The Warriors boil down to 7 players. Consisting of 4 guards and 3 forwards. In that mix are 2 undersized guards, 2 newcomers, 1 dude who was hurt last season, and only 1 senior leader. In this post, I won't rag on the former coach who left the cupboard bare.
Buzz is getting the max out of the Marquette 7. It's amazing we're even able to bitch about the near wins. This team should be getting their collective asses handed to them. Getting 2 BE ready players with the remaining scholarships, coupled with a healthy Otule and Jr., then bring in Vander and crew; well, I'm optimistic.
I could not agree more
I agree, but it is still extremely frustrating losing these games.
To further your point, our 7 man rotation consists of
1 miniature PG
1 miniature SG posing as a PG
2 SG
3 SF
I thought the 12th place prediction was right when we had a healthy Maymon and Otule. I am amazed at how well these guys battle. I know we keep blowing these games at the end, but these guys really compete. I hope they can keep their heads up all season. If they don't (or can't) continue giving max effort every game this season could end badly.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 06:11:17 PM
The Warriors boil down to 7 players. Consisting of 4 guards and 3 forwards. In that mix are 2 undersized guards, 2 newcomers, 1 dude who was hurt last season, and only 1 senior leader. In this post, I won't rag on the former coach who left the cupboard bare.
Buzz is getting the max out of the Marquette 7. It's amazing we're even able to bitch about the near wins. This team should be getting their collective asses handed to them. Getting 2 BE ready players with the remaining scholarships, coupled with a healthy Otule and Jr., then bring in Vander and crew; well, I'm optimistic.
Post of the year.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 06:11:17 PM
The Warriors boil down to 7 players. Consisting of 4 guards and 3 forwards. In that mix are 2 undersized guards, 2 newcomers, 1 dude who was hurt last season, and only 1 senior leader. In this post, I won't rag on the former coach who left the cupboard bare.
Buzz is getting the max out of the Marquette 7. It's amazing we're even able to bitch about the near wins. This team should be getting their collective asses handed to them. Getting 2 BE ready players with the remaining scholarships, coupled with a healthy Otule and Jr., then bring in Vander and crew; well, I'm optimistic.
I completely agree with you.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 06:11:17 PM
The Warriors boil down to 7 players. Consisting of 4 guards and 3 forwards. In that mix are 2 undersized guards, 2 newcomers, 1 dude who was hurt last season, and only 1 senior leader. In this post, I won't rag on the former coach who left the cupboard bare.
Buzz is getting the max out of the Marquette 7. It's amazing we're even able to bitch about the near wins. This team should be getting their collective asses handed to them. Getting 2 BE ready players with the remaining scholarships, coupled with a healthy Otule and Jr., then bring in Vander and crew; well, I'm optimistic.
Getting the two BE ready players with the open scholarships is the key. Where will they come from.
It's amazing that we've been so competitive vs. quality teams. Tremendous effort in a rebuilding year!
+1
I couldn't have said it any better.
To me it's been an enjoyable season and we will yet win some big games.
It is good that DJO, Byucks, and Butler are getting crunch time experience. They have never been asked to play roles like this in crunch time at the high D1 level and to be honest it really shows.
It is only January and most of us expected 4 or 5 losses by now anyway, so we are on track or even better.
The schedule should get easier, and you never know, maybe Mboa and Williams will be able to give a few minutes by the end of the month. Hopefully Buycks and DJO will give a little bit more consistent performances too.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 06:11:17 PM
The Warriors boil down to 7 players. Consisting of 4 guards and 3 forwards. In that mix are 2 undersized guards, 2 newcomers, 1 dude who was hurt last season, and only 1 senior leader. In this post, I won't rag on the former coach who left the cupboard bare.
Buzz is getting the max out of the Marquette 7. It's amazing we're even able to bitch about the near wins. This team should be getting their collective asses handed to them. Getting 2 BE ready players with the remaining scholarships, coupled with a healthy Otule and Jr., then bring in Vander and crew; well, I'm optimistic.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this. I drove up from Chicago to see the game, and I tell you - our team is one tough bunch of guys who never quit. They have played TWO Top 10 teams this week, and lost both by a total of 3 points.
Color me impressed. Thanks again for posting this spot on description and putting things in perspective. :)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2010, 06:30:22 PM
Post of the year.
Lenny man, the year is only 2 days old. Give me more props. How 'bout "post of the decade?" ;D
While I agree with the post, the next rationale questions is why we don't see more of the bench?
Quote from: warriorfred on January 02, 2010, 07:48:35 PM
While I agree with the post, the next rationale questions is why we don't see more of the bench?
"redacted"
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 06:11:17 PM
The Warriors boil down to 7 players. Consisting of 4 guards and 3 forwards. In that mix are 2 undersized guards, 2 newcomers, 1 dude who was hurt last season, and only 1 senior leader. In this post, I won't rag on the former coach who left the cupboard bare.
Buzz is getting the max out of the Marquette 7. It's amazing we're even able to bitch about the near wins. This team should be getting their collective asses handed to them. Getting 2 BE ready players with the remaining scholarships, coupled with a healthy Otule and Jr., then bring in Vander and crew; well, I'm optimistic.
I'm very optimistic as well....they're playing their hearts out and Buzz is doing a wonderful job....I still disagree with the cupboard bare comments...this team with TT, TW, SC, TM wou8"ld not have lost these last games and the team would have had additional talent all over the place (including not having to play a 5'8 PG that may minutes...though I am glad that Buzz begged him back because as you state, rationally, we would be even worse if he hadn't). They didn't want to play for Buzz Williams, that's just the way it goes but if they had, MU would be winning these games.
Let's hope Buzz can fill those last few spots and avoid the injury bug in the future. Still very frustrating to see us compete like we do for 38 or 39 minutes and come up with a loss because we can't seem to close teams out.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2010, 08:10:43 PM
I'm very optimistic as well....they're playing their hearts out and Buzz is doing a wonderful job....I still disagree with the cupboard bare comments...this team with TT, TW, SC, TM wou8"ld not have lost these last games and the team would have had additional talent all over the place (including not having to play a 5'8 PG that may minutes...though I am glad that Buzz begged him back because as you state, rationally, we would be even worse if he hadn't). They didn't want to play for Buzz Williams,that's just the way it goes but if they had, MU would be winning these games.
Let's hope Buzz can fill those last few spots and avoid the injury bug in the future. Still very frustrating to see us compete like we do for 38 or 39 minutes and come up with a loss because we can't seem to close teams out.
What was Buzz supposed to do, defy the odds that nearly every new coach faces in that players transfer or decommit when the head coach that signed them leaves for a different job?
Some players may sign to play for a certain university, but many sign first to play for the head coach who recruited them and the university second. The Taylor loss was the only really big one, but him leaving once Cream bolted his pretty common in situations like that. Taylor signed with Marquette to play for Crean, not Buzz.
Quote from: warriorfred on January 02, 2010, 07:48:35 PM
While I agree with the post, the next rationale questions is why we don't see more of the bench?
Dude, what bench would that be? We ain't got no bench.
Quote from: warriorfred on January 02, 2010, 07:48:35 PM
While I agree with the post, the next rationale questions is why we don't see more of the bench?
Because we're not building comfortable leads late in the second half.
Thanks for the reminder. This actually made me realize I am watching this season's games with the expectations of last season's team. It is really exciting to see us be truly competitive against big teams (rankings-wise and literal height-wise). Just hope these guys can keep their heads up after these heartbreakers and learn from each game, win or lose. (I'm talking to you, Buycks, and learning to shoot more quickly when we have less than 3 seconds to get a shot off...)
the effort these guys put forth is admirable and worthy of the Marquette legacy. Hope we do get some good wins in and make it to the NCAA tourney so Hayward can end his college career in the dance.
This is right on. The story here is not that MU is losing close games as some people seem to want to think it is. The story is that MU has been able to hang with teams that are significantly better and deeper than they are. We have no business playing with Villanova, or WVU on the road, let alone beating them. I realize a FT or two here and there would have resulted in wins, but even being in a position to win those games is frankly an accomplishment for this group.
Quote from: El Duderino on January 02, 2010, 08:29:04 PM
What was Buzz supposed to do, defy the odds that nearly every new coach faces in that players transfer or decommit when the head coach that signed them leaves for a different job?
Some players may sign to play for a certain university, but many sign first to play for the head coach who recruited them and the university second. The Taylor loss was the only really big one, but him leaving once Cream bolted his pretty common in situations like that. Taylor signed with Marquette to play for Crean, not Buzz.
Like I said, it is what is. The same thing will happen when Buzz leaves, players will go elsewhere. My only point is that it's silly to say the cupboard was bare....it wasn't, they just chose not to play for MU and Buzz. That's a big difference in my mind.
To me, to say the cupboard is bare is an example of when Mike Deane left...that's having the cupboard bare. A few decent players but nothing to write home about and we WANTED players to transfer. Same when KO came in....we WANTED players to transfer for upgrades. When TC left, we DID NOT want players to transfer because they were talented players...thus, the cupboard not being bare just by definition.
Question: Rationally, who is responsible and accountable for the product out on the floor?
Excuses are like an anatomical part--every one has one.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on January 02, 2010, 09:43:46 PM
This is right on. The story here is not that MU is losing close games as some people seem to want to think it is. The story is that MU has been able to hang with teams that are significantly better and deeper than they are. We have no business playing with Villanova, or WVU on the road, let alone beating them. I realize a FT or two here and there would have resulted in wins, but even being in a position to win those games is frankly an accomplishment for this group.
Hmmm...interesting. I guess it depends on how you view it. I'd say "hanging" with a team means being within striking range the whole game and coming up short. What's frustrating with these games is that MU is leading most of the games or at the end (FSU, Nova, WVU) only to stop executing at the end. I'd argue we're doing more than hanging with them, we are doing enough to win the games but fall short at crunch time.
I forget, other than Trevor, Crean left Buzz how many players over 6'6" to work with?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 10:29:59 PM
I forget, other than Trevor, Crean left Buzz how many players over 6'6" to work with?
I believe that was the only one....but he left him with a guard that starts currently for the #1 team in the country. In my mind, our weakest play right now is at the point guard position which is the MOST IMPORTANT position in college basketball.
Height is wonderful, but you can win without height in college.
Here we go again. Repeat after me, "Basketball is a big man's game." Better yet, write it on the board 500 times.
Name the last NCAA Champion whose starters were no taller than 6'6".
Even with the missed free throws in West Virginia, there was some bad luck in that loss. That game winner Butler made was a tough shot, one he'd miss more than he'd make if he took the same shot a dozen times. The possession before that, Ebanks dribbles the ball off his own leg and it pops right back to him before he dunks it. In today's game, all Butler has to do is attack the rim immediately instead of looking for contact and we are up a point with only 3 seconds left.
Obviously Marquette has done some things poorly to themselves late in both games that contributed heavily to each loss, but it would be nice if they also caught a break late in close games once in awhile. Have an opposing player actually miss one of these tough shots they always end up making even if our players make some mistakes. It would be nice for once in a close game to be able to say like the Nova kids could say today, whew, thank god so and so player missed that last shot.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 10:38:20 PM
Here we go again. Repeat after me, "Basketball is a big man's game." Better yet, write it on the board 500 times.
Name the last NCAA Champion whose starters were no taller than 6'6".
You are college basketball is a guards game. Your first post was spot on, this one reeks of stupidity.
Yes, the NCAA Champion/best team in the country will have a good inside presence...but collectively...college basketball is a GUARDS game.
Quote from: nyg on January 02, 2010, 06:41:11 PM
Getting the two BE ready players with the open scholarships is the key. Where will they come from.
The odds off Buzz finding a Big East ready player for next year are pretty low. If JM does not come back, our inside game will consist of Butler, Fulce, O'tule, Mbao, and EWill.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 10:38:20 PM
Here we go again. Repeat after me, "Basketball is a big man's game." Better yet, write it on the board 500 times.
Name the last NCAA Champion whose starters were no taller than 6'6".
Repeat after me, name a NCAA champion who didn't have an outstanding point guard.
Besides, we're not talking about being NCAA champions, we're talking about being competitive in DI at a high level, which can be done with great guards if you don't have great bigs.
Are you saying that Cubillan and Acker are better than TT and we wouldn't be that much better with TT? Come on
Have a great point guard in college and you can win....this is why so many HOF coaches say college basketball is a guards game.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2010, 10:33:25 PM
I believe that was the only one....but he left him with a guard that starts currently for the #1 team in the country. In my mind, our weakest play right now is at the point guard position which is the MOST IMPORTANT position in college basketball.
Height is wonderful, but you can win without height in college.
Big difference between leaving a player already on the roster and a high school commit who are more prone to change their mind once a head coach leaves.
Plus, Buzz did sign a highly recruited PG who likely would be starting if yet another bad luck injury hadn't ended his season.
I'm sure there have been a few other teams hit very hard by injuries the last few years, but the number of serious injuries to hit recruits of Buzz is ridiculous. It's been rare for one of the kids to just say strain a quad or twist an ankle. Instead they all seem to get out for the year injuries and/or have their basketball career ended before it could start like in the case of Liam.
Without the terrible injury luck, we very well could of had Liam and Chris Otule giving us minutes in the paint this year and Junior Cadougan starting at PG. That's a devastating trio of injuries for a team that was already facing losing Jerel, Wes, and Dominic.
I agree with the original post 100%. Yeah, it's frustrating to lose the last two games, but I'm also a realist on this season. They are coming up just short with a lineup that doesn't exactly scream top-of-the-big-east. I'm still optimistic on how this year turns out, but also excited about next year...big time.
One last thing re: today's game....Scottie Reynolds is great and that was a tough friggin' shot he hit at the end.
Not sure what the goals of posters, then, is on this board. I prefer to compete for the NCAA Championship. BTW, Crean gifted us with both Cubillan and Acker.
Quote from: El Duderino on January 02, 2010, 10:58:16 PM
Big difference between leaving a player already on the roster and a high school commit who are more prone to change their mind once a head coach leaves.
I don't disagree with you, but the same thing will happen when Buzz leaves....the recruits he has will go elsewhere. It's not that the cupboard is bare, it is simply a matter of the players wanting to play for that coach or not wanting to play for school he signed with if that coach isn't there. Rest assured, it will happen when Buzz leaves, too. Just the nature of the beast.
And yes, we've had a terrible amount of bad luck that goes beyond just the last two Buzz years. We've had bad injury luck the last 5 or 6 years. Diener, McNeal, Liam, Junior, DJ, etc, etc It's been very unfortunate.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 11:04:30 PM
Not sure what the goals of posters, then, is on this board. I prefer to compete for the NCAA Championship. BTW, Crean gifted us with both Cubillan and Acker.
Just admit that college basketball is a GUARDS game, like any intelligent basketball observer can see...and maybe you will earn back a little bit of the respect you earned with your initial post.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 07:35:04 PM
Lenny man, the year is only 2 days old. Give me more props. How 'bout "post of the decade?" ;D
2 down, 363 to go. You may go wire to wire but I don't want you to rest on your laurels.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2010, 11:07:29 PM
I don't disagree with you, but the same thing will happen when Buzz leaves....the recruits he has will go elsewhere. It's not that the cupboard is bare, it is simply a matter of the players wanting to play for that coach or not wanting to play for school he signed with if that coach isn't there. Rest assured, it will happen when Buzz leaves, too. Just the nature of the beast.
Yes that it common which lead to the end result of the cupboard being bare at both inside players and at PG, so Buzz was left with only spare parts at the PG position. From there Buzz did the best thing he could possibly do, he went out and landed a top 10 point guard recruit. Unfortunately Junior got hurt.
That's why it's baffling to me that some here are always complaining the Buzz plays Acker and Cubillian so much. What the hell do they want Buzz to do? They are the only point guards he has to work with. Unless Buzz can take up voodoo and get magical healing powers for Junior, no other point guard will be walking on the court until next year.
When in only one season a program loses three seniors like we lost, their head coach, and the new coach gets ravaged by season ending injuries, you'll get what we see this year. An undermanned roster where the coach has no choice except to play role player types many more minutes than he'd prefer.
The losses of course sting to me, but i'm proud of how the kids are competing and also i'm encouraged that Buzz is showing he can coach, he's not only a good recruiter.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 11:04:30 PM
Not sure what the goals of posters, then, is on this board. I prefer to compete for the NCAA Championship. BTW, Crean gifted us with both Cubillan and Acker.
I thought you weren't going to blame this on him:
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 06:11:17 PM
In this post, I won't rag on the former coach who left the cupboard bare.
Its amazing that a 2 pt loss could be blamed on the coach from 2 years ago. Amazing.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2010, 10:33:25 PM
I believe that was the only one....but he left him with a guard that starts currently for the #1 team in the country. In my mind, our weakest play right now is at the point guard position which is the MOST IMPORTANT position in college basketball.
Height is wonderful, but you can win without height in college.
Repeating a lie over and over again does not make it the truth. Tom Crean DID NOT leave Buzz and MU with Tyshawn Taylor when he went to IU. TC's defection made TT a FREE AGENT eligible to attend ANY college or university. His ALWAYS dream school had unexpected early defections to the NBA and so they offered and as a FREE AGENT TT accepted. Crean, Buzz and 344 other D1 coaches never had a chance against KU. And you know this as well as everybody else.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 11:04:30 PM
Not sure what the goals of posters, then, is on this board. I prefer to compete for the NCAA Championship. BTW, Crean gifted us with both Cubillan and Acker.
Correct, he gifted us with them as ROLE players, not starters. If I recall correctly, Acker was off the team but Buzz begged him back....damn good thing he did.
And yes, we all want to win a NCAA championship, but the reality is that you have to walk before you run. Quality guards is where it all starts.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2010, 11:48:36 PM
Repeating a lie over and over again does not make it the truth. Tom Crean DID NOT leave Buzz and MU with Tyshawn Taylor when he went to IU. TC's defection made TT a FREE AGENT eligible to attend ANY college or university. His ALWAYS dream school had unexpected early defections to the NBA and so they offered and as a FREE AGENT TT accepted. Crean, Buzz and 344 other D1 coaches never had a chance against KU. And you know this as well as everybody else.
That is 100% incorrect and you know it. Buzz flew down and met with TT and his family, well documented. Continuing to ignore the facts does not make your claim true, yet you continue to do it.
And this free agent nonsense....what are you talking about. He signed a LOI, there is no such thing as Free Agency in college. Buzz made a pitch to keep him, the player, his family and coach said no thanks. They then moved on. He became a "free agent" after MU released him from his LOI, which MU didn't have to do. Secondly, that release happened AFTER Buzz met with player, coach and family. Why these facts are so devoid for you is pretty incredible.
Simply put, if TC was still at MU then TT would be playing for MU...period. TC left, he didn't want to play for Buzz and MU anymore. I don't know why this very simple fact isn't clear as a bell for you.
The other SIMPLE fact is that when coaches leave, players leave too. When Buzz leaves, the same thing will happen. I wonder how many folks then will scream he left the cupboard bare? I doubt any, because the double standards on this board are incredible.
Buzz is doing the best job he can right now....I commend him highly. But this nonsense about the cupboard being bare ignores the very REAL FACT that the cupboard wasn't bare, rather the players didn't want to play for the new coach and they left....THAT'S when the cupboard became "bare". AFTER.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 12:00:16 AM
Correct, he gifted us with them as ROLE players, not starters. If I recall correctly, Acker was off the team but Buzz begged him back....damn good thing he did.
And yes, we all want to win a NCAA championship, but the reality is that you have to walk before you run. Quality guards is where it all starts.
And you know that Buzz "begged" Acker back how? You were there? Can't resist any opportunity for a shot.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 12:06:26 AM
And you know that Buzz "begged" Acker back how? You were there? Can't resist any opportunity for a shot.
How is that a shot....Jesus, Anthony, thank God you didn't get into Psychology. You're really bad at it. Piss poor in fact.
I'm just glad Buzz did ask him back and let him back on the team, because we would be getting worked right now if he didn't. He has a ton of flaws due to his size, but we would be in a lot worse shape without him if he wasn't around.
I
COMMEND HIM (BUZZ) FOR ALLOWING HIM BACK ON THE TEAM. It worked out well for both sides....MU has a point guard and Mo is able to finish his career.
Hey Lenny, I'll say it again....it's ok to be a fan of TC's reign and Buzz's. I know I am, not sure why you aren't capable of it. Not everyone is out to get Buzz, despite what your psychological whims suggest.
Quote from: El Duderino on January 02, 2010, 11:40:09 PM
Yes that it common which lead to the end result of the cupboard being bare at both inside players and at PG, so Buzz was left with only spare parts at the PG position. From there Buzz did the best thing he could possibly do, he went out and landed a top 10 point guard recruit. Unfortunately Junior got hurt.
That's why it's baffling to me that some here are always complaining the Buzz plays Acker and Cubillian so much. What the hell do they want Buzz to do? They are the only point guards he has to work with. Unless Buzz can take up voodoo and get magical healing powers for Junior, no other point guard will be walking on the court until next year.
When in only one season a program loses three seniors like we lost, their head coach, and the new coach gets ravaged by season ending injuries, you'll get what we see this year. An undermanned roster where the coach has no choice except to play role player types many more minutes than he'd prefer.
The losses of course sting to me, but i'm proud of how the kids are competing and also i'm encouraged that Buzz is showing he can coach, he's not only a good recruiter.
I concur, I'm proud of them as well. They are a gutty team, playing hard, Buzz is scheming solid game plans (somehow, this will be construed as anti-Buzz by some here, how I'll never know but some a-hole will say it anyway).
I also agree that he has not much of a choice to play Cubillan and Acker together at times, especially when DJO is in such horrible foul trouble. My only complaint is EWill not playing a bit more, at least to spell someone from time to time for a few minutes.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 12:04:24 AM
That is 100% incorrect and you know it. Buzz flew down and met with TT and his family, well documented. Continuing to ignore the facts does not make your claim true, yet you continue to do it.
And this free agent nonsense....what are you talking about. He signed a LOI, there is no such thing as Free Agency in college. Buzz made a pitch to keep him, the player, his family and coach said no thanks. They then moved on. He became a "free agent" after MU released him from his LOI, which MU didn't have to do. Secondly, that release happened AFTER Buzz met with player, coach and family. Why these facts are so devoid for you is pretty incredible.
Simply put, if TC was still at MU then TT would be playing for MU...period. TC left, he didn't want to play for Buzz and MU anymore. I don't know why this very simple fact isn't clear as a bell for you.
The other SIMPLE fact is that when coaches leave, players leave too. When Buzz leaves, the same thing will happen. I wonder how many folks then will scream he left the cupboard bare? I doubt any, because the double standards on this board are incredible.
Buzz is doing the best job he can right now....I commend him highly. But this nonsense about the cupboard being bare ignores the very REAL FACT that the cupboard wasn't bare, rather the players didn't want to play for the new coach and they left....THAT'S when the cupboard became "bare". AFTER.
Free agency nonsense? What would you call a recruit released from his LOI when the coach leaves. Isn't he then free to select any school he chooses? Sounds like the definition of a free agent to me.
I guess TC's cupboard wasn't really bare when he arrived at IU either. Jordan Crawford (Xavier) and the dude who threw the plant at TC evidently wanted no part of Crean. Probably others, but I didn't follow the situation very closely.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 12:11:07 AM
How is that a shot....Jesus, Anthony, thank God you didn't get into Psychology. You're really bad at it. Piss poor in fact.
I'm just glad Buzz did ask him back and let him back on the team, because we would be getting worked right now if he didn't. He has a ton of flaws due to his size, but we would be in a lot worse shape without him if he wasn't around.
I COMMEND HIM (BUZZ) FOR ALLOWING HIM BACK ON THE TEAM. It worked out well for both sides....MU has a point guard and Mo is able to finish his career.
Hey Lenny, I'll say it again....it's ok to be a fan of TC's reign and Buzz's. I know I am, not sure why you aren't capable of it. Not everyone is out to get Buzz, despite what your psychological whims suggest.
So now "asked" and "allowed" carry the same connotation as "begged". Maybe you should worry less about psychology and a little more about simple English.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 12:04:24 AM
That is 100% incorrect and you know it. Buzz flew down and met with TT and his family, well documented. Continuing to ignore the facts does not make your claim true, yet you continue to do it.
And this free agent nonsense....what are you talking about. He signed a LOI, there is no such thing as Free Agency in college. Buzz made a pitch to keep him, the player, his family and coach said no thanks. They then moved on. He became a "free agent" after MU released him from his LOI, which MU didn't have to do.
How often do universities hold recruits to their LOI if the head coach is fired or leaves for another job? It was pretty much a given that after Crean bolted, Taylor would be let out of his LOI if he no longer wanted to attend Marquette. It's looks bad for a school to force a recruit to honor his LOI in situations like that against his desires and the new coach isn't going to want a recruit that he's forcing to stay at the university. So while recruits in these circumstances aren't technically a "free agent", any new coach knows that he has to re-recruit any incoming players or let them out of their LOI if they'd prefer to go elsewhere.
QuoteThe other SIMPLE fact is that when coaches leave, players leave too. When Buzz leaves, the same thing will happen. I wonder how many folks then will scream he left the cupboard bare? I doubt any, because the double standards on this board are incredible.
Well, it's often a challenge for any new coach when they come in, but not all situations are the same for what the new coach inherits. For some, the cupboard truly is bare and for others, not so much. When Buzz leaves, we won't know what exactly the new coach inherits until the situation actually happened. Crean left Buzz a talented team last year with three very good seniors, so Buzz was able to win a lot of games and make the big dance. Not all new coaches are fortunate to inherit a team like we were last year. That said, there wasn't all that much left once the big three graduated and it's a sizable factor in why the team is undermanned this year. Even if Crean has stayed, making the tournament this year would have been highly unlikely with Jerel, Wes, and Dominic gone given what was left.
Quote from: El Duderino on January 03, 2010, 12:53:17 AM
How often do universities hold recruits to their LOI if the head coach is fired or leaves for another job? It was pretty much a given that after Crean bolted, Taylor would be let out of his LOI if he no longer wanted to attend Marquette. It's looks bad for a school to force a recruit to honor his LOI in situations like that against his desires and the new coach isn't going to want a recruit that he's forcing to stay at the university. So while recruits in these circumstances aren't technically a "free agent", any new coach knows that he has to re-recruit any incoming players or let them out of their LOI if they'd prefer to go elsewhere.
Well, it's often a challenge for any new coach when they come in, but not all situations are the same for what the new coach inherits. For some, the cupboard truly is bare and for others, not so much. When Buzz leaves, we won't know what exactly the new coach inherits until the situation actually happened. Crean left Buzz a talented team last year with three very good seniors, so Buzz was able to win a lot of games and make the big dance. Not all new coaches are fortunate to inherit a team like we were last year. That said, there wasn't all that much left once the big three graduated and it's a sizable factor in why the team is undermanned this year. Even if Crean has stayed, making the tournament this year would have been highly unlikely with Jerel, Wes, and Dominic gone given what was left.
Agreed, not many hold them to their LOI. My point is that the timeline seems to be ignored. Buzz was given an opportunity to save that recruit, it didn't happen. Life goes on, but the decision was made AFTER that saving attempt was made.
That's also why I laugh my ass off about the cupboard being bare.....how many guys walk in off the street to take over a program with 3 of the top 10 scorers in the history of the program and a 4th that will likely make it there. MU would obviously be in a lot better shape right now if Junior and Otule were playing. Unfortunately they are not, and for some reason EWill isn't ready to play which adds to the depth problem.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2010, 10:21:18 PM
Like I said, it is what is. The same thing will happen when Buzz leaves, players will go elsewhere. My only point is that it's silly to say the cupboard was bare....it wasn't, they just chose not to play for MU and Buzz. That's a big difference in my mind.
To me, to say the cupboard is bare is an example of when Mike Deane left...that's having the cupboard bare. A few decent players but nothing to write home about and we WANTED players to transfer. Same when KO came in....we WANTED players to transfer for upgrades. When TC left, we DID NOT want players to transfer because they were talented players...thus, the cupboard not being bare just by definition.
What the hell are you talking about Chico? Once we got past last year the cupboard was bare for a number of reasons, virtually every one of them related to Tanned Tommy's decison to leave MU. Defections happened because he turned his back on MU - there is a causal relationship at play here. I put the blame for the defections squarely on Crean for his act of selfishness. He took care of himself in a gutless manner with zero regard for any member of the MU community.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 12:13:46 AM
I concur, I'm proud of them as well. They are a gutty team, playing hard, Buzz is scheming solid game plans (somehow, this will be construed as anti-Buzz by some here, how I'll never know but some a-hole will say it anyway).
I also agree that he has not much of a choice to play Cubillan and Acker together at times, especially when DJO is in such horrible foul trouble. My only complaint is EWill not playing a bit more, at least to spell someone from time to time for a few minutes.
This post is not anti-Buzz, at least in my humble opinion. As one of top a-holes on the board (on your list anyway) I find it fair and mostly accurate. Too bad you hold my opinion in such low esteem.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 12:58:28 AM
Agreed, not many hold them to their LOI. My point is that the timeline seems to be ignored. Buzz was given an opportunity to save that recruit, it didn't happen. Life goes on, but the decision was made AFTER that saving attempt was made.
That's also why I laugh my ass off about the cupboard being bare.....how many guys walk in off the street to take over a program with 3 of the top 10 scorers in the history of the program and a 4th that will likely make it there. MU would obviously be in a lot better shape right now if Junior and Otule were playing. Unfortunately they are not, and for some reason EWill isn't ready to play which adds to the depth problem.
While i don't think Crean left much behind the class of Jerel, Wes, and Dominic so thus it's hurting the team this year, to be fair to Crean, those three players seemed to have helped Buzz land a few of his recruits.
If i remember correctly, Vander Blue and a few others mentioned liking the style of play by Marquette. For Buzz being able to inherit those three seniors, it allowed him to win right away while also playing an appealing style of ball for recruits on watch on TV. It gave Buzz some credibility that he could win so long as he had some talent.
Many coaches have to take over teams that stink and the head coach was canned. Buzz does strike me as a flat out good recruiter regardless, but i'm sure it helped to go out there and sell himself along with Marquette after the team had a good season last year.
I don't strongly dislike Crean as many here seem to, even if i'm bothered by how he left and i hold it against him to a degree. As a head coach though, one thing that did frustrate me was that even with the success Crean had, i think his reputation nationally as a very good recruiter was overrated. He was a solid recruiter, that's it. I think Buzz has the potential to be quite a bit better there, but time will tell.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 12:30:28 AM
So now "asked" and "allowed" carry the same connotation as "begged". Maybe you should worry less about psychology and a little more about simple English.
This from the guy that didn't understand that alma mater refers to more than your undergraduate institution. ;D
And you may want to look up the word beg and what the definition is there and tell me how I'm wrong.
Thanks
Here's a crumb trail for you..... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/begged
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 12:22:58 AM
Free agency nonsense? What would you call a recruit released from his LOI when the coach leaves. Isn't he then free to select any school he chooses? Sounds like the definition of a free agent to me.
I guess TC's cupboard wasn't really bare when he arrived at IU either. Jordan Crawford (Xavier) and the dude who threw the plant at TC evidently wanted no part of Crean. Probably others, but I didn't follow the situation very closely.
That's correct....once he is RELEASED. But he WASN'T released until AFTER Buzz met with him, his coach and his family. Why are time lines so hard for you?
1) Crean Leaves
2) TT still under LOI with Marquette
3) Buzz meets TT, TT's coach, TT's family
4) TT, after consideration of said meeting in #3, decides he doesn't want to play for Buzz at MU
5) MU releases TT from LOI
You go from 1 to 5 and skip 2, 3, and 4 for some reason.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:59:08 AM
That's correct....once he is RELEASED. But he WASN'T released until AFTER Buzz met with him, his coach and his family. Why are time lines so hard for you?
1) Crean Leaves
2) TT still under LOI with Marquette
3) Buzz meets TT, TT's coach, TT's family
4) TT, after consideration of said meeting in #3, decides he doesn't want to play for Buzz at MU
5) MU releases TT from LOI
You go from 1 to 5 and skip 2, 3, and 4 for some reason.
I don't quite understand why you equate a LOI with an asset. It's like giving a girl a friendship ring when you go overseas to work. Chances are that relationship will last until you board the plane. Taylor committed to Crean, not to Marquette.
When a coach leaves all he leaves behind is his roster. Taylor was never
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:59:08 AM
That's correct....once he is RELEASED. But he WASN'T released until AFTER Buzz met with him, his coach and his family. Why are time lines so hard for you?
1) Crean Leaves
2) TT still under LOI with Marquette
3) Buzz meets TT, TT's coach, TT's family
4) TT, after consideration of said meeting in #3, decides he doesn't want to play for Buzz at MU
5) MU releases TT from LOI
You go from 1 to 5 and skip 2, 3, and 4 for some reason.
This is ridiculous. Once #1 happened the only possible outcome was #5. In your mind, how is the blame for that NOT placed squarely on Crean?
With respect to my way earlier bench comment, why not play Williams or Mbao? If 5 minutes of playing time for Williams or Mbao means a ten point loss to Villanova, it is still a loss.
Rationally speaking, if you are going to lose, despite playing your best 7 men, why not build toward next season and get the others some playing time? If it is a rebuilding year, then why not coach like it is a rebuilding year?
Quote from: warriorfred on January 03, 2010, 05:53:02 AM
With respect to my way earlier bench comment, why not play Williams or Mbao? If 5 minutes of playing time for Williams or Mbao means a ten point loss to Villanova, it is still a loss.
Rationally speaking, if you are going to lose, despite playing your best 7 men, why not build toward next season and get the others some playing time? If it is a rebuilding year, then why not coach like it is a rebuilding year?
Because you play the games to win. Five minutes of playing time isn't going to make them better players.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 03, 2010, 07:43:49 AM
Because you play the games to win. Five minutes of playing time isn't going to make them better players.
exactly, you learn in PRACTICE.
Just as you learn in class and studying at the library, not while you take the test.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2010, 10:21:18 PM
Like I said, it is what is. The same thing will happen when Buzz leaves, players will go elsewhere. My only point is that it's silly to say the cupboard was bare....it wasn't, they just chose not to play for MU and Buzz. That's a big difference in my mind.
To me, to say the cupboard is bare is an example of when Mike Deane left...that's having the cupboard bare. A few decent players but nothing to write home about and we WANTED players to transfer. Same when KO came in....we WANTED players to transfer for upgrades. When TC left, we DID NOT want players to transfer because they were talented players...thus, the cupboard not being bare just by definition.
I've talked to a former player of Kevin's who was in the room when KO told the team he was going to Tennessee. His message was clear..."I'm going to TN and you're not. You're playing for MU and I'm not"
(Well actually he threw in a few "F'n-ings")
If TC manned up and told kids to honor their scholarship we certainly are deeper. Why TC couldn't do that is beyond me.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2010, 10:27:35 PM
I'd argue we're doing more than hanging with them, we are doing enough to win the games but fall short at crunch time.
Well, obviously we aren't doing enough to win the games, or we would be winning them. MU will be a tough out. Not a good team, but a tough out.
TT always wanted to play for Kansas. It was his dream school. He only signed with MU, because Kansas did not offer him a scholarship. Kansas wins national championship, Kansas players turn pro creating open scholarships and then Crean leaves giving TT a chance to demand his release. Buzz did not lose him because of Buzz, TT never gave him the chance once his dream became a reality.
Besides that we are going to lose this year not because of a lack of talent, but because we do not have the necessary experience to win games at the end. Look at Georgetwon last year or Uconn three years ago. They had talent, but fared poorly in Big East because of their lack of experience. That is why I have always said we were not going to do as good as many of you were predicting. Because to win 11 or 12 games meant this team had to win almost all of the close games and those games usually are won by the battle tested teams, especially the ones that played in the final four a year ago.
Why don't we have the necessary experience to win at the end of games?***
***-Because someone left the cupboard bare.
QuoteBecause you play the games to win. Five minutes of playing time isn't going to make them better players.
Two responses:
1. The strategy of playing the game to win with 6 -7 players has not produced many victories. Maybe it's time to reevaluate that approach.
2. Five minutes of playing time holds no value; are you serious? There is nothing like game time. You can talk about practice all you want, and it is important, but a game situation is so much different. Ask yourself, if the game had gone into overtime, and with MU's foul trouble, would you feel better if Williams and Mbao had some game experience if they were forced to play? This isn't the movie Hoosiers, and Strapp is not going to come in the game and suddenly light up Villanova for 20.
There is no substitute for the real thing, game time. Playing 7 has not got MU very far, and it will not carry them very far the rest of the season.
With respect to TT...Buzz was the lead recruiter and really worked him and sold him during his visit (haunted hoops I believe) and eventually got a commitment.
Many believe that even if TC would have stayed, TT would have figured out a way to get to Kansas. When crean left, it gave him the out he needed.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 03, 2010, 05:41:24 AM
This is ridiculous. Once #1 happened the only possible outcome was #5. In your mind, how is the blame for that NOT placed squarely on Crean?
Really, so using that logic then all players that sign a LOI always leave when a new coach comes in. Interesting, I wonder why this is so wrong and so many times the player decides to honor the commitment TO THE UNIVERSITY. Hmmmmm
I also wonder why all that time was wasted to have Buzz go down there, meet with the player, his family and coach. I mean, if it was a done deal, why bother. With Nick Williams, we flat our released him no questions, no attempts, nothing....we didn't do that with TT. Hmmmmmmm
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 03, 2010, 10:09:58 AM
Why don't we have the necessary experience to win at the end of games?***
***-Because someone left the cupboard bare.
So when they win, Buzz is the man. When they lose, it's because the former coach didn't leave enough players?
Seems too convenient.
I don't blame Buzz for this loss, but I don't think we can absolve him of everything that happens and just blame it on Crean.
If anything, blame it on injuries and bad luck.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 03, 2010, 10:09:58 AM
Why don't we have the necessary experience to win at the end of games?***
***-Because someone left the cupboard bare.
Exactly....except...wait....he left MU Seniors who finished as the #1 scorer in MU history (also the all time leader in steals), the #3 scorer in MU history (also #2 in assists), the #8 scorer in MU history (who now starts for a NBA team) and a first team All Big East player with 2 years left and soon to be a top 10 scorer in MU history.
Talk about a bare cupboard, it was a regular Mother Hubbard situation.
(http://www.seligorscastle.zoomshare.com/files/My_Colouring_Book/old_mother_hubbard_postcard.jpg)
Gentlemen, Buzz could not have walked into a better situation in his life with what was left for him in his first year. Unfortunately, injuries have killed this team but stop with the nonsense. Players were here, they left because they didn't want to play for MU under Buzz. He then recruited his own players who, unfortunately, have been injured.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 03, 2010, 10:30:20 AM
So when they win, Buzz is the man. When they lose, it's because the former coach didn't leave enough players?
Seems too convenient.
I don't blame Buzz for this loss, but I don't think we can absolve him of everything that happens and just blame it on Crean.
If anything, blame it on injuries and bad luck.
EXACTLY!!!!! Injuries, bad luck and players leaving. It's funny, last year he was the man even though he walked into the greatest situation known to any coach in the last 20 years. This year, it's all TC's fault. Funny double standards at work again.
Buzz is doing a fine job, he's short handed, things will improve but the excuses \ double standards here are never ending. They are who we thought they were. Actually, I'd argue they are better than we thought they were which is why it's so frustrating to see them beat teams for 38 or 39 minutes and come up short. The talent is there to win these games, the talent doesn't disappear for 60 seconds.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 03, 2010, 10:30:20 AM
So when they win, Buzz is the man. When they lose, it's because the former coach didn't leave enough players?
Seems too convenient.
I don't blame Buzz for this loss, but I don't think we can absolve him of everything that happens and just blame it on Crean.
If anything, blame it on injuries and bad luck.
Not exactly. The statement was made previously, of which I agree, that we don't have the experienced players to win close games at the end. Hard to argue that point, isn't it. Buzz has been on the job about 460 days. The previous coach left him with exactly 3 seniors this year. Two of those guys were never starters. And, it can be intelligently argued do not possess the talent necessary to compete effectively in the BE. How many Juniors and Sophomores did Tommy leave behind for Buzz to build with? Why do you think Williams has been trying to even out the classes?
Buzz is bringing in good talent, but they're inexperienced. It takes time. Junior college ball doesn't subsitute for Big East experience. If you're going to pee with the big boys, get 2 hands around the old gregory and go for it. Crean's a one-handed 3rd grader pisser.
Quote from: warriorfred on January 03, 2010, 10:21:03 AM
Two responses:
1. The strategy of playing the game to win with 6 -7 players has not produced many victories. Maybe it's time to reevaluate that approach.
2. Five minutes of playing time holds no value; are you serious? There is nothing like game time. You can talk about practice all you want, and it is important, but a game situation is so much different. Ask yourself, if the game had gone into overtime, and with MU's foul trouble, would you feel better if Williams and Mbao had some game experience if they were forced to play? This isn't the movie Hoosiers, and Strapp is not going to come in the game and suddenly light up Villanova for 20.
There is no substitute for the real thing, game time. Playing 7 has not got MU very far, and it will not carry them very far the rest of the season.
We were picked 12th in the BE this year. We just lost to two of the top 3 teams in the BE by a COMBINED 3 points... one game on the road.
REDUCE YOUR EXPECTATIONS.
It isn't fair to go into 'full rebuild' mode to Lazar. You don't take years off when you have a first team all BE player on your team. You do what is right, you go out and win. Williams and Mbao won't just "figure it out" defensively during a game. I'm sorry if you think that, but they won't. They will learn 95% of what they learn in practice... where they spend 95% of their time.
I am so tired of this 'there is no substitute for game time' garbage. It is a stupid bullet point that you hear announcers bring up.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 03, 2010, 11:02:31 AM
We were picked 12th in the BE this year. We just lost to two of the top 3 teams in the BE by a COMBINED 3 points... one game on the road.
REDUCE YOUR EXPECTATIONS.
It isn't fair to go into 'full rebuild' mode to Lazar. You don't take years off when you have a first team all BE player on your team. You do what is right, you go out and win. Williams and Mbao won't just "figure it out" defensively during a game. I'm sorry if you think that, but they won't. They will learn 95% of what they learn in practice... where they spend 95% of their time.
I am so tired of this 'there is no substitute for game time' garbage. It is a stupid bullet point that you hear announcers bring up.
I agree with you until your last statement.....most coaches will tell you that you simply cannot substitute game time experience with practice time. I think you're off base on that one.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:59:08 AM
That's correct....once he is RELEASED. But he WASN'T released until AFTER Buzz met with him, his coach and his family. Why are time lines so hard for you?
1) Crean Leaves
2) TT still under LOI with Marquette
3) Buzz meets TT, TT's coach, TT's family
4) TT, after consideration of said meeting in #3, decides he doesn't want to play for Buzz at MU
5) MU releases TT from LOI
You go from 1 to 5 and skip 2, 3, and 4 for some reason.
Real "timeline":
1)Crean leaves
2)Hurley and Taylor do backflips since this means Tyshawn can fufill his dream to play for Kansas. Taylor (through Hurley) immediately asks MU for a release.
3)In a public relation move to soften Hurley's harsh statements about Marquette, Hurley, Taylor and his family grant Buzz a "meeting".
4)Mission accomplished, MU releases Taylor and he signs with Kansas.
Buzz participated in the charade on the one in a million chance that Taylor was really still "open", but that ship had already sailed.
Quote from: The Lens on January 03, 2010, 09:17:36 AM
I've talked to a former player of Kevin's who was in the room when KO told the team he was going to Tennessee. His message was clear..."I'm going to TN and you're not. You're playing for MU and I'm not"
(Well actually he threw in a few "F'n-ings")
If TC manned up and told kids to honor their scholarship we certainly are deeper. Why TC couldn't do that is beyond me.
What a great guy...was he wearing his Tennessee sweatshirt at the time, wiping his nose on his MU contract and getting serviced in the room by.....? KO....the model of loyalty everywhere he's been.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 11:40:16 AM
Real "timeline":
1)Crean leaves
2)Hurley and Taylor do backflips since this means Tyshawn can fufill his dream to play for Kansas. Taylor (through Hurley) immediately asks MU for a release.
3)In a public relation move to soften Hurley's harsh statements about Marquette, Hurley, Taylor and his family grant Buzz a "meeting".
4)Mission accomplished, MU releases Taylor and he signs with Kansas.
Buzz participated in the charade on the one in a million chance that Taylor was really still "open", but that ship had already sailed.
PR move....why, was Hurley's program in jeopardy of taking some kind of hit. LOL. I'll bet they are hurting now.
I'll ask again because you have yet to answer it. If TC didn't leave, TT plays for Crean at MU...correct?
Secondly, what was the reason that Hurley gave for him not wanting TT to play for Buzz. Would you like another crumb trail? I'll help you....he knew nothing of Buzz...Buzz had no track record and he didn't want his star player to play for someone he knew nothing about. Yet despite all this, Buzz went through the "charade" as well.
Interesting...sounds like a dumb and dumber skit
http://www.youtube.com/v/KX5jNnDMfxA
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 12:09:07 PM
I'll ask again because you have yet to answer it. If TC didn't leave, TT plays for Crean at MU...correct?
Impossible to say for sure....
HOWEVER...I will say this again, many thought that TT would have found a way to get to Kansas, even if Crean would've stayed.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 03, 2010, 10:43:54 AM
Not exactly. The statement was made previously, of which I agree, that we don't have the experienced players to win close games at the end. Hard to argue that point, isn't it. Buzz has been on the job about 460 days. The previous coach left him with exactly 3 seniors this year. Two of those guys were never starters. And, it can be intelligently argued do not possess the talent necessary to compete effectively in the BE. How many Juniors and Sophomores did Tommy leave behind for Buzz to build with? Why do you think Williams has been trying to even out the classes?
Buzz is bringing in good talent, but they're inexperienced. It takes time. Junior college ball doesn't subsitute for Big East experience. If you're going to pee with the big boys, get 2 hands around the old gregory and go for it. Crean's a one-handed 3rd grader pisser.
OK, let's just clear the air about "what was left".
Mbakwe
Taylor
Christopherson
Williams
They all left after Buzz became coach. Now, I don't think that it's Buzz's fault that they left.
I DON'T BLAME BUZZ FOR THESE PLAYERS LEAVING. But, I think the theory that "Crean left the cabinet empty" is just a convenient shot for you guys to take.
Crean had players on campus and players coming in that wanted to play for him. When he left, they left. I don't think that's his fault. It's just a fact of life.
If Buzz Williams left tomorrow, some of his players might leave. It's just a fact of life.
Now, as far as Buzz having an inexperienced roster and not having players that can close out games, I agree with you. This is clearly a rebuilding season, and MU is going to take some hard knocks. Nothing Buzz can really do about that.
BUT, I think it's a double standard when I see people giving Buzz credit for "releasing Wes Matthews" in his 1 season as head coach, and then read that Buzz doesn't deserve any criticism in his second season.
Buzz can have a huge impact on Wes in
1 season (and get credit for it), but absolutely can have no impact on the players this season? (and can receive no criticism?)
It's just too convenient.
I like Buzz. I'm optimistic for the future. But, some of you guys are making excuses before anybody even criticizes.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on January 03, 2010, 12:16:50 PM
Impossible to say for sure....
HOWEVER...I will say this again, many thought that TT would have found a way to get to Kansas, even if Crean would've stayed.
I'd love to hear how. The only way would be to transfer and sit out a year. Hurley provided Crean several players in the past, they had a strong relationship. I don't think that would have happened.
Chicos...I really don't care what you choose to believe.
I'm telling you, that many felt that TT wouldve gotten to Kansas eventually...be it through transfering or getting released from his LOI.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on January 03, 2010, 12:38:40 PM
Chicos...I really don't care what you choose to believe.
I'm telling you, that many felt that TT wouldve gotten to Kansas eventually...be it through transfering or getting released from his LOI.
He would have had to transfer, no coach in their right mind is going to let a kid out of a LOI when there hasn't been a coaching change. That allows the inmates to run the asylum and no coach is going to do that. Then the question becomes, would KU wait another year for the kid which begs another question. Perhaps.
I didn't say I didn't believe you, but the only way I see that as a possibility would be via a transfer, not with a simple release.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 12:30:38 PM
I'd love to hear how. The only way would be to transfer and sit out a year. Hurley provided Crean several players in the past, they had a strong relationship. I don't think that would have happened.
Hurley had never provided Crean any players, you are confusing Bob Hurley with his son Danny. TT would have been the first St. Anthony's player at MU since Mandy Johnson.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 12:30:38 PM
I'd love to hear how. The only way would be to transfer and sit out a year. Hurley provided Crean several players in the past, they had a strong relationship. I don't think that would have happened.
Nope...TT was the only TC commit that played for Bob Hurley at St. Anthonys
Cubi and Burke played for Dan Hurley at St. Benedicts.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:56:03 AM
This from the guy that didn't understand that alma mater refers to more than your undergraduate institution. ;D
And you may want to look up the word beg and what the definition is there and tell me how I'm wrong.
Thanks
Here's a crumb trail for you..... http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/begged
You're right Chico. In your world (and only in your world) "asking" someone or "allowing" someone are synonymous with "begging" someone. I'd love to get some video of you "begging" one of your children to pass the potatoes. Must have been pretty funny watching you "begging" women to go out with you back in the day. I'm sure your parents always taught you to "beg politely". Your knees must constantly ache.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 12:53:51 PM
You're right Chico. In your world (and only in your world) "asking" someone or "allowing" someone are synonymous with "begging" someone. I'd love to get some video of you "begging" one of your children to pass the potatoes. Must have been pretty funny watching you "begging" women to go out with you back in the day. I'm sure your parents always taught you to "beg politely". Your knees must constantly ache.
You obviously didn't read the definition or don't understand that words have meanings, often many of them. You seem narrowly focused, like you were with "alma mater". Beg can mean getting on your knees and throwing yourself on the floor hoping they do something or it can have quite a different meaning that you obviously didn't understand. I'm glad you have learned that "beg" means more than just implore, which is obviously the meaning you have tied to the word.
Quote from: bma725 on January 03, 2010, 12:51:57 PM
Hurley had never provided Crean any players, you are confusing Bob Hurley with his son Danny. TT would have been the first St. Anthony's player at MU since Mandy Johnson.
I stand corrected....thank you
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:02:08 PM
You obviously didn't read the definition or don't understand that words have meanings, often many of them.
except you do this back pedal on this kind of stuff all the time when it best fits your argument.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 03, 2010, 01:03:02 PM
except you do this back pedal kind of stuff all the time when it best fits your argument.
Much like your
global warming climate change arguments?
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 03, 2010, 12:18:21 PM
OK, let's just clear the air about "what was left".
Mbakwe
Taylor
Christopherson
Williams
They all left after Buzz became coach. Now, I don't think that it's Buzz's fault that they left. I DON'T BLAME BUZZ FOR THESE PLAYERS LEAVING. But, I think the theory that "Crean left the cabinet empty" is just a convenient shot for you guys to take.
Crean had players on campus and players coming in that wanted to play for him. When he left, they left. I don't think that's his fault. It's just a fact of life.
If Buzz Williams left tomorrow, some of his players might leave. It's just a fact of life.
Now, as far as Buzz having an inexperienced roster and not having players that can close out games, I agree with you. This is clearly a rebuilding season, and MU is going to take some hard knocks. Nothing Buzz can really do about that.
BUT, I think it's a double standard when I see people giving Buzz credit for "releasing Wes Matthews" in his 1 season as head coach, and then read that Buzz doesn't deserve any criticism in his second season.
Buzz can have a huge impact on Wes in 1 season (and get credit for it), but absolutely can have no impact on the players this season? (and can receive no criticism?)
It's just too convenient.
I like Buzz. I'm optimistic for the future. But, some of you guys are making excuses before anybody even criticizes.
Mbakwe had decided to tranfer BEFORE Crean quit. Buzz talked him out of it but only temporarily. Crean certainly didn't leave Williams behind - he took him with him (if only for a year). Taylor got a "get out of jail free" card when Crean bolted, giving him the opportunity to play at his dream school(Kansas). You are right about Chritopherson, but I"d hardly consider him the stuff of a "full cupboard".
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:06:16 PM
Much like your global warming climate change arguments?
except that I never backpedaled or debated the meaning of a word that everyone knows.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 03, 2010, 01:17:31 PM
except that I never backpedaled or debated the meaning of a word that everyone knows.
Obviously you don't know the meaning of the word since the definitions are clear....you guys are just tied to one of the meanings. I'm sorry that you didn't score that well in the verbal part of the SAT. ;)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:02:08 PM
You obviously didn't read the definition or don't understand that words have meanings, often many of them. You seem narrowly focused, like you were with "alma mater". Beg can mean getting on your knees and throwing yourself on the floor hoping they do something or it can have quite a different meaning that you obviously didn't understand. I'm glad you have learned that "beg" means more than just implore, which is obviously the meaning you have tied to the word.
So in your world beg = ask, at least when it covers your ass but not in any of the examples I cited. Convenient and phony. Business as usual.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:23:42 PM
Obviously you don't know the meaning of the word since the definitions are clear....you guys are just tied to one of the meanings. I'm sorry that you didn't score that well in the verbal part of the SAT. ;)
context Chicos. Definitions, and their applications are derived from context.
Just because you find a definition in the dictionary, does not make it applicable to the situation you are using.
For example: If I called you gay, I would not expect you to think that I meant you were happy and playful. ;)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:23:42 PM
Obviously you don't know the meaning of the word since the definitions are clear....you guys are just tied to one of the meanings. I'm sorry that you didn't score that well in the verbal part of the SAT. ;)
Keep digging. Can you hear people speaking Chinese yet?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 03, 2010, 01:25:24 PM
context Chicos. Definitions, and their applications are derived from context.
Just because you find a definition in the dictionary, does not make it applicable to the situation you are using.
For example: If I called you gay, I would not expect you to think that I meant you were happy and playful. ;)
I am gay
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 01:32:00 PM
Keep digging. Can you hear people speaking Chinese yet?
I speak some Japanese, not Chinese....but I'll try to keep an ear out.
Maybe I'll get a degree at UCLA in Chinese....can I call that an Alma Mater or do I have to go with only meanings of words you know? LOL
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 01:12:40 PM
Mbakwe had decided to tranfer BEFORE Crean quit. Buzz talked him out of it but only temporarily. Crean certainly didn't leave Williams behind - he took him with him (if only for a year). Taylor got a "get out of jail free" card when Crean bolted, giving him the opportunity to play at his dream school(Kansas). You are right about Chritopherson, but I"d hardly consider him the stuff of a "full cupboard".
Fact: Several players transferred / ask for a release from their LOI after TC left.
Whose fault is that?
Well, it's
not Buzz Williams' fault as he just has to play the hand he was dealt.
However, you guys keep pinning all of this on Crean. My point is that if Crean stayed, he would have had a lot of talent coming in. They left because he left. Happens all of the time in college sports.
At this point, several guys around here still talk about the "ghost of TC" and how he's still somehow screwing MU.
Buzz Williams is the coach of MU, win or lose. When he wins, he will get the credit (not TC) and when he loses, he should receive the criticism (not TC).
That's fair, right?
I bet if MU had won on Saturday there wouldn't be any posts around here thanking TC for the big win. But, when MU loses, it's because of TC.
Just seems to convenient.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 01:47:10 PM
I speak some Japanese, not Chinese....but I'll try to keep an ear out.
Maybe I'll get a degree at UCLA in Chinese....can I call that an Alma Mater or do I have to go with only meanings of words you know? LOL
Based on the definition you posted you'll have to earn a doctorate rather than an "advanced degree" like the ones you have from IU and Kansas. But I'd give anything for a photo in your freshman beanie.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 03, 2010, 01:47:32 PM
Fact: Several players transferred / ask for a release from their LOI after TC left.
Whose fault is that?
Well, it's not Buzz Williams' fault as he just has to play the hand he was dealt.
However, you guys keep pinning all of this on Crean. My point is that if Crean stayed, he would have had a lot of talent coming in. They left because he left. Happens all of the time in college sports.
At this point, several guys around here still talk about the "ghost of TC" and how he's still somehow screwing MU.
Buzz Williams is the coach of MU, win or lose. When he wins, he will get the credit (not TC) and when he loses, he should receive the criticism (not TC).
That's fair, right?
I bet if MU had won on Saturday there wouldn't be any posts around here thanking TC for the big win. But, when MU loses, it's because of TC.
Just seems to convenient.
Don't you realize the "ghost of TC" will be around forever, that is until it's gone (which is determined by the results that fit their argument). That's how it works in some minds around here.
Some people are entirely incapable of appreciating what both coaches did (or are doing)....why, I have no idea but it is clear they are incapable of it. Sad.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 02:01:57 PM
Based on the definition you posted you'll have to earn a doctorate rather than an "advanced degree" like the ones you have from IU and Kansas. But I'd give anything for a photo in your freshman beanie.
Here's the beanie picture I could find
(http://www3.images.coolspotters.com/photos/98054/eccc17B513E98EcF__profile.jpg)
I also found one of you at the computer
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/11/2009/12/500x_basement.jpg)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 02:05:25 PM
Don't you realize the "ghost of TC" will be around forever, that is until it's gone (which is determined by the results that fit their argument). That's how it works in some minds around here.
Some people are entirely incapable of appreciating what both coaches did (or are doing)....why, I have no idea but it is clear they are incapable of it. Sad.
The "ghost of TC" will be gone at MU in a couple of years. Same for the "ghost of KS" at Indiana.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 02:21:32 PM
The "ghost of TC" will be gone at MU in a couple of years. Same for the "ghost of KS" at Indiana.
Is the ghost of TC going to make appearances after wins, or just after losses?
Oh, and I couldn't care less about whatever is going on at IU. I'm an MU fan, and this is an MU board.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 02:21:32 PM
The "ghost of TC" will be gone at MU in a couple of years. Same for the "ghost of KS" at Indiana.
The ghost of KS looks like the grim reaper...the ghost of TC looks like Casper.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 03, 2010, 02:33:43 PM
Is the ghost of TC going to make appearances after wins, or just after losses?
Oh, and I couldn't care less about whatever is going on at IU. I'm an MU fan, and this is an MU board.
The ghost of TC appears on this board on a daily basis - win, lose or draw. Since the post you refer to is a reply to a Chicos post (a proud Indiana alum don't you know) I couldn't care less what you think.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 02:46:56 PM
The ghost of TC appears on this board on a daily basis - win, lose or draw. Since the post you refer to is a reply to a Chicos post (a proud Indiana alum don't you know) I couldn't care less what you think.
That's fine. I'll leave the IU stuff to you and Chicos.
I'm just trying to be clear that it seems like Crean's ghost only shows up when things go wrong. Nobody is going to bring up Crean when things go right.
Again, I really like Buzz, and I'm optimistic for the future, but it just seems like nothing can be his fault. It will always be Crean's.
This is the Buzz Williams era!
YES YES YES.... I love this team!!! If Buzz can keep this team in a positive mindset I like what he is doing with this ragtag fugitive force of a team!!! I think we might just have some fun before this year is over. Buzz is a strange communicator at times but I think he is connecting with these kids. I have almost enjoyed these painful losses because I anticipated a year of disasterous losses. GO BUZZ! :)
Quote from: warthog-driver on January 03, 2010, 01:18:45 AM
What the hell are you talking about Chico? Once we got past last year the cupboard was bare for a number of reasons, virtually every one of them related to Tanned Tommy's decison to leave MU. Defections happened because he turned his back on MU - there is a causal relationship at play here. I put the blame for the defections squarely on Crean for his act of selfishness. He took care of himself in a gutless manner with zero regard for any member of the MU community.
So your argument is that because Tom Crean left MU, he should be blamed for our failures two years later. By this logic, TC would have to have stayed at MU forever because leaving would screw us over and make us bad, which he is not allowed to do.
As much as we hate to admit it, IU is a better job than Marquette. Just is. He was going to make more money, run a more prestigious program, and get a better crack at top recruits. It's also one more stepping stone to his dream job (MSU).
You cannot blame Tom Crean for leaving. You can dislike the way he leaves, but saying its his fault we lose because he left is like saying it's Buzz's fault that New Orleans U loses because he left for MU.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 02:46:56 PM
The ghost of TC appears on this board on a daily basis - win, lose or draw. Since the post you refer to is a reply to a Chicos post (a proud Indiana alum don't you know) I couldn't care less what you think.
The ghost appears because someone else brings it up here every damn day. Very very rarely will you see me bring him up first in any thread, almost always it's someone else that just can't help themselves from bringing it up every friggin time.
This thread is just example 10,000 of what I'm talking about.
And you can't help yourself to constantly egg them on by instantly jumping to Crean's defense.
Quote from: MilWarrior on January 03, 2010, 05:19:04 PM
And you can't help yourself to constantly egg them on by instantly jumping to Crean's defense.
I can't speak for Chico's, but I can tell you that I'm not defending Tom Crean.
I'm simply pointing out that he isn't the source of all of MU's problems/losses like everybody likes to pretend.
Buzz isn't the responsible for every UNO loss this season.
Crean isn't responsible for every MU loss this season.
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 03, 2010, 05:26:49 PM
I can't speak for Chico's, but I can tell you that I'm not defending Tom Crean.
I'm simply pointing out that he isn't the source of all of MU's problems/losses like everybody likes to pretend.
Buzz isn't the responsible for every UNO loss this season.
Crean isn't responsible for every MU loss this season.
I couldn't care less about whatever is going on at UNO. I'm an MU fan, and this is an MU board.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 03, 2010, 05:37:32 PM
I couldn't care less about whatever is going on at UNO. I'm an MU fan, and this is an MU board.
Oh come on, Lennys.
Are you just bored and just trying to start an argument?
Why the pissy responses?
I could just respond with "I wasn't replying to you", (like you did to me earlier) but that would just start a new argument.
Can't we all just talk/post without it turning bitchy?
Quote from: MilWarrior on January 03, 2010, 05:19:04 PM
And you can't help yourself to constantly egg them on by instantly jumping to Crean's defense.
Too funny. I'm egging them on when 99% of the time someone else starts it? I guess that's a new form of egging on. Classic. But yeah, I will inject facts into the discussion when facts are not there. If that's a problem, too bad.
Some of us are capable of respecting what Crean did and what Buzz is doing, I'm sorry you and others are incapable of that.
If you don't want to talk about Crean, then stop bringing him up in every damn thread. It's really quite simple.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 03, 2010, 06:10:58 PM
Too funny. I'm egging them on when 99% of the time someone else starts it? I guess that's a new form of egging on. Classic. But yeah, I will inject facts into the discussion when facts are not there. If that's a problem, too bad.
Some of us are capable of respecting what Crean did and what Buzz is doing, I'm sorry you and others are incapable of that.
If you don't want to talk about Crean, then stop bringing him up in every damn thread. It's really quite simple.
What do you mean someone "starts it"? Are they personally attacking you and you need to respond? That's why I consider it egging them on. You don't need to respond every single time Crean is brought up. Too funny.