7:17 left Mu claws back to down 54-57. Wisco puts up a bad 3 and a rebound goes straight up and #5 Wilson? goes up and gets it over MU's interior players and lays it in.
a close second was Mu claws back in and Hughes gets a rebound and a foul over Hornswaggle ( thanks TC)
and in 3rd place Mu claws back in and Bohannon gets a rebound over Cubillan. ( thanks TC)
As Lavin said all the "empty possessions" killed us also. Too many times we didn't even get a shot off and instead turned it over when we had a chance to cut into the lead further.
To me one of the plays of the game came in the 1st half when Wisconsin had 3 seconds on the shot clock with a baseline inbounds and they manage to get a bunny with a second left. Defensive break downs like that cannot happen.
I hope Lavin is correct when he said: "Both of these teams will be in the NCAA tournament."
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 12, 2009, 06:20:47 PM
7:17 left Mu claws back to down 54-57. Wisco puts up a bad 3 and a rebound goes straight up and #5 Wilson? goes up and gets it over MU's interior players and lays it in.
a close second was Mu claws back in and Hughes gets a rebound and a foul over Hornswaggle ( thanks TC)
and in 3rd place Mu claws back in and Bohannon gets a rebound over Cubillan. ( thanks TC)
I wonder how UWGB with their 3 guard offense beat them the other day. In fact, they played 4 guards for part of the game. Damn TC
LOL
see chicos that is where your stupidity kicks in, i could care less if we play 2-3-4-5 guards. the issue is TC's guard holdovers have mid major talent not BE talent. In fact I would take Cotton and acouple other UW GB guards over Acker and Cubi.
W ewill be fine when buzz's boys DJO, Blue, and Junior are running the show.
Actually the play of the game was when the refs went to review the play to see if Butler was fowled. After that I knew the fix was in.
even my Badger friends said "you will be a lot better when Acker and Cubillian are replaced with Blue and Cadougan"....
I thought the play of the game was late second half and Hayward misses a bunny (while being hacked), gets his own rebound and misses another bunny (while being hacked), gets his own rebound and puts it in while being hacked and no fouls called! Now, my seats were for crap and I may be wrong on one of the fouls, but he for sure should have gone to the line.
In year two post KO, we were a 4 seed in the NCAAs with all KO players
In year two post TC, we have Lazar, 2 midgets and a bunch of Buzz players. If there is any doubt TC left us high and dry, a simple comparison to 1996 answers the question.
Thankfully help is on the way.
Quote from: augoman on December 12, 2009, 10:12:21 PM
I thought the play of the game was late second half and Hayward misses a bunny (while being hacked), gets his own rebound and misses another bunny (while being hacked), gets his own rebound and puts it in while being hacked and no fouls called! Now, my seats were for crap and I may be wrong on one of the fouls, but he for sure should have gone to the line.
There is NO QUESTION he should have gone to the line. He got absolutely mugged--twice--on that play. I still can't believe he actually scored on that possession.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on December 12, 2009, 08:40:34 PM
even my Badger friends said "you will be a lot better when Acker and Cubillian are replaced with Blue and Cadougan"....
Can we stop waiting on next year already. These are our warriors, we could have won today despite the slow start.
Quote from: The Lens on December 12, 2009, 10:26:30 PM
In year two post KO, we were a 4 seed in the NCAAs with all KO players
In year two post TC, we have Lazar, 2 midgets and a bunch of Buzz players. If there is any doubt TC left us high and dry, a simple comparison to 1996 answers the question.
Thankfully help is on the way.
+1. In year two we have 1 senior, no junior and no sophmore Big East caliber players left over from the previous regime. In year three that becomes no seniors and no juniors. This was a train wreck waiting to happen. Jimmy Butler (a late signing home run - something thought to be impossible after seeing strikeout after strikeout under Crean) and back to back good recruiting classes (another no no under TC) have saved us from the abyss. Thanks Buzz.
Quote from: The Lens on December 12, 2009, 10:26:30 PM
In year two post KO, we were a 4 seed in the NCAAs with all KO players
Hmm. Did you forget about Jarrod Lovette and Mike Bargen on that team?
BTW, in year
one post KO, we were an NIT team.
I think you're reaching SJS. Bargen & Lovette were mce players but I think we relied on Amal, Eford, Piep, Crawford, Fai & Hutch just as much.
Now that's what I call a well stocked cupboard.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 12, 2009, 07:14:09 PM
see chicos that is where your stupidity kicks in, i could care less if we play 2-3-4-5 guards. the issue is TC's guard holdovers have mid major talent not BE talent. In fact I would take Cotton and acouple other UW GB guards over Acker and Cubi.
W ewill be fine when buzz's boys DJO, Blue, and Junior are running the show.
Ahh, so now we finally get to the point. You see, for months it was about size, now it's about skill. On that, we can agree.
By the way, Tyshawn Taylor would have looked pretty good in yesterday's game as well. But that's life my friend. Can you imagine how much worse we would have been if Buzz didn't beg back Mo to the team?
We are what we are (though your predictions have changed so many times in the last 2 months I can't keep track). Why we played zone against that team is beyond me, but that was the coaches call. Nice comeback at times, some really poor plays at other times by veteran guys, but this was our first true road game so it's not that surprising.
Quote from: The Lens on December 12, 2009, 10:26:30 PM
In year two post KO, we were a 4 seed in the NCAAs with all KO players
In year two post TC, we have Lazar, 2 midgets and a bunch of Buzz players. If there is any doubt TC left us high and dry, a simple comparison to 1996 answers the question.
Thankfully help is on the way.
Last I checked, there were a bunch of Big East players here when he left, but they didn't want to play for Buzz. That was their choice, but I think TT, NW, TM would have done well for MU yesterday. The said they didn't want to play for BW. That's life, plus throw in the unfortunate injuries to our guys and it's going to be this way this year.
Hopefully by next year they get it going.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 13, 2009, 09:53:02 AM
I think TT, NW, TM would have done well for MU yesterday. The said they didn't want to play for BW.
Apparently, they didn't want to play for Crean either. Well, NW did before he got run off.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 13, 2009, 09:53:02 AM
Last I checked, there were a bunch of Big East players here when he left, but they didn't want to play for Buzz. That was their choice, but I think TT, NW, TM would have done well for MU yesterday. The said they didn't want to play for BW. That's life, plus throw in the unfortunate injuries to our guys and it's going to be this way this year.
Hopefully by next year they get it going.
chicos i cannot disagree with you on the kids that left. but that really has nothing to do with the fact of why is Crean offering scholarships to Acker and Cubes and chrsitopherson another one who left.
Simple yes or no question...are Acker and Cubes big east caliber players?
another simple yes or no questions... from waht you have seen since 4/8/2008. would Buzz Williams have offered those two guys? (acker and cubes)?
I may be wrong on my observations, but some of the game changing plays of the game:
1. Review of foul on Butler. I was like thinking. Did Bo throw a red challenge flag? Or did Bo tell the refs to go look at the monitor. Looked really fishy to me. Bo didn't like the call so, better review it.
2. Coobey out hustling Leur for a rebound in the corner. Coobey comes up with the ball but gets the foul call against Leur. Coobey was just staring at the ref at the foul line while Leur was shooting.
3. Maymon tears out a free rebound but the refs call a foul on Maymon.
4. I thought there was a clear bias in calls. Worst than the Misery game last year.
My conclusion, Bo was not going to get three losses to Marquette in a row.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 13, 2009, 10:04:35 AM
Apparently, they didn't want to play for Crean either. Well, NW did before he got run off.
The Nick Williams saga epitomizes what Tom Crean is all about.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 13, 2009, 09:53:02 AM
Last I checked, there were a bunch of Big East players here when he left, but they didn't want to play for Buzz. That was their choice, but I think TT, NW, TM would have done well for MU yesterday. The said they didn't want to play for BW. That's life, plus throw in the unfortunate injuries to our guys and it's going to be this way this year.
Hopefully by next year they get it going.
Oh, good God, give me a break. Taylor's decision had almost nothing to do with Buzz. Taylor wanted out from
Marquette the second Kansas came calling. The coaching change just provided him with a convenient excuse to bail on his commitment.
As for Nick Williams, labeling him a Big East player may be slightly generous. Maybe a Big East bench player. I don't see him getting a whole lot of minutes on the roster right now, and even less next year with the arrivals of Blue and Jones.
Mbakwe may have helped with his size, but he was a flake whose off-court issues may have been far more trouble than he was worth. For a man who's criticized Buzz over the "type" of players he's recruited, I find it a bit ironic that you're pining for the likes of Mbakwe.
And why no mention of Scott Christopherson? Maybe it's because he's virtually vanished at Iowa State now that they've played some real competition?
Quote from: mviale on December 13, 2009, 12:03:45 AM
Can we stop waiting on next year already. These are our warriors, we could have won today despite the slow start.
Could have won??? We trailed this game coast to coast. We have no answer for their size. They beat us plain and simple.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 13, 2009, 09:53:02 AM
Last I checked, there were a bunch of Big East players here when he left, but they didn't want to play for Buzz. That was their choice, but I think TT, NW, TM would have done well for MU yesterday. The said they didn't want to play for BW. That's life, plus throw in the unfortunate injuries to our guys and it's going to be this way this year.
Hopefully by next year they get it going.
I can't believe you can write this stuff with a straight face. TOTALLY misrepresents the facts. I'm done with you.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 13, 2009, 09:53:02 AM
Last I checked, there were a bunch of Big East players here when he left, but they didn't want to play for Buzz. That was their choice, but I think TT, NW, TM would have done well for MU yesterday. The said they didn't want to play for BW. That's life, plus throw in the unfortunate injuries to our guys and it's going to be this way this year.
Hopefully by next year they get it going.
Chico, This is BS and you know it
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 13, 2009, 12:21:11 PM
Chico, This is BS and you know it
How is that BS? When TC left so did a number of BE caliber players that only wanted to play for TC.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 13, 2009, 12:39:04 PM
How is that BS? When TC left so did a number of BE caliber players that only wanted to play for TC.
Taylor's deal had nothing to do with It's Indiana. Hardly. He got a better prom date and went for it, without so much as a by your leave to MU.
Nick Williams is not a BE quality starter. We will never know all the details of what happened in Bloomington but I think that record has been played before by the Tanned Maestro.
As for TM, I think we can all agree the program is much better off without him, can't we?
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 13, 2009, 12:39:04 PM
How is that BS? When TC left so did a number of BE caliber players that only wanted to play for TC.
They only wanted to play for TC? Then why didn't they all follow him to Indiana?
In fact, three of the four players who left chose to go somewhere Tom Crean wasn't.
Two of them - Taylor and Williams - asked out of their commitments long before Buzz Williams was named coach. So to suggest that they "didn't want to play for Buzz Williams" is assinine and false.
And BS.
They didn't want to come to Marquette, regardless of who was the coach.
I recall someone posted here or on the other board that within a few days of the It's Indiana, It's Indiana April Fools Day Joke he saw Seltzer and Buckley at the Milwaukee Airport. They were all kitted out in Indiana garb and were headed down to Mobile, AL. This was before BW was named the MU coach.
The irony is I wonder what Nick would tell that crew today...
The best part about all of this is Chicos is just effing with people, whereas SJS actually believes it.
Quote from: The Lens on December 13, 2009, 07:38:07 AM
I think you're reaching SJS. Bargen & Lovette were mce players but I think we relied on Amal, Eford, Piep, Crawford, Fai & Hutch just as much.
Now that's what I call a well stocked cupboard.
And I would call a team with McNeal, Matthews and James well stocked as well. I guess your beef is that Crean left behind seniors instead of juniors.
Deane inherited a team that still needed development. That's why they only made the NIT the following year.
Buzz inherited a team that virtually guaranteed him a top 4 finish in the Big East, and he made the NCAA tournament and damn near made the Sweet 16.
Quote from: The Lens on December 13, 2009, 01:44:32 PM
The best part about all of this is Chicos is just effing with people, whereas SJS actually believes it.
Yes, I truly believe that we made the NCAA tournament in Buzz's first year, and that we only made the NIT in Deane's first year. BTW, I'm pretty sure Chicos truly believes that as well.
The question is why did you skip over the first season in your comparison of Deane to Buzz?
Never mind. We know that answer. Its a lot harder to argue that Crean left the cupboard bare when you consider James, McNeal and Matthews.
Sometimes I have to wonder how Tom Crean - Buzz Williams/Chicos-Hayward has anything to do with this thread's title: "Play of the game..."
Hey guys, Crean's gone. Buzz is in. We have the players we have. Tom Crean has NOTHING to do with winning the most games we can this year (ever heard of a sunk cost?).
In the future, make a new thread for your pissing matchs and title it as such.
Stop falling into the Hate and doubt. We are not going to the sweet 16 this year, but lets enjoy Lazar's last year and the improvement of the newcomers. Also -does anyone remember this similar loss to Wisconsin.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=253440275 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=253440275)
Quote from: akmarq on December 13, 2009, 05:50:05 PM
Sometimes I have to wonder how Tom Crean - Buzz Williams/Chicos-Hayward has anything to do with this thread's title: "Play of the game..."
I can tell you exactly how it happened.
Hayward started yet another thread to bitch about Crean, and he unfortunately chose to call it "Play of the game . . . "
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 12, 2009, 06:20:47 PM
7:17 left Mu claws back to down 54-57. Wisco puts up a bad 3 and a rebound goes straight up and #5 Wilson? goes up and gets it over MU's interior players and lays it in.
a close second was Mu claws back in and Hughes gets a rebound and a foul over Hornswaggle ( thanks TC)
and in 3rd place Mu claws back in and Bohannon gets a rebound over Cubillan. ( thanks TC)
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 13, 2009, 05:35:52 PM
And I would call a team with McNeal, Matthews and James well stocked as well. I guess your beef is that Crean left behind seniors instead of juniors.
Deane inherited a team that still needed development. That's why they only made the NIT the following year.
Buzz inherited a team that virtually guaranteed him a top 4 finish in the Big East, and he made the NCAA tournament and damn near made the Sweet 16.
Yes, I truly believe that we made the NCAA tournament in Buzz's first year, and that we only made the NIT in Deane's first year. BTW, I'm pretty sure Chicos truly believes that as well.
The question is why did you skip over the first season in your comparison of Deane to Buzz?
Never mind. We know that answer. Its a lot harder to argue that Crean left the cupboard bare when you consider James, McNeal and Matthews.
Because several months ago you said TC left the program in better shape than KO. My point is that TC left is with 1 year of talent and KO left us with 3 years. I guess you could say TC planned short term whereas Kevin planned long term.
Quote from: The Lens on December 13, 2009, 08:39:52 PM
Because several months ago you said TC left the program in better shape than KO. My point is that TC left is with 1 year of talent and KO left us with 3 years. I guess you could say TC planned short term whereas Kevin planned long term.
To be fair, TC left a healthy Otule (isn't TC's fault that he's been hurt twice), healthy Fulce, Tyshawn Taylor (looks great) and Nick Williams (looks like a good player) and Christopherson (looks like he can be a role player).
Now, with the transfers and injuries, Buzz has had to rebuild quickly (which he has done a very good job of).
As far as comparing it to KO, it's not an apples to apples comparison. Crean left a senior loaded team and Buzz has had to build on the fly.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2009, 01:08:03 PM
They only wanted to play for TC? Then why didn't they all follow him to Indiana?
In fact, three of the four players who left chose to go somewhere Tom Crean wasn't.
Two of them - Taylor and Williams - asked out of their commitments long before Buzz Williams was named coach. So to suggest that they "didn't want to play for Buzz Williams" is assinine and false.
And BS.
They didn't want to come to Marquette, regardless of who was the coach.
Who knows who they wanted to play for, all we know is they didn't want to play for Buzz. TT's coach came right out and said it. It's not false at all, they are HIS WORDS.
As for why they didn't go to IU, well you're a smart guy Pakuni...why don't you answer that? Could it be that they were on probation? Hmmmm.
And that's nonsense to say they didn't want to come to Marquette, regardless of who was the coach. Totally ridiculous on your part. TT and his coach said because it was Buzz, who they didn't even know, he wasn't coming. If MU had hired someone else, who knows. But don't be naive, they didn't want to play for Buzz, they did want to play for TC, that's why they signed with MU. Do deny that is silly.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 13, 2009, 10:04:35 AM
Apparently, they didn't want to play for Crean either. Well, NW did before he got run off.
You can't have it both ways PRN, they SIGNED TO PLAY AT MARQUETTE WITH TOM CREAN. They most certainly wanted to play or him or they wouldn't HAVE SIGNED TO PLAY AT MU WITH HIM AS COACH!!
Did they want to follow him to IU who was going on probation? Why do you guys ignore this vital piece of information? Of course they didn't.
Let's put it another way, if TC was still at MU, they would have been playing at MU. TC left, they didn't want to play for Buzz. Pretty simple.
Happens all the time, by the way. The guy that recruited you leaves and you don't want to hang out with the new guy, especially when no one knows a damn thing about the new guy except that he had one year of head coaching experience and a losing record. Some of these recruits feel they have a shot at the NBA, they aren't going to put their asset (their body and skills) into the hands of someone they don't know. That's not a knock on Buzz, it's reality. Until Buzz puts players in the NBA, that's going to be the deal.
They wanted to play for TC at MU. TC left....they didn't want to play for Buzz at MU. End of story.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2009, 10:36:52 AM
Oh, good God, give me a break. Taylor's decision had almost nothing to do with Buzz. Taylor wanted out from Marquette the second Kansas came calling. The coaching change just provided him with a convenient excuse to bail on his commitment.
As for Nick Williams, labeling him a Big East player may be slightly generous. Maybe a Big East bench player. I don't see him getting a whole lot of minutes on the roster right now, and even less next year with the arrivals of Blue and Jones.
Mbakwe may have helped with his size, but he was a flake whose off-court issues may have been far more trouble than he was worth. For a man who's criticized Buzz over the "type" of players he's recruited, I find it a bit ironic that you're pining for the likes of Mbakwe.
And why no mention of Scott Christopherson? Maybe it's because he's virtually vanished at Iowa State now that they've played some real competition?
SC played 18 minutes yesterday against a Big Ten team. I didn't realized he vanished....he's playing, wish Erik Williams was. SC hasn't played less than 15 minutes in ANY game this year. His coach obviously believes he's worthy enough to play those minutes. No one, least of all me, stated that SC would be a starter at MU...so let's not go overboard. I said he was a good, spot up shooter that can stretch defenses and would be a nice change of pace type player. Considering he's averaging over 21 minutes a game, I have to assume he will continue to get those minutes during the Big 12 conference season.
Nick Williams, he was a top 100 player, whether he would be a bench player in the Big East...we won't know ...now will we. But I'll take a top 100 player most times.
Where did I say I wanted Mbakwe? In fact I never have. I simply stated a fact, he was here, didn't transfer until right before the season started....why, I don't know. But he was a talented player who unfortunately has a ton of issues, but let's also not pretend that Buzz didn't want him or wasn't very upset when he left (issues or not).
What I challenged was that there were no Big East players or the cupboard was bare. That's complete bullcrap. There were players here, but they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams. That's fine, it happens often. But the implication is that somehow the previous staff didn't recruit anyone and just left with no one here....not the case, in fact there were some players here but they didn't want to play for the new coach. That is a fact, why you want to spin it I don't know why.
Quote from: The Lens on December 13, 2009, 08:39:52 PM
Because several months ago you said TC left the program in better shape than KO. My point is that TC left is with 1 year of talent and KO left us with 3 years. I guess you could say TC planned short term whereas Kevin planned long term.
Of course Crean left MU in better shape than O'Neill did.
--NCAA team vs. NIT team
--An assistant ready to take over (Buzz) vs. starting over with an outside hire (Deane)
--Four starters (all future top 10 scorers) returning vs. two starters returning
--Leaving for one of the handful of national elite NCAA programs of all time vs. leaving for a never-was that had less prestige than even the women's team at the same school
--The Al complete vs. Old Gym with vague promises of future improvements
--Big East Conference affiliation vs. GMC/CUSA
--top 10 attendance that nearly filled the BC 5-6 times year and grew the next season vs. attendance that only filled the BC for Wisconsin & Cincinnati, and fell significantly the next year.
And the biggest one for me:
--Crean hasn't said single negative thing about MU since he left, while O'Neill publicly dissed MU and its fans on his way out of town.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 13, 2009, 09:54:27 PM
Who knows who they wanted to play for, all we know is they didn't want to play for Buzz. TT's coach came right out and said it. It's not false at all, they are HIS WORDS.
Sigh ... let's go over this very slowly, Chico's.
Afternoon of April 1, 2008 ... TC leaves Marquette for Indiana.
Evening of April 1, 2008 ... Tyshawn Taylor asks out of his commitment.
April 9, 2008 ... Marquette announces Buzz Williams as its new head coach.
Taylor asked out of his Marquette commitment
eight days before Buzz was named coach, and just hours after Crean left.
Now, knowing these
facts are you really going to stand by this notion that the reason Tyshawn Taylor isn't at Marquette is because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams? Did he somehow know just hours afterwards that Buzz was going to be named the next coach?
QuoteAnd that's nonsense to say they didn't want to come to Marquette, regardless of who was the coach.
Then why did Taylor ask out of his commitment even before he knew who the coach would be?
Call it nonsense all you like, but the facts are the facts.
QuoteAs for why they didn't go to IU, well you're a smart guy Pakuni...why don't you answer that? Could it be that they were on probation? Hmmmm.
Ummmm .... no. Because I'm a smart enough guy to know Indiana was placed on probation in November 2008, seven months after Taylor and Christopherson chose to go elsewhere, and three months after Mbakwe did. And that probation was devastating .... no loss of postseason play, the loss of one scholarship for one year and a public reprimand. Gasp! A virtual death penalty.
But you're right ... no way Scott Christopherson or Trevor Mbakwe would want to sit out a year at a school that's on probation. I mean, what fun is it sitting on the bench for a team on probation, as opposed to playing in the exciting world of JUCO or sitting on the bench in Ames, Iowa? I mean, sure, Iowa State wasn't much better than Indiana last year, but at least they weren't on probation.
Of course, Nick Williams didn't mind so much. Until he was shown the door, that is.
QuoteTT and his coach said because it was Buzz, who they didn't even know, he wasn't coming.
Please, get your facts straight.
From Tyshawn Taylor Q&A in Zags blog, April 10, 2008:
Q: What kind of relationship do you have with Coach Williams?
A: He recruited me. I had a better relationship with him than with Coach Crean. "Q: What are you concerned about at Marquette going forward?
A: I want to know how many minutes I would play this year. They have a lot of guards. I know three of them are going to be seniors, Jerel McNeal, Wesley Matthew, and Dominic James. David Cubilllan and Maurice Acker are on the bench. That's five guards. Nick Williams asked for his released before we knew who the coach was going to be. That's six guards not including me."QuoteBut don't be naive, they didn't want to play for Buzz, they did want to play for TC, that's why they signed with MU. Do deny that is silly.
Yeah, it's naive and silly to deal with facts. Much better to make up stuff about Indiana being on probation when those kids decided not to go there or how Tyshawn Taylor never knew Buzz Williams.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 13, 2009, 10:09:12 PM
SC played 18 minutes yesterday against a Big Ten team. I didn't realized he vanished....he's playing, wish Erik Williams was. SC hasn't played less than 15 minutes in ANY game this year. His coach obviously believes he's worthy enough to play those minutes.
SC's first six games: 22.8 minutes, 6.7 attempts, 10.2 points
SC's last four games: 19.8 minutes, 2.5 attempts, 4.0 points.
Nope, nothing to see here.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2009, 11:58:53 PM
Sigh ... let's go over this very slowly, Chico's.
Afternoon of April 1, 2008 ... TC leaves Marquette for Indiana.
Evening of April 1, 2008 ... Tyshawn Taylor asks out of his commitment.
April 9, 2008 ... Marquette announces Buzz Williams as its new head coach.
Taylor asked out of his Marquette commitment eight days before Buzz was named coach, and just hours after Crean left.
Sigh. . . Your memory is faulty, and you're making up "facts" to suit your story.
Bob Hurley said he wanted Taylor to be released from his commitment, but that's not quite the same as Taylor himself asking out of his release. Here's what Hurley was saying on 4/1:
http://njmg.typepad.com/zagsblog/2008/04/taylor-to-ask-f.html (http://njmg.typepad.com/zagsblog/2008/04/taylor-to-ask-f.html)
THE SAME DAY,
Taylor himself was telling people that
"I want to see what coach they bring in. . . . If a coach comes in and changes the style [of play, that would not be something I'd like]. . . . I want to go to Marquette"http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-tyshawn-taylor.html
(http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-tyshawn-taylor.html)
We all know what was going on. Taylor still wanted to come to MU, but Hurley didn't want him to play for Buzz, and was pulling a power play to force his way.
Still, Williams went to meet with Taylor on 4/10. Contrary to your faux "fact" that Taylor requested his release on 4/1, he had
still not officially requested his release.
Prior to the meeting, Taylor indicated that he was still considering Marquette:
"at the same time, I might end up back at Marquette." Taylor informed me that the schools he is considering are "Georgia Tech, Tennessee, Kansas, Florida, . . . and Marquette, of course." http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-bob-hurley-sr-tyshawn-taylor.html (http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-bob-hurley-sr-tyshawn-taylor.html)
And if you don't like the quotes from Taylor, perhaps you'll accept Buzz Williams word:
http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/tags/Tyshawn+Taylor/default.aspx (http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/tags/Tyshawn+Taylor/default.aspx)
"Ty called me all the time, his mom called me all the time, his stepdad called me all the time. I don't know exactly how many days he was released prior to making a decision to go to Kansas, but I was the first person in his life other than his mom to know he was going to Kansas. . . .. So whether or not we were strongly considered, if you gauge it in relation to how many times they called me, maybe. But I don't know."Boy, that doesn't sound like the actions of a guy who cut all ties to MU on 4/1, does it.
As of April 16th, he still had not requested his release, but was expected to (and ultimately did) request his release.
http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/16/mbakwe-staying-taylor-update.aspx (http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/16/mbakwe-staying-taylor-update.aspx)
So the
correct timeline:
4/1: Crean leaves Marquette.
4/1:
Hurley tries to insert himself into the situation, but
Taylor doesn't request a release.
4/8: Buzz named as replacement
4/9: Taylor is quoted as saying Marquette "of course" is still under consideration.
4/10: Buzz goes to meet with Taylor
4/16: Taylor formally requests his release eight days AFTER Buzz is named head coach.
4/16-28: Taylor actively recruited by Buzz--Taylor calls Buzz "all the time." during this period.
4/28: Taylor commits to KU--Buzz is first person other than his mom to be told of the decision.
Now, if Taylor had truly told Buzz on 4/1 that he wasn't coming to MU, why in the world would Taylor be talking to Buzz "all the time", and call Buzz first to tell him that he's going to KU?
Now, knowing these
facts--including quotes from Tyshawn Taylor and Buzz Williams themselves--are you really going to dispute the notion that Buzz did not actively attempt to land Taylor, and that Taylor had no interest in MU after 4/1?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2009, 11:58:53 PM
Ummmm .... no. Because I'm a smart enough guy to know Indiana was placed on probation in November 2008, seven months after Taylor and Christopherson chose to go elsewhere, and three months after Mbakwe did. And that probation was devastating .... no loss of postseason play, the loss of one scholarship for one year and a public reprimand. Gasp! A virtual death penalty.
But you're right ... no way Scott Christopherson or Trevor Mbakwe would want to sit out a year at a school that's on probation. I mean, what fun is it sitting on the bench for a team on probation, as opposed to playing in the exciting world of JUCO or sitting on the bench in Ames, Iowa? I mean, sure, Iowa State wasn't much better than Indiana last year, but at least they weren't on probation.
I think I can shed light on this one as well. While you attempt to belittle Chicos for raising the spectre of IU sanctions, it is EXACTLY the reason Bob Hurley gave as to why Taylor would not follow Crean to IU:
"
Coach Hurley was saying about Taylor and his recruitment, the living legend in the hoops world said that he has "only met the [new] head coach [Buzz Williams] one time," and informing me upon my inquiry about the subject that Taylor won't be following Crean to Indiana due to the possible "NCAA sanctions" that the Hoosiers could be handed."
http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-bob-hurley-sr-tyshawn-taylor.html (http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-bob-hurley-sr-tyshawn-taylor.html)
The fact of the matter is that nobody--not you, not Crean, not any of the recruits--knew in April how serious the sanctions that would follow in November. So it is certainly not implausible that recruits would not follow Crean to IU during the six months before those sanctions were to be handed down.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on December 12, 2009, 08:40:34 PM
even my Badger friends said "you will be a lot better when Acker and Cubillian are replaced with Blue and Cadougan"....
Probably a 3 guard offense (Cadougan, DJO, and Blue)----and Butler with Maymon or Fulce.
Small Ball !
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 14, 2009, 03:30:26 AM
Sigh. . . Your memory is faulty, and you're making up "facts" to suit your story.
Bob Hurley said he wanted Taylor to be released from his commitment, but that's not quite the same as Taylor himself asking out of his release. Here's what Hurley was saying on 4/1:
http://njmg.typepad.com/zagsblog/2008/04/taylor-to-ask-f.html (http://njmg.typepad.com/zagsblog/2008/04/taylor-to-ask-f.html)
THE SAME DAY, Taylor himself was telling people that "I want to see what coach they bring in. . . . If a coach comes in and changes the style [of play, that would not be something I'd like]. . . . I want to go to Marquette"
http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-tyshawn-taylor.html
(http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-tyshawn-taylor.html)
Hmmm .... well, you better tell Todd Rosiak he's got his facts wrong. And apparently he doesn't know how to properly quote someone:
"Spoke with both Tyshawn Taylor and his coach at St. Anthony, the legendary Bob Hurley,
and both said in no uncertain terms on Wednesday morning that Taylor is seeking to be released by MU."
And, from that same article, just to dispel the notion Taylor didn't come to MU because of Buzz:
As far as Taylor, he said it likely would take Williams remaining on the staff in some capacity to come to MU.
"I think the only way I end up at Marquette is if Coach Williams gets the head-coaching job, or if Coach Williams and another one of the assistants is still there," he said. "Coach Williams recruited me and I really want to play for him. I think that's probably the only way."http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/02/taylor-wants-out.aspx
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 08:20:03 AM
Hmmm .... well, you better tell Todd Rosiak he's got his facts wrong. And apparently he doesn't know how to properly quote someone:
"Spoke with both Tyshawn Taylor and his coach at St. Anthony, the legendary Bob Hurley, and both said in no uncertain terms on Wednesday morning that Taylor is seeking to be released by MU."
And, from that same article, just to dispel the notion Taylor didn't come to MU because of Buzz:
As far as Taylor, he said it likely would take Williams remaining on the staff in some capacity to come to MU.
"I think the only way I end up at Marquette is if Coach Williams gets the head-coaching job, or if Coach Williams and another one of the assistants is still there," he said. "Coach Williams recruited me and I really want to play for him. I think that's probably the only way."
http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/02/taylor-wants-out.aspx
But later on Hurley says this:
"Hurley has been outspoken about the situation from the outset, stating that Taylor signed to play for Tom Crean, that he is concerned about Buzz Williams' lack of head-coaching experience and also the number of guards expected to return to the Golden Eagles next season."
http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/16/update-on-taylor-mu.aspx
My opinion is that this was clearly engineered by Hurley. Whether or not he did it for his own interests or truly had Taylor's in mind I don't know. But I think it is clear that Taylor liked Buzz...but Hurley was skeptical.
Quote from: mviale on December 13, 2009, 12:03:45 AM
Can we stop waiting on next year already. These are our warriors, we could have won today despite the slow start.
I agree. Although some of the refs calls were debatable, we missed plenty of free throws and didn't even get shots up on some of the possessions.
so chicos you are still refusing to answer the questions I posed?
Quote from: musarah on December 14, 2009, 08:45:58 AM
didn't even get shots up on some of the possessions.
Between the porous defense and empty possessions we were doomed
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 08:20:03 AM
Hmmm .... well, you better tell Todd Rosiak he's got his facts wrong. And apparently he doesn't know how to properly quote someone:
"Spoke with both Tyshawn Taylor and his coach at St. Anthony, the legendary Bob Hurley, and both said in no uncertain terms on Wednesday morning that Taylor is seeking to be released by MU."
We know based on the facts available that Taylor did not request his release was not filed until 4/16.
It was not filed the evening of 4/1/08 as you claim.
The difference is Rosiak on 4/2/08 did not know the facts in a fluid & changing situation, and was reporting based on a lot of 'heat of the moment' conversation with a coach and player still in shock. No matter what they said on 4/2, the request was not offically submitted by Taylor until 4/16.
Now, Hurley tried to force the issue and submit the paperwork himself--but he cannot do that--the request has to come from the player and signed by a parent.
The sad part is that On 12/14/09, you did know what actually happened, and chose to misrepresent the situation.
Simply put, you were wrong when you said Taylor asked to be released on the evening of 4/1. Perhaps in the heat of the moment he told a reporter that he would. But the truth is that he did not do so until 4/16.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 14, 2009, 03:30:26 AM
We all know what was going on. Taylor still wanted to come to MU, but Hurley didn't want him to play for Buzz, and was pulling a power play to force his way.
Actually, this is not true. Anyone here in Jersey knows that Kansas was always Taylor's school of choice. During recruiting, KU only sniffed, never offered, because they were stacked until a perfect chain of events occurred with them winning the title and all their guards leaving as well as Crean leaving for Indiana.
Once the second shoe dropped with Crean, Taylor was always going to go to Kansas no matter who the new coach was at Marquette whether it be Buzz, Bob McKillop, Brad Brownell, God, Muhammad, or Moses.
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 14, 2009, 09:34:01 AM
Now, Hurley tried to force the issue and submit the paperwork himself--but he cannot do that--the request has to come from the player and signed by a parent.
What we can all agree upon, I feel, is that Coach Hurley is a very bad man. A very conniving man. A very evil man.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 14, 2009, 09:42:15 AM
Moses.
Now wait a minute! If Moses had been named coach at MU Taylor would be in Blue and Gold today. You know, that Promised Land thing?
Quote from: Marquette84 on December 14, 2009, 09:34:01 AM
We know based on the facts available that Taylor did not request his release was not filed until 4/16.
It was not filed the evening of 4/1/08 as you claim.
Why are you obsessed with the date he formally filed the correct paperwork? It's irrelevant. What is relevant is that:
a)
Taylor (not just Hurley, as you claim) made clear within hours of Crean's departure that he wanted out of his commitment.
b) Taylor's decision had little to nothing to do with Buzz Williams, because he himself (again, not Hurley) said Buzz Williams would be the only reason for him to still come to MU at that point.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why you choose to ignore what Taylor himself said. Oh wait, I know ... it contradicts what you're saying.
QuoteThe difference is Rosiak on 4/2/08 did not know the facts in a fluid & changing situation
You cannot be serious. Rosiak did not know the facts????
Rosiak was reporting what Taylor told him. What other facts are you speaking of? Taylor made clear within hours of Crean's departure he wanted out, and he never wavered from that.
QuoteSimply put, you were wrong when you said Taylor asked to be released on the evening of 4/1. Perhaps in the heat of the moment he told a reporter that he would. But the truth is that he did not do so until 4/16.
Is this the best you got? You're going to hang your argument on process and semantics? The fact is, there were numerous attempts by Taylor and his people to file formal requests seeking his release
prior to April 16. Their intent was clear. What was not clear, to them at least, was the process, and that confusion is what delayed matters until April 16.
This line of argument is shameless.
But even following your line of reasoning, what difference does it make? Fine, Tyshawn Taylor did not correctly file the formal paperwork seeking a release from his commitment on immediately after TC's departure. He only made clear through multiple outlets on repeated occasions that that is what he was seeking.
Huge difference.
Of course, you continue to ignore Taylor's statements that he would only come to MU for Buzz. Obviously, you must. It doesn't fit into the claim that he never wanted to play for Buzz.
And you conveniently left out this from a link you posted:
I followed that up by asking the New Jersey star if he would like to see one of the assistants hired, to which he said: "I think that would be nice. . . . I fell in love with those guys. . . . I doubt that any of the assistants would get hired, but it would be nice." He specifically mentioned Brent Williams, the coach that recruited him along with Crean.http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-tyshawn-taylor.html
Yep, sounds like a guy who backed out of his commitment because of Buzz.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 14, 2009, 09:42:15 AM
Actually, this is not true. Anyone here in Jersey knows that Kansas was always Taylor's school of choice. During recruiting, KU only sniffed, never offered, because they were stacked until a perfect chain of events occurred with them winning the title and all their guards leaving as well as Crean leaving for Indiana.
Once the second shoe dropped with Crean, Taylor was always going to go to Kansas no matter who the new coach was at Marquette whether it be Buzz, Bob McKillop, Brad Brownell, God, Muhammad, or Moses.
Thank you.
This is exactly what happened. The kid got a better offer and he took it. It had much less to do with Buzz Williams and Marquette than it did Bill Self and Kansas.
And Taylor's coach ran cover for him, allowing himself to be the bad guy for the sake of his player and, let's face it, it's another feather in his cap to have a kid at Kansas.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 10:55:42 AM
Why are you obsessed with the date he formally filed the correct paperwork? It's irrelevant. What is relevant is that:
a) Taylor (not just Hurley, as you claim) made clear within hours of Crean's departure that he wanted out of his commitment.
b) Taylor's decision had little to nothing to do with Buzz Williams, because he himself (again, not Hurley) said Buzz Williams would be the only reason for him to still come to MU at that point.
The issue here is whether Crean left the cupboard bare. Buzz was able to convince two of four recruits to remain with him (Fulce & Otule), and failed on two others (Taylor and N. Williams). He also failed to retain Mbakwe, Hazel and Christopherson.
Your implication that Buzz never had a chance because Taylor cut ties with MU on 4/1 is false.
Its abundantly clear that Taylor gave Buzz a chance to recruit him, that Buzz tried to do just that--travelling to visit him on 4/10 and speaking with him, his mother and his step dad "all the time", but in the end was unable to seal the deal.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 10:55:42 AM
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why you choose to ignore what Taylor himself said. Oh wait, I know ... it contradicts what you're saying.
I happen to believe that actions speak louder than words--especially in light of conflicting statements.
You are singling out one quote, and pretending that none of the other statements were made.
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why you choose to ignore what Taylor himself actually did, as well his other contradictory quotes.
Oh wait, I know . . .it contradicts what YOU'RE saying.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 10:55:42 AM
You cannot be serious. Rosiak did not know the facts????
Rosiak was reporting what Taylor told him. What other facts are you speaking of? Taylor made clear within hours of Crean's departure he wanted out, and he never wavered from that.
Of course he didn't, because the facts were based on events that had not yet taken place!!!
Rosiak couldn't possibly have known the fact that Taylor would make several contradictory statements after his interview with Rosiak experessing continued interest in MU.
He couldn't possibly have known that Buzz would be named coach, or travel on 4/10 to meet with Taylor, his coach and his family.
He couldn't possibly have known that Taylor would not ultimately request a release until 4/16.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 10:55:42 AM
and he never wavered from that.
Yes he did. You just choose to ignore those statements because, well, it contradicts what you're saying.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 10:55:42 AM
You're going to hang your argument on process and semantics? The fact is, there were numerous attempts by Taylor and his people to file formal requests seeking his release prior to April 16. Their intent was clear. What was not clear, to them at least, was the process, and that confusion is what delayed matters until April 16.
Here is the form--it's pretty simple:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e9d8b7004e0dc6e094f2f41ad6fc8b25/Release+Request+Form+9.24.08).pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e9d8b7004e0dc6e094f2f41ad6fc8b25
(http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/e9d8b7004e0dc6e094f2f41ad6fc8b25/Release+Request+Form+9.24.08).pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=e9d8b7004e0dc6e094f2f41ad6fc8b25)
It took me about 10 seconds to find this online. I can't imagine it would take Bob Hurley more than 30 seconds to tell Tyshawn that he had to fill it out and get a parent to sign it.
But I guess you're going to hang your hat on the fact that it took
15 days for Tyshawn and his coach to figure out how to complete this simple form.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 10:55:42 AM
But even following your line of reasoning, what difference does it make? Fine, Tyshawn Taylor did not correctly file the formal paperwork seeking a release from his commitment on immediately after TC's departure. He only made clear through multiple outlets on repeated occasions that that is what he was seeking.
Huge difference.
Again, actions speak louder than words-- especially when the words contradict themselves from one day to the next.
When you look at the release form, you cannot possibly believe that it is so complex that it required two weeks to complete.
So yes, there is a huge difference between a comment made in the heat of the moment, and a two week process of actions and words that contradict that one statement.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 11:16:49 AM
Thank you.
This is exactly what happened. The kid got a better offer and he took it. It had much less to do with Buzz Williams and Marquette than it did Bill Self and Kansas.
And Taylor's coach ran cover for him, allowing himself to be the bad guy for the sake of his player and, let's face it, it's another feather in his cap to have a kid at Kansas.
You know it, I know it, Avalance knows it. Basically everyone but 84 and Chicos knows it. Seems to happen with an alarming frequency.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2009, 06:46:42 PM
You know it, I know it, Avalance knows it. Basically everyone but 84 and Chicos knows it. Seems to happen with an alarming frequency.
Excuse me, where did ANYONE say he didn't get a great offer from Kansas? No one said otherwise. What happens with alarming frequency, however, is your inability to correctly state those facts. Someone, Pakuni or someone said he didn't want to play for Marquette.
This is patently WRONG. The kid
SIGNED to play at Marquette, so to say he didn't want to play is just wrong. The issue is
who he wanted to play for. He wanted to play for Crean AT MARQUETTE, not Buzz AT MARQUETTE, not Crean AT INDIANA. When Crean left, that certainly opened the door for him, no one has said otherwise.
Buzz tried to get him to stay, but the kid didn't want to play for Buzz nor did his high school coach want him to play for Buzz. Can you blame him? Buzz was totally unknown, had no history worth crowing about as a DI head coach, would you put your potential NBA talents in his hands at that stage of your life? Some would, he chose not to.
But that didn't stop Buzz from trying to get him to come to MU and it certainly didn't stop TT from taking Buzz's calls and visits, did it?
Quote from: Pakuni on December 14, 2009, 12:09:07 AM
SC's first six games: 22.8 minutes, 6.7 attempts, 10.2 points
SC's last four games: 19.8 minutes, 2.5 attempts, 4.0 points.
Nope, nothing to see here.
Yup, he's gone down a whole 3 minutes per game....damn, he's nearly riding the bench. ::) The coach is so disillusioned with him now, he's only playing 50% of the game instead of 57%. You crack me up.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 13, 2009, 11:58:53 PM
Sigh ... let's go over this very slowly, Chico's.
Afternoon of April 1, 2008 ... TC leaves Marquette for Indiana.
Evening of April 1, 2008 ... Tyshawn Taylor asks out of his commitment.
April 9, 2008 ... Marquette announces Buzz Williams as its new head coach.
Taylor asked out of his Marquette commitment eight days before Buzz was named coach, and just hours after Crean left.
Now, knowing these facts are you really going to stand by this notion that the reason Tyshawn Taylor isn't at Marquette is because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams? Did he somehow know just hours afterwards that Buzz was going to be named the next coach?
Then why did Taylor ask out of his commitment even before he knew who the coach would be?
Call it nonsense all you like, but the facts are the facts.
Ummmm .... no. Because I'm a smart enough guy to know Indiana was placed on probation in November 2008, seven months after Taylor and Christopherson chose to go elsewhere, and three months after Mbakwe did. And that probation was devastating .... no loss of postseason play, the loss of one scholarship for one year and a public reprimand. Gasp! A virtual death penalty.
But you're right ... no way Scott Christopherson or Trevor Mbakwe would want to sit out a year at a school that's on probation. I mean, what fun is it sitting on the bench for a team on probation, as opposed to playing in the exciting world of JUCO or sitting on the bench in Ames, Iowa? I mean, sure, Iowa State wasn't much better than Indiana last year, but at least they weren't on probation.
Of course, Nick Williams didn't mind so much. Until he was shown the door, that is.
Please, get your facts straight.
From Tyshawn Taylor Q&A in Zags blog, April 10, 2008:
Q: What kind of relationship do you have with Coach Williams?
A: He recruited me. I had a better relationship with him than with Coach Crean.
"Q: What are you concerned about at Marquette going forward?
A: I want to know how many minutes I would play this year. They have a lot of guards. I know three of them are going to be seniors, Jerel McNeal, Wesley Matthew, and Dominic James. David Cubilllan and Maurice Acker are on the bench. That's five guards. Nick Williams asked for his released before we knew who the coach was going to be. That's six guards not including me."
Yeah, it's naive and silly to deal with facts. Much better to make up stuff about Indiana being on probation when those kids decided not to go there or how Tyshawn Taylor never knew Buzz Williams.
I'd go into it line by line the areas you "forgot" to mention, but 84 did a great job so no need to do it again. Your timelines conveniently left out a lot, go figure.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on December 13, 2009, 10:10:14 AM
chicos i cannot disagree with you on the kids that left. but that really has nothing to do with the fact of why is Crean offering scholarships to Acker and Cubes and chrsitopherson another one who left.
Simple yes or no question...are Acker and Cubes big east caliber players?
another simple yes or no questions... from waht you have seen since 4/8/2008. would Buzz Williams have offered those two guys? (acker and cubes)?
Sorry that I skipped over your question...I do not think he would offer Acker or Cubes. They are not the type of players that Buzz seems to like. On the other hand, there was a reason MU took Acker. He was recommended by Jerel McNeal and Tim Buckley. I'm glad we have him this year or we would be even more screwed. Sometimes you have to recruit a few kids for cohesiveness that are willing to be practice players or spot players, not everyone can be a 4 or 5 star recruit IMO
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 15, 2009, 01:06:57 PM
Sorry that I skipped over your question...I do not think he would offer Acker or Cubes. They are not the type of players that Buzz seems to like. On the other hand, there was a reason MU took Acker. He was recommended by Jerel McNeal and Tim Buckley. I'm glad we have him this year or we would be even more screwed. Sometimes you have to recruit a few kids for cohesiveness that are willing to be practice players or spot players, not everyone can be a 4 or 5 star recruit IMO
Buzz actually did offer Acker and Cubillan. Twice each. Scholarships are renewable. Buzz chose to renew both their scholarships for both 08-09 and 09-10. Compare those actions to Roseboro.