Anybody else go to the Al McGuire Center to go watch JP Tokoto vs. Arrowhead in the WI BBall Shootout??
ROY WILLIAMS of UNC was there scouting/persuading JP.
-The best play was a play that didn't even go in. Falls had 0.7 left in regulation to try and win the game and they inbounded from midcourt. They ran an alley0oop to JP and JP reversed the ball under the rim and the ball rimmed out. I looked over at Roy Williams and heis jaw dropped and he had a huge grin on his face. Clearly, this play would have been rediculous if it went in.
I did not see Buzz Williams, but if Buzz defeats all the odds and reels in JP, he should instantly go in the MARQ Hall of Fame.
I expect to see him at a big name bball school
Quote from: MrRivals150 on December 27, 2009, 10:56:21 PM
ROY WILLIAMS of UNC
did Roy have anyone thrown out of the Al?
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 28, 2009, 12:24:56 AM
did Roy have anyone thrown out of the Al?
Nobody was thrown out, but cause Roy was in attendance there were no Presbyterian fans allowed into the Al.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 28, 2009, 12:39:13 AM
Nobody was thrown out, but cause Roy was in attendance there were no Presbyterian fans allowed into the Al.
How about Lutherans?
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 28, 2009, 12:57:27 AM
How about Lutherans?
No, b/c Wisconsin Lutheran had plenty of fans there and that would be very hard.
Roy was actually signing auto's and taking pics during any breaks/at half.
Quote from: MrRivals150 on December 28, 2009, 01:02:30 AM
No, b/c Wisconsin Lutheran had plenty of fans there and that would be very hard.
Roy was actually signing auto's and taking pics during any breaks/at half.
OK, then I'll bet they said no Mormons
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 28, 2009, 01:18:55 AM
OK, then I'll bet they said no Mormons
Mormons were fine, as long as they didn't wear the magic underwear.
Why was Roy even let in to the Al? Isn't that like the QB of the football team coming over to your house to ask out the head cheerleader? Of course I can't explain why the cheerleader would be over at your house in the first place. That's where the analogy falls apart.
Quote from: MUEng92 on December 28, 2009, 08:55:06 AM
Why was Roy even let in to the Al? Isn't that like the QB of the football team coming over to your house to ask out the head cheerleader? Of course I can't explain why the cheerleader would be over at your house in the first place. That's where the analogy falls apart.
Probably because the Al was rented out.
Plus, do you really think MU should be that petty and not let Williams in? Cmon...that would be like Wisconsin not letting Buzz in the Kohl Center during WIAA tournament time.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 28, 2009, 09:40:57 AM
Plus, do you really think MU should be that petty and not let Williams in?
Quote from: marqptm on December 28, 2009, 09:24:13 AM
Probably because the Al was rented out.
Granted it's Monday morning and the comment about not letting Roy into the Al wasn't in teal, but even I, who went head-to-head with the Grinch this weekend and lost, realized that Eng92's comment was in jest.
By the way, I can think of two reasons why the cheerleader is at your house, but neither of them help with the analogy much (unless we're in Arkansas, or some compound along the Arizona border):
1) The cheerleader is your sister.
2) The cheerleader is your mom.
Quote from: MrRivals150 on December 27, 2009, 10:56:21 PM
I did not see Buzz Williams, but if Buzz defeats all the odds and reels in JP, he should instantly go in the MARQ Hall of Fame.
Recruiting doesn't get you in the HoF...winning does. Sometimes I think we mix the two up.
Quote from: Benny B on December 28, 2009, 09:57:22 AM
Granted it's Monday morning and the comment about not letting Roy into the Al wasn't in teal, but even I, who went head-to-head with the Grinch this weekend and lost, realized that Eng92's comment was in jest.
By the way, I can think of two reasons why the cheerleader is at your house, but neither of them help with the analogy much (unless we're in Arkansas, or some compound along the Arizona border):
1) The cheerleader is your sister.
2) The cheerleader is your mom.
I have no reason to believe it was in jest.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 28, 2009, 10:44:11 AM
Recruiting doesn't get you in the HoF...winning does. Sometimes I think we mix the two up.
if you feel that way sultan than you have much to learn...90% of winning is recruiitng. the best tactical coach we have maybe ever had at MU was one of our worst at the end of the day. Mike Deane was great with KO's players and got fired when he replaced them with his dogs. The beloved Crean was great with Wade but stunk with Deanes left overs and then was terrible again after DWade left, signing the big 3 and saved his job.
Sorry junior but it is all about recruiting. look at Kentucky this year versus last year.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 28, 2009, 10:44:11 AM
Recruiting doesn't get you in the HoF...winning does. Sometimes I think we mix the two up.
Recruiting is how you win in college basketball on the national stage.
Great schemes or systems can win you conference championships and games. Witness Bo Ryan or John Belein. Bobby Knight won lots of games with inferior personnel and a better system. The only way to win national championships is with great players. BK's championships and deep runs came when he had great players playing in his system. Any system has weaknesses. You have to have players who can make plays beyond the system when it breaks down. That's how Bo loses to Davidson with Curry. When Davidson shredded his system and built a lead, the Badgers still had to run the swing and play the contain m2m because they had no one to make plays beyond the system. Press? Zone? Gimmick D on Curry? What are those? Systems win games, players win championships.
In the same game 7'1" Mills from Arrowhead goes off for 19 points and 16 boards including a clutch rebound and basket to win.
And here we sit with a raw 7'2" guy who doesn't appear to know the basics of basketball and a 6'10" guy who will be coming off his second major injury in as many years.
Got to wonder why Mills didn't get a look from MU. So he's not a grayhound, he's still 7 foot and appearently knows how to play against decent competition.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on December 28, 2009, 12:22:52 PM
In the same game 7'1" Mills from Arrowhead goes off for 19 points and 16 boards including a clutch rebound and basket to win.
And here we sit with a raw 7'2" guy who doesn't appear to know the basics of basketball and a 6'10" guy who will be coming off his second major injury in as many years.
Got to wonder why Mills didn't get a look from MU. So he's not a grayhound, he's still 7 foot and appearently knows how to play against decent competition.
Mills did get a look. He was at camps and visited the school a few times.
There's a reason the kid is going to Boise State and not a single major or even high mid-major school offered him a scholarship.
Quote from: bma725 on December 28, 2009, 12:26:18 PM
Mills did get a look. He was at camps and visited the school a few times.
There's a reason the kid is going to Boise State and not a single major or even high mid-major school offered him a scholarship.
But why can just about every low major school get players 6'8" and above who at least know what sport they're playing and we can't? Boise State's current roster has four of them. Sure they're all juniors and seniors, but they're all contributing. The "worst" averages 4.7 points and 3.6 rebounds in 10 minutes. The way Mbao is going he might not score 4.7 points in his entire career. And Dwight Burke as a senior couldn't even get as many points and had about the same number of rebounds in twice as much time (comparing to BSU's FOURTH best big), and Burke didn't fare any better during cupcake season when we play competition that might be worse than what BSU plays against.
Bma I trust your evaluation.
Would a kid like Mills be significantly worse than Mbao or Otule?
Why?
Quote from: NotAnAlum on December 28, 2009, 12:52:34 PM
Bma I trust your evaluation.
Would a kid like Mills be significantly worse than Mbao or Otule?
Why?
Otule is already better than Mills and has been all along. People are forgetting the kind of numbers he put up in perhaps the toughest place to play high school basketball in the country. Suddenly Mills has a few good games and every forgets that he hasn't done much for 4 years play against smaller and inferior players and no high major in the country thought enough of him to offer him a scoharship or even sniff around more than minimally.
Mbao has the potential to be a lot better than Mills simply because of his athletic ability. Mills for the most part is what he is and doesn't have much room for growth other than adding weight. Mbao has better footspeed and better hand eye coordination, and he's been very good at picking things up quickly. That gives him far more room for growth than a guy like Mills.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on December 28, 2009, 12:22:52 PM
In the same game 7'1" Mills from Arrowhead goes off for 19 points and 16 boards including a clutch rebound and basket to win.
And here we sit with a raw 7'2" guy who doesn't appear to know the basics of basketball and a 6'10" guy who will be coming off his second major injury in as many years.
Got to wonder why Mills didn't get a look from MU. So he's not a grayhound, he's still 7 foot and appearently knows how to play against decent competition.
BEN MILLS' stat line is the biggest mistaken line ever. He played terrible and he looks very bad. He is uncoordinated and missed several close shots and never dunked. There's a reason why a guy that tall is heading that far Northwest to Idaho. This white boy did not impress me at all. I was very disapointed, I thought he would be better.
Quote from: chapman on December 28, 2009, 12:47:42 PM
But why can just about every low major school get players 6'8" and above who at least know what sport they're playing and we can't? Boise State's current roster has four of them. Sure they're all juniors and seniors, but they're all contributing. The "worst" averages 4.7 points and 3.6 rebounds in 10 minutes. The way Mbao is going he might not score 4.7 points in his entire career. And Dwight Burke as a senior couldn't even get as many points and had about the same number of rebounds in twice as much time (comparing to BSU's FOURTH best big), and Burke didn't fare any better during cupcake season when we play competition that might be worse than what BSU plays against.
The reason they are all contributing, is because they are all seniors and have had time to develop. Why don't you read some of their biographies and see what they were like as freshman. Better yet, why don't you take a look at some of the recent players who've been considered among the best big men in the country coming out of high school and see how little they did as freshman. Experience makes a world of difference for big men. You can't just dismiss it as "yeah I know they're all juniors and seniors" the fact that they are juniors and seniors is incredibly important.
Secondly, take a look at the offense BSU runs and compare how big men are utilized in that offense to how MU has used big men since Merritt graduated. You think Dwight Burke ever came close to getting that many touches or was ever counted on to score on his own like those players are? Of course not. In a similar situation, with similar usage, he'd provide similar results. But he was playing in an offense where he was never going see any of that, so to compare the numbers without any context is useless.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 11:13:29 AM
if you feel that way sultan than you have much to learn...90% of winning is recruiitng. the best tactical coach we have maybe ever had at MU was one of our worst at the end of the day. Mike Deane was great with KO's players and got fired when he replaced them with his dogs. The beloved Crean was great with Wade but stunk with Deanes left overs and then was terrible again after DWade left, signing the big 3 and saved his job.
Sorry junior but it is all about recruiting. look at Kentucky this year versus last year.
But no one is going to put you in the Hall of Fame for recruiting well. I have no problem with the idea that it is 90% of the game, but unless you can coach, the other 10% is going to be a failure.
Quote from: chapman on December 28, 2009, 12:47:42 PM
But why can just about every low major school get players 6'8" and above who at least know what sport they're playing and we can't? Boise State's current roster has four of them.
I am fairly certain that Buzz could get four 6'8" guys if he really wanted, but what sacrifices would he have to make athletically to get them? I mean, he got a 7'2" guy in Mbao, and you complain that he isn't good enough. It's not like 7'2" athletic basketball players grow on trees you know.
Ben Mills is not good enough to play at Marquette... end of story. MU took a long look at him. He has been to several games. Hard-working kid, but not high major material. Rarely if ever dunks despite being 7' 2". . He will take a long time to develop. Otule and Yous are much more athletic. Yous runs the floor much better and Otule has a much better body for the big east. Both have much more upside. Mills may prove me wrong, but we'll see.
Quote from: chapman on December 28, 2009, 12:47:42 PM
But why can just about every low major school get players 6'8" and above who at least know what sport they're playing and we can't? Boise State's current roster has four of them. Sure they're all juniors and seniors, but they're all contributing. The "worst" averages 4.7 points and 3.6 rebounds in 10 minutes. The way Mbao is going he might not score 4.7 points in his entire career. And Dwight Burke as a senior couldn't even get as many points and had about the same number of rebounds in twice as much time (comparing to BSU's FOURTH best big), and Burke didn't fare any better during cupcake season when we play competition that might be worse than what BSU plays against.
Chapman that is a really dumb paragraph. Burke did not score much for MU for 2 main reasons. First, becuase at most times last year he was the 5th best scoring option on the court. the other 4 players are either in the NBA or will spend time in NBA team camps, Summer leagues, or such. Second, because he was typically guarded by some of the top big men in the entire country.
If Burke was on the Boise State team...I will say this sight unseen he would have been either their best or second best option. He would be a much higher focal point of their offense and in most cases he would be being guarded by an inferior player.
You do realize a kid like Frozena scored 18 points a game and was an all-conference player in HS yet looks like an utter child out there, right. A guy like a Myamon can be a two time all state player and look like a fish out of water as a freshman...you simply dont understand how difficult it is to step up a class. Dwight buycks set scoring records in JUCO as an AA and at times has looked lost this year. Just becuase a kid has looked like a terror at a lower level does not mean it will translate to the next.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 28, 2009, 01:24:48 PM
But no one is going to put you in the Hall of Fame for recruiting well. I have no problem with the idea that it is 90% of the game, but unless you can coach, the other 10% is going to be a failure.
so are you saying you dont think Buzz can coach?
we yu saying that same thing last year when he had the talent and stood at 9-0 in the Big East and ranked #8 in the country. Could he coach then?
Was GAry Waters a good coach when his team was in the Elite 8 and then became a bad coach at Rutgers when he had the worst talent in the BE?
Please explain... I would really love to hear your explanation.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 01:58:39 PM
so are you saying you dont think Buzz can coach?
we yu saying that same thing last year when he had the talent and stood at 9-0 in the Big East and ranked #8 in the country. Could he coach then?
Was GAry Waters a good coach when his team was in the Elite 8 and then became a bad coach at Rutgers when he had the worst talent in the BE?
Please explain... I would really love to hear your explanation.
Hayward, that is totally jumping to conclusions. He never said anything like that.
He simply stated the obvious.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 28, 2009, 02:08:51 PM
Hayward, that is totally jumping to conclusions. He never said anything like that.
He simply stated the obvious.
Yeah, nice response.
Hayward please answer the following:
Do you think Buzz can coach?
Could he coach last year when they were at 9-0 in the BEAST?
When did Gary Waters take a team to the Elite 8? Kind of defeats your point?
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 01:58:39 PM
so are you saying you dont think Buzz can coach?
we yu saying that same thing last year when he had the talent and stood at 9-0 in the Big East and ranked #8 in the country. Could he coach then?
Was GAry Waters a good coach when his team was in the Elite 8 and then became a bad coach at Rutgers when he had the worst talent in the BE?
Please explain... I would really love to hear your explanation.
Good lord...stop jumping to conclusions. All I was responding to was the original poster's thought that by simply getting J.P. that Buzz makes the Hall of Fame. I never said that Buzz couldn't coach.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 01:58:39 PM
so are you saying you dont think Buzz can coach?
we yu saying that same thing last year when he had the talent and stood at 9-0 in the Big East and ranked #8 in the country. Could he coach then?
Was GAry Waters a good coach when his team was in the Elite 8 and then became a bad coach at Rutgers when he had the worst talent in the BE?
Please explain... I would really love to hear your explanation.
Mr. Hayward does your keyboard have all of it's keys (letters)?
Quote from: bma725 on December 28, 2009, 01:21:24 PM
Secondly, take a look at the offense BSU runs and compare how big men are utilized in that offense to how MU has used big men since Merritt graduated. You think Dwight Burke ever came close to getting that many touches or was ever counted on to score on his own like those players are? Of course not. In a similar situation, with similar usage, he'd provide similar results. But he was playing in an offense where he was never going see any of that, so to compare the numbers without any context is useless.
Then maybe we need to do something about our offense. If a 6-8 senior starter on a Big East team getting 20 minutes per game has the lowest scoring average of any regular starter in the country and can't even pull down 4 rebounds something isn't right. There's a free pass for this year because of health problems/injuries/transfers, but it's going to be very frustrating if we have to play in the best conference with a lineup that is smaller than 330-some other teams any longer than this. It's sad to see UWM and UWGB with players that have size and also don't need a special teaching session to guard an inbounds play and us trying to compete against the likes of Harangody, Onuaku, Monroe, and Samuels but still hoping that maybe some Juco project with the talent to play for Central Connecticut State might play for us instead.
Will you people quit picking on Mr. H.? Without him, MUScoop would be a very boring forum, indeed. His writing/typing mis-mechanics notwithstanding, he is provocative, opinionated, and insightful more often than not. And his love for MU is unsurpassed. What's not to like?
Quote from: avid1010 on December 28, 2009, 02:43:59 PM
Yeah, nice response.
Hayward please answer the following:
Do you think Buzz can coach?
Could he coach last year when they were at 9-0 in the BEAST?
When did Gary Waters take a team to the Elite 8? Kind of defeats your point?
i think you guys are lost in the thread i was commenting to Sultan's original comment to another poster that said Buzz should get in the MU HOF . Sultan said recruitng does not get you in a HOF but that winning does. I simply commented that 90% of winning is recruiting. And if i jumped to conclusions by saying that sutan was insinuating Buzz could not coach than I apologize. it is just beyond annoying that people continue to infer that becuase Buzz is a good recruiter he is a bad coach, or that becuase we are having a down year he is not a good coach. Hence the question relating to last year. or the question for the Crean lovers of in creans 6th year in the program when we were barely an NIT team did that make him a bad coach. Bottom line you cant win without good talent. And for the people that say Bo wins without talent i will counter that Wisco has the best talent they have ever had under Bo I also think he is a great coach but he accomplishes little without the NBA an other high level players he has had.
the knocks on otule and mbao get really stupid too. people reference Thabeet, and aron grey and others yet never look back at their freshman numbers they assume they had the same numbers as freshman as they put up during junior or senior season. really really ignorant comments. seems like since Crean never recruited bigs people have completely forgotten the progression. older fans will remeber Jim Mcilvaine as a freshman...he was terrible...he admitted to seriously considering quititng...and many ignorant fans probably would have encouraged him too. them booing him said the same. by his junior and senior seasons he was an all conference player and led Mu to 2 NCAA and a conference title.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 04:47:15 PM
i think you guys are lost in the thread i was commenting to Sultan's original comment to another poster that said Buzz should get in the MU HOF . Sultan said recruitng does not get you in a HOF but that winning does. I simply commented that 90% of winning is recruiting. And if i jumped to conclusions by saying that sutan was insinuating Buzz could not coach than I apologize. it is just beyond annoying that people continue to infer that becuase Buzz is a good recruiter he is a bad coach, or that becuase we are having a down year he is not a good coach. Hence the question relating to last year. or the question for the Crean lovers of in creans 6th year in the program when we were barely an NIT team did that make him a bad coach. Bottom line you cant win without good talent. And for the people that say Bo wins without talent i will counter that Wisco has the best talent they have ever had under Bo I also think he is a great coach but he accomplishes little without the NBA an other high level players he has had.
The bottom line was that he wasn't implying that Buzz can't coach.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 28, 2009, 10:56:28 AM
I have no reason to believe it was in jest.
I see some people had the nerve of turning this back into a serious basketball discussion. I am not trying to hijack it back. I just want to clarify my original post. I am too lazy to use teal, perhaps I should more often.
I am on vacation so I have no interest in being 100% serious. Plus, just yesterday, my daughter told me some of her friends don't get sarcasm. That is one of our normal modes of conversation in my family. I guess I have to remember not everyone knows my family.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 28, 2009, 03:15:36 PM
Good lord...stop jumping to conclusions. All I was responding to was the original poster's thought that by simply getting J.P. that Buzz makes the Hall of Fame. I never said that Buzz couldn't coach.
Sultan i apologize i jumped to conclusions i just get sick of all the idiots that say BUZZ cant coach yet about a year ago were saying he is a genius. Roy willimas or Bob knight would be hard pressed to do much more with our current group. as a defensive coach i will be the first to say if you cannot stop dribble penetration nothing else really matters ...and Acker and Cubi flat out cannot stop it.
then the Buzz cannot recruit bigs adn now that he has signed some cannot develop them BS is just plain stupid. now this big kid scores 18 in a HS game and Buzz should have signed him over mbao? i am sorry the stupidity just gets to me at times.
Again i aplogize for lumping you in with the morons. I will say tho that if Buzz keeps signing kids like junior, Vander, Jamail, and a kid like JP it is 90% of what it takes to becomae a HOF coach
Hayward seems to have quite the reputation on this board, but truth be told, I read his posts and tend to agree with 85-90% of this points. Also seem he and Chicos have an ongoing battle, and I find Chico's posts valid too. Anyway, keep it up Hayward/Chicos!!
I AGREE... YOU GUYS MAKE THIS PLACE FUN TO VISIT. OPINIONS AND INSIGHTS ARE WHAT I LOOK FOR AND THE OCCASSIONAL TEAL
Quote from: MUEng92 on December 28, 2009, 04:56:54 PM
I am too lazy to use teal, perhaps I should more often.
I know what you mean. A few mouse clicks is a lot of work!
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 05:00:53 PM
Sultan i apologize i jumped to conclusions i just get sick of all the idiots that say BUZZ cant coach yet about a year ago were saying he is a genius. Roy willimas or Bob knight would be hard pressed to do much more with our current group. as a defensive coach i will be the first to say if you cannot stop dribble penetration nothing else really matters ...and Acker and Cubi flat out cannot stop it.
then the Buzz cannot recruit bigs adn now that he has signed some cannot develop them BS is just plain stupid. now this big kid scores 18 in a HS game and Buzz should have signed him over mbao? i am sorry the stupidity just gets to me at times.
Again i aplogize for lumping you in with the morons. I will say tho that if Buzz keeps signing kids like junior, Vander, Jamail, and a kid like JP it is 90% of what it takes to becomae a HOF coach
Roy Williams and Bob Knight are no better than Buzz. Man, we are getting a bargain.
Quote from: Ners on December 28, 2009, 05:02:24 PM
Hayward seems to have quite the reputation on this board, but truth be told, I read his posts and tend to agree with 85-90% of this points. Also seem he and Chicos have an ongoing battle, and I find Chico's posts valid too. Anyway, keep it up Hayward/Chicos!!
+1
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 05:00:53 PM
Sultan i apologize i jumped to conclusions i just get sick of all the idiots that say BUZZ cant coach yet about a year ago were saying he is a genius. Roy willimas or Bob knight would be hard pressed to do much more with our current group. as a defensive coach i will be the first to say if you cannot stop dribble penetration nothing else really matters ...and Acker and Cubi flat out cannot stop it.
then the Buzz cannot recruit bigs adn now that he has signed some cannot develop them BS is just plain stupid. now this big kid scores 18 in a HS game and Buzz should have signed him over mbao? i am sorry the stupidity just gets to me at times.
Again i aplogize for lumping you in with the morons. I will say tho that if Buzz keeps signing kids like junior, Vander, Jamail, and a kid like JP it is 90% of what it takes to becomae a HOF coach
Think NC fans feel it's 90% recruiting and 10% coaching after watching Matt Doherty show no progress with his recruits, and then watching Roy Williams coach them?
The comments on the kid from Hartland are stupid. I've never seen him play, but when not one high major team offers the kid I pay no attention to those who criticize Buzz for not recruiting him. If Bo was willing to let him walk, it's obvious.
I'll also add that it's frustrating to watch teams, both mid and high major continuously develop big men with a great deal of skill. I understand why it's difficult, but I don't think it's acceptable. I have a feeling that if Liam and Otule weren't out, we'd be feeling much different about this subject.
I'm still interested to know if you think Buzz is a good coach?
Going back to the original intent of the topic at hand. I think that Buzz or Bo have a strong chance of signing JP. (Bo recently had lunch at MFHS with Buzz because sophomores can't leave campus) I realize how strong the allure of Duke and NC are but knowing what I know about JP's parents, they may want him to say close to home. The kid doesn't have a cell phone, facebook or even a drivers license. Buzz or Bo telling JP's parents that he's only 25/90 minutes from home and you can visit him any time they want may have enough pull.
But again... JP still has to maintain/improve his skill set.
Quote from: chapman on December 28, 2009, 04:35:45 PM
Then maybe we need to do something about our offense. If a 6-8 senior starter on a Big East team getting 20 minutes per game has the lowest scoring average of any regular starter in the country and can't even pull down 4 rebounds something isn't right. There's a free pass for this year because of health problems/injuries/transfers, but it's going to be very frustrating if we have to play in the best conference with a lineup that is smaller than 330-some other teams any longer than this. It's sad to see UWM and UWGB with players that have size and also don't need a special teaching session to guard an inbounds play and us trying to compete against the likes of Harangody, Onuaku, Monroe, and Samuels but still hoping that maybe some Juco project with the talent to play for Central Connecticut State might play for us instead.
You adjust the offense to what you have in order to maximize your talent on the roster and give yourself the best chance to win. If the roster had big men worthy of being fed the ball, they would get it. But it doesn't, so there's no point in throwing the ball in there and wasting the talent of the guys you've got.
Every coach in the country does it. Do you see Jay Wright worrying about paint touches and post up play when his 4 best players are guards? No, of course not. He runs an offense designed to win the most games with the talent he's got and then adjusts the offense when the talent dictates that in the future.
Quote from: bma725 on December 28, 2009, 08:35:36 PM
Do you see Jay Wright worrying about paint touches and post up play when his 4 best players are guards? No, of course not. He runs an offense designed to win the most games with the talent he's got and then adjusts the offense when the talent dictates that in the future.
Did Buzz make a big deal out of paint touches last year (and I missed it), or do we hear of it more this year because the focus is on getting Jimmy and Lazar the ball? It's interesting because you mention Nova's four guard offense, and I would think MU would then be too small to focus on paint touches as well. The mis-matches should come when guys like Butler and Hayward can draw bigger/slower BEAST defenders out on the perimeter, opening up the lane for penetration.
Quote from: avid1010 on December 28, 2009, 07:57:28 PM
Think NC fans feel it's 90% recruiting and 10% coaching after watching Matt Doherty show no progress with his recruits, and then watching Roy Williams coach them?
The comments on the kid from Hartland are stupid. I've never seen him play, but when not one high major team offers the kid I pay no attention to those who criticize Buzz for not recruiting him. If Bo was willing to let him walk, it's obvious.
I'll also add that it's frustrating to watch teams, both mid and high major continuously develop big men with a great deal of skill. I understand why it's difficult, but I don't think it's acceptable. I have a feeling that if Liam and Otule weren't out, we'd be feeling much different about this subject.
I'm still interested to know if you think Buzz is a good coach?
to answer your question...yes I think Buzz is a good coach. in fact i think most of the coaches out there are for the most part good coaches. I think a good coach can get more out of the same hand than a decent coach but the difference is small. I compare it to playing eucre or cards, skill is clearly involved but 90% of it is in the cards you are dealt...ie recruiting. I used to joke that i could guess within 2-3 games of what my teams record would be every year after the first practice...that is with no idea of what our opponents would be like. i could walk on the court ofr the first day of tryouts assess the talent and pretty much guess our record. great players make great coaches.
additionally, i think most of what the difference between great coaches and good coaches is not technical it is mentall. a great coach gets great buy in gets great effort every day in practice and allows that team to be tougher mentally than their oppoenent. Basketball is a very simple game and most things a coaches sees from another team he has seen 1000 times before, swing, flex, 1-3-1, 1-2-2, princeton, you name it whether it be offense or defense. Nothing is really new, the key is how committed and tough is your team and how talented is your team. i always knew we were going to be the toughest hardest working team the only thing i did not know was the talent level.
so to answer your question...i have been very pleased with Buzz. I screamed at my TV for 3 years for Crean to run a motion offense with the 3 amigos, and eveyone saw how they flourished under it last year. i do not blame our defensive issues this year on Buzz you have to have a good defensive PG or everything else falls apart, we do not. We could play zone but we have no experienced size. those two issues are do to bad luck in injuries and Crean leaving the cupboard bare.
lastly, i thought Crean was a decent coach...my coaching issues with him were he was to limited in what he was willing to do but i did not have abig problem with that as i said before it is a small part of wiining. do something with great intensity, with great mental and physical toughness and have great talent and it does not necessarily matter what it is that you do. Am i a proponent of the 2-3 defense ...no but Boeheim has won as mnay games and been as sucessful as anyone running it. My issues with Crean was he was a poor recruiter and not good enough of a coach to compensate for it. He signed way too many non high major recruits
Quote from: avid1010 on December 28, 2009, 08:59:34 PM
Did Buzz make a big deal out of paint touches last year (and I missed it), or do we hear of it more this year because the focus is on getting Jimmy and Lazar the ball? It's interesting because you mention Nova's four guard offense, and I would think MU would then be too small to focus on paint touches as well. The mis-matches should come when guys like Butler and Hayward can draw bigger/slower BEAST defenders out on the perimeter, opening up the lane for penetration.
He did, though maybe not as much. But when he says paint touches, he doesn't mean it in the traditional sense of passing the ball in to a big man in the paint he means it in terms of the player with the ball getting into the paint.
Is it just my imagination, or are deflections not in vogue anymore?
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 05:00:53 PM
Sultan i apologize i jumped to conclusions i just get sick of all the idiots that say BUZZ cant coach yet about a year ago were saying he is a genius. Roy willimas or Bob knight would be hard pressed to do much more with our current group. as a defensive coach i will be the first to say if you cannot stop dribble penetration nothing else really matters ...and Acker and Cubi flat out cannot stop it.
then the Buzz cannot recruit bigs adn now that he has signed some cannot develop them BS is just plain stupid. now this big kid scores 18 in a HS game and Buzz should have signed him over mbao? i am sorry the stupidity just gets to me at times.
Again i aplogize for lumping you in with the morons. I will say tho that if Buzz keeps signing kids like junior, Vander, Jamail, and a kid like JP it is 90% of what it takes to becomae a HOF coach
No problem. My opinion on Buzz is favorable so far, but I want to see where we are in a few years with his guys.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 28, 2009, 10:19:12 PM
No problem. My opinion on Buzz is favorable so far, but I want to see where we are in a few years with his guys.
This.
Quote from: Ari Gold on December 28, 2009, 08:05:48 PM
Going back to the original intent of the topic at hand. I think that Buzz or Bo have a strong chance of signing JP. (Bo recently had lunch at MFHS with Buzz because sophomores can't leave campus) I realize how strong the allure of Duke and NC are but knowing what I know about JP's parents, they may want him to say close to home. The kid doesn't have a cell phone, facebook or even a drivers license. Buzz or Bo telling JP's parents that he's only 25/90 minutes from home and you can visit him any time they want may have enough pull.
But again... JP still has to maintain/improve his skill set.
JP's stat line would be much more stacked if his HS coach would let him utilize himself more. Also, JP had 3 fouls on Sunday night and DIDN'T PLAY the 3rd quarter in a basically tied game. That coach was not smart having JP on the bench the whole quartter. I ohate when HS coached try to strategize every minute when they have a flat-ut star player (a la Steve Collins and Madison Memorial or last year with Vander).
JP should play 32 minutes every game, I don't care. Mem. Falls would be just another local white-boy team playing for a conference title instead of playing for a state title.
Quote from: MrRivals150 on December 29, 2009, 01:01:35 AM
JP's stat line would be much more stacked if his HS coach would let him utilize himself more. Also, JP had 3 fouls on Sunday night and DIDN'T PLAY the 3rd quarter in a basically tied game. That coach was not smart having JP on the bench the whole quartter. I ohate when HS coached try to strategize every minute when they have a flat-ut star player (a la Steve Collins and Madison Memorial or last year with Vander).
JP should play 32 minutes every game, I don't care. Mem. Falls would be just another local white-boy team playing for a conference title instead of playing for a state title.
Only saw the the first half and the first 10 minutes of the 3rd last night. I couldn't believe they only went to him like 5 times the first half. He finished with I believe 10 shots in the first half, but those came off of steals and rebounds. Meanwhile, I saw a kid pull a jumper from 5 feet behind the 3pt line after one pass into the play set. Of course, JP came back and absolutely dominated the 3rd.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 09:18:24 PM
My issues with Crean was he was a poor recruiter and not good enough of a coach to compensate for it. He signed way too many non high major recruits
Serious question--if Crean is such a poor recruiter and poor coach, how did he manage three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East (and leave the cupboard full enough for a 4th)?
In my mind, if he were a great coach/poor recruiter, 5th place would represent the ceiling for a team that overachieved its talent.
I expect that if he were a great recruiter/poor coach, 5th place would represent the expectation for a team coasting by on pure talent.
But I cannot see how a team can be
both poorly coached
and poorly recruited, but still manage a 4th or 5th place finish in the toughest conference in college basketball.
Quote from: avid1010 on December 28, 2009, 07:57:28 PM
I'll also add that it's frustrating to watch teams, both mid and high major continuously develop big men with a great deal of skill. I understand why it's difficult, but I don't think it's acceptable. I have a feeling that if Liam and Otule weren't out, we'd be feeling much different about this subject.
I think the question is whether those teams are successful at the level we want to be. We don't have a big like Luke Harangody or Greg Monroe. Where did ND and Georgetown finish in the league standings last year?
I think the huge question mark--typically never addressed--is whether a player like Monore or Harangody would
want to play with a backcourt as strong as MU's. There is an unstated assumption that
"of COURSE they would!" I'm beginning to think this isn't the case. It can be argued that quality big would rather be on a team with adequate guards so that a) he won't be overshadowed and b) he'll be unleashed from anywhere on the court.
Hayward (of all people) had the makings of a good point when he pointed out that Burke was the 5th offensive option on the team last year. The problem is that no matter WHO we brought in for 2007, 2008 or 2009, that still would have been the case. If you're a guy like Greg Monroe, do you want to come into a situation where you're the #5 option behind James, McNeal, Matthews and Hayward?
Tim Maymon aside, I think most bigs that are high-major talent believe that they are going to be able to step in and be one of the go-to players out of the gate. Monroe certainly was at Georgetown last year--and no matter how good he was, he would not have had such a role had he come to MU last year. Sure, he may have won a starting role over Burke--but he would still have been the 5th option.
I think both Crean and Buzz have the right idea--you can be pretty darn good if you get the guard rotation right. Then, I think both look at bigs in roughly three categories--Definite High-Major talents, Definite Mid-Major talents, and Risks-with-potential.
I don't think there's any difference between Buzz and Crean in their philosophy on the recruitment of bigs. Both went for high-major talent and missed. Both are bypassing mid-major talent. Both are going with risky under-the-radar choices in the hope than one turns into something special.
Right now, I don't see Mbao or McMorrow were any more or less solid than what I thought about Kinsella when he was signed.
I don't see Otule as any more or less of a potential contributor down the road than Barro.
Maymon was as much of a talented head case as Mbakwe.
Roseboro was as much of a longshot as Grimm--both posting fantastic numbers at schools/conferences without a history of producing D1 players and both getting an offer after one outstanding camp performance.
I think what Buzz still needs is a plan-B--people can argue that Crean's plan B players weren't very good--but I would argue that we would be a much better team this year with a player like Burke or Marcus Jackson or Ousmane Barro.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 29, 2009, 10:45:32 AM
I think the question is whether those teams are successful at the level we want to be. We don't have a big like Luke Harangody or Greg Monroe. Where did ND and Georgetown finish in the league standings last year?
I think the huge question mark--typically never addressed--is whether a player like Monore or Harangody would want to play with a backcourt as strong as MU's. There is an unstated assumption that
"of COURSE they would!" I'm beginning to think this isn't the case. It can be argued that quality big would rather be on a team with adequate guards so that a) he won't be overshadowed and b) he'll be unleashed from anywhere on the court.
There's a major difference between what MU has had down low the last 5 years and a player the likes of Monroe/Harangody. Something in between would be just dandy.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 29, 2009, 10:45:32 AM
Serious question--if Crean is such a poor recruiter and poor coach, how did he manage three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East (and leave the cupboard full enough for a 4th)?
Really, Joanie? Which "three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East" were those? I must have missed that 3 year top-5 finish stretch..
Quote from: warrior07 on December 29, 2009, 12:41:51 PM
Really, Joanie? Which "three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East" were those? I must have missed that 3 year top-5 finish stretch..
You must not pay attention at all.
2006: MU was 4th
2007: MU was T5
2008: MU was T5
That would be a 3 year Top 5 Finish stretch.
Mu84's question:
Serious question--if Crean is such a poor recruiter and poor coach, how did he manage three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East (and leave the cupboard full enough for a 4th)?
In my mind, if he were a great coach/poor recruiter, 5th place would represent the ceiling for a team that overachieved its talent.
I expect that if he were a great recruiter/poor coach, 5th place would represent the expectation for a team coasting by on pure talent.
But I cannot see how a team can be both poorly coached and poorly recruited, but still manage a 4th or 5th place finish in the toughest conference in college basketball.
Simple answer...Crean was a poor recruiter be cuase he signed 2 good classes in 8-9 years. His first class paid dividends but that was followed up by one bad class after another. Resulting in completely embarrasing years 5 and 6 of his teanure where we not only missed the dance but were routinely embarrasessed by mediocre C-Usa teams.
How will people react to Buzz if he has teams like Crean had in year 5 and 6, with barely 2-3 high D1 players on the team bgetting blown out and then scoring 40 points in an NIT game etc. Go back and look at some of the scores those years, they were embarrassing and the product was pathetic for a 5th/6th year coach.
Then he signed another good class in the 3 amigos that class to some degree saved his job. Unfortunately he followed it with 2-3 more years of bombs. Yes we had 3 solid finishes in the big East. But again with any support or for that matter where could we have gone without the worst front court in the BE those 3 years? Adiitonally, there was no one else, cupboard was bare...Jerel gets hurt Mu is dead. Dominic gets hurt Mu is dead ...Crean is bringing in MEAC type players off the bench.
I dont think Crean recruited to the level he could have. I lso I never said Crean was a poor coach a"poor" coach, I said "decent". Sorry I called your girlfriend "decent" and you got al emotional and heard "poor". Two good recruiting classes in 9 and all the flops and transfers and the misses etc. cause me to give him the label poor.
Consider this how does a guy kids have never even heard of get a job the national media and local fans said he was not worthy of and un prepared for sign a class better than any of the 9 classes Crean signed even though Crean put himself on the big stage? Then the Crean apologists said well Buzz cannot repeat it Crean could only signe classes when he had tons of playing time to give out ( ie the two good classes he signed) then Buzz follows it with arguably an even better class. Addiotnally, Crean cant get bigs becuase bigs dont want to go to Mu. Then Buzz signs two 7 footers and a 6'10 guy in 18 months. I mean i dont want you to have to say anything bad but I mean good golly look at the entire laundry list of Crean recruits and how many of them were really high major players? And i dont want to hurt your feelings but look at what Buzz has done with absolutely no rep and Crean was great at making excuses but Buzz has flat out got it done on the recruitng trail. Do you think Buzz would have signed Brandon bell, carlton christian, James Matthews Jamil Lott & mike Kinsella after going to a Final 4? Soryy but the facts are the facts
Quote from: bma725 on December 29, 2009, 01:00:30 PM
You must not pay attention at all.
2006: MU was 4th
2007: MU was T5
2008: MU was T5
That would be a 3 year Top 5 Finish stretch.
You must not pay much attention to Marquette basketball. We were 6th in 2007.
Quote from: warrior07 on December 29, 2009, 01:59:56 PM
You must not pay much attention to Marquette basketball. We were 6th in 2007.
Then you better correct ESPN as well....http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2007
Quote from: avid1010 on December 29, 2009, 02:39:40 PM
Then you better correct ESPN as well....http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2007
You're right. I guess we actually beat 'cuse that year. Do you really not realize that ESPN is using overall percent when the conference record is the same? My goodness.
Are the Crean apologists this desperate to make up sh!t in his defense? I think I have more Crean "bashers" on block, but in the race to make up stuff out of thin air, the apologists seem to win by a mile. Is it that necessary to make up by one place the standings of one year? Yikes.
Quote from: warrior07 on December 29, 2009, 03:06:58 PM
Is it that necessary to make up by one place the standings of one year? Yikes.
No one is trying to change the standing except you.
The Big East Conference officially considers MU's finish in the 2006-07 season to be T5, not 6.
Just because they lost the tie breaker and were the 6th seed in the conference tournament does not mean that they finished in 6th place in the conference.
Quote from: warrior07 on December 29, 2009, 03:06:58 PM
You're right. I guess we actually beat 'cuse that year. Do you really not realize that ESPN is using overall percent when the conference record is the same? My goodness.
Are the Crean apologists this desperate to make up sh!t in his defense? I think I have more Crean "bashers" on block, but in the race to make up stuff out of thin air, the apologists seem to win by a mile. Is it that necessary to make up by one place the standings of one year? Yikes.
I hate TC, and MU finished 5th. The two have nothing to do with each other.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 29, 2009, 01:18:42 PM
Simple answer...Crean was a poor recruiter be cuase he signed 2 good classes in 8-9 years.
I think most would disagree with your assessment. Is a class with Steve Novak "poor"? Is a class with Travis Diener "poor"? Is a class with Lazar Hayward "poor"? Is a class with Trevor Mbakwe "poor"? Is a class with Tyshawn Taylor "poor"? Is a class with Robert Jackson "poor"?
Was the room for improvment? Sure.
Was is "poor"? Hardly.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 29, 2009, 01:18:42 PM
Resulting in completely embarrasing years 5 and 6 of his teanure where we not only missed the dance but were routinely embarrasessed by mediocre C-Usa teams.
The frustrating thing with you is that you ignore inconvenient facts, use 20/20 hindsight, or both.
Isn't the 2005 season comparable to Kevin O'Neill's 2nd season 11-18 record where we not only missed the dance, but the NIT as well, and were routinely embarassed by MCC teams?
And isn't the reason for the sub-par performance the loss of the PG on the team (Diener to injury, KStewart kicked off by KO).
But you give KO a pass, and rip Crean every chance you get.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 29, 2009, 01:18:42 PM
How will people react to Buzz if he has teams like Crean had in year 5 and 6, with barely 2-3 high D1 players on the team bgetting blown out and then scoring 40 points in an NIT game etc. Go back and look at some of the scores those years, they were embarrassing and the product was pathetic for a 5th/6th year coach.
My guess is that if Buzz precedes those seasons with a Final Four appearance, and follows them up with three straight top 5 finishes in the big east powered by four of the top 10 scorers in MU history, MOST people will look at his overall track record and not judge him based on his worst performances.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 29, 2009, 01:18:42 PM
Yes we had 3 solid finishes in the big East. But again with any support or for that matter where could we have gone without the worst front court in the BE those 3 years?
For all your anger over Crean on this point, we're actually worse up front this year, and won't improve much next year, barring a miracle. The HS bigs that can step in an make a difference year one are gone. Mbao will need a miracle to even step up to Ousmane Barro quality next year.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 29, 2009, 01:18:42 PM
I lso I never said Crean was a poor coach a"poor" coach, I said "decent". Sorry I called your girlfriend "decent" and you got al emotional and heard "poor". Two good recruiting classes in 9 and all the flops and transfers and the misses etc. cause me to give him the label poor.
I apologize for the misunderstanding. You used the words "stunk" and "terrible" earlier in the thread. Forgive me for substituting the word "poor".
"The beloved Crean was great with Wade but stunk with Deanes left overs and then was terrible again after DWade left, signing the big 3 and saved his job. " Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 11:13:29 AM
Consider this how does a guy kids have never even heard of get a job the national media and local fans said he was not worthy of and un prepared for sign a class better than any of the 9 classes Crean signed even though Crean put himself on the big stage?
You never heard me say that. I think HS kids react favorably to most new coaches, and given them a great recruting class or two--especially when the new coach is a high-major assistant who has been out dealing with these kids already for several years.
Thats why you saw me favoring Buzz over the mid-major head coaches like Brad Brownell or Jim Les.
The challenge for these new coaches typically comes later. We'll see what happens with Buzz.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 11:13:29 AM
Then the Crean apologists said well Buzz cannot repeat it Crean could only signe classes when he had tons of playing time to give out ( ie the two good classes he signed) then Buzz follows it with arguably an even better class.
I don't think we can conclude Buzz has recruited better yet. The result will be in the W/L record this year and the next several seasons.
Right now he has a whole lot of incompletes/withdrawls/failures.
Clearly he's missed on Clark, Bowen, Roseboro, Maymon, etc.
And I think his promising players who have been injured have got to live up to their expectations before his recruiting can truly be considered great. After all, you're using 20/20 hindsight on Crean's recruits.
Will Cadougan surpass Diener or James?
Will Blue surpass Wade or McNeal?
Will Jones surpass Matthews?
Will Mbao surpass Kinsella? Burke? Barro? Merritt? Jackson?
Will they collectively be better than 4th place in the Big East? Will collectively they ever reach a final four?
We don't know.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 11:13:29 AM
Addiotnally, Crean cant get bigs becuase bigs dont want to go to Mu. Then Buzz signs two 7 footers and a 6'10 guy in 18 months. I mean i dont want you to have to say anything bad but I mean good golly look at the entire laundry list of Crean recruits and how many of them were really high major players?
You forgot the verbal from another 6'10" guy. Bit of a risk character-wise and will never enroll at MU. But he got the verbal.
So Buzz's track record on recruiting bigs is this: Clark, Roseboro and McMorrow will never play a game for MU. Mbao a MAJOR project.
Now, to be fair, Buzz deserves a pass for some bad luck and injuries, which I'm willing to grant. You
don't give Crean a pass for similar bad luck or injury.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 28, 2009, 11:13:29 AM
And i dont want to hurt your feelings but look at what Buzz has done with absolutely no rep and Crean was great at making excuses but Buzz has flat out got it done on the recruitng trail. Do you think Buzz would have signed Brandon bell, carlton christian, James Matthews Jamil Lott & mike Kinsella after going to a Final 4?
Well he signed Brett Roseboro with a ton of minutes to hand out, so I would say anything is possible. ;D
Seriously, I don't know.
First off, Buzz hasn't made it to a final four yet. More importantly, he hasn't had to whether the rumors of "Buzz to . . . " whatever high-profile opening is around that year. He hasn't had to recruit yet agianst Bo Ryan telling recruits that Buzz won't be at MU when they graduate (or even when they enroll).
We'll see what happens if and when that occurs.
nice - a JP Tokoto thread turns into a Crean vs Buzz pissing match, gotta love this board...
lol welcome to MUScoop.