By a sizeable margin.
From the Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-12-depaul-chartjan12,0,4175959.story
Marquette top spender on men's basketball program in Big East; DePaul 15th of 16
Marquette: $10,306,548
Louisville: $8,625,245
Syracuse: $7,784,244
Georgetown: $7,405,214
Connecticut: $6,796,942
Villanova: $5,959,931
West Virginia: $5,963,760
Pittsburgh: $5,337,512
Seton Hall: $5,200,805
St. John's: $4,729,555
Providence: $4,637,423
Notre Dame: $4,380,691
Cincinnati: $4,011,357
Rutgers: $3,793,356
DePaul: $3,257,409
South Florida: $2,927,362
Karate lessons, hyperbaric chambers, and midnight limo rides are expensive.
Are there overhead costs that get directly attributed to MU's men's bball program (weight room, vehicles) that would be shared by other schools' football programs?
Hopefully we can start getting a little more bang for our buck with a Big East title or a Sweet 16.
Regardless, MU is a small Catholic school in Milwaukee. Men's basketball is the best way to increase name recognition for our school. I am all for them spending like they do.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 11, 2010, 07:55:19 PM
Karate lessons, hyperbaric chambers, and midnight limo rides are expensive.
The figures were from July 2008-June 2009...so you can't blame this one on Crean.
Quote from: akmarq on January 11, 2010, 08:09:42 PM
The figures were from July 2008-June 2009...so you can't blame this one on Crean.
You meant for that to be in teal I hope?
Kind of surprising. Wonder what our revenue is...
Quote from: SaintPaulWarrior on January 11, 2010, 08:16:38 PM
You meant for that to be in teal I hope?
From the article:
"Here's a look at how much each of the Big East schools spent on men's basketball programs from July 2008 to June 2009, according to U.S. Department of Education data:"
Or, if you're referring to the Crean part, he did raise our spending profile. However, I don't think we took out a 3 year payment plan on his karate lessons. His spending that we are still feeling is worthless stuff like, you know, the Al.
Quote from: akmarq on January 11, 2010, 08:32:47 PM
From the article:
"Here's a look at how much each of the Big East schools spent on men's basketball programs from July 2008 to June 2009, according to U.S. Department of Education data:"
Or, if you're referring to the Crean part, he did raise our spending profile. However, I don't think we took out a 3 year payment plan on his karate lessons. His spending that we are still feeling is worthless stuff like, you know, the Al.
Buzz was hired in April or May of 2008, so I do no think he had much control of the upcoming years budget.
This story surfaces every 4-5 months.
It's been explained to me that it is not apples to apples. Some schools charge certain things to the Athletic Department that others do not. Example. Scholarships. Some schools charge that to the AD, others, it's just free. Another biggie is the physical plant. Some schools don't charge expense to the AD for the practice facility. Others do. Imagine how many dollars the Al Center sucks up.
There's about a dozen ways one school will come out higher or lower, depending on their accounting practices, yet they actually spend the same.
The rankings are pretty worthless, or so I've been told.
I assume we also pay a Bradley Center lease?
It makes sense.
MUBB is *THE* sport at the school.
Is the budget going to go down now that Buzz is the coach?
Those costs should go down considerably now that the High Maintenence Maymon has exited the building.
Depending on the accounting used it may include a big number depreciating the AL. It would be interesting to see the same list with the womens teams.
As stated in the past, these numbers are interesting but without knowing what goes into them, they are largely irrelevant.
Some schools have the athletic departments pay for things like building costs, maintenance, etc....while other schools hide that in an overall plant budget.
Some schools waive tuition costs while other schools have the athletic department pay for the costs themselves an reimburse the university (like MU has to).
Etc, etc.
And if anyone thinks the budget is going down because the previous coach left.....the only impact will be salary which will be short term because Buzz will get a raise if he continues to do well.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 12, 2010, 09:50:52 AM
As stated in the past, these numbers are interesting but without knowing what goes into them, they are largely irrelevant.
Some schools have the athletic departments pay for things like building costs, maintenance, etc....while other schools hide that in an overall plant budget.
Some schools waive tuition costs while other schools have the athletic department pay for the costs themselves an reimburse the university (like MU has to).
Etc, etc.
And if anyone thinks the budget is going down because the previous coach left.....the only impact will be salary which will be short term because Buzz will get a raise if he continues to do well.
Buzz also spends less on wardrobe, and doesn't: do karate lessons, ride 4 wheelers, own a hummer, buy/lease a hyperbolic chamber, etc.
In summary, I like Buzz, therefore the large budget is not his fault.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 12, 2010, 10:31:20 AM
Buzz also spends less on wardrobe, and doesn't: do karate lessons, ride 4 wheelers, own a hummer, buy/lease a hyperbolic chamber, etc.
In summary, I like Buzz, therefore the large budget is not his fault.
What exactly is a "hyperbolic" chamber? Is it an enclosure where one goes to make exagerated statements, or a chamber shaped like a hyperbola. The former seems appropriate for the previous coach. ;)
Apparently, we should be spending more to get some calls.
I wonder if part of the $8M that Louisville has spent was paid to an abortion clinic.
Quote from: swimmer on January 12, 2010, 11:06:56 AM
What exactly is a "hyperbolic" chamber? Is it an enclosure where one goes to make exagerated statements, or a chamber shaped like a hyperbola. The former seems appropriate for the previous coach. ;)
HA.
Nice catch. Good response.
I'm an idiot, and I meant hyperbaric. Stupid spell check.
Quote from: hdog1017 on January 12, 2010, 11:13:22 AM
I wonder if part of the $8M that Louisville has spent was paid to an abortion clinic.
Nice
A couple of things:
Do these figures include the coaches salaries?
Could it be that the football programs in most of these schools help ofset the cost of training facilities and other sports related items thus reducing the need for the BBall programs to foot the bill?
Consider it marketing money and cheap at the price. Do you know what ad time costs on ESPN or space in newspapers/magazines across the country?
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 12, 2010, 10:31:20 AM
Buzz also spends less on wardrobe, and doesn't: do karate lessons, ride 4 wheelers, own a hummer, buy/lease a hyperbolic chamber, etc.
In summary, I like Buzz, therefore the large budget is not his fault.
We all know you're really Joni, so give it up.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 12, 2010, 10:31:20 AM
Buzz also spends less on wardrobe, and doesn't: do karate lessons, ride 4 wheelers, own a hummer, buy/lease a hyperbolic chamber, etc.
In summary, I like Buzz, therefore the large budget is not his fault.
don't be so sure about that. Buzz has been quoted before that one thing he spends money on are nice suits, etc. I remember him talking about this last year at the Annex one Tuesday night with Homer on the radio.
Quote from: muwarrior87 on January 12, 2010, 12:30:15 PM
don't be so sure about that. Buzz has been quoted before that one thing he spends money on are nice suits, etc. I remember him talking about this last year at the Annex one Tuesday night with Homer on the radio.
I think MU coaches have all had a promo deal with a Mens store. Al and Hank used Snyder's in Oconomowoc
I think Crean and Deane?? used Mark Paasch.
Here's an opportunity for Buzz to cash in....
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 11, 2010, 07:55:19 PM
Karate lessons, hyperbaric chambers, and midnight limo rides are expensive.
Yep,quite expensive. All of about 0.08% of the budget.
Hyperbaric Chamber costs: $41,700
http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2007/10/19/up_and_coming_method/
This should last for at least five years--probably 10. Let's split the difference can call it 7 a year lifecycle
That's $5957/year.
I think the limo was used to meet Shumpert at midnight the day coaches were allowed on the road to recruit. A found a quote for a round trip limo from Ohare to Oak Park with a stretch limo is $85 each way--lets go ahead and round up to $200 total.
Karate Lessons: High end estimate is $100/person per month (low end was $40/month)--you wouldn't have needed more than that for the pretty basic skill used at the midnight madness event. Karate uniforms can be had for $25 bucks. Of course, it may have been an MU alum or booster who provided the lessons and uniforms at no charge as a donation in-kind to the Blue & Gold. Lets assume $1500 total--lessons + uniforms.
4 wheel drive rental--I couldn't find any costs--but my guess is that an MU booster loaned this at no charge. But lets say it cost $500 to rent it for the night.
Total is $8,157. Out of a $10,306,548 budget, that makes for a total of 0.0791%.
I know you guys who hate Crean will turn every molehill into a mountain, but this is pretty lame even for you.
The biggest line item here is the chamber, which seems to have a pretty substantial benefit--to the point where Wes Matthews was willing to consider buying his own--and based on the $33,000,000 cost of the the Al, was an almost insignificant expense.
Finally, Wes is having a good deal of success playing at Utah--elevation 4327. Anyone want to argue that his training in high-altitude conditions provided no advantage in making the transition to the NBA?
I'm glad the number is that high and I hope it continues to rise. The accounting differences may skew the numbers higher or lower for some schools, but there's an obvious correlation between dollars spent and program success. Cut that list in half. The top half are perennial tournament teams, while the bottom half (with the exception of ND) are perennial also-rans. It's cause for concern if MU ever starts sliding down this list.
Quote from: mu-rara on January 12, 2010, 12:17:02 PM
We all know you're really Joni, so give it up.
Really?
What am I up to?
MU's spending will go down under Buzz Williams' because he doesn't have the expensive and/or extravagant taste of his predecessor.
Quote from: Marquette84 on January 12, 2010, 12:55:17 PM
Finally, Wes is having a good deal of success playing at Utah--elevation 4327. Anyone want to argue that his training in high-altitude conditions provided no advantage in making the transition to the NBA?
Yes, I will argue it.
Wes didn't gain any advantaged, and never trained in "high altitude" conditions on Marquette's campus. Read this thread for more info. A little science can go a long way, unfortunately Crean didn't understand science.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13843.0
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 12, 2010, 05:16:07 PM
Yes, I will argue it.
Wes didn't gain any advantaged, and never trained in "high altitude" conditions on Marquette's campus. Read this thread for more info. A little science can go a long way, unfortunately Crean didn't understand science.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13843.0
To be fair, apparently many other sports and teams don't either, then.
The way I understand it, the hyperbaric chamber is used to help recover from injuries for athletes, among other things.
The Vancouver Canucks use it. Mario Lemiuex, Dirk Nowitzki, Terrel Owens, JD Drew, Jimmy Rollins, Brian Westbrook, European soccer teams, etc, etc
Whether this stuff works, I have no idea, but there seems to be a cottage industry that suggests it does
http://www.hypo2.net/html/athletes.html
http://www.hyperbaric-oxygen-ca.com/Athletes.htm
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1342615/more_pro_athletes_using_hyperbaric_chambers/
http://ezinearticles.com/?Athletes-Use-Portable-Hyperbaric-Oxygen-Chambers-For-Fast-Fitness-Results&id=2717953
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 12, 2010, 05:16:07 PM
Yes, I will argue it.
Wes didn't gain any advantaged, and never trained in "high altitude" conditions on Marquette's campus. Read this thread for more info. A little science can go a long way, unfortunately Crean didn't understand science.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=13843.0
http://www.customizedworkoutplans.com/fitness/training-at-high-altitude-vs-hyperbaric-chambers/
1) I think they're some confusion. MU's chamber was described as a "high altitude" chamber, which would lower pressure, and oxygen levels. If it was really a Hyperbaric, that's much different, and useful for recovery, and pumping you blood full of oxygen for a short period of time.
2) Understanding that:
a) If was simulating a high altitude, you'd have to spend 24/7 in it to gain any advantage. An hour or so a week would do nothing.
b) If it was Hyperbaric, then you'd be best served to spend the time immediately before a game in there. After a couple hours all the extra oxygen in your blood would be depleted.
3) Training at altitude is the *best* solution, because your body slowly adapts to be starved of oxygen, thus it can use it more efficiently once you're in a low altitude.
Conclusion, Marquette's chamber may not have been a total waste of money, but it also didn't provide any significant benefit to the team. It did probably pay for itself in the free PR that it generated.
I never had a problem with Crean's purchase of the HA Chamber .. clearly, there are people who believe in the technology. If we can buy a $50k machine that gives our guys 1 gallon more gas in the tank over 40 minutes, I say, sign us up, our bench is short.
The whirlpool in the Al for athletes probably cost $100k, but no one complains about that.
Can you tan in the Hyperbaric Chamber being that it simulates higher altitude and thus being closer to the sun?
I sat in a lecture at MU and was told by one of the leading vascular surgeons in the area that hyperbaric chambers did zilch for athletes.
Quote from: Marquette84 on January 12, 2010, 12:55:17 PM
Yep,quite expensive. All of about 0.08% of the budget.
Hyperbaric Chamber costs: $41,700
http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2007/10/19/up_and_coming_method/
This should last for at least five years--probably 10. Let's split the difference can call it 7 a year lifecycle
That's $5957/year.
I think the limo was used to meet Shumpert at midnight the day coaches were allowed on the road to recruit. A found a quote for a round trip limo from Ohare to Oak Park with a stretch limo is $85 each way--lets go ahead and round up to $200 total.
Karate Lessons: High end estimate is $100/person per month (low end was $40/month)--you wouldn't have needed more than that for the pretty basic skill used at the midnight madness event. Karate uniforms can be had for $25 bucks. Of course, it may have been an MU alum or booster who provided the lessons and uniforms at no charge as a donation in-kind to the Blue & Gold. Lets assume $1500 total--lessons + uniforms.
4 wheel drive rental--I couldn't find any costs--but my guess is that an MU booster loaned this at no charge. But lets say it cost $500 to rent it for the night.
Total is $8,157. Out of a $10,306,548 budget, that makes for a total of 0.0791%.
I know you guys who hate Crean will turn every molehill into a mountain, but this is pretty lame even for you.
The biggest line item here is the chamber, which seems to have a pretty substantial benefit--to the point where Wes Matthews was willing to consider buying his own--and based on the $33,000,000 cost of the the Al, was an almost insignificant expense.
Finally, Wes is having a good deal of success playing at Utah--elevation 4327. Anyone want to argue that his training in high-altitude conditions provided no advantage in making the transition to the NBA?
Don't mean to speak for 4ever but I think he's speaking to the silliness (hyperbaric chamber, karate lessons) and the tawdriness (midnight limo surprises) of the former administration. It was essentially a joke you evidently didn't get since you spent nine paragraphs with your cost analysis. Why so serious?
Quote from: Marquette84 on January 12, 2010, 12:55:17 PM
Yep,quite expensive. All of about 0.08% of the budget.
Hyperbaric Chamber costs: $41,700
http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2007/10/19/up_and_coming_method/
This should last for at least five years--probably 10. Let's split the difference can call it 7 a year lifecycle
That's $5957/year.
I think the limo was used to meet Shumpert at midnight the day coaches were allowed on the road to recruit. A found a quote for a round trip limo from Ohare to Oak Park with a stretch limo is $85 each way--lets go ahead and round up to $200 total.
Karate Lessons: High end estimate is $100/person per month (low end was $40/month)--you wouldn't have needed more than that for the pretty basic skill used at the midnight madness event. Karate uniforms can be had for $25 bucks. Of course, it may have been an MU alum or booster who provided the lessons and uniforms at no charge as a donation in-kind to the Blue & Gold. Lets assume $1500 total--lessons + uniforms.
4 wheel drive rental--I couldn't find any costs--but my guess is that an MU booster loaned this at no charge. But lets say it cost $500 to rent it for the night.
Total is $8,157. Out of a $10,306,548 budget, that makes for a total of 0.0791%.
I know you guys who hate Crean will turn every molehill into a mountain, but this is pretty lame even for you.
The biggest line item here is the chamber, which seems to have a pretty substantial benefit--to the point where Wes Matthews was willing to consider buying his own--and based on the $33,000,000 cost of the the Al, was an almost insignificant expense.
Finally, Wes is having a good deal of success playing at Utah--elevation 4327. Anyone want to argue that his training in high-altitude conditions provided no advantage in making the transition to the NBA?
Sorry Marq84 what is truly lame is the fact that you would look up these costs and provide actual quaotes as evidence to your long winded diatribe. I am sure the days must be long and lonely in the state mental home, but you could probably spend your time more wisely. Mybe talk to nurse ratchett and try to plan a field trip for you and your inmates.
To me the most ridiculous thing about the chamber was that Crean was throwing out the cost to reporters. It's indicative of the kind of low-class individual he is...who talks about costs like that? Does he also talk about how much is house cost? Or his car? Or his wife's boob job? He must have a ton of friends...and not just the ones he buddies up to through "fan" letters.
God, I'm glad he's gone. What a complete tool...and the biggest phony I've encountered in my entire life.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 13, 2010, 09:44:40 AM
Don't mean to speak for 4ever but I think he's speaking to the silliness (hyperbaric chamber, karate lessons) and the tawdriness (midnight limo surprises) of the former administration. It was essentially a joke you evidently didn't get since you spent nine paragraphs with your cost analysis. Why so serious?
First, I don't think 4ever was joking--I think he was dead serious. He dislikes Crean immensely.
I responded by highlighting the silliness of complaining about .008% of the budget spent by someone who's been gone nearly 2 years.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 13, 2010, 12:18:22 PM
To me the most ridiculous thing about the chamber was that Crean was throwing out the cost to reporters. It's indicative of the kind of low-class individual he is...
So let me understand this . . .
Under Crean, MU bought a piece of equipment that was also used by the Green Bay Packers, the Detroit Pistons, the Miami Heat, the Phoenix Suns, numerous European soccer clubs, numerous individual all-Star athletes, etc.
A device that has been raved about by its many professional users--both in sports medicine and athletes themselves.
Our own players -including Wes Matthews, Jerel McNeal, and Dominic James--have voiced their approval.
The WORST anyone can say about it is that some (with all the authority that two semesters of anatomy/physiology provides) think it might not be as helpful as its users think.
The product was a nearly insignificant portion of just one year of MU's basketball basketball budget, and will provide multiple years of use.
It has provided MU with positive publicity in the national press that demonstrates the financial commitment MU continues to make its athletes and its athletic program.
And yet, you're still
complaining about it three years later?
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 12, 2010, 10:31:20 AM
Buzz also spends less on wardrobe, and doesn't: do karate lessons, ride 4 wheelers, own a hummer, buy/lease a hyperbolic chamber, etc.
In summary, I like Buzz, therefore the large budget is not his fault.
You're right...Buzz opted for the much more modest and discount automobile. He drives an Escalde. What a sacrifice.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 13, 2010, 12:18:22 PM
To me the most ridiculous thing about the chamber was that Crean was throwing out the cost to reporters. It's indicative of the kind of low-class individual he is...who talks about costs like that? Does he also talk about how much is house cost? Or his car? Or his wife's boob job? He must have a ton of friends...and not just the ones he buddies up to through "fan" letters.
God, I'm glad he's gone. What a complete tool...and the biggest phony I've encountered in my entire life.
Joanie had a boob job? She should ask for double her money back.
Spoke to an accountant at Michigan once and she said they do and all state schools do a lot to get expenses off the athletic P&L. Makes sense... taxpayers want to know the athletic programs are making huge money for the school while they are willing to have losses in academics. Thus, you might be able to compare private schools but not private to public.
Quote from: akmarq on January 13, 2010, 08:15:35 PM
You're right...Buzz opted for the much more modest and discount automobile. He drives an Escalde. What a sacrifice.
I would think having Bergstrom, a car dealer, on the Board might have more to do with that than you think. He also had those Hummers donated for the bball staff to drive a few years ago.
Quote from: muwarrior87 on January 14, 2010, 11:26:38 AM
I would think having Bergstrom, a car dealer, on the Board might have more to do with that than you think. He also had those Hummers donated for the bball staff to drive a few years ago.
It doesn't matter who donated them, I don't like TC, and therefore he is a douche for driving the free car that was given to him.
Buzz Williams is cool, so the Cadillac if fine with me.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on January 14, 2010, 12:57:05 AM
Spoke to an accountant at Michigan once and she said they do and all state schools do a lot to get expenses off the athletic P&L. Makes sense... taxpayers want to know the athletic programs are making huge money for the school while they are willing to have losses in academics. Thus, you might be able to compare private schools but not private to public.
Ding ding ding We have a winner
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 14, 2010, 11:32:02 AM
It doesn't matter who donated them, I don't like TC, and therefore he is a douche for driving the free car that was given to him.
Buzz Williams is cool, so the Cadillac if fine with me.
If you're considering a new career in stand up I wouldn't quit my day job just yet.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 14, 2010, 09:28:16 PM
If you're considering a new career in stand up I wouldn't quit my day job just yet.
Are you just looking for an argument?
If you are, just PM me so we can save everybody's time. We don't need to become Chico's vs Hayward.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 14, 2010, 09:36:23 PM
Are you just looking for an argument?
If you are, just PM me so we can save everybody's time. We don't need to become Chico's vs Hayward.
Not looking for an argument at all. Just noting that you used to make your points in a pretty straightforward manner and now you seem to be going the comedy/sarcasm route (see this thread and the one where you suggest Hayward go to Ames, IA and stab Christopherson in the face. Some people have a knack for comedy and some don't. Evidently I don't either since my post about you not giving up your day job was meant as a joke and you felt I was being confrontational.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 15, 2010, 08:34:34 AM
Not looking for an argument at all. Just noting that you used to make your points in a pretty straightforward manner and now you seem to be going the comedy/sarcasm route (see this thread and the one where you suggest Hayward go to Ames, IA and stab Christopherson in the face. Some people have a knack for comedy and some don't. Evidently I don't either since my post about you not giving up your day job was meant as a joke and you felt I was being confrontational.
Lenny - I'm going to suggest that a person who doesn't understand the response "don't quit your day job," is lacking a lot more than a knack for comedy.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 15, 2010, 08:34:34 AM
Not looking for an argument at all. Just noting that you used to make your points in a pretty straightforward manner and now you seem to be going the comedy/sarcasm route (see this thread and the one where you suggest Hayward go to Ames, IA and stab Christopherson in the face. Some people have a knack for comedy and some don't. Evidently I don't either since my post about you not giving up your day job was meant as a joke and you felt I was being confrontational.
Ehhh... you're probably right.
No need for all of the sarcasm, hyperbole (christopherson post) and whatnot. It doesn't play well over message boards anyways.
I'll be more straightforward:
There is an incredible double standard right now between Buzz Williams and the former MU coach.
I believe it exists because people "like" Buzz more, and therefore give him the benefit of the doubt on most things.
The problem with this is that evaluating a coach's ability and relative success has nothing to do with "liking" him.
There are several topics around here where Buzz is simply given a free pass because he isn't tan. I'm disappointed by that.
I wish you were less surprised and expected less of people. Especially on a message board. ;D
That said, if TC and IU were tearing up the B10, I think people might have a different impression of TC.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 15, 2010, 10:06:23 AM
I wish you were less surprised and expected less of people. Especially on a message board. ;D
That said, if TC and IU were tearing up the B10, I think people might have a different impression of TC.
Well, you're probably right. Anonymity probably breeds stupidity to a certain extent.
I just know that there is a lot of fist ringing that John Dodds is just a puppet for MU. This board represented a sort of "agenda-free" zone.
Well, I'm coming to the stark realization that people don't just have personal biases (we all have that), but some people have specific agendas when it comes to the topics they chose to post about.
Yes, Buzz is more likable. He appears to not be not self-centered, arrogant, and egotistical. This all washes well with the common folk. His basketball IQ seems very good also and his recruiting, thus far, is an improvement over the last coach. Although, I'll reserve final judgment on that citing inadequate sample size. He still needs some BE caliper bigmen. Finally, Buzz is still on his MU honeymoon. All coaches, regardless of the sport, must be judged on their record, and in particular, their post season record. So, we will see how Buzz Williams will eventually grade out.
Crean, on the other hand, irritates a lot of us in so many ways. He had the good fortune early on of Wade exploding resulting in both fame and $$$ for the coach. Hay brings up an interesting question as to where Crean would be right now had Wade not played for him. In response, my guess would be that Tom would likely be coaching at a lesser D1 school, getting very little exposure, and certainly less salary.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 15, 2010, 11:09:59 AM
Yes, Buzz is more likable. He appears to not be not self-centered, arrogant, and egotistical. This all washes well with the common folk.
I agree... but realistically, so what? I watch MU hoops. I don't have dinner with the coach every night. Win. Win cleanly. Win often.
His basketball IQ seems very good also and his recruiting, thus far, is an improvement over the last coach. I want to agree with this, but I probably need to see how good Junior and Vander turn out before I can go all in. TC did recruit some very good players.
Although, I'll reserve final judgment on that citing inadequate sample size. He still needs some BE caliper bigmen. Agree.
Finally, Buzz is still on his MU honeymoon. All coaches, regardless of the sport, must be judged on their record, and in particular, their post season record. So, we will see how Buzz Williams will eventually grade out.
I actually disagree somewhat here. Winning is important, but the postseason in college hoops is such a crapshoot sometimes that I don't put a ton of stock into it. A winning program and a winning coach will eventually win in the tournament. A couple of upsets aren't going to have me calling for his job.
Crean, on the other hand, irritates a lot of us in so many ways. He had the good fortune early on of Wade exploding resulting in both fame and $$$ for the coach. Hay brings up an interesting question as to where Crean would be right now had Wade not played for him. In response, my guess would be that Tom would likely be coaching at a lesser D1 school, getting very little exposure, and certainly less salary.
This is a terrible hypothetical because he did recruit wade and did land wade, so it doesn't f-ing matter. Why are you guys always trying to take things away from TC?
What if Al never landed GT? Would he have toiled away at MU for a few years and then been fired?
What if Buzz didn't get Jimmy Butler? Would he be on the hotseat right now?
What if KO didn't get lucky and have great in state talent the years he was coaching? What if UW was a good program back then, would KO have been able to land those guys?
BLAH BLAH BLAH
None of these matter.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 11:43:26 AM
The "difference" on the Wade to George Thompson (or any other MU recruit for that matter) is simple. The coach had real competition for the recruit. Because of Wade's academic standing he was not eligible at BCS schools or most other major universities. He went to MU because it presented the the best of a very limited number of opportunities. TC beat out Illinois St, but had Illinois or even Depaul come calling (let alone the "big" names) no way does he come to MU. Wade has admitted as much.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 11:43:26 AM
2002,
What exactly is your connection to Crean? There must be one. You usually only post to protect his legacy. Maybe if I understood your connection, I'd understand your absolute, over the top, Creanlove.
My stance on Crean, I hope, is somewhat more balanced. I think he did wonders for MU, for all the obvious reasons. He took a perceived (by him) step up. Wonderful. I think he may have seen the writing on the wall with some crappy recruiting after the 3 Amigos, but this happens in the business world all the time.
My biggest complaint was signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2 years. That contract was a strong commitment by MU, and he pissed all over it.
By the way, Al wasn't a one trick pony. He had top 10 recruits almost every year. TC may have been the most successful coach since Al, but long term, there is no comparison.
I liked KO because he won...his baggage wasn't well known until he left. I'm pretty sure he wishes he would have stayed (and been less of a slime bag)
I liked catching a beer with Deano, he was alot of fun. Pretty good coach, but didn't recruit worth a darn. Crean was a big upgrade.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 15, 2010, 12:38:24 PM
The "difference" on the Wade to George Thompson (or any other MU recruit for that matter) is simple. The coach had real competition for the recruit. Because of Wade's academic standing he was not eligible at BCS schools or most other major universities. He went to MU because it presented the the best of a very limited number of opportunities. TC beat out Illinois St, but had Illinois or even Depaul come calling (let alone the "big" names) no way does he come to MU. Wade has admitted as much.
Ok, so what if Al didn't land Benard Toone and/or Butch Lee and Bo Ellis.
He would have been terrible, right?
My point is that these hypotheticals are are silly, and really don't "prove" anything.
Strip the best player(s) away from any coach, and they won't have as good of a record. Shocker.
Of course Wade helped Crean make it to the big time. Nobody in their right mind could ever deny that. But, the speculation of where Crean would be without Wade is just stupid.
Where would Novak and Deiner be without Wade? Should we start a thread about that?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 15, 2010, 11:09:59 AM
Yes, Buzz is more likable. He appears to not be not self-centered, arrogant, and egotistical. This all washes well with the common folk. His basketball IQ seems very good also and his recruiting, thus far, is an improvement over the last coach. Although, I'll reserve final judgment on that citing inadequate sample size. He still needs some BE caliper bigmen. Finally, Buzz is still on his MU honeymoon. All coaches, regardless of the sport, must be judged on their record, and in particular, their post season record. So, we will see how Buzz Williams will eventually grade out.
Crean, on the other hand, irritates a lot of us in so many ways. He had the good fortune early on of Wade exploding resulting in both fame and $$$ for the coach. Hay brings up an interesting question as to where Crean would be right now had Wade not played for him. In response, my guess would be that Tom would likely be coaching at a lesser D1 school, getting very little exposure, and certainly less salary.
It's just a dumb analysis because Wade DID play for him. Wade DID go to MU. It's like saying where would UCLA be if Kareem didn't go there, would they have won 7 straight NCAA titles, would they have landed Bill Walton, etc,. No. But Kareem DID go there. What would Bill Walsh be like if Joe Montana didn't go there? How many yards does Emmitt Smith gain if he was on the Seahawks? How great a career would Len Bias have if he wasn't doing blow that night and died?
And no, I'm not comparing Crean to Wooden. But this constant bullcrap about it was all Wade, blah, blah, blah. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube fellas, he DID go to MU, he DID choose to play for CREAN, and we DID do well as a result. And we did well after Wade left also.
And IU will be fine in another year (assuming injuries, etc don't kill them again).
Quote from: mu-rara on January 15, 2010, 01:05:04 PM
2002,
What exactly is your connection to Crean? There must be one. You usually only post to protect his legacy. Maybe if I understood your connection, I'd understand your absolute, over the top, Creanlove.
My stance on Crean, I hope, is somewhat more balanced. I think he did wonders for MU, for all the obvious reasons. He took a perceived (by him) step up. Wonderful. I think he may have seen the writing on the wall with some crappy recruiting after the 3 Amigos, but this happens in the business world all the time.
My biggest complaint was signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2 years. That contract was a strong commitment by MU, and he pissed all over it.
By the way, Al wasn't a one trick pony. He had top 10 recruits almost every year. TC may have been the most successful coach since Al, but long term, there is no comparison.
I liked KO because he won...his baggage wasn't well known until he left. I'm pretty sure he wishes he would have stayed (and been less of a slime bag)
I liked catching a beer with Deano, he was alot of fun. Pretty good coach, but didn't recruit worth a darn. Crean was a big upgrade.
Let me be as clear as possible here:
I'm not "defending" TC in this thread. I've done it in the past, but that is definitely not my intention here.
I'm calling out the posters who used to roast MU's coach whenever they were given a chance, and now let everything slide because they "like" Buzz.
Have some nuts (and consistency), gentleman! If you were on the attack about everything under the sun before (budget, cars, radio show, style, press conferences), where are you now?
Buzz's suits look expensive. He must be a douche.
Buzz drives a Caddy. His ego is too big.
Buzz sounded bad on the radio show. His personality sucks.
Let's go boys, let 'er rip!
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 01:36:02 PM
Let me be as clear as possible here:
I'm not "defending" TC in this thread. I've done it in the past, but that is definitely not my intention here.
I'm calling out the posters who used to roast MU's coach whenever they were given a chance, and now let everything slide because they "like" Buzz.
Have some nuts (and consistency), gentleman! If you were on the attack about everything under the sun before (budget, cars, radio show, style, press conferences), where are you now?
Buzz's suits look expensive. He must be a douche.
Buzz drives a Caddy. His ego is too big.
Buzz sounded bad on the radio show. His personality sucks.
Let's go boys, let 'er rip!
I hope there is more to Buzz's support than "liking" him. He did well with TC's players. He has recruited well. He is exceeding expectations with an inexperienced team. All positives.
I am not ready to annoint him the end all. He needs to earn that over the longer term. He sure has done well in the short term.
I "liked" KO (I met him once) because he won. I liked Mike Deane because he was an affable, funny guy. I shed no tears when he was fired. The program was going nowhere.
Again I ask, what is the root of your support for Crean? You let no perceived slight go by (and Chicos is right behind)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 15, 2010, 12:38:24 PM
The "difference" on the Wade to George Thompson (or any other MU recruit for that matter) is simple. The coach had real competition for the recruit. Because of Wade's academic standing he was not eligible at BCS schools or most other major universities. He went to MU because it presented the the best of a very limited number of opportunities. TC beat out Illinois St, but had Illinois or even Depaul come calling (let alone the "big" names) no way does he come to MU. Wade has admitted as much.
DePaul did recruit Wade. They offered him but told him he wouldn't play much until his junior because of the depth of the team. While he was deciding whether or not that was good enough, they got a commitment from Imari Sawyer(a McD's AA) which meant they had no more scholarships available, and their administration wouldn't let them take a commit with no scholarship available.
Quote from: mu-rara on January 15, 2010, 02:12:13 PM
I hope there is more to Buzz's support than "liking" him. He did well with TC's players. He has recruited well. He is exceeding expectations with an inexperienced team. All positives.
I am not ready to annoint him the end all. He needs to earn that over the longer term. He sure has done well in the short term.
I "liked" KO (I met him once) because he won. I liked Mike Deane because he was an affable, funny guy. I shed no tears when he was fired. The program was going nowhere.
Again I ask, what is the root of your support for Crean? You let no perceived slight go by (and Chicos is right behind)
I have no connection to him, and I assure you that there are hundreds of "slights" that go by without my commentary.
Admittedly in the past I've been baited into some threads and debates re: Crean. Often time Chico's and I are labeled as "defenders" because I didn't rip on Crean for driving a yellow hummer, and I call out posters who get pissed about that type of stuff.
In my mind, TC wasn't perfect, and there were certainly some things you can rip on him for. But, it seemed like people were taking anything/everything and using it against him. I thought it was stupid, and I said as much.
Now, a lot of those posters have gone silent when the same type of issues come up. Where's all of the outrage now?
Buzz used a limo to recruit a player. He's a terrible person.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 02:31:03 PM
Now, a lot of those posters have gone silent when the same type of issues come up. Where's all of the outrage now?
Buzz used a limo to recruit a player. He's a terrible person.
That's because it runs on E-85
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on January 15, 2010, 02:32:36 PM
That's because it runs on E-85
Don't get me started on how we're using a major food supply (corn and corn byproducts are in everything) to fuel America's cars while driving up the cost of food. (if it was algae based E-85, I have no problem)
I think maybe a reason the spending has hit a nerve in the Buzz - TC fiasco is because there was a certain amount of trust MU fans put in TC and many of us still feel was betrayed. Not the typical college coach stuff, but lifestyle/image - wise.
TC was personality-wise as far from Al as you could get, and we all sensed it. There was a certain amount of deal-with-the-devil, learn to love TC that we found easier once we started winning. Then the orange tan that would've made Al shudder became a little more okay, and soon he was "our guy." But the combination of his image and being a private school was still unsettling to a lot of the MU fans who embraced the more Milwaukee blue collar throwback perspective.
Then he leaves and we all look around and feel betrayed because this guy we had learned to love and identify with was gone. Thats where Buzz's likeability comes in. He reminds particularly older MU alums of when we were uptown people again, at least a little. His aw-shucks... ness reminds MU of kegs in the urinals and embraces that little bit of inferiority complex, underdog mentality we all embrace and love about Marquette. So even if Buzz does drive an Escalade, he doesn't seem to wear that wealthy high spending image on his sleeve, an image that blue collar MU fans are (maybe rightfully) hyper-sensitive about. At least there aren't orange tans and just a general aura of $$ like TC seemed to embody. MU doesn't feel as uneasy about embracing him.
PS: Sorry if I stepped on any toes by trying to generalize the MU fan base. I am a younger alum so it probably isn't fair of me to say what I perceive Warriors fans were like before I was even born; but misconceived or not, its sort of what I've come to appreciate and identify with as far as history. But at the end of the day its nothing more than my misguided interpretation.
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 15, 2010, 02:45:08 PM
I think maybe a reason the spending has hit a nerve in the Buzz - TC fiasco is because there was a certain amount of trust MU fans put in TC and many of us still feel was betrayed. Not the typical college coach stuff, but lifestyle/image - wise.
TC was personality-wise as far from Al as you could get, and we all sensed it. There was a certain amount of deal-with-the-devil, learn to love TC that we found easier once we started winning. Then the orange tan that would've made Al shudder became a little more okay, and soon he was "our guy." But the combination of his image and being a private school was still unsettling to a lot of the MU fans who embraced the more Milwaukee blue collar throwback perspective.
Then he leaves and we all look around and feel betrayed because this guy we had learned to love and identify with was gone. Thats where Buzz's likeability comes in. He reminds particularly older MU alums of when we were uptown people again, at least a little. His aw-shucks... ness reminds MU of kegs in the urinals and embraces that little bit of inferiority complex, underdog mentality we all embrace and love about Marquette. So even if Buzz does drive an Escalade, he doesn't seem to wear that wealthy high spending image on his sleeve, an image that blue collar MU fans are (maybe rightfully) hyper-sensitive about. At least there aren't orange tans and just a general aura of $$ like TC seemed to embody. MU doesn't feel as uneasy about embracing him.
PS: Sorry if I stepped on any toes by trying to generalize the MU fan base. I am a younger alum so it probably isn't fair of me to say what I perceive Warriors fans were like before I was even born; but misconceived or not, its sort of what I've come to appreciate and identify with as far as history. But at the end of the day its nothing more than my misguided interpretation.
I agree with everything you say here. I do find Buzz to be very likable.
My only point in this whole thing is that "likability" shouldn't have much to do with how we evaluate a coach.
All coaches should be evaluated equally.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 01:36:02 PM
Let me be as clear as possible here:
I'm not "defending" TC in this thread. I've done it in the past, but that is definitely not my intention here.
I'm calling out the posters who used to roast MU's coach whenever they were given a chance, and now let everything slide because they "like" Buzz.
Have some nuts (and consistency), gentleman! If you were on the attack about everything under the sun before (budget, cars, radio show, style, press conferences), where are you now?
Buzz's suits look expensive. He must be a douche.
Buzz drives a Caddy. His ego is too big.
Buzz sounded bad on the radio show. His personality sucks.
Let's go boys, let 'er rip!
I think you're missing the point. People don't dislike Crean because of his tan, his ties or the car that he drives. They dislike him because they they think he's a phony who treats people he can't use poorly. If Buzz proves to share these character flaws (no evidence of that so far) people will dislike him and make fun of him like they do TC.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 02:54:25 PM
My only point in this whole thing is that "likability" shouldn't have much to do with how we evaluate a coach.
All coaches should be evaluated equally.
I have said this in the past regarding some of your "brett favre/packer fan" feelings related posts...
You are asking society to behave in a manner that, while fair and just, will never happen.
Sorry.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 01:29:24 PM
Where would Novak and Deiner be without Wade? Should we start a thread about that?
Answer: The NBA.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 15, 2010, 02:57:07 PM
I think you're missing the point. People don't dislike Crean because of his tan, his ties or the car that he drives. They dislike him because they they think he's a phony who treats people he can't use poorly. If Buzz proves to share these character flaws (no evidence of that so far) people will dislike him and make fun of him like they do TC.
I understand what you are saying, but for me personally, it seemed like everything the guy did was used against him.
If Crean uses a limo, it's because he has a huge ego.
If buzz uses a limo, it's because it's a good recruiting technique.
I can't get over stuff like that.
Quote from: The Lens on January 15, 2010, 03:04:43 PM
Answer: The NBA.
I doubt that. Crean would have messed them up. ::)
Wade made them.
I just have one question.
Who wants to sex Mutombo?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 15, 2010, 12:38:24 PM
The "difference" on the Wade to George Thompson (or any other MU recruit for that matter) is simple. The coach had real competition for the recruit. Because of Wade's academic standing he was not eligible at BCS schools or most other major universities. He went to MU because it presented the the best of a very limited number of opportunities. TC beat out Illinois St, but had Illinois or even Depaul come calling (let alone the "big" names) no way does he come to MU. Wade has admitted as much.
But that ignores the big time competition we had for Novak, James, Matthews, McNeal, etc. You guys seem to want to make one argument for one player and ignore that very argument for other players.
The thing that absolutely drives me crazy is the complete double standard hypocrisy that is applied here and the only reason it's applied is because the guy didn't have a beer or pissed someone off.
At the end of the day, we won and we won BIG and we went places we haven't gone in 3 decades. And we did it cleanly.
Quote from: muwarrior87 on January 15, 2010, 02:39:09 PM
Don't get me started on how we're using a major food supply (corn and corn byproducts are in everything) to fuel America's cars while driving up the cost of food. (if it was algae based E-85, I have no problem)
+1, but that's for another day. ;D
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 03:10:28 PM
I understand what you are saying, but for me personally, it seemed like everything the guy did was used against him.
If Crean uses a limo, it's because he has a huge ego.
If buzz uses a limo, it's because it's a good recruiting technique.
I can't get over stuff like that.
Here's an example: Two preachers. One you find honest and sincere (think Billy Graham, maybe). The other you find cynical and self aggrandizing (think Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggert, maybe). The phonies are ridiculed for everything including their suits and cars. The honest and sincere guy, not so much.
QuoteI agree with everything you say here. I do find Buzz to be very likable.
My only point in this whole thing is that "likability" shouldn't have much to do with how we evaluate a coach.
All coaches should be evaluated equally.
Generally I think thats true, but in this case I honestly don't know what I think. Its funny to say, but I think there are a lot of cases where I would rather like my coach than win a couple of extra games with him. College sports get into this particularly: Tubby Smith v. Calipari, Fulmer v. Kiffin, early 00's Paterno v... someone else? When you consider the identity of a school, the kind of person that leads a program, I think there's more of a give and take there, and honestly judgments by the fan base don't need to be fair and unbiased. If Buzz conducts himself in a certain way that he doesn't use all of his slack being a dislikeable person, fans and boosters are okay with him spending more. There is a finite amount of goodwill that can be used in a lot of ways. However I do agree that the only way to increase that goodwill is winning.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 15, 2010, 03:36:57 PM
Here's an example: Two preachers. One you find honest and sincere (think Billy Graham, maybe). The other you find cynical and self aggrandizing (think Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggert, maybe). The phonies are ridiculed for everything including their suits and cars. Te honest and sincere guy, not so much.
How about this one:
I like Brett Favre, he's just a winner, so I believe in him.
I hate Aaron Rodgers, and I think his haircut sucks and his ego is through the roof. He'll never be Brett Favre. What a poser.
Is that ok to say? It sounds idiotic... but it's similar to what you are getting at, right?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 15, 2010, 03:29:12 PM
But that ignores the big time competition we had for Novak, James, Matthews, McNeal, etc. You guys seem to want to make one argument for one player and ignore that very argument for other players.
The thing that absolutely drives me crazy is the complete double standard hypocrisy that is applied here and the only reason it's applied is because the guy didn't have a beer or pissed someone off.
At the end of the day, we won and we won BIG and we went places we haven't gone in 3 decades. And we didn't cleanly.
I give full credit to TC for getting Deiner, Novak, James, McNeal and Matthews. I also give him credit for running a clean program with high graduation rates. He was a tireless worker promoting himself and Marquette U. I don't know how much of this would have happened had Wade not fallen into his lap, but I'm greatful he caught him and convinced Fr Wild to take a chance on him. I rooted for him and MU with all my heart. I defended him against his critics. This grew increasingly difficult over time as "his character was revealed" (sorry to steal a Buzz line). But I held my nose and cheered nonetheless. I'm just happy I don't have to hold my nose anymore.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 04:00:40 PM
How about this one:
I like Brett Favre, he's just a winner, so I believe in him.
I hate Aaron Rodgers, and I think his haircut sucks and his ego is through the roof. He'll never be Brett Favre. What a poser.
Is that ok to say? It sounds idiotic... but it's similar to what you are getting at, right?
No and yes. No, it's not ok and similar to what I was getting at and yes, it sounds idiotic.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 15, 2010, 04:09:27 PM
No and yes. No, it's not ok and similar to what I was getting at and yes, it sounds idiotic.
Alright. No problem.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
To sum up my stance (straight forward posting 101):
I think a lot of the personal criticism of TC was uncalled for. It seemed like people with an agenda trying to stoke some embers.
Now that the same critiques are not offered for Buzz Williams, it cements my previous belief.
The only common ground Crean and McGuire shared was they both loved to talk. One, is shallow, insincere, and completely unbelievable. The other had the absolute best mouthpiece I've ever heard. His wit and wisdom was something the rich, poor, educated or not could both understand and relate to. This in part was a reason for his enormous success a a recruiter. Crean can't carry his jockstrap. Times were different then, but Al sealed the deal year after year with the top recruits. Crean got only DJ, Jerel, and Wes after Wade.
As far as getting the toothpaste back in the tube, I'm still working on that one.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 15, 2010, 01:29:24 PM
Where would Novak and Deiner be without Wade? Should we start a thread about that?
What the heck, I'll ask: Where would Wade be without Diener?
Probably in the same place, but without Diener "carrying" the team through the first two rounds in 2003, Wade wouldn't have had the same kind of publicity going into the draft. I wonder if that would have cost Wade some draft positions.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 15, 2010, 05:04:14 PM
What the heck, I'll ask: Where would Wade be without Diener?
Probably in the same place, but without Diener "carrying" the team through the first two rounds in 2003, Wade wouldn't have had the same kind of publicity going into the draft. I wonder if that would have cost Wade some draft positions.
If Wade doesn't get to play vs Pitt and Kentucky he goes later in the draft. Maybe even a slight chance he stays at MU one more year. Not likely though.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 15, 2010, 03:36:57 PM
Here's an example: Two preachers. One you find honest and sincere (think Billy Graham, maybe). The other you find cynical and self aggrandizing (think Jim Baker or Jimmy Swaggert, maybe). The phonies are ridiculed for everything including their suits and cars. The honest and sincere guy, not so much.
Interesting analogy, but I'd say not germane.
I'd prefer a coaching one. I've known coaches that were some of the biggest assholes on the planet, but they won. While others were nice guys but didn't win as much.
This is a results oriented business. I hope we got the guy that is nice and wins (Mike Scioscia, John Wooden, etc). But if I have to pick nice guy and wins some of the time vs complete jerk that wins more and takes us to the places we don't go, I'm going with the latter.
Just the way it is. Win, do it cleanly, put a few guys into the pros, don't have players on the police blotter, make sure the kids are passing classes, and no NCAA violations. That's already a lot to ask, if he's a douche in the process....so be it. If he's a wonderful human being, fantastic and much more preferable.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 15, 2010, 04:22:53 PM
The only common ground Crean and McGuire shared was they both loved to talk. One, is shallow, insincere, and completely unbelievable. The other had the absolute best mouthpiece I've ever heard. His wit and wisdom was something the rich, poor, educated or not could both understand and relate to. This in part was a reason for his enormous success a a recruiter. Crean can't carry his jockstrap. Times were different then, but Al sealed the deal year after year with the top recruits. Crean got only DJ, Jerel, and Wes after Wade.
As far as getting the toothpaste back in the tube, I'm still working on that one.
Why are we comparing TC to AL to begin with? They're two totally different people from a different age and a different situation.
At the end of the day, they both won. No one is going to be AL, whether it's charisma or what he did on the court. Of course he can't carry his jockstrap, neither could anyone else in the program or 99% of other coaches in America.
At the end of the day, what we accomplished in the last 10 years is better than what we've done in the previous 25 years and we did it the right way. I'd just like to see us continue that, whether it's Buzz (I hope it is) or someone else, just keep winning, keep going to the NCAAs, keep kids off the police blotter, no NCAA issues, no grades issues and hopefully a deep run every so often.
My bigger concern is that as much as TC couldn't hold Al's jock, we haven't had anyone else in our history other than Al that could hold TC's jock...on the court that is. For as much of an pretty boy that he was, he got results.
I expect similar results from his successor(s).