just continued the policy.

Was Tyrone Baldwin a problem?  Or just a perceived problem?

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 06:41:11 PM
The university had been embarrassed by the academic issues that the program had under Dukiet, both by JUCOs and non-JUCOs.  So Raynor put his foot down after Tyrone Baldwin in an effort to repair the image of MU basketball's academic reputation.  DiUlio and Wild just continued the policy.

Got it.  Thanks for the explanation.

Reading about Deane yesterday I ended up on his wikipedia page (yeah, I know take it for what its worth)  and found the last paragraph interesting:

Mike has produced two NBA products in his career (both at Marquette, Chris Crawford-ATL, Amal McCaskil). Mike also recruited Dwyane Wade at Marquette, but left the program the year Wade came to Marquette

Did Deane really start the Wade recruitment?  Or was that all TC? (not intended as a thread hijack)...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Deane

Deane will also always have his bobblehead to look back on...

http://www.collegeinsider.com/coach/bob_marlin/

Mike Deane Relieved of his Head Coaching Duties at Wagner College


3/1/2010 4:55:17 PM
Staten Island, NY – Mike Deane has been relieved of his duties as head men's basketball coach at Wagner College, Director of Athletics Walt Hameline announced today.

In seven seasons as head coach of the Seahawks, Deane compiled an overall record of 95-114. This past season, the Green & White finished with a 5-26 overall record, including a mark of 3-15 in the Northeast Conference. In 26 years as a head coach, Deane has amassed a record of 437-332.

"We thank Mike for his contributions as head basketball coach at Wagner," said Hameline. "I admire him greatly as a human being and for the knowledge, competitiveness and passion he brought to the program. At the end of the day, I decided it was time make a change and go in a different direction.

Old news.
Was in the JournalSentinel 10 days ago.

And it's Mike DeanE

Quote from: Marquette08 on March 12, 2010, 02:39:36 PM
Mike Deane Relieved of his Head Coaching Duties at Wagner College


3/1/2010 4:55:17 PM
Staten Island, NY – Mike Deane has been relieved of his duties as head men's basketball coach at Wagner College, Director of Athletics Walt Hameline announced today.

In seven seasons as head coach of the Seahawks, Deane compiled an overall record of 95-114. This past season, the Green & White finished with a 5-26 overall record, including a mark of 3-15 in the Northeast Conference. In 26 years as a head coach, Deane has amassed a record of 437-332.

"We thank Mike for his contributions as head basketball coach at Wagner," said Hameline. "I admire him greatly as a human being and for the knowledge, competitiveness and passion he brought to the program. At the end of the day, I decided it was time make a change and go in a different direction.

Any hear the Saints won the Superbowl?  It was awesome.

Quote from: bma725 on March 02, 2010, 03:18:56 PM
Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. 

In his first two seasons, Deane signed 6 players....Polo, Lovette, Bargen, Mason, Cliff and Miller. 

In his first two seasons, Buzz signed 15...Otule, Fulce, Butler, McMorrow, DJO, Buycks, Williams, Maymon, Roseboro, Mbao, Blue, Smith, Jones, Newbill, Crowder. 

Buzz has essentially remade the roster within under two years, with only three being Crean's players during year two.  Deane still had three O'Neill recruits on the roster in year four. 

So far Buzz's recruiting looks better, but he's also had many more opportunities to get it right than Deane did.

Technically, Otule and Fulce were under LOI and Williams had already verballed to MU the day Buzz was named head coach.  Not saying that Buzz wasn't involved in their recruitment, but its misleading to say he did that all in two years--he's really been recruiting for MU for three years--one as an assistant, two as head coach.

In fact, I think Buzz's prior status as an MU assistant makes any direct Buzz to Deane comparison misleading. 

At the time he was hired, Buzz was already recruiting players for MU for the 2008, 2009, 2010 recruiting classes and beyond.  Upon becoming head coach, he already he had the relationships started with the recruits, their parents, and their coaches. 

At the time Deane was hired, his relationships with players/coaches/parents that he had built at Siena were not as useful in his role MU.