MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: MU_4_Life on January 26, 2010, 08:52:02 PM
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Is Tom Crean on the clock?
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/2558/is-tom-crean-on-the-clock
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IU fans growing impatient!
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/2558/is-tom-crean-on-the-clock
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He should be on the clock, his recruiting sucks. As the story says, he still does not have a top 25 recruiting class this year despite having playing time to hand out. (MU #18)
Look at Memphis, one could argue that Cal left "almost" as big a mess as IU had (again, "almost") yet it took Pastner about 15 minutes to reload. Crean has been there almost two years and is still firing blanks.
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Its Indiana!
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Crean has been there almost two years and is still firing blanks.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n254/faustus777/TheOffice-ThatsWhatSheSaid-Michael.jpg)
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He should be on the clock, his recruiting sucks. As the story says, he still does not have a top 25 recruiting class this year despite having playing time to hand out. (MU #18)
Look at Memphis, one could argue that Cal left "almost" as big a mess as IU had (again, "almost") yet it took Pastner about 15 minutes to reload. Crean has been there almost two years and is still firing blanks.
Do you think that Memphis allows certain kids in that IU doesn't? Just asking.
I think people need to re-read the article....sure looks to me like he's saying he's going to get many years to prove this out.
I'm looking forward to collecting on my bet from Rocky.
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Meanwhile, Marquette is 12-8 with 8 losses by an average margin of 3 points. Nice Upgrade
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I'm certain as time goes on, IU fans will grow increasingly tired of the same old rhetoric and of Crean tooting his own greg.
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He should be on the clock, his recruiting sucks. As the story says, he still does not have a top 25 recruiting class this year despite having playing time to hand out. (MU #18)
Look at Memphis, one could argue that Cal left "almost" as big a mess as IU had (again, "almost") yet it took Pastner about 15 minutes to reload. Crean has been there almost two years and is still firing blanks.
In fairness to Crean, he had a much worse mess than what Calipari left at Memphis for Pastner. Crean was left with 1 scholarship player and a couple of walk-ons. Memphis lost a recruiting class and Tyreke Evans, but still had some talent on that roster. I'm still not sure Pastner can coach, but he is one helluva recruiter, and talent these days is huge.
The thing befuddling me with Crean, though, is how was Crean able to get 15-14 out of his first two Marquette teams with arguably less talent, yet is struggling so badly with this year's Indiana team (I don't count last year because John Wooden wouldn't have gone .500 with Crean's Indiana roster in 2008-2009). He's pulling in similarly ranked recruiting classes at IU that he did at Marquette so far. and that will probably improve a bit. Maybe not top 5-10 classes, but probably a top 15 class within the next year or two.
If I'm an IU fan, I'm more disconcerted with how he's utilized the talent he has this year than his recruiting at this point. They should not be losing home games to Boston University and Loyola Maryland and getting blown out by 15 vs. Iowa.
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Do you think that Memphis allows certain kids in that IU doesn't? Just asking.
I think people need to re-read the article....sure looks to me like he's saying he's going to get many years to prove this out.
I'm looking forward to collecting on my bet from Rocky.
I'm not sure what you read in that article, to me it sounds like fans are already getting upset. Always seems odd to me when people promise they will be upset by this time next year. That being said, his expectations aren't through the roof, apparently IU fans have lowered their aim a little bit.
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IU faithful expected Crean to do what Cal did at Kentucky ... April 1, 2008 announces he's going to IU. April 2 he had the #1 recruiting class in the country and would have to turn away McDonald AAs.
And how did Crean go 15-14 with less talent in his first two years at MU? Answer ... Darrin Horn!
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In fairness to Crean, he had a much worse mess than what Calipari left at Memphis for Pastner. Crean was left with 1 scholarship player and a couple of walk-ons. Memphis lost a recruiting class and Tyreke Evans, but still had some talent on that roster. I'm still not sure Pastner can coach, but he is one helluva recruiter, and talent these days is huge.
The thing befuddling me with Crean, though, is how was Crean able to get 15-14 out of his first two Marquette teams with arguably less talent, yet is struggling so badly with this year's Indiana team (I don't count last year because John Wooden wouldn't have gone .500 with Crean's Indiana roster in 2008-2009). He's pulling in similarly ranked recruiting classes at IU that he did at Marquette so far. and that will probably improve a bit. Maybe not top 5-10 classes, but probably a top 15 class within the next year or two.
If I'm an IU fan, I'm more disconcerted with how he's utilized the talent he has this year than his recruiting at this point. They should not be losing home games to Boston University and Loyola Maryland and getting blown out by 15 vs. Iowa.
You are correct that for the first guy to say they are almost the same situation is laughable. IU returned not only just one player, but he averaged less than 2 points per game and played a TOTAL of 36 minutes all year. Memphis returned so much more, plus actual DI players in recruits that the comparison is ridiculous, even if disguised as "almost" the same.
In my opinion, the difference between Crean in years 1 and 2 at MU vs where he is at IU is two fold.
1) The IU team is almost all freshmen and sophomores, including his best player with a blown out knee that can't play. His MU team had some veterans on that team including John Cliff and Brian Wardle. He has no such leadership with that type of experience on this IU team.
2) MU was in CUSA at the time, not like he is now in the Big Ten. Going up against SLU, Southern Miss, Houston and Tulane is different than having to face Michigan State, Wisconsin, Illinois, Ohio State, etc. So the record will suffer.
The university is on the hook with him for a lot of years. They'll be NIT next year and NCAA the year after. I'll collect my debt from Rocky in the process. ;)
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I'm not sure what you read in that article, to me it sounds like fans are already getting upset. Always seems odd to me when people promise they will be upset by this time next year. That being said, his expectations aren't through the roof, apparently IU fans have lowered their aim a little bit.
Really...because one guy, Matt Snyder says so? Who are all these fans? At the end of the day, the administration there will decide.
And no Another84, IU fans not only didn't expect Crean to do what Calipari did, they don't WANT him to do that. IU has a very proud tradition of doing things the RIGHT WAY. This is why they were so scarred by what Sampson had done. They hate UK for how they have done things the last 50 years. The reason why Crean was brought in there was to win and to win the right way.
I'm an alum, I worked in the IU Athletic Department. I know intimately how it works. Your comments about Memphis and UK are so foreign to how IU runs things, you're totally out in left field with those comments. TOTALLY!
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You are correct that for the first guy to say they are almost the same situation is laughable. IU returned not only just one player, but he averaged less than 2 points per game and played a TOTAL of 36 minutes all year. Memphis returned so much more, plus actual DI players in recruits that the comparison is ridiculous, even if disguised as "almost" the same.
IU returned a lot more talent. The problem is that talent was throwing plants at Crean.
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Having read some IU boards, there is a discontent contingent out there, but most are just pleased to have someone stable at the helm.
Revisit the situation 3 years from now.
- If IU can't shake the middle of the pack, then the boo birds will be more evident.
- If some of his assistants depart for better positions, then maybe his team will become weaker...less cohesive. Much like at MU when assistants Strohm (W Kentucky), Horn (W Kentucky), Kowalczyk (UWGB), and Stephens (MSU) left, there were huge voids to fill.
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IU returned a lot more talent. The problem is that talent was throwing plants at Crean.
Are you devoid of facts today.
Crean's first year they returned ONE PLAYER who played 36 minutes total and averaged less than 2 points. How is that "a LOT MORE TALENT" than Pastner had at Memphis in his first year when Pastner returned:
Doneal Mack started 32 games last year....that already blows your argument to hell
Plus Duke transfer Eliott Williams that didn't have to sit out a year due to his mom's illness.
You're reaching. No way in hell IU in year one had more talent than Pastner's Memphis year one, it's not even close.
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Having read some IU boards, there is a discontent contingent out there, but most are just pleased to have someone stable at the helm.
Revisit the situation 3 years from now.
- If IU can't shake the middle of the pack, then the boo birds will be more evident.
- If some of his assistants depart for better positions, then maybe his team will become weaker...less cohesive. Much like at MU when assistants Strohm (W Kentucky), Horn (W Kentucky), Kowalczyk (UWGB), and Stephens (MSU) left, there were huge voids to fill.
Don't judge a fanbase by a message board. ;)
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Are you devoid of facts today.
Crean's first year they returned ONE PLAYER who played 36 minutes total and averaged less than 2 points. How is that "a LOT MORE TALENT" than Pastner had at Memphis in his first year when Pastner returned:
Doneal Mack started 32 games last year....that already blows your argument to hell
Plus Duke transfer Eliott Williams that didn't have to sit out a year due to his mom's illness.
You're reaching. No way in hell IU in year one had more talent than Pastner's Memphis year one, it's not even close.
I wasn't comparing IU to Memphis in this example, that's you defending Crean. I was comparing it to your statement. Crean dismissed a lot of returning players including those that threw plants at his head.
It wasn't as bleak as you make it sound. Crean used his position and grace period to clean house. Was that the right thing to do? Maybe but he's paying the price now. But, let's not defend his decision to send players packing as "he had no one." He did but sent them away.
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I wasn't comparing IU to Memphis in this example, that's you defending Crean. I was comparing it to your statement. Crean dismissed a lot of returning players including those that threw plants at his head.
It wasn't as bleak as you make it sound. Crean used his position and grace period to clean house. Was that the right thing to do? Maybe but he's paying the price now. But, let's not defend his decision to send players packing as "he had no one." He did but sent them away.
AnotherMU84, I don't like Crean either, but let's be realistic here: do you realize the type of crap he had to deal with when he got to IU?
Some of the stuff that came out after Crean left with the IU program (which made us scratch our heads even more as to why he left) included allegations that most of the team was using drugs during the 2007-2008 season (from Eric Gordon and D.J. White), several players would have been academically ineligible (remember, IU lost scholarships from the APR rating they had under Sampson). and of course, the bizarre Eli Holman incident (of which I think there probably is some culpability on Crean). And there was also talk that IU was facing big-time NCAA sanctions, which luckily for them was only a slap on the wrist because they bought out Sampson.
Crean had to clean house. Because if he didn't, I'm sure the NCAA would have done it for him slapping guys with drug/academic suspensions. I'll give him credit for doing that there and holding character in such high esteem during his tenure at Marquette.
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Don't judge a fanbase by a message board. ;)
But go to the heartland and learn that II fans are learning the same lesson that marquette fans learned. He's gone at the end of 2012.
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I wasn't comparing IU to Memphis in this example, that's you defending Crean. I was comparing it to your statement. Crean dismissed a lot of returning players including those that threw plants at his head.
It wasn't as bleak as you make it sound. Crean used his position and grace period to clean house. Was that the right thing to do? Maybe but he's paying the price now. But, let's not defend his decision to send players packing as "he had no one." He did but sent them away.
You obviously have no clue what was going on in that Athletic Department. I do. He had NO CHOICE but to kick off most of those players.
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But go to the heartland and learn that II fans are learning the same lesson that marquette fans learned. He's gone at the end of 2012.
What lesson was that....that we had the 2nd greatest run of any coach in MU history? He may be gone by 2012, but I doubt it. If so, I'll still collect on my bet. A lot of you have absolutely no idea how bad it was inside of the athletic department and what had to be done. The IU administration knows that. He doesn't have a leash forever, but he's got a damn long one considering what had to be done. That's why they threw a few extra million and years on his contract before his first season even started. The stories are really bad what was going on over there under Sampson. Dreadful
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In general, Indiana fans are a lot more knowledgable basketball fans than MU fans and they do not suffer fools gladly. His schtick is wearing thin already. The purposeful pacing, the awkward and overzealous sideline "demeanor," the below average recruiting, the complete absence of even an ounce of charisma.
Do not doubt for a second that he regrets his decision to leave his cushy lair in Milwaukee. My guess? He'll be gone from Bloomington before Buzz leaves Milwaukee.
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If Josh Selby end up at IU, it saves Crean. If he doesn't get Selby, then that PG from Indianapolis, Maquis Teague, is a must get for Crean. If he loses out on both of those kids, then the fan base loses patience. Until then, Crean is probably safe. That kid Creek is really good and IU will continue to improve.
IU fans should not be too surpised though. He never had good back to back recruiting classes and he is not going to out coach anyone during the games, so they are going to be games where you lose to Iowa (albeit by 15 at home is pretty crazy).
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What lesson was that....that we had the 2nd greatest run of any coach in MU history? He may be gone by 2012, but I doubt it. If so, I'll still collect on my bet. A lot of you have absolutely no idea how bad it was inside of the athletic department and what had to be done. The IU administration knows that. He doesn't have a leash forever, but he's got a damn long one considering what had to be done. That's why they threw a few extra million and years on his contract before his first season even started. The stories are really bad what was going on over there under Sampson. Dreadful
The lesson is that he's all sizzle and no steak. Yes, he served Marquette well. Yes, we did well, very well. At a certain point it was time for him to move on though, although I didn't realize it at the time, but now I think MU is better off with Buzz. I'll agree he has a long leash, but let's not forget this is IU, where patience from the community is commensurate with tournament wins.
Edit: I also thought the part in the article referencing Crean's addiction to diet coke was pretty funny.
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Rican is perceptive and dead on. Just watch this cat on the sidelines during games. It's a show in itself. Either his act is completely choreographed or he doesn't take his Ritalin on gamedays.
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If Josh Selby end up at IU, it saves Crean. If he doesn't get Selby, then that PG from Indianapolis, Maquis Teague, is a must get for Crean. If he loses out on both of those kids, then the fan base loses patience. Until then, Crean is probably safe.
Though I don't see Selby ending up at IU, the larger point is accurate and what its all about for Crean. If the best players in the state escape, his goose will be cooked (especially if Teague ends up at Purdue or UK). He's done 'ok' but there are some big fish out there.
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Though I don't see Selby ending up at IU, the larger point is accurate and what its all about for Crean. If the best players in the state escape, his goose will be cooked (especially if Teague ends up at Purdue or UK). He's done 'ok' but there are some big fish out there.
Selby is not going to IU. Purdue isn't going to get him either. Just as no one in state is going to get JP Tokoto in the state of Wisconsin.
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The lesson is that he's all sizzle and no steak. Yes, he served Marquette well. Yes, we did well, very well. At a certain point it was time for him to move on though, although I didn't realize it at the time, but now I think MU is better off with Buzz. I'll agree he has a long leash, but let's not forget this is IU, where patience from the community is commensurate with tournament wins.
Edit: I also thought the part in the article referencing Crean's addiction to diet coke was pretty funny.
I don't disagree that we might be better off without Crean....he did what we needed him to do and did it well at MU. Whether we're better off with Buzz, well we'll see. Crean's departure isn't a big deal to me, at some point it happens to everyone and the timing was about right (I thought it would be a year later).
Whether he's all sizzle and no steak, who knows. I have to laugh at all you guys pretending to know how IU thinks. Yeah, it's IU, but yeah....it's a devastated IU that was dragged through the mud in an epic way.
As for Buzz lasting longer than Crean, could easily see that but could easily see it not happening, too. Buzz has bounced around a lot of jobs in his career but he's in a spot now that might never be better for him.
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Selby is not going to IU. Purdue isn't going to get him either. Just as no one in state is going to get JP Tokoto in the state of Wisconsin.
Thank you, you just made my point. MU and UW are not IU. TC was right "It's Indiana". It's a top 5 school. It's supposed to be able to ward off UNC, KU and Duke poachers. Last year I give him a pass, but why didn't he have a Top 5 recruiting class full of McD's All-Americans for this season? I know Creek was injured but they weren't special with him. Theoretically they chould have rolled out a Fab 5 type team this season. He was selling 4 years of PT! TC was a very good coach for MU (though he didn't walk on water...like some...thought) but he is proving to be average for IU. A program of that stature shouldn't aspire to the NIT in Year #3. It's Indy Freaking Ana!.
PS A lot of this is a joke b/c these "articles" were written by click driven bloggers. Katz & Davis they're not.
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Thank you, you just made my point. MU and UW are not IU. TC was right "It's Indiana". It's a top 5 school. It's supposed to be able to ward off UNC, KU and Duke poachers. Last year I give him a pass, but why didn't he have a Top 5 recruiting class full of McD's All-Americans for this season? I know Creek was injured but they weren't special with him. Theoretically they chould have rolled out a Fab 5 type team this season. He was selling 4 years of PT! TC was a very good coach for MU (though he didn't walk on water...like some...thought) but he is proving to be average for IU. A program of that stature shouldn't aspire to the NIT in Year #3. It's Indy Freaking Ana!.
PS A lot of this is a joke b/c these "articles" were written by click driven bloggers. Katz & Davis they're not.
Agree with this 1000%. IU, IU is a top 5 program all-time. They are supposed to be able to steal stars out of other programs' backyards, not vice versa.
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Selby is not going to IU. Purdue isn't going to get him either. Just as no one in state is going to get JP Tokoto in the state of Wisconsin.
I thought Selby was Maryland? Teague is the home town kid that Crean needs to get. I have a few relatives in Indiana (who are not IU fans, but rather ND) but there is an assumption amongst people in Indiana that they should pull their own. Josh McRoberts to Duke and Greg Oden and Mike Conelly to OSU did not sit well with the fan base. Crean better get Teague. He actually did very well in getting Diener and DJ and coaching Cordell Henry at MU for talking points in his recruiting of PGs.
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I think I would give Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, and UNC the top 4. So IU would be battling Duke for the 5th spot and maybe Michigan State all time.
Now, though I think Duke is clearly the 5th best overall program and the top 5 elite teams.
I would put teams like IU, MSU, UConn, and Syracuse in a second category.
Then a team like Marquette, Illinois, Villanova, Texas, etc. in a category 3.
These groupings are obviously debatable. IU is still a step up from MU, but I don't know if it is elite enough to be considered in the same category as Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC, and Duke. Their elite status may have been more of a function of having a smart coach who could recruit in Bob Knight.
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I think I would give Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, and UNC the top 4. So IU would be battling Duke for the 5th spot and maybe Michigan State all time.
Now, though I think Duke is clearly the 5th best overall program and the top 5 elite teams.
I would put teams like IU, MSU, UConn, and Syracuse in a second category.
Then a team like Marquette, Illinois, Villanova, Texas, etc. in a category 3.
These groupings are obviously debatable. IU is still a step up from MU, but I don't know if it is elite enough to be considered in the same category as Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC, and Duke. Their elite status may have been more of a function of having a smart coach who could recruit in Bob Knight.
MSU? They had Magic and then Izzo.
UCLA? They did a lot of soul searcing (and some winning) between Wooden and Howland
And I would love to see you say IU's success stems from Bobby Knight to an older NBA alum like Jon McGlocklin. He'd go crazy. As great as Bobby Knight was, IU is bigger than Knight.
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Thank you, you just made my point. MU and UW are not IU. TC was right "It's Indiana". It's a top 5 school. It's supposed to be able to ward off UNC, KU and Duke poachers. Last year I give him a pass, but why didn't he have a Top 5 recruiting class full of McD's All-Americans for this season? I know Creek was injured but they weren't special with him. Theoretically they chould have rolled out a Fab 5 type team this season. He was selling 4 years of PT! TC was a very good coach for MU (though he didn't walk on water...like some...thought) but he is proving to be average for IU. A program of that stature shouldn't aspire to the NIT in Year #3. It's Indy Freaking Ana!.
PS A lot of this is a joke b/c these "articles" were written by click driven bloggers. Katz & Davis they're not.
Historically, yes, but we all know that's not true right now. He was thinking longer term, bigger picture. There is no doubt in anyone's mind in America that if IU gets going again, it will be easier to recruit there, easier to win a national title there. That's the reason you go there. Right now, that's not the situation
The administration there, from all of my contacts, have been absolutely firm that ZERO short cuts be taken. As a result, it will be a longer process than what these other schools are doing who have no standards whatsoever.
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Historically, yes, but we all know that's not true right now. He was thinking longer term, bigger picture. There is no doubt in anyone's mind in America that if IU gets going again, it will be easier to recruit there, easier to win a national title there. That's the reason you go there. Right now, that's not the situation
The administration there, from all of my contacts, have been absolutely firm that ZERO short cuts be taken. As a result, it will be a longer process than what these other schools are doing who have no standards whatsoever.
I believe you are simply making excuses. It is IU. It is a top 5 program all-time. Why shouldn't they be able to pull in big recruits (especially in-state recruits) year-in and year-out without taking short cuts?
ND has been down in football for a long time. However, they have still managed to bring in big-time recruits year-in and year-out based on the history there, despite the ineptitude of the coaching staff and the recent struggles. Why shouldn't IU fans expect the same?
On a side note, I think IU could have been fairly decent this year if they still had Jordan Crawford (transfer), Eli Holman (transfer), Jamarcus Ellis (kicked off, subsequently sought reinstatement and denied) and Armon Bassett (same as Ellis) around. Unfortunately for the IU faithful, those players either didn't want to stick it out with the new coach or weren't allowed back by the coach/administration (who knows the exact reasons, may or may not have been warranted). However, the idea that IU was completely bare of talent when the new coach was hired is a half-truth.
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Are you devoid of facts today.
Crean's first year they returned ONE PLAYER who played 36 minutes total and averaged less than 2 points. How is that "a LOT MORE TALENT" than Pastner had at Memphis in his first year when Pastner returned:
Doneal Mack started 32 games last year....that already blows your argument to hell
Plus Duke transfer Eliott Williams that didn't have to sit out a year due to his mom's illness.
You're reaching. No way in hell IU in year one had more talent than Pastner's Memphis year one, it's not even close.
There was talent left at IU. (Eli Holman and Jordan Crawford for instance) Just not talent that wanted to play for Tom Crean. Guys who actually transferred not who were merely released from their LOIs. I know how insistent you were in this regard toward Buzz. Why not toward TC?
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MSU? They had Magic and then Izzo.
UCLA? They did a lot of soul searcing (and some winning) between Wooden and Howland
And I would love to see you say IU's success stems from Bobby Knight to an older NBA alum like Jon McGlocklin. He'd go crazy. As great as Bobby Knight was, IU is bigger than Knight.
Starting with Magic Johnson is not a trivial place to start. Having him gives MSU's program a big bump, like Wade does for MU. He is one of the best players to ever lace them up and having him and the winning that Izzo (with Crean's help) has done puts them into the conversation for top 10 programs. Indiana has won a lot of titles, many under Knight, so its probably ahead of MSU but it is not insane to mention them in the same sentence as Indiana IMO, though the championships, Bob Knight, etc. probably put Indiana ahead of MSU in the end.
Why would you question UCLA? Ranking teams are subjective, but UCLA is probably the best program of all time based on championships under Wooden, winning a championship in the 1990s, made final fours in this past decade and in 1980.
Indiana was very good before Knight, no doubt. He was a very big reason for their sustained success though and Davis, Sampson, and Crean are no replacements for him. I guess to clarify my point about Knight creating success at IU is that it does not seem like kids right now look at IU and desire to go there like they would UNC or Kentucky anymore. IU is like Illinois in the last 20 years for the most part and that is what people born after 1980 might see.
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I believe you are simply making excuses. It is IU. It is a top 5 program all-time. Why shouldn't they be able to pull in big recruits (especially in-state recruits) year-in and year-out without taking short cuts?
ND has been down in football for a long time. However, they have still managed to bring in big-time recruits year-in and year-out based on the history there, despite the ineptitude of the coaching staff and the recent struggles. Why shouldn't IU fans expect the same?
On a side note, I think IU could have been fairly decent this year if they still had Jordan Crawford (transfer), Eli Holman (transfer), Jamarcus Ellis (kicked off, subsequently sought reinstatement and denied) and Armon Bassett (same as Ellis) around. Unfortunately for the IU faithful, those players either didn't want to stick it out with the new coach or weren't allowed back by the coach/administration (who knows the exact reasons, may or may not have been warranted). However, the idea that IU was completely bare of talent when the new coach was hired is a half-truth.
His first recruiting class was a very good recruiting class, top 10 in some surveys. His second class was not. Those guys that transferred or were kicked off did so for a clear reason.....let's just say they wouldn't have survived if they hadn't for all but one of them. And I know many of the reasons from my contacts there.
And no, they were completely barren of talent because the direction was to clean house almost entirely. Which is what they did, this is why there was no talent left. Absolutely, bare bones...NONE. 1 kid, 36 total minutes logged. That was it. They wanted to keep a couple more kids, but that was it. The few kids that they would have been willing to hang on to, didn't want to because of the pending NCAA infractions and it wasn't their coach. Same reason why we had so many kids leave when Buzz was hired....he wasn't "their" coach.
These comparisons I see to other schools is hilarious and complete absurd. Memphis had a starting senior come back and a transfer from Duke in Pastner's first year. They also had 4 highly regarded recruits that committed to Memphis and kept their commitment. Far different than the IU situation. Kentucky was the same way, they were a post season team last year already, Coach Cal brought in a few great recruits that originally were going to Memphis with him, no sanctions at UK to deal with. Totally different story. Plus, UK by their very hiring of Coach Cal has said they are willing to take a risk. IU, by their very hiring of TC has said, NO RISKS, NO SHORT CUTS. Totally different scenarios, and COMPLETELY different administrations and philosophies.
Crean's make it or break it year is his 2012 recruiting class. That's really what it comes down to. They may only win 1 or 2 more games this year. Next year Creek comes back, they're all going to be sophomores and juniors, they will have played in his system for awhile. They lose Dumas which will be addition by subtraction.
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There was talent left at IU. (Eli Holman and Jordan Crawford for instance) Just not talent that wanted to play for Tom Crean. Guys who actually transferred not who were merely released from their LOIs. I know how insistent you were in this regard toward Buzz. Why not toward TC?
One of them yes, the other one was gone no matter what....the administration was saying no more soup for you.
And I did acknowledge this fact. But you also forget that IU was going on probation, another reason to leave for the players that don't want to deal with that. MU was not....a huge difference.
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And no, they were completely barren of talent because the direction was to clean house almost entirely. Which is what they did, this is why there was no talent left. Absolutely, bare bones...NONE. 1 kid, 36 total minutes logged. That was it. They wanted to keep a couple more kids, but that was it. The few kids that they would have been willing to hang on to, didn't want to because of the pending NCAA infractions and it wasn't their coach. Same reason why we had so many kids leave when Buzz was hired....he wasn't "their" coach.
Please define the "many" kids that left when Buzz was hired. Two recruits left when Buzz was hired. That's it. Not a single current player left due to Buzz being hired (Trevor stuck around the whole summer before leaving for who knows what reason).
Crawford and Holman could not be convinced by the new IU coach to stick around, plain and simple. What the exact reason for that can be debated but neither wanted to stay at IU. From most accounts Ellis and Bassett would have been able to remain academically eligble with a little work over the summer but they were refused reinstatement. So, to say that IU was completely barren of talent when they hired the new coach is a half truth.
I heard all this from my "insiders" and "friends" at IU, MU, KU, GB, UCLA, USC, NFL, Dallas, Kentucky....etc. I just felt I should come on here and correct the facts while making up a few of my own and interjecting my useless opinion in nearly every topic on this board. Go figure!
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Please define the "many" kids that left when Buzz was hired. Two recruits left when Buzz was hired. That's it. Not a single current player left due to Buzz being hired (Trevor stuck around the whole summer before leaving for who knows what reason).
Crawford and Holman could not be convinced by the new IU coach to stick around, plain and simple. What the exact reason for that can be debated but neither wanted to stay at IU. From most accounts Ellis and Bassett would have been able to remain academically eligble with a little work over the summer but they were refused reinstatement. So, to say that IU was completely barren of talent when they hired the new coach is a half truth.
I heard all this from my "insiders" and "friends" at IU, MU, KU, GB, UCLA, USC, NFL, Dallas, Kentucky....etc. I just felt I should come on here and correct the facts while making up a few of my own and interjecting my useless opinion in nearly every topic on this board. Go figure!
Nick Williams
Scott Christopherson (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Tyshawn Taylor (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Trevor Mbakwe
I'd consider that many, perhaps you don't. I do.
I worked for the IU athletic department, know some folks there....you don't know all the facts. I'll leave it at that.
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Nick Williams
Scott Christopherson (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Tyshawn Taylor (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Trevor Mbakwe
I'd consider that many, perhaps you don't. I do.
I worked for the IU athletic department, know some folks there....you don't know all the facts. I'll leave it at that.
So Buzz was not as effective of a recruiter as the esteemed Mike Deane who "convinced" Aaron Hutchins, Zac McCall and Richard Shaw to stay? Or maybe that had something to do with KO telling them they were honoring their commitment to MU. Something TC didn't.
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Nick Williams
Scott Christopherson (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Tyshawn Taylor (he was a current player, so you're wrong there)
Trevor Mbakwe
I'd consider that many, perhaps you don't. I do.
Forgot about Christopherson, although I don't think he was a huge loss.
Tyshawn Taylor was not a current player. He was still in HS. He was a recruit, just as Nick Williams was.
Mbakwe did not leave when Buzz was hired. He left 4 months later, after going through all the summer workouts. I believe he was gone regardless of who was coaching but who knows what was going on in his head.
So, 1 current player left due to Buzz being hired and 2 recruits decided to go elsewhere (2 also stayed committed). No, I don't consider that "many" kids.
I worked for the IU athletic department, know some folks there....you don't know all the facts. I'll leave it at that.
Congratulations on working in a lower-level position in the athletics department at IU a variety of years ago. I doubt any "knowledge" your "contacts" there give you can't be found by a simple google search or perusal of the IU message boards. If I'm wrong, why don't you divulge some of this "information"? This stuff happened nearly a year and a half ago and you're not some journalist trying to protect your sources. I'll leave it at that.
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So Buzz was not as effective of a recruiter as the esteemed Mike Deane who "convinced" Aaron Hutchins, Zac McCall and Richard Shaw to stay? Or maybe that had something to do with KO telling them they were honoring their commitment to MU. Something TC didn't.
He asked to name the players, I named the players.
Richard Shaw, where was he going to go...MSOE?
Cheech and Chong....Hutch & McCall....oh the stories I could tell.
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Forgot about Christopherson, although I don't think he was a huge loss.
Tyshawn Taylor was not a current player. He was still in HS. He was a recruit, just as Nick Williams was.
Mbakwe did not leave when Buzz was hired. He left 4 months later, after going through all the summer workouts. I believe he was gone regardless of who was coaching but who knows what was going on in his head.
So, 1 current player left due to Buzz being hired and 2 recruits decided to go elsewhere (2 also stayed committed). No, I don't consider that "many" kids.
Congratulations on working in a lower-level position in the athletics department at IU a variety of years ago. I doubt any "knowledge" your "contacts" there give you can't be found by a simple google search or perusal of the IU message boards. If I'm wrong, why don't you divulge some of this "information"? This stuff happened nearly a year and a half ago and you're not some journalist trying to protect your sources. I'll leave it at that.
LOL. 4 players, almost 20% of our roster. You can play semantics on whether they played here or not, the point is they didn't play here after he was hired. Meaning they left. They didn't want to play here any longer. They were less than 6 weeks away from Summer school.
And yes, you are correct I had a lower level position there at the time....and then years later we did this crazy thing like launch and own 49% of the Big Ten Network....you're right, everything is from a google search, I don't know anyone over there at IU or in the Big Ten office ::). Or dealing with the NCAA on a weekly basis. Yes, it all comes from a Google search. ::)
I'm not going to post specific information on a message board. But when I read something that is completely wrong or only displays 1/2 the story, I'm going to call it out. There are specific reasons why Crean originally agreed to an 8 year deal and before he even coached ONE GAME was given a 2 year extension....because things were that @#$#@@#$ up over there. And the reasons, without getting too specific on a message board, are simple. The entire program was basically to be gutted due to the enormous issues internally...academically, athletically, etc, etc. The players you guys mentioned would come back....get serious.
I'll leave it at that....you simply don't have all the information.
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Interesting how NBC's Mike Miller also says he had nothing to work with. Go figure
http://beyondthearc.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2010/01/26/2185779.aspx
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Honestly, we should just lock these threads up until 2012, as Crean is probably going to get at least that long barring some sort of major issue.
In 2012, we'll know more about how evil or how great he is.
My bet? The people that don't like him now will still hate him. The people that tolerated him will still be in the middle. The people that liked him will still find reasons to like him.
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And yes, you are correct I had a lower level position there at the time....and then years later we did this crazy thing like launch and own 49% of the Big Ten Network....you're right, everything is from a go ogle search, I don't know anyone over there at IU or in the Big Ten office ::). Or dealing with the NCAA on a weekly basis. Yes, it all comes from a Go ogle search. ::)
I'm not going to post specific information on a message board. But when I read something that is completely wrong or only displays 1/2 the story, I'm going to call it out. There are specific reasons why Crean originally agreed to an 8 year deal and before he even coached ONE GAME was given a 2 year extension....because things were that @#$#@@#$ up over there. And the reasons, without getting too specific on a message board, are simple. The entire program was basically to be gutted due to the enormous issues internally...academically, athletically, etc, etc. The players you guys mentioned would come back....get serious.
CBB, the problem with "contacts" is the just give propaganda. I work in the investment field and everyone knows you NEVER ask the company official a difficult question as the will give you spin and not "the answer."
So, do you honestly beleive your contacts would say "we screwed the pooch on this hire?" I doubt it. They will spin and defend all the way. If they were willing to say to you, matter of factly, that hiring Crean was a mistake, then the Indy sports reporters would hear it too and would be pounding him in the press everyday.
I'm only impressed by "contracts say" when they admit a mistake. That is not what is happening here.
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CBB, the problem with "contacts" is the just give propaganda. I work in the investment field and everyone knows you NEVER ask the company official a difficult question as the will give you spin and not "the answer."
So, do you honestly beleive your contacts would say "we screwed the pooch on this hire?" I doubt it. They will spin and defend all the way. If they were willing to say to you, matter of factly, that hiring Crean was a mistake, then the Indy sports reporters would hear it too and would be pounding him in the press everyday.
I'm only impressed by "contracts say" when they admit a mistake. That is not what is happening here.
Sigh...really. You really think that program should be turned around in 18 months? You're kidding yourself. The reason is that you guys don't know how bad it was internally, the administration does.
Again, this is why he was given an EXTENSION before he coached one game. That's how totally f'd up it was internally.
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In basketball you're as good as the next recruiting class. I agree with you that if he does not have a monster class by 2012, he's history. Right now I would not be holding my breath.
And going back to the Memphis example. That was about recruiting. Cal leaves and Pastner still reels in arguably the #1 recruiting class in the nation. I see Crean comfortably re-tooling IU for a run at fourth place in the Big Ten. That's not going to cut it and your "contacts" know this.
You think they are willing to pay him $23 million for these results?
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In basketball you're as good as the next recruiting class. I agree with you that if he does not have a monster class by 2012, he's history. Right now I would not be holding my breath.
And going back to the Memphis example. That was about recruiting. Cal leaves and Pastner still reels in arguably the #1 recruiting class in the nation. I see Crean comfortably re-tooling IU for a run at fourth place in the Big Ten. That's not going to cut it and your "contacts" know this.
You think they are willing to pay him $23 million for these results?
They can't afford not to, they are in deep financial crap right now. Yes, Mark Cuban could come to the rescue or another well heeled alum, but why you guys keep comparing this to Memphis is beyond me. Memphis cheats, Memphis has ZERO standards while IU is trying like crazy to reestablish those standards. They've told Crean to rebuild it and rebuild it correctly. ZERO SHORT CUTS. To compare what Memphis is doing is silly since 80% of those kids IU can't take anyway.
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But we would have taken Tarik Black. Granted Memphis cheated under Calipari. Is there any evidence that Pastner is not playing by the rules? Or is this just assumed as it is with Bruce because they're successful quite quickly?
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You keep saying that Memphis cheats and IU does it right. Are you saying Pastner is a cheater? Just as MU would have taken Tarik Black, you think Crean would have told him "no thanks" if he called IU?
I think you have a better argument that Cal is turning UK into a cess pool (remember that Cal has never made the final four as both appearances have been vacated).
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You keep saying that Memphis cheats and IU does it right. Are you saying Pastner is a cheater? Just as MU would have taken Tarik Black, you think Crean would have told him "no thanks" if he called IU?
I think you have a better argument that Cal is turning UK into a cess pool (remember that Cal has never made the final four as both appearances have been vacated).
Memphis has a long history of cheating going back decades. They also have academic standards (ahem) that allow them to take ANYONE. IU is in a situation right now due to the academic issues under Sampson that they CANNOT take anyone that is close to suspect. There are kids that at Memphis that would not be allowed in to IU at the current moment. Maybe in a few years when things die down, but right now, not on a bet.
Is Pastner cheating, who knows. Does he have a whole hell of a lot more flexibility to get kids into Memphis than TC (or anyone) would at IU right now? You better believe it.
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Ultimately here's the deal at this point. They are looking for progress at this point.
Last year IU won 1 Big Ten game.
This year, they've won 3 already, including a road game.
Last year they lost to Illinois in two games by 44 points...this year they lost in OT and by 2 on the road at the buzzer.
They've done this without their best player.
They are looking for improvement and no one in the administration is even remotely panicked like some MU fans wish they were. The team GPA is the highest it's been in a number of years. They're playing hard, they're competitive in most games and the players are almost all freshmen and sophomores except one.
That's the deal at this point.
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Ultimately here's the deal at this point. They are looking for progress at this point.
Last year IU won 1 Big Ten game.
This year, they've won 3 already, including a road game.
Last year they lost to Illinois in two games by 44 points...this year they lost in OT and by 2 on the road at the buzzer.
They've done this without their best player.
They are looking for improvement and no one in the administration is even remotely panicked like some MU fans wish they were. The team GPA is the highest it's been in a number of years. They're playing hard, they're competitive in most games and the players are almost all freshmen and sophomores except one.
That's the deal at this point.
Yes, they are better than last year. That's not the question. When are they going to win the Big Ten?
He's the reality, they are not capable to running with MSU, OSU or Purdue? Not with the talent they have now, not with the players they signed so far. At best they are a middle of the pack team.
I know you're goint to tell me they have the academic standards of ND, Duke or Stanford so it's tough on Tommy. So, when are they going to be good enough to beat these teams? (how about Harvard?)
To repeat my question, He has a $23 million contract, is this what they signed up for?
At this point the only thing that matters is next year's recruiting class. If he finally gets some real studs, he was a good hire. If not, he'll be a consultant for the Ravens in two years.
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You guys do understand that IU is still under some recruiting probations with doesnt left Crean with much to do but just take walkons. When they get off probation Crean will be on the rise in the Big10 (the 2nd toughest confrence).
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To repeat my question, He has a $23 million contract, is this what they signed up for?
The administration? I'd say yes. TC is a strong promoter, goodwill ambassador, and program salesman.
IU will give him a few years to help rebuild the program image and fan excitement (he's good as those things).
Now, I know if 5 years he's going to have to win otherwise people will grow restless, but I'd say for right now he is doing exactly what the administration wants/expects. THIS IS WHAT THEY SIGNED UP FOR. Clean out the program and build it up in the right way. We can hate on TC all we want, but he (and the current administration) built MU into a better program.
Fans? Well, they want it all.
Win now. Graduate everybody. Get every recruit. Get a new logo. Keep the old logo. Longer shorts. Shorter short. New songs at games. Old songs at games. More local players. More national players. Better student seating. Better alumni seating. More alumni events. Less alumni events. Better food. Cheaper beer.
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The administration? I'd say yes. TC is a strong promoter, goodwill ambassador, and program salesman.
IU will give him a few years to help rebuild the program image and fan excitement (he's good as those things).
In case you forgot, state budgets are stretched and people are getting laid off. Tommy us probably the highest paid state emplyee in Indiana (I'm assuming he makes more than the football coach).
Now consider this story
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3897386
At Indiana, athletic director Fred Glass has reduced ticket costs for balcony seating to $5, hoping to improve slipping attendance.
In this poltical envirnoment, The Governor could lose his job if voters get pissed the highest salaried state emplyee is not worth it. The dyanamic is changing.
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In case you forgot, state budgets are stretched and people are getting laid off. Tommy us probably the highest paid state emplyee in Indiana (I'm assuming he makes more than the football coach).
Now consider this story
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3897386
At Indiana, athletic director Fred Glass has reduced ticket costs for balcony seating to $5, hoping to improve slipping attendance.
In this poltical envirnoment, The Governor could lose his job if voters get pissed the highest salaried state emplyee is not worth it. The dyanamic is changing.
You can believe what you like, but I'm telling you that TC is going to get AT LEAST 2 more years after this year to straighten out the program.
The fans (and you) can be as pissed about it, but I bet the house that TC will be there. Now, if they aren't winning after that, I can see him getting replaced because ultimately he's going to HAVE to win games/titles. But, he is going to get every chance in the world.
I've never heard of a Governor losing his job because of a college basketball coach. Has that ever actually happened?
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You can believe what you like, but I'm telling you that TC is going to get AT LEAST 2 more years after this year to straighten out the program.
The fans (and you) can be as pissed about it, but I bet the house that TC will be there. Now, if they aren't winning after that, I can see him getting replaced because ultimately he's going to HAVE to win games/titles. But, he is going to get every chance in the world.
I've never heard of a Governor losing his job because of a college basketball coach. Has that ever actually happened?
While you and I disagree in the Crean War (get it?) I agree that he gets at least 2 more years. maybe 3.
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At least 2 more years, there is no way he won't. It is fantasy land to think he will get anything less, regardless of how much bitter Marquette fans pray nightly for that to happen.
Fred Glass is equally aware of the contractual issues and the massive buyouts on the football and basketball side the last decade. Contracts mean something to Glass in this political environment and yet you're only looking at it from one perspective. If you let someone go, you're now paying two coaches instead of one. Is that politically palatable? IU is 10th of 11 schools in money. They don't have the means to keep paying coaches that aren't coaching.
This is what Fred said a few months ago: ‘You’re dealing with the equivalent of a death penalty in basketball. What happened to our program was extraordinary and maybe unique in the history of college basketball. The thing was wiped out. We literally started from nothing. That’s not what Tom signed on for. When he came there was reason to believe there would be a nucleus of players to build around. Appropriately so, (those players) departed. That was the right result based on what was going on.”
He gets it. He's not going to pull the rug under someone who has basically had to start a program from scratch. Glass isn't that kind of guy for those that know him. He just isn't. Glass is the 5th AD in the last 8 years. There has been no stability at IU for the last decade, but they finally have someone. They have a long term plan to get this done and do it right.
The new basketball practice facility opens this spring, and it's amazing. The new athletics academic center as well.
As for attendance at IU, our attendance is down at MU as well. Just the way it is. As far I can tell, IU is still 2nd in the Big Ten in attendance and has been for quite some time.
The highest paid employee in the state is Tom Crean.
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While you and I disagree in the Crean War (get it?) I agree that he gets at least 2 more years. maybe 3.
Mark down this day. We agree about TC!
Shocking.
As far as IU goes, they will use him to promote the program and rebuild. If after that, he's not winning, they'll fire him. If he's starting to win and bringing in good recruits, he'll get another contract.
This isn't rocket science.
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Mark down this day. We agree about TC!
Shocking.
As far as IU goes, they will use him to promote the program and rebuild. If after that, he's not winning, they'll fire him. If he's starting to win and bringing in good recruits, he'll get another contract.
This isn't rocket science.
I was upset with Crean signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2. I give him credit for what he achieved. I was at the Final Four and Minneapolis and Indy that year. It was a blast.
Don't include me with those who wish him ill will at II, II. I am totally ambivalent toward IU. (Unless we play them)
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I was upset with Crean signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2. I give him credit for what he achieved. I was at the Final Four and Minneapolis and Indy that year. It was a blast.
Don't include me with those who wish him ill will at II, II. I am totally ambivalent toward IU. (Unless we play them)
I agree with that. I was disappointed as well. It was a sh*tty move, by a dude with a HUGE ego who is really only looking out for himself and his family.
To be honest, I think we share a lot more views than either of us think.
Written communication of this nature often leads to miscommunication and a lot of "reading between the lines". People get qualified as TC "lovers" or "haters", when really 95% of people fall somewhere in the middle.
I'm somewhere in the middle, but admittedly, I find myself "defending" the guy a lot because I don't like some of the needless bashing that goes on.
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I've never heard of a Governor losing his job because of a college basketball coach. Has that ever actually happened?
To be clear, I'm not saying he's gone. I'm saying he's under INTENSE pressure to produce a monster recruiting class in 2011 or 2012. If he does not show the ability to land a UK 2009 or Memphis 2010 type class, he's on he way to the Ravens as a assistant. If he produces two more classes like his last two then he's history. My point is his current level of recruiting is just not going to cut it. Now you say its the restrictions from the NCAA holding him back ... we'll see.
... and you never heard of a republican winning the Senate in MA. The world is changing, as I said before. States are broke. Governors are going to have to cut (make that butcher) spending or raise taxes. Raise taxes and your career is over. Cur thousand of state employees and keep a $2 million bball coach finishing in fifth place in the conference and you have a political issue. You've never heard of a lot of things that is currently happening in muni finance.
Cal at UK, Saban at Alabama, Brown at Texas are in the same situation as high paid coaches. The difference is they are playing for championship so they get a pass. If they were playing for fifth place in their respective conferences for two years in a row then it would be good bye to them too.
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I agree with that. I was disappointed as well. It was a sh*tty move, by a dude with a HUGE ego who is really only looking out for himself and his family.
To be honest, I think we share a lot more views than either of us think.
Written communication of this nature often leads to miscommunication and a lot of "reading between the lines". People get qualified as TC "lovers" or "haters", when really 95% of people fall somewhere in the middle.
I'm somewhere in the middle, but admittedly, I find myself "defending" the guy a lot because I don't like some of the needless bashing that goes on.
Amen. I hate being called a Crean lover, it's far from it. I just won't pile on the guy after all he did for the program, especially when some of the attacks are so baseless it's ridiculous.
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To be clear, I'm not saying he's gone. I'm saying he's under INTENSE pressure to produce a monster recruiting class in 2011 or 2012. If he does not show the ability to land a UK 2009 or Memphis 2010 type class, he's on he way to the Ravens as a assistant. If he produces two more classes like his last two then he's history. My point is his current level of recruiting is just not going to cut it. Now you say its the restrictions from the NCAA holding him back ... we'll see.
Why do you think he has to have a recruiting class like UK or Memphis? Honestly, where are you getting this? That's not what I'm hearing at all. He landed one top 10 class. If he lands another top 10 or top 15 class he'll be fine. He does not need to land a top 3 recruiting class. IU in it's hey day never did that.
Of course his current recruiting will need to get better, but as much as he has "time to sell" he also has other roadblocks that other schools don't have.
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To be clear, I'm not saying he's gone. I'm saying he's under INTENSE pressure to produce a monster recruiting class in 2011 or 2012. If he does not show the ability to land a UK 2009 or Memphis 2010 type class, he's on he way to the Ravens as a assistant. If he produces two more classes like his last two then he's history. My point is his current level of recruiting is just not going to cut it. Now you say its the restrictions from the NCAA holding him back ... we'll see.
... and you never heard of a republican winning the Senate in MA. The world is changing, as I said before. States are broke. Governors are going to have to cut (make that butcher) spending or raise taxes. Raise taxes and your career is over. Cur thousand of state employees and keep a $2 million bball coach finishing in fifth place in the conference and you have a political issue. You've never heard of a lot of things that is currently happening in muni finance.
Cal at UK, Saban at Alabama, Brown at Texas are in the same situation as high paid coaches. The difference is they are playing for championship so they get a pass. If they were playing for fifth place in their respective conferences for two years in a row then it would be good bye to them too.
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the political stuff. I can't imagine a scenario where a governor is held responsible for the performance of the college basketball coach. Also, how much of his salary is paid for by donations to the school?
As far as monster recruiting classes... well, he doesn't need to win a national title in 2 years, he probably just needs to compete for a Big Ten title... so I don't think he needs a top 5 recruiting class. I think he just needs to keep adding talented kids and show progress in the program. If at the end of 2012 IU isn't close to winning the B10, his seat will get very hot (maybe fired).
For whatever reason, it seems like your expectations are a lot higher. I guess we can just agree to disagree about that as well.
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They can't afford not to, they are in deep financial crap right now. Yes, Mark Cuban could come to the rescue or another well heeled alum, but why you guys keep comparing this to Memphis is beyond me. Memphis cheats, Memphis has ZERO standards while IU is trying like crazy to reestablish those standards. They've told Crean to rebuild it and rebuild it correctly. ZERO SHORT CUTS. To compare what Memphis is doing is silly since 80% of those kids IU can't take anyway.
Tarik Black is by all reports an outstanding student. Jelan Kendrick was heavily recruited by IU. That already blows up the 80% can't get into IU statement. I don't know anything about the academics of the rest of Pastner's class and I suspect you don't either. But if their grade points and test scores meet or exceed NCAA standards my guess is IU could find a spot for them. You rarely make reckless statements but I'd like to see the facts that prove this one.
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Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the political stuff. I can't imagine a scenario where a governor is held responsible for the performance of the college basketball coach. Also, how much of his salary is paid for by donations to the school?
As far as monster recruiting classes... well, he doesn't need to win a national title in 2 years, he probably just needs to compete for a Big Ten title... so I don't think he needs a top 5 recruiting class. I think he just needs to keep adding talented kids and show progress in the program. If at the end of 2012 IU isn't close to winning the B10, his seat will get very hot (maybe fired).
For whatever reason, it seems like your expectations are a lot higher. I guess we can just agree to disagree about that as well.
I think the same as you, he needs to compete for the Big Ten title. But what does that take?
Last year MSU was in the final game. This year MSU is #5 and Purdue is #7. So, what's the difference between being a Big Ten champion favorite and a final four team? You're not winning the conference ranked #21 unless its an upset. To win as a favorite you have to be a top 5 team.
He needs the horses to accomplish this and I don't see him getting that caliber of player ... yet.
Remember that Rick Greenspan, the AD that hired him, is gone. No baggage in letting him go in two years if he doesn't show real progress (meaning big recruits).
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Tarik Black is by all reports an outstanding student. Jelan Kendrick was heavily recruited by IU. That already blows up the 80% can't get into IU statement. I don't know anything about the academics of the rest of Pastner's class and I suspect you don't either. But if their grade points and test scores meet or exceed NCAA standards my guess is IU could find a spot for them. You rarely make reckless statements but I'd like to see the facts that prove this one.
The Crean defenders sound like ND whiners ... either we win or don't because we are ethical and everyone else is scum.
IU is not using Ivy standards for the basketball team? (btw, Cornell is now ranked). Lots of schools have standards similar to IU now, including MU. The difference is the NCAA sanctions. But like I said, we'll see if the floodgates open after they expire.
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Why do you think he has to have a recruiting class like UK or Memphis? Honestly, where are you getting this? That's not what I'm hearing at all. He landed one top 10 class. If he lands another top 10 or top 15 class he'll be fine. He does not need to land a top 3 recruiting class. IU in it's hey day never did that.
Of course his current recruiting will need to get better, but as much as he has "time to sell" he also has other roadblocks that other schools don't have.
From everything I read from Indiana fanboys on many sites, I feel that II should have nothing less than a Top 5 recruiting class year in year out. After all, they're Indiana; one of the top 5 basketball schools in the country...or so I hear. Top level talent should be fighting with each other to recruit themselves to Bloomington. I mean TC said it himself...Wade would have crawled on his hands and knees over burning coals to have a chance to play at II
I think we're coming up on the time where Indiana is no longer an "elite" program. Same level as Marquette at best. These recruits weren't even born when II won it's last title. They've been in one Final Four in recent history...same as Marquette and many other schools. I don't think TC will land top-flight recruiting classes because he'll try to sell them the history of the banners. 1987 means nothing to someone born in 1993. It's not even the best program in the state right now. I'd wish him luck in making an attempt to last the term of his contract...but I won't.
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He's not going to be fired in the next couple years. And I hope he doesn't. It's too enjoyable seeing Hoosier fans get wise to the disingenuous jack ass. Watching him dangling from a rope, while his players (who know who he really is) witness him clapping and aping for the cameras like a d*ckhead on the sidelines during games is an absolute pleasure. If Indiana gets rid of him, they'll strip us of the opportunity to watch him the show.
Has he latched on to any Indiana "celebrities?" You know, any Gerry Boyle types? Mike McCarthy? Ben Sheets? Anybody like that?
Seriously, with apologies to Holden Caufield and the late JD Salinger, if somebody can name me a bigger phony than Tom Crean I'm all ears. Maybe Bernie Madoff, but I'm guessing he had real friends and not just people he met through fan letters.
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It's not even the best program in the state right now.
This is a good question ... forget the big ten ... when will IU be recognized as the best program in the state of Indiana (above ND and Purdue?). Will this even happen on Crean's watch?
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I think the same as you, he needs to compete for the Big Ten title. But what does that take?
Last year MSU was in the final game. This year MSU is #5 and Purdue is #7. So, what's the difference between being a Big Ten champion favorite and a final four team? You're not winning the conference ranked #21 unless its an upset. To win as a favorite you have to be a top 5 team.
He needs the horses to accomplish this and I don't see him getting that caliber of player ... yet.
Remember that Rick Greenspan, the AD that hired him, is gone. No baggage in letting him go in two years if he doesn't show real progress (meaning big recruits).
Well, I could be wrong, but I don't remember Purdue landing a UK or KU type of monster class. (could be wrong though).
They have certainly recruited talented players, but it's not like they are landing the #1 class in the country.
I think IU will compete for a B10 title in the next 3 years. I know some people will say that's not good enough, but I think the IU administration will be satisfied with that. The program hit rock bottom, and they will be satisfied with steady progress for 4-5 years.
Now, in 5 years, they are going to have to be winning in March to keep everybody satisfied. If they don't, then TC will be gone.
Also, let's just be honest: For some people, it doesn't matter what TC does, it won't be good enough, and he'll still be a douche.
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Well, I could be wrong, but I don't remember Purdue landing a UK or KU type of monster class. (could be wrong though).
They have certainly recruited talented players, but it's not like they are landing the #1 class in the country.
In West Lafayette they don't do around saying "it's Purdue" and they don't pay Painter $23 million coming in the door.
Based on your comments, you think that IU basketball is really no different than Iowa or say Wisconsin. That is, their goal is do 1) not embarrass the university 2) give the students something to do during the cold winter, 3) make them proud every few years.
Fact is IU thinks it belongs in the same breath as UNC, Duke and KU. And if Crean doesn't deliver on this soon (two years), he's history. It starts with getting the horses (recruits).
IF IU waits 5 or 6 years, meaning five or six years of mediocre performances, they will be thought of as being as special as say Cincy (remember how they were consistently a top five program) and their toast. They will be a middle of the pack big ten team for another decade after that.
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In West Lafayette they don't do around saying "it's Purdue" and they don't pay Painter $23 million coming in the door.
Based on your comments, you think that IU basketball is really no different than Iowa or say Wisconsin. That is, their goal is do 1) not embarrass the university 2) give the students something to do during the cold winter, 3) make them proud every few years.
Fact is IU thinks it belongs in the same breath as UNC, Duke and KU. And if Crean doesn't deliver on this soon (two years), he's history. It starts with getting the horses (recruits).
IF IU waits 5 or 6 years, meaning five or six years of mediocre performances, they will be thought of as being as special as say Cincy (remember how they were consistently a top five program) and their toast. They will be a middle of the pack big ten team for another decade after that.
OK. You win.
IU thinks its better than everybody else, and TC sucks and will be run out on a rail because he hasn't landed a top 3 recruiting class.
Is this accurate?
EDIT: It's ok for Purdue to have a top 10 team without a monster recruiting class, but it's not ok for IU to have that? If IU becomes as good as Purdue is now, it won't matter what the recruiting classes are ranked.
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From everything I read from Indiana fanboys on many sites, I feel that II should have nothing less than a Top 5 recruiting class year in year out. After all, they're Indiana; one of the top 5 basketball schools in the country...or so I hear. Top level talent should be fighting with each other to recruit themselves to Bloomington. I mean TC said it himself...Wade would have crawled on his hands and knees over burning coals to have a chance to play at II
I think we're coming up on the time where Indiana is no longer an "elite" program. Same level as Marquette at best. These recruits weren't even born when II won it's last title. They've been in one Final Four in recent history...same as Marquette and many other schools. I don't think TC will land top-flight recruiting classes because he'll try to sell them the history of the banners. 1987 means nothing to someone born in 1993. It's not even the best program in the state right now. I'd wish him luck in making an attempt to last the term of his contract...but I won't.
There is no doubt that IU today is not elite like it was. The question is the ceiling. It the ceiling lower or higher than at most schools? I'd argue their ceiling is very high.
As for the websites, I'm not sure what threads you gravitate to, but there are many many (more than the other side) where fans realize this is going to be a long haul and will take a long time. They want to do it right.
I just laugh at the prospects that he'll be gone next year or even the year after. They are just so out of touch with reality it's funny to read.
Fred Glass is totally on board and they literally started from scratch. Any comparison to Memphis, Kentucky or anyone else is absurd because none of them had to start over from scratch with the same restraints on them, not even close.
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This is a good question ... forget the big ten ... when will IU be recognized as the best program in the state of Indiana (above ND and Purdue?). Will this even happen on Crean's watch?
Funny, Marquette isn't the best program in our state either. Go figure.
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Funny, Marquette isn't the best program in our state either. Go figure.
MU was last year, and the year before. And it's a good bet it will be again next year. And, with a good run in the next few weeks, it might again this year.
Nothing close can be said for IU.
CBB, you keep lower expectations for IU. It now an "average major" program from your comments. Are you now willing to admit that Crean made a lateral move instead of a move upward.
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MU was last year, and the year before. And it's a good bet it will be again next year. And, with a good run in the next few weeks, it might again this year.
Nothing close can be said for IU.
CBB, you keep lower expectations for IU. It now an "average major" program from your comments. Are you now willing to admit that Crean made a lateral move instead of a move upward.
Today, it is an average major program, in fact below average. My expectations are high, but they are within reason. It will take several years and Fred knows this.
Today, Wisconsin is the better program...I thought we were talking about this year. Forgive me for missing the part about this being an argument of the past.
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Today, Wisconsin is the better program...I thought we were talking about this year. Forgive me for missing the part about this being an argument of the past.
So I guess UNC isn't a better program than Charlotte or Western Carolina, let alone Duke since this is only an argument about this year. What a stupid thing to say!!!!
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IU is in on some very good 2011 kids, many from the state. They already have a 4 star commitment from Etherington.
Dawson is a 5 star from Indiana that has IU on his list along with G'Town, Purdue and UCLA
Jeremiah Davis, another 4 star from Indiana, is on their list
Marquis Teague is the big fish in that class...a 5 star that everyone wants. He's from Indianapolis, and IU is one of the schools on his list
They're also on some Michigan and Illinois kids that are 4 stars. My guess is that you will see them land a very good class for that year.
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Today, it is an average major program, in fact below average. My expectations are high, but they are within reason. It will take several years and Fred knows this.
Today, Wisconsin is the better program...I thought we were talking about this year. Forgive me for missing the part about this being an argument of the past.
So why did Crean take it? You know he was hoping for a Pastner or Cal type of splash in his first years with McDonald's AA begging to get in ending with IU's version of the "fab 5." It did not happen in 2008, 2009 and is not happening in 2010 so far. Now they are in year three preaching patience. This is not good.
Right now it looks like Crean made a mistake. He has not improved his position over MU, other than his salary. If it was about money, their were easier ways to get a raise.
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So I guess UNC isn't a better program than Charlotte or Western Carolina, let alone Duke since this is only an argument about this year. What a stupid thing to say!!!!
Yes, using CBB logic, Roy Williams is a failure because he's now coaching the fourth best program in the state of North Carolina.
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Hey guys, so after I read that article on ESPN, I Googled it to see if anyone else had written something like that and I found you guys talking about it, so I figured I'd try to set some of the facts straight, as a lifelong Hoosier and IU fan that is. (Sorry if this is long, but I want to try to answer all the different things I've read)
You guys only know half of the story of Sampson's firing. Along with cheating, he also didn't control the team at all. The only players who weren't failing classes and/or doing drugs were Eric Gordon (who just kept to himself) and DJ White and Kyle Taber (who didn't hang out with the rest of the team either). Gordon and DJ went to the NBA and everyone else was either kicked of the team or transferred before they could be (except Taber a former walk-on who earned a scholarship), most were gone before Crean was hired. That IU was able to put a team on the court at all last season was an accomplishment, let alone 6 wins. You could argue that this is Crean's first real season at IU.
Obviously at a school with IU's tradition there are going to some people who aren't happy with Crean. We don't have any patients for losing and we don't want any. The phrase, "I don't know how much more of this I can take." is hear quite often. But, that doesn't mean Crean is "on the clock". He has overwhelming support from the majority of the fan base. But, most (the realistic ones) considered a .500 record this a best case scenario, so our record right now is not a surprise. The team only has 2 upperclassmen, Dumes is a JUCO transfer, and Rivers who barely played at G'Town, so they don't have much experience either. Then we lost Creek who was the top scoring freshman in the Big Ten and dropped 31 on Kentucky. Yes, we lost to few cupcakes early in the year, and the loss to Iowa was wholly intolerable (because of how they played, not the loss itself). But we've also beaten Pitt and competed with Maryland and Kentucky. We beat Minnesota in overtime and won a road Big Ten game (even if it was Penn State), and lost on a last second shot at Illinois. So there has been signs of progress, and Crean isn't in danger of getting fired any time soon.
As for down the road? Well, I'd say he'll need to have a winning record next year, and make the tourney the next year, which is possible if the current underclassmen continue to improve and gain experience (especially Jones III, Creek, Watford and Hulls) and more talent is added. As for recruiting, Teague isn't as big a deal as you guys think, especially if he goes to Louisville, whom IU fans usually root for ;). But, if Crean's not keeping anyone in the state, then the fans will become upset. (Especially if they go to Kentucky, Illinois or OSU) IU has never been a hot spot nationally for recruits, but we've never needed to be with all of the home grown talent. So far he appears to be doing a better job recruiting in Indiana than Davis or Sampson did.
And as for IU no longer being an elite program? Well, we've fallen behind UNC, Duke, Kansas, etc. for now, but we will eventually be back. IU has averaged 15,000 a game and Assembly Hall has been sold out on occasion (we were 16th in the country last year despite 6 wins). Also, IU is opening a new Basketball Development Center, which is huge because currently the only court available is the one in Assembly Hall which is shared between the Men and Women's teams.
(Don't know if you guys actually care, but I was bored, so there you go)
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Hey guys, so after I read that article on ESPN, I Googled it to see if anyone else had written something like that and I found you guys talking about it, so I figured I'd try to set some of the facts straight, as a lifelong Hoosier and IU fan that is. (Sorry if this is long, but I want to try to answer all the different things I've read)
You guys only know half of the story of Sampson's firing. Along with cheating, he also didn't control the team at all. The only players who weren't failing classes and/or doing drugs were Eric Gordon (who just kept to himself) and DJ White and Kyle Taber (who didn't hang out with the rest of the team either). Gordon and DJ went to the NBA and everyone else was either kicked of the team or transferred before they could be (except Taber a former walk-on who earned a scholarship), most were gone before Crean was hired. That IU was able to put a team on the court at all last season was an accomplishment, let alone 6 wins. You could argue that this is Crean's first real season at IU.
Obviously at a school with IU's tradition there are going to some people who aren't happy with Crean. We don't have any patients for losing and we don't want any. The phrase, "I don't know how much more of this I can take." is hear quite often. But, that doesn't mean Crean is "on the clock". He has overwhelming support from the majority of the fan base. But, most (the realistic ones) considered a .500 record this a best case scenario, so our record right now is not a surprise. The team only has 2 upperclassmen, Dumes is a JUCO transfer, and Rivers who barely played at G'Town, so they don't have much experience either. Then we lost Creek who was the top scoring freshman in the Big Ten and dropped 31 on Kentucky. Yes, we lost to few cupcakes early in the year, and the loss to Iowa was wholly intolerable (because of how they played, not the loss itself). But we've also beaten Pitt and competed with Maryland and Kentucky. We beat Minnesota in overtime and won a road Big Ten game (even if it was Penn State), and lost on a last second shot at Illinois. So there has been signs of progress, and Crean isn't in danger of getting fired any time soon.
As for down the road? Well, I'd say he'll need to have a winning record next year, and make the tourney the next year, which is possible if the current underclassmen continue to improve and gain experience (especially Jones III, Creek, Watford and Hulls) and more talent is added. As for recruiting, Teague isn't as big a deal as you guys think, since most don't expect him to come to IU or stay long if he does. But, if Crean's not keeping anyone in the state, then the fans will become upset. (Especially if they go to Kentucky, Illinois or OSU) IU has never been a hot spot nationally for recruits, but we've never needed to be with all of the home grown talent. So far he appears to be doing a better job recruiting in Indiana than Davis or Sampson did.
And as for IU no longer being an elite program? Well, we've fallen behind UNC, Duke, Kansas, etc. for now, but we will eventually be back. IU has averaged 15,000 a game and Assembly Hall has been sold out on occasion (we were 16th in the country last year despite 6 wins). Also, IU is opening a new Basketball Development Center, which is huge because currently the only court available is the one in Assembly Hall which is shared between the Men and Women's teams.
(Don't know if you guys actually care, but I was bored, so there you go)
Thats good that you are being patient with Crean at IU. His act just got really old at Marquette and I hear him say the same bs still at IU. For example, he will be asked a question about the game and he will start answering it and then get into his talking points about "tradition" and whatever else. He drops D-Wade's name more now than he ever did, too.
Before Crean went there, I loved IU's program but he is a hard guy to root for to be honest based on his huge ego and for the manner he left his players at MU. You will not find a single person who would rather have Crean than Buzz. In fact, there were calls to get Crean out of town back in 2005, especially if MU could have tried to poach Bruce Pearl from UW-Milwaukee. Crean road D-Wade to a big contract so hopefully he is happy, and we probably would not have Buzz if Crean did not hire him so we can be thankful for that.
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If you truly aspire to return to the level of UNC, Duke, KU or the like, then Crean's not your man. He's a used car salesman who talks a good show but in reality produces very little.....except for himself. He's an average recruiter when there's playing time to sell, but routinely finishes out of the money with the program changers. Game prep leaves plenty to be desired also. If in doubt, see our 2003 FF semi-final game vs. Kansas as all the proof you may need. He'll preach family, team, etc., but don't be surprised if he bolts in the middle of the night. Friends, you ask? He's got an entire laundry list left behind here. Dudes like Mike McCarthy, LaRussa, and Ben Sheets. Truth is, no one really knows him. When he feels compelled to get the word out, Andy Katz will shill for him. He'll need to suck onto a another superstar soon, I mean, how long can you ride on DWade's shirttails? He extremely self-absorbed, yet, can't see his own lousy haircut or fake tan. And, tell him to please learn to tie a tie properly.
But, you and the IU faithful can enjoy the turd and all his propaganda. Because, in the end, you'll come back to this board and admit, you didn't want to believe it, but Tom Crean is a phony.
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Seriously, with apologies to Holden Caufield and the late JD Salinger, if somebody can name me a bigger phony than Tom Crean I'm all ears.
You would be amazed at how many coaches fit that label.
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So I guess UNC isn't a better program than Charlotte or Western Carolina, let alone Duke since this is only an argument about this year. What a stupid thing to say!!!!
I'm using his criteria.....would you say MU is a better program than Wisconsin right now? Or this decade? I sure wouldn't. They've been close, but Wisconsin's 10 straight NCAA appearances and a Final Four, conference titles trump our decade.
He made the argument that we were a better program last year than UW. I'd say we were even the last few years. This year they are clearly better, for the decade they have the edge.
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Crean did good work here. For MU and Crean both. I thought his game prep was decent but his in-game adjustments were poor. IMO his poor in-game adjustments stemmed from his inability to recruit a balance roster. I assumed that once he got to IU, this weakness would take care of itself, which, since he would actually have options, would lead to better in-game adjustments. Also, I assumed that he would learn and grow from his mistakes. If he can involve and recruit bigs, he will do fine at IU. I bear him no ill will. Good luck.
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If you truly aspire to return to the level of UNC, Duke, KU or the like, then Crean's not your man. He's a used car salesman who talks a good show but in reality produces very little.....except for himself. He's an average recruiter when there's playing time to sell, but routinely finishes out of the money with the program changers. Game prep leaves plenty to be desired also. If in doubt, see our 2003 FF semi-final game vs. Kansas as all the proof you may need. He'll preach family, team, etc., but don't be surprised if he bolts in the middle of the night. Friends, you ask? He's got an entire laundry list left behind here. Dudes like Mike McCarthy, LaRussa, and Ben Sheets. Truth is, no one really knows him. When he feels compelled to get the word out, Andy Katz will shill for him. He'll need to suck onto a another superstar soon, I mean, how long can you ride on DWade's shirttails? He extremely self-absorbed, yet, can't see his own lousy haircut or fake tan. And, tell him to please learn to tie a tie properly.
But, you and the IU faithful can enjoy the turd and all his propaganda. Because, in the end, you'll come back to this board and admit, you didn't want to believe it, but Tom Crean is a phony.
4ever...it's what they need right now. They need someone that will work his ass off, do it right, rebuild the image. That's what he was hired to do and that's what he's doing. Pretty simple
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I don't disagree. Just giving Indymac and the IU faithful fair warning. Sometimes love is blind and one just can't see the obvious or just won't believe it. TC had most of the MU fanbase fooled for a long time too.
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Chicos,
You now have 30 posts in this thread but as of yet have not responded to my post on page 3 questioning your "fact" that IU won't allow Crean to recruit 80% of the players Pastner is bringing in at Memphis. We already know this isn't true regarding Black and Kendrick which leaves you well short of 80%. Please supply us with the information regarding their other 5 recruits (test scores and gpa) which would preclude them from entering the hallowed halls of Indiana Unoversity. Thanks.
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So why did Crean take it? You know he was hoping for a Pastner or Cal type of splash in his first years with McDonald's AA begging to get in ending with IU's version of the "fab 5." It did not happen in 2008, 2009 and is not happening in 2010 so far. Now they are in year three preaching patience. This is not good.
Right now it looks like Crean made a mistake. He has not improved his position over MU, other than his salary. If it was about money, their were easier ways to get a raise.
Who in the hell looks at this stuff through a 2 year vision? I know he didn't. I know IU doesn't from the folks I talk to. They see nothing about a mistake at all.
Why did he take it.
1) Better opportunity - higher upside
2) More stability if it works out - Big Ten is solid, MU is in fragile Big East conference which may not last
3) More money - 10 year contract with more money
4) In state talent - IU can survive on Indiana recruits alone if it had to. MU cannot on Wisconsin recruits.
5) Intangibles - THE STATE SCHOOL. No pro team to compete with. 5th most national titles in history. Etc
That's why he took it....for the long range possibilities. Short term, no brainer he should have stayed. Long term, not even close. When you're offered a chance to coach at IU, KU, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC....you take it. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why he took it.
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Chicos,
You now have 30 posts in this thread but as of yet have not responded to my post on page 3 questioning your "fact" that IU won't allow Crean to recruit 80% of the players Pastner is bringing in at Memphis. We already know this isn't true regarding Black and Kendrick which leaves you well short of 80%. Please supply us with the information regarding their other 5 recruits (test scores and gpa) which would preclude them from entering the hallowed halls of Indiana Unoversity. Thanks.
Lenny....I can tell you from the conversations I've had with the IU folks I know that are in the athletic department and I'll be as blunt as I can be.
THERE WILL BE NO SHORTCUTS TAKEN. NONE WILL BE ALLOWED. ZERO TOLERANCE. PERIOD. END OF STORY.
They are having to recruit kids cut from a different cloth right now. I'm sorry if my 80% was a bit hyperbole, forgive me. The fact of the matter is that there are restrictions placed internally right now (they are temporary, but they are there) that they have to bring in HIGH CHARACTER guys that eliminates them from going after some other kids that are attending some other schools that go for the quick fix.
You're welcome.
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Lenny....I can tell you from the conversations I've had with the IU folks I know that are in the athletic department and I'll be as blunt as I can be.
THERE WILL BE NO SHORTCUTS TAKEN. NONE WILL BE ALLOWED. ZERO TOLERANCE. PERIOD. END OF STORY.
So everyone ahead of IU in recruiting polls cheats? Please stop and try another rationalization.
From your earlier post ....
Why did he take it.
1) Better opportunity - higher upside
The entire point of this thread is to say this is no longer true. In fact, you made this case the best with your "contacts" admitting things are not going well now and preaching patience.
2) More stability if it works out - Big Ten is solid, MU is in fragile Big East conference which may not last
I have no idea what this means. If the Big East breaks up you think MU is join the Horizon league?
3) More money - 10 year contract with more money
Easier ways to accomplish this. than taking the most screwed up program in America. (one that I'm arguing is not fixable ... "fixable" means back to consistently winning the big ten.)
4) In state talent - IU can survive on Indiana recruits alone if it had to. MU cannot on Wisconsin recruits.
You're assuming they can actually get them. Unlike MU that only has Wisconsin to compete with in state, IU has Purdue, ND and Louisville (who is only three miles from the Indiana border).
5) Intangibles - THE STATE SCHOOL. No pro team to compete with. 5th most national titles in history. Etc
I have no idea what this means and what it means to an 18 year old recruit.
That's why he took it....for the long range possibilities. Short term, no brainer he should have stayed. Long term, not even close. When you're offered a chance to coach at IU, KU, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC....you take it. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why he took it.
Let me say this in a way you can understand. .... IU was Bobby like MU was Al. KU, Kentucky, UCLA and UNC have consistently won at the highest levels with multiple coaches. IU only did it with Bobby as MU only did it with Al. Once Knight left, they began their long slow slide to mediocrity (that is, becoming a consistent 3rd to 6th place big ten team).
Crean is now IU's Dukiet years.
(side note, Duke faces the same problem when K leaves ... they too could start a long slow slide into becoming Wake Forest. We'll see.).
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That's why he took it....for the long range possibilities. Short term, no brainer he should have stayed. Long term, not even close. When you're offered a chance to coach at IU, KU, Kentucky, UCLA, UNC....you take it. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why he took it.
How did those schools become like that?
Time and Tradition.
They were forged from infancy with work and good coaching. Now they are destination jobs because most are too cowardly and impatient to form their own legacy at a school and build such tradition.
That's how I look at Crean. A "professional" with aspirations of coaching at one of the "elite" schools rather than staying and building/contining MU's legacy and possibly forging it into a consistant winner to be an "elite" bball school.
Some would say that is not possible. Maybe in the short term it is impossible, sure, but who can tell a thing 40 years in the future?
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Chicos, with all due respect, how long has it been since you worked at IU? 10 years or more? With the turnover that department has had (AD, 4 hoops coaches, etc.) how many reliable contacts can you really have?
It's like me saying I have contacts at Alltel because I worked there for several years in the mid-90's.
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Chicos, with all due respect, how long has it been since you worked at IU? 10 years or more? With the turnover that department has had (AD, 4 hoops coaches, etc.) how many reliable contacts can you really have?
It's like me saying I have contacts at Alltel because I worked there for several years in the mid-90's.
See your PM for a detailed answer....Big Ten Network, NCAA, etc....almost none of the original people I worked with 15 years ago are there, all the contacts are from business dealings with the schools, the conference and close associations with very well heeled alums. You'll recognize the names immediately in your PM.
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From Indy mac
"We don't have any patients for losing and we don't want any."
Clearly an IU fan based on his grammar. i thought maybe he was an MU fan/Crean apologist. But that sentence right here proved he truly was an IU fan.
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Chicos, with all due respect, how long has it been since you worked at IU? 10 years or more? With the turnover that department has had (AD, 4 hoops coaches, etc.) how many reliable contacts can you really have?
It's like me saying I have contacts at Alltel because I worked there for several years in the mid-90's.
PRN have you not realized Chicos is a far bigger Iu fan than he is an MU fan. He is as bad as any Wisconsin troll.
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I don't disagree. Just giving Indymac and the IU faithful fair warning. Sometimes love is blind and one just can't see the obvious or just won't believe it. TC had most of the MU fanbase fooled for a long time too.
Love is always blind, or at the very least, forgiving. If we had Bo Ryan as our head coach, we would all love him. Since we don't, 80% can't stand the guy. Just the way it is.
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So everyone ahead of IU in recruiting polls cheats? Please stop and try another rationalization.
Crean is now IU's Dukiet years.
(side note, Duke faces the same problem when K leaves ... they too could start a long slow slide into becoming Wake Forest. We'll see.).[/color]
Of course not. Where did I ever say that everyone ahead of IU in recruiting cheats? Why are you incapable of using rational thought instead of making crap up?
Really....Crean is now Dukiet? That seems to be what you are saying....please tell me that's what you are saying so I don't misinterpret it.
Dukiet took a NIT program and drove it into the ground. Crean took a program essentially from scratch and is building it up....please show me the comparisons because I'm missing them.
Coach Knight has been gone for a good number of years and was on the downslide even before that when Knight was still there....they then took two shortcuts with Davis (lazy hire because he was the assistant) and Sampson (the quick fix despite a known cheater at previous stops).
Now they brought Crean in to clean up the mess and rebuild. Ironic....don't you think. If Crean can rebuild Marquette you don't think he can rebuild Indiana? Really? Uhm, ok. Oh that's right, it was all Dwyane Wade, I keep forgetting.
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Love is always blind, or at the very least, forgiving. If we had Bo Ryan as our head coach, we would all love him. Since we don't, 80% can't stand the guy. Just the way it is.
I might be vilified for saying this, but I actually like Bo Ryan. I like a lot of coaches. I even kind of like Bob Huggins.
It was torture for me that my team was coached by a guy I truly loathe. Now it's Indiana's problem.
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Dawson is a 5 star from Indiana that has IU on his list along with G'Town, Purdue and UCLA
Sorry to take this a little off track, but are we still involved with him? I read not too long ago that he is keeping it pretty close to the vest, but I thought those on the Indiana board thought that even though Purdue is thought to be the leader, we were making up some ground and could be in the top three. He would be a huge get and I was just curious if you heard something saying we are no longer in the running.
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Sorry to take this a little off track, but are we still involved with him? I read not too long ago that he is keeping it pretty close to the vest, but I thought those on the Indiana board thought that even though Purdue is thought to be the leader, we were making up some ground and could be in the top three. He would be a huge get and I was just curious if you heard something saying we are no longer in the running.
Which "we" are you using. Marquette or IU?
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Marquette
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I have no idea how involved MU is in Dawson. I do know that PU and IU are heavily involved. I know he attended the MU Specialty Camp in August.
Of the folks that went to the specialty camp, 3 have already committed to MU. Smith, Blue and Newbill.
I'd be surprised to see Dawson leave the Big Ten. Ohio State is after him as well, but who knows.
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Which "we" are you using. Marquette or IU?
OMG. Case closed.
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Dawson would be the perfect replacement for Jimmy. Would be a tough get, but he could come to a place where Jimmy is leaving and DJO would be a seniot.
Dawson, Jones, and Blue would be nice to have as the 2-3-4 in Buzz's offense to go along with Smith and Cadougan at the 1 and Otule/Mbao/Shaq clone in the 2011 class that Buzz will find at the 5.
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OMG. Case closed.
Case closed what? I went to both schools and didn't know who he was talking about. You do realize there are several of us here that follow MU and IU and post about both schools? I didn't know if Cheebs was an IU guy as well.
Good grief.
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Case closed what? I went to both schools and didn't know who he was talking about. You do realize there are several of us here that follow MU and IU and post about both schools? I didn't know if Cheebs was an IU guy as well.
Good grief.
You wrote that Dawson's list was Georgetown, Purdue, UCLA and Indiana. Cheebs asked if that means that "we" were no longer in on him. Reading comprehension and the fact that this is an MU board led me to the conclusion that his "we" was MU. I've never heard anyone but IU visitors refer to the Hoosiers as "we" on this board. Except you.
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You wrote that Dawson's list was Georgetown, Purdue, UCLA and Indiana. Cheebs asked if that means that "we" were no longer in on him. Reading comprehension and the fact that this is an MU board led me to the conclusion that his "we" was MU. I've never heard anyone but IU visitors refer to the Hoosiers as "we" on this board. Except you.
So spot on, thanks Lenny.
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You wrote that Dawson's list was Georgetown, Purdue, UCLA and Indiana. Cheebs asked if that means that "we" were no longer in on him. Reading comprehension and the fact that this is an MU board led me to the conclusion that his "we" was MU. I've never heard anyone but IU visitors refer to the Hoosiers as "we" on this board. Except you.
Sigh...so not spot on.
Can you please get on the NFC North Thread and start bellyaching everytime "we" is used since we don't know if it's the Bears, Vikings, Packers or Lions....afterall, it's a MU board so how could they possibly be referencing someone else other than Marquette ::)
You've also never heard of alma mater meaning more than your undergraduate institution, nor other meanings of "beg" and I could go on and on. And yes, there are several MU \ IU people on this Marquette board because we are fans of both. I didn't recognize Cheebs which is why I asked the question. The reason I say that is because for awhile, Dawson was not listed with IU so I thought (forgive me Lord) that he was asking if IU was no longer included. Most of the major recruiting sites don't list Marquette at all with Dawson. In fact, NONE DO. But if you dig deep enough, you can find that he has been involved with MU via the speciality camps, etc. So that is why I couldn't determine who he was talking about.
Good Lord.
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Sigh...so not spot on.
Can you please get on the NFC North Thread and start bellyaching everytime "we" is used since we don't know if it's the Bears, Vikings, Packers or Lions....afterall, it's a MU board so how could they possibly be referencing someone else other than Marquette ::)
You've also never heard of alma mater meaning more than your undergraduate institution, nor other meanings of "beg" and I could go on and on. And yes, there are several MU \ IU people on this Marquette board because we are fans of both. I didn't recognize Cheebs which is why I asked the question. The reason I say that is because for awhile, Dawson was not listed with IU so I thought (forgive me Lord) that he was asking if IU was no longer included. Most of the major recruiting sites don't list Marquette at all with Dawson. In fact, NONE DO. But if you dig deep enough, you can find that he has been involved with MU via the speciality camps, etc. So that is why I couldn't determine who he was talking about.
Good Lord.
Dawson took an unofficial visit to MU along with Jamail Jones, Tarik Black and Vander Blue for Marquette Madness. Maybe we (Marquette) are out on him now (I'll accept it since you say it's so) but it sure sounds like we (Marquette) were still in on him fairly recently. As a Marquette fan Cheebs evidently knew this.
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Dawson took an unofficial visit to MU along with Jamail Jones, Tarik Black and Vander Blue for Marquette Madness. Maybe we (Marquette) are out on him now (I'll accept it since you say it's so) but it sure sounds like we (Marquette) were still in on him fairly recently. As a Marquette fan Cheebs evidently knew this.
Where did I say MU was out of it.....and you get on me for reading comprehension. ;D I never said that....ever.
What I SAID, is that MU was not listed on the official recruiting sites as being involved with the kid. At least not that MU had offered. But that doesn't mean anything as those sites are not exactly 100% accurate.
Scout says MU hasn't offered
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=4014932
Rivals doesn't even include MU
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Branden-Dawson-86158
But as I said originally, I have no idea if MU is involved....I do know that PU and IU are. Based on the fact that Dawson went to the elite camp for MU, I have to think we are involved to some extent, but the recruiting websites don't indicate that we are (or haven't offered).
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Where did I say MU was out of it.....and you get on me for reading comprehension. ;D I never said that....ever.
What I SAID, is that MU was not listed on the official recruiting sites as being involved with the kid. At least not that MU had offered. But that doesn't mean anything as those sites are not exactly 100% accurate.
Scout says MU hasn't offered
http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=4014932
Rivals doesn't even include MU
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Branden-Dawson-86158
But as I said originally, I have no idea if MU is involved....I do know that PU and IU are. Based on the fact that Dawson went to the elite camp for MU, I have to think we are involved to some extent, but the recruiting websites don't indicate that we are (or haven't offered).
Recruiting websits are notoriously incorrect. They are basically playing a guesing game, and update only a couple of times a year. Come on Chicos, you know this.
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Uhm, that's probably why I already said they are not 100% accurate. So why the "come on Chicos" when I have already said this earlier in the thread?
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Love is always blind, or at the very least, forgiving. If we had Bo Ryan as our head coach, we would all love him. Since we don't, 80% can't stand the guy. Just the way it is.
Not to go a completely different direction but many Cubs fans I know hated Jim Edmonds when he was with the Cardinals and grew to like him during his short stint with the Cubs. Cards fans no cannot stand the guy. (conversation was brought up at yesterdays game between myself (brewers fan), a cubs fan and a cards fan.) Basically the same thought process goes into any sort of thinking with coaches and players alike.
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Not to go a completely different direction but many Cubs fans I know hated Jim Edmonds when he was with the Cardinals and grew to like him during his short stint with the Cubs. Cards fans no cannot stand the guy. (conversation was brought up at yesterdays game between myself (brewers fan), a cubs fan and a cards fan.) Basically the same thought process goes into any sort of thinking with coaches and players alike.
I'm a big Cubs fan and I absolute hate Jim Edmonds. My dislike has nothing to do with the fact that he played with the Cardinals. He's just a total poser. In fact, I'd say he reminds me quite a bit of our former coach.
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It all depends on who you ask. That being said, he is a poser. The half shirts, making what should be routine fly ball outs look like gold glove plays by loafing to start then diving for the catch, etc.
Back to the the discussion of the thread though. I have a feeling IU is going to end up using TC as a stepping stone to get them back into the national spotlight and then make a move for a better coach. At least that is what they hope to do. TC won't be able to bring them into the UNC, Kansas level.
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I'm a big Cubs fan and I absolute hate Jim Edmonds. My dislike has nothing to do with the fact that he played with the Cardinals. He's just a total poser. In fact, I'd say he reminds me quite a bit of our former coach.
Jim Edmonds molsted a Collie.
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Apparently someone stated in this thread I was a far bigger fan of IU than MU? This defies logic on every level. My house is adorned in MU stuff as is my office. It defies my posting habits (1000's vs less than 100), it defies my donating habits ($1000's vs $0 to IU). It defies attendance at games....I have not gone to an IU game since I graduated grad school, yet have attended many MU games since graduation, well over 100.
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I'm a big Cubs fan and I absolute hate Jim Edmonds. My dislike has nothing to do with the fact that he played with the Cardinals. He's just a total poser. In fact, I'd say he reminds me quite a bit of our former coach.
He might be a poser but the guy was a hell of a ballplayer, I'm sure as a Cubs fan you would have loved to have someone like him in the middle of your lineup and roaming the outfield regardless of your take on his image/personality.
Chico's I also agree with some of the other posters. Why would you need to ask if "we" referred to MU or IU on a MU board, especially from a guy with over a 100 posts? I would think everyone would assume that "we" means MU on this board when referring to college hoops teams. Just seems weird to me. Go figure!
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I'm sure as a Cubs fan you would have loved to have someone like him in the middle of your lineup and roaming the outfield regardless of your take on his image/personality.
You're wrong. I like to root for people I don't dislike. I would have hated (and did hate) Edmonds if (when) he was on the Cubs. I would hate LaRussa if he was managing the Cubs. I hated Crean and he was coaching Marquette. These guys are all disingenuous POSERS!!
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He might be a poser but the guy was a hell of a ballplayer, I'm sure as a Cubs fan you would have loved to have someone like him in the middle of your lineup and roaming the outfield regardless of your take on his image/personality.
Chico's I also agree with some of the other posters. Why would you need to ask if "we" referred to MU or IU on a MU board, especially from a guy with over a 100 posts? I would think everyone would assume that "we" means MU on this board when referring to college hoops teams. Just seems weird to me. Go figure!
Well that's exactly why I asked, because he had so few posts. I didn't recognize him, wasn't sure who he was a fan of. I think I explained myself quite clearly on the topic.
Coach Norman Dale, another poster on here, I believe is also a MU and IU fan. There are a few others.
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You're wrong. I like to root for people I don't dislike. I would have hated (and did hate) Edmonds if (when) he was on the Cubs. I would hate LaRussa if he was managing the Cubs. I hated Crean and he was coaching Marquette. These guys are all disingenuous POSERS!!
But you liked KO. Interesting. A guy that trashed our school in public, put the school in a potentially very embarrassing situation on multiple occasions (thank God the internet wasn't around like it is today).
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Apparently someone stated in this thread I was a far bigger fan of IU than MU? This defies logic on every level. My house is adorned in MU stuff as is my office. It defies my posting habits (1000's vs less than 100), it defies my donating habits ($1000's vs $0 to IU). It defies attendance at games....I have not gone to an IU game since I graduated grad school, yet have attended many MU games since graduation, well over 100.
I couldn't have written a better paragraph to illustrate my point that while a man attend many institutions he has but one dear nourishing mother (Alma Mater) to whom he gives his love and loyalty. I'm glad yours is Marquette.
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I couldn't have written a better paragraph to illustrate my point that while a man attend many institutions he has but one dear nourishing mother (Alma Mater) to whom he gives his love and loyalty. I'm glad yours is Marquette.
It is, without doubt, my favorite school. There is no question whatsoever. That didn't stop me, however, from cheering for IU tonight against #7 Purdue. Good game.
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A lot of unfair Chicos hate going on me thinks. Cmon everybody, he says enough stuff thats easy to disagree with that you certainly don't need to question his allegiance because he left for grad school. This is worse than the tea party movement.
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A lot of unfair Chicos hate going on me thinks. Cmon everybody, he says enough stuff thats easy to disagree with that you certainly don't need to question his allegiance because he left for grad school. This is worse than the tea party movement.
I agree with this. I have zero doubt where Chicos allegiance lies...despite his misguided defense of the horse's ass Tom Crean!!
Chicos is a Warrior backer all the way!
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Of course not. Where did I ever say that everyone ahead of IU in recruiting cheats? Why are you incapable of using rational thought instead of making crap up?
Really....Crean is now Dukiet? That seems to be what you are saying....please tell me that's what you are saying so I don't misinterpret it.
Dukiet took a NIT program and drove it into the ground. Crean took a program essentially from scratch and is building it up....please show me the comparisons because I'm missing them.
You took the analogy to literally. Dukiet was the low point of the program and stayed that way until he left.
Crean is the low point of the IU program and will stay that way until he leaves.
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You took the analogy to literally. Dukiet was the low point of the program and stayed that way until he left.
Crean is the low point of the IU program and will stay that way until he leaves.
You obviously know nothing about IU basketball to state that.
The low point was Kelvin Sampson. IU is so geeked up on doing things the right way, they were devastated with what Sampson did. His firing, the NCAA probation, etc....that was the low point.
Plus, you can go back during other times where things were not good. Harry Good, Lou Watson, the one year Jerry Oliver experiment. The end of the 1960's were very bad and they didn't have the excuse of a NCAA probation.
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You obviously know nothing about IU basketball to state that.
The low point was Kelvin Sampson. IU is so geeked up on doing things the right way, they were devastated with what Sampson did. His firing, the NCAA probation, etc....that was the low point.
Plus, you can go back during other times where things were not good. Harry Good, Lou Watson, the one year Jerry Oliver experiment. The end of the 1960's were very bad and they didn't have the excuse of a NCAA probation.
wong.
Crean is a douche and I hate him.
Therefore, this is the low point of IU basketball.
Chico's, you're crazy.
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wong.
Crean is a douche and I hate him.
Therefore, this is the low point of IU basketball.
Chico's, you're crazy.
Stop picking on the Chinese. ;D
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The low point was Kelvin Sampson. IU is so geeked up on doing things the right way, they were devastated with what Sampson did. His firing, the NCAA probation, etc....that was the low point.
I'll go you one further, Chicos. I don't think Indiana will ever recover from the Sampson thing. It changed the perception of their basketball program forever. Maybe it started with the departure of Knight, but I don't believe they'll ever be perceived as the squeeky clean, do-as-your-told, farm-boy militia that they once were. I honestly believe they're just another Big Ten team now...nowhere near a "Top 5" program (NC, UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky, now maybe Duke). They'll do well to compete year after year with Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin and Michigan State. There was a time when those schools dreamed of being Indiana. They lost that image of purity they moment they got on their hands and knees and let let Sampson pound them in the keister.
Indiana is now the Britney Spears of college basketball -- once a sought after piece of tail, now just a haggard slab of deli meat with coaching's K Fed currently at the helm.
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You obviously know nothing about IU basketball to state that.
The low point was Kelvin Sampson. IU is so geeked up on doing things the right way, they were devastated with what Sampson did. His firing, the NCAA probation, etc....that was the low point.
Plus, you can go back during other times where things were not good. Harry Good, Lou Watson, the one year Jerry Oliver experiment. The end of the 1960's were very bad and they didn't have the excuse of a NCAA probation.
Just how does an institution "so geeked up to do things the right way" end up in bed with a slimeball like TC's buddy Sampson? When you jump in the cesspool with the Kentuckys of the world, "finding God" after you're caught with both hands in the cookie jar won't give you back the moral high ground.
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You obviously know nothing about IU basketball to state that.
The low point was Kelvin Sampson. IU is so geeked up on doing things the right way, they were devastated with what Sampson did. His firing, the NCAA probation, etc....that was the low point.
Plus, you can go back during other times where things were not good. Harry Good, Lou Watson, the one year Jerry Oliver experiment. The end of the 1960's were very bad and they didn't have the excuse of a NCAA probation.
Excuse me, but wasn't IU ranked #8 when Sampson was canned? Didn't they have a lottery pick in Gordon? Crean now has a sub .500 program for the second year in a row. No lottery picks anywhere in sight.
What new math are you using?
And PRN said what I've been trying to tell you for 25 posts in this thread, IU suffered permanent damage. They are "just another" big ten team. Nothing wrong with that but IU nation thinks they are more than that and they are not. Crean thought IU was more than that and now must realize he, at best, made a lateral move.