MUScoop

Can't believe we didn't foul them and gave them that wide open look, but I'll take it.

Need another road win and hold serve at home.

We just won a clutch game on the road and you have to hedge your praise with criticism of the coach.  You are so annoying.

Bottom line...a win is a win!

Love this team.  What heart!

Props to Jimmy Butler for pulling in that pass for the dunk.  If that goes out of bounds, it's absolute disaster.

Right in the middle Chicos. Kind of gathering the consensus in the coaching circles is more than 10 seconds, don't foul, less than 5 seconds, foul.

Quote from: CrazyEcho on February 21, 2010, 03:24:22 PM
We just won a clutch game on the road and you have to hedge your praise with criticism of the coach.  You are so annoying.

Stop.  It's the wrong call.  When you have one of the worst teams in America shooting the free throw, you foul them at the end.  Same thing Syracuse did so well the other night against G'Town.  You don't even give them the chance.  That was a wide open 3 point look and we got lucky it didn't go in.

I'm thrilled with the win, I think the strategy on that last play was wrong and I'm not the only one that will think that way.

But it's a win and I'm thrilled with it.  I don't care who the coach is, you foul before they even get into 3 point shooting mode with a team like Cincinnati.  That is the proper call, even someone with a "poor basketball IQ" knows that.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2010, 03:23:39 PM
Can't believe we didn't foul them and gave them that wide open look, but I'll take it.

Need another road win and hold serve at home.

Agree.  Cincy had an open three and it just went off rim.  That would have been a dagger.

But, great comeback after a 26 to 2 run by Cincy.  

Buzz basically played a six man rotation today with Buycks and Junior getting only a few minutes.  Fulce only one off bench with significant time and didn't play last 10 minutes.  

Speaking of free throws, what did we end up with?  18-19 from the line?  Unbelievable performance on the road. 

Good point Chicos...settle down Echo.  You'll hear that same argument whether to foul up by 3 a million times from now until the end of the tourney.  It's a good debate, has nothing to do with Buzz Williams.  I thinkit comes down to how many seconds are left before you foul.  I would have fouled as well in that situation (only 7 seconds left).  There's always the risk the other team gets an offensive rebound off a missed FT.  I remember Crean getting criticized for that strategy as well for not fouling.  Most coaches don't.  

Fulce showed big in this game..  his best game yet on the offensive end.

Gotta agree with Chicos on this one. I was screaming at the Cincinnati radio stream (for some reason, ESPN Milwaukee was carrying ESPN news radio) for Buzz to call for the foul at the end.

Quote from: Eye on February 21, 2010, 03:27:52 PM
Right in the middle Chicos. Kind of gathering the consensus in the coaching circles is more than 10 seconds, don't foul, less than 5 seconds, foul.

Considering they had to go full length of the court and considering how bad a free throw shooting team UC is, I think most coaches would foul in those circumstances.

Great win by MU.

Glad to see the Seniors do so well the last 10 minutes of the game.  Buycks, did he play more than 5 minutes? 

Fulce had a great game, not sure why he didn't play more in the second half.  Buzz's bench is getting even smaller.

I agree Chicos, but the way we have gotten burned on inbound plays I'll take my chances on the 3.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2010, 03:28:26 PM
Stop.  It's the wrong call.  When you have one of the worst teams in America shooting the free throw, you foul them at the end.  Same thing Syracuse did so well the other night against G'Town.  You don't even give them the chance.  That was a wide open 3 point look and we got lucky it didn't go in.

I'm thrilled with the win, I think the strategy on that last play was wrong and I'm not the only one that will think that way.

But it's a win and I'm thrilled with it.  I don't care who the coach is, you foul before they even get into 3 point shooting mode with a team like Cincinnati.  That is the proper call, even someone with a "poor basketball IQ" knows that.

Then why don't the vast majority of NCAA and NBA coaches do that?  You think Buzz hasn't crunched the numbers and tried to figure out the optimal play there?  

Option one:

Play perimeter defense, knowing that the have to shoot a three so you don't have to respect a dribble drive.  

Option two:

You give them a chance to make one free throw (assume it's one of their worst free throw shooters, a 50% proposition), intentionally miss the second, and then let one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the country have a chance for a put back?

You can take option two with your team, the people who actually run basketball programs will take option two.  

Hopefully they'll ask Buzz the question in the post game...

I don't think Buzz is dumb and if idiots like us can think up these genius end game plans I'm sure he can.

Buzz definitely plays it traditional at the end of games, he's responsible for W's, it better work out ultimately.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2010, 03:32:07 PM
Considering they had to go full length of the court and considering how bad a free throw shooting team UC is, I think most coaches would foul in those circumstances.

Great win by MU.

Glad to see the Seniors do so well the last 10 minutes of the game.  Buycks, did he play more than 5 minutes? 

Fulce had a great game, not sure why he didn't play more in the second half.  Buzz's bench is getting even smaller.

When did you want MU to foul on the last play?  I was looking for the same thing, but I felt they needed to let Cincy take a few seconds to get the ball past half court, then Hayward had an opportunity to foul, but it was a tough position for him to be in, as the Cincy player could have put up a shot rather than passing.  

yea it was the wrong call to not foul that team esp. given that they cant shoot well from the line.  

i hate when coaches do that, but i think it might be hard for them to play the numbers game and foul when they feel like they want to hold the team with pure defense.  that was scary and i cannot believe it didnt drop the way things have gone for us in these super close games.  but wow ill take it , and now ill have to get some nitro tabs for the angina that im experiencing after that game

Chicos & Shack & Eye are right on this one.  Should have fouled with <5 secs to go, absolutely.

You act like we are a great defensive rebounding team.

I'd say Cincy is 30% from 3 and that ain't bad.

Poll added.  We'll settle this the internets way: with a meaningless poll!

Quote from: muwarrior69 on February 21, 2010, 03:33:57 PM
I agree Chicos, but the way we have gotten burned on inbound plays I'll take my chances on the 3.

Agree that I'm not so sure with our team it's an easy call to make one way or the other.  First, you have to execute the foul cleanly.  Then, if they make the second free throw we have to inbound the ball with no timeouts, and 4-5 seconds is probably too long to throw it long and not care if it's a turnover.  If they miss the second free throw we have to be able to pull down the rebound.  For most teams I'd recommend the foul, for ours, given that we subject ourselves to things we're particularly weak at I don't think the chance that we coast through all of that other risky business is any different than the chance they miss the three.

Quote from: CrazyEcho on February 21, 2010, 03:24:22 PM
We just won a clutch game on the road and you have to hedge your praise with criticism of the coach.  You are so annoying.

+1

Most coaches would not foul.  too may bad thing could happen.

according to kenpom.com, St. Johns lets opponents achieve a free throw percentage of 71%, one of the worst in the nation at the defending the defenseless. THe good free throw shooting should continue.

Quote from: boyonthedock on February 21, 2010, 03:46:49 PM
according to kenpom.com, St. Johns lets opponents achieve a free throw percentage of 71%, one of the worst in the nation at the defending the defenseless. THe good free throw shooting should continue.

Yeah, I've heard their free-throw defense is awful.

With Buzz being such a big numbers guy, I'd guess this is something he's figured out in the offseason with a formula. Plug in the opponents 3-point percentage, FT percentage, whether it's one-and-one, etc. and have a decision based upon that when you're in that 5- to 10-second middle ground. It's something I'd want to have decided ahead of time before the game depending upon on the opponent.

I was never a fan of the last second fould in cases like this - too many variables with stopping the clock, rebounds, etc.  They had to defend the arc - but we did let them get an open three in the final seconds, which was frustrating.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2010, 03:28:26 PM
Stop.  It's the wrong call.  When you have one of the worst teams in America shooting the free throw, you foul them at the end.  Same thing Syracuse did so well the other night against G'Town.  You don't even give them the chance.  That was a wide open 3 point look and we got lucky it didn't go in.

I'm thrilled with the win, I think the strategy on that last play was wrong and I'm not the only one that will think that way.

But it's a win and I'm thrilled with it.  I don't care who the coach is, you foul before they even get into 3 point shooting mode with a team like Cincinnati.  That is the proper call, even someone with a "poor basketball IQ" knows that.

I would normally agree with you but we are so small and struggle so much with defensive rebounding that I think this MU team is an exception.

I just don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it Chicos. You could be right, and I don't think enough coaches consider it.

But I think there's a good argument with this particular matchup not to foul. MU is third in the conference in 3-point D, Cincy is 15th in the conference in 3-point percentage. UC also is tops in the Big East in offensive rebounding percentage. With a bigger team against a team like cuse that shoots the 3 well but doesn't shoot FTs well, I'd go for it. Less than 5 seconds, yes. If the other team is in the 1-and-1 (I assume Cincy was shooting 2 by that point), yes. But maybe not in this particular spot.

Quote from: CrazyEcho on February 21, 2010, 03:34:17 PM
Then why don't the vast majority of NCAA and NBA coaches do that?  You think Buzz hasn't crunched the numbers and tried to figure out the optimal play there?  

Option one:

Play perimeter defense, knowing that the have to shoot a three so you don't have to respect a dribble drive.  

Option two:

You give them a chance to make one free throw (assume it's one of their worst free throw shooters, a 50% proposition), intentionally miss the second, and then let one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the country have a chance for a put back?

You can take option two with your team, the people who actually run basketball programs will take option two.  

I guess Jim Boeheim, potential National Coach of the Year disagrees with you.  Same situation the other night, on the road at G'Town.  He fouls G'Town immediately, before they even get up past the half court. 

If that 3 had gone in.....ugh.  Season killer.   

It was wide open.  Why give a kid a chance to make a wide open 3 vs having this scenario

Kid gets two free throws, has to make BOTH, have MU in bound the ball, foul MU, hope MU misses free throws and then go the length of the court to tie or win.   

OR

Make one free throw, miss the second, get the rebound, score....you're asking a ton.

There's just so much more that you have to do in either of the other two scenarios.

I'm going with the foul in most situations, especially with a Cincinnati team that can't shoot free throws and considering the time on the clock. 

It's not something I would do EVERY TIME, but in this case, with this UC team, I would have.  I'm just glad the kid missed a wide open three or that would have been a killer dagger and all the momentum on their squad going to OT #2.


Interesting articles on the subject...I'll go with the numbers.  Foul the guy


http://howtowatchsports.com/2010/02/by-the-numbers-to-foul-or-not-to-foul-when-up-by-three/


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n9_v221/ai_19182458/

*deleted

chicos thinks all analogies are apples to apples when it offers an opportunity to rip on Buzz.  Syracuse fouling with a 3 point lead is completely different han Mu fouling.  Syracuse can go 6'10 250 and 6'10 250 on the low blocks on amissed rebound.  we go 6'6 on both sides  they can put ibrahima and another 6'10 guy there.  I think after watching Cincy offensive rebound the ball and put it back in all day long not fouling is the thing to do.  We are not syracuse, we do not have their size and we do not rebound like them or come anywhere near Cincinattis's size.  comparing us to syracuse in the ability to rebound the basketball is stupid

edit: No personal attacks.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2010, 05:10:38 PM
I guess Jim Boeheim, potential National Coach of the Year disagrees with you.  Same situation the other night, on the road at G'Town.  He fouls G'Town immediately, before they even get up past the half court. 

If that 3 had gone in.....ugh.  Season killer.   

It was wide open.  Why give a kid a chance to make a wide open 3 vs having this scenario

Kid gets two free throws, has to make BOTH, have MU in bound the ball, foul MU, hope MU misses free throws and then go the length of the court to tie or win.   

OR

Make one free throw, miss the second, get the rebound, score....you're asking a ton.

There's just so much more that you have to do in either of the other two scenarios.

I'm going with the foul in most situations, especially with a Cincinnati team that can't shoot free throws and considering the time on the clock. 

It's not something I would do EVERY TIME, but in this case, with this UC team, I would have.  I'm just glad the kid missed a wide open three or that would have been a killer dagger and all the momentum on their squad going to OT #2.


Interesting articles on the subject...I'll go with the numbers.  Foul the guy


http://howtowatchsports.com/2010/02/by-the-numbers-to-foul-or-not-to-foul-when-up-by-three/


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n9_v221/ai_19182458/

If I had Boeheim's 6'11" and 6'10" wide body studs to rebound a missed free throw I would foul every time in that situation. With our midgets no way. We ROUTINELY give up offensive rebounds off missed free throws. Because of that I wouldn't give them the chance to tie or worse yet beat us with an offensive rebound.

Quote from: Nukem2 on February 21, 2010, 03:44:29 PM
Most coaches would not foul.  too may bad thing could happen.

My limited experience watching games tells me this is the case.

Chico, what would Crean do?    Since we all know that whatever he does is the best.   

I don't see a purpose of extending the game when you are winning.

I can see why you would do it when losing, but fouling when winning just brings up a whole new set of circumstances.  If you don't foul they either make the shot or don't.  If you foul they can get rebound, you can get rebound and fouled with less than a second tick off and have a big-who probably isn't a good ft shooter take shots-etc.

I wouldn't foul.  I'd MAKE THEM MAKE A HELLUVA PLAY.